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able
10-07-2006, 05:31 PM
Yes, at least I am, utterly disgusted, nauseatingly disgusted.
It is my main reason for being silent till now, I felt it hard to keep composure and stay calm.

Let's start with the media reporting this as:

"Pacers involved in shooting incident at strip club at 3 AM!"

and we can imagine the next:

"Dope found in Pacer's car after shooting incident"

but most of us missed the:

Pacers player(s) victim of "hit and run" accident.


And most of the people here and in Pacers Land, jumped on the first headline.
Jax was involved so there was no longer any thought into what "really" happened, no thought about his health and the health of the other players involved, even the front office reacted in the same "primitive" way that the fans did, they took down billboards (stopped new ones) took down a promo on their web-site and released a "mea culpa" statement.

Now, 36 hours later, facts dribble in;

They were (likely) at an "afer party" that happened to be held at the premises.
Celebrating the birthday of the best friend of Marquis Daniels borther.

Camera's show Jax being hit and then ran-down with a car before he shot.

Short: He was a VICTIM.

The "weed found" (it went from "maybe just enough for 1 joint" to "just enough for 1 or maybe 2 joints") in Tinsley's car;

Despite the FACT that there were 3 or 4 people in the car with him, it was not found in the dash, his seat or anywhere on him, he has never tested positive for drug tests in the NBA (that EVERY player undergoes several times a year and they DO test for weed as well) nobody even thinks that if it was HIS, and he kept it in the car, it would be in the glove compartment, the console, his pocket or (if it fell out of his pocket) his seat, but NOT on a seat OCCUPIED by someone when traveling or they would have taken it off the seat when getting in the car.

With all the hatred for Jax (and I certainly am not a fan of him) that goes on, most posters overlook the truth in front of them, that there are more people who dislike Jax, that it is likely that some unknown (till now) real "thug" decided to "take it to him" when he spotted him at the club, or got upset that he got thrown out and Jax & Co didn't.
That the reason they were leaving was BECAUSE of this "thug" starting to pick on them and they tried to de-escalate the incident by "just leaving" instead.
That the "thug" did now feel even more powerfull and decided to make sure that Jax would no longer play for "his" team.

Overlooked is the fact that the next training was scheduled for 3.30 PM the next day, not 9 AM.
That maybe there was a reason for that late start?

That going to bed at 5 AM aint that bad if you have to report at 3.30 PM to work.
(translate that to starting at 9 AM and going to bed at 10.30 PM, because that is the exact same time frame)

Yet all are lynching the players;
Jax, a wannabe thug who should have been send off anyway now has to go immediately
Tins a junkie, drop him,
Daniels, victim of the "jax" influence, but has to go to now,
Snap, kick him out of camp.

And what is worst, TPTB act the SAME!

as the new Vice President of Basketball said:

"it is unfortunate that they were there at that hour (it shows bad judgement)"

Does it? going to bed at 10.30 PM if you have to go to work is "bad judgement"?
Going to an "After Party" of a concert (invites only) which (unfortunately) happened to be at a "gentleman's club" is "bad judgement"?

So going with the guys from the office to "hooters" at 6 PM after work is "good judgement"?



People are reacting with their feet instead of their brain, saddening, to say the least.

I dislike Jax, but knowing the facts which are:

Invited to an after party they went to that party, taking some "friends and other invite's with them in their cars instead of sharing one car together. They are, like many Americans, in agreement with the law, carrying guns under permit from the authorities. Carrying a gun is not an unreasonable form of protection for "famous people" who also happen to be rich and therefore very high on the "target" list for accidents.
Whilst exiting the car, one person, likely to be the one riding said "passenger seat" loses a small quantity of weed, later to be found by the police when the owner of the vehicle permitted the police to search his vehicle,

Once on the premises, they were confronted by "thugs" who were either also invited, or (far more likely) in the process of leaving the premiss, because it became "out of bounds to the public as the after party planned was startng".
The content of the confrontation is up and until now unknown, but we can imagine several reasons or content types here, the most likely one being the fact that the least liked player on the Pacers was not kicked out, is a good enough reason for someone to start a fight.

The players, weary of these matters, decided that the best and most likely defusing action was to leave.
Upon doing so the thug thought that while he was "at it" he might as well play judge jury and executioner, by "removing" Jax from the Pacer's roster and smacked him in he mouth, requiring several stitches.
Jax went to his car, as did other Pacers players, still refusing to get into the altercation (VERY commendable), only to see the thug or his mates now run at him with a car with most certainly deadly intentions, instinctively he defends himself by pulling his gun, carried for that reason, and whilst hit by the car shoots the automatic weapon,
he has the presence of mind to hold on to the gun while bouncing on the hood and shoots more, enough to once he's off the car, chase the culprits away and make them think a few times about a retry.

The police arrives on the scene nearly at the same time the "press" does and the story becomes "braking news".
Only to be treated as "such" and that seems to mean; "turn of the brain, start the primate reaction system and start shouting your opinions"

And for me it was time to start puking.

docpaul
10-07-2006, 05:36 PM
Thanks.

AesopRockOn
10-07-2006, 06:02 PM
It has gotten way too out of hand; i sort of disagree on the judgement part but all those involved especially SJax have gotten too much **** for a very negligible incident, other than the fact that Jackson could have sustained very serious injury. Face it, people hate Jax much more than they hate Ron.
**** these distractions; the season will start soon and i have high hopes for my team: GO PACERS!

rexnom
10-07-2006, 06:08 PM
Able...awesome.

rabid
10-07-2006, 06:19 PM
Finally a voice of reason.

Los Angeles
10-07-2006, 06:55 PM
I think showing a little emotion is natural, you did the right thing to wait a day and let things calm down.

All I ever wanted was an incident-free season, regardless of record. And we made it three whopping days. I can be frustrated and upset about that and still acknowledge the facts that you present.

Anyway, you obviously have access to information that the rest of us don't have, so thank you for sharing some of it.

Eindar
10-07-2006, 06:55 PM
I'm not ready to crucify the players, but they still should never have been in that position. Absolutely no way you ever catch me in Club Rio, and I'm not even a well-known, wealthy, local celebrity. I'd have told Marquis, "no thanks, I'm not going unless it's a private party or they move it to a place that I agree on."

It was a dumb decision to go, Jax almost paid for it with his career/life, hopefully he's learned another lesson.

Los Angeles
10-07-2006, 06:57 PM
Eindar, Able is saying that it WAS a private party.

ajbry
10-07-2006, 07:01 PM
Thank you able. The best post on this particular matter. You nailed everything.

There is no debating the facts, and that is exactly what you provided. Amazing post.

Isaac
10-07-2006, 07:06 PM
Able, you are god, thank you so much.

Pacesetter
10-07-2006, 07:08 PM
Dear Steve. I apologize for jumping to conclusions, and able has cleared up the mess. Please forgive me/us for jumping on you, when you were obviously the victim here.

Hey Pacers: Can we get the "It's up to us" vids back? It's ok now ...

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 07:34 PM
Eindar, Able is saying that it WAS a private party.

Well, I don't think Deano and Fingers were invited to the private party.

I think Eindar means only members of the private party would be in attendance, not a private party in the midst of the riffraff.

able
10-07-2006, 07:36 PM
problem started when they were removing the riff-raff to continue the private party

Robertmto
10-07-2006, 07:41 PM
problem started when they were removing the riff-raff to continue the private party

according to channel 59 news here in Indy last night, it all started when a round of drinks sent to SJax and the gang. The ppl who sent the drinks (fingers and deano?) did not fell like the gesture was appreciated.

bulldog
10-07-2006, 07:45 PM
This is all well and good, but also please consider that this situation can't be judged in a vacuum.

Even if his actions were entirely legal, and not particularly unjustified, I'm still troubled by Jackson's pattern of behavior. After a while, he just has to do a better job of representing himself, the city, and the organization.

Often when he yells at the refs, they really did blow a call. And when he went into the stands after Artest, you could say he was just protecting a teammate. But twice now he's found himself in major PR disasters, which is about two more than 99% of the players in the NBA, as well as a constant stream of less serious offenses (yelling at refs, Carlisle, JO, etc.).

Jack's a grown man, he can do what he likes as long as its not illegal or against league/team policy. But Donnie and Larry are grown men too, and they can do what they like, regardless of the morality of the situation. At this point, they have to take a long hard look at whether he's an asset to this team. He has participated in a lot of incidents, and even if each of them was entirely justified, the pattern is troubling and TPTB need to consider what is best for the organization.

P.S. I think a lot of people share this sentiment, seeing as how so much attention is focused on Jackson and not the other members of the party.

ABADays
10-07-2006, 07:45 PM
I must have a lot of pent-up emotions being over here and just been looking for a "good fight". My friend able is helping along here ;) .

So able, for YOUR INDIANA PACERS, do you approve of:

1. Jackson's part in the brawl?

2. Jackson's cursing of the coach?

3. Jackson's constant jaw-jacking at the refs?

4. Jackson's need to take a firearm into an alcohol establishment?

5. Jackson firing said firearm several times in a populated area as the
vehicle in question was, through all accounts, departing the scene?

These traits have all been displayed over a period of time. They are his mode of operation. They are habitual. There is no expectation on my part that he will change.

I am merely stating I no longer want him on MY INDIANA PACERS.

Slick Pinkham
10-07-2006, 08:12 PM
well said ABA days.

If any one of you on this forum put yourself in that situation one time, then I would say "what were you thinking, out, armed, jaw-jacking with people, on a work night, in one of the worst part of towns, at a strip club"

but then if you did it again, or if you were part of an organization with a HISTORY of that sort of thing, and had a job that touts your "character" and work with your state's name emblazoned on your chest, then I would call you stupid lowlife scum.

Jailblaxers of the 90s = Pacers of today = Bengals of today

Trader Joe
10-07-2006, 08:15 PM
I am completely with you Able. Someone absolutely needed to post something like this.

Los Angeles
10-07-2006, 08:25 PM
problem started when they were removing the riff-raff to continue the private party


according to channel 59 news here in Indy last night, it all started when a round of drinks sent to SJax and the gang. The ppl who sent the drinks (fingers and deano?) did not fell like the gesture was appreciated.

So let me get this straight - Riff Raffs buy players a round of drinks. Players either are not drinking, have already had enough or otherwise don't show the sort of appreciation that Riff Raffs were expecting.

THEN - in a bout of rotten luck timing, the Riff Raff are asked to leave for completely different reasons (the bar was closing for a private party).

All hell breaks loose.

Uhg. High School all over again.

Pacersfan46
10-07-2006, 08:29 PM
well said ABA days.

If any one of you on this forum put yourself in that situation one time, then I would say "what were you thinking, out, armed, jaw-jacking with people, on a work night, in one of the worst part of towns, at a strip club"

but then if you did it again, or if you were part of an organization with a HISTORY of that sort of thing, and had a job that touts your "character" and work with your state's name emblazoned on your chest, then I would call you stupid lowlife scum.

Jailblaxers of the 90s = Pacers of today = Bengals of today

Epitome of overreaction.

Team has a history of this sort of thing? Interesting. I must have missed our teams problem with being at strip clubs, and getting into issues involving the police. Are you kidding me?

Unless my memory is failing me horribly, this is the first off the court incident that's happened to our team in recent history.

ABADays
10-07-2006, 08:29 PM
Uhg. High School all over again.

This has to be the funniest comment I've read about this whole situation. Nice post LA!

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 08:36 PM
If they were removing the riff raff to make the private party private, why is Jax outside?

RamBo_Lamar
10-07-2006, 08:40 PM
Nice post Able,

But I think alot of us are, and have been sick for quite some time of negetive
stuff happening, and the Pacers being portrayed in a bad way to the rest of
the world.

Even had Jack or the other 3 not been involved, and it had been 4
other players, there would still be backlash, and mob mentality, and alot of
folks jumping the gun so to speak.

Thursday evening I get on the board here, like many others, and see a poll
posting asking "should they get a clean slate?". I don't remember what
the final score was, but it seemed about split at the time. I, for one, was
one who said yes, absolutely. Not even 24 hours later, there is an
incident. That clean slate got tarnished pretty quickly.

At this point, I think there are alot of us are sick and disgusted at negative
incidents occuring, and yes, there probably wouldn't be as much "mob
mentality" going on right now had the crap from the last couple years not
taken place.

It may be wrong, it may be shallow minded, but alot of us are very tired of
having the team we love portrayed in a bad light - irregardless of the reason
or reported facts. We want no more of it, plain and simple, period.

Big Smooth
10-07-2006, 09:00 PM
Yes, at least I am, utterly disgusted, nauseatingly disgusted.
It is my main reason for being silent till now, I felt it hard to keep composure and stay calm.

Let's start with the media reporting this as:

"Pacers involved in shooting incident at strip club at 3 AM!"

and we can imagine the next:

"Dope found in Pacer's car after shooting incident"

but most of us missed the:

Pacers player(s) victim of "hit and run" accident.


And most of the people here and in Pacers Land, jumped on the first headline.
Jax was involved so there was no longer any thought into what "really" happened, no thought about his health and the health of the other players involved, even the front office reacted in the same "primitive" way that the fans did, they took down billboards (stopped new ones) took down a promo on their web-site and released a "mea culpa" statement.

Now, 36 hours later, facts dribble in;

They were (likely) at an "afer party" that happened to be held at the premises.
Celebrating the birthday of the best friend of Marquis Daniels borther.

Camera's show Jax being hit and then ran-down with a car before he shot.

Short: He was a VICTIM.

The "weed found" (it went from "maybe just enough for 1 joint" to "just enough for 1 or maybe 2 joints") in Tinsley's car;

Despite the FACT that there were 3 or 4 people in the car with him, it was not found in the dash, his seat or anywhere on him, he has never tested positive for drug tests in the NBA (that EVERY player undergoes several times a year and they DO test for weed as well) nobody even thinks that if it was HIS, and he kept it in the car, it would be in the glove compartment, the console, his pocket or (if it fell out of his pocket) his seat, but NOT on a seat OCCUPIED by someone when traveling or they would have taken it off the seat when getting in the car.

With all the hatred for Jax (and I certainly am not a fan of him) that goes on, most posters overlook the truth in front of them, that there are more people who dislike Jax, that it is likely that some unknown (till now) real "thug" decided to "take it to him" when he spotted him at the club, or got upset that he got thrown out and Jax & Co didn't.
That the reason they were leaving was BECAUSE of this "thug" starting to pick on them and they tried to de-escalate the incident by "just leaving" instead.
That the "thug" did now feel even more powerfull and decided to make sure that Jax would no longer play for "his" team.

Overlooked is the fact that the next training was scheduled for 3.30 PM the next day, not 9 AM.
That maybe there was a reason for that late start?

That going to bed at 5 AM aint that bad if you have to report at 3.30 PM to work.
(translate that to starting at 9 AM and going to bed at 10.30 PM, because that is the exact same time frame)

Yet all are lynching the players;
Jax, a wannabe thug who should have been send off anyway now has to go immediately
Tins a junkie, drop him,
Daniels, victim of the "jax" influence, but has to go to now,
Snap, kick him out of camp.

And what is worst, TPTB act the SAME!

as the new Vice President of Basketball said:

"it is unfortunate that they were there at that hour (it shows bad judgement)"

Does it? going to bed at 10.30 PM if you have to go to work is "bad judgement"?
Going to an "After Party" of a concert (invites only) which (unfortunately) happened to be at a "gentleman's club" is "bad judgement"?

So going with the guys from the office to "hooters" at 6 PM after work is "good judgement"?



People are reacting with their feet instead of their brain, saddening, to say the least.

I dislike Jax, but knowing the facts which are:

Invited to an after party they went to that party, taking some "friends and other invite's with them in their cars instead of sharing one car together. They are, like many Americans, in agreement with the law, carrying guns under permit from the authorities. Carrying a gun is not an unreasonable form of protection for "famous people" who also happen to be rich and therefore very high on the "target" list for accidents.
Whilst exiting the car, one person, likely to be the one riding said "passenger seat" loses a small quantity of weed, later to be found by the police when the owner of the vehicle permitted the police to search his vehicle,

Once on the premises, they were confronted by "thugs" who were either also invited, or (far more likely) in the process of leaving the premiss, because it became "out of bounds to the public as the after party planned was startng".
The content of the confrontation is up and until now unknown, but we can imagine several reasons or content types here, the most likely one being the fact that the least liked player on the Pacers was not kicked out, is a good enough reason for someone to start a fight.

The players, weary of these matters, decided that the best and most likely defusing action was to leave.
Upon doing so the thug thought that while he was "at it" he might as well play judge jury and executioner, by "removing" Jax from the Pacer's roster and smacked him in he mouth, requiring several stitches.
Jax went to his car, as did other Pacers players, still refusing to get into the altercation (VERY commendable), only to see the thug or his mates now run at him with a car with most certainly deadly intentions, instinctively he defends himself by pulling his gun, carried for that reason, and whilst hit by the car shoots the automatic weapon,
he has the presence of mind to hold on to the gun while bouncing on the hood and shoots more, enough to once he's off the car, chase the culprits away and make them think a few times about a retry.

The police arrives on the scene nearly at the same time the "press" does and the story becomes "braking news".
Only to be treated as "such" and that seems to mean; "turn of the brain, start the primate reaction system and start shouting your opinions"

And for me it was time to start puking.

You are the man after that post. Perfect, you nailed it 100%.

Big Smooth
10-07-2006, 09:11 PM
I'm not "able" but I'd like to answer anyways ;)

For YOUR INDIANA PACERS, do you approve of:

1. Jackson's part in the brawl?
Yes, he had the back of his teammate. That is all.

2. Jackson's cursing of the coach?
When did this happen? I apologize but I don't recall this particular episode.

3. Jackson's constant jaw-jacking at the refs?
That makes him no different than the majority of NBA players especially Pacers. The problem is when he fails to get back on defense in these situations. But SJax is far from the only guy to do this, Uncle Reggie was pretty good at it also. I'd imagine you were equally outraged at Reggie's little fits at the refs.

4. Jackson's need to take a firearm into an alcohol establishment?
What is wrong with a man keeping a LEGALLY LICENSED PIECE on him?

5. Jackson firing said firearm several times in a populated area as the
vehicle in question was, through all accounts, departing the scene?

Tougher question to answer. Where did he aim? If at the vehicle trying to run him down, then no I don't have a problem.

These traits have all been displayed over a period of time. They are his mode of operation. They are habitual. There is no expectation on my part that he will change.

Myself, I have no problem with a man who is willing to have his teammates back and defend himself. I don't see any pattern of behavior there which is negative. Honestly I think you are more concerned with his oncourt decision making and simply attempting to use the Malice in the Palace along with this Club Rio deal to support your negative opinion of his oncourt play. Which to me is pretty weak and complete hogwash but to each her own.

MagicRat
10-07-2006, 09:17 PM
5. Jackson firing said firearm several times in a populated area as the
vehicle in question was, through all accounts, departing the scene?

I think the reports say the security cam video shows him firing his first shot in the air just before he's hit by the car.......

ABADays
10-07-2006, 09:20 PM
I think the reports say the security cam video shows him firing his first shot in the air just before he's hit by the car.......

I wasn't talking about the one where he had the gun pointed at himself MR.

Pacersfan46
10-07-2006, 09:41 PM
Has anyone seen this recording from the parking lot, or are these all things you've just heard?

If you've seen it, I'd be interested in knowing where.

able
10-07-2006, 09:48 PM
I must have a lot of pent-up emotions being over here and just been looking for a "good fight". My friend able is helping along here ;) .

So able, for YOUR INDIANA PACERS, do you approve of:

1. Jackson's part in the brawl?

I am on record from moment one, meaning while the ruckus was still going on, that Jax was the "trigger" to the event, draw your own conclusion from that.


2. Jackson's cursing of the coach?

I think that he should've seen time-off for that, benched, for more then one game on repeats


3. Jackson's constant jaw-jacking at the refs?
See above point 2


4. Jackson's need to take a firearm into an alcohol establishment?
This is less tricky :) I condone, appreciate and understand that, however....
I dissaprove of all firearms, certainly when carried by non-law-enforcement officers or non-soldiers in time of peace.
Having said that, there are some caveats there, one being that in the USA it is a right to carry a weaon, he had a permit and if this case shows anything it is the sensibility of doing so if you are rich and famous, because there is always someone out there to get you.
As someone who has dealt with people who are/were constantly surrounded by body guards, because they are not allowed to carry weapons themselves in the countries I met them, I can underwrite the immense intrusion on your life that has, if given a choice I would probably make the same as Jax, but then again, I am much more a friend of the Louisville Slugger.
In short: yes I approve, this incident has proven that he is sensible enough not to draw it to early or use it for zilch, as he has proven in this case that he can refrain from violence when hit in the face.


5. Jackson firing said firearm several times in a populated area as the
vehicle in question was, through all accounts, departing the scene?
That is not a proven point, but while they just attempted to run him down, I can fully condone the "scaring them off to prevent a re-try"

These traits have all been displayed over a period of time. They are his mode of operation. They are habitual. There is no expectation on my part that he will change.

I think this particular incident should not be listed with any of the other things, here we should worry about his well being and why people who hit others and try to run them down by car (even if he refused a drink from them
which none of the sources I have stated, is that a reason to attempt to kill a man?) are still no apprehended and others who are the victim discussed ad nauseum as being the bad guys, not even to mention the reaction from TPTB.


I am merely stating I no longer want him on MY INDIANA PACERS.

I would have liked to see him traded earlier, that stance has not changed, nor worsened, not lightened, however I do not condone ppl trying to kill him because TPTB did not trade him, I will see how he does on the court and then decide whether I change my mind on him or not, let it not be mistaken, I am NOT a Jax fan and it is very easy to prove that

But I like to think that I am a man of reason and therefore I am worried about his well being and the well being of his teammates who were with him and perceptions, reservations and "representation issues have nothing to do with this incident, this was a hit and run, on purpose.

Evan_The_Dude
10-07-2006, 09:50 PM
I think the reports say the security cam video shows him firing his first shot in the air just before he's hit by the car.......

Exactly what I read.

Evan_The_Dude
10-07-2006, 09:56 PM
I'm worried about his well being not only now, but from this point on as a Pacer. If they don't find the guys that did this, will they show up at a Pacers game and try to attack him again? That's what I'm more worried about.

ABADays
10-07-2006, 10:10 PM
I'm wearing able down :-p

sixthman
10-07-2006, 10:15 PM
Eindar, Able is saying that it WAS a private party.

Well, if it was a private party, which I doubt, then the identity of the other "guests" who battled with Jackson would have been known immediately, wouldn't they?

The harm that Stephen has done the Pacers wasn't intentional I'm sure, but the damage still needs to be included in the calculation of Jack's viability.

naptown
10-07-2006, 10:26 PM
5. Jackson firing said firearm several times in a populated area as the
vehicle in question was, through all accounts, departing the scene?



That is not true at all. Please go read the facts.

naptown
10-07-2006, 10:27 PM
Right on Able!! Great thread!!!

ABADays
10-07-2006, 10:36 PM
That is not true at all. Please go read the facts.

I stand corrected. The Star report does say the first shot was into the air as the car approached him. The other shots were probably at the basket.

naptown
10-07-2006, 10:38 PM
The other shots were probably at the basket.

Lol......That was after he held it for 16 seconds and refused to let Tins or Daniels have it.

Destined4Greatness
10-07-2006, 10:52 PM
Lol......That was after he held it for 16 seconds and refused to let Tins or Daniels have it.

LOL see the anti-Jackson people can't hold up their end of the argument so they just go to the insults.

So I guess I will a have to insult back.

Why would he pass it to Tins and Daniels, they were both on the bench in street clothes with ingrown Toenails.

Los Angeles
10-07-2006, 10:53 PM
Well, if it was a private party, which I doubt, then the identity of the other "guests" who battled with Jackson would have been known immediately, wouldn't they?

The harm that Stephen has done the Pacers wasn't intentional I'm sure, but the damage still needs to be included in the calculation of Jack's viability.

This is all covered already in this very thread. The club was in transition - the general public was being asked to leave because the place was closing for the party.

If all these facts are accurate, here's the sequence of events from the players perspective:

- the players agree to go to a friend-of-a-friend's private "after party" with a large group of people
- they show up a little early when the club is still open to the public
- trouble starts up with certain clientelle
- the players try to leave
- confrontation continues outside
- Jackson is assaulted (bad enough to need stitches)
- His assailants get into a car
- Jackson pulls a gun and shots are fired as he's run down by his assailants' car, throwing him onto the hood
- the car speeds off to who knows where
- mayhem - people scrambling - people coming to Jackson's aid.
- the players all stay where they are, wait for the cops to come, give statements, show permits and cooperate completely including agreeing to searches
- a small bag of pot is found in Tinsley's car, it's origins unknown

BlueNGold
10-07-2006, 10:57 PM
Now, 36 hours later, facts dribble in;

They were (likely) at an "afer party" that happened to be held at the premises.

Celebrating the birthday of the best friend of Marquis Daniels borther.



I would like to know more about this "after party". Where did you find these "facts". Did the dancers serve cake and ice cream?...or something else. More fuel for the fire.

naptown
10-07-2006, 11:03 PM
LOL see the anti-Jackson people can't hold up their end of the argument so they just go to the insults.

So I guess I will a have to insult back.

Why would he pass it to Tins and Daniels, they were both on the bench in street clothes with ingrown Toenails.

You obviously dont have a clue what you are talking about. I have been defending Jackson and the other players about this incident since the get go.

But that dont change the FACT that Jack had a bad habit of holding the ball too long last year.... and its called a joke, not an insult.

Be it my favorite player or my least favorite player, I can still be honest about their strengths and weaknesses. And will poke fun at both.

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 11:06 PM
I always try to schedule my parties for 3:00 am.

(If this new twist is accurate, then it looks like they were planning to stay up a lot later--maybe till breakfast.)

Los Angeles
10-07-2006, 11:10 PM
I always try to schedule my parties for 3:00 am.

(If this new twist is accurate, then it looks like they were planning to stay up a lot later--maybe till breakfast.)
Par for the course where I live. :shrug:

Eindar
10-07-2006, 11:36 PM
Eindar, Able is saying that it WAS a private party.

If that's the case, then what were "Fingers" and Dino, Club Rio regulars, doing there?

EDIT: After reading some more of the thread, the "story" doesn't add up. Every event I've been to, when there's going to be a private party forcing them to close their doors early, they let the customers know WELL in advance that they're either shutting down early or whatever. If it's a situation where the Pacers were sitting there at closing time, and the management was making the regulars leave but not the Pacers, and the drunken losers were starting trouble over it, that's management's responsibility. Again, they had no business being in that club at that time of night. They could have picked PT's, the Classy Chassis, Either Brad's, and had no problems with riff-raff. Also, as was said before, if the after-party started at 3, likely it wouldn't be over before 5, which means the beloved victims planned on getting no more than 6 hours of sleep before they had to run their asses off for 3 straight hours.

naptown
10-07-2006, 11:46 PM
No, I mean "We're buying the club for the night, everybody else get out". If that's the case, then what were "Fingers" and Dino, Club Rio regulars, doing there?

The place was open to the public prior to the private party. The clubs employees were in the process of getting the public out of the place.

Fingers and Dino and company obviously took exception to being told to leave just because some celebrities were having a private party.

Pacersfan46
10-07-2006, 11:48 PM
The place was open to the public prior to the private party. The clubs employees were in the process of getting the public out of the place.

Fingers and Dino and company obviously took exception to being told to leave just because some celebrities were having a private party.


That does raise the question of why the PLAYERS went outside then.

Jermaniac
10-07-2006, 11:53 PM
And this is why Able is the best poster on here. Everytime he comes out with one of these long posts he owns this whole forum.

naptown
10-08-2006, 12:01 AM
They were probably trying to just get the hell out of the way and let the Club Rio employees do their job and then go back inside when they cleared the public out.

And by everything that has been reported, including commentary by those who have seen the security camera footage, that appears to be exactly what happened. All eye witness accounts have said the Pacer players did everything they could to avoid a confrontation.

It just amazes me that people want to fry these guys so bad that they can just ignore every piece of evidence and eye witness account that has been reported thus far.

vapacersfan
10-08-2006, 12:34 AM
Still bad judgement shown by the players, IMO.

Other then that, I agree it is kind of disguisting how the media jumped all over this so quicly and did not report an acurate (first) story. That doesnt surprise me, though.

DisplacedKnick
10-08-2006, 12:41 AM
I always try to schedule my parties for 3:00 am.

(If this new twist is accurate, then it looks like they were planning to stay up a lot later--maybe till breakfast.)

Well, I don't know the Indy City Ordinance but I'd think most strip clubs stay open as late as they possibly can.

If 3 AM's the closing dictated by the ordinance then they wouldn't be able to stay open for a private after-hours party. Closed is closed - I can't imagine a city ordinance that says, in essence, "You have to close by 3 - but if you close to the general public but have a hundred people in there for a private party it's OK."

You CAN hire dancers for private parties through Rio, just like you can with Babes (The Babes Brats) or PT's - but those are generally at a place you've rented for the purpose.

Eindar
10-08-2006, 02:29 AM
Well, I don't know the Indy City Ordinance but I'd think most strip clubs stay open as late as they possibly can.

If 3 AM's the closing dictated by the ordinance then they wouldn't be able to stay open for a private after-hours party. Closed is closed - I can't imagine a city ordinance that says, in essence, "You have to close by 3 - but if you close to the general public but have a hundred people in there for a private party it's OK."

You CAN hire dancers for private parties through Rio, just like you can with Babes (The Babes Brats) or PT's - but those are generally at a place you've rented for the purpose.

It gets tricky. The strip clubs don't shut down because they have to, they shut down because you can't sell alcohol between 3am and 7 am, and that's their main form of revenue. Maybe they stay open past 3am, and since they're making money on the rental, they don't sell alcohol, BYOB style?

I think the entire truth is still unknown, and I imagine that's the way it always will be. For instance, maybe Fingers started the fight because he caught Tinsley snickering at his deformity? We just don't know, and without some security tape and quoted firsthand testimony, I'm not willing to condemn or pardon them.

For the last time, they never should have been there to begin with.

Moses
10-08-2006, 03:01 AM
Great post and exactly how I've felt all along. Finally, someone looks at the situation from a logical standpoint.

Israfan
10-08-2006, 03:50 AM
No matter how and what have happened, a player invloved in shooting in the strip bar at 3 am during training camp is WRONG.
There is nothing that can turn this upside down.

A serious players shoudn't :

-Go out till 3 am during training camp.
-Go to the strip bar.
-Carry/fire weapons when they go out.
-Compromise themselfs by weed presence. (Do you really believe this is not Tins weed?!)

IMO they are just a bunch of guys that want to have fun - drinks, girls, guns; they have no discipline. I'm not saying they are bad or something, but getting into this situation suggests that they do not take their jobs too seriously.

Pacesetter
10-08-2006, 03:52 AM
No matter how and what have happened, a player invloved in shooting in the strip bar at 3 am during training camp is WRONG.
There is nothing that can turn this upside down.

A serious players shoudn't :

-Go out till 3 am during training camp.
-Go to the strip bar.
-Carry/fire weapons when they go out.
-Compromise themselfs by weed presence. (Do you really believe this is not Tins weed?!)

IMO they are just a bunch of guys that want to have fun - drinks, girls, guns; they have no discipline. I'm not saying they are bad or something, but getting into this situation suggests that they do not take their jobs too seriously.

Amen!

spazzxb
10-08-2006, 04:47 AM
Amen! aww you found a friend:-) This incident shows exactly why Jackson needs to carry a gun. He needs to protect himself from crazed message board posters.

D-BONE
10-08-2006, 08:35 AM
I'm not "able" but I'd like to answer anyways ;)

For YOUR INDIANA PACERS, do you approve of:

1. Jackson's part in the brawl?
Yes, he had the back of his teammate. That is all.

2. Jackson's cursing of the coach?
When did this happen? I apologize but I don't recall this particular episode.

3. Jackson's constant jaw-jacking at the refs?
That makes him no different than the majority of NBA players especially Pacers. The problem is when he fails to get back on defense in these situations. But SJax is far from the only guy to do this, Uncle Reggie was pretty good at it also. I'd imagine you were equally outraged at Reggie's little fits at the refs.

4. Jackson's need to take a firearm into an alcohol establishment?
What is wrong with a man keeping a LEGALLY LICENSED PIECE on him?

5. Jackson firing said firearm several times in a populated area as the
vehicle in question was, through all accounts, departing the scene?

Tougher question to answer. Where did he aim? If at the vehicle trying to run him down, then no I don't have a problem.

These traits have all been displayed over a period of time. They are his mode of operation. They are habitual. There is no expectation on my part that he will change.

Myself, I have no problem with a man who is willing to have his teammates back and defend himself. I don't see any pattern of behavior there which is negative. Honestly I think you are more concerned with his oncourt decision making and simply attempting to use the Malice in the Palace along with this Club Rio deal to support your negative opinion of his oncourt play. Which to me is pretty weak and complete hogwash but to each her own.


Great start, Able! Great retort, Smooth!

It's not right IMO to conflate the Club Rio thing and Jack's on-court transgressions.

If you believe Jack's on court issues to have sufficient negative impact to take some action like moving him for little to nothing, fine. It is a defensible position. Not one I agree with just yet, but the argument can be made.

Involving this recent snafu in that debate is not relevant since it's not involving the performance area.

For those who want such a crackdown for this activity, I don't understand why you don't want stiffer and or the same actions against the other three guys. If it's so important to clean up the image and move out the cancers with Club Rio just being another example of where things are heading, you'd really have to make a big-time example of all of them in a sort of zero tolerance way.

Hicks
10-08-2006, 09:07 AM
The strip-club was the place for the AFTER party, not the party itself.

DisplacedKnick
10-08-2006, 09:12 AM
It gets tricky. The strip clubs don't shut down because they have to, they shut down because you can't sell alcohol between 3am and 7 am, and that's their main form of revenue. Maybe they stay open past 3am, and since they're making money on the rental, they don't sell alcohol, BYOB style?


Dunno - those places are pretty strictly regulated. I believe they have a special title for them - Adult Cabaret?

I'd think a bar owner would be more likely to say, "Well, we can get you some girls but we can't hold it here." But I could be wrong.

hoopsforlife
10-08-2006, 10:14 AM
After reading these varying posts about this unfortunate situation, I conclude I have been wrong. Orginally I was in favor of just releasing these guys, cutting our losses and clean up the teams character, image and morals in one fell swoop.

Now I believe we should offer them all extentions and have them ask Rick Carlisle if they should sign them.

Then the players should be given a 2 week leave of absense to visit with their wives and get things straightend out at home. If they need more time to smooth things over just let them have it. With pay. I know it must be difficult paying for all the drinks, girls and fun times. These things cost money and are not cheap!!

All the other guys who don't attend strip clubs and who want to play a silly game for millions of dollars can hold the fort while these boys recover. Yes indeed, I have been too judgemental and hard on them.

I apologize to any player who might have been offended by my previous, albeit, hasty position on this situation.

naptown
10-08-2006, 10:37 AM
A serious players shoudn't :

-Go out till 3 am during training camp.

Who here wants to guess the percentage of NBA players that have been out til 3AM during training camp? 40%? 50%? 60%? More?


-Go to the strip bar.

Who here wants to guess the percentage of NBA players that have been to a strip joint? 50%? 60%? 70%? More?


-Carry/fire weapons when they go out.

Who here wants to guess the percentage of NBA players that have carried a weapon at one time or another? 40%? 50%? 60%? More?


-Compromise themselfs by weed presence. (Do you really believe this is not Tins weed?!)

Who here wants to guess the percentage of NBA players that have at least one close friend or relative that smokes weed? 50%? 60%? 70%? More?

Yes I really believe it was not Tins' weed. Maybe guilt by association is par for the course where you live, but in America it dont work that way.

So with that all being said, I would have to guess, by your definition, that 50-60 percent of the NBA are not serious players......

Unclebuck
10-08-2006, 10:38 AM
I'm always facinated by stuff like:

Which of the 4 who went really didn't want to or almost didn't but either was talked into going or decided at the last minute to go.

I wonder if other Pacers players almost went, but in the end decided not to or simply couldn't.

Or I wonder if there were other Pacers players there earlier, but went home at 2:55 and just missed all the fun.

Just things I ponder in these types of situations

Raskolnikov
10-08-2006, 10:43 AM
Who here wants to guess the percentage of NBA players that have been out til 3AM during training camp? 40%? 50%? 60%? More?

Who here wants to guess the percentage of NBA players that have carried a weapon at one time or another? 40%? 50%? 60%? More?

So?

That doesn't make it any less stupid, does it?


Maybe guilt by association is par for the course where you live, but in America it dont work that way.
I see your point, but the way you formulate it is just annoying.


So with that all being said, I would have to guess, by your definition, that 50-60 percent of the NBA are not serious players......
Yup.

naptown
10-08-2006, 10:48 AM
So?

That doesn't make it any less stupid, does it?


I see your point, but the way you formulate it is just annoying.


Yup.

Simply pointing out that everything on that guys list is not an isolated situation. Was that really that hard to figure out? It had nothing to do with being "stupid" or not.

Most people usually are annoyed by the truth when the truth is something they dont like or want to be.

Raskolnikov
10-08-2006, 11:27 AM
Simply pointing out that everything on that guys list is not an isolated situation. Was that really that hard to figure out?
Apparently it was.

Mostly, when you point something out, you're trying to make a point as well. So I thought that, when you were saying that it isn't an isolated situation, you were trying to make a point as well (that that makes it less stupid). Not just saying this isn't an isolated situation. That's like a lawyer stating all sorts of facts in a court room, but never using them in his plea to save his client, never drawing any conclusions.

But, since


It had nothing to do with being "stupid" or not.

it seems like I'm going to have to accept it.


Most people usually are annoyed by the truth when the truth is something they dont like or want to be.
I wasn't annoyed by your point (that you shouldn't judge before there's enough evidence). I was annoyed by the arrogant way you formulated it.

Pacersfan46
10-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Yup.

Good deal, if you think 50-60% of NBA players aren't serious then you can quit paying attention to it. Stop coming to this board to talk about it, and the problem is solved.

If you have a problem with that many of the players you shouldn't carry any interest anyway.

LG33
10-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Maybe Jackson will use this situation as extra motivation to play harder and smarter on the court...but probably not.

Raskolnikov
10-08-2006, 12:07 PM
Good deal, if you think 50-60% of NBA players aren't serious then you can quit paying attention to it. Stop coming to this board to talk about it, and the problem is solved.

If you have a problem with that many of the players you shouldn't carry any interest anyway.
Yes, I think that players that go out till 3 am during training camp and carry weapons when they go out are not serious players.

I have no idea about the percentages. If it's 50-60% like you're claiming, then I indeed have a problem with 50-60% of the NBA players.

Whether that should hold me back from following the NBA, enjoy the basketball games, support the Pacers or coming to this board to share my thoughts is something else.

able
10-08-2006, 12:24 PM
Yes, I think that players that go out till 3 am during training camp and carry weapons when they go out are not serious players.

I have no idea about the percentages. If it's 50-60% like you're claiming, then I indeed have a problem with 50-60% of the NBA players.

Whether that should hold me back from following the NBA, enjoy the basketball games, support the Pacers or coming to this board to share my thoughts is something else.

Rasko,

Please do not forget that there is a difference in carrying a gun in Be as compared to US, you can of course start thinking about the law in BE, with the option of having a rifle (how many are there again in "use" in BE, as they are legit)
Secondly these people are rich and famous, it is either that or be surrounded by bodyguards ALL the time (see JO, who has 4 with him anywhere he goes)
Millions of Americans lawfully carry a gun on them at all time, the more you feel you have to protect (and a young athlete with loads of money has a lot to protect) the sooner you will ask for a permit.

Lastly; If you work evening shift, and have to start work at 3.30 PM you will likely not be in bed before 3 AM, as there is no need, even if you go to bed at 5 Am you will still have 7 - 8 hours of sleep (perrish the thought, I on avg sleep <4 ) so that puts the time frame in a different view, as the next practise was scheduled for Friday Afternoon at 3.30 PM.

Finally, unlike in the UK or NL or BE or D the USA does not really know the phenom of a "Pub", "Stube", "Bierhalle", "Cafe", "Kroeg" and so on, it is simply not there, either a "bar" or a "club" or a "restaurant" and the latter outside of the "chains" are rare as well, not like Antwerp for instance.

Eindar
10-08-2006, 01:53 PM
Dunno - those places are pretty strictly regulated. I believe they have a special title for them - Adult Cabaret?

I'd think a bar owner would be more likely to say, "Well, we can get you some girls but we can't hold it here." But I could be wrong.

Well, I've thumbed through Indy and State law concerning "cabarets" (don't ask), and I found a lot of wierd little rules that they have to abide by, but in this case, I'm pretty sure it's the inability to sell alcohol from 3-7, which, coincidentally, is the time every other bar in town also shuts down. (also, there are no "nude" clubs allowed in Indiana, which prevents the other angle past 3am, which is turning it into a "juice bar".)

I know that according to state law, the stage has to be a minimum of 18" above ground floor level, and patrons are strictly prohibited from touching the performers. Also, all "entertainment" areas have to be in plain view, meaning no closed doors. Saloon-style swinging doors are ok, as are half-doors, as long as it doesn't leave dancer and customer in complete privacy.

My experience with the lawmakers vs. cabarets is that they attempt to fence them in by making strange laws that don't specifically target cabarets, but cabarets are the only establishments effected by the law.

Israfan
10-08-2006, 05:45 PM
Yes I really believe it was not Tins' weed. Maybe guilt by association is par for the course where you live, but in America it dont work that way.

So with that all being said, I would have to guess, by your definition, that 50-60 percent of the NBA are not serious players......

Why is it important where I live?! I'm not blaming anybody, but making guesses based on one particularly useful feeling called common sense.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
50-60 % is your estimation. I don't believe it. But if it is true, than that 50-60 percent of the NBA are not serious players.....<o:p></o:p>

Raskolnikov
10-08-2006, 07:41 PM
Rasko,

Please do not forget that there is a difference in carrying a gun in Be as compared to US, you can of course start thinking about the law in BE, with the option of having a rifle (how many are there again in "use" in BE, as they are legit)
Secondly these people are rich and famous, it is either that or be surrounded by bodyguards ALL the time (see JO, who has 4 with him anywhere he goes)
Millions of Americans lawfully carry a gun on them at all time, the more you feel you have to protect (and a young athlete with loads of money has a lot to protect) the sooner you will ask for a permit.
It's definitely true that our cultures differ enormously from the American culture regarding weaponry. That's maybe part of the reason (other than my personal beliefs) why I find it downright scary that, as you say, millions of Americans carry a gun on them all the time.

They're famous, so they know they're going to be the target of the occasional moron trying to prove something. In this case, they went to a place where it's rather likely to encounter that occasional moron. They could've avoided all their troubles by not going there.

I study in Gent and my room is located next to the Citadel park, a park that's infamous for it's robberies and especially it's gay population (at night). It's not exactly a good idea to go walking around in the park at night (ok, I did it once, but, in my defense, I was really, really drunk at the time ;)). Chances are good that you're mugged and/or harassed/raped.

Same goes for famous people going to a strip club in the middle of the night. You know that there will be some strange people there, and that the chances that you get into trouble are very well present. And you can avoid possible problems by not going. If really needed, they could've hired a stripteaseuse instead.

They're rich, so they know they're a target for robberies. Home robberies that is. When they're out on the street, I can't imagine they carry loads of cash with them. Other than that, they only have their fancy car left to be stolen. But just because they're famous, and are mostly out in public, chance is very small they will ever be robbed on the street. That's why I said before I could understand a bit that they'd keep a gun at home for protection.

Regarding being rich and thus becoming a target for robbery, living life a bit more simple/humble wouldn't hurt. The money they get paid is already ridicously high. The way they're spending it is even more ridiculous. Do they really need 20 different cars, 5 different houses and 200 different pairs of shoes (please be gentle, VA)?

What I'm trying to say is that, rather than carry guns to defend themselves against possible problems, they should try and avoid getting into trouble in the first place. There's places enough to go to where it's very unlikely they will encounter the occasional moron.



Lastly; If you work evening shift, and have to start work at 3.30 PM you will likely not be in bed before 3 AM, as there is no need, even if you go to bed at 5 Am you will still have 7 - 8 hours of sleep (perrish the thought, I on avg sleep <4 ) so that puts the time frame in a different view, as the next practise was scheduled for Friday Afternoon at 3.30 PM.
There's no need if you're not a professional athlete. When you're an NBA player in the middle of training camp, your body and mind need rest. Going out that late will definitely affect you in some way, even if practice is only scheduled for the afternoon.

I'd even expect them to be that tired after the previous work out that they don't have the energy anymore to go out.

JMO

Btw, you only sleep 4 hours? That's crazy. I really need my 7 hours of sleep, preferably even 8 or 9.

EDIT - To summarize, IMO they made two mistakes:

1. Going out that late
2. Going to a place where problems will likely arise

We still don't know all the details, but it seems that what happened afterwards is to be blamed entirely on our occasionals morons of the night, Dino and Fingers. That our players, and Steve Jackson in particular, handled the situation rather well.

Let it also be clear however that I don't like it at all that they were packing guns. But that may be more something of a cultural thing (though individual too of course).

able
10-08-2006, 07:56 PM
Just for you then rasko, on average they will carry jewelry in exces of 250 K (US) and most of them carry serious wads of cash as well (thousands)

It is "normal" in their circuit i think.

and yes 4 hours, which according to ppl who know it all is enough for the body to recoup, the mind is another matter, but I deem mine to be beyond rescue anyway :D

Raskolnikov
10-08-2006, 08:06 PM
Just for you then rasko, on average they will carry jewelry in exces of 250 K (US) and most of them carry serious wads of cash as well (thousands)

It is "normal" in their circuit i think.
Well, all I can say is that that isn't very smart.



and yes 4 hours, which according to ppl who know it all is enough for the body to recoup, the mind is another matter, but I deem mine to be beyond rescue anyway :D
Yeah, from what I've heard a human being especially needs to sleep because the mind needs rest, not because of the body.

Speaking of which (sleep), I'm going to get some.:goodnight:

Charcoal Filtered
10-08-2006, 08:45 PM
I have suffered thru this out here in Oregon and it makes me sick to do the same thing with my hometown Pacers.

When I go home, I love taking my nephews to ball games. When I go to my grandparents, I like watching the game on an 11" TV they have on the dishwasher while making dinner. We can also talk about the team. As said, this is Indiana and basketball is something different here.

Even during the losing seasons, we could always talk about the team. Now, I have to explain to my nephews why Artest going into the stands was wrong. I have to explain why it is wrong to try to fix a fight by Jackson throwin haymakers at anyone in Detroit. I have to talk to my Grandmother about marijuana, going to a strip club at 3am, firing a gun, and the general classless actions on the court of this team.

It is not too much to ask for these guys to realize why we are paying these high prices 41 times a year (more for preseason, league pass, and playoffs) and for them to act with maturity/class. If I wanted to talk about these things with my nephews or grandparents, we would just talk about the government.

Evan_The_Dude
10-09-2006, 09:21 AM
Yes, I think that players that go out till 3 am during training camp and carry weapons when they go out are not serious players.

Well, say goodbye to the NBA then because I'd be willing to bet that 50% number is more like 80-90% during the regular season.

RWB
10-09-2006, 09:25 AM
I wonder if other Pacers players almost went, but in the end decided not to or simply couldn't.


Good question UB, however I would include decided not to go because it would be a bad choice.

Raskolnikov
10-09-2006, 09:50 AM
Well, say goodbye to the NBA then because I'd be willing to bet that 50% number is more like 80-90% during the regular season.
I have to love everything NBA players do to be allowed to follow the NBA?

ChicagoJ
10-09-2006, 05:26 PM
Well, say goodbye to the NBA then because I'd be willing to bet that 50% number is more like 80-90% during the regular season.

Well fine, that leaves 10% to 20% of the players in the NBA that I want on the Pacers.

Let's see, 30 * 14 = 420 *10% = 42. 30 * 14 = 420 * 20% = 84.

That's enough to pick from.

I want the other teams to deal with these clowns, though.

Pacesetter
10-11-2006, 03:27 PM
Yes, at least I am, utterly disgusted, nauseatingly disgusted.
It is my main reason for being silent till now, I felt it hard to keep composure and stay calm.

Let's start with the media reporting this as:

"Pacers involved in shooting incident at strip club at 3 AM!"

and we can imagine the next:

"Dope found in Pacer's car after shooting incident"

but most of us missed the:

Pacers player(s) victim of "hit and run" accident.


And most of the people here and in Pacers Land, jumped on the first headline.
Jax was involved so there was no longer any thought into what "really" happened, no thought about his health and the health of the other players involved, even the front office reacted in the same "primitive" way that the fans did, they took down billboards (stopped new ones) took down a promo on their web-site and released a "mea culpa" statement.

Now, 36 hours later, facts dribble in;

They were (likely) at an "afer party" that happened to be held at the premises.
Celebrating the birthday of the best friend of Marquis Daniels borther.

Camera's show Jax being hit and then ran-down with a car before he shot.

Short: He was a VICTIM.

The "weed found" (it went from "maybe just enough for 1 joint" to "just enough for 1 or maybe 2 joints") in Tinsley's car;

Despite the FACT that there were 3 or 4 people in the car with him, it was not found in the dash, his seat or anywhere on him, he has never tested positive for drug tests in the NBA (that EVERY player undergoes several times a year and they DO test for weed as well) nobody even thinks that if it was HIS, and he kept it in the car, it would be in the glove compartment, the console, his pocket or (if it fell out of his pocket) his seat, but NOT on a seat OCCUPIED by someone when traveling or they would have taken it off the seat when getting in the car.

With all the hatred for Jax (and I certainly am not a fan of him) that goes on, most posters overlook the truth in front of them, that there are more people who dislike Jax, that it is likely that some unknown (till now) real "thug" decided to "take it to him" when he spotted him at the club, or got upset that he got thrown out and Jax & Co didn't.
That the reason they were leaving was BECAUSE of this "thug" starting to pick on them and they tried to de-escalate the incident by "just leaving" instead.
That the "thug" did now feel even more powerfull and decided to make sure that Jax would no longer play for "his" team.

Overlooked is the fact that the next training was scheduled for 3.30 PM the next day, not 9 AM.
That maybe there was a reason for that late start?

That going to bed at 5 AM aint that bad if you have to report at 3.30 PM to work.
(translate that to starting at 9 AM and going to bed at 10.30 PM, because that is the exact same time frame)

Yet all are lynching the players;
Jax, a wannabe thug who should have been send off anyway now has to go immediately
Tins a junkie, drop him,
Daniels, victim of the "jax" influence, but has to go to now,
Snap, kick him out of camp.

And what is worst, TPTB act the SAME!

as the new Vice President of Basketball said:

"it is unfortunate that they were there at that hour (it shows bad judgement)"

Does it? going to bed at 10.30 PM if you have to go to work is "bad judgement"?
Going to an "After Party" of a concert (invites only) which (unfortunately) happened to be at a "gentleman's club" is "bad judgement"?

So going with the guys from the office to "hooters" at 6 PM after work is "good judgement"?



People are reacting with their feet instead of their brain, saddening, to say the least.

I dislike Jax, but knowing the facts which are:

Invited to an after party they went to that party, taking some "friends and other invite's with them in their cars instead of sharing one car together. They are, like many Americans, in agreement with the law, carrying guns under permit from the authorities. Carrying a gun is not an unreasonable form of protection for "famous people" who also happen to be rich and therefore very high on the "target" list for accidents.
Whilst exiting the car, one person, likely to be the one riding said "passenger seat" loses a small quantity of weed, later to be found by the police when the owner of the vehicle permitted the police to search his vehicle,

Once on the premises, they were confronted by "thugs" who were either also invited, or (far more likely) in the process of leaving the premiss, because it became "out of bounds to the public as the after party planned was startng".
The content of the confrontation is up and until now unknown, but we can imagine several reasons or content types here, the most likely one being the fact that the least liked player on the Pacers was not kicked out, is a good enough reason for someone to start a fight.

The players, weary of these matters, decided that the best and most likely defusing action was to leave.
Upon doing so the thug thought that while he was "at it" he might as well play judge jury and executioner, by "removing" Jax from the Pacer's roster and smacked him in he mouth, requiring several stitches.
Jax went to his car, as did other Pacers players, still refusing to get into the altercation (VERY commendable), only to see the thug or his mates now run at him with a car with most certainly deadly intentions, instinctively he defends himself by pulling his gun, carried for that reason, and whilst hit by the car shoots the automatic weapon,
he has the presence of mind to hold on to the gun while bouncing on the hood and shoots more, enough to once he's off the car, chase the culprits away and make them think a few times about a retry.

The police arrives on the scene nearly at the same time the "press" does and the story becomes "braking news".
Only to be treated as "such" and that seems to mean; "turn of the brain, start the primate reaction system and start shouting your opinions"

And for me it was time to start puking.

If you were sick then, I bet you're heavin now eh mate? :D

able
10-11-2006, 03:32 PM
If you were sick then, I bet you're heavin now eh mate? :D

Yes, from your smile, you seem to forget a few things:

1: Human beings are involved in this.
2: Innocent till proven guilty.
3: It takes 2 to fight at minimum.

vapacersfan
10-11-2006, 03:43 PM
Yes, from your smile, you seem to forget a few things:

1: Human beings are involved in this.
2: Innocent till proven guilty.
3: It takes 2 to fight at minimum.

That is why I have been scared all along.

It has been great to see the people here, and in general, support Jackson, but as most people know it takes two to fight. So even if S-Jax did nothing wrong and tried to walk away from the fight peacefully, which we now know is not the case, then this thing was not going to go quietly.

Since86
10-11-2006, 03:49 PM
So even if S-Jax did nothing wrong and tried to walk away from the fight peacefully, which we now know is not the case, then this thing was not going to go quietly.

:confused: All the reports are saying Jax and crew were leaving specifically to get away from the hecklers, and Dino and Fingers followed them outside threatening to shoot them.

If leaving a club to get away from someone, isn't trying to walk away, then I don't know what is. Up until that point, I would say they were handling the situation the way everyone would want them to treat it.(Other than being there ofcourse.)

DisplacedKnick
10-11-2006, 04:04 PM
:confused: All the reports are saying Jax and crew were leaving specifically to get away from the hecklers, and Dino and Fingers followed them outside threatening to shoot them.

If leaving a club to get away from someone, isn't trying to walk away, then I don't know what is. Up until that point, I would say they were handling the situation the way everyone would want them to treat it.(Other than being there ofcourse.)

Change that to "all the reports according to Pacers players" and you'll have it right.

Jackson has 3 problems here. First, some of the evidence doesn't fit his statement. Second, he's changed his statement over time. Third, eyewitnesses.

It's not like the guys he's up against are pillars of the community but that doesn't change the fact that spent shell casings were found near his car, that he fired before the car hit him, that he wasn't punched, that he was kicking some dude on the ground ...

That list goes on and on.

vapacersfan
10-11-2006, 04:09 PM
:confused: All the reports are saying Jax and crew were leaving specifically to get away from the hecklers, and Dino and Fingers followed them outside threatening to shoot them.

If leaving a club to get away from someone, isn't trying to walk away, then I don't know what is. Up until that point, I would say they were handling the situation the way everyone would want them to treat it.(Other than being there ofcourse.)

Maybe its just me, but I dont buy that they just walked out peacefully.

Would these guys really keep jawing with the group if they were just walking out to there cars and left?

I tend to think both parties were jawing back and forth, but that's just my opinion.

As for who threatened who, I thought I read that Jax threatened the group? Maybe I misread that.

Either way, it takes two to tango. Sadly, in this case one of the two happens to be a professional athlete.

EDIT: Yeah, what DK said. :D

Since86
10-11-2006, 10:35 PM
That response was before I read the police report.

Right now, I'm not sure my reaction.