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RoboHicks
10-09-2006, 08:10 PM
Former Indiana Pacers star Reggie Millersaid Tuesday he doesn't understand why Stephen Jackson's teammatesare standing by him following a violent incident outside anIndianapolis strip club.

More... (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2618878&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines)

Trader Joe
10-09-2006, 08:13 PM
Uh oh, the great one has spoken. This is gonna hurt Jax more than anything else IMO.

Destined4Greatness
10-09-2006, 08:13 PM
I doubt whether or not Reggie knows whose Idea it was to go to the strip club. My guess he is assuming and thats just stupid. Look these are big boys reggie, they have minds of their own.

Not everybody is a saint like you reggie, just because you would need pressure to go somewhere like a strip club doesn't mean that these guys didn't jump at the possibility and thats if Jackson invited them

Los Angeles
10-09-2006, 08:14 PM
Former Pacers great Miller blasts Jackson's behaviorAssociated Press

INDIANAPOLIS -- Former Indiana Pacers star Reggie Miller said Tuesday he doesn't understand why Stephen Jackson's teammates are standing by him following a violent incident outside an Indianapolis strip club.

"You shouldn't stand behind a player that is someone slapping you guys in the face during the middle of training camp being out at a strip club at 3 o'clock in the morning shooting it up like it's the Wild, Wild West."

Reggie Miller

Police said Jackson fired a gun in the air in apparent self-defense early Friday after he was slugged in the mouth and struck by a car that sent him tumbling onto the hood.

Miller, who played 18 years for the Pacers and is the NBA's career leader in 3-pointers, spoke out about the incident Tuesday on Dan Patrick's ESPN Radio show.

"That's ridiculous," Miller said. "That is a black cloud. That is a punch in the gut for [team CEO] Donnie Walsh and [team president] Larry Bird.''

AP/Charles Krupa

Is there enough left in the tank for one more heroic act?

The Pacers have an aggressive preseason publicity campaign, with television ads and billboards featuring players and the "It's up to us" slogan.

Even Jackson, who was suspended 30 games for his role in the brawl with Detroit Pistons fans two seasons ago and often was at odds with coach Rick Carlisle last season, talked about spending a summer "soul-searching" and returning with a positive attitude.

The Pacers didn't even make it to their preseason opener before their latest public relations mess. The Pacers have rallied around Jackson, and Miller disagreed with that on Patrick's show.

"You shouldn't stand behind a player that is someone slapping you guys in the face during the middle of training camp being out at a strip club at 3 o'clock in the morning shooting it up like it's the Wild, Wild West," he said.

Miller, now a TNT basketball analyst, ended his career following the 2004-05 season. He was a five-time All-Star, led the NBA in free throw percentage five times and is No. 12 on the league's career scoring list.

Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press

Los Angeles
10-09-2006, 08:15 PM
Look these are big boys reggie, they have minds of their own.

Two of the most disputed "facts".

Romsey31
10-09-2006, 08:18 PM
I doubt whether or not Reggie knows whose Idea it was to go to the strip club. My guess he is assuming and thats just stupid. Look these are big boys reggie, they have minds of their own.

Not everybody is a saint like you reggie, just because you would need pressure to go somewhere like a strip club doesn't mean that these guys didn't jump at the possibility and thats if Jackson invited them
Look at Reggies career, hes FAR FROM a saint. Reggie *****ed to Refs way more than Jax and got in alot of fights ON THE COURT infront of millions of fans and kids. How bout the fight Barkley got in when he and Reggie went to the club? Quite frankly Reggie should be the last person to comment on this topic.


& this is coming from Millers biggest fan.

heywoode
10-09-2006, 08:24 PM
It's really sad how Jackson homers dismiss anybody's opinion that doesn't agree with theirs. At least some people are willing to listen to other opinions. Reggie knows as much or more about what happened as the rest of us and it hasn't stopped most of us from stating our opinions.

Reggie has the same right as anyone else to state his opinion. Quite frankly, I respect his opinion a whole lot more than a lot of short sighted people around here right now that don't want to see the big picture that is the TRUTH.

It is a PR nightmare, and a bad situation all the way around. Period. Anybody that can't see that has their head in the sand.

Man, when are people going to figure out that there's more to life than ****ing basketball?

Destined4Greatness
10-09-2006, 08:26 PM
It's really sad how Jackson homers dismiss anybody's opinion that doesn't agree with theirs. At least some people are willing to listen to other opinions. Reggie knows as much or more about what happened as the rest of us and it hasn't stopped most of us from stating our opinions.

Reggie has the same right as anyone else to state his opinion. Quite frankly, I respect his opinion a whole lot more than a lot of short sighted people around here right now that don't want to see the big picture that is the TRUTH.

It is a PR nightmare, and a bad situation all the way around. Period. Anybody that can't see that has their head in the sand.

Man, when are people going to figure out that there's more to life than ****ing basketball?

OK, so you are saying we don't have the right to post our opinion about Reggies opinion. Because everybody is entitled to their opinion. Hypocrite.

vapacersfan
10-09-2006, 08:31 PM
Look at Reggies career, hes FAR FROM a saint. Reggie *****ed to Refs way more than Jax and got in alot of fights ON THE COURT infront of millions of fans and kids. How bout the fight Barkley got in when he and Reggie went to the club? Quite frankly Reggie should be the last person to comment on this topic.


& this is coming from Millers biggest fan.

False.

D-BONE
10-09-2006, 08:32 PM
Look at Reggies career, hes FAR FROM a saint. Reggie *****ed to Refs way more than Jax and got in alot of fights ON THE COURT infront of millions of fans and kids. How bout the fight Barkley got in when he and Reggie went to the club? Quite frankly Reggie should be the last person to comment on this topic.


& this is coming from Millers biggest fan.

You make a good point here. Something like this occured to me, too, when I hear a clip from the Dan Patrick Show segment. I am more than willing to listen to his opinion. He was a a great performer and professional, but their is a little tinge of hypocrisy in his comments.

Although he can always claim to never have gotten into this ugly an incident at a strip club as far as I know. I think Reg is firing it up partly to make sure he falls in line with the holier than thou sports journalsists that frequent shows and networks like the one he was interviewed on and partly because he truly feels for the difficulty of his franchise.

heywoode
10-09-2006, 08:34 PM
OK, so you are saying we don't have the right to post our opinion about Reggies opinion. Because everybody is entitled to their opinion. Hypocrite.

Hey, I haven't said anyone doesn't have the right to state their opinion. In fact, all the Jackson apologists have stated their opinions over and over and over with every new damning piece of information that has come out.

You have the right to state your opinion.

Please try to keep the argument where it should be...I didn't create the situation by using bad judgment...But of course, we wouldn't want to place any blame on the people who did....We should forgive them and support them because they are lucky enough to wear a Pacer uniform, which they have done nothing but soil since they got here.

I'm EMBARRASSED to be a Pacer fan right now, and I'm not alone. I know the people who support Jackson aren't alone either, but can you honestly say you are proud of him? If you can, then I can't fathom what goes through your head.

But that's JUST MY OPINION. What do I know?

Ryan
10-09-2006, 08:53 PM
Is there enough left in the tank for one more heroic act?

I wish.

indygeezer
10-09-2006, 08:56 PM
Yep, RM did all that and more. AND he's seen Action in Action. He's played on the same team, eaten with him, partied with him, travelled and celebrated with him. He more than anyone here has a right to comment because HE KNOWS THE DUDE. He knows him in a way those here can only dream of, he has been an insider and Knows Jax personally.

So, do I put more weight in what RM says? Dern straight skippy.

Pacesetter
10-09-2006, 09:01 PM
I wonder how able will feel about Uncle Reggie voicing his displeasure? More lynching posts in the works? Please able, share your thoughts on Reggie with us, eh mate? (JK)

McKeyFan
10-09-2006, 09:17 PM
Reggie Miller for GM.

And it will save the Simons' money: two for one.

ChicagoJ
10-09-2006, 09:19 PM
Makes you wonder what Reggie thought of SJax in the first place.

Pacesetter
10-09-2006, 09:36 PM
Reggie Miller for GM.

And it will save the Simons' money: two for one.

If you mean CEO, I say bad idea. Donnie is doing great, it's down to Rick and his staff to ensure things like this never happen. In this day and age Head Coaches need to have a pair, and Rick's two haven't even descended yet!

Evan_The_Dude
10-09-2006, 09:47 PM
I guess that answers the question "If Reggie says Artest isn't the problem, then who in his opinion is?".

Young
10-09-2006, 09:55 PM
I'm so glad someone spoke on this like Reggie did. To bad I haven't seen Larry say anything though.

I don't want to see someone get ran over by a car but yet I will say this you are a jackass if you go to any place where you feel you need to have a gun for your own protection. (obviously this excludes the law and such) When you carry a gun, even in self protection, that's how you get shot. The fact that you are out so late also is a punch in the gut as Reggie said. I really don't care about players going to strip clubs its just the fact that they are out and about so late. When you are getting paid millions and you are a professional athlete you have to make sacrafices. Your not 18, your 20 something and a working adult.

You see I am tired of this ****. I'm tired of the Pacers being looked down on because of a select few of jackasses. I do care what the opinion is of my favorite teams. I have a hard time rooting for the team that i've seen the past couple of years and this makes it even harder. There is always drama and i'm sick of it. This is childish ****.

I don't know what it worse, this incident, or the fact that the bull **** behavior doesn't seem to end, or the fact that Bird hasn't done **** about it. I ain't talking about having some talk with him either, trade him the **** out of Indiana and I don't give a **** who or what you get for him, anything is better than having him on this team as long as the player(s) you get back isn't the same dumb **** as SJ. It's time for Larry to come out and be a hard ***. Be a prick. Jackson will be ok so his health isn't an issue.

I'm tired of this ****. It almost makes me embarressed to be a Pacer fan right now. I've grown to not really care about the team and how they do. I'd rather just watch an old game of the older days than watch this current group.

Some may think of Jackson and co as victims. Me, I think they are jackasses for putting themselves in that situation.

8.9_seconds
10-09-2006, 10:13 PM
I'm so glad someone spoke on this like Reggie did. To bad I haven't seen Larry say anything though.

I don't want to see someone get ran over by a car but yet I will say this you are a jackass if you go to any place where you feel you need to have a gun for your own protection. (obviously this excludes the law and such) When you carry a gun, even in self protection, that's how you get shot. The fact that you are out so late also is a punch in the gut as Reggie said. I really don't care about players going to strip clubs its just the fact that they are out and about so late. When you are getting paid millions and you are a professional athlete you have to make sacrafices. Your not 18, your 20 something and a working adult.

You see I am tired of this ****. I'm tired of the Pacers being looked down on because of a select few of jackasses. I do care what the opinion is of my favorite teams. I have a hard time rooting for the team that i've seen the past couple of years and this makes it even harder. There is always drama and i'm sick of it. This is childish ****.

I don't know what it worse, this incident, or the fact that the bull **** behavior doesn't seem to end, or the fact that Bird hasn't done **** about it. I ain't talking about having some talk with him either, trade him the **** out of Indiana and I don't give a **** who or what you get for him, anything is better than having him on this team as long as the player(s) you get back isn't the same dumb **** as SJ. It's time for Larry to come out and be a hard ***. Be a prick. Jackson will be ok so his health isn't an issue.

I'm tired of this ****. It almost makes me embarressed to be a Pacer fan right now. I've grown to not really care about the team and how they do. I'd rather just watch an old game of the older days than watch this current group.
Some may think of Jackson and co as victims. Me, I think they are jackasses for putting themselves in that situation.


AMEN to all of that Rommie!

The Part I have in Bold is what I agree with most. I want to see Mark Jackson and Rik Smits and Dale Davis and Reggie and so many more. I just wish there was an air of respectability around this new group.

Yes I am a homer, but I think that the last pieces of that 'respectability' moved to Dallas....

Pacesetter
10-09-2006, 10:18 PM
8.9 there is respectability in this group, and plenty of it. We can't lose sight of the fact JO, Al, and Danny are A1 class acts. There's nothing but respect within that group. Beyond that you've got guys like Sarunas, and Foster, Armstrong, and James White.

This was a bad deal, but I would disagree that our team is void of respect. These guys have it, but they need to know how to flex it to their advantage! JMO.

8.9_seconds
10-09-2006, 10:25 PM
8.9 there is respectability in this group, and plenty of it. We can't lose sight of the fact JO, Al, and Danny are A1 class acts. There's nothing but respect within that group. Beyond that you've got guys like Sarunas, and Foster, Armstrong, and James White.

This was a bad deal, but I would disagree that our team is void of respect. These guys have it, but they need to know how to flex it to their advantage! JMO.

Oh, I totally agree. The Pacers definately have some stand up guys. It's just sad that in the eyes of the media and other fans that,excuse the cliche, that a few bad apples have ruined the whole bunch.A few years ago if somebody would have told me that the Pacers would be considered a team of thugs, I would have laughed right in their face. Not to say that this is a team of thugs, just a couple wannabes.

Evan_The_Dude
10-09-2006, 10:27 PM
The team is together. The fans aren't. The best thing the fans can do is just let this go and wait for the season to start. It's not like this is the first time this has happened to an NBA player, and many times it's been way worse.

indygeezer
10-09-2006, 10:33 PM
Perhaps Ev but I've read several out of town/ state newspapers and don't like being portrayed that way.

Ragnar
10-09-2006, 10:38 PM
Its going to be interesting reading the back tracking on here when the full story comes out.

What a shock the media's initial reports were not all that accurate.

I dont know the full story but having witnesed several things that were news events I do know the media is full of **** and never EVER gets it right within the first week.

Pacesetter
10-09-2006, 10:40 PM
Perhaps Ev but I've read several out of town/ state newspapers and don't like being portrayed that way.

Here's the deal: In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

We set the pace as a fanbase ... this is the Green Bay Packers of the NBA. When it comes to fans you don't find any better than the folks I've seen in this town, so as for being "portrayed" ... ask around, everybody knows Indiana has the handle on this game!

If anything people know the state of the NBA is in trouble when they can't even get things straight in Indiana. That's how I'd gamble people around the country and world think. JMO.

Destined4Greatness
10-09-2006, 10:43 PM
8.9 there is respectability in this group, and plenty of it. We can't lose sight of the fact JO, Al, and Danny are A1 class acts. There's nothing but respect within that group. Beyond that you've got guys like Sarunas, and Foster, Armstrong, and James White.

This was a bad deal, but I would disagree that our team is void of respect. These guys have it, but they need to know how to flex it to their advantage! JMO.

Yeah its not like JO has criminal and civil proceedings withstanding for him, oh wait.....

Being a class act has nothing to do with not doing bad things. It has to do with actually working to do good things. Really i don't see any pacer I would deem a class act, everything they do seems to be more of a publicity stunt rather than them doing the right thing.

Now this isn't a knock on the pacers because how many class acts are there in the league anymore, 10, maybe 20.

Just to Break it down of the seven pacers here last year. Runi, Tins, Jack, JO, Hulk, Feisty, and Granger. What have they done to be called a class act. Every good deed they do seems to be more "image" motivated.

Reggie was a class act, stopping on the interstate when somebody is trying to flag down a car, thats a class act. There were no press there. Every appearance the guys we have now make is loaded with camaras.

I am just saying, Being a Class act has nothing to do with not doing bad things, it has to do with actually doing good things.

Doug
10-09-2006, 11:05 PM
Just to Break it down of the seven pacers here last year. Runi, Tins, Jack, JO, Hulk, Feisty, and Granger. What have they done to be called a class act. Every good deed they do seems to be more "image" motivated.

I've seen JO sign autographs for roughly 200 kids while trying to watch a youth football game. He could have turned them down, he could have said I'm trying to watch the game. Instead he smiled and signed anything and everything. The kids were in awe. He didn't have to do that, but there's a lot of kids who won't forget it. Nothing to do with image.

Class act.

IMO, JO really cares about doing "the right thing". Not because it looks good, but because it is "the right thing."

He makes mistakes, no doubt, but I have no doubt in my mind that doing things for his "image" is not his main motivation.


And while I haven't had any personal encounters with Granger, I strongly suspect that he is similarly motived to do the right things because they ARE the right things.


And honestly, while I'm very down on Jack, I also strongly suspect that he, in his heart, wants to do the right things. But his emotions or judgement seem to get in the way. I doubt that the thought of "this will make me look good" ever crossed his mind when we was donating for his school.

vapacersfan
10-09-2006, 11:13 PM
I guess that answers the question "If Reggie says Artest isn't the problem, then who in his opinion is?".

To me I always thought he was talking about Tinsley, esp. with his comment right after retirement along the lines of "As Tinsley goes the Pacers go".

JMO

ChicagoJ
10-09-2006, 11:15 PM
But that comment also implied that when Tinsley is very, very good, then the Pacers are also very, very good.

There's got to be much more to connecting the dots than just two two comments. IMO.

Unclebuck
10-09-2006, 11:18 PM
Makes you wonder what Reggie thought of SJax in the first place.

Reggie had some very nice things to say about Jax last season. I apologize but I don't remember exactly what he said, but they were positive.

vapacersfan
10-09-2006, 11:21 PM
But that comment also implied that when Tinsley is very, very good, then the Pacers are also very, very good.

There's got to be much more to connecting the dots than just two two comments. IMO.

Oh I agree.
<o:p> </o:p>
When I first heard that I thought it was solely meant as a compliment to Tinsley, but as time has worn on I have always wondered if there was another meaning to what he said. Was he indeed confirming that Tinsley was soft, or had been faking injuries, or had problems with TPTB/coaches, if not all three?
<o:p> </o:p>
I have kind of wavered on my opinion of what he really meant probably hundreds of times since he first said it, and I don’t think any of us will truly exactly know what he meant, unless he comes out and tells us. Hey, maybe G2G can ask him that in his next interview ;)

Peck
10-09-2006, 11:40 PM
Reggie had some very nice things to say about Jax last season. I apologize but I don't remember exactly what he said, but they were positive.

In fairness though Reggie also said early on that Ron wasn't the only trouble maker on the team. Reggie didn't name names but I alsways felt that he was implying Mr. Jackson, but I could be wrong.

Bball
10-09-2006, 11:52 PM
In fairness though Reggie also said early on that Ron wasn't the only trouble maker on the team. Reggie didn't name names but I alsways felt that he was implying Mr. Jackson, but I could be wrong.

If you mean the 'Bad egg" comment Reggie made, the statement was something like "People think Ron is a bad egg but Ron's not the bad egg on the team"

I don't remember the exact words but in that case he specifically said Artest wasn't the bad egg. Which left the speculation wide open that someone else was. Some thought it was Tinsley... others thought it had to be Sjax. Some even thought it could be JO or even the coach. We now know it was AJ and Croshere. ;)

-Bball

Pacesetter
10-09-2006, 11:59 PM
Yeah its not like JO has criminal and civil proceedings withstanding for him, oh wait.....

Being a class act has nothing to do with not doing bad things. It has to do with actually working to do good things. Really i don't see any pacer I would deem a class act, everything they do seems to be more of a publicity stunt rather than them doing the right thing.

Now this isn't a knock on the pacers because how many class acts are there in the league anymore, 10, maybe 20.

Just to Break it down of the seven pacers here last year. Runi, Tins, Jack, JO, Hulk, Feisty, and Granger. What have they done to be called a class act. Every good deed they do seems to be more "image" motivated.

Reggie was a class act, stopping on the interstate when somebody is trying to flag down a car, thats a class act. There were no press there. Every appearance the guys we have now make is loaded with camaras.

I am just saying, Being a Class act has nothing to do with not doing bad things, it has to do with actually doing good things.

Well, I think you're right in how you define a class act. When I see the guys out at Riley's hospital I get a sense of pride that here's a group of high paid athletes wanting to give a sick child the chance to be with someone who has star power. To me there is no greater love than when a child beams on you. These guys would probably be the first to say they get more from these visits than the children do, but I'd bet those children feel important when these players come to see them.

I think Reggie was truly one of a kind. To me it seems a bit narrow-minded to reconcile every player off of Reggie's balance. Reggie was here during a very special time in Indianapolis' history, and no one off this squad can repeat that. However, these guys have the makings of something truly incredible of their own. They have charm, and charisma all their own. They have to do their own thing, just like Reggie did when he was here.

In the end, to get back on point, I've seen JO do things he doesn't have to do. I applaud him for it. Danny is just special, no way around it, he embodies class by the way he leads his life, and the way he carries himself (true of all the guys), but Al is the pinnacle of class and loyalty. Even during his tenure in ATL he never forgot about those of us who truly admired him, and wished him well. If that's NOT class, then what is it?

Reggie is awesome, but these guys are equals in many ways. JMO.

Will Galen
10-10-2006, 12:51 AM
Reggie should not have commented, for lots of reasons.


http://www.mikemooneyham.com/pages/viewfull.cfm?ObjectID=ACC24EA6-402D-489C-B5897C7BD9DED05D


Bischoff Fingered In Case
By Mike Mooneyham
June 9, 2001
The Associated Press reported last week that former strip club manager Thomas "Ziggy" Sicignano, a key witness in the government's racketeering case against Gold Club owner Steve Caplan of Atlanta, testified in an Atlanta court that female dancers provided sexual favors to, among others, former WCW boss Eric Bischoff.

Sicignano also has testified that the Gold Club dancers performed similar sex acts with athletes such as Dennis Rodman, Terrell Davis, Patrick Ewing, John Starks, Reggie Miller, Jerry Stackhouse and Andruw Jones. Kaplan also arranged a sex show in 1997 for New York Knicks rookies John Wallace, Walter McCarty and Dante Jones in Charleston, where the team was training, Sicignano testified.



http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,130781,00.html

Letter from Atlanta: The Seamy Gold Club Trial
Strippers, fraud, prostitution, the Mafia and NBA stars. TIME's Anne Berryman takes you to the case that is riveting Atlanta
By ANNE BERRYMAN

A pouty blonde in a silky dress struts up to a customer arriving at the Gold Club, the premier topless, bottomless strip bar in Atlanta. Introducing herself as, "Sarah, my real name," she chatters sweetly of the advantages of a private room, only $200. For another $200, she says, she can dance by the hour just for him. But he opts for more affordable pleasure — the $20 table dance. Standing between his spread knees, Sarah sways rhythmically and slips off her dress. Brushing against him, she says naughtily, "I'm breaking the rules here."

A few miles away in a staid federal courtroom, the temperature rises as steamy claims of other broken rules are revealed in the racketeering trial that is riveting this city with tales of prostitution, fraud, the Mafia, and the off-the-court lives of several high-profile NBA stars. At the center of the trial is Gold Club owner Steven Kaplan, who has been indicted along with 16 others, including one former and one active Atlanta police officer and two dancers named "Diva" and "Frederique." Each is charged with enriching a criminal enterprise run by Kaplan. He, in turn, according to prosecutors, paid the Mafia's Gambino family for protection. Charges include credit card fraud, in which club employees are accused of padding the drink tab by selling $375 bottles of champagne, graciously pouring glasses for customers and entertainers, then surreptitiously dumping the rest into the carpet and pushing customers to buy more. The women sometimes would allow drunken customers to run up tabs exceeding $10,000. Prostitution is also alleged, with the club paying women up to $1,000 each to have sex with select customers, mostly professional athletes.

The South's sin city

Here in the Bible Belt, the trial's revelations enthrall those who absorb daily reports from local newspapers and television stations. Starting at 6 a.m., a TV reporter stands in the dark outside the federal courthouse for a "live" report on the preceding day's testimony and the promise of ongoing coverage. Each new day brings juicier details. But most revealing has been the harsh light shed on Atlanta's thriving adult entertainment industry.

More than 5.6 million conventiongoers come to Atlanta every year, some number of them drawn in part by the city's rare combination of full nudity and alcohol, a mix of pleasure not offered in many other towns around the country. No pasties, no g-strings or t-backs. Visitors leave their fancy hotels downtown and go to places with names like the Pink Pony, Tattletales and the Baby Doll Lounge. The Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau Website even links to The Cheetah, billed as the best strip club in the nation. At the Gold Club, customers come by stretch limousine and stay for hour after hour.

No wonder Atlanta Magazine recently found that city residents are more likely to live next door to a topless dancer than a corporate employee of the Atlanta-based Coca-Cola Company. "Welcome to Sex City — Hope You Brought Cash" was the title of the magazine article in which an economist estimates that nudie bars generate greater economic impact than the Braves, Falcons and Hawks professional sports teams combined. "Conventioneers swarm to the Atlanta strip clubs because no matter where they live they probably don't have this honored combination of nude dancing and alcohol," says attorney Alan Begner, who represents nearly half of Atlanta's 41 strip bars. He and others estimate that 50 percent of the clubs' clientele are tourists. Delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention are some of "our biggest visitors," says Begner.

A trial more about greed than sex

The federal racketeering trial is expected to last 12 weeks, just like a visiting summer show. Kaplan, a pale, balding, pug-nosed 41-year-old with increasingly dark circles around his eyes, sits attentively in court as a cast of witnesses describe the shadier side of what he and his defense lawyers insist is a legitimate business. John Givens, an admitted mobster turned government witness, recently told of how he once sliced off a man's ear and slit another's nostrils to insert lit cigars.

It is a case of "greed" and "power," says assistant U.S. Attorney Art Leach. Defense attorney Steve Sadow agrees. But it's the greed and power of the government which "wants to take $50 million away" from his successful client, whom he describes as an "aggressive," "hard-working businessman." Prosecutors, Sadow says, "recruited every scoundrel, every scumbag, every criminal that they could possibly get and have offered them their freedom and money for their testimony."

Of course, there's plenty of sex, too

When testimony turned to oral sex, orgies and lesbian sex shows, a flushed bailiff joked that the thermostat might need adjusting. Former Gold Club manager Thomas Cicignano — nicknamed Ziggy — charged that Kaplan over several years "orchestrated" a series of sexual events involving professional athletes and other favored customers. With jurors and spectators leaning forward and journalists scribbling madly, Ziggy recounted a 1997 visit to the club by New York Knick Patrick Ewing and a couple of unnamed teammates. Kaplan took the players into a private room with "six to ten" dancers. "The girls were having a good time jumping on the players," Ziggy testified. "They were yelling out, 'There are no rules.'" Ziggy saw Ewing, with legs spread and an entertainer giving him oral sex, as Kaplan looked on. "Steve is a very big Knicks fan," Ziggy offered for the jury's sake. (Ewing's agent David Falk did not return TIME's phone call seeking a response to Ziggy's allegations. Nor would a Knicks spokeswoman comment.)

The trysts did not end there. Relating more sexual episodes, Ziggy dropped names of other alleged participants, including former Chicago Bull Dennis Rodman; Atlanta Brave Andruw Jones; New York Knicks rookies John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae' Jones; former Knick John Starks, former World Champion Wrestling executive Eric Bischoff; Detroit Piston Jerry Stackhouse and Denver Bronco Terrell Davis. No athlete is accused of committing a crime.

Some of the players are crying foul

Two athletes challenge the veracity of Ziggy's testimony. Ziggy told the jury that in 1997, the Indiana Pacers stayed at the Swissotel in Atlanta. He says he and Kaplan took three entertainers — Yolanda, Kat, and Nikko — to the hotel. At Kaplan's direction, Ziggy knocked on doors and asked players if they wanted the women to come in. Mark Jackson said, "No, thank you. I'm married," Ziggy recalls. But he claims Reggie Miller took Nikko into his room and Antonio Davis requested two women. Both Miller and Davis deny this. A team spokesman says the team didn't even stay at Swissotel in 1997, but a Swissotel spokeswoman found no hotel records to support either claim. "No one really seems to know," the hotel spokeswoman says.

Antonio Davis, now a forward on the Toronto Raptors, does not deny that he once went to the Gold Club. But it was too loud, too dark and too packed. He says he left. "All these allegations are false. I love my wife dearly and it's very hurtful for her," Davis told TIME. "I've understood kids are looking up to me." When the father of six-year-old twins heard the allegations, he called his mother, mother-in-law and his lawyer, then, on Wednesday, filed a $50 million lawsuit against Cicignano. Still, he worries that his name will be tarnished.

He's not the only one. All attorneys in the trial face the scrutiny of Judge Willis Hunt, who appears increasingly testy and who threatened a mistrial unless they stop bickering and move the case along. Future witnesses could speed up the pace. While prosecutors won't say when, at least four professional athletes, including Ewing, Terrell Davis and Atlanta Falcon Jamal Anderson, are expected to be called to reveal more about the Gold Club — and the underside of Atlanta. — With reporting by Mike Billips/Atlanta.



http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E2DB103AF93AA15754C0A9619582 60

Barkley in Court Over Fight

Published: July 29, 1997
CHARLES BARKLEY, sued for his role in a fight in a Cleveland bar, jumped past bouncers to repeatedly punch a man who was acting as a peacemaker during an argument about a woman, a lawyer said yesterday in opening statements.

Earlier in the day, Barkley had mouthed an expletive to the plaintiff, JEB TYLER, 24, of Spencerport, N.Y., before prospective jurors were led into the courtroom.

The scuffle happened last summer at the Basement, a Cleveland nightclub, when Barkley was in town with the United States Olympic basketball team. Barkley has told the police that he was the one who was attacked, and a defense lawyer said his Olympic teammate REGGIE MILLER would testify that Tyler threw the first punch.

Peck
10-10-2006, 01:53 AM
Reggie should not have commented, for lots of reasons.


http://www.mikemooneyham.com/pages/viewfull.cfm?ObjectID=ACC24EA6-402D-489C-B5897C7BD9DED05D


Bischoff Fingered In Case
By Mike Mooneyham
June 9, 2001
The Associated Press reported last week that former strip club manager Thomas "Ziggy" Sicignano, a key witness in the government's racketeering case against Gold Club owner Steve Caplan of Atlanta, testified in an Atlanta court that female dancers provided sexual favors to, among others, former WCW boss Eric Bischoff.

Sicignano also has testified that the Gold Club dancers performed similar sex acts with athletes such as Dennis Rodman, Terrell Davis, Patrick Ewing, John Starks, Reggie Miller, Jerry Stackhouse and Andruw Jones. Kaplan also arranged a sex show in 1997 for New York Knicks rookies John Wallace, Walter McCarty and Dante Jones in Charleston, where the team was training, Sicignano testified.



http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,130781,00.html

Letter from Atlanta: The Seamy Gold Club Trial
Strippers, fraud, prostitution, the Mafia and NBA stars. TIME's Anne Berryman takes you to the case that is riveting Atlanta
By ANNE BERRYMAN

A pouty blonde in a silky dress struts up to a customer arriving at the Gold Club, the premier topless, bottomless strip bar in Atlanta. Introducing herself as, "Sarah, my real name," she chatters sweetly of the advantages of a private room, only $200. For another $200, she says, she can dance by the hour just for him. But he opts for more affordable pleasure — the $20 table dance. Standing between his spread knees, Sarah sways rhythmically and slips off her dress. Brushing against him, she says naughtily, "I'm breaking the rules here."

A few miles away in a staid federal courtroom, the temperature rises as steamy claims of other broken rules are revealed in the racketeering trial that is riveting this city with tales of prostitution, fraud, the Mafia, and the off-the-court lives of several high-profile NBA stars. At the center of the trial is Gold Club owner Steven Kaplan, who has been indicted along with 16 others, including one former and one active Atlanta police officer and two dancers named "Diva" and "Frederique." Each is charged with enriching a criminal enterprise run by Kaplan. He, in turn, according to prosecutors, paid the Mafia's Gambino family for protection. Charges include credit card fraud, in which club employees are accused of padding the drink tab by selling $375 bottles of champagne, graciously pouring glasses for customers and entertainers, then surreptitiously dumping the rest into the carpet and pushing customers to buy more. The women sometimes would allow drunken customers to run up tabs exceeding $10,000. Prostitution is also alleged, with the club paying women up to $1,000 each to have sex with select customers, mostly professional athletes.

The South's sin city

Here in the Bible Belt, the trial's revelations enthrall those who absorb daily reports from local newspapers and television stations. Starting at 6 a.m., a TV reporter stands in the dark outside the federal courthouse for a "live" report on the preceding day's testimony and the promise of ongoing coverage. Each new day brings juicier details. But most revealing has been the harsh light shed on Atlanta's thriving adult entertainment industry.

More than 5.6 million conventiongoers come to Atlanta every year, some number of them drawn in part by the city's rare combination of full nudity and alcohol, a mix of pleasure not offered in many other towns around the country. No pasties, no g-strings or t-backs. Visitors leave their fancy hotels downtown and go to places with names like the Pink Pony, Tattletales and the Baby Doll Lounge. The Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau Website even links to The Cheetah, billed as the best strip club in the nation. At the Gold Club, customers come by stretch limousine and stay for hour after hour.

No wonder Atlanta Magazine recently found that city residents are more likely to live next door to a topless dancer than a corporate employee of the Atlanta-based Coca-Cola Company. "Welcome to Sex City — Hope You Brought Cash" was the title of the magazine article in which an economist estimates that nudie bars generate greater economic impact than the Braves, Falcons and Hawks professional sports teams combined. "Conventioneers swarm to the Atlanta strip clubs because no matter where they live they probably don't have this honored combination of nude dancing and alcohol," says attorney Alan Begner, who represents nearly half of Atlanta's 41 strip bars. He and others estimate that 50 percent of the clubs' clientele are tourists. Delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention are some of "our biggest visitors," says Begner.

A trial more about greed than sex

The federal racketeering trial is expected to last 12 weeks, just like a visiting summer show. Kaplan, a pale, balding, pug-nosed 41-year-old with increasingly dark circles around his eyes, sits attentively in court as a cast of witnesses describe the shadier side of what he and his defense lawyers insist is a legitimate business. John Givens, an admitted mobster turned government witness, recently told of how he once sliced off a man's ear and slit another's nostrils to insert lit cigars.

It is a case of "greed" and "power," says assistant U.S. Attorney Art Leach. Defense attorney Steve Sadow agrees. But it's the greed and power of the government which "wants to take $50 million away" from his successful client, whom he describes as an "aggressive," "hard-working businessman." Prosecutors, Sadow says, "recruited every scoundrel, every scumbag, every criminal that they could possibly get and have offered them their freedom and money for their testimony."

Of course, there's plenty of sex, too

When testimony turned to oral sex, orgies and lesbian sex shows, a flushed bailiff joked that the thermostat might need adjusting. Former Gold Club manager Thomas Cicignano — nicknamed Ziggy — charged that Kaplan over several years "orchestrated" a series of sexual events involving professional athletes and other favored customers. With jurors and spectators leaning forward and journalists scribbling madly, Ziggy recounted a 1997 visit to the club by New York Knick Patrick Ewing and a couple of unnamed teammates. Kaplan took the players into a private room with "six to ten" dancers. "The girls were having a good time jumping on the players," Ziggy testified. "They were yelling out, 'There are no rules.'" Ziggy saw Ewing, with legs spread and an entertainer giving him oral sex, as Kaplan looked on. "Steve is a very big Knicks fan," Ziggy offered for the jury's sake. (Ewing's agent David Falk did not return TIME's phone call seeking a response to Ziggy's allegations. Nor would a Knicks spokeswoman comment.)

The trysts did not end there. Relating more sexual episodes, Ziggy dropped names of other alleged participants, including former Chicago Bull Dennis Rodman; Atlanta Brave Andruw Jones; New York Knicks rookies John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae' Jones; former Knick John Starks, former World Champion Wrestling executive Eric Bischoff; Detroit Piston Jerry Stackhouse and Denver Bronco Terrell Davis. No athlete is accused of committing a crime.

Some of the players are crying foul

Two athletes challenge the veracity of Ziggy's testimony. Ziggy told the jury that in 1997, the Indiana Pacers stayed at the Swissotel in Atlanta. He says he and Kaplan took three entertainers — Yolanda, Kat, and Nikko — to the hotel. At Kaplan's direction, Ziggy knocked on doors and asked players if they wanted the women to come in. Mark Jackson said, "No, thank you. I'm married," Ziggy recalls. But he claims Reggie Miller took Nikko into his room and Antonio Davis requested two women. Both Miller and Davis deny this. A team spokesman says the team didn't even stay at Swissotel in 1997, but a Swissotel spokeswoman found no hotel records to support either claim. "No one really seems to know," the hotel spokeswoman says.

Antonio Davis, now a forward on the Toronto Raptors, does not deny that he once went to the Gold Club. But it was too loud, too dark and too packed. He says he left. "All these allegations are false. I love my wife dearly and it's very hurtful for her," Davis told TIME. "I've understood kids are looking up to me." When the father of six-year-old twins heard the allegations, he called his mother, mother-in-law and his lawyer, then, on Wednesday, filed a $50 million lawsuit against Cicignano. Still, he worries that his name will be tarnished.

He's not the only one. All attorneys in the trial face the scrutiny of Judge Willis Hunt, who appears increasingly testy and who threatened a mistrial unless they stop bickering and move the case along. Future witnesses could speed up the pace. While prosecutors won't say when, at least four professional athletes, including Ewing, Terrell Davis and Atlanta Falcon Jamal Anderson, are expected to be called to reveal more about the Gold Club — and the underside of Atlanta. — With reporting by Mike Billips/Atlanta.



http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E2DB103AF93AA15754C0A9619582 60

Barkley in Court Over Fight

Published: July 29, 1997
CHARLES BARKLEY, sued for his role in a fight in a Cleveland bar, jumped past bouncers to repeatedly punch a man who was acting as a peacemaker during an argument about a woman, a lawyer said yesterday in opening statements.

Earlier in the day, Barkley had mouthed an expletive to the plaintiff, JEB TYLER, 24, of Spencerport, N.Y., before prospective jurors were led into the courtroom.

The scuffle happened last summer at the Basement, a Cleveland nightclub, when Barkley was in town with the United States Olympic basketball team. Barkley has told the police that he was the one who was attacked, and a defense lawyer said his Olympic teammate REGGIE MILLER would testify that Tyler threw the first punch.


Um Will....

Your first article was taken from a site called "the wrestling gospel according to Mike Mooneyham".

Your second article clearly states that Reggie denied the accusation & Antonio Davis was so upset that he filed a law suit. Sadly I think Ziggy's got his Davis mixed up, I would have no problem believeing that Dale Davis requested two women.

Your third article lists Reggie as nothing more than a witness inside a club. It is not stated if this was late at night, on the night before a training camp or an exibition game or anything.

I'm sorry, I have to strongly disagree with you here. 18 years of not embarrasing the franchise with off court stupidity gives him as much right to talk about this as anyone.

Kstat
10-10-2006, 02:00 AM
:laugh: never thought I'd see the day where Indiana sided with Stephen Jackson over Reggie Miller.

Los Angeles
10-10-2006, 02:38 AM
:laugh: never thought I'd see the day where Indiana sided with Stephen Jackson over Reggie Miller.

STOP THAT S--- AND F--- OFF!

We take care of our own and this will sort out.

You've got a great eye for talent and x's and o's.

I respect you.

But you lack in your timing and tact. Please work on this for everyone's sake.

denyfizle
10-10-2006, 03:08 AM
I think this is good. Our players have been getting away with murder with slaps on the hand. It's nice that somebody is stepping up for our franchise and saying it how is should be. And who better do it? It is obvious that whatever disciplinary guidelines our team has that it's not strong enough to prevent players doing the knucklehead stuff they want to do. It has to start somewhere.

Seed
10-10-2006, 03:28 AM
It's really sad how Jackson homers dismiss anybody's opinion that doesn't agree with theirs. At least some people are willing to listen to other opinions. Reggie knows as much or more about what happened as the rest of us and it hasn't stopped most of us from stating our opinions.

Reggie has the same right as anyone else to state his opinion. Quite frankly, I respect his opinion a whole lot more than a lot of short sighted people around here right now that don't want to see the big picture that is the TRUTH.

It is a PR nightmare, and a bad situation all the way around. Period. Anybody that can't see that has their head in the sand.

Man, when are people going to figure out that there's more to life than ****ing basketball?

Thank you.

Will Galen
10-10-2006, 04:04 AM
Um Will....

Your first article was taken from a site called "the wrestling gospel according to Mike Mooneyham".

Your second article clearly states that Reggie denied the accusation & Antonio Davis was so upset that he filed a law suit. Sadly I think Ziggy's got his Davis mixed up, I would have no problem believeing that Dale Davis requested two women.

Your third article lists Reggie as nothing more than a witness inside a club. It is not stated if this was late at night, on the night before a training camp or an exibition game or anything.

I'm sorry, I have to strongly disagree with you here. 18 years of not embarrasing the franchise with off court stupidity gives him as much right to talk about this as anyone.


You missed the point, but I'm not in the mood to talk about it.

R-R
10-10-2006, 04:21 AM
I'm just wondering.

Does Reggie blame current Pacer players for supporting Jax (& other players involved)?
Does it mean he wouldn't support them if he was still on this team?

If so, I'm a bit confused. I think Reggie was always supportive for Ron Artest, no matter what Ron did. And I believed Reggie thought it was what he should do as a team member. I know he finally blamed Ron when he demanded trade, but until then, basically Reggie was always on Ron's side.

I don't know how Reggie sees the team situation right now. Maybe Reggie just dislikes Jax. Maybe Reggie liked Ron as a player more than Jax. I don't know and I don't care.

What I'm wondering now is that, does Reggie think there are such a big difference between Ron and Jax?
Does it mean Reggie feels that Jax already done much worse things than Ron had done to this team?

Personally it's ridiculous for me but it's just my opinion, and Reggie may know more things.

Peck
10-10-2006, 04:24 AM
You missed the point, but I'm not in the mood to talk about it.

Ok, I'm willing to listen to the point. But correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the point that "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones"?

If that is the case I'm just pointing out the articles in which you posted really provide no proof that Reggie lived in the same neighborhood let alone house as Jax.

Yes, I'm aware that Reggie was no saint & please understand that I made sure to put that his off court antics brought no shame on us. You'll notice I never said on court because there were many many things that made me cringe over the years.

But I'll just sit back & read what you have to say on this. What point did I miss?

able
10-10-2006, 04:32 AM
Peck I think the point is not the glasshouse one, but the biblical one: let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I personally feel Mr. Miller should have kept his opinion to himself, at least for the time being until all facts are known.

Peck
10-10-2006, 04:42 AM
Peck I think the point is not the glasshouse one, but the biblical one: let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I personally feel Mr. Miller should have kept his opinion to himself, at least for the time being until all facts are known.

Ok, that I can understand.

I'm not sure I agree with it, but if that is what Will was trying to point out then ok. I still don't think that the articles he posted were good examples of this, but maybe he saw something in them that I just didn't.

DisplacedKnick
10-10-2006, 07:07 AM
Peck I think the point is not the glasshouse one, but the biblical one: let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I personally feel Mr. Miller should have kept his opinion to himself, at least for the time being until all facts are known.

Well, he's getting paid to express his opinion.

However, I think I get what folks are saying. Reggie stood behind plenty of teammates who did stupid crap over the years. It's part of being on a team - the "us vs the world" mentality. They may be screaming at each other behind closed doors but you support each other in public.

I don't remember Reggie coming out in the press and condemning Artest & co for going into the stands in Detroit - he gave the usual "It was unfortunate and we have to play through it" quotes.

He knows how that works. Now he's being interviewed as if he doesn't.

Heck, even if Jackson is traded nobody's going to come out and say, "What he did is terrible and a stain on the Pacers." It'll be along the lines of, "Stephen had really lost the support of the fans, which is unfortunate, and we all felt that it was best, for him and for us, if he got a fresh start somewhere else."

For Pacer fans, the Reggie quotes should be irrelevant, because if he really believes what he said then he's a hypocrite. My guess is he did what the press does - say what will get the best ratings.

BlueNGold
10-10-2006, 07:50 AM
For Pacer fans, the Reggie quotes should be irrelevant, because if he really believes what he said then he's a hypocrite.

Criticizing someone is not always hypocrisy. This view leads us all to the lowest common denominator. ...and I don't think Reggie was being a hypocrite.

You can parse his actions over the last 20 years and find flaws. However, his actions cannot be compared to Jackson. It is the way that Reggie handles himself on and off the floor that distinguishes him from Jack. There is such a big difference it is shocking to me that people don't seem to see it.

For example, can you really imagine Reggie Miller running into the stands during a game and clocking a fan? ..or fighting some schmuck and firing a fire arm at a strip club on 38th street at 3am during training camp? ...or treating his coach with such complete disrespect to the point that the coach has to come crawling to him? That's just the highlights folks.

Goodness gracious, there is no comparison.

D-BONE
10-10-2006, 08:09 AM
For Pacer fans, the Reggie quotes should be irrelevant, because if he really believes what he said then he's a hypocrite. My guess is he did what the press does - say what will get the best ratings.

Exactly what I think about this. I think this has as much or more to do with Reggie offering sports commentary than speaking from the point of view of when he was a player and teammate.

I would also add that if Reggie wants to criticize the players for their united front in support of Jack to this point, he really should just come out and criticize the entire organiation top to bottom. He conveniently let Bird and Walsh off the hook and they've yet to say anything indicating a condemnation of Jackson. They're not taking any siginificantly different approach than the players. In fact, I'm sure that's the company line that's been handed down until anymore is known.



Will Galen
Reggie should not have commented, for lots of reasons.

I think you have a solid argument here. Reg has been publicly accused of being around/involved in some similar elements that strike a moral grey area amongst many people. Yes, the Jackson situation is more extreme b/c of the altercation and shots. Reggie might have exercised better judgment in avoiding scenes would exaggerate his presence in such activities.

However, this does not confer on him the righteousness to completely demonize Jackson in the press IMO. I would be less questioning of Reggie had he not been so cavalier and condescending in tone in the segment I heard. However, I think he's was channeling his inner Tony Kornheiser or Mike Wilbon.



indygeezer
Perhaps Ev but I've read several out of town/ state newspapers and don't like being portrayed that way.

It is unfortunate, but I look at it like the average person has enough common sense not to equate the actions of one pro athlete on a city's team with the people and fans of that city.

During the TO saga in Philly, I was sympathizing with their fans b/c it was obvious his words and actions were the farthest thing from what they would expect from their player/team.

Yes what's happening is not good PR for the team in general, but I think more than anything it's just bad PR for the state of the pro game today and Stephen Jackson the individual (and probably the other individuals involved).

Anyone out there judging the fans or franchise based on Jackson's issues is just engaging in stereotyping and generalities. I'd suggest thinking through the situation more thoroughly and not extrapolating the one to the whole.

DisplacedKnick
10-10-2006, 08:17 AM
Criticizing someone is not always hypocrisy. This view leads us all to the lowest common denominator. ...and I don't think Reggie was being a hypocrite.




Well, obviously I'm misinformed.

Please post the link to the article where Reggie soundly condemned the Pacers who went into the stands in Detroit in November, 2004.

heywoode
10-10-2006, 08:32 AM
Exactly what I think about this. I think this has as much or more to do with Reggie offering sports commentary than speaking from the point of view of when he was a player and teammate.

I think if Reggie was still on the team, he would be critical of Jackson in the locker room, but wouldn't say anything publicly. Therefore, I can see where his comments are a little harsh given that he should know the players aren't going to condemn their teammate in public. I still think he is right about Jackson slapping the team in the face. Ultimately, I don't just see it as Jackson doing it, but all four who were present...



I would also add that if Reggie wants to criticize the players for their united front in support of Jack to this point, he really should just come out and criticize the entire organiation top to bottom. He conveniently let Bird and Walsh off the hook and they've yet to say anything indicating a condemnation of Jackson. They're not taking any siginificantly different approach than the players. In fact, I'm sure that's the company line that's been handed down until anymore is known.


I agree. It is more management's fault than it is the other players on the team. If Reggie was going to be critical, he should've been critical where criticism was due.



I think you have a solid argument here. Reg has been publicly accused of being around/involved in some similar elements that strike a moral grey area amongst many people. Yes, the Jackson situation is more extreme b/c of the altercation and shots. Reggie might have exercised better judgment in avoiding scenes would exaggerate his presence in such activities.

The bold part solves the entire problem, and I agree with it. That is my main problem with Jackson. Always has been, always will be.



However, this does not confer on him the righteousness to completely demonize Jackson in the press IMO. I would be less questioning of Reggie had he not been so cavalier and condescending in tone in the segment I heard. However, I think he's was channeling his inner Tony Kornheiser or Mike Wilbon.

I think Reggie is new enough to the world of broadcasting that he came off a little harsher than he might have intended. His tone of voice was as you say, cavalier and condescending. I'm not saying I disagree with what he said, and he has a right to speak his mind....He should just know that we are not stupid enough to believe that he would be saying the same things if he was still a Pacer.



It is unfortunate, but I look at it like the average person has enough common sense not to equate the actions of one pro athlete on a city's team with the people and fans of that city.

During the TO saga in Philly, I was sympathizing with their fans b/c it was obvious his words and actions were the farthest thing from what they would expect from their player/team.

It's a little tough to equate Philly fans in this conversation because they have a reputation all their own. But, I agree with the general premise of your point, and when all that was going on, I felt bad for them in the fact that their team was experiencing all that TO bull****. I have the same sympathy for the Dallas fans who were smart enough to not want TO on the Cowboys. For those that wanted to give him another chance, I say they made their bed, now they get to lie in it. He was a known commodity and the circus that has followed him to Big D is no surprise to me. It will do nothing but continue wherever he is. Sadly, I feel the same way about Jackson. Every new incident we have, and there will be MORE, he becomes more of a known commodity and he will become more and more a player that a team has to "take a chance" on bringing in.




Yes what's happening is not good PR for the team in general, but I think more than anything it's just bad PR for the state of the pro game today and Stephen Jackson the individual (and probably the other individuals involved).

Anyone out there judging the fans or franchise based on Jackson's issues is just engaging in stereotyping and generalities. I'd suggest thinking through the situation more thoroughly and not extrapolating the one to the whole.

I agree with this 100%


Not trying to pick apart your post, you just touched on a lot of good issues!

RWB
10-10-2006, 08:42 AM
#1 Reggie would never burn bridges with the Simons or Donnie Walsh. Can't be too careful in case that TNT gig comes to a screaching halt so don't ever expect him to nail the important folks.

#2 Maybe Reggie is just fed up with the continual saga known as Jacksongate. We don't know, but would he have made the same statement if this was the first time?

#3 Deep down I agree with others that Reggie is working for a new company now and thinks the way to be heard is to feed the lions.

Slick Pinkham
10-10-2006, 08:49 AM
I think Ziggy's got his Davis mixed up, I would have no problem believeing that Dale Davis requested two women.


Peck, your worship of Dale seems to have no bounds!

;)

BlueNGold
10-10-2006, 08:59 AM
Well, obviously I'm misinformed.

Please post the link to the article where Reggie soundly condemned the Pacers who went into the stands in Detroit in November, 2004.

Reggie was a member of the team in 2004. He is now in a very different situation as an analyst...a clearly different role that requires him to state his opinion in public. Obviously, it would be foolish for him to make too strong of a statement against his current team mates when the brawl occurred. It would have only created more internal strife. Unlike Jack, Reggie has a decent idea of how to handle himself....and usually is smart enough to determine the context of his statements and actions.

Even now, its unnecessary to slam the players involved for the brawl. It is not news and does not have to be said that the players who took part in the brawl were foolish.

DisplacedKnick
10-10-2006, 09:01 AM
Reggie was a member of the team in 2004. He is now in a very different situation as an analyst...a clearly different role that requires him to state his opinion in public. Obviously, it would be foolish for him to make too strong of a statement against his current team mates when the brawl occurred. It would have only created more internal strife. Unlike Jack, Reggie has a decent idea of how to handle himself....and usually is smart enough to determine the context of his statements and actions.


Make up your mind then - so now you ARE saying Reggie's a hypocrite for saying Pacers players shouldn't stand behind Stephen Jackson?

BlueNGold
10-10-2006, 09:04 AM
Make up your mind then - so now you ARE saying Reggie's a hypocrite for saying Pacers players shouldn't stand behind Stephen Jackson?

No, please reread my post. I am saying that Reggie is in a different role now. He is no longer a team mate of Jack's. He is an analyst who *should* be stating his opinion. As a team mate in 2004, that would have been a mistake.

Phildog
10-10-2006, 09:10 AM
I think everyone needs to remember that Reggie is no longer on a team, but instead is paid to make comments about teams. Reggie was always a guy to speak his mind, and he's making a comment both as a former player (with inside connections), and as an outside basketball official. What would Charles Barkley say about about this incident?? He would bash Jackson too.....yet he did the same stuff.

Reggie's not on the team anymore, so he's always got a special place in our hearts, just not on this team

DisplacedKnick
10-10-2006, 09:24 AM
No, please reread my post. I am saying that Reggie is in a different role now. He is no longer a team mate of Jack's. He is an analyst who *should* be stating his opinion. As a team mate in 2004, that would have been a mistake.

But it's not a mistake for Jackson's current teamamtes to stand behind him.

From wikipedia: Hypocrisy is the act of pretending or claiming to have beliefs, feelings, morals or virtues that one does not truly possess or practise.

Are you saying that Reggie practiced what he's telling the Pacers to do - not stand behind their teammates?

ChicagoJ
10-10-2006, 10:41 AM
DK, I believe Reggie prviately admonished the players for their roles in the brawl, but kept that in-house.

I believe he's criticizing the current Pacers for a lack of behind-closed-doors accountability, not their public comments.

Just my opinion, of course.

owl
10-10-2006, 10:42 AM
Antonio Davis, now a forward on the Toronto Raptors, does not deny that he once went to the Gold Club. But it was too loud, too dark and too packed. He says he left. "All these allegations are false. I love my wife dearly and it's very hurtful for her," Davis told TIME. "I've understood kids are looking up to me." When the father of six-year-old twins heard the allegations, he called his mother, mother-in-law and his lawyer, then, on Wednesday, filed a $50 million lawsuit against Cicignano. Still, he worries that his name will be tarnished.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

Going to strip bars is considered perfectly fine and since no one has
brought this up as being wrong I will at least state that it is wrong.
Jackson is a father of (6?) children and should start setting the example
for them and also to honor his wife(s).

.
.
.
.
.
Kstat said..."never thought I'd see the day where Indiana sided with Stephen Jackson over Reggie Miller.

The end is near for sure... :-)
It certainly is closer than yesterday.
Are you prepared?

McKeyFan
10-10-2006, 11:04 AM
Time Magazine:

Ziggy knocked on doors and asked players if they wanted the women to come in. Mark Jackson said, "No, thank you. I'm married," Ziggy recalls.

Wow, his stock goes up.

A gracious and polite saint.

BillS
10-10-2006, 11:09 AM
DK, I believe Reggie prviately admonished the players for their roles in the brawl, but kept that in-house.

I believe he's criticizing the current Pacers for a lack of behind-closed-doors accountability, not their public comments.

Just my opinion, of course.

I mostly agree with this.

I also think there is a big difference between "not criticizing" and "supporting". As I recall, Reggie didn't say anything one way or the other after the brawl, he just didn't criticize his teammates in public. In this instance teammates and coach are publicly backing the players.


Now, the backing may be due to the fact that nothing was legally wrong. I think Reggie is saying that legality has nothing to do with what is good for the team, and backing the players in public to a certain extent condones it from a team perspective.

DisplacedKnick
10-10-2006, 11:14 AM
DK, I believe Reggie prviately admonished the players for their roles in the brawl, but kept that in-house.

I believe he's criticizing the current Pacers for a lack of behind-closed-doors accountability, not their public comments.

Just my opinion, of course.

Then he needs to go back to school and take, "Addressing the Public 101."

The only thing the public knows is what's been publicly stated. If Reggie wants to make public comments about what was said in private then he better mention in his comments that he has inside knowledge of what went on in the Pacers locker room and behind closed doors, and that his comments are related to that - not the comments made by the team to the media.

Otherwise the only reasonable interpretation of his comments is that he's commenting on what was publically said.

Unclebuck
10-10-2006, 11:14 AM
owl, No I don't consider going to strip club perfectly fine, in fact I wish the city of Indianapolis did not have any strip clubs. But I've been to a number of them, it's been probably 10 years or so since I have, and each time I did I felt very dirty and I can say it was never my idea to go to those places. No I wasn't hog-tied and forced to go, but I never felt right about it.

So I'll say it right now, I think it is wrong for anyone to go to those places, whether they are members of the Pacers team or not.

Having said that, there isn't anything I can do to stop them, and just because they are there doesn't mean they should be harassed.

Fool
10-10-2006, 11:17 AM
Otherwise the only reasonable interpretation of his comments is that he's commenting on what was publically said.



I agree that the fair assumption is that Reggie is speaking of what's publically known (or else its his responsibility to clearify that) but I don't agree that Reggie standing behind his teamates in the past (even if there was never a case where Reggie didn't back his teamates) forces him into the opinion that all players should always stand behind their players. I don't see Reggie as being hypocritical.

BTW, I also think that responding to Reggie with "you would have done so when you were a player" is a fair repsonse. But should Reggie answer that with "maybe so, but I would be wrong in this case, if I did" isn't Reggie being hypocritical either.

BlueNGold
10-10-2006, 11:50 AM
DK, I believe Reggie prviately admonished the players for their roles in the brawl, but kept that in-house.

I believe he's criticizing the current Pacers for a lack of behind-closed-doors accountability, not their public comments.

Just my opinion, of course.

I agree with this point.

...and I would also like to add that the brawl happened 2 years ago in an entirely different context. Now, the team has supposedly put its foot down on this type of activity with the motto "It's up to us". Certainly Jack knew how crucial this campaign is to the franchise.

The entire goal of this marketing campaign is to win back fans and take responsibility. This is 2006. We did not make these types of promises to the fans in 2004. The stakes and the responsibilities of the players are at an all time high and the fate of the franchise is in the balance. I think Reggie recognizes this and I wish Jack did. Things are just different than they were in 2004 and this requires a different response from the players...so no, Reggie is not being a hypocrite.

Since86
10-10-2006, 03:29 PM
I've got a question for the people commenting in this thread.

How many of you actually heard the interview?

The only ones I saw who commented on it yesterday, while it was going on, was MR and Frank.

I listened, to the whole thing, and using the word "ripped" is a far stretch. Most of his statements made about Jax "shooting up the place like the Wild Wild West," were made in jest and with half a laugh. I'm sure most of you know exactly the tone of voice from Reggie I'm talking about.

MagicRat
10-10-2006, 03:38 PM
I've got a question for the people commenting in this thread.

How many of you actually heard the interview?

The only ones I saw who commented on it yesterday, while it was going on, was MR and Frank.

I listened, to the whole thing, and using the word "ripped" is a far stretch. Most of his statements made about Jax "shooting up the place like the Wild Wild West," were made in jest and with half a laugh. I'm sure most of you know exactly the tone of voice from Reggie I'm talking about.

Quite a bit of it was in his "Reggie Miller on the Dan Patrick Show" voice. He seems to go a little goofy whenever he's on there.

Dan even said "Come on....." a couple of times trying to prod Reggie into a more serious tone and discussion.

Since86
10-10-2006, 03:43 PM
Yep. It was hardly Reggie sending a stern reaction to what happened. Not close to "ripping" anyone.

I find it funny there's 3pgs worth of material on here, and not one person said they listened, nor seemed like they listened. BTW, they play cuts during the day, especially the "Wild Wild West" part, or when he called Jax "Doc Holiday."

AesopRockOn
10-10-2006, 05:35 PM
I think this is good. Our players have been getting away with murder with slaps on the hand. It's nice that somebody is stepping up for our franchise and saying it how is should be. And who better do it? It is obvious that whatever disciplinary guidelines our team has that it's not strong enough to prevent players doing the knucklehead stuff they want to do. It has to start somewhere.

Wait, 72 games and the playoffs was a slap on the hand? What murders were committed that were dealt with really small reprimands? Reggie just overreacted/spoke without thinking too much. No way Jax deserves so much **** for this incident meaning that the hatred and anger results from past experiences.

Young
10-10-2006, 05:50 PM
No way Jax deserves so much **** for this incident meaning that the hatred and anger results from past experiences.

You are right, the anger results from past experiences, past behavior. I can't believe more of you aren't sick of this crap.

Leisure Suit Larry
10-10-2006, 06:38 PM
Um Will....

Your first article was taken from a site called "the wrestling gospel according to Mike Mooneyham".


But he took it from an article from the "Associated Press"



Your second article clearly states that Reggie denied the accusation & Antonio Davis was so upset that he filed a law suit. Sadly I think Ziggy's got his Davis mixed up, I would have no problem believeing that Dale Davis requested two women.


Of course they denied it. You think they are going to admit that they were involved in prostitution? If you are going to say that by Reggie denying something then he is telling the truth you have to think the same for Jack or anyone else.



Your third article lists Reggie as nothing more than a witness inside a club. It is not stated if this was late at night, on the night before a training camp or an exibition game or anything.


It happened when they were doing something for the Olympic team. It says they were. It wasn't just some night in the offseason where they were like "****** it, we're going to Cleveland." Who are you kidding it might not have been at night? Come on. You along with a lot of other people need to quit holding professional basketball players in such high regard. Seriously, they play basketball for a living.

D-BONE
10-10-2006, 07:02 PM
Not trying to pick apart your post, you just touched on a lot of good issues!




HW, no problem whatsoever. Pick apart whenever you feel for whatever reasons. That's what we're on here for right? Glad you found something worthwhile in the post.

D-BONE
10-10-2006, 07:07 PM
Yep. It was hardly Reggie sending a stern reaction to what happened. Not close to "ripping" anyone.

I find it funny there's 3pgs worth of material on here, and not one person said they listened, nor seemed like they listened. BTW, they play cuts during the day, especially the "Wild Wild West" part, or when he called Jax "Doc Holiday."

Well, you interpreted it one way and I took it another. I've now heard the segment you refer to at least four times and, while I will go so far as to say there was a hint of humor in the hyperbole and invoking the old west allusions, I still find his overall tone and message to be pretty condedescnding.

Naptown_Seth
10-10-2006, 10:35 PM
I think the problem with Reggie's comments might not be Reggie himself, at least if he was in that kidding mood that he has with Dan (which is great fun to listen to). The problem is how many people are latching onto them as VALIDATION of their own view.

None of those people ripped into Reggie for what he "ripped" into the Pacers for doing. None said "why are you standing behind Ron and Jack". And based on Reggie's comments after he left about their being turmoil or issues still in the lockerroom that he thought would cause problems, it sounds like he knew enough even during that season to at least stick with a "that's not the kind of team we want to be" or even a "no comment" hardline.

He didn't really do that. So if he's legit then it is hypocritical, unless he also qualified it with "you know I did it 2 years ago, but looking back I think its the wrong thing for JO (et al) to be doing". And if it was joking, then people shouldn't be using it as validation of their own criticisms (as in pasting it as major headlines commenting on the issue).


Forget after hours, let's talk about influencing the KIDS, which is a major point of those people outraged, especially about the pot and strip club. What in the F message did Reggie doing the choke sign at Spike Lee send to kids? Seriously, what would you do if a kid on the other team did that to you, your coach or your own son even after making a big basket against your son's team?

Yeah, I bet you'd say "what a great sport, just like Reggie did".

Then the kid would drop the Jax shimmy on you. Then he'd take bows at center court. Sooner or later a kid head butts him, scratches his face or tackles him into the crowd. These are the messages sent by YOUR INDIANA PACERS, and long before Jack rolled into town. They weren't displayed to strippers and bouncers in the Rio parking lot at 3 AM, they were displayed for prime time TV and 18K live fans that included tons of kids watching.

When Dale went and choked whomever it was that grabbed Tony, kids were watching. When Detlef and Ewing traded punches kids were watching too.

I missed the part where Reggie spoke out about how he and the team had totally embarrassed the city. I also missed where all the "back in my day" posters were calling in to radio shows or writing to the Star to lament how dark a day we'd come to where our wholesome Pacers resorted to blatent poor sportsmanship, arguing with the refs (Jack has a long way to go to match Reggie IMO), kicking balls into the stands, fighting, and so on.


This is just so strongly a case of convenient amnesia that it really does bug me. I'm not even trying to justify Jack's behavior here, but good lord when even Reggie jumps on the "it never use to be like that" tip it reeks of the same stench that the brawl critics used as they conveniently forgot the ugly sports brawls from even a few years before (like Dodgers-Cubs fans all over a CAP), and the drunk brawl on the field on 5 cent beer night in the 70's (a Sox or Brewers game IIRC, fans and players duked it out eventually).

For some reason it was so much easier to say "the darkest day in American sports" when Ty Cobb beating up a cripple for heckling him I guess fell closer to "fun times at the old ballpark" and shouts of n****r thrown on a daily basis at Jackie Rob were "just part of the game".

And now locals are doing the same with this moment, which by "disgraceful player actions" falls well short of the really good ones, say murdering a soon-to-be mother of your baby and then hiding in a trunk. Like everything else Indy, we love to pump up how great our versions of stuff our, like our "traffic problems", but in the end they are really just small town versions of stuff that is routine elsewhere.


I mean "bad decision" that hurt a team's image...how's Bobby Phills doing right about now? Racing on city streets during the day right outside the old arena (which was not safely off in the boondocks either, its a heavily traveled section of road).


So to Reggie, or those using Reggie's word as gospel, come on already, I know better and I would hope you do too.

Naptown_Seth
10-10-2006, 10:46 PM
DK, I believe Reggie prviately admonished the players for their roles in the brawl, but kept that in-house.

I believe he's criticizing the current Pacers for a lack of behind-closed-doors accountability, not their public comments.

Just my opinion, of course.
If only there were some way for him to still speak to them in-house, some invention that we could call a talky-box or something.

If Reggie is going to give us outrage that they have tarnished the franchise, implying (for good reason IMO) that he still views himself as part of that franchise in the sense of legacy at least, then couldn't he very easily still handle it the same as he would have as a player?

And commenting on his feelings about Jack, Tins, Daniels, Snap is one thing, but was there really a need to go after the teammates simply for handling it perhaps EXACTLY like he would have? Does Reggie know that behind closed doors JO hasn't already spoken out strongly about the situation and that the unified front isn't simply the public voice?

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2006, 11:12 AM
This is just so strongly a case of convenient amnesia that it really does bug me.

I understand why people are calling talk shows and saying they'll never attend a Pacers game, even though we all know that if the team is winning, those same people will come down with a case of convenient amnesia.
I'm just saying, that's all. Just a coincidence.

able
10-11-2006, 11:29 AM
8 out of 10 Pacers columns of good ol Bob are for at least 90% born on this forum.

Since86
10-11-2006, 11:34 AM
Well, you interpreted it one way and I took it another. I've now heard the segment you refer to at least four times and, while I will go so far as to say there was a hint of humor in the hyperbole and invoking the old west allusions, I still find his overall tone and message to be pretty condedescnding.

Like MR said, Dan had to say "come on" to Reggie on MORE than one occasion. You're just hearing what you want to hear.

Dan tried to keep Reggie serious, because it was a serious matter of discussion. Telling him to "come on" was telling him to quit joking around with it.

Talk about selective hearing.

McKeyFan
10-11-2006, 01:47 PM
8 out of 10 Pacers columns of good ol Bob are for at least 90% born on this forum.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Bravo, Pacers Digest.