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Pooh
04-26-2004, 08:48 PM
Spurs Coach Greg Popovitch sounded off today on his show about the Pacers and how Carlisle lobbied to get Artest the votes, it's very interesting. Part one is already posted, if you want to hear that, part two which has Popovitch's comments about the Pacers will be on part two. Here is the link:

http://www.woai.com/spurs/

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 09:00 PM
Looks like those Spurs fans over at the message board out there really love the Pacers......

Oh well, I really disagree with everything they have to say about the team. Obviously they have not watched very many Pacers' games this season.

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 09:01 PM
http://b51.ezboard.com/ffullsportpressfrm7.showMessage?topicID=9745.topic

There's the thread where everybody and their mother over there is ripping on Coach and the players, mainly Artest. Ignorance is bliss.

Pooh
04-26-2004, 09:04 PM
oh I know...I thought about phoning in, but I didn't think they would let me through...

sweabs
04-26-2004, 09:07 PM
When can we hear part 2??

Hicks
04-26-2004, 09:07 PM
Just when I think Pop is a class act, he has to rip another coach for lobbying for his players. Big whoop. Where was he *****ing when it was Rick lobbying for Ben? Is it because Ron plays a similar position to Bruce? Is he just not paying attention? Is he bored?

Possibly a combination.

Pooh
04-26-2004, 09:15 PM
Just keep going back to that site until it's posted. I dont know how long it takes for them to put up part two.

indytoad
04-26-2004, 09:19 PM
Heh, some real gems in that thread.

But when Artest is shying away from guarding the best scorers in league and Bowen is dying to bring them on, then you see the issue.

individual first, team second on the pacers

Although it's not really their fault they haven't seen any Pacers games.

They do make some good points though, as the Spurs will win the championship again this year, so the Pacers' regular season awards don't really mean anything.

IndyToad
Near impossible

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 09:19 PM
I just really wonder why Pop even cares what Coach Carlisle does on his own time, for his own players.

It's just so ignorant for the posters at that message board to label Carlisle a "whiny *****" just because he brings the attention to the media on what Artest has accomplished this season. Frankly if he hadn't, people wouldn't have known since Pacers basketball isn't exactly the most watched thing in the world of sports.

Artest doesn't back down on defensive assignments, in fact he relishes the fact that he does typically get to guard the opposing team's best perimeter player. Artest's offensive game is improving on a daily basis, and he's so strong in the upper body that he can get inside and score easily. Spurs fans, and Pop seem to forget that there's more than Kobe Bryant in the league to guard. Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, LeBron James, etc must not mean all that much. Ron is just a complete player, and has a lot of basketball IQ.

TD is no more special than JO, and TD is not light years ahead of him in offense and defense. Both are tremendous players, yet TD is not the god they are making him out to be.

These people are really out of touch with NBA basketball if they think the Pacers are a team of individuals, and not a team. All of our players are close both on the court, and off the court. There's a great team chemistry between the core guys, and Reggie's had an influence on all of them.

The Pacers can beat the Spurs in the finals if both teams are fortunate to get there. We'd have home court, and we've got the depth up front, and the depth on the bench to get the job done. We're proven we can beat them at home, and we nearly did it on the road losing by one in overtime. More things that they just seem to forget.

Ah well, these things can just fire up the Pacers more. I'd feel sorry for them if the Pacers get ahold of these comments if we meet them in the Finals. Locker room material can be very useful.

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 09:21 PM
They do make some good points though, as the Spurs will win the championship again this year, so the Pacers' regular season awards don't really mean anything.

You really are a positive person. :rolleyes:

Last I checked they still had to beat the Lakers (they're going to beat Houston next game), and then if they get out of that series they'd have to win the Conference Finals, and then get to the NBA Finals.

Nothing is guarenteed, especially since we'd have home court if we get there. We've got the defense to get the job done.

Unclebuck
04-26-2004, 09:35 PM
Who is this JON they are talking about.






























I know, they are talking about J.O. But they need to get the nicknames right.

Do we call Tim Duncan. TDU. No I don't think so.

I could not get the link to work to hear Opo.

I do know that earlier this season Carlisle on his radio show was talking about how much he respects Pop and how they are friends.

TheSauceMaster
04-26-2004, 09:36 PM
JON = Jermaine O Neal

Roaming Gnome
04-26-2004, 09:40 PM
Gee...Thanks Pock.

Just when I was starting to think of you as a good guy, you pull some Phil Jackson crap out of your ***.

Good Job!

SpADeD
04-26-2004, 09:45 PM
Some of those posters over there are ignorant homers. But I guess they have a right to be since the Spurs are the defending champs, but jeesh, give another team and players credit.

When you think Bowen is a better defender the RA and that RA shys away from defending a player, and that INDIVIDUAL comes first and TEAM comes 2nd for the Pacers, than you have not watched Pacer games this season. You can't play the whole West/East card on the DPOY thing either, aren't the most talented guards in the East?

It's funny how they are all bashing Pooh for some reason, he seems to be the one with more basketball knowledge than other posters there. Such as the quotes Indytoad put up earlier, those people just have to be idiots. So what if your lobbying for a member of your team, your supposed to. The coach is supposed to want his player to win, only makes the relationship better.

I believe we gave them a whooping at home and loss at 1 in overtime at their place because of a Hedo prayer. Give credit where credit is due. :unimpressed:

TheSauceMaster
04-26-2004, 09:51 PM
maybe someone should post over there that we are 20-8 against the West that's 71 % :D

indytoad
04-26-2004, 09:53 PM
artest is all defensive nba first team
bowen isnt

Actually, Bowen was...

IndyToad
One play on Sunday

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 09:57 PM
Yeah, people do forget that we lost to Sacto twice, Artestless even. We also lost at SA by one in overtime.

People just love to skew numbers against us. And now, the rest of the story....

Hicks
04-26-2004, 10:28 PM
Even the Spurs board I visit and think highly of is playing low-ball on this. It's very disappointing.

http://www.spursreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5903&page=1&pp=20

:sadbanana:

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 10:31 PM
I just think these people, and Pop especially are pathetic if they can only talk about ONE game during the course of an 82 game regular season.

That right there should say how lame their arguments really are.

I love this by a poster with the handle Chip Douglas:
Artest scores so they give it to him, he comes out on sportcenter and fights, etc.

its sells papers, ratings, etc.

bowen is quieter, spurs less coverage nationally.

artest plays in the JV league, bowen in the varsity league.

nuff said.


Uh, when has Ron gotten into a fight, and how does that sell papers? And the Spurs getting less coverage than the Pacers, I don't think so. :unimpressed:

Hicks
04-26-2004, 10:33 PM
Yeah, like I said it's all pretty disappointing.

I'm actually pretty surpised what Pop said about Artest only guarding Kobe for 6 minutes and Reggie the rest.

If Pop doesn't realize that's abnormal for our game plan and Ron, it's his ignorance.

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 10:42 PM
We all know if Pop did this for Bowen that they'd think it's fine and wonderful. :rolleyes:

It just really baffles me at how little they know about Artest, and the Pacers, yet they continue to bash Rick for what they say are false records during ONE game of an 82 game year.

Things must be boring in San Antonio right now. At least this is giving us something to talk about.

Hicks
04-26-2004, 10:42 PM
Some of the more fair-minded posters are trying to ask in detail about what makes Ron a great defender, as they don't see him very often.

Can a couple of you register at the Spursreport (the forum I linked to earlier) and try to explain? I'd like to, but I really have no idea how to say it other than to call him great, which is a worthless description to someone wanting to learn about him.

Maybe UncleBuck and some others can go over their and put it into words for Ronnie. And whatever you do, don't go over there to start trouble. It's a good board over their, and right now it and this board have a respect for one another, and I want it to stay that way.

Here's the link again:

http://www.spursreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5903&page=2

MSA2CF
04-26-2004, 10:46 PM
OK Hicks, I registered.

Now where is all the info Carlisle put together when you need it? :D

Roaming Gnome
04-26-2004, 10:46 PM
This crap just puts me on a slow burn.... :pissed: But, what should I expect. They are not Pacer fans, so they have to come up with reasons why their guy didn't get the honor. I just pisses me off that it comes from their coach, not just the fans!

MSA2CF
04-26-2004, 10:49 PM
This crap just puts me on a slow burn.... :pissed:

Yeah, but it's sorta funny when you know you are right and they are just misinformed. (Kinda like my thread about Tim Legler earlier :blush:)

Hoop
04-26-2004, 10:49 PM
I'm really starting to hate every other freaking team in the league and their fans. I even hate when Pacers fans says stupid stuff on the various boards.

I just hope and pray we win it all this year, so I can tell them to go ***** themselfs.

Southside_Pacer
04-26-2004, 10:51 PM
I'll register, but our accounts just have to approved before we can tell the truth that will set them free. :P

Hicks
04-26-2004, 10:53 PM
Just remember to be polite you guys. Remember what it looks like when a non-Pacers fan would come here and just bash the Pacers. It'd go over like a led baloon. Defend Ron, but don't rip the Spurs in the process.

:angel:

TheSauceMaster
04-26-2004, 10:54 PM
well I don't know what you guys think you are gonna do other than anger those spurs fans , and since the admin posted this and got the fire started , don't be surprised if this turns into a good ole forum blood bath :laugh:

Hicks
04-26-2004, 10:54 PM
well I don't know what you guys think you are gonna do other than anger those spurs fans , and since the admin posted this and got the fire started , don't be surprised if this turns into a good ole forum blood bath :laugh:

No, I've made it known over there that I've said to play nice, and have already apologized in advance if anyone decides to ignore me. :)

Hicks
04-26-2004, 10:55 PM
well I don't know what you guys think you are gonna do other than anger those spurs fans , and since the admin posted this and got the fire started , don't be surprised if this turns into a good ole forum blood bath :laugh:

we dont want this

I mean, right, we dont want this :D

Seriously, no, we don't want this. They have a lot of good people over there.

Unclebuck
04-26-2004, 11:05 PM
I am not going to waste my time trying to convince them that Artest is a great defender.

That is like trying to convince someone that the sky is blue

TheSauceMaster
04-26-2004, 11:07 PM
I am not going to waste my time trying to convince them that Artest is a great defender.

That is like trying to convince someone that the sky is blue

Exactly UB :D

able
04-26-2004, 11:07 PM
the fun parts of this "discussion" about this somewhat less smart move of pop, that it will indeed motivate our players a little more and that his collegues and he himself made Ron the leading vote getter for All NBA Defenisve 1st.

Now unless he thinks Rick also called all the coaches and they to all listen to Rick (the suggestion that is hidden in the statement that the "lobbying" actually convinced so MANY reporters (see the actual voting; 82 first places) in which case there would be a hell of a lot more media coverage on the Pacers then there is now, is so outrageous that it becomes preposterous to even seriously consider these remarks.

6 minutes on Kobe? wow, and we believe those "stats" upfront? what is his proof? his eyes? are they exactly what they were?

The only game he can refer to in that case (and one wonders why the hell he is looking at tapes from that time of year) is the game in LA on November 30th in which KB scored 12 pints on 4 - 10 shooting n 36 minutes and LA killed us because A. we were in a bad patch, B. had Kenny as starting PG with 2 Ast and 3 TO's and in which Artest played, unliek Ron, 26 minutes, shortly before the "outburst" and Tins' return to the PG spot.

It can only be what one Spurs fan suggested, Pop is playing games to get into Ron's or the team's mind.
In effect therefore it is a great compliment, since he obviously finds it more important to see what the P's are doing in a game against the Lakers in November then what the Lakers are doing, his next opponent.

He is seemingly sure he will play us in the finals :D

thanks pop ;)

Hicks
04-26-2004, 11:15 PM
I am not going to waste my time trying to convince them that Artest is a great defender.

That is like trying to convince someone that the sky is blue

I hope you change your mind. There really are some good posters over there, they just don't know much about Artest is all.

Southside_Pacer
04-27-2004, 12:01 AM
Since Hicks requested, I decided I'd help him out and give prespective on Ron and the Indiana Pacers this basketball season.

For starters, I really have no idea why Pop even brought up Artest, and why he even cares that Carlisle campaigned for the award. For a man of his character, this was totally out of the ordinary and I don't know really what to think of it.

Ron did deserve the defensive player of the year award, and Pop using only ONE game out of a season that features 82 games is pretty baseless. There's more to defense that rebounding, blocked shots, and steals. Defense to me is giving your man hell for 48 minutes all over the court and that's what Ron does. Ron's also a guy that is very smart basketball IQ wise, and is a very tough player. Not every player in the league can have surgery done on his thumb, and miss the minimum number of games before returning.

Ron goes up against the Carmelo Anthony's, the Latrell Sprewell's, the LeBron James', the Paul Pierce's, the Tracy McGrady's, etc., each night of the season. Defense is his main forte, it's what he loves doing, and that's what motivates him.

Notice how Pop never brought up any other of the games during the season? Notice how he never mentioned what he did against Paul Pierce in the playoffs, or what he did to Carmelo Anthony or Spree?

Unless he goes and looks at Pacers games tape by tape, how can he rebuttle the numbers that the Pacers staff compiled? One game in which he says he's watched cannot do that. Why is he even looking at a Pacers/Lakers game from so far back in the season anyways? Unless Pop feels that the Pacers might be the Spurs competition in the NBA finals, and the Lakers are obviously going to be the Spurs' next round opponet.

I highly doubt that you guys have seen the Pacers all that much this season since we are not on national TV all that often. It's not your fault that you haven't, we just weren't a "sexy" team when the league released it's TV schedules. With the season we had last year, we didn't deserve it. However, that just proves my point that Spurs fans, and Pop, have not seen Ron play defense against the leagues top guards in both conferences night in and night out.

When/If the Pacers players and Carlisle hear this, I'm sure it'll give them even more motivation than they're using now. This team simply has been disrespected all season long. We're not a "sexy" team with mega superstars, or players who grab headlines with their antics. Just like the Spurs, we go about our business quietly.

To the one poster who said Ron comes out on SportsCenter and fights, that is not true this year. Name me a time this season he has been suspended for a fight? Against Sacto the league admitted they were WRONG in suspending him. The game against Portland they ruled his shot against them on defense a flagrant after the fact and Portland didn't even feel that the suspension should have happend.

And how has Artest doing nothing this season to really draw attention to himself sell papers and get TV ratings? The Pacers don't get on TV because of Ron, we don't even get on TV due to our record and seeding.

Ron made all Defensive Team and that was voted on by the coaches, Pop's and Rick's collegues obviously thought he was worthy. Simple fact is that Ron was an all star reserve this year, Bowen was not. Ron is the defensive player of the year, Bowen was not. Artest is NBA Third Team, Bowen was not.

Rick can campaign all he wants and that doesn't lessen his ability to coach, or make him a whiner as some people feel that he is. He's won 50+ games in his first three seasons as a head coach, and has won three straight division championships. Only one other coach can say that....

[hr]

There ya go.

SycamoreKen
04-27-2004, 12:33 AM
Thanks for the link to SpursReport. The language and bs at the other place is wearing thin. I heard the bit live today and was surprised at Pop saying what he did about Artest. Here is my reply at the other board:

I was listening to the show today when Pop made his comments. I can understand and agree with his point on the "unofficial" statistics and how little they really mean. Stats are easy to bend around to make a point, so those should have been thrown out before anyone voted.

I can also see him not agreeing with campaigning for his players, but as it has already been stated and I'm sure he knows, Carlise did it more to give his guys a good vibe than to get them the awards. He strokes O'neil's ego and confirms he is his man after the preseason bumps. Artest gets another pat on the back for straightening himself out this season. Harrington gets some love from a coach that can't start him even though Al want to. All 3 guys are still fairly young, not salty vets like Bowen.

The one thing I did take issue with was his saying Artest was more show than go and then pointing out and example. Before posting i looked up the game he must have been referring to on NBA.com, link below. Kobi only played in one of the 2 ames between the teams on November 30.

http://www.nba.com/games/20031130/INDLAL/boxscore.html

The first thing I looked at were the minutes played. Kobi played 36, with Reggie and Ron getting 25 and 26 respectively. So obviously Reggie didn't guard him "the rest of the game," but that isn't all. I then noticed Ron had 4 fouls. Hmmm, could this be the reason they changed men. I then went to the play-by-play page and found Artest had his 2nd foul by the 3:30 mark of the first quarter and was taken out shortly afterward. Itís kind of hard to guard him when you're not in the game. At the 2:58 mark of the 3rd quarter Artest gets his 4th foul (the third one isn't listed for some reason). by this time the Pacers are getting pounded.

My point with this is, Artest was probably not guarding Kobi because they couldn't afford to lose their 2nd best player in a big game. Granted, he had a bad game anyway, but the switch had to be made. It's interesting that Pop chose this game to highlight Artest's "fear" of good players. I'd have to go back and check some other games, but he never shied away from McGrady, James, Carter, Pierce, Allen or Peja. Oh yea, most of those guys are in the East and suck.

I respect Pop a lot and like Bowen and all of the Spurs. I was kind of surprised that a guy that "doesn't care" about this stuff made such a big deal about it. Maybe he is looking ahead.


One guy came back with "how did he do against Iverson?" I pointed out that Artest probably did not guard him since he is really a point, but I have no idea. I do know Bowen fouled out while AI scored 36, so Bowen didn't guard him either.

Shade
04-27-2004, 12:55 AM
This is a HUGE disappointment to me. I always liked the Spurs and thought they were a class act, but Poppovich just negated all the good feelings I had about the Spurs.

What a jackass.

Millerartest
04-27-2004, 02:20 AM
I read some of their links. It just makes me appreciate this board all the more. Using profanity and slandering people is childish. The Spurs coach sounds like a whiner from the way the board is talking. I would suspect subconsiously he thinks they can take the West but isn't sure they can beat us in the Finals. Our defense can match theirs. JO can potentially (big word there) cancel out Duncan. They'll run circles around us at the PG, but we have the edge with youthful energy, the bench, Artest, Miller and Bender.

Reggie4Three
04-27-2004, 03:04 AM
I think the Spurs are a classy organization in spite of their coach. I have not respected him since he let Bob Hill take the fall for the season they played without Robinson (helping them draft Duncan) and then he jumps in once they draft Duncan. Set himself up great for that one I guess. :rolleyes:

Defensive Player of the Year is perhaps the MOST subjective award the NBA has. How do you compare Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest defensively? It is impossible to do objectively. Here's how this award is most likely determined.

Take a list of all the great rebounder/shot blockers in the league and add a few of the premier perimeter defenders off of good teams. Throw out all the players that are on bad teams. Narrow it down to the best defender statwise (Wallace) and a premier perimeter defenders off the best teams in the NBA (Artest and Bowen). Wallace had it last year, and Artest's team had the top record in the NBA. Artest gets more notice than Bowen because he is near equal, if not in fact better defensively but is also a bigger factor on the offensive end. Also factor in that the Pacers had the best record in the league this year and did not have the MVP, Coach of the Year, or a 1st team all-NBA player. You would think the voters would probably feel like they should vote at least one Pacer an award. Oh yeah, and Rick made a few phone calls too. All of those reasons can factor into him winning the award.

If one wants to argue that one of those reasons are less legitimate than others, so be it. What you cannot say objectively is that Ron absolutely DID NOT deserve the award. You can't say that Bowen or Wallace was certainly a better defensive player than Artest. I don't think any of us would have had a problem if he would've said "You really can't appreciate how good of a defender Bruce is unless you watch us, and him, consistently. I would take him over any other player in the NBA to guard the opponent's best guard, and I think he should've been the DPOY." Instead, he tried to take an ignorant position by suggesting that Ron doesn't want to guard or is afraid to guard the best. That's such a moronic and inaccurate statement that I would take serious offense to it if I were Rick, Ron, or any Pacer. Fortunately, though, nobody really cares what he thinks. If it were to come from Phil Jackson or someone with a higher profile, it would be all over the place and some casual fans might attribute some truth to it. Because Pop said it, most people outside of San Antonio and this message board will not hear it or care about it.

obnoxiousmodesty
04-27-2004, 08:42 AM
Wow, I was surprised by the vindictive nature of Pop's words. He's right in saying the statistics compiled by the Pacers are unproven, but to bash Ron Artest in that manner is ridiculous. I have very rarely seen Bruce Bowen play this season, but I know he's a very good defender. Pop portrayed Ron as a player who doesn't do a damn thing on the defensive end. Yeesh.

This will be good fodder for the Finals, if the matchup occurs.

Unclebuck
04-27-2004, 09:04 AM
Perhaps I should post this on the Spurs site.

Artest has two weaknesses as a defender. He is not that good at following players around screens. he struggles with Rip Hamilton for that very reason. One reason for this is that Ronnie is a little bigger and is easier to pick off.

The other weakness is that he has trouble against very quick players who are very decisive in their moves. Those that don't stand their dribbling.

In those two areas Bruce Bowen is better. he is great at both of those areas.

I'll go so far as to say that I don't know if Ronnie is better than Bruce at guarding Kobe. I don't know.

I obviosuly watch every Pacer game, but I probably watch 15-20 Spurs games a season and I strongly believe that Artest has more impact on the defensive end that Bowen does. Artest wears the opponent down and usually takes their best player away

Unclebuck
04-27-2004, 09:06 AM
Perhaps I should post this on the Spurs site.

Artest has two weaknesses as a defender. He is not that good at following players around screens. he struggles with Rip Hamilton for that very reason. One reason for this is that Ronnie is a little bigger and is easier to pick off.

The other weakness is that he has trouble against very quick players who are very decisive in their moves. Those that don't stand there dribbling.

In those two areas Bruce Bowen is better. he is great at both of those areas.

I'll go so far as to say that I don't know if Ronnie is better than Bruce at guarding Kobe. I don't know.

I obviosuly watch every Pacer game, but I probably watch 15-20 Spurs games a season and I strongly believe that Artest has more impact on the defensive end that Bowen does. Artest wears the opponent down and usually takes their best player away.

One other thing, until this season Artest gambled too much and he was not that good a team defender, but that has changed with better coaching

MagicRat
04-27-2004, 09:15 AM
Somebody will have to remind me who was guarding Reggie when he went for 28 against the Spurs this season at Conseco.....

fwpacerfan
04-27-2004, 10:02 AM
I think Carlisle and his staff need to send the game tapes to Popovich and have him disprove their statistics.

Southside_Pacer
04-27-2004, 10:30 AM
I still challenge Pop to find a staff, and go through every series that Artest has guarded somebody in and disprove the statistics. Until he does that, how can he say that they've been falsified?

Hicks
04-27-2004, 10:49 AM
I see southside's post, but where did the rest of you post yours? Did you try to start your own thread and they were deleted, or did you try to respond to the already existing thread (which would have been correct)?

Ragnar
04-27-2004, 10:52 AM
I think a lot of the other coaches are upset with Rick for lobbying for his players because now they have to explain to their players why they did not do the same for them. In the past they did not say anything about it because the media did not mention it very much. Not anymore the media made a huge deal out of it this year and the coaches are emarrased.

How would you like it if you top defensive guy came to you and asked who did you call on my behalf? Only to have to tell them I didnt call anyone. They call Rick a media whore but I dont recal a single reporter saying that Rick had lobbied them about coach of the year.

Reggie4Three
04-27-2004, 10:53 AM
Popovich should have more to worry about than how Rick Carlisle spends his time. Perhaps he's embarassed that Carlisle had time to coach his team to 60 wins AND campaign for his players.

I'm not too sure that all this talk of him "campaigning" for his players isn't way overblown anyway. Because alot of what players like Bowen and Artest do on defense can't be measured in stats, Rick wanted to have some type of tangible basis to measure Ron's ability since it won't be completely reflected in rebounds and blocks like Garnett or Wallace. He will be paying people out of his own pocket for their work on this.

In that sense, if you want to say he campaigned, fine. Other than paying for that research and making it available to media, what did he do? He called a few of his media friends to try to convince them to vote for Ron? Big deal. I would be surprised if every NBA coach doesn't keep a few friends in the media that he would promote his players to.

Even IF Rick did campaign for his players and even IF it were a violation of professional etiquette as has been claimed by Greg Popovich, I still like that Rick did it. It's far more important to the Pacers that JO and Ron Artest are happy with Rick Carlisle than it is for Greg Popovich to like him. As I said before, I'm wondering if there is really anyone outside of San Antonio and a few Pacer fans that cares what he has to say about that or anything else.

indygeezer
04-27-2004, 11:24 AM
Ragnar expressed my feelings on the matter to a "T".


Perhaps "pops" is just steamed that we created a new coaching title that allowed us to get Mike Brown away from him.


I'm really amazed how easily we've been dismissed by everyone. A one point loss anc a victory over the Spurs should account for some credit.

Trace
04-27-2004, 12:12 PM
The one thing I agree with Pop about is those stats. When the Pacers announced the 9.8ppg (or whatever it was) for Artest's opponents, I thought "gee that's interesting...it doesn't tell us much though."

Is that a good number? (It sounds good :whoknows: ). But what do Ben Wallace's, Bruce Bowen's, or Kobe Bryant's opponents average? Those stats don't have any context. For all we know there are several players that would have better stats, if they were compiled in exactly the same way, but there is no standardized rule for how to compile and measure them. Furthermore, the people that did compile them were far from objective.

They were interesting as an illustration for the job Artest does, but it was really cheesy for the NBA to tout them and declare them along with his award.

DisplacedKnick
04-27-2004, 12:27 PM
Interesting that a Spurs coach is so focussed on a Pacers player this early in the playoffs.

I suppose he'd say that Artest didn't have anything to do with Pierce shooting 34% vs the Pacers in the 1st rd.

Those threads make for interesting reading anyway which is nice since I'm bored.

able
04-27-2004, 12:30 PM
The one thing I agree with Pop about is those stats. When the Pacers announced the 9.8ppg (or whatever it was) for Artest's opponents, I thought "gee that's interesting...it doesn't tell us much though."

Is that a good number? (It sounds good :whoknows: ). But what do Ben Wallace's, Bruce Bowen's, or Kobe Bryant's opponents average? Those stats don't have any context. For all we know there are several players that would have better stats, if they were compiled in exactly the same way, but there is no standardized rule for how to compile and measure them. Furthermore, the people that did compile them were far from objective.

They were interesting as an illustration for the job Artest does, but it was really cheesy for the NBA to tout them and declare them along with his award.

Stats have the value to those that compile them looking for a specific answer based upon which the input is given.

I have not seen the stats, just the outcome, I am sure they will hold value to those who are familiar with every aspect of the finding, gathering and outcome.

To blame Rick or the Pacers for the NBA using these is ridiculous, as would be the assertion that every reporter has used these to defend his vote.

What the NBA and the reporters do with the data supplied (I have no idea what was supplied, we only read the "outcome") is their responsibility, not ours.

To blame Rick for creating them has of course very little to do with the real achievement of Ron.

Rick standing behind his players and team is something to compliment him on, not trash him , just beacuse you didn't think of it.

DisplacedKnick
04-27-2004, 12:49 PM
Well, if you guys really want to have fun, check the plus/minus numbers for Bowen vs Artest on 82games.com.

Artest is a plus 9.6, 13th in the league (Pacers are a plus 8.7 team when he's on the floor, minus .9 when he's off.

The Spurs are at plus 7.3 when Bowen's on the floor and a plus 7.3 when he's off, making his net impact a zero.

http://www.82games.com/

TheSauceMaster
04-27-2004, 01:50 PM
I would actually like to know more specfics of how these numbers came to light , maybe I am the only pacer fan that is some what skeptical of these numbers also.

BillS
04-27-2004, 02:26 PM
I think the numbers showed what they were meant to show.

Basically, most stat sheets show what a player did during the game and don't take into account who was guearding him. This is why perhaps a Paul Pierce might show 27 points when Artest (say) only guarded him for a few minutes for whatever reason.

My understanding is that Rick had assistants go through game films and observe the performance of players Ron was actually guarding.

The numbers they came up with are no better or worse than most statistics - they wouldn't say, for example, whether Ron being on the bench was due to fouls committed during defense (which should count against him) or because he was pulled during garbage time (which should not).

At bottom, they are simply statistics, but to go after someone for gathering them rather than showing them to be specifically flawed or gather similar statistics for your own point of view is not the way to present a counter-argument. Unless you're a poster on this board, of course. :o

Unclebuck
04-27-2004, 02:28 PM
Those defensive numbers that Carlisle had the intern uncover mean nothing to me.

So whether they are bogus or gospel, I don't care.

I judge things like this by what I see on the court.

BillS
04-27-2004, 02:30 PM
Those defensive numbers that Carlisle had the intern uncover mean nothing to me.

So whether they are bogus or gospel, I don't care.

I judge things like this by what I see on the court.

And, of course, the reason Rick had the statistics done were because few voters for DPOY get to see Ron on the court more than once or twice, since he isn't in the highlights or nationally televised - they would see him only when he played a game they were covering or involved in.

Unclebuck
04-27-2004, 02:36 PM
Those defensive numbers that Carlisle had the intern uncover mean nothing to me.

So whether they are bogus or gospel, I don't care.

I judge things like this by what I see on the court.

And, of course, the reason Rick had the statistics done were because few voters for DPOY get to see Ron on the court more than once or twice, since he isn't in the highlights or nationally televised - they would see him only when he played a game they were covering or involved in.


True, very true. I know why Rick did it, it was smart thing to do.

But I don't need those numbers to convince me. And without doing that for every player in the league, I don't know if those numbers are good or not.

Southside_Pacer
04-27-2004, 02:43 PM
I do believe that Bill is on to something. We're not on national TV hardly, nor should we have been all that much after the way our season ended last year. However, we should have gotten some games picked up by the media as the year went on, but that's a different story....

Rick did this to get Ron Artest's name out to the national media since we all know that as far as they are concerned, there's no professional basketball team in the state of Indiana. It succeed as Artest has now gotten national attention for the defense that he does play. At least Ron is now getting publicity for what he does on the court, and not what he does off of it.

Until somebody can disprove what Carlisle's staff compiled, I'm not going to object it. As Ken pointed out, Pop's argument is really weak if he's just going to use a game we played against the Lakers back in the early part of the season when Ron was in foul problems. In fact, if he's just going to use that one game he has no point at all, which makes him look really stupid.

It's up to the other coaches to disprove the Pacers staff's numbers if they feel they are bogus, and compile numbers in behalf of their players showing that they indeed have better numbers.

TheSauceMaster
04-27-2004, 02:52 PM
But I don't need those numbers to convince me. And without doing that for every player in the league, I don't know if those numbers are good or not.

You hit the nail right on the head there UB :D

BillS
04-27-2004, 02:55 PM
But I don't need those numbers to convince me. And without doing that for every player in the league, I don't know if those numbers are good or not.

You hit the nail right on the head there UB :D

I don't disagree, but you can bet the league isn't going to do it and the individual media guys don't have the time to break down 82 games for every potential DPOY candidate in the league.

Answer - hey, if Rick is successful doing it, then you better have someone on your own staff do the same. Heck, what else is an intern good for except when it's pony time in the locker room ... :o

MagicRat
04-27-2004, 03:00 PM
As Ken pointed out, Pop's argument is really weak if he's just going to use a game we played against the Lakers back in the early part of the season when Ron was in foul problems...

If he's just going to use that game, I suppose Reggie and Fred should've shared DPOY since Kobe only got a dozen.....

Pooh
04-27-2004, 03:44 PM
here is the link to the audio for those who haven't heard Pop's baby "rant" yet.

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/pop4-26-04part2.mp3

fwpacerfan
04-27-2004, 05:38 PM
I think a lot of the other coaches are upset with Rick for lobbying for his players because now they have to explain to their players why they did not do the same for them. In the past they did not say anything about it because the media did not mention it very much. Not anymore the media made a huge deal out of it this year and the coaches are emarrased.

How would you like it if you top defensive guy came to you and asked who did you call on my behalf? Only to have to tell them I didnt call anyone. They call Rick a media whore but I dont recal a single reporter saying that Rick had lobbied them about coach of the year.

Excellent post - there is a lot of jealousy going on. The "lobbying" Carlisle did for one of his players is the reason this team will run through walls for him. Stepping up and doing this for one of your players shows that you are not only there to make the team successful but you are there to help each individual player become the best they can be. Carlisle obviously cares about these guys and they in return truly believe and trust in him. These are all things I don't think most of these players have seen before.

I think this shows why the same group of players who seemed to have a 'me first' attitude last year are now on the same page and working for each other - they see it exemplifed day in and day out by the coaches. I think Carlisle should be applauded not villified for what he did. :applaud:

Hicks
04-27-2004, 05:41 PM
I think a lot of the other coaches are upset with Rick for lobbying for his players because now they have to explain to their players why they did not do the same for them. In the past they did not say anything about it because the media did not mention it very much. Not anymore the media made a huge deal out of it this year and the coaches are emarrased.

How would you like it if you top defensive guy came to you and asked who did you call on my behalf? Only to have to tell them I didnt call anyone. They call Rick a media whore but I dont recal a single reporter saying that Rick had lobbied them about coach of the year.

Excellent post - there is a lot of jealousy going on. The "lobbying" Carlisle did for one of his players is the reason this team will run through walls for him. Stepping up and doing this for one of your players shows that you are not only there to make the team successful but you are there to help each individual player become the best they can be. Carlisle obviously cares about these guys and they in return truly believe and trust in him. These are all things I don't think most of these players have seen before.

I think this shows why the same group of players who seemed to have a 'me first' attitude last year are now on the same page and working for each other - they see it exemplifed day in and day out by the coaches. I think Carlisle should be applauded not villified for what he did. :applaud:

WELL SAID. :dance:

ChicagoJ
04-27-2004, 06:25 PM
I think the Spurs are a classy organization in spite of their coach. I have not respected him since he let Bob Hill take the fall for the season they played without Robinson (helping them draft Duncan) and then he jumps in once they draft Duncan. Set himself up great for that one I guess. :rolleyes:

AMEN!

What he did to Bo was gutless, classless, whatever you want to call it. Not just fired him after Bo won 61 games the season before with Chuck Person as his starting POWER FORWARD (unless you think Sean Elliot was playing PF?), but competely blacklisted him. Repulsive. Chuck missed all 82 games that season, D-Rob missed more than 70. Elliot and Charles Smith each missed more than forty. Dominique, at age 432,534,599,393 was thier leading scorer. Nobody could win with that team, nobody. But Pop fires Bo, names himself coach, blacklists Bo, then tells everyone he's a genious when they draft Duncan, get everyone healthy, and resume thier winning ways.

I actually like Phil Jackson better than I like Pop. That ought to tell you something.

I didn't even read the rest of what you said, I'll get back to it later tonight but Jay's_Daughter@Section222 has a recital first...

Raw Sewage > Popovich

Reggie4Three
04-27-2004, 06:31 PM
I think the Spurs are a classy organization in spite of their coach. I have not respected him since he let Bob Hill take the fall for the season they played without Robinson (helping them draft Duncan) and then he jumps in once they draft Duncan. Set himself up great for that one I guess. :rolleyes:

AMEN!

What he did to Bo was gutless, classless, whatever you want to call it. Not just fired him after Bo won 61 games the season before with Chuck Person as his starting POWER FORWARD (unless you think Sean Elliot was playing PF?), but competely blacklisted him. Repulsive. Chuck missed all 82 games that season, D-Rob missed more than 70. Elliot and Charles Smith each missed more than forty. Dominique, at age 432,534,599,393 was thier leading scorer. Nobody could win with that team, nobody. But Pop fires Bo, names himself coach, blacklists Bo, then tells everyone he's a genious when they draft Duncan, get everyone healthy, and resume thier winning ways.

I actually like Phil Jackson better than I like Pop. That ought to tell you something.

I didn't even read the rest of what you said, I'll get back to it later tonight but Jay's_Daughter@Section222 has a recital first...

Raw Sewage > Popovich

I did not know that he blacklisted him. I am surprised that enough people care enough what he thinks to not hire Bob Hill anyway. If that's true, I completely despise Popovich. Like you, I hate the arrogant jerk that is Phil Jackson, but anyone that would do what you claimed Popovich did here is complete scum.

Suaveness
04-27-2004, 07:57 PM
If anyone is curious, ESPN now has an article....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1791061

Artest reacts to Popovich, wants Bowen 1-on-1

INDIANAPOLIS -- Indiana forward Ron Artest challenged Bruce Bowen to a game of one-on-one for the NBA Defensive Player of the Year award Tuesday, one day after Spurs coach Gregg Popovich criticized Artest and Pacers coach Rick Carlisle.



"Tell his coach, 'Let's play one-on-one for the award,"' Artest said after practice. "I'll give it to him if he can beat me."



Popovich appeared Monday on a San Antonio radio station and said Bowen was more deserving of the award, which Artest won by a wide margin. Bowen finished fourth in the voting.



"Bruce guards the best player on the other team almost every single night," Popovich said. "Artest doesn't do that. Artest just looks the part. He looks like a big, tough guy. He whacks and gets knocked out of the game once in a while."



Popovich also criticized Carlisle for openly campaigning for his player. Carlisle called voting members of the media to lobby for his player and had two assistants break down film of Artest to come up with supporting statistics.



Carlisle said the project showed that Artest held opponents to an average of 9.4 shots and 8.1 points a game when he was matched up one-on-one. The NBA used those numbers when announcing Artest the winner.



"What a bunch of baloney," Popovich said. "Totally unsubstantiated stats put out by Indiana. The media bought it and then the NBA printed those stats. I am amazed by that.



"We'll never do that," Popovich said of the campaign. "It's not our style. It makes no sense. And we'll certainly not throw out stats that are totally unsubstantiated. There's no way to substantiate them. It's like grabbing four guys off the street and putting them in a film room and saying to come up with some stats on this guy. It's just a joke and it really angered me when I saw that the NBA actually printed those stats when they announced the media's choice of Defensive Player of the Year as if they were real stats. There is no such stat."



The comments were posted on a San Antonio television station's Web site and didn't take long to find their way to Indiana, where the Pacers are awaiting the outcome of the Miami-New Orleans series after their four-game sweep of the Boston Celtics in the first round.



Artest said he wished Popovich would have spoken to him directly rather than commenting through the media.


"It's not hard to get in touch with me," Artest said. "All you have to do is call the Pacers office and ask for my phone number. You can speak to me instead of going to the papers. He's taken a lot of positives away from it. Talk to the Pacers and call me. Let me know I didn't deserve it so I don't have to hear it from (the media)."



Carlisle said he thought Popovich never would have made the remarks had he known they would make their way on to the Internet.



"I understand where Pop's coming from," Carlisle said. "He has a strong belief in his player and obviously I have a strong belief in mine."



As for his campaigning, Carlisle pointed to the NBA All-Defensive team announced on Monday. Coaches vote for the teams, not the media, and Artest's 26 First-Team votes were more than any other player. Bowen was also named to the First Team, receiving 18 votes.



"The one thing I will agree with Pop on is that the coaches' vote is the most important," Carlisle said. "In the coaches' vote, Ron was clearly the highest vote-getter. It really should make any arguments moot on who the best defensive player was."



Nothing really new.

kolko
04-27-2004, 08:11 PM
Here you have the Part 2 of "The Pop Show" where he talks about Ron:

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/pop4-26-04part2.mp3

And Rick appeared on the same radio today, here you have the file:

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/carlislestsa.mp3

Indyfan
04-27-2004, 08:58 PM
Here you have the Part 2 of "The Pop Show" where he talks about Ron:

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/pop4-26-04part2.mp3

And Rick appeared on the same radio today, here you have the file:

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/carlislestsa.mp3

[I loved that and I loved Carlisle's last comment

"I told him I was gonna kick his *** when I see him in person"

Agreed! That was really funny.


Kolko - Thanks for posting the link, that was great to hear. Rick is a class act, even defending Pop when he could have fired back at him.

:gopacers:

Southside_Pacer
04-27-2004, 09:20 PM
I tried listening to all of what Pop had to say, but I had to get rid of that window since his comments just pissed me off too much. I already knew what he was going to say anyways. The cheapshots the hosts had on us were really cute too. :unimpressed:

I thought Rick handled himself very well on their show in San Antonio. He didn't even have to go on the air down there, and he did.

Hoop
04-27-2004, 10:33 PM
Rumor has it in San Antonio that the players were very unhappy with Bob Hill and that Robinson and Avery Johnson came to Popovich asking that Hill be removed. Hill later went on to coach Fordham to the bottom of their league with the worst record in school history, 2-26. After four years he was bought out of a ten year contract.

Not the way I remember it, the players liked Bo Hill and didn't want him fired. Hill had a decent NBA coaching record for the situations he was in, before Larry Brown arrived he was one of the Pacers most successful coaches in the NBA.

Fordham was much improved this year, they went 6-22, they didn't get a Duncan to go with their new coach. :laugh:

whodean
04-27-2004, 10:56 PM
Tell ya what, BenWallace will take on either Bowen OR Artest one-on-one any day.

MagicRat
04-27-2004, 11:14 PM
Tell ya what, BenWallace will take on either Bowen OR Artest one-on-one any day.

Ben isn't much bigger than Ron, so I don't think he'd be able to overpower him. Plus, Ron's offensive game is much better.

I'm going with Ron - 21-15........ :dance:

Shade
04-27-2004, 11:21 PM
Tell ya what, BenWallace will take on either Bowen OR Artest one-on-one any day.

Funny. I didn't hear HIM say that. :rolleyes:

Shade
04-27-2004, 11:30 PM
You have to be able to SCORE to win a one-on-one match. :laugh:

Wallace makes Bowen look like vintage Reggie on offense. :laugh: