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Peck
10-07-2006, 03:26 AM
By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com
The Indiana Pacers spent all summer rebuilding their team and their image.


Just three days into training camp, a shooting incident early Friday involving Stephen Jackson and three teammates has left the franchise dealing with another public relations nightmare.
Pacers officials spent the summer mingling with on-the-fence season-ticket holders at parties. They purchased newspaper ads, sprinkled billboards throughout the city and appeared in commercials touting a new image: "It's up to us."
On Friday, the team suspended those commercials and removed a promotional video from its Web site.
The incident outside a Westside strip club came as the franchise was trying to recover from the lingering effects of the brawl in Detroit in November 2004.
Indianapolis police say Jackson was slugged in the face and hit by a car before he fired five shots from a 9 mm handgun outside Club Rio, 5054 W. 38th St.
Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Marquis Daniels and Jimmie "Snap" Hunter cooperated with police. No arrests have been made, and police say the evidence supports Jackson's claim that he fired the gun in self-defense.
The court of popular opinion viewed the incident from another perspective.
"On ESPN this morning, they were making fun of the Indiana Pacers," former Pacers guard Billy Keller said Friday. "Even though I'm not a part of this group, I still carry an Indiana Pacer name with me. To be associated with something that looks to be a very negative thing, it does reflect on all of us. It's a sad thing for the Indiana Pacers, and I'm part of it.
"I didn't feel very good about it. We don't want to be a laughingstock."
Pacers coach Rick Carlisle said the team takes responsibility for what happened.
"Our players realize that being out that late in training camp is not the right thing. We know it. It was an error in judgment, and it has to change," he said.
For years, the Pacers were regarded as a model NBA franchise. Players such as Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson and Rik Smits were fan favorites.
The team's image was sullied in 2004, when Jackson followed Ron Artest into the stands in Detroit.
The Pacers tried to put that incident behind them last year. Pacers President Larry Bird even posed with Artest on the cover of Sports Illustrated, only to have Artest ask for a trade a month into the regular season.
The Pacers' antics on the court haven't won much support, either. Constant complaining, at officials and among themselves, has turned off fans. Worse, it led some to stay away from Conseco Fieldhouse.
The Pacers averaged 16,180 fans per game last season -- their lowest average since 1997-98. Playoff attendance was even lower.
Mark Jackson, now an analyst, justified the empty seats by calling the Pacers "a tough team to embrace."
Now this.
All-Star forward Jermaine O'Neal said Friday this isn't the same team, but some of the same perceptions remain.
"They basically shot themselves in the foot, no pun intended," said Marc Ganis, president of Sportscorp Ltd., a Chicago-based sports consultancy firm. "It's incredibly counterproductive when a team is trying to re-establish its connection to their fan base. That really can't help them win back fans.
"An observer would be shocked by the behavior after everything that has happened to the franchise in the past. You would think things would be headed in the right direction. This latest incident will cause some to wonder what's going on with the Pacers, just like they did when all that stuff was happening with the Portland Trail Blazers."
The thought of cheering players who visit strip clubs with guns in their car is too much for some.
"I'm not a ticket holder, but I attend my fair share of games, and sadly, the good guys of the past have been replaced with selfish guys," said Mike Nicholas, Fishers. "Ultimately, it's about bringing kids to the games. But it gets old with whining and complaining. Our problem is we were spoiled with guys like Reggie and (Mark) Jackson. That's not the case anymore. We're stuck with these guys, and that's not a good thing."


Call Star reporter Mike Wells at (317) 444-6053.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061007/SPORTS04/610070507/1088


By Vic Ryckaert
vic.ryckaert@indystar.com
Indiana Pacers forward Stephen Jackson appeared to be justified when he fired five gunshots outside a Westside strip club early Friday, police said.

"Right now, from all the evidence we've gathered," said Sgt. Matthew Mount, an Indianapolis Police Department spokesman, it looks like Jackson and three teammates "were the victims in this case."
Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Marquis Daniels and Jimmie "Snap" Hunter were involved in the shooting incident Friday morning at Club Rio, 5054 W. 38th St.
Jackson fired five shots from a 9 mm handgun after a man punched him in the face and tried to run him over with a car outside the club at 3 a.m., Mount said.
Marion County prosecutors will evaluate the evidence and make the ultimate decision on whether Jackson or his teammates will face charges. A spokesman for the office declined to comment Friday.
Jackson's actions appear to be on safe legal ground, said Indianapolis defense attorney Jack Crawford.
Everyone, Crawford said, has a right to use deadly force to protect himself or another person from harm.
"The question is, did he reasonably believe he or others were still in danger?" Crawford said. "It can't be an act of revenge or retaliation. It has to be to protect himself."
The incident began with an exchange of words inside the club and spilled into the parking lot as the Pacers tried to leave.
One man slugged Jackson in the jaw, bloodying his mouth. The other men got into a blue Oldsmobile, and the car struck Jackson.
"We're not sure if he just went over the hood or he went over the whole car," Mount said.
Jackson suffered bruises and, after the incident, he went to the hospital, where he had stitches to close cuts on his mouth. He was not seriously hurt but rested during the team's afternoon practice.
Jackson told officers he fired all five shots into the air, an account police are still checking out. Officers seized his handgun and guns found in the cars of Tinsley and Daniels. Police said all have valid permits.
Part of the incident was captured on Club Rio's security camera, Mount said. The grainy video shows Jackson firing one shot in the air, then getting struck by the car, Mount said. The other events occurred outside the camera's view.
Police also found a small amount of marijuana -- about enough to make one or two joints -- on the passenger side of Tinsley's car.
No one was arrested, Mount said, because police were unable to link the drug to any particular person.
"There were three to four individuals in that car," Mount said. "We don't have a way of determining who that belongs to."
Technically, experts say, officers could have arrested Tinsley and anyone else riding in his car for possession of marijuana. That happens often in cases where police capture cars loaded with pounds of illegal drugs.
But in cases where police find one or two joints, experts say, police and prosecutors typically feel the misdemeanor charge is not worth the expense of trying to prove the case in court.
Despite the intense public interest, Mount said IPD officers are handling the investigation as they would any other case.
"We've got to treat them like everybody else," Mount said. "The first time you don't, your credibility is going to be questioned not only by them, but by everybody."
The four players involved and the team declined to comment on the incident Friday.
In a Sept. 13 interview posted on Pacers.com, Jackson said he has a positive attitude and wants to be a role model for his teammates.
"More than us playing hard and being young guys with a lot of energy, we've got to be smart," Jackson said. "We've got to make smart decisions on the court and off the court. We've got to be smarter as far as leading the young guys and watching what we do."


Call Star reporter Vic Ryckaert at (317) 444-2761.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061007/SPORTS04/610070504


bob kravitz
Latest P.R. nightmare breaks faith with fans

When the Indiana Pacers came up with their new promotional slogan, "It's up to us,'' it was supposed to be a promise, not a threat.

It took exactly three days of training camp before the new-and-presumably-improved Pacers broke their social contract with the city. Three stinking days before Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Marquis Daniels and Jimmie "Snap" Hunter gave us the first installment of "Bentleys, Babes, Bullets and Blunts.''
It usually takes the Portland Trail Blazers at least two regular-season games before that kind of nonsense commences.
"Let this one go,'' prodigal Pacer Al Harrington said after Friday's short-handed practice. "This is a new team, a new attitude. We're going to bring excitement on the basketball court and wins. Just stick with us. It's early. The season hasn't even started yet. This is just an unfortunate incident.''
Sorry, Al.
Indiana isn't letting this one go.
I've checked the e-mail. I've checked the message boards. I've listened to the radio shows. I've taken the pulse of the Pacer Nation. And I've got news.
They're ticked.
More ticked than they were after The Brawl.
More ticked than I've ever seen or heard them.
At least after The Brawl, there was the sense of us versus them. Everything was polarized. Artest versus Ben Wallace. The Pacers against David Stern. At some level, the Pacers were viewed as victims. And as the season wore on and the Pacers made a playoff run with Reggie Miller and a bunch of scrubs leading the way, they became a lovable, embraceable bunch.
Then came last year, which started with Ron-Ron's trade request and ended with a locker room filled with players who could barely stand to look at one another.
The front office promised full-scale changes, and in general, they delivered, though the changes were somewhat more cosmetic than some of us would have preferred. They got rid of two of the more professional veterans -- Austin Croshere and Anthony Johnson, although management would take issue with me on the professionalism of the latter -- and kept the backcourt tandem of Jackson and Tinsley.
"It's up to us,'' the Pacers promised.
Up to us to change the perception of the team. Up to us to bring back the fans. Up to us to make the city love us again.
Now it's polarized again.
The city against the Pacers.
Again.
Unless this team wins and wins early, the Pacers are going to be a very hard sell. That might not be terribly fair to Jermaine O'Neal, who's done all the right things this summer, and Harrington and so many other Pacers, but Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird and Rick Carlisle were the ones who chose to hold on to Tinsley and Jackson, and now they're the ones who have to be held accountable for whatever trouble comes their way.
Look, the Pacer Four did nothing illegal Thursday night, at least nothing with which they're being charged. There's nothing illegal about frequenting a gentlemen's club. There's nothing illegal about owning a firearm if it's registered. Police didn't charge anybody for the small amount of marijuana found in Tinsley's car.
As the facts are ferreted out, it may be revealed that Jackson, in particular, was the ultimate victim in all of this, that he was attacked by these men -- one of them goes by the name "Fingers'' -- and is actually quite lucky to be alive.
What can't be denied, though, is that Jackson, Tinsley, Daniels and Hunter are guilty of famously and hopelessly bad judgment.
A strip joint at 3 a.m. in the middle of training camp? Guns? A little dope? There's a conversation starter for Sunday night's Pacers Fan Jam.
"As a franchise, we have to take responsibility for what goes on,'' Carlisle said. "Our players realize that being out that late during training camp is not the right thing. We know it. It was an error in judgment. It's going to have to change. The good news is, a potentially ominous situation was averted for a guy who is not only an important player but an important person to me and to a lot of our guys (and he) is going to be OK; and that's the good news.
"We talk to our players a lot about being responsible and they know they're very visible and they're going to be targets in many instances and we're going to keep talking to them about the hours they keep and the places they go, because they're always going to be targets of attentions and there are always going to be people trying to stir things up with them. This should go as a lesson learned. We're very fortunate that no physical injuries were involved here.''
Well, no major physical injuries, anyway.
Even if there were, though, you think anybody would learn anything, anyway?
Really, most of these guys try to do the right things and frankly, I felt bad for O'Neal and Darrell Armstrong and some of the others, trying to answer questions about this mess Friday when there really wasn't anything they could say. They had to defend their teammates, no matter what they really thought. But those four goofballs just undid an entire summer of hard work, an entire summer of promotional campaigns and earnest attempts at altering long-held perceptions.
Now the city is fed up, more than ever.
Can you blame it?
(317) 444-6643 or e-mail bob.kravitz@indystar.com.


Bob Kravitz is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star. Call him at


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061007/COLUMNISTS01/610070466/1088/SPORTS04

Lord Helmet
10-07-2006, 03:31 AM
ESPN was making fun of the Pacers?

:laugh:

ESPN doesn't really have the right to make fun of anyone, as they think Mike Vanderjagt is still employed by the Indianapolis Colts....

Unclebuck
10-07-2006, 08:42 AM
Peck, we need paragraphs

Slick Pinkham
10-07-2006, 08:47 AM
"Bentleys, Babes, Bullets and Blunts.''


a new team slogan

Unclebuck
10-07-2006, 09:01 AM
Here are some comments from Cro and AJ about the incident

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/basketball/15703357.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

MAVERICKS TRAINING CAMP

By Dwain Price
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

26 Days to the Mavericks' season opener vs. the San Antonio Spurs, 7 p.m. Nov. 2, American Airlines Center, TNT

DENTON -- The news from Indiana on Friday hit home with Mavericks players Austin Croshere and Anthony Johnson.

Four members of the Indiana Pacers -- Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Jimmie Hunter and former Mavs guard Marquis Daniels -- were involved in an altercation early Friday morning outside an Indianapolis strip club that included gunfire. The incident brought back memories of one of the ugliest brawls in sports history when the Pacers and Detroit Pistons tangled on Nov. 19, 2004 at The Palace of Auburn Hills in a fight that spilled into the stands.

In Friday's incident, Jackson reportedly was hit by a car and hit in the mouth, and shot his gun in the air in self-defense. Jackson also was suspended for 30 games after he fought with a fan in the '04 incident.

"Obviously I don't know all the details, but even though they're former teammates now you hate to see them in that situation, and I hope everything works out," said Croshere, who spent the previous nine seasons with the Pacers. "Hopefully those guys will get a fair shake with it, and people can judge them just on this single incident instead of bringing the brawl into it as well."

Johnson, who served a five-game suspension for his involvement in the '04 altercation, couldn't believe the Pacers were associated with another dark moment.

"It's definitely unfortunate for those guys to be involved in a confrontation," Johnson said. "Nothing positive is ever going to come out of that.

"For guns to be involved, it's definitely a negative situation. Fortunately, none of those guys weren't hopefully seriously injured."


__________________________________________________ _________________________


Here is a comment from Mike Brown


http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/basketball/nba/cleveland_cavaliers/15702385.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Feeling for Jackson

Indiana Pacers guard Stephen Jackson is close to both Brown and his children from when Brown and Jackson were members of the San Antonio Spurs and Pacers organizations. The Associated Press reported Jackson was punched and hit by a car outside a night club early Friday morning. Police also said he fired several gunshots.

``If he's hurt, I'm concerned about him; I love Stephen, he's a great guy,'' Brown said. ``But I don't know what happened

Hicks
10-07-2006, 09:36 AM
I can see that the mob has spoken. All I can do now is sit back, watch mob mentality claim its Nth victim, and hope the Pacers are smart enough to see this for what it really is, not what it was PERCEIVED to be. If the Pacers come away with a deep playoff run this year, I think they will survive this idiotic backlash.

able
10-07-2006, 10:00 AM
I can see that the mob has spoken. All I can do now is sit back, watch mob mentality claim its Nth victim, and hope the Pacers are smart enough to see this for what it really is, not what it was PERCEIVED to be. If the Pacers come away with a deep playoff run this year, I think they will survive this idiotic backlash.

Seldom in these harsh time was a truer word posted on this forum.

I thank you.

!Pacers-Fan!
10-07-2006, 10:34 AM
To Win back fans, Pacers gotta win the championship.

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 10:50 AM
If the Pacers come away with a deep playoff run this year, I think they will survive this idiotic backlash.

It's about character, and many of us have strong feelings that men of this type character do not have what it takes to make a deep playoff run this year.

If fact, they have what it takes to PREVENT us from doing so. They are not just unhelpful, they are counterproductive.

able
10-07-2006, 11:07 AM
It's about character, and many of us have strong feelings that men of this type character do not have what it takes to make a deep playoff run this year.

If fact, they have what it takes to PREVENT us from doing so. They are not just unhelpful, they are counterproductive.

And who are you Oh Brute, to judge the character of others ?

Bball
10-07-2006, 11:27 AM
I can see that the mob has spoken. All I can do now is sit back, watch mob mentality claim its Nth victim, and hope the Pacers are smart enough to see this for what it really is, not what it was PERCEIVED to be. If the Pacers come away with a deep playoff run this year, I think they will survive this idiotic backlash.

This is what happens when a celebrity uses up their benefit of the doubt card.

I don't know what's going to happen, and I doubt we know all that will be known (about this) in the days that follow, but 'Booze, Babes, Bullets, and Blunts" (on any night, let alone a practice night especially) wasn't putting themselves into a situation where they'd have much hope of getting the benefit of the doubt anyway. Let alone these Indiana Pacers (by that I mean a team searching for a new identity and clean slate with fans). And it doesn't help that public enemies 1A and 1B were involved.

-Bball

D-BONE
10-07-2006, 11:29 AM
And who are you Oh Brute, to judge the character of others ?

So true. So true. Judge not lest ye be judged.

grace
10-07-2006, 11:35 AM
Hopefully those guys will get a fair shake with it, and people can judge them just on this single incident instead of bringing the brawl into it as well.

A fair shake around here? Are you nuts?

I for one have never liked Stephen, but even I feel bad about how this has all been spun so ridiculously out of control.

Should he have been out at 3 in the morning anywhere during training camp? Probably not.

Have I been out late at night when I had to work the next day? Yes. (Hard to believe I know.)

Do I carry a gun? No, but if I did and someone had just run me over with a car I'd probably shoot it off too.

Hicks
10-07-2006, 11:54 AM
This is what happens when a celebrity uses up their benefit of the doubt card.

I don't know what's going to happen, and I doubt we know all that will be known (about this) in the days that follow, but 'Booze, Babes, Bullets, and Blunts" (on any night, let alone a practice night especially) wasn't putting themselves into a situation where they'd have much hope of getting the benefit of the doubt anyway. Let alone these Indiana Pacers (by that I mean a team searching for a new identity and clean slate with fans). And it doesn't help that public enemies 1A and 1B were involved.

-Bball

They don't need benefit of the doubt. They just need reading comprehension.

sweabs
10-07-2006, 12:02 PM
As has been mentioned, it is unfortunate how the media has chosen to portray this incident (particularly ESPN...or up here it is called TSN).

Every single one of my friends, based on how TSN reported the event, came away thinking that Jackson was hit in his car and got into some sort of fender-bender, and ended up shooting his gun in retaliation. We were watching baseball and heard the report together and they were right in how they perceived the story. That is exactly how it was made out to be. Now I have the joy of explaining the true story to every single person who bothers me.

able
10-07-2006, 12:08 PM
A fair shake around here? Are you nuts?

I for one have never liked Stephen, but even I feel bad about how this has all been spun so ridiculously out of control.

Should he have been out at 3 in the morning anywhere during training camp? Probably not.

Have I been out late at night when I had to work the next day? Yes. (Hard to believe I know.)

Do I carry a gun? No, but if I did and someone had just run me over with a car I'd probably shoot it off too.

Late night ? for someone who has to be at work at 3.30 PM ????
It is equivalent to going home after a night out during a workday for someone starting at 9 AM of 8.30 PM

Surely most of you go home later then that.

People tend to ignore this, but Friday's training was scheduled to start at 3.30 PM

SycamoreKen
10-07-2006, 12:09 PM
It's about character, and many of us have strong feelings that men of this type character do not have what it takes to make a deep playoff run this year.

If fact, they have what it takes to PREVENT us from doing so. They are not just unhelpful, they are counterproductive.


And who are you Oh Brute, to judge the character of others ?

Heck, leave character out and just think about common sense and decision making. If they can't figure out that going out with weed in the car or visiting an establishment where the need to carry guns to protect ones self might need to be taken into account isn't the best idea in the current environment, then how can they be depended on to make good decisions later on the job?

ABADays
10-07-2006, 12:45 PM
OK - I'm just going to go stand in the corner. But I agree 100% with Kravitz on this - 100%! I have been around the Pacers every year of their existence and there has not even been a cumulative collection of incidents through 40 years that could compare to the last 3.

And able, I'm sorry - as fans were will pass judgement on a players actions. Jackson to the Pacers is to me nearly equal to what Terrell Owens is to every team he has played on. Drama follows his every move.

Having said that, I guess I should turn in my PD membership card :( .

aceace
10-07-2006, 01:19 PM
"Bentleys, Babes, Bullets and Blunts.''


a new team slogansad but true

Trader Joe
10-07-2006, 02:55 PM
I'm with Hicks 100%. I can't believe this I really can't. This makes me sick to see our city judge these men because they play basketball. Everything I have read paints them as the victims, really disappointing to see a fan base that just looks for every reason to throw certain players on this team under the bus. We ride together. Just as much as it is up to this team to win us back, it is up to us as fans to actually look and read into a situation rather than call for their heads based on passed actions. Jack is lucky to be alive and instead of supporting him some people are here to try to get rid of him? I am more ashamed to call myself a Pacers fan today because of these people than because of Stephen Jackson. These people this vast majority of the lynch mob to me are not true die hard Pacers fans, they are swing with the wind fair weather fans who have now piped off because they have had an avenue to do so. I am behind Jack, Tins, QUis, and Snap(for as long as he is with us) 100% I will cheer for them now even more, because I know there will be thousands more who won't. I am saddened for Jack that he has now become such an enigma that even when he gets run down by a car, he is still the one at fault. Sad, sad days for me to be part of such a fickle fan base.

ABADays
10-07-2006, 03:08 PM
are not true die hard Pacers fans,

Excuse me! I have 40 years invested in this team, watching, listening, attending, buying. Don't give me that BS about being "a true fan". Come back to me when you have as much invested in this franchise as me.

twscholl
10-07-2006, 03:13 PM
I can see that the mob has spoken. All I can do now is sit back, watch mob mentality claim its Nth victim, and hope the Pacers are smart enough to see this for what it really is, not what it was PERCEIVED to be. If the Pacers come away with a deep playoff run this year, I think they will survive this idiotic backlash.

I believe this is a bit more than mob mentality. I must respectfully disagree with Hicks here. Whether the Pacers run deep into the playoffs this year or not, the perception of the team is deserved. I'm not claiming that players must be roll models or that they must be held to a greater standard. However, it is incumbant upon them to "do no damage". The "It's up to us" advertising was a good PR move for this team and, I think, would have made a difference. The fact that the Pacers pulled this advertising speaks volumes.

Should the Bullets and Blunts crew be disciplined or suspended? Nah. Should they be held accountable for the further damage (real or perceived) they caused to this team? Absolutely.

My $.02

TWS

Trader Joe
10-07-2006, 03:13 PM
Excuse me! I have 40 years invested in this team, watching, listening, attending, buying. Don't give me that BS about being "a true fan". Come back to me when you have as much invested in this franchise as me.

So you honestly think its ok to try to crucify a man publicly who was run over by a car and who all the reports from the POLICE claim as a victim? If thats the case, and you see yourself as a true Pacer fan, then you have a deep dark hatred for Stephen Jackson. The man was not at fault here, at all.

twscholl
10-07-2006, 03:19 PM
So you honestly think its ok to try to crucify a man publicly who was run over by a car and who all the reports from the POLICE claim as a victim? If thats the case, and you see yourself as a true Pacer fan, then you have a deep dark hatred for Stephen Jackson. The man was not at fault here, at all.

Indy, whether he was a victim or not, he put himself in a situation that made any claim of victimhood questionable. As Rick said, he exercised bad judgement. Does that mean he should be run over? Of course not. But he also cannot expect a pass for creating the environment for this situation.

As for the earlier charge of not being a fan, I only speak for myself saying that this is just "one more thing." It would be nice for this team to be able to turn the corner. As a fan, I will still watch the games and root the team on. But my expectations are certainly lower knowing that mentally, this team will struggle to show real leadership and toughness.

TWS

ABADays
10-07-2006, 03:20 PM
So you honestly think its ok to try to crucify a man publicly who was run over by a car and who all the reports from the POLICE claim as a victim? If thats the case, and you see yourself as a true Pacer fan, then you have a deep dark hatred for Stephen Jackson. The man was not at fault here, at all.

No actually I can ride with him on that. What I can't ride with is his part in the brawl, his cursing at the coach, his jaw-jacking at the officials, his attitude when he is taken out, his need to carry heat into an alcohol establishment, his leadership in taking two new guys to a place that puts them in a position to be potential targets. That's all. I hope Jack has a full and properous career - somewhere else.

Trader Joe
10-07-2006, 03:26 PM
No actually I can ride with him on that. What I can't ride with is his part in the brawl, his cursing at the coach, his jaw-jacking at the officials, his attitude when he is taken out, his need to carry heat into an alcohol establishment, his leadership in taking two new guys to a place that puts them in a position to be potential targets. That's all. I hope Jack has a full and properous career - somewhere else.

Fair enough I guess. To me though this is not that big of a deal. Thank God Jack is ok, I hope the people that fled the scene are caught and prosecuted and then we move on. Honestly outside of the weed its just not that big of a deal. Being out at 3am when you don't have to be to practice 3:30 the next afternoon is not that big of a deal. Did Jack maybe pick the wrong club to frequent? Surely. Should he be traded because of it? Not if I had any say in it.

BlueNGold
10-07-2006, 03:27 PM
Indy, whether he was a victim or not, he put himself in a situation that made any claim of victimhood questionable. As Rick said, he exercised bad judgement. Does that mean he should be run over? Of course not. But he also cannot expect a pass for creating the environment for this situation.

As for the earlier charge of not being a fan, I only speak for myself saying that this is just "one more thing." It would be nice for this team to be able to turn the corner. As a fan, I will still watch the games and root the team on. But my expectations are certainly lower knowing that mentally, this team will struggle to show real leadership and toughness.

TWS

I like this post. You walk down a dark alley in a dangerous area of town, you should expect to find trouble. That's the real world. The fact it is a legal right is irrelevant and should not even enter the conversation. You are still foolish if you do it.

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 04:50 PM
So true. So true. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Guys, that's pretty much the main thing we do on this board: make judgments.

Strong opinion = judgment

Articulating the way you see reality = judgment

Thinking people who make judgments are wrong = judgment

Not "liking" a certain player = judgment (try substituting Jax here with Saras or Croshere or Rick Carlisle or David Stern or George Bush and some of you Jax supporters will better relate to the idea of making judgments.)

Do I think Stephen Jackson or Tinsley should rot in Hell forever for their actions? No. I don't judge them that way.

Do I think God doesn't love them as much, or that he loves me more, because of their actions? No.

Do I think I am a better person than Jax? No (although it's a temptation for anyone to feel this way about others--see "judge not lest ye be judged" and "forgive us our sins and we forgive those who sin against us" and "lead us not into temptation."

Do I think Jax and Tins (particularly Jax) have demonstrated over time that they don't yet have the intention of changing their behavior (i.e. "character")? Yes.

Can I prove it? No.

You can't prove character (who can see the heart?), you can only observe trends.

Hicks and the other admins observe our trends and, sometimes, make the "judgment" that a line should be censored or a certain poster banned.

They usually don't do this on the first or second offense (like many of us don't think Marquis should be punished like Jax and Tins) because a trend hasn't developed yet to discern a person's character. When it does, the admins pull the trigger.

It is my opinion that TPTB should be able to observe the trends by now (character) and start pulling some triggers.

To be human is to make decision based on "judgments." To be diabolical is to hate someone and want them condemned. I can think you can do the former without the latter, although it is never easy.

able
10-07-2006, 05:21 PM
What if I told you it was on instignation of Daniels they were there ?

No, not a far fetched idea, whispers in the background have it that they were at a concert after-party which was held in that establishment and celebrating the birthday of quis' brother's best friend

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 05:56 PM
What if I told you it was on instignation of Daniels they were there ?


Well, that would make a difference.

There would still be some issues, and I’ll get to that in a minute.

But first let me say that I like this exchange. You’re giving me new information (possibly) and challenging me to view the raw facts (trends, as it were) from your perspective.

Everyone has a unique perspective (just like a snowflake, La La La ;)

Or, to say it like some theologians, everyone has their own unique part of the Divine essence--their divine spark.

So, you can help me, and I can help you in discerning the trends and better coming up with how to make a decision on someone. Because, really, I don’t think you or anyone else is saying that we should never make a judgment--never say it’s time to tell a person to move on. Even us Artest fanatics finally agreed the man had to go. I think what people say when they cite “judge not lest ye be judged” is that they think people should wait a little longer, give a person another chance, show a little more mercy and hope for the best.

Everybody has their breaking point. Some had it much earlier than I did for Ron Ron. I seem to have it a lot earlier than others for Jax.

But your insights and those of others could well indeed possibly cause me to change my mind (my “judgment”) that Jax’s past actions clearly inform a future of more pain and suffering for him, the team, and the fans.

Actually, another poster quoted “judge not lest ye be judged,” not you. And my response is that this knee jerk phrase sounds good and works initially, but isn’t operative in terms of making decisions, but rather regarding whether you have concern about someone in your heart or hate them.

You (Able) actually said, “Who are you?” to make a judgment. Which, actually, is a much better argument. The person making the judgment may not have much credibility. That is for you and others to decide. Sometimes they don’t.

Back on point: if your scenario of Marquis initiating the visit to a dumb place is correct, than I would be a little less upset but still concerned. Why? Birds of a feather flock together. Why wasn’t JO there? Why wasn’t Foster or Danny there? Probably because they don’t hang out with the kind of people who hold parties at questionable establishments, like Marquis brothers’ friend.

So, while it would take some of the onus off Jack, it would still reinforce the trend that action after action shows this guy to be the “kind of person” (character) who causes trouble for the team.

But I could be persuaded differently. ;)

able
10-07-2006, 06:04 PM
Let's stick with this thought, because the info is from a very good source, so the likelyhood is very high that it is true.

Now add some more information; read my thread that I posted 5 minutes ago

RON ARTEST
10-07-2006, 06:33 PM
I know you guys might not care but here is something from the Sac Bee- Gun-free -- Artest said he tried to reach his pal and former Indiana Pacers teammate Stephen Jackson by cell phone after learning that Jackson fired shots into the air with a handgun in apparent self-defense outside a nightclub early Friday.

"I hope he's OK," said Artest, who added that athletes tend to be celebrity targets. "I don't want to have to carry a gun. I don't want to have one. I'd rather go through my whole life without one."

BlueNGold
10-07-2006, 07:30 PM
I know you guys might not care but here is something from the Sac Bee- Gun-free -- Artest said he tried to reach his pal and former Indiana Pacers teammate Stephen Jackson by cell phone after learning that Jackson fired shots into the air with a handgun in apparent self-defense outside a nightclub early Friday.

"I hope he's OK," said Artest, who added that athletes tend to be celebrity targets. "I don't want to have to carry a gun. I don't want to have one. I'd rather go through my whole life without one."

That is definitely true. If I were a professional athlete making X million a year, I would have to carry a gun. It's too bad, but it is just not safe out there for public figures. There is a reason body guards exist....and who wants one around all the time.

At the same time, he is not your average Joe. Part of the price of being a public figure and earning huge dollars is that you don't go to a sleazy joint at 3am with drugs and guns and risk everything. In the real world, this is asking for trouble. He should also realize that many Pacer fans, employees and associates will be impacted negatively by his actions.

ajbry
10-07-2006, 07:41 PM
That is definitely true. If I were a professional athlete making X million a year, I would have to carry a gun. It's too bad, but it is just not safe out there for public figures. There is a reason body guards exist....and who wants one around all the time.

At the same time, he is not your average Joe. Part of the price of being a public figure and earning huge dollars is that you don't go to a sleazy joint at 3am with drugs and guns and risk everything. In the real world, this is asking for trouble. He should also realize that many Pacer fans, employees and associates will be impacted negatively by his actions.

Did you read able's thread? Or any previous replies in other threads?

All Jack detractors constantly avoid the facts. It's almost comical.

ABADays
10-07-2006, 07:54 PM
Did you read able's thread? Or any previous replies in other threads?

All Jack detractors constantly avoid the facts. It's almost comical.

We all know the facts. We also know his history with the Pacers - which are also facts.

grace
10-07-2006, 08:11 PM
I'm with Hicks 100%. I can't believe this I really can't. This makes me sick to see our city judge these men because they play basketball.


I've got a news flash for you: everyone judges everyone else. Some people just keep their opinions to themselves.

grace
10-07-2006, 08:15 PM
"I hope he's OK," said Artest, who added that athletes tend to be celebrity targets. "I don't want to have to carry a gun. I don't want to have one. I'd rather go through my whole life without one."

They left out the part where he said "Because as we all know I'm a certifiable nut case and if anyone got in my face I'd take out my gun and blow his :censored: face off."

Unclebuck
10-07-2006, 08:16 PM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart


Shooting seems justified, police say

Evidence so far appears to paint Jackson, teammates as victims in club incident

By Vic Ryckaert
vic.ryckaert@indystar.com
October 7, 2006


Indiana Pacers forward Stephen Jackson appeared to be justified when he fired five gunshots outside a Westside strip club early Friday, police said.

"Right now, from all the evidence we've gathered," said Sgt. Matthew Mount, an Indianapolis Police Department spokesman, it looks like Jackson and three teammates "were the victims in this case."

Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Marquis Daniels and Jimmie "Snap" Hunter were involved in the shooting incident Friday morning at Club Rio, 5054 W. 38th St.

Jackson fired five shots from a 9 mm handgun after a man punched him in the face and tried to run him over with a car outside the club at 3 a.m., Mount said.

Marion County prosecutors will evaluate the evidence and make the ultimate decision on whether Jackson or his teammates will face charges. A spokesman for the office declined to comment Friday.

Jackson's actions appear to be on safe legal ground, said Indianapolis defense attorney Jack Crawford.

Everyone, Crawford said, has a right to use deadly force to protect himself or another person from harm.

"The question is, did he reasonably believe he or others were still in danger?" Crawford said. "It can't be an act of revenge or retaliation. It has to be to protect himself."

The incident began with an exchange of words inside the club and spilled into the parking lot as the Pacers tried to leave.

One man slugged Jackson in the jaw, bloodying his mouth. The other men got into a blue Oldsmobile, and the car struck Jackson.

"We're not sure if he just went over the hood or he went over the whole car," Mount said.

Jackson suffered bruises and, after the incident, he went to the hospital, where he had stitches to close cuts on his mouth. He was not seriously hurt but rested during the team's afternoon practice.

Jackson told officers he fired all five shots into the air, an account police are still checking out. Officers seized his handgun and guns found in the cars of Tinsley and Daniels. Police said all have valid permits.

Part of the incident was captured on Club Rio's security camera, Mount said. The grainy video shows Jackson firing one shot in the air, then getting struck by the car, Mount said. The other events occurred outside the camera's view.

Police also found a small amount of marijuana -- about enough to make one or two joints -- on the passenger side of Tinsley's car.

No one was arrested, Mount said, because police were unable to link the drug to any particular person.

"There were three to four individuals in that car," Mount said. "We don't have a way of determining who that belongs to."

Technically, experts say, officers could have arrested Tinsley and anyone else riding in his car for possession of marijuana. That happens often in cases where police capture cars loaded with pounds of illegal drugs.

But in cases where police find one or two joints, experts say, police and prosecutors typically feel the misdemeanor charge is not worth the expense of trying to prove the case in court.

Despite the intense public interest, Mount said IPD officers are handling the investigation as they would any other case.

"We've got to treat them like everybody else," Mount said. "The first time you don't, your credibility is going to be questioned not only by them, but by everybody."

The four players involved and the team declined to comment on the incident Friday.

In a Sept. 13 interview posted on Pacers.com, Jackson said he has a positive attitude and wants to be a role model for his teammates.

"More than us playing hard and being young guys with a lot of energy, we've got to be smart," Jackson said. "We've got to make smart decisions on the court and off the court. We've got to be smarter as far as leading the young guys and watching what we do."

imawhat
10-07-2006, 08:23 PM
Stephen is firing a gun outside of a strip club at 3 am and I'm the one with the idiotic backlash.

There's not a lot that can be said that can justify his response, and really nothing that can justify the situation. Private party, whatever. It still happened. And the situation (which I'm referring to) that matters, apart from the truth, is public perception and damage to the organization's reputation.


To put yourself in that position is the damage. Even if this fool started all of it and was kicked out of the club, then why the hell is Stephen following him outside? Even after all the factors, there's still a way to avoid shooting a gun. Either way, the public backlash from a bad situation, warranted or not, is something you have to think about before you even bring a freaking gun out into public.

By the way, shooting a gun into the air isn't exactly safe. People have been killed in that situation when the bullets came back down. That's a huge stretch on my part, but it has happened.

For the record, I'm a huge Stephen Jackson fan; especially as a person. I really hope this can get erased from memory, but it probably won't.

Hoop
10-07-2006, 08:48 PM
I can see that the mob has spoken. All I can do now is sit back, watch mob mentality claim its Nth victim, and hope the Pacers are smart enough to see this for what it really is, not what it was PERCEIVED to be. If the Pacers come away with a deep playoff run this year, I think they will survive this idiotic backlash.Good Post!

vapacersfan
10-08-2006, 12:18 AM
I've got a news flash for you: everyone judges everyone else. Some people just keep their opinions to themselves.


I would say QFT, but since I am tired of seeing that phrase I will say "Truer words have not been spoken"

Stryder
10-08-2006, 02:06 AM
They could have at least chose a better club than Rio. Geeze.

PacerFan31
10-08-2006, 02:26 AM
They could have at least chose a better club than Rio. Geeze.

haha, that was my first thought.

As soon as I heard it I thought, A. I hope that everyone is okay, and then B. WTF! why the Rio lol.

DisplacedKnick
10-08-2006, 09:58 AM
What if I told you it was on instignation of Daniels they were there ?

No, not a far fetched idea, whispers in the background have it that they were at a concert after-party which was held in that establishment and celebrating the birthday of quis' brother's best friend

Am I misunderstanding you?

Did you say they were holding a concert there? Or did that mean something else?

MagicRat
10-08-2006, 10:08 AM
Am I misunderstanding you?

Did you say they were holding a concert there? Or did that mean something else?

I think he's saying they started here:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061006/ENTERTAINMENT04/610060522/1081/ENTERTAINMENT04

Then went to the club.......

DisplacedKnick
10-08-2006, 10:13 AM
I think he's saying they started here:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061006/ENTERTAINMENT04/610060522/1081/ENTERTAINMENT04

Then went to the club.......

LOL - that would be different - go from a classical concert to where you can get covered with glitter and smell like cheap stripper perfume.

able
10-08-2006, 11:43 AM
Am I misunderstanding you?

Did you say they were holding a concert there? Or did that mean something else?

Apparently they went to a "too short" concert and that afterparty was in the club rio.

DisplacedKnick
10-08-2006, 12:41 PM
Apparently they went to a "too short" concert and that afterparty was in the club rio.

That makes more sense. Not sure who too short is but you'd have a hard time fitting 250 people in Rio.

imawhat
10-08-2006, 05:12 PM
For the record, 'Fingers' and 'Dino' are rappers.