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Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 09:45 PM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.

McKeyFan
10-10-2006, 09:50 PM
What about Jay?

Leisure Suit Larry
10-10-2006, 09:51 PM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.

I agree with you on something.

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 09:55 PM
What about Jay?

Well, Jay lives in Chicago, 3.5 hours away, he has a family, he has a job, he has other commitments. Don't tell Jay I said this, but if he decides to go to fewer games, I can understand. Jay is a die-hard fan who will never stop being a fan.

Pacesetter
10-10-2006, 09:58 PM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.

You're way off. I think if the fans can forgive by the dozen, then surely the players can show some understanding for pissed off fans.

Anybody who's been around this town knows if the Pacers act like they got some damn sense the fans will follow, and I think it's very short-sighted to judge warranted hostilities over this craziness to be indicative of lackadaisical fandom. It's the sort of apologist mentality we've been seeing lately. A guy has to understand for every cause there's an effect - that's the way it is!

McKeyFan
10-10-2006, 09:59 PM
Well, Jay lives in Chicago, 3.5 hours away, he has a family, he has a job, he has other commitments. Don't tell Jay I said this, but if he decides to go to fewer games, I can understand. Jay is a die-hard fan who will never stop being a fan.

I think Jay's example blows your theory. However, it could be true that those who have said they won't come to games will actually keep coming anyway, despite the threat, just as you suspect Jay will.

PacerFan31
10-10-2006, 10:00 PM
The Pacers don't need fans that turn their backs on them.

The ones who are turning on the team aren't wanted.

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 10:01 PM
I think Jay's example blows your theory. However, it could be true that those who have said they won't come to games will actually keep coming anyway, despite the threat, just as you suspect Jay will.


I'm saying those fans never went in the first place. Except for one game per season when they got free tickets.

edit: I suppose I better put this disclaimer in. Of course I'm talking in general terms here, I'm sure there are some people out there who had planned on going to 10-15 games this season who now won't go to any. There are people like that out there. But if you listen to the radio, read newspaper and watch the news you would think that 80% of season ticket holders are demending a refund.

I fear this thread will spiral out of control.

Pacesetter
10-10-2006, 10:02 PM
I'm saying those fans never went in the first place. Except for one game per season when they got free tickets.

Ok, so based off what?

Los Angeles
10-10-2006, 10:02 PM
You're reaching UB. Plus, you're dangerously close to a Sassan-like "not a REAL fan" argument.

Remember the story about the guy last season who had 4 courtside seats and was reducing his commitment to two seats? is HE not a real fan?

We have multiple forum members who have stopped getting season tickets.

Me, I've stopped wearing my Pacers hat to bars because I'm already sick of Trailblazer comparisons being thrown in my face.

For the first time ever, I'm considering skipping the two times they come to LA this season. The franchise is headed for a crisis that only winning will repair, and guess what? We already didn't think that this was that much of a winning team.

Facts are facts: Jackson was a liability, and the fans demanded that he be shown the door. Instead fan favorites Fred Jones, Pollard, AJ and Croshere were shown the door.

I'm not a happy guy about this mess.

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 10:10 PM
Ok, so based off what?

Personal experiences and interaction with people over the past 5 days or so.

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 10:18 PM
You're reaching UB. Plus, you're dangerously close to a Sassan-like "not a REAL fan" argument.

Remember the story about the guy last season who had 4 courtside seats and was reducing his commitment to two seats? is HE not a real fan?

We have multiple forum members who have stopped getting season tickets.

Me, I've stopped wearing my Pacers hat to bars because I'm already sick of Trailblazer comparisons being thrown in my face.

For the first time ever, I'm considering skipping the two times they come to LA this season. The franchise is headed for a crisis that only winning will repair, and guess what? We already didn't think that this was that much of a winning team.

Facts are facts: Jackson was a liability, and the fans demanded that he be shown the door. Instead fan favorites Fred Jones, Pollard, AJ and Croshere were shown the door.

I'm not a happy guy about this mess.


I feared this thread would spiral out of control. I don't expect you or anyone else to be happy about this mess, and yes it is a mess. I wanted Jackson traded since last December.

Those forums members who stopped getting season tickets ( I don't think there are that many) stopped before now.

LA, I'm not suggesting anyone isn't a real fan. EVERYONE ON HERE IS A REAL FAN, or you wouldn't be here in the first place.


My point is this, since last Friday I've talked to probably 15-20 people who said they were "done with the Pacers" they aren't going to anymore games, they aren't fans anymore. Well I know for a fact that almost everyone of them only go when they get free tickets and even at that they only go if they have nothing else going on and the weather isn't too cold. And many of those 15 people haven't been to a game in years, and only watch when the team gets into the ECF's. But they can sure talk up a storm

So let me make a second disclaimer: MY COMMENTS ARE NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE WHO FREQUENTS THIS FORUM. EVERYONE HERE ARE TRUE FANS

Pacesetter
10-10-2006, 10:19 PM
Personal experiences and interaction with people over the past 5 days or so.

You judge a whole city/state of fans based on YOUR experiences over the past 5 days?

Illusions of grandeur .... ;) :D

shags
10-10-2006, 10:19 PM
The Pacers don't need fans that turn their backs on them.

The ones who are turning on the team aren't wanted.

Wanna bet. The die-hard fans may not like the bandwagon fans, but the owners and management team NEED them. Those fans can be the difference between turning a profit or not, because the die-hards will be there no matter what. It's not just coming to the games, but it's the loss in merchandise sales, etc. And to be honest, that matters just as much as winning.

I'm surprise more Pacer fans aren't worried about a potential Portland Trailblazer situation, where the fans just get fed up with the team. Indianapolis isn't a great pro sports town anyway, and Indiana probably cares more about the image of their basketball players than any other NBA market.

ABADays
10-10-2006, 10:20 PM
You know my history with the Pacers UB. This was close, if not the last straw. I'm tired of supporting the like of Artest, Jackson and Tinsley. I expect the Pacers to represent class. It's a classy organization with some very classless players.

heywoode
10-10-2006, 10:22 PM
I have said all along that the incident has made me further away from liking Jackson and Tinsley. I have posted a few tirades about how I feel on the subject and I won't bore anyone with it again here...

I will say that I went to 12 games last year (plus the fanjam) from two hours away and I spent the summer talking about beating that game total. No matter how mad I was/am at the players for the recent incident, I still plan on attending as many as possible. I went to the fanjam, and I will be in attendance tomorrow night. I got the tempting offer for the four balcony tix for $9 also, and the only reason I'm not going is that I have a prior committment. Actually, it's in Noblestucky, and earlier in the day...hmmmm....I could still make it! Now I'm thinking about it!

No matter how mad I get at a few players I consider knuckleheads, I will still attend games because of the old 'name on the front, not the back' attitude....

I'm pretty much a pushover, so I am willing to take Jack at face value on the apology and now not write him off because of a lapse in judgment, albeit a BIG one, and not the first one....Now, if he goes back to low bball IQ and jawing at the refs.....Not sure how long the patience will hold.

Same goes for Tinsley. If he can stay healthy and be on the court, I will be willing to start anew, even if he isn't a Top 5 PG....


edit--

And ease up on UB, I think he was asking a legitimate question and not accusing anyone of anything. To answer his question; YES, the people jawing about being done with the Pacers over this (not just here at PD, but everywhere) are probably made up of quite a few casual fans who would watch the scores, but not necessarily do the large capital outlay that the diehards do....

Kegboy
10-10-2006, 10:27 PM
So let me make a second disclaimer: MY COMMENTS ARE NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE WHO FREQUENTS THIS FORUM. EVERYONE HERE ARE TRUE FANS

Hey now, watch it. I'm not a true fan and everybody knows it. Don't be libeling me.

vapacersfan
10-10-2006, 10:28 PM
Well I am still furious about this happening, but I still have my courtside seats for the game in DC, and I just got my tickets shipped for the game in December in Indianaapolis.

Granted I am not normal (we all know that, he) in that I am a out of towner, and these oppurtunities present themselves very rarely for me.

Pacesetter
10-10-2006, 10:30 PM
And ease up on UB, I think he was asking a legitimate question and not accusing anyone of anything. To answer his question; YES, the people jawing about being done with the Pacers over this (not just here at PD, but everywhere) are probably made up of quite a few casual fans who would watch the scores, but not necessarily do the large capital outlay that the diehards do....

Not to pick at your post, but should we just say the hell with casual fans?

Either you show up to games, buy a JO jersey, etc ... or your thoughts on Pacers basketball is irrelevant? Is that what we should think?

heywoode
10-10-2006, 10:42 PM
Not to pick at your post, but should we just say the hell with casual fans?

Either you show up to games, buy a JO jersey, etc ... or your thoughts on Pacers basketball is irrelevant? Is that what we should think?


No, I don't that we should say/think that. I like the casual fan just fine. Not everyone can afford to do as much as I do, and I don't do nearly what some people do....

I'm just saying yes, that I think at least a fair amount of people who are saying they are done with the Pacers are the casual fan, and not the people who are diehards...

Even non-Pacer fans have a right to express their thoughts on Pacers basketball, and their thoughts aren't irrelevant...we have a ton of them who make quality posts around here all the time!

Los Angeles
10-10-2006, 10:48 PM
UB - please accept my apology. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and I honestly thought that was where you were going.

Fact is, the future of the franchise's fanbase are casual fans right now. As the Pacers win games and interact with the community, casual fans become bigger fans.

The damage caused over the last two seasons are not just to the current attendance totals. It threatens the attendance totals for the next 5 years or more.

BUT - I think we know that both casual fans AND long-time season ticket holders are leaving the franchise. Even after a full-bore marketing campaign that has tried to focus the fans onto a renewed commitment to playing basketball, the one-time pride of Indiana is has only continued to be a national embarassment.

And it is impacting the interest in the team from courtside season ticket holders to casual fans. What's worse, potential fans are being scared away.

That's bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

I need ot say it again: Jackson was a liability. And we hung on to him months longer than we ever should have. This is yet another thing in a long list of backfires.

indygeezer
10-10-2006, 10:50 PM
Anybody read the article about the P's might want to renegotiate their stadium lease? Notice the $ losses that were projected? Think this incident will help that any?

OK...the Broker I'm associated with has season tix a couple of rows behind the visitors bench. He's had them since the Telethon. His comment to me today was that the Artest thing sickened him and it grew worse last year and this has broken it for him. He's sending them a message that he was one of those that "Help Save the Pacers" but this time you're on your own. He's already paid for this years tix but I may get to use them frequently since he can't demand his money back.
In the meantime, He's rediscovered amatuer sports. (IU and Butler may be the beneficiary's out of all this mess if many follow his example)
So.....here you have a 25-30 season tix holder that missed fewer games per year than most people attend throwing in the towel. Does that mean ANYTHING to TPTB??????????

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 10:59 PM
UB - please accept my apology. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and I honestly thought that was where you were going.

Fact is, the future of the franchise's fanbase are casual fans right now. As the Pacers win games and interact with the community, casual fans become bigger fans.

The damage caused over the last two seasons are not just to the current attendance totals. It threatens the attendance totals for the next 5 years or more.

BUT - I think we know that both casual fans AND long-time season ticket holders are leaving the franchise. Even after a full-bore marketing campaign that has tried to focus the fans onto a renewed commitment to playing basketball, the one-time pride of Indiana is has only continued to be a national embarassment.

And it is impacting the interest in the team from courtside season ticket holders to casual fans. What's worse, potential fans are being scared away.

That's bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

I need ot say it again: Jackson was a liability. And we hung on to him months longer than we ever should have. This is yet another thing in a long list of backfires.


I certainly accept your apology (though one was not needed).

Attendance was going to be down this season anyway because most people don't think the team is going to be that good. And yes this incident hurts, and yes it will have a negative impact on ticket sales for years to come just like the brawl is still effcting things today.

LA, I know you don't live in Indiana, but the marketing the Pacers had started a few weeks back and really ramped up 10 days ago was the biggest and most expensive campaign ion their history (I don't think I've seen that many Pacers commercials in my lifetime), and the incident Friday morning stopped it all. So that really hurts.

I also believe the Pacers really tried to trade Jackson and found out that he had negative trade value. I'm not just saying his trade value was low, it was lower than low, it was negative meaning the pacers would have had to trade draft picks and valuable players just to move Jax and the only think the Pacers could have gotten were bad contracts. (Same with Tinsley). So the Pacers decided to keep Jax.

I said a few weeks back that I look at this as a two year rebuilding project, and we are at the end of year one, during year two Jax and JT will be trade, I was saying that weeks ago.

Pacesetter
10-10-2006, 11:01 PM
Go Pacers!!!!!!!!!!!

Pacesetter
10-10-2006, 11:01 PM
Anybody read the article about the P's might want to renegotiate their stadium lease? Notice the $ losses that were projected? Think this incident will help that any?

OK...the Broker I'm associated with has season tix a couple of rows behind the visitors bench. He's had them since the Telethon. His comment to me today was that the Artest thing sickened him and it grew worse last year and this has broken it for him. He's sending them a message that he was one of those that "Help Save the Pacers" but this time you're on your own. He's already paid for this years tix but I may get to use them frequently since he can't demand his money back.
In the meantime, He's rediscovered amatuer sports. (IU and Butler may be the beneficiary's out of all this mess if many follow his example)
So.....here you have a 25-30 season tix holder that missed fewer games per year than most people attend throwing in the towel. Does that mean ANYTHING to TPTB??????????

Wait, Unclebuck didn't say anything about 25-30 year season ticket holders. No way .... it can't be?!?!?!

Honestly that's terrible!

naptown
10-10-2006, 11:01 PM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.

Great point UB.... thoughts that I had myself. Did those people even go to games in the first place if they were not given free tickets?

I am sure there is a small percentage that wont go to games now because of the many incidents the last 2 years, but something tells me that is more of a product of being a .500 team than anything else.

Fair weather fan is what I call them.

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 11:03 PM
Anybody read the article about the P's might want to renegotiate their stadium lease? Notice the $ losses that were projected? Think this incident will help that any?

OK...the Broker I'm associated with has season tix a couple of rows behind the visitors bench. He's had them since the Telethon. His comment to me today was that the Artest thing sickened him and it grew worse last year and this has broken it for him. He's sending them a message that he was one of those that "Help Save the Pacers" but this time you're on your own. He's already paid for this years tix but I may get to use them frequently since he can't demand his money back.
In the meantime, He's rediscovered amatuer sports. (IU and Butler may be the beneficiary's out of all this mess if many follow his example)
So.....here you have a 25-30 season tix holder that missed fewer games per year than most people attend throwing in the towel. Does that mean ANYTHING to TPTB??????????



Geez, if you get a chance ask him would his intentions change if Jackson is traded and if Tinsley is traded.

!Pacers-Fan!
10-10-2006, 11:03 PM
man, **** the haters, support the pacers.

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 11:04 PM
Wait, Unclebuck didn't say anything about 25-30 year season ticket holders. No way .... it can't be?!?!?!

Honestly that's terrible!

You must not have read my first disclaimer

naptown
10-10-2006, 11:05 PM
Oh and one other thing... winning cures all ills.... let them rip off 50 plus wins, play entertaining ball, no more bonehead bad PR incidents, make a deep run into the playoffs and they will all come running back.

McKeyFan
10-10-2006, 11:05 PM
I also believe the Pacers really tried to trade Jackson and found out that he had negative trade value.


I think you are right.

However, if they had it to do all over again, do you think they would have traded him anyway?

I think they would.

Less is more, addition by subtraction. They made another mistake and I bet they sorely regret it right about now.

Pacesetter
10-10-2006, 11:08 PM
You must not have read my first disclaimer

You mean your edit?

Sorry dude, but I know you know alot about this team, I just think your ideas about the fans are way out there. People both rich and poor in this town have a right to be angry with how this group of Pacers are representing their city, and if you're not willing to accept that, so be it.

Los Angeles
10-10-2006, 11:25 PM
I certainly accept your apology (though one was not needed).

Attendance was going to be down this season anyway because most people don't think the team is going to be that good. And yes this incident hurts, and yes it will have a negative impact on ticket sales for years to come just like the brawl is still effcting things today.

LA, I know you don't live in Indiana, but the marketing the Pacers had started a few weeks back and really ramped up 10 days ago was the biggest and most expensive campaign ion their history (I don't think I've seen that many Pacers commercials in my lifetime), and the incident Friday morning stopped it all. So that really hurts.

I also believe the Pacers really tried to trade Jackson and found out that he had negative trade value. I'm not just saying his trade value was low, it was lower than low, it was negative meaning the pacers would have had to trade draft picks and valuable players just to move Jax and the only think the Pacers could have gotten were bad contracts. (Same with Tinsley). So the Pacers decided to keep Jax.

I said a few weeks back that I look at this as a two year rebuilding project, and we are at the end of year one, during year two Jax and JT will be trade, I was saying that weeks ago.

You make very good points.

And I understand what you mean about negative trade value. Thing is, we KNEW that this was the situation. Trading for a Jonathan Bender kind of contract would have been fine with many of us. We just wanted him gone because we knew he could hurt the team.

The team needed heart surgery, and you can't do that without making an incision. You have to hurt the body to help it. I know this is hind-sight talking, but I would have given away anyone to avoid this catastrophe. ANYONE - no exceptions.

Going into the off-season everyone understood what was necessary. There were only three tasks to perform and here they are in order of importance:

#1 - Get rid of Jackson.
#2 - Solve the point guard mess.
#3 - Find a suitable replacement for Peja/Artest.

Here's what happened:

- We spent months on #3.
- And we shuffled role-players around.
- And we got new commercials.

We needed heart surgery and we performed a hair transplant. And here we are, (not so) shocked that the patient isn't getting better.

OK, rant over. :)

but your original post was that the casual fans are threatening to leave. I think that it's not just casual fans, it's people at all levels.

I'll never forget the last couple of years. We may very well have been witnessing the death of the franchise as we've known it. I hope it's not true, but until now I didn't think it was really possible.

indygeezer
10-10-2006, 11:39 PM
Geez, if you get a chance ask him would his intentions change if Jackson is traded and if Tinsley is traded.

I'll ask him in the AM. I suspect I know his answer and that is that he has re-discovered how much fun he has at the HS and small college games. But I don't presume to speak for him...I'll let you know.

Charcoal Filtered
10-10-2006, 11:47 PM
For me personally: I get usually a week in Indiana during the basketball season and go to atleast one game. In Oregon, I never miss them coming to town. This year, I could go to the game in both places if I leave for the stadium after my plane lands but will probably not. Will catch them when possible on television.

Having endured the Jail Blazer era here in Oregon, look at the attendance records for the team. It was not until they acknowledged the problem and started losing that people truly turned on the team. It is hard to predict that what would have happened if they kept on winning, but know from the people that go to the games that losing was the reason keeping them away from the stadium. So, a slight decrease could be attributed to the Jail Blazer image IMO.

Personally, only went to one game in three years because of Ruben Patterson being a Blazer. When the new regime took over, in addition to the 40-60 hours I put in at my job, I took on another 20 hrs to work sales for the team. I am definitely in the minority in regards to outooks.

For the Pacers though, I do not think the team would make it thru something like the Blazers experienced.

First off, the public perception of marijuana is entirely different out here. Most in the West were not mad that they had it, since there are alot of smokers, but how silly some of the arrests were. They cheer now for Damon Stoudamire, even though he had some of the dumbest arrests on record. Jamal having it in his car, no matter who owned it, was just bad. I agree partially with UB, but think it will effect sales more than it did in Portland.

Second, the Pacers have historically had a fair weather base. I am sure alot of people remember the days where MSA was empty. Even now with a fairly good team and the best stadium in basketball, the gate is not that great. Jus t as easily as people started supporting, they have started walking away. If these fair weather fans dont exist, the resale market for tickets is crap. With the prices so high, you have to maintain this market.

Attendance last year was 16,179. That was 24th in the league. I would guess that number continues to decline unless the team starts the season on an incredible win streak.

Tyrion
10-10-2006, 11:48 PM
UB, I think that it's just the opposite of what you have suggested. I am way more upset about this team and likely to stay home than I would be if I didn't care so much about the Pacers.

I was totally pissed before the incident that we were going into the season with the same backcourt. I found/find the whole attempt to sell the "new look" Pacers to be totally disingenuous. This team is the same team as last year's team was to start the year, except Artest is replaced by a less-good Harrington. So I am coming at this with a negative bias that the average fan probably doesn't have. Then, when at the press conference to start training camp, Rick Carlisle talked about Jackson as having valuable leadership skills and wanting him to become a team leader, I thought I would puke.

The way I look at this is that it serves Carlisle, Bird, Walsh, and the Simons. THEY have made this organization into the laughing stock of the NBA. I don't need to support that. I have been a Pacer fan since the mid-80s. I don't have season tickets, because I work several nights a week, but I have gone to about half the home games. That is over. The Pacers are a joke. I haven't been able to stand watching IU basketball the last few years, but I'm hoping that is going to change.

To Uncle Buck's point, I am fanatical about the Pacers and only a fair-weather Colts fan. An incident like this would probably not change my Colts viewing, attendance, etc., But I am going to send the only kind of message that I can to the Pacers. The team I love has become a joke. Oh, and winning with a team that is an embarrassment in the way they play the game and conduct themselves in the community is not an answer to me. I watched the Pacers play losing ball for years and would do it again, but I won't support a team made up of players with these attitudes.

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2006, 12:12 AM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.
A packed house (lower 2 levels) for Fan Jam (at least on par with the norm) says that you are 100% right.

What, we had the guy that was done with them but went to FanJam because he was downtown anyway, give me a break. Some "message" that sends to the team, same one the complainers always give - if its convenient and tickets are cheaper (ie, free) then I'll go.



Geez, if you get a chance ask him would his intentions change if Jackson is traded and if Tinsley is traded.Or what if they win a lot and it has a lot to do with the play of Jack and/or Tins? Or heck, what if they win a lot and it doesn't have to do with them.

See, I thought that my ticket money also paid for me to watch Granger, JO, Al, White, Foster, SarJas, Armstrong...and is someone really that ticked about Daniels already? I didn't include Hulk due to his temper offending some fans.


You won't pay to watch Jack, but you did pay to watch Dreiling? Ugh. I'm betting it was more a case of "I'll overlook him to enjoy the others".





Plus, people talk about all the great times they used to have, but even with Reggie and some pretty good teams the Pacers often couldn't put together sell-outs.

And then you have the Colts, who even after going to the AFCCG couldn't sell-out games (with Harbaugh) and then with Manning/Harrison/Edge let TWO games go blackout in 2003 (ie, after they'd proven they were legit contenders).

There's a lot of big talk from fans in this city, but they don't back it up with dollars unless they think a title is certain. They aren't Packers and Cubs fans taking a stand, they are fans that wouldn't pay to see 12 choir boys get trounced on a nightly basis either, even if they were playing the right way in a loss.

The anecdote I always go to is this - the night Dale signed and was in uniform, to play the World Champ Bad Boys Pistons no less, we bought 4 tickets together just 28 rows back ($7 each even) from the box office about 20 minutes before tip-off. 20 minutes, 4 tix, 28th row, and certainly affordable.

Something to remember when the old-timers wax poetic about how they used to support the team when it had "good guys" on it, you know like Reggie, Rik, Chuck, Mike Williams (who I met and was blown away by how nice he was), and Vern...plus Dale being added that night.

And let me remind you that this was a playoff bound team coming off that thrilling 5 game series vs Boston, the first time the Pacers had won 2 NBA playoff games or played a game for the chance to win an NBA playoff series.



I'm bitter because back then I couldn't get why people wouldn't support the team. Most of the time the response was "oh, they won't win anything". You know what I never heard? "Hey, I don't care if they lose in the first round, as long as it's players like these that I can support and represent Indy values."

So F the liars now that are using image as an excuse to do the SAME THING THEY ALWAYS DO - bail the minute the wins appear less likely. Wouldn't matter if Reggie was still here. If Eddie Gill was the starting PG and the team only won 35 games, somehow their good image wouldn't draw those fans either.

And somehow if this team wins a bunch of games AS IS, Conseco will be packed with fans saying things like "I didn't like Jack but he really improved himself and won me over" or "well, I still don't like him but I want to support the rest of the team".

BAH I say.

Attendence follows wins, period, and in this town it follows it very, very slowly.

jjbjjbjjb
10-11-2006, 12:16 AM
If Eddie Gill was the starting PG and the team won 35 games, the NBA would...still be better than the Euroleague?

naptown
10-11-2006, 12:28 AM
A packed house (lower 2 levels) for Fan Jam (at least on par with the norm) says that you are 100% right.

What, we had the guy that was done with them but went to FanJam because he was downtown anyway, give me a break. Some "message" that sends to the team, same one the complainers always give - if its convenient and tickets are cheaper (ie, free) then I'll go.


Or what if they win a lot and it has a lot to do with the play of Jack and/or Tins? Or heck, what if they win a lot and it doesn't have to do with them.

See, I thought that my ticket money also paid for me to watch Granger, JO, Al, White, Foster, SarJas, Armstrong...and is someone really that ticked about Daniels already? I didn't include Hulk due to his temper offending some fans.


You won't pay to watch Jack, but you did pay to watch Dreiling? Ugh. I'm betting it was more a case of "I'll overlook him to enjoy the others".





Plus, people talk about all the great times they used to have, but even with Reggie and some pretty good teams the Pacers often couldn't put together sell-outs.

And then you have the Colts, who even after going to the AFCCG couldn't sell-out games (with Harbaugh) and then with Manning/Harrison/Edge let TWO games go blackout in 2003 (ie, after they'd proven they were legit contenders).

There's a lot of big talk from fans in this city, but they don't back it up with dollars unless they think a title is certain. They aren't Packers and Cubs fans taking a stand, they are fans that wouldn't pay to see 12 choir boys get trounced on a nightly basis either, even if they were playing the right way in a loss.

The anecdote I always go to is this - the night Dale signed and was in uniform, to play the World Champ Bad Boys Pistons no less, we bought 4 tickets together just 28 rows back ($7 each even) from the box office about 20 minutes before tip-off. 20 minutes, 4 tix, 28th row, and certainly affordable.

Something to remember when the old-timers wax poetic about how they used to support the team when it had "good guys" on it, you know like Reggie, Rik, Chuck, Mike Williams (who I met and was blown away by how nice he was), and Vern...plus Dale being added that night.

And let me remind you that this was a playoff bound team coming off that thrilling 5 game series vs Boston, the first time the Pacers had won 2 NBA playoff games or played a game for the chance to win an NBA playoff series.



I'm bitter because back then I couldn't get why people wouldn't support the team. Most of the time the response was "oh, they won't win anything". You know what I never heard? "Hey, I don't care if they lose in the first round, as long as it's players like these that I can support and represent Indy values."

So F the liars now that are using image as an excuse to do the SAME THING THEY ALWAYS DO - bail the minute the wins appear less likely. Wouldn't matter if Reggie was still here. If Eddie Gill was the starting PG and the team only won 35 games, somehow their good image wouldn't draw those fans either.

And somehow if this team wins a bunch of games AS IS, Conseco will be packed with fans saying things like "I didn't like Jack but he really improved himself and won me over" or "well, I still don't like him but I want to support the rest of the team".

BAH I say.

Attendence follows wins, period, and in this town it follows it very, very slowly.

ROCK ON SETH!!!!

You hit everything RIGHT ON THE HEAD!!!

Peck
10-11-2006, 03:14 AM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.


Two things that come to my mind.

1. A deep playoff run by the Pacers & a season free of off or on court distractions will bring out the fans. A lot of those done with the team just like to talk.

2. Now having said that I think it's unfair to judge fans based on how often you attend games. I know your not intentionally doing it, but you go to a lot of games & as far as I know you go by yourself. So you are not paying for a family of 3 or more to go to a game. It's hard to blame someone for not wanting to spend that kind of money on a team that doesn't represent what they want to see on the floor.

Eindar
10-11-2006, 04:57 AM
This town currently has 2 problems:

1. A vast following of fair-weather fans. Simply put, this city has no tolerance for losing. If you listen to Colts "fans", you'll notice something. They, and I'm talking about Joe Colt fan, who didn't even follow the NFL until Peyton showed up, have no concept that any NFL team can beat any other NFL team any given Sunday. They follow the Colts because they are winning, and they expect the Colts to win every week. I guarantee you the minute they smell blood in the water (6-10 season, Peyton retires), people will be stripping out of blue and white faster than a Smurf at an orgy.

More importantly however,

2. This city is full of "sports fashionistas", meaning, currently it's "cool" to be a Colts fan, so everyone is doing it. During our playoff runs in the 90s, it was "cool" to support the Pacers. Prior to that, it was the IU/Purdue rivalry. All it takes is a couple bad seasons by the Colts, alongside some promising seasons by the Pacers, and everyone in town will be talking about how much they love JO. Count on it.

tdubb03
10-11-2006, 06:06 AM
...people will be stripping out of blue and white faster than a Smurf at an orgy.


:laugh: LINE OF THE DAY!

indygeezer
10-11-2006, 06:21 AM
What part of Season ticket holder since the telethon do you people not understand? Care to count the years and number of games he has seen?

So, he's a great fan when he's attending 41 games a year during seasons when they only win 20 games but when he decides the product is no longer something he wishes to pay big $$$$ for he's a fair-weather fan????

Wait a minute, let me get the Star's Entertainment section and you can tell me which movies I should go pay to see...and MUST enjoy.




BTW...he played college basketball, he knows what the product should be, or at least what it should be to earn his dollars.

Eindar
10-11-2006, 06:24 AM
What part of Season ticket holder since the telethon do you people not understand?

So, he's a great fan when he's attending 41 games a year during seasons when they only win 20 games but when he decides the product is no longer something he wishes to pay big $$$$ for he's a fair-weather fan????

Wait a minute, let me get the Star's Entertainment section and you can tell me which movies I should go pay to see...and MUST enjoy.

I'm not talking about your friend, I'm talking about the other 95+% of the populace of this city.

RamBo_Lamar
10-11-2006, 06:31 AM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

I think most who say stuff like that are saying it because they are fans,
and do care, and are upset and trying to communicate to TPTB that they
want to see whatever it is bothering them addressed.

Threatening lost sales to anyone in business to sell something is one of the
most powerful forms of pressure one could apply I would imagine.

But sure, I'm sure there are those, especially on internet bulletin boards,
who may purport themselves to be "fans", but are just looking for an
opportunity to bash.

It's not easy sometimes to be able to judge exactly who is a die-hard fan
and who is not because how do you really know what they have going on
in their mind and in their heart? There may be quite a few folks that love
the Pacers, but due to logistics, or simply being poor and not being able
to afford tickets, transportation, etc, don't make it to any games. They
still may try to catch as many games as they can on WIBC with Boyle
and Slick...

indygeezer
10-11-2006, 06:41 AM
I'm not talking about your friend, I'm talking about the other 95+% of the populace of this city.

My comment was not directed to you Eindar, I happen to agree with you.

ChicagoJ
10-11-2006, 10:12 AM
Oh and one other thing... winning cures all ills.... let them rip off 50 plus wins, play entertaining ball, no more bonehead bad PR incidents, make a deep run into the playoffs and they will all come running back.

Which is it? 50-plus wins, playing entertaining ball (doesn't require winning), no more bonehead bad PR incidendes (doesn't require winning), or making a deep run into the playoffs (only requires playing 0.500 ball before the playoff start)?

Does winning really cure all ills? The 61-team win had lots of problems. Winning may disguise the problems, they may be put on the backburner on a temporary basis. But winning is not the antedote. The 61-win team was crumbling with chemistry problems during the Miami and Detroit series, and crumbling with injuries to JO and Tinsley during the Detroit series. Those themes first appeared at the conclusion of the greatest regular season in the franchises' NBA history and haven't changed yet.

On the other hand, winning just might be the symptom of fixing all the problems this team has had.

And then, the fans will come back.

BillS
10-11-2006, 10:23 AM
All I can say is that given the following:

- PR issues
- Profit problems
- previously reported stories that the Simons are looking at how to pass on the team when the time comes

we are at a very dangerous point. Those people claiming they won't support the Pacers due to incidents/losing/playing style/whatever need to understand that this lack of support could easily lead to the lack of an NBA team in Indianapolis.

I'm not saying they have to change their feelings or actions, they just need to be aware that there are deeper consequences than just sending a message and expecting to start hitting games next season.

It may be that driving the franchise out is exactly the punishment some people are going for. Fine and dandy, but I really don't think everyone is aware that it could get this drastic.

MagicRat
10-11-2006, 10:23 AM
The 61-win team was crumbling with chemistry problems during the Miami and Detroit series, and crumbling with injuries to JO and Tinsley during the Detroit series.....

And there were 18,345 in the stands every home game during both those series......

ChicagoJ
10-11-2006, 10:25 AM
UB, I think that it's just the opposite of what you have suggested. I am way more upset about this team and likely to stay home than I would be if I didn't care so much about the Pacers.

I was totally pissed before the incident that we were going into the season with the same backcourt. I found/find the whole attempt to sell the "new look" Pacers to be totally disingenuous. This team is the same team as last year's team was to start the year, except Artest is replaced by a less-good Harrington. So I am coming at this with a negative bias that the average fan probably doesn't have. Then, when at the press conference to start training camp, Rick Carlisle talked about Jackson as having valuable leadership skills and wanting him to become a team leader, I thought I would puke.

The way I look at this is that it serves Carlisle, Bird, Walsh, and the Simons. THEY have made this organization into the laughing stock of the NBA. I don't need to support that. I have been a Pacer fan since the mid-80s. I don't have season tickets, because I work several nights a week, but I have gone to about half the home games. That is over. The Pacers are a joke. I haven't been able to stand watching IU basketball the last few years, but I'm hoping that is going to change.

To Uncle Buck's point, I am fanatical about the Pacers and only a fair-weather Colts fan. An incident like this would probably not change my Colts viewing, attendance, etc., But I am going to send the only kind of message that I can to the Pacers. The team I love has become a joke. Oh, and winning with a team that is an embarrassment in the way they play the game and conduct themselves in the community is not an answer to me. I watched the Pacers play losing ball for years and would do it again, but I won't support a team made up of players with these attitudes.

I agree with a lot of this.

If I wasn't passionate about this team, I would've given up my tickets when we moved out of Indy.

If I wasn't passionate about this team, the last three or four seasons wouldn't have been so painful for me.

I've actually skipped watching games on TV over the past two seasons. That's never happened before.

Ultimately, I'll still buy my tickets, because I can't stay away. But I'm really, really pissed off at them right now.

At some point in time it becomes "shame on us" for continuing to support them when they have not proven they are trying to get better. They're telling us what we want to hear so that we keep paying them, but they don't back it up with actions.

The trick is that this team has the monopoly of professional basketball in my hometown, so its either "support them" or shut professional basketball out of my life. Right now, I don't like those choices.

Unclebuck
10-11-2006, 10:26 AM
2. Now having said that I think it's unfair to judge fans based on how often you attend games. I know your not intentionally doing it, but you go to a lot of games & as far as I know you go by yourself. So you are not paying for a family of 3 or more to go to a game. It's hard to blame someone for not wanting to spend that kind of money on a team that doesn't represent what they want to see on the floor.


I think I'm very careful not to judge fans on how often they go to games. I'm just going to say it, many of you who post in here don't go to many games because of the money and or other family or work commitments, and I would never question your fandom (as I've tried to make clear). For example I don't buy a lot of Pacers gear, in fact I've probably spent less than $80 in my lifetime on jerseys, T-Shirts, Sweatshirts, I just don't really care that much about wearing Pacers gear, some could argue that makes me less of a fan, well no it doesn't obviously. Many of you spend a lot more on Pacers gear than I do.

There are many people in this forum who are probably bigger fans than I am who go to one game per year.

None of that is the point I'm trying to make.

What I'm saying is probably 90% of those people who are calling the radio talk shows to criticize the Pacers and say they will never go to a Pacers game again, rarely if ever went to games in the first place. I know that to be true about the 15-20 people who I've spoken with personally, they aren't die-hard Pacers fans, they aren't casual Pacers fans, in some cases they hate the Pacers. They don't like the Pacers at all, but they are using this incident to criticize the Pacers because it is politically correct right now.

I'm not a Nascar, or Indy Racing league fan, I just don't like it, I know it's good for the city and I want those events to stay here even though I don't go. But if some big story broke about how how the most popular drivers are criminals and on drugs or whatever, and then I call the local radio shows, e-mail the Star, e-mail the local sports guys and said this is horrible I'm never going to another racing event in my life. And those media people go on the air and say they are getting thousands of E-mails from racing fans and they are very upset, that would be false because I'm not a racing fan. That leaves the false impression that die-hard fans are leaving in droves. I just think non-Pacers fans who are being critical of the Pacers are misrepresenting themselves as an excuse to be critical and the media is buying it.

Peck, and everyone else, please don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I know Pacers fans aren't happy and rightfully so

Unclebuck
10-11-2006, 10:36 AM
At some point in time it becomes "shame on us" for continuing to support them when they have not proven they are trying to get better. They're telling us what we want to hear so that we keep paying them, but they don't back it up with actions.



This is a topic for another thread, but you really don't believe they aren't trying to get better? Maybe I'm taking your comments out of context.

Jay - just for the record, you deserve an award for still going to as many games as you do while living in Chicago (yes I know you have family here) That is a horrible drive though. Fighting through Chicago traffic.

ChicagoJ
10-11-2006, 10:40 AM
They haven't proven it because they haven't played any games.

Talk is cheap. I want to see an improved product on the court and I'm not measuring improvement in W's and L's. Just as you've been calling it a two-year process, I'm expecting this team to still be well below 0.500 at the all-star break. I'm looking for a commitment to playing a better brand of team basketball.

Lastly, "Al plus ten new backups/role players that will barely make the roster and rarely play" is not the same thing as overhauling the roster.

RWB
10-11-2006, 10:41 AM
I think I'm very careful not to judge fans on how often they go to games. I'm just going to say it, many of you who post in here don't go to many games because of the money and or other family or work commitments,


Absolutely UB.

The Mrs. and I had season tickets in the 80s because we didn't have kids and could afford it (disposable income).

In the 90s we could still afford the tickets, however at that time the boys were big enough to play for their school teams and that frankly became more important. We still went to several games, but there was a cutback.

So starting in the last 5 years paying for two college educations has taken away any extra cash we could have spent on the Ps.

The die hards are still going to go. Life's cycle will change the direction for many. As others have pointed out it's the casual fans and probably corporates that these events will affect the most in deciding to go.

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2006, 10:54 AM
If Eddie Gill was the starting PG and the team won 35 games, the NBA would...still be better than the Euroleague?
:D

Rick gets his 2nd COY win too probably.




What part of Season ticket holder since the telethon do you people not understand?Geezer, I understand it fine, and if they lost him then its a true loss. But the cold hard facts tell us that he's not the norm. If he were then I would never have come close to seeing Dale's first game (and a big victory by the Pacers no less), except from the rafters.

Hey, I've NEVER had seasons tix, never could afford them. I do spend a lot on games as I cherry pick a few and buy really good singles at face. More than a regular person, but not 82 (41 pairs) at $170 each. More like 10-12, which is still a chunk of change at that price. But I'm not the guy that kept the team singularly afloat....of course I don't write them off to a business and the money I spend is more than I spend on any other single source of entertainment in a year, but still.

Take a client, business expense. ;)



And while we are on it, having sat with those ticket holders I can tell you that drunk is the norm, not the exception. In fact I believe we all know the person with the NICEST SEATS IN CONSECO...floor, front row, center court. Now who did the 5 time divorcee marry? Oh yeah, the stripper he met at his son's bachelor party.

Ride on Indiana puritans, ride on. I love watching them parade in with their cocktails in hand shmoozing with each other and cutting out early after coming in late.

Even better are the 4 drunks in row 3 using the law firm's tickets who are screaming out insults to whatever player they can target by the mid-2nd quarter. "Hey, I'M the show and I...er, someone...paid good money for my right to tell Jason Kidd to go back to beating his wife."

That's what I want to hear, some Foster Brooks double telling me how he's had enough and won't be back cause he has to take a stand. Good news for Club Rio, guess where his season ticket money will be going instead...can you break a $50 please? :)

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2006, 11:00 AM
In the 90s we could still afford the tickets, however at that time the boys were big enough to play for their school teams
I had never missed a playoff game since the DET series, and went to several regular season games too (on the cheap) UNTIL the little league team I was coaching (I didn't even have a kid on the team) had games on the same night. Turned out to be the first year the team won a playoff series and it turned out that every home night I had to coach.

It sucked, but it was worth it. I liked "my" team even more than the Pacers. I definitely understand those kinds of priority choices.

BTW, I never could catch a break on game overlaps till game 5 vs ATL in 96...freaking fracking sumbee. :mad: Talk about crap luck.



Jay, I will say that I agree that much of the product going on the court at the end of last season was ugly, and that wasn't because they lost. That Nets team was one they could have beaten if they just kept it together. Of course no Peja didn't exactly help, and that was when I really started wanting them to let him go. I will say that JO finished the season with his best ball and obviously AJ made the most of his always favorable Kidd matchup, but otherwise the team looked more like a disrupted team than at any point in the last 2 years (except right after the brawl).

I do get mad at the PRODUCT, just like you. I expect to see good movement and team structure more than individual effort. Club Rio doesn't impact that. Having a team together without major injuries and not having a player going on local TV to tell the GM he wants off the roster because his 15-16 FGAs just aren't enough (ie, he wanted more money) should go a long way to improving the product.

Rick has made something out of unimpressive rosters before, and this one actually has some talent. What they need is consistancy in terms of who is available to play on a nightly basis.

Knucklehead Warrior
10-11-2006, 12:38 PM
Sigh. :blush:
My Pacers, the ones I've watched and supported since 1967, have put me in a crappy mood. The old crusty drafty Coliseum, MSA with curtains drawn across the empty seats, no, none of that compares to the crap they've been throwing at us now for two years.

Is it not my right as a fan to feel betrayed, annoyed, disappointed? I must blindly support my team no matter what? Class, Sportsmanship, and Effort are all I ever ask. I notice when some of you talk about wins bringing back the fans you also mention Jax2 cleaning up his act, no more bonehead PRs, play entertaining ball, etc. That's more than just winning. That's also Class, Sportsmanship, and Effort. If your team embarrasses you, it doesn't matter how many games they win.

Will just winning a lot of games pull the fans back in? Sure, but not all. I'm obviously a fan without regard to wins and losses. Winning WILL NOT pull me back in, but the intangibles will. That's how I want my team to behave, not like knucklehead warriors. I want them to play the right way, proud, with their heads up, but not up their a$$es.

RIGHT NOW, THEY OWE ME. I haven't abandoned them, but their debt won't be paid until they can demonstrate Class, Sportsmanship, and Effort.

imawhat
10-11-2006, 12:40 PM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.


I said I wouldn't go to any games as long as certain players were on the roster. And I've been a Pacer fan since I can remember (die-hard though only since '93).

Honestly, last year was the toughest and most disappointing year I can remember, moreso than '96-'97 and '95-'96. And I'm still here.

Maybe some people were waiting for a chance to slam the Pacers, but I never wanted that chance. That's the whole point. Either way, whether warranted or not, "fans" have more than enough reasons to not support this team if they don't want to.

I'll still support the team. I still plan on watching every game. But I feel like I have to draw the line somewhere. I'm probably overreacting, but right now I feel there's no way I shoud reinforce management's/player's repeated bad decisions/betrayals with my money.

McKeyFan
10-11-2006, 12:47 PM
"IF they win some games, the crowd will come back."

"IF they stay clear of incidents, the crowd will come back."


I keep hearing this, but many of us believe they will not win a lot of games for the same they keep having incidents. Bad choices, bad judgment, bad character.

ABADays
10-11-2006, 01:11 PM
I have to tell you, I am quite impressed with this thread. It may the first time I've ever really seen actual "definition" of a fan and not just "well, you aren't a fan". Many of the views reflected here are one's I subscribe to - others not so much. But there is a very clear perception of a fan and I believe most of it on the same page.

I'm probably not as equipped to express my definition as well as most on here (impressive writers ;) ) but I will say this. As someone who has "been with the team" since it's inception, this is not the product nor players I want to see. Laugh if you want about being an old-timer or whatever, but there is a right way and wrong way to do things. We haven't been doing it the right way.

A very quick story about being a fan over here. I have Pacer gear with me - hats, t-shirts, etc. I even have a Jackson jersey. I will still wear everything with the exception of the jersey. It will never see the light of the Iraqi sun. I bought Slingbox specifically so I could watch the Pacer games on my computer over here when I can get a good feed. If that isn't being a fan I don't know what is.

PacerMan
10-11-2006, 01:26 PM
We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.

Uh, you're wrong.

I'll post what I just sent to the business office.

"I will no longer support this team as long as Stephen Jackson is a member. Did you learn NOTHING from Ron Artest?????
I usually attend between 5-10 games per and hoped to up that as I viewed this team as exciting in it's development. That will not happen now
Good luck to you. Nothing like a business bleeding supporters."

imawhat
10-11-2006, 01:37 PM
This was a really good read. Lots of interesting thoughts and points.

Unclebuck
10-11-2006, 01:39 PM
Uh, you're wrong.

I'll post what I just sent to the business office.

"I will no longer support this team as long as Stephen Jackson is a member. Did you learn NOTHING from Ron Artest?????
I usually attend between 5-10 games per and hoped to up that as I viewed this team as exciting in it's development. That will not happen now
Good luck to you. Nothing like a business bleeding supporters."

How can I be wrong, I'm presenting a theory to create discussion, I never have claimed my theory was 100% accurate.

Putnam
10-11-2006, 02:38 PM
Maybe I'm not a serious fan. But the reason I'm not supporting this team with a whole heart has nothing to do with winning or losing. I can stand a whole lot of losing. But bad player conduct is something else.

Look at it this way. I often order fettucini alfredo at restaurants. I've ordered it for $5 at Fazoli's and I've ordered it for a heckuva lot more in Vienna. But regardless of the quality of the portion, if someone spits in my plate I won't eat it. Does that make me a non-fan of Italian food? Or does it just mean I have a standard?

People should be allowed to set their own standards. In a loose, libertine and relativist society, it is wrong for one person to impose his standards on others. OK, I accept that. Dope and guns and whoring at 3am are simply matters of choice with no moral implications.

But each person ought to be allowed to have his own standards and not be criticized for them, so long as he sticks by them and applies them fairly.

There are just too many things about the Indiana Pacers that violate my standards. I just don't want to have to "not care" about so many things that I really do care about.

Each person needs to show some integrity. If you make a pledge, you need to follow through on it. Anyone who said, as I did, "If those Pacers don't clean up their act..." at any point over the past two years needs to face the fact that they haven't cleaned up. Larry Bird keeps retrenching and drawing a new line in the sand, but that doesn't mean everyone has to.

Uncle Buck's premise is that real fans are those who have season tickets and have kept them for years and will continue to keep them no matter what. I don't meet that test. I've not had season tickets since the 83-84 season. That was the wonderful first year the Simons owned. But after that season, I went overseas and spent most of the intervening years either in Central Asia, West Africa or Washington DC. I was back here from 91 to 97, and I attended 5-10 games each of those years. The only time I had tickets for a playoff game was for game 3 of the Knicks series in 94. I got appendicitis the day before and watched the game from a hospital bed. (Take that, Ewing!)

I'll never like any other basketball team. But there are nobler things to do than spend money on these guys.

Please don't anyone flame me. I'm not criticizing -- just expressing a minority viewpoint.


It's your world.

Unclebuck
10-11-2006, 10:37 PM
Kevin lee just said on the pacers postgame call in show basically the exact same thing I said in this thread

Pacesetter
10-11-2006, 10:48 PM
Kevin lee just said on the pacers postgame call in show basically the exact same thing I said in this thread

If what you are saying is true then the Pacers should see very little change in avg attendance!

indygeezer
10-11-2006, 11:26 PM
Kevin lee just said on the pacers postgame call in show basically the exact same thing I said in this thread

Please elaborate.

Naptown Seth......you are soooo wrong about my friend. His "client" is a grandchild he is raising without benefit of wife or childs parents. He has taken on the task of raising him/her alone....for the last 20 years. And due to a medical condition he neither drinks nor smokes. So save your stereotyping for someone else. And I'm not making this up.

I wsa shocked by his response tho....if Jax and Tins are gone from team then yes, he WILL renew his Tix.