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View Full Version : You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2



Unclebuck
10-14-2006, 10:51 PM
I don't know if I should come right out and say this, most of you will either disagree with me or just won't want to hear it especially after a meaningless preseason game. Do I really want to bring the wrath of Pacers Digest down on me. I've really thought about it, and I'm just going to go ahead and say it.

Our point guards aren't very good, and by that I mean Tinsley and Saras. If that is our one-two punch at point guard this season I will have a huge problem with this Pacers team. Saras is just terrible, I really don't need to say anything else about that, this has been discussed to death. I really don't see any reason he should even play at all. If I were the coach he'd never get off the bench.

Enough of Saras, let me address Tinsley. First of all when did Deron Williams become Magic, Isiah, Stockton and KJ all rolled into one. He could have scored whenever he wanted (granted our help defense was terrible) but Tinsley had no chance in trying to stop Williams and Deron isn't even a top 10 point guard or top 15 point guard.

I think all of Tinsley's injuries have clouded our memory of him as a player. Players always get better in fans minds as they sit on the bench. Tinsley wasn't even the 3rd best point guard on the court tonight. He certainly wasn't the Pacers best point guard tonight. It is pretty sad when the Pacers best point guard is a 38 year old journeyman. If Darrell Armstrong was a few years younger I would want him to start, I would want him to play 30-35 minutes per game.

It was such a breath of fresh air to see Armstrong tonight. His hustle, his defense but most of all his leadership was evident tonight. Tinsley gives you none of those three things. (yes my "clean slate" is no longer clean).

I expect to get crucified for this posts, and yes I know it is only preaseason, but I got disgusted watching Saras and Tinsley tonight. Is there a worse point guard combo in the NBA. I don't know. I expect Rick to rectify the situation, Saras will not be the second string point guard, you can mark my words on that. I

The more I see Armstrong, Greene and Daniels play the point this season the happier I'll be.

OK, let me get to other things tonight

The other area that is a concern to me is rebounding, more specially defensive rebounding, the Jazz really manhandled us in that area. The Jazz were the number 1 rebounding team in the NBA last season so maybe we should expect that. I don't see the Pacers anything more than an average rebbounding team, but maybe that is good enough.

Let me make a few other quick observations.

It was really nice walking into Conseco Fieldhouse tonight, I felt like I was home again. There were more people there than I thought there would be, and the boos for Jackson were tepid at best. When he first came into the game, there was hardly anything, even after two straight turnovers and a bad shot, there was still nothing. The other two times he came into the game, there were some boos for sure, but it wasn't much to speak of. Jax played a really tentative game though.

Let me get to the Pacers defense, besides the embaraasement that was the defense played by JT and Saras, the Pacers D was OK, the defense is more aggressive on the ball and in passing lanes than they have been the past few seasons (of course with that you give up some inside shots and you give up some penetration) maybe that is why JT and Saras stood out. Pacers will create more turnovers this season and that is good.

Maybe Tinsley and Saras just can't play the pressure defense the Pacers are trying to get them to play. But defense wasn't the only problem with those two, they weren't very good on the offensive end either.

I give the Jazz and jerry Sloan a ton of credit. Their halfcourt offensive system is fun to watch, they set picks, they pass the ball, they are in constant motion, and their defense is very physical - Sloan is a great coach.

I was impressed with Al tonight, he was extremely aggressive and was obviously the Pacers best player on the court tonight, in a lot of ways it seems like he never left the Pacers and yet he is a better player.

Granger was good in spots, he tends to get lost at times when JO and Al are out there.

I guess that is about it. Why couldn't Armstrong be 5 years.

Should I just delete this post and make my life easier?

Destined4Greatness
10-14-2006, 11:03 PM
For every game that tinsley has where he *removed* he is spectacular in two. But yeah Runi does *removed*.

Well its preseason, the other guys are playing for their lives. Tins knows he is in the clear.

Ragnar
10-14-2006, 11:16 PM
I agree on Runi and I agree that JT had a bad game. I also agree that this was a meaningless pre season game.

Evan_The_Dude
10-14-2006, 11:18 PM
I agree with all of your points. Saras is absolutely terrible. I really had it with him when he was baby stepping/backing the ball up against Dee Brown and then got picked any damn way. Horrible ball handler, and not an NBA caliber player AT ALL. Tinsley had an off game, but he did deflect the ball a lot of times and each time it lead to a turnover for our defense.

I've always loved Sloan's coaching style. During warmups I was telling a guy next to me "If we're not careful, Sloans team will run a basketball clinic on us.", and that's pretty much what they did offensively. I think Sloan is the best coach in the NBA because of his ability to get his team all on one page and make everybody look like the same player. No one person ever really stands out, they just come as a team, play as a team, and leave as a team, no BS in between. Doesn't matter who's playing for him, he can always find a way to make their strengths bring out the best in the team.

I mentioned it in another thread and I'll say it again... Regardless of how JO's numbers look on paper I don't think it told the whole story about just how ugly the game he had tonight was. I never thought I'd say this, but Al Harrington looks like a way better player out there than JO, BY FAR. Al doesn't force anything and plays within his ability which he has a lot of. JO seemed to have a lot of Erick Dampier moments out there. I actually would like to see JO not worry about being the #1 guy, and just let the game come to him. We have plenty of guys that can lead this team in scoring on any given night. He just needs to do the things we need him do, like some dirty work.

bnd45
10-14-2006, 11:19 PM
UB summed it up pretty good. Tinsley's game goes straight to the crapper when he's getting torched on D. (So whenever an aggressive PG plays us, look out) We need him to play well badly this season. Sarunas struggled again and at this point Armstrong may be the better option as the #2 PG.

Overall our guard play was bad, but we were missing Daniels and it was Jack's first game. However, our lack of outside shooting is going to be an issue all season though.

Al and JO got their points, but that is to be expected. Our boys have a long way to go. Keep the faith.

LG33
10-14-2006, 11:21 PM
Speedy Claxton and Tyronne Lue from Atlanta? Are they worse?
What about Rafer "Skip to My Lou" Alston and John Lucas III on Houston?
Toronto, Milwaukee, and Portland aren't sitting pretty either IMO.

sweabs
10-14-2006, 11:22 PM
Yes, yes, and yes. I'm still willing to give Jamaal a chance, but I surely hope 3 names don't come to haunt us in the next few years:

Rajon Rondo (21st).
Marcus Williams (22nd).
Dee Brown (46th).

All after our picks. I'm sure Kegboy will throw in a couple other names too.

avoidingtheclowns
10-14-2006, 11:23 PM
i haven't been as active on the site in the last month or so... so forgive me if this is a really stupid question: who the hell is Sean Lampley? and why do we have a new player if we already were needing to cut 3?

speakout4
10-14-2006, 11:24 PM
I don't know if I should come right out and say this, most of you will either disagree with me or just won't want to hear it especially after a meaningless preseason game. Do I really want to bring the wrath of Pacers Digest down on me. I've really thought about it, and I'm just going to go ahead and say it.

Our point guards suck, and by that I mean Tinsley and Saras. If that is our one-two punch at point guard this season I will have a huge problem with this Pacers team. Saras is just terrible, I really don't need to say anything else about that, this has been discussed to death. I really don't see any reason he should even play at all. If I were the coach he'd never get off the bench.

Enough of Saras, let me address Tinsley. First of all when did Deron Williams become Magic, Isiah, Stockton and KJ all rolled into one. He could have scored whenever he wanted (granted our help defense was terrible) but Tinsley had no chance in trying to stop Williams and Deron isn't even a top 10 point guard or top 15 point guard.

I think all of Tinsley's injuries have clouded our memory of him as a player. Players always get better in fans minds as they sit on the bench. Tinsley wasn't even the 3rd best point guard on the court tonight. He certainly wasn't the Pacers best point guard tonight. It is pretty sad when the Pacers best point guard is a 38 year old journeyman. If Darrell Armstrong was a few years younger I would want him to start, I would want him to play 30-35 minutes per game.

It was such a breath of fresh air to see Armstrong tonight. His hustle, his defense but most of all his leadership was evident tonight. Tinsley gives you none of those three things. (yes my "clean slate" is no longer clean).

I expect to get crucified for this posts, and yes I know it is only preaseason, but I got disgusted watching Saras and Tinsley tonight. Is there a worse point guard combo in the NBA. I don't know. I expect Rick to rectify the situation, Saras will not be the second string point guard, you can mark my words on that. I

The more I see Armstrong, Greene and Daniels play the point this season the happier I'll be.

OK, let me get to other things tonight

The other area that is a concern to me is rebounding, more specially defensive rebounding, the Jazz really manhandled us in that area. The Jazz were the number 1 rebounding team in the NBA last season so maybe we should expect that. I don't see the Pacers anything more than an average rebbounding team, but maybe that is good enough.

Let me make a few other quick observations.

It was really nice walking into Conseco Fieldhouse tonight, I felt like I was home again. There were more people there than I thought there would be, and the boos for Jackson were tepid at best. When he first came into the game, there was hardly anything, even after two straight turnovers and a bad shot, there was still nothing. The other two times he came into the game, there were some boos for sure, but it wasn't much to speak of. Jax played a really tentative game though.

Let me get to the Pacers defense, besides the embaraasement that was the defense played by JT and Saras, the Pacers D was OK, the defense is more aggressive on the ball and in passing lanes than they have been the past few seasons (of course with that you give up some inside shots and you give up some penetration) maybe that is why JT and Saras stood out. Pacers will create more turnovers this season and that is good.

Maybe Tinsley and Saras just can't play the pressure defense the Pacers are trying to get them to play. But defense wasn't the only problem with those two, they weren't very good on the offensive end either.

I give the Jazz and jerry Sloan a ton of credit. Their halfcourt offensive system is fun to watch, they set picks, they pass the ball, they are in constant motion, and their defense is very physical - Sloan is a great coach.

I was impressed with Al tonight, he was extremely aggressive and was obviously the Pacers best player on the court tonight, in a lot of ways it seems like he never left the Pacers and yet he is a better player.

Granger was good in spots, he tends to get lost at times when JO and Al are out there.

I guess that is about it. Why couldn't Armstrong be 5 years.

Should I just delete this post and make my life easier?

I just heard the first half on radio and just bits of the second half. Tinsley if he doesn't swipe the ball doesn't play a lot of defense and you are correct that his ability is inversely proportional to the number of games he plays. At the beginning of the game boyle said that Tinsley just got out of William's way as he went to the basket. This is why the pacers can't afford to cut Greene or Hunter just yet. That said I am more concened that the pacers do not have a reliable perimeter 3 point shooter for the first time in a long time. Reggie and Peja could do that but who else is going to stretch the defense?

Frank Slade
10-14-2006, 11:36 PM
Harrington looked ok but a few times I thought Al forced his shots , outside of the flow. I was glad to see Harrison take a charge and hustle .

I really enjoy watching DA on the court or even on the sidelines encouraging all the guys when they return to the bench or after a good play. I have a feeling he is going to be one of the fan favorties rather quickly.

The part about Granger I agree with to some extent. As the season progesses will there be enough shots for the frontcourt? Does Granger's game really not thrive on having as many looks as JO or Al ?

What about Daniels playing the 2 on defense, and Granger playing the 2 on offense ? :duck:

DisplacedKnick
10-14-2006, 11:44 PM
Well, when you traded AJ you pretty much guaranteed the lottery if Tinsley's injury history from the last 3 games holds up IMO. Armstrong's a 15mpg guy at this point of his career.

I didn't see tonight's game so I can't comment on Tinsley tonight but he always has been pretty decent at running the offense and while his defense isn't great, it's been good enough the past couple of years where good rotations have made it much less of a liability than it used to be.

But to this day I don't understand the AJ trade. If you'd drafted Marcus Williams it would have made sense.

BlueNGold
10-14-2006, 11:44 PM
Tinsley played horrible, but I am no more concerned than I was before this game. Saras has proven he cannot play PG but for spot minutes. These are the reasons I want Greene and Armstrong retained.

If Tinsley cannot handle defending a particular player, put Greene on him. BTW, Deron Williams is no superstar but he is a big, strong PG who simply overpowered our guards. He has 25 lbs on Tinman (who is not particularly physical anyway) and even more on Armstrong. So, Greene or Quis may have to play a role in these instances.

Not a perfect situation...but it is what it is.

croz24
10-15-2006, 12:22 AM
and it's still a preseason game...

Trader Joe
10-15-2006, 12:22 AM
And Tinsley and Sarunas were very good against the Nets so, its a meaningless preseason game. Lets wait for the reg season to cast judgement UB.

ajbry
10-15-2006, 12:32 AM
If we keep Orien, I'm satisfied with the PG situation.

Saras is just awful, there's no possible way to disagree with that. I really hope DA pushes him to the back, as I know Orien will.

The order of PGs (# of minutes) should be: Jamaal, Orien, DA, and Saras.

I just really hope Rick gives Orien and DA a good portion of the backup minutes, I'm very confident in their abilities, especially when compared to Saras. Even if Tins goes down with an injury, I wouldn't be worried at all with Orien as starter.

Pacesetter
10-15-2006, 01:06 AM
I agree, Sarunas is way off the pace, and probably would be relegated to the bench if Orien Greene stays.

I figure Sarunas just can't handle the rigors of the NBA, but maybe the craziness of last year with the Pacers makes him wish he signed with Cleveland?!?!?!

Jermaniac
10-15-2006, 01:19 AM
I'm not suprised at all that Sarunas played bad, he just isnt a NBA point guard, I dont know what to say to all of his followers, maybe with the Suns he would be where they dont play defense but not here.

I said this and I wasnt hating on him at all when I said it, I would not be suprised at all if 10 games into the season he is sitting on the bench as the 3rd string PG.

Tins always has those few games where he plays bad, but you know Tins will come back the next one and play good. As long as he is healthy I'm not worried about Jamaal.

ajbry
10-15-2006, 01:22 AM
I would not be suprised at all if 10 games into the season he is sitting on the bench as the 3rd string PG.

Agreed. He could be 4th very shortly after that.

Anthem
10-15-2006, 01:48 AM
Agreed. He could be 4th very shortly after that.
Or fifth. Tinsley/Armstrong/Daniels/Greene/Saras

Saras and Marshall works for MoPete...

Just
10-15-2006, 01:49 AM
I've decided that Jackson, Jeff, and Saras should have been traded in the offseason for one player.

Anthem
10-15-2006, 01:55 AM
I've decided that Jackson, Jeff, and Saras should have been traded in the offseason for one player.
And lose our depth? :banned:

Seriously, I agree. Not sure what we could have gotten, but we should have tried.

rexnom
10-15-2006, 02:12 AM
Yes, yes, and yes. I'm still willing to give Jamaal a chance, but I surely hope 3 names don't come to haunt us in the next few years:

Rajon Rondo (21st).
Marcus Williams (22nd).
Dee Brown (46th).

All after our picks. I'm sure Kegboy will throw in a couple other names too.
What about Jordan Farmar? I hear he's doing great in LA.

Peck
10-15-2006, 02:31 AM
I don't know if I should come right out and say this, most of you will either disagree with me or just won't want to hear it especially after a meaningless preseason game. Do I really want to bring the wrath of Pacers Digest down on me. I've really thought about it, and I'm just going to go ahead and say it.

Our point guards suck, and by that I mean Tinsley and Saras. If that is our one-two punch at point guard this season I will have a huge problem with this Pacers team. Saras is just terrible, I really don't need to say anything else about that, this has been discussed to death. I really don't see any reason he should even play at all. If I were the coach he'd never get off the bench.

Enough of Saras, let me address Tinsley. First of all when did Deron Williams become Magic, Isiah, Stockton and KJ all rolled into one. He could have scored whenever he wanted (granted our help defense was terrible) but Tinsley had no chance in trying to stop Williams and Deron isn't even a top 10 point guard or top 15 point guard.

I think all of Tinsley's injuries have clouded our memory of him as a player. Players always get better in fans minds as they sit on the bench. Tinsley wasn't even the 3rd best point guard on the court tonight. He certainly wasn't the Pacers best point guard tonight. It is pretty sad when the Pacers best point guard is a 38 year old journeyman. If Darrell Armstrong was a few years younger I would want him to start, I would want him to play 30-35 minutes per game.

It was such a breath of fresh air to see Armstrong tonight. His hustle, his defense but most of all his leadership was evident tonight. Tinsley gives you none of those three things. (yes my "clean slate" is no longer clean).

I expect to get crucified for this posts, and yes I know it is only preaseason, but I got disgusted watching Saras and Tinsley tonight. Is there a worse point guard combo in the NBA. I don't know. I expect Rick to rectify the situation, Saras will not be the second string point guard, you can mark my words on that. I

The more I see Armstrong, Greene and Daniels play the point this season the happier I'll be.

OK, let me get to other things tonight

The other area that is a concern to me is rebounding, more specially defensive rebounding, the Jazz really manhandled us in that area. The Jazz were the number 1 rebounding team in the NBA last season so maybe we should expect that. I don't see the Pacers anything more than an average rebbounding team, but maybe that is good enough.

Let me make a few other quick observations.

It was really nice walking into Conseco Fieldhouse tonight, I felt like I was home again. There were more people there than I thought there would be, and the boos for Jackson were tepid at best. When he first came into the game, there was hardly anything, even after two straight turnovers and a bad shot, there was still nothing. The other two times he came into the game, there were some boos for sure, but it wasn't much to speak of. Jax played a really tentative game though.

Let me get to the Pacers defense, besides the embaraasement that was the defense played by JT and Saras, the Pacers D was OK, the defense is more aggressive on the ball and in passing lanes than they have been the past few seasons (of course with that you give up some inside shots and you give up some penetration) maybe that is why JT and Saras stood out. Pacers will create more turnovers this season and that is good.

Maybe Tinsley and Saras just can't play the pressure defense the Pacers are trying to get them to play. But defense wasn't the only problem with those two, they weren't very good on the offensive end either.

I give the Jazz and jerry Sloan a ton of credit. Their halfcourt offensive system is fun to watch, they set picks, they pass the ball, they are in constant motion, and their defense is very physical - Sloan is a great coach.

I was impressed with Al tonight, he was extremely aggressive and was obviously the Pacers best player on the court tonight, in a lot of ways it seems like he never left the Pacers and yet he is a better player.

Granger was good in spots, he tends to get lost at times when JO and Al are out there.

I guess that is about it. Why couldn't Armstrong be 5 years.

Should I just delete this post and make my life easier?


I tried my best to stay positive after game 1 in the pre-season & look for mostly good stuff because of the way the season had already started & in all honesty there was not a whole lot of bad to report.

However if you go back & look at my report I really glossed over the p.g. spot other than O. Greene.

Why? Because my report would have read almost word for word like yours just did, including the fact that I intentionally left out Armstrong because I would have said exactly what you did. The fact that he is our best p.g. at the moment scares the living crap out of me. Now Greene looks to be somebody who can be servicable but he is not a star in waiting.

Jamaal was just flat in that first game from what I saw & Saras was just plain old Saras. He was good in a fast break & he can direct a man towards the basket but other than that......

Good report btw, but p.g. is now my biggest concern. Which is funny because center has been my biggest concern for years & we've really not done much to improve that. But our p.g. situation has deteriorated IMO.

rexnom
10-15-2006, 03:19 AM
I tried my best to stay positive after game 1 in the pre-season & look for mostly good stuff because of the way the season had already started & in all honesty there was not a whole lot of bad to report.

However if you go back & look at my report I really glossed over the p.g. spot other than O. Greene.

Why? Because my report would have read almost word for word like yours just did, including the fact that I intentionally left out Armstrong because I would have said exactly what you did. The fact that he is our best p.g. at the moment scares the living crap out of me. Now Greene looks to be somebody who can be servicable but he is not a star in waiting.

Jamaal was just flat in that first game from what I saw & Saras was just plain old Saras. He was good in a fast break & he can direct a man towards the basket but other than that......

Good report btw, but p.g. is now my biggest concern. Which is funny because center has been my biggest concern for years & we've really not done much to improve that. But our p.g. situation has deteriorated IMO.
This is semi-shocking because I expected Jamaal to be kind of good. He usually is when he plays. It'll be interesting to see. I still think we're judging them too quickly here but we'll see.

I do agree with UB on the rebounding though. Danny al-Jermaine combined for 10 rebounds and to be honest, I think Danny's going to get lost with JO and Al. I think a move to the bench might not be the worst thing ever for him. Also, adding Jeff to the starting lineup would certainly help rebounding-wise.

#31
10-15-2006, 06:18 AM
You know UncleBuck, its hard to have a conversation with you because you say stuff everyday that im thinking of and i cant do nothing but saying "I agree!"... so here it goes again...... I agree with you UB! :)

aero
10-15-2006, 06:48 AM
its one preseason game people, it could have been one of many factors..rick could have been testing some new stuff/ the players were distracted by Jack...media etc

Sure it wasnt the best playing, but im not gonna rush to judge..after all its the preaseason. I will say this thought they do need to play alot better or PGs didnt play good at all and thats unacceptable.

hoopsforlife
10-15-2006, 08:20 AM
My wife, Pizza Guy and I attended the game last night and enjoyed the experience. However, the game was poorly played. There were too many fouls called which did not allow the Pacers to get into any kind of rythm or flow.

Steve Jackson was booed just one time that meant anything. The others were halfhearted efforts. Probably brought on by a poorly played, boring excuse for a ball game. I thought it was fitting the first time Jax got the ball he threw it away. Sort of like his career at this point.

I was dissapointed in the over all effort through the first three quarters. If AL had not connected well from the line we would have lost by 20+.

Armstrong was good in the fourth quarter. At least he tried.

I was hoping to see Baston play but he didn't. (sore foot)

Is JO one of the most over hyped, over paid players in the league? I thought so tonight. Being it was his first game back plus it being Jacksons first game back probably accounts for the awful flow of the game. It just never seemed to get going. The crowd wanted to get into it but there was nothing to get into. Tinsley seemed lethargic, Danny was OK but there was a total lack of all out effort tonight.

Sarunas couldn't get anything going either. The ball just does not move around enough to take advantage of his talents. Especially when Jax and JO are in there. David developed an attitude, got a tech and sat out for the last quarter or more. I was hoping he had matured some over the summer. Oh well.

There was speed, quickness, energy and effort shown on the floor tonight, unfortunately, it was all from the Utah Jazz.

The announced crowd was around 12500 but it seemed to lack even that number. Lots of empty seats. It was just a preseason game so it has to get better. right?

All in all, I came away from the game feeling flat. Not excited and not totally depressed, just flat.

It has to get better.

aceace
10-15-2006, 09:50 AM
UB, I agree about Saras! He can't handle the ball, couldn't last year and from what i've read evidently hew has not improved over the summer. Deron Williams was the 2nd best PG in the draft last year and will be a great player in the years to come. He was tough at Illinois and I expected him to be solid in the NBA. So don't take Deron so litely. Jamal prob. fired up a blunt on the way to the game... its a preseason game you know? Armstrong was brought in as a safety blanket. The guy can handle the ball, not a big scorer but a good dish man. I could see Armstrong playing some minutes this year. I wouldn't put so much in this preseason game. We have 18-19 guys on this team and some of them won't play a single minute this year for the P's. I want to evaluate this team after our final roster is set and we've had a chance to play 4-5 games.

aero
10-15-2006, 10:16 AM
yeah if people are gonna bash runi they can take it elsewhere...people need to really stop trying to blame him its not his fault.

ajbry
10-15-2006, 10:43 AM
People have every right to blame Saras - our "prized" free agent acquisition of last offseason has done absolutely nothing to help this team. There's really no possible way we can let him off the hook, he has flat-out *removed*

Seed
10-15-2006, 10:55 AM
This forum reverts sometimes to mass hysteria.
The season hasn't begun yet, it's early training camp for crying out loud. get a grip!

Just
10-15-2006, 10:58 AM
I actually think our PG spot will be acceptable/good once Saras is benched, which is almost inevitable. Tins is usually good, and Greene/DA/Quis will bring pressure D off the bench.

MagicRat
10-15-2006, 11:04 AM
Don't overreact to one preseason game.

Second line......

Hicks
10-15-2006, 11:17 AM
And Tinsley and Sarunas were very good against the Nets so, its a meaningless preseason game. Lets wait for the reg season to cast judgement UB.

Exactly. There's nothing more to say really. This is ridiculous.

And now is as good of a time as any to remind everyone about one of our rules:



4. No Verbal Attacks on any Players, Coaches, Staff, Management, or Owners.

Posts like this are not acceptable and will be removed when seen. This is the difference between saying something similar to "Player X sucks" and discussing the weaknesses of said player. It includes "*Person X* is a *insert rude/crude term or phrase here*". This also includes playing with the names of these people to insult them such as "Jasisuckavic" in place of "Jasikevicius", "Jackasson" in place of "Jackson", or "Prick Carlisle". We have no issue with criticizing the players or anyone else involved, but it can not be rude or childish name-calling or anything in that neighborhood.

Calgary Jazz
10-15-2006, 11:38 AM
I Deron isn't even a top 10 point guard or top 15 point guard.


Based on his dedication, shape and confidence level he will be in top 10 this season if not in top 5.

Jermaniac
10-15-2006, 11:42 AM
yeah if people are gonna bash runi they can take it elsewhere...people need to really stop trying to blame him its not his fault.Whos fault is that he cant play good? Is it our fault? I wish he was the best player in the NBA but he isnt, and he is not a NBA player. Why everyone drools over this guy and pretends that he is going to become John Stockton for us is beyond me.

Naptown_Seth
10-15-2006, 11:48 AM
This is why the pacers can't afford to cut Greene or Hunter just yet.
You can still cut Hunter because his defense is on par with Cabbages.

I do agree that it's becoming clear that Greene has to stay. He and Marshall seem the most on the bubble to me, but the need for Greene coupled with any more just okay outings by Marshall really put OG in a good spot. At this point based on Walsh's comments after the broken finger, it seems certain that Greene is staying.

I didn't get to see the Utah game, but based on the recaps, the box score and what I saw from him in game 1 and FanJam, he's a big problem. Nothing has changed - great vision, strong passer, nothing else. Doesn't look like it's enough.

Tinsley I agree is mostly a get the steal or nothing type of defender, but at least that steal is in the mix...and he won't give the ball up just on pressure. I'd rather have a PG with 5 TOs that all came from aggressive passes that didn't work, because at least it was an offensive chance and his teammates know the ball can be coming at any time. Plus he only took 3 shots so it's not like he forces his own offense.

IMO Tinsley looked rusty in game 1.



One issue with the defense is that to me I see a lot of aggressive rotations, long before PnR switches and stuff like that. They appear to be trying to read ahead on plays and put themselves in front of the offense. That's going to be very effective when it's done right, but it also means guys are going to be asked to make a lot of tough reads. So that might sputter along in the early going with fits and starts of good and bad nights.


To me the strongest sign about the new offense was a 2nd game of only EIGHT 3PA! That's insanely low compared to the amount they've been jacking up the last 2 years. Jack only took 1 himself. Add to it JO and Al getting to the FT line 31 times and that's a very good indicator of their desire to attack the basket.

The FG% was low, and Jack's 1-6 didn't help, but there was a lot to Hunter-Powell-Williams-SarJas going 1-16 that hurt too. That same group went 0-4 from 3, 0-5 if you add in Jack. The reality is that Jack saw almost a normal game of playing time and looks in the new system (IMO) and put up one of his low-end efforts which had to be affected a little by circumstances.

The good news is that the other reality is that Hunter won't be with the team missing those shots, and Williams will be unlikely to get off the bench this season. Even Powell will be pretty deep in the rotation, so the 38 minutes from those 3 will be playing time going to Foster, Harrison and Daniels instead.

And if SarJas keeps playing like this he WILL end up behind Armstrong (and Greene when he returns) so his minutes will either be more effective or non-existant.

I don't think the team has serious concerns actually. This is a year for guys like Williams, Powell, maybe Marshall if he makes it, to learn to play at a higher level. The main core of minutes will go to guys that can get it done and have shown that...yes, even Tinsley.

A lot of what we are doing which I mentioned after game 1 even is looking at guys that are playing for spots 11-15 on the team, which is not in the regular rotation.



Deron Williams is supposed to be top 15 this year I think. A lot of people expect him to be moving toward elite PG status. That was no hack out on the court.

Calgary Jazz
10-15-2006, 11:55 AM
Whos fault is that he cant play good? Is it our fault? I wish he was the best player in the NBA but he isnt, and he is not a NBA player. Why everyone drools over this guy and pretends that he is going to become John Stockton for us is beyond me.

He chose the wrong team where his abilities are not utilized properly. Thats the price he payed last season, it looks like he is going to sit a lot this season as well, and next season he might, just maybe return to Tel Aviv, where he had his reigns and was worshiped by all fans and media, etc.

ABADays
10-15-2006, 12:32 PM
For every game that tinsley has where he *removed* he is spectacular in two. But yeah Runi does *removed*.

Well its preseason, the other guys are playing for their lives. Tins knows he is in the clear.

Sorry, but if last year was any indication for every game Tinsley played - he was spectacularly on the bench the next two.

Los Angeles
10-15-2006, 12:34 PM
OK, I watched the same games that everyone else did. I thought that both Tinsley and Sarunas performed quite well in Preseason Game 1.

With these major exceptions: Tinsley has not demonstrated the defense that I remember from him. He's a liability there that I don't remember.

Sarunas is absolutely terrible as a shooting guard, and a complete black hole when he catches the ball on the wing. If the team passes him the ball on the wing he shoots it every time. Combine that with his horrendous percentage on the wing and the problem is even worse.

BUT - both guys were really good playmakers in game one, which I consider the #1 responsibility of the point guard position.

It's absolutly ridiculous that both Tinsley and Saras are on the floor at the same time. I don't have the stats, but my guess is that our team goes in the hole when they are on the floor together.

Saras is incapable of playing the 2. I think Rick is the only one that doesn't believe that by now.

Still neither of these guys stink, they just both had a bad game on the same game, which amplified the situation.

Unclebuck
10-15-2006, 12:50 PM
Exactly. There's nothing more to say really. This is ridiculous.

And now is as good of a time as any to remind everyone about one of our rules:

I apologize for my word choice, I was wrong and it won't happen again. I have changed my original post.

Anthem
10-15-2006, 02:48 PM
He chose the wrong team where his abilities are not utilized properly.
What team would utilize him properly?

What teams out there don't require their guards to be able to dribble?

BlueNGold
10-15-2006, 03:13 PM
What teams out there don't require their guards to be able to dribble?

LOL. None.

I will admit that I was a big time supporter of Saras coming. I saw his leadership, confidence and passing ability to be his strengths. I now see the considerable, possibly insurmountable flaws in his game within the context of the NBA.

Many times Saras supporters will say that he needs the right team around him, or the right system to support his shortcomings on defense and ball handling. I think these "adjustments" can be made in the Euro game, but not the NBA. The problem comes down to the fact that Saras' weaknesses center on quickness....and quickness is the area where the NBA differs from Euro the very most. Quickness is the reason why guys like Steve Alford are not in the NBA hall of fame.

The truth is, all the other team needs to do to take Saras out of the game entirely is to put one on one ball pressure on him. No double team is even needed. This either forces the ball out of his hands or forces a turnover. Saras' value as a player is not at SG. It is PG when he is leading and directing the offense. He cannot do that without the ball.

Like I said, I was excited when we signed him. I now see he is not a good fit for the NBA game.

Evan_The_Dude
10-15-2006, 03:41 PM
yeah if people are gonna bash runi they can take it elsewhere...people need to really stop trying to blame him its not his fault.

LMAO!!! It's not his fault that he can't bring the ball up the floor under pressure?

Seed
10-15-2006, 04:35 PM
LOL. None.

I will admit that I was a big time supporter of Saras coming. I saw his leadership, confidence and passing ability to be his strengths. I now see the considerable, possibly insurmountable flaws in his game within the context of the NBA.

Many times Saras supporters will say that he needs the right team around him, or the right system to support his shortcomings on defense and ball handling. I think these "adjustments" can be made in the Euro game, but not the NBA. The problem comes down to the fact that Saras' weaknesses center on quickness....and quickness is the area where the NBA differs from Euro the very most. Quickness is the reason why guys like Steve Alford are not in the NBA hall of fame.

The truth is, all the other team needs to do to take Saras out of the game entirely is to put one on one ball pressure on him. No double team is even needed. This either forces the ball out of his hands or forces a turnover. Saras' value as a player is not at SG. It is PG when he is leading and directing the offense. He cannot do that without the ball.

Like I said, I was excited when we signed him. I now see he is not a good fit for the NBA game.

Hi BlueNGold,
I find your points very valid, and unprejudiced. Just wanted to offer a slightly different view, I'd like your opinion on it.
Thing is, I happened to see Saras playing in Europe against excellent defenders.
Now, as you strike me as someone who can think for himself, you'll understand the Euroleague has many players that can defend in NBA level. Many of those are Americans who have'nt got the offense or size or luck or whatever to compete in the NBA. Think NBA 3rd or 4th stringers PGs. Many of them can defend well and many of them will find themselves in Europe.

Thing is, Saras was a top Euroleague PG against these guys too. I saw him struggling on occasions, but the impact on the game was nothing comparing to the benefits.
How come?
The answer lies in the offense game of the whole team. The game in Europe is not based on 1/1 moves, but on ball movement.

Saras may be one of the poorest 1/1 players in the NBA currently, but he is a legend when the team is playing in an offensive system that is closer to the Euro one. When this happens, it almost doesn't matter how skilled is the defender in terms of ball pressure on the ground, because the ball stays much less on the ground.

The current dominant style in the NBA, and the style the Pacers were playing last season did not suit Saras. I thought he might make some adjustments, but ultimately - you may be right. If you play him with isolation oriented guys like Jax, JO, Al, you lose much of what he can bring to the table.

I believe we will eventually see some Euro style offense in the NBA. The day is not far. But until then, Saras may very much be a non-fit. I still have hope though..

On the defensive edge, Saras was a liability in Maccabi too. The coach eased it using zone defense, which is much more popular there.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents..

Robertmto
10-15-2006, 04:47 PM
So apparently Saras will run point by passing the ball to someone else?

If he can't bring the ball upcourt then he can't run point.

And if he can't shoot and doesn't have good shot selection then he can't play the 2.

The Pacers have enough quality forwards.

Can Saras play center? It looks like he'll have to if he wants to wear blue and gold AND see playing time.

Unclebuck
10-15-2006, 04:58 PM
I firmly believe Saras will play very little if at all during the regular season. Armstrong, Greene and Marquis will get the point guard minutes.


Another thing has me concerned about last night's game. I realize the game wasn't on TV, so only those who were there saw it. (was it on NBA LP?) The Jazz had very little trouble guarding JO in the low post. He had his shot blocked several times, he was getting frustrated, and overall he just wasn't a factor down there.

The Jazz were very physical as they always are, and it took JO out of his comfort area, he then started rushing a few shots and he just didn't look very good. Even in the 4th quarter (JO played the first probably 7 minutes of the 4th) when he was defended by second stringers, JO still had a lot of trouble. If it weren't for AL the Pacers offense would have looked beyond horrible.

I just looked at the box score and JO was 4 of 8 which isn't bad at all, maybe I was just in a bad mood last night.

AirLithuania
10-15-2006, 04:58 PM
Its obvious that Saras's ballhandling is not good at all. However, if he is an asset on the offensive end as a leader, passer and occasionally a shooter, I would say a good coach can do stuff that would at least to some extent hide Saras's poor ballhandling.
For example when he is bringing the ball upcourt, it is possible to have a big guy set him a pick somewhere around the middle of the court. Now i tell you that when a defender hits that screen hard, he will watch out for it the next time and not put as much pressure on the ball as earlier. I don't know about the NBA, but at least this type of "assistance" is often used in Éurope.

AirLithuania
10-15-2006, 05:02 PM
Besides Seed had a very good point about how Saras thrives in a passing-game. In the end I actually believe that the Pacers would benefit from this type of offence. As far as I remember the great Pacers teams in late 1990s with Reggie, Marc, Smits etc. played more like a team (less 1-on-1s etc.) than last years Pacers.

Peck
10-15-2006, 05:08 PM
Uncle Buck.

While I appreciate your posting about the backcourt & all I need something else as well.

How did Shawne Williams look? When I saw him in game 1 I was very pleased because he has been talked down so much & I thought he was farther along than they were saying.

Also how did Josh Powell do? I know box score doesn't show either doing well but we both know that box scores are usually only good for fantasy basketball.

Other than one box score stat that does bother me. We were beyond horrible at rebounding.

BTW, although I hate Boozer for what he did to Cleveland, I have always thought he had a good solid game & he always outplayed J.O. becasue he is just a physical player.

Rytas_Jega
10-15-2006, 05:14 PM
Saras is a living legend of Euroleague, the same Euroleague that produced Ginobili, Diaw, Gasol, Nocioni, Okur, Turkoglu, Kirilenko, Bargnani, Varejao, Stojakovic, Krstic, Jaric, Giricek, Radmanovic, Brezec, Calderon.

No idea what's happening to him there in Indianapolis.

JayRedd
10-15-2006, 05:14 PM
It seems a lot of you guys take these pre-season games fairly seriously. Well, I'm pretty sure the players don't. Do you guys really think Jamal was trying? I didn't see the game, so i'm speaking from ignorance here, but I doubt he's reached the point where guys with the footspeed of Deron Williams are blowing by him yet. But with an 82-game season, plus playoffs, ahead of them I'm pretty sure the guys see this as a practice in front of fans. Nothing more. If Tins problems are sluggish defense and lack of effort in a pre-season game, I'm not concerned. That's to be expected of a guy without competition for his spot and Tins' history of injuries.


As for Sarunas, I'm sure he's very skilled and talented at the game of basketball. I'd certainly never accuse him of "sucking". But he's simply too slow for his size and strength to play very effectively in the NBA. There's a reason why incredibly talented basketball players like Steve Alford, Gerry MacNamera and Trajan Langdon simply cannot succeed in the NBA. They just have too many physical limitations that are easilly exploitable by the freakish athletes that populate the League. And unfortunately for us, Sarunas has those same limitations. Let's stop pretending and start trying to use him like Steve Kerr or a Fred Hoiberg before we lose another $4 million this year.

Los Angeles
10-15-2006, 05:17 PM
I firmly believe Saras will play very little if at all during the regular season. Armstrong, Greene and Marquis will get the point guard minutes.


Another thing has me concerned about last night's game. I realize the game wasn't on TV, so only those who were there saw it. (was it on NBA LP?) The Jazz had very little trouble guarding JO in the low post. He had his shot blocked several times, he was getting frustrated, and overall he just wasn't a factor down there.

The Jazz were very physical as they always are, and it took JO out of his comfort area, he then started rushing a few shots and he just didn't look very good. Even in the 4th quarter (JO played the first probably 7 minutes of the 4th) when he was defended by second stringers, JO still had a lot of trouble. If it weren't for AL the Pacers offense would have looked beyond horrible.

I just looked at the box score and JO was 4 of 8 which isn't bad at all, maybe I was just in a bad mood last night.

Yes, it was on DirecTV League Pass, and it was great because it was 100% commercial free, and they used Mr. Boyle and Slick's radio feed as the audio. Where the commercials were supposed to be, they just had an overhead cam with a courtside mic, so I got to see and hear Ashley Bidwell, the Pacemates, the Kiss Cam, the fake car race and everything. It was the closest I've ever felt to being inside Conseco without actually being there.

Now, as far as JO in the low post, the way I saw it, they were throwing guys at him left and right and that is the primary reason that Al got the ball so often and was fouled so often. If Al was actualy able to score and get the extra shot rather than miss and go to the line for 2, we would have hurt them more for crowding Jermaine so much.

BUT - the offense wasn't any where near the flowing offense of the first game. If we're going to use a "push-the-ball-up" offense, then JO shouldn't get to the post, and he certainly shouldn't get double teamed that often.

I don't know if I'll watch the game again, but if I do I'll look to see if JO is frustrated by getting shut down or if he is frustrated by the game plan breaking down. Did the Jazz's defense win the game, or did the pacers offense lose the game? I know it's just a matter of perspective, but after watching the game once, I really think it's the latter, not the former.

Unclebuck
10-15-2006, 05:28 PM
Uncle Buck.

While I appreciate your posting about the backcourt & all I need something else as well.

How did Shawne Williams look? When I saw him in game 1 I was very pleased because he has been talked down so much & I thought he was farther along than they were saying.

Also how did Josh Powell do? I know box score doesn't show either doing well but we both know that box scores are usually only good for fantasy basketball.

Other than one box score stat that does bother me. We were beyond horrible at rebounding.

BTW, although I hate Boozer for what he did to Cleveland, I have always thought he had a good solid game & he always outplayed J.O. becasue he is just a physical player.

Williams looked better in game 1. Last night he took a three point shot and he missed it wide right, I mean really wide right. Although I can't give any examples from last nights game, but I just have a sense that he has, especially for a young guy, a good feel for the game. I admit though I wasn't focusing on Williams so I can't really say much more about his performance last night. He shot 0 of 4, but none of his mistakes stood out in my mind. Williams is not a great athlete, so all those comparisons to Bedner just aren't even half true.

Powell was much, much better in game number 1. Last night he seemed a little lost on the defensive end, as far as being in the right place at the right time and what to do within the team defensive stuff. I certainly like his physicalness though, he provides a physical presense on the court and we need that. His rebounding wasn't factor, or I should say it was a non-factor, he looked tired last night to me.

Boozer looked good last night (except for his horrible looking free throws, I thought he was a good shooter) but overall his defense was rather good and he gave JO fits with his physical play.

Marshall struggled in the starting lineup, he made several defensive mistakes one on an inbound play and he just wasn't very good. White wasn't very good either.

Robertmto
10-15-2006, 05:32 PM
Its obvious that Saras's ballhandling is not good at all. However, if he is an asset on the offensive end as a leader, passer and occasionally a shooter, I would say a good coach can do stuff that would at least to some extent hide Saras's poor ballhandling.
For example when he is bringing the ball upcourt, it is possible to have a big guy set him a pick somewhere around the middle of the court. Now i tell you that when a defender hits that screen hard, he will watch out for it the next time and not put as much pressure on the ball as earlier. I don't know about the NBA, but at least this type of "assistance" is often used in Éurope.

How can a second year player be a leader on the team? And why waste a big body that coould be getting position in the post for a feed by making him set a pick when you could just sub in anpthe rPG who can DRIBBLE AND SHOOT and not have to?

Seed
10-15-2006, 05:38 PM
How can a second year player be a leader on the team? And why waste a big body that coould be getting position in the post for a feed by making him set a pick when you could just sub in anpthe rPG who can DRIBBLE AND SHOOT and not have to?
I wonder if your'e asking these as rethoric questions, because I think they are great ones. And I mean it with absolutely no connection to Saras whatsoever.

Seed
10-15-2006, 05:42 PM
BUT - the offense wasn't any where near the flowing offense of the first game. If we're going to use a "push-the-ball-up" offense, then JO shouldn't get to the post, and he certainly shouldn't get double teamed that often.
I think it was you who wrote it - so far we suck on the perimeter.
I guess if we could pose a threat from downtown, the defence wouldn't be crowding around JO so much.

AirLithuania
10-15-2006, 05:56 PM
How can a second year player be a leader on the team? And why waste a big body that coould be getting position in the post for a feed by making him set a pick when you could just sub in anpthe rPG who can DRIBBLE AND SHOOT and not have to?


By leader I meant an emotional leader, I think you know what I mean.

For a big man setting a pick, well, I guess you could put it that way. However,
1) how often does the ball go straight down low to the post? and anyway the big man will have time to get under the basket...
2) setting picks like that can be used as a way of intimidating opposition players
3) if the pick works well the pg can get an advantage over his defender or a possible mismatch is created

Of course everyone would like to have a pg who could pass, shoot, dribble, be an emotional leader, have a good understanding of the game and be athletic and a good defender. However these kind of players are kind of rare, and I can't think of any in the NBA right now (pg I mean - Nash can't defend, Iverson if you count him can't pass nor can Marbury, Kidd isn't that good shooter etc.). You have to stick with what you've got.
Although Saras can't defend or dribble that well, he can shoot, pass and create plays and he understands the game.

BlueNGold
10-15-2006, 05:59 PM
The answer lies in the offense game of the whole team. The game in Europe is not based on 1/1 moves, but on ball movement.



Yes, the NBA and Euro league are very different games. IMO, it is a combination of the style AND quickness in the NBA that make it tough on Saras.

As for style (i.e. ball movement), I think the number of times Saras gets the ball back during a half court set has a lot to do with it. If the style is ball movement his ball handling weakness is diminished significantly, and he gets his hands on the ball more often outside the context of bringing it up the floor...so you have a good point. In fact, I think the Euro style is a superior form of basketball and is the primary reason our better athletes are losing at the international level.

As for quickness, that is a separate issue. The NBA is filled with ultra quick guards. Many great NCAA players fail to make it in the NBA completely due to their lack of athleticism and quickness in particular. Consequently, I will need to see Saras succeed before I believe he can do it in the NBA...regardless of the style of team he plays on.

...so in short, his best bet is to get on a passing oriented team. I don't think this Pacer team is a good fit for him.

BlueNGold
10-15-2006, 06:15 PM
I firmly believe Saras will play very little if at all during the regular season. Armstrong, Greene and Marquis will get the point guard minutes.

Another thing has me concerned about last night's game. I realize the game wasn't on TV, so only those who were there saw it. (was it on NBA LP?) The Jazz had very little trouble guarding JO in the low post. He had his shot blocked several times, he was getting frustrated, and overall he just wasn't a factor down there.

The Jazz were very physical as they always are, and it took JO out of his comfort area, he then started rushing a few shots and he just didn't look very good. Even in the 4th quarter (JO played the first probably 7 minutes of the 4th) when he was defended by second stringers, JO still had a lot of trouble. If it weren't for AL the Pacers offense would have looked beyond horrible.

I just looked at the box score and JO was 4 of 8 which isn't bad at all, maybe I was just in a bad mood last night.

I knew teams would be able to push us around. Not sure why people were ever excited about the small ball with undersized players in the front court. No perimeter game and a collapsing defense just puts fuel on the fire.

On a more positive note, maybe Saturday's performance was due to lack of certain personnel and a very physical practice earlier that day.

Young
10-15-2006, 06:57 PM
I'm jumping in the middle of this but you know I have had a big issue with our point guard situation ever since I realized we were keeping Tinsley.

As much as I like Shawne William's game, I think we passed a couple of good point guards in this draft that could have really helped us. Rajon Rando, Kyle Lowry, and Jordan Farmar come to mind. Especially Rando. I can't remember the last time we had a rotation point guard who could defend like he is capable of defending. Such as a great athlete and he has more skills than he is given credit for. But it doesn't really matter because you can't change the past.

I think that it is way to early to start saying that this player is no good, etc. However I do see some other problems from the point guard spot:

- Reliabilty.
Tinsley can't seem to stay healthy and Sarunas is just unproven. I don't think Armstrong's body would be able to hold up 20 minuates a game for the whole year. Now I do really like Orien Green and I think he is a keeper and I wouldn't mind seeing him play big minuates for us, however like Sarunas he is unproven.
- Defense
Tinsley and Sarunas are not good defenders. I don't know how else to put it. Armstrong is a good defender but he can't play huge minuates, and Greene can be a good defender for us but again, he is unproven.

Lets not forget though that Tinsley is a good playmaker. Someone said that maybe we forgot how bad his defense was with all his injuries but I think maybe we have forgotten how good of a point guard he can be on offense. He is a very good playmaker. I don't know if Rick is opening things up but I know under IT, Tinsley seemed pretty good IMO but maybe I just thought that because Tinsley was so young back then.

While I think our point guard situation is our worst position by far it is still very early. So be optimistic. While I think we are stuck with Tinsley as our number one point guard (you can't really trade him unless you get another point guard in return.) I think that our backup situation should be interesting. I think that OG will make the team. So I am assuming he will. So you have either him or Sarunas as the backup and if Sarunas plays bad on both sides of the court I think OG will be the backup by the all star break. Sarunas has to come out and prove that he is much better than what he showed last year.

I don't know who all played but i'm just curious how David Harrison and Maceo Baston have done so far?

Also, i just thought of this but from everything I have read about the way the team has done so far our defense is awful. The players seemed lost. Which coach is in charge of our defense. I was thinking Rick and Johnny Davis are in charge of the offense. And I don't think that Person or Perry would be in charge of our defense. So is it Forcier or Burke?

burnzone
10-15-2006, 07:00 PM
Which coach is in charge of our defense. I was thinking Rick and Johnny Davis are in charge of the offense. And I don't think that Person or Perry would be in charge of our defense. So is it Forcier or Burke?

I think it is Chuck Person, actually, with Dan Burke assisting :(

Scroll down to the middle of this link, it says secretary of defense

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/digest_061003.html

Kegboy
10-15-2006, 07:06 PM
It doesn't matter who they say is in charge of the defense, it's Rick, and it always will be Rick.

Hicks
10-15-2006, 07:14 PM
It doesn't matter who they say is in charge of the defense, it's Rick, and it always will be Rick.

That's completely wrong unless you want to tell me the defense was the same before and after Mike Brown left. Or if you'd like to tell me we tried to apply defensive pressure like I've seen already this preseason before now.

Unclebuck
10-15-2006, 07:59 PM
It doesn't matter who they say is in charge of the defense, it's Rick, and it always will be Rick.

The defense is very different this season as compared with the past three seasons. More full court pressing, more picking up the opponents point guard full court, more trapping in the halfcourt, they are pushing pick and rolls to the baseline more often, they are pressuring the ball more, they are getting into passing lanes more, they are being more aggressive.

So I think the defense is different, very different and that is why Tinsley and Saras' defensive weaknesses are more glaring than ever because when you do what the Pacers are doing now the help defense is coming from further away and it is just harder to help.


Rick has never been in charge of the defense, there have been dozens of times the past few season where I've seen new players come into the game and ask Rick who they should guard, and probably 95% of the time Rick looks to Mike or Kevin to answer that question. Rick has left Mike and Kevin handle the defense past few seasons, it is yet to be seen if Rick will give Chuck as much freedom - or whether he deserves it.

Naptown_Seth
10-15-2006, 08:16 PM
It's not the "offense" that's hurting SarJas, it's the defense.

There is a reason that so many players that struggle to score in the NBA, get cut and become big time scorers in Europe. If you think the defense and philosophy is the same in Europe as it is in the NBA you're nuts.

Here's what happens to SarJas - if he is bringing the ball up they will often run pressure at him by the 3/4 point. At the HC line he gets trapped by doubles very often, way more than most PGs because he has shown a weakness in handling them and often picks up his dribble and turns his back to the court, and the if the ball rotates back to him in a regular set he sometimes sees a double trap again and moreso if he is on either sideline or still close to HC.

Now other players have had this happen on the Pacers. 2 years ago Anthony Johnson was suffering in a similar way. This began to decline at the end of the season when he adopted some improved moves to get upcourt, including (which we chuckled about over at the Star) the Tinsley "hip lift and shove" to clear space.

Last year AJ was improved enough, especially on his spins, that he could typically advance the ball with no issue. It was hoped that SarJas would make similar strides coming into this season, but unless he is holding back for some reason he doesn't have those moves.

In the WED game the Nets seemed to carry their double/trap methods beyond SarJas at one point to Tinsley, which proved to be a big mistake. They trapped him right at HC but he immediately advanced the ball (ironically to SarJas) who then passed into whichever forward it was that had been left in order to run the trap for the easy layup.

It's results like that and his ability to break pressure that keeps teams from attacking Tinsley like this all the time, it ends up wasting energy and getting them burned. If SarJas could advanced the ball well past these defensive attacks the pressure would end.

This isn't about 1 on 1 play, this isn't Marbury cross-over time. Heck, the better move is that basic spin/roll where you turn away from the defender to go with the other hand toward the other side of the court. You can't pick up your dribble in the backcourt under SINGLE PLAYER defensive pressure, and this is a choice that SarJas has made many times over.

The card on him now is "weak ball handler". Period. He's a PG and must handle the ball, that's a major portion of his job. If he wants to be a guard that shoots and makes passes for assists, then he can play SG; but of course he says he isn't and he doesn't score well as a catch and shoot player which backs his claim.


Only defenders read into all of this some desire to see him play like AI or Wade. That is NOT THE PROBLEM, so stop arguing that point. The problem is that their are 100 other PGs in the NBA at least that CAN advance the ball safely into the front court without a regular pick or special plan. Once in the front court these various PGs all do different things, some play like AI, some are like Billups, some are like Nash, some are as fundamental/simple as D West or D Fisher.

I mean how up-tempo can an offense be if one of your bigs has to constantly come back to protect the ball advancement and the pressure keeps the ball in the backcourt for 8-9 seconds every trip after a score?

Naptown_Seth
10-15-2006, 08:21 PM
The defense is very different this season as compared with the past three seasons. More full court pressing, more picking up the opponents point guard full court, more trapping in the halfcourt, they are pushing pick and rolls to the baseline more often, they are pressuring the ball more, they are getting into passing lanes more, they are being more aggressive.
I agree. The main thing that I've been commenting on is the rotations, switches and pseudo-doubles (players drift almost into zone in order to keep 2 men ready to go into full double if they have the chance). They've pushed the ball to the sidelines on traps and are rotating help from all 5 positions, or trying because this is tricky and hard for green players to pick up.

I actually think that has helped SarJas because he is better at thinking the game than using individual skills to defend the ball. But the overall plan is probably going to go through fits as the team adapts to it.

Both ends feature a lot of very different looks IMO.

Robertmto
10-15-2006, 08:29 PM
The defense is very different this season as compared with the past three seasons. More full court pressing, more picking up the opponents point guard full court, more trapping in the halfcourt, they are pushing pick and rolls to the baseline more often, they are pressuring the ball more, they are getting into passing lanes more, they are being more aggressive.

Theres 2 bright sides here. The Pacers defense will get better and Saras "will not be playing up to his abilities" in practice and won't get any PT.

Calgary Jazz
10-15-2006, 09:38 PM
The current dominant style in the NBA, and the style the Pacers were playing last season did not suit Saras. I thought he might make some adjustments, but ultimately - you may be right. If you play him with isolation oriented guys like Jax, JO, Al, you lose much of what he can bring to the table.

I believe we will eventually see some Euro style offense in the NBA. The day is not far. But until then, Saras may very much be a non-fit. I still have hope though..


I agree, this is a good point and thats what I was trying to say last year before he signed with Indiana. Saras just can't be effective on the team were he doesn't have any respect or abilities to show his leadership. He needed to go to Utah ( here is your European style offense), were ball moves a lot, main players know him and respect him (Kirilenko,Okur,Giricek), picks are set, and isolation plays are as common as Jackson or O'Neal passing the ball to back to Saras. And if Sloan wanted him and was offering contract it means he knew his shortcomings and had a plan how to use him properly. But unfortunately we will never know.

Kegboy
10-15-2006, 10:43 PM
it is yet to be seen if Rick will give Chuck as much freedom - or whether he deserves it.

There's the key right there. Even Jay would agree, Chuck is no Mike Brown or Kevin O'Neill.

Rick is not Larry Bird. He doesn't sit around and let the assistants do the coaching for him. At the end of the day, Rick has always been in charge of both offense and defense. It could be argued that he'll defer to Davis now, but I don't think so. Larry may have forced Rick to fire Kevin and speed up the tempo, but he didn't force Davis on him, he was Rick's choice cause they coached together in Portland.

The style may have changed, but I saw absolutely nothing on Wednesday that makes me think this isn't a Rick Carlisle coached team, on both ends of the floor.

naptown
10-16-2006, 08:57 AM
This is pre-season people. The Colts were 1-8 in the pre-season the last two years. That should tell you exactly how much the pre-season means. The only thing that matters is that we are playing our best ball come April.

We have a bunch of new faces on this team, a new offense and a new defense. It is going to take time before everything comes together. Until April, you all can run around with your panties in a bunch, having virtual mental breakdowns and spreading your cup is half empty doom and gloom.

Me personally, I am just going to enjoy the season and watch the progression of the team as the season unfolds.

bulldog
10-16-2006, 09:38 AM
Not another Runi thread. Can we let our second (third?) string PG spend his time on the bench in peace?

If we're gonna get all hysterical about one pre-season game, how about JO? I didn't really see anything special there, he was solid but not dominating. That's the guy that's supposed to be a leader and take us to the promised land, not Runi. I like what I see from Al, it's a breath of fresh air, but JO hasn't really impressed, IMHO. And yea, Tins' D is gawdawful.


But its just pre-season, so whatever. We'll see.

ChicagoJ
10-16-2006, 10:35 AM
I guess I can't say what I wanted to say about our backcourt.

But they were just awful against the Jazz.

Tinsley had his feet in concrete, and when that happens he tries too hard to force the action on offense. He did have a few nice plays but there were more "duds" than successes.

Saras looked absurdly bad. And he is only going to get slower, folks.

Darrell Armstrong was our best PG of the night. That's a bad thing, Pacers fans.

I thought, and I've been offline so if I missed this discussion I apologize - that our SGs were even worst than our PGs, though.

Rawle looked lost. James White looks like a regular rookie and it will take him some time. SJax played like he always does - holds the ball for too long then makes a bad decision resulting in either a brick or turnover. Saras had some time at SG and didn't do anything. We really need Daniels to get healthy.

Its a good think I like our team's frontcourt - but they can only take the team so far...

Peck,

Neither Shawn Williams nor Powell distinguished themselves, IMO. I was looking forward to Powell, and I think he'll make a solid "fourth" post player and he may make Foster obsolete. But that's not saying much in my opinion.

However, I did like Rick's combination of David at "5" and Jeff at "4". That's the right way to use Foster.

Williams missed one shot so badly (an airball that was at least three feet short of the basket) that Slick said, "Its not like shooting at Memphis anymore."

Unclebuck
10-16-2006, 10:54 AM
I guess I can't say what I wanted to say about our backcourt.

But they were just awful against the Jazz.

Tinsley had his feet in concrete, and when that happens he tries too hard to force the action on offense. He did have a few nice plays but there were more "duds" than successes.

Saras looked absurdly bad. And he is only going to get slower, folks.

Darrell Armstrong was our best PG of the night. That's a bad thing, Pacers fans.

I thought, and I've been offline so if I missed this discussion I apologize - that our SGs were even worst than our PGs, though.

Rawle looked lost. James White looks like a regular rookie and it will take him some time. SJax played like he always does - holds the ball for too long then makes a bad decision resulting in either a brick or turnover. Saras had some time at SG and didn't do anything. We really need Daniels to get healthy.

Its a good think I like our team's frontcourt - but they can only take the team so far...




I really don't know if I can stomach watching Jackson, Tinsley and Saras all season long, I saw enough of Saras and Jackson last season to last me a lifetime and Tinsley reached that point for me a year before that. When I saw all three Saturday night it ruined my whole evening and I just can't take it anymore.

Please Rick play DA. Marquis and Greene as much as possible.

Why we didn't get rid of JT, Jax and Saras is beyond me, I don't care if we got nothing in return, I just can't watch them anymore.

Please understand, my comments about Tinsley has nothing to do with his propensity to get injured and my comments about Jackson in this post has nothing to do with his actions at Club Rio, I just can't watch them anymore.

It is a real problem

ChicagoJ
10-16-2006, 11:34 AM
I can still appreciate Tinsley when he's playing under control.

Unfortunately, ever since he figured out - during the weeks after the brawl - that he can get to the rim and score with regularity in this league - he just hasn't been the same player, for a team perspective.

I don't agree with a lot of the criticism of Tinsley (but, hey, that's just me) but I do agree with that one.

SJax, I've been saying this for a long time, I just can't stand the way he plays the game. He makes bad decisions on the court and it seems he also makes bad decisions off the court. He's the exact opposite of what I want in a SG, especially with our frontcourt as good as it appears its going to be.

Saras - against lesser quality competition, I'd enjoy the way he plays the game. I like what he can do - in theory. Unfortunately, I just don't think he can do it against other NBA-caliber PGs on a nightly basis.

You could tell the Jazz players were enjoying thier opportunity to play against him. What's-his-face was looking like a roster player until Darrell Armstong got up and challenged him for the last few minutes of the fourth quarter.

Bball
10-16-2006, 11:34 AM
I'm scared when Uncle Buck starts talking this way...

What does that say about the casual and average fans? UB has always been one of the most accepting, or perhaps I should say 'understanding', of Pacer fans.

-Bball

Kegboy
10-16-2006, 12:24 PM
I'm scared when Uncle Buck starts talking this way...

What does that say about the casual and average fans? UB has always been one of the most accepting, or perhaps I should say 'understanding', or Pacer fans.

-Bball

Maybe it's just UB's time to fall to the darkside. :evillaugh

Slick Pinkham
10-16-2006, 12:29 PM
I am shocked that anyone is actually surprised in the least that our backcourt absolutely stinks.

We have some nice backups. Unfortunately some of them will have to play starter's minutes.

MagicRat
10-16-2006, 01:32 PM
I just can't watch them anymore.

You should come sit in the balcony. We typically have no idea what's going on out there, let alone who the players are.

And, if you're lucky, Bowser will shoot the t-shirt cannon your way..........

Mourning
10-16-2006, 02:34 PM
I am shocked that anyone is actually surprised in the least that our backcourt absolutely stinks.

We have some nice backups. Unfortunately some of them will have to play starter's minutes.

:amen:

Also shocked that people are surprised we seem to be ... "not so good" from downtown and not a very good rebounding team either. I mean nobody talked about that during the summer, right? :rolleyes:.

Let's just try to stay somewhat positive and hope things can only get a lot better and that part of the problem is getting used to new teammates and the changes in the system we play.

It's just a pre-season game so far. I hope our guys get their stuff together rapidly though, because our starting schedule isn't exactly friendly to our franchise.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Alpolloloco
10-16-2006, 03:21 PM
Not another Runi thread. Can we let our second (third?) string PG spend his time on the bench in peace?

If we're gonna get all hysterical about one pre-season game, how about JO? I didn't really see anything special there, he was solid but not dominating. That's the guy that's supposed to be a leader and take us to the promised land, not Runi. I like what I see from Al, it's a breath of fresh air, but JO hasn't really impressed, IMHO. And yea, Tins' D is gawdawful.


But its just pre-season, so whatever. We'll see.

Sarunas had one less good game and everyone is crying about him. I agree that this threat should also go about the god awful ****ty game of JO, Jackson and Tinsley. They are supposed to be so good and they did nothing to prevent a loss.

Sarunas will be fine next game, especially because he will start. YESSS!!!

Doug
10-16-2006, 03:21 PM
Maybe it's just UB's time to fall to the darkside. :evillaugh

Trust me, it's a long fall.

And once you're there, it's hard to climb back out.

Pacers *removed*!

Bball
10-16-2006, 03:23 PM
Are we going to be a team that compliments JO or are we going to be a team that is not good for JO or other players around him?

-Bball

JayRedd
10-16-2006, 03:31 PM
a team that is not good

That's my guess.

Not sure exactly how we'll not be good. But I'm pretty confident we'll get there.

ChicagoJ
10-16-2006, 03:42 PM
We've got a lot of improving to get up to "not good" status by the end of the preseason.

:brick:

indyman37
10-16-2006, 03:50 PM
This might be a little off topic but do you think a part of the reason we brought Baston in would be so Saras wouldn't go running back to Maccabi. So then if things didn't work out, we could trade him and actually get something back.

BlueNGold
10-16-2006, 03:55 PM
This might be a little off topic but do you think a part of the reason we brought Baston in would be so Saras wouldn't go running back to Maccabi. So then if things didn't work out, we could trade him and actually get something back.

No. I don't think the Pacers are that terribly concerned about hanging onto Saras. I think Baston is a talented guy who may have been brought on to help with chemistry to some extent (through the Saras connecdtion)...but mainly because he was long, lean and fit the program. We are fortunate to have him. JMO

Unclebuck
10-16-2006, 04:04 PM
Maybe it's just UB's time to fall to the darkside. :evillaugh

I don't know, but watching the game Saturday night it just hit me like a ton of bricks

indyman37
10-16-2006, 04:06 PM
I think Baston is a talented guy who may have been brought on to help with chemistry to some extent (through the Saras connecdtion)...but mainly because he was long, lean and fit the program.
I agree that he is a very good player and I think that was a good part of the reasoning behind the deal, yet it probably persuaded and will continue to persuade Saras to stay here.

JayRedd
10-16-2006, 04:09 PM
No. I don't think the Pacers are that terribly concerned about hanging onto Saras. I think Baston is a talented guy who may have been brought on to help with chemistry to some extent (through the Saras connecdtion)...but mainly because he was long, lean and fit the program. We are fortunate to have him. JMO

Either that or maybe during all of Larry's Eurpean Vacations, he only actually ever watched one Maccabi game. When he got back, Donnie asked him how the trip went:

"Umm...well...yeah....

Oh right!...

There was this one great other guy that actually coincidentially enough played with Jasikeviscius in Tel Aviv...

He looked...um...really athletic.

He was tall and could jump high and everything. He blocked like five shots.

I say we sign him.

Do you think you could take care of that?

I really think it was a really productive trip now that we got a second Euro player. In fact, I should probably get back to Europe to do some more scouting.

Let me know how that whole 'keeping Jackson thing' goes.

See you at the home opener. Take it easy, Don."

JayRedd
10-16-2006, 04:10 PM
a ton of bricks

Get used to that

Naptown_Seth
10-16-2006, 04:11 PM
I can still appreciate Tinsley when he's playing under control.

Unfortunately, ever since he figured out - during the weeks after the brawl - that he can get to the rim and score with regularity in this league - he just hasn't been the same player, for a team perspective.

I don't agree with a lot of the criticism of Tinsley (but, hey, that's just me) but I do agree with that one.

SJax, I've been saying this for a long time, I just can't stand the way he plays the game. He makes bad decisions on the court and it seems he also makes bad decisions off the court. He's the exact opposite of what I want in a SG, especially with our frontcourt as good as it appears its going to be.

Saras - against lesser quality competition, I'd enjoy the way he plays the game. I like what he can do - in theory. Unfortunately, I just don't think he can do it against other NBA-caliber PGs on a nightly basis.

You could tell the Jazz players were enjoying thier opportunity to play against him. What's-his-face was looking like a roster player until Darrell Armstong got up and challenged him for the last few minutes of the fourth quarter.
Yeah but Jay, the "bad" game from him the other night featured him taking 3 shots, and 2 of those were 3 pt shots in which he was 1-2, which I'll take every game.

He can get to the rim and get his shot, and a PG should take advantage of that. We certainly don't have a problem with Deron going for 9 FGs as the Jazz PG. Why? Because he made 8.

Tinsley's main issue IMO, the reason fans blame his shot selection, is because he misses good shots. He gets nice inside looks that he often rushes or just blows somehow. The issue isn't with the design but with the execution. He needs to be able to make those shots because the threat of that scoring move will keep the HC open for other plays, especially the team's strong front line.

Last year after the major injury Tinsley never looked the same. So far this year he hasn't shown that same post-brawl speed or handles. That makes me mildly worried, but I know what he can normally do so I'm still mostly comfortable with this just being a product of the pre-season.


SarJas is different because he does need to work on his handles and needs to prove that this area is better. He has (or should have) a pre-season goal to practice and develop, this isn't just goofing around to get in shape time for him like it is for Foster, JO, Tinsley and Harrington.

If SarJas had been fine last year with this I wouldn't care at all, specifically because "its just preseason". The issue is that this was a problem during a point in the season when it most needed to not be, so we know its not just a pre-season effort thing.

Sarunas had one less good game and everyone is crying about him. I agree that this threat should also go about the god awful ****ty game of JO, Jackson and Tinsley. They are supposed to be so good and they did nothing to prevent a loss.

Sarunas will be fine next game, especially because he will start. YESSS!!!
No. I complained after ARMSTRONG tore him a new one at FanJam. You could see that some of the plan was to give SarJas some work dealing with traps and pressure. You could also see that he needed more work. He suffered from the same problem in the win over the Nets. So the Jazz game makes 3 outings in which he struggled with ball pressure just like the last 3 months of last season. That's not "one bad game" anymore.



I defend Jack in a general sense, but I often criticize his choices. He doesn't seem to think the game very well most of the time, and that's very frustrating. He's got some game that when put to good use could really help the team win.

But man does he kill ball movement when it rotates to him and he then stands and jabs looking for an opening for 6 seconds. That won't fit within an up-tempo environment.

Naptown_Seth
10-16-2006, 04:14 PM
You should come sit in the balcony. We typically have no idea what's going on out there, let alone who the players are.

And, if you're lucky, Bowser will shoot the t-shirt cannon your way..........
Alright smarta** :D ;)

imawhat
10-16-2006, 05:19 PM
This may sound silly, and it definitely isn't a solution, but it seems like it could at least help...


Why doesn't Saras bring the ball up as fast as possible? Isn't getting into trouble when he coasts to the half court line? Thinking is Saras' strong point, and flying up court (under control) would put more pressure and quicker decision-making on the defense.

That would help, wouldn't it? Or am I being naive?