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View Full Version : Should the Pacers organization fine and or suspend the 4 players involved.



Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 05:00 PM
OK, instead of rehashing the same tired comments in the other long thread, I thought we should look ahead. Assuming we pretty much know everything there is to know about this incident, what should the Pacers organization do to the 4 offending individuals.

Here is what I would do. I'm sure everyone will agree with this.

1) Cut Snap Hunter. He is fighting for a roster spot and he should know better than to hang around unsavory people like that. (i'm only half joking, I don't expect him to make the team anyway, so the pacers can do anything they want with him)

2) Marquis Daniels - I would suspend him without pay for 1 game. I'm going light on him because he's new

3) Tinsley - Suspend him without pay for 3 games. The weed was in his car, and even though we don't know if it is his it doesn't matter.

4) Jackson - Suspend him for 5 games without pay.

Why suspend them at all, because they embarrassed the franchise.

Oh brother, we now have team coverage on Channel 13.

Jackson was not at practice today. He was at home.

Well I wanted more training camp coverage and now we got it.

Al Harrington has the look of "I wished I were still in Atlanta"

Edit: oh no, now they are showing the brawl from the Palace.

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 05:02 PM
I wouldn't say suspend, just fine them the games worth of Pay, the last thing we need to do is encourage Tinsley to sit on the bench.

Although its possible Tinsley could get suspended by the league for the pot right?

Maybe suspend Jax and Daniels both one game, but not for anything they did other than the fact they were being irresponsible and going out till 3 in the morining during training camp.

Snap Hunter out of here, 17 left, 2 to go.

Isaac
10-06-2006, 05:05 PM
Maybe suspend Jax and Daniels both one game, but not for anything they did other than the fact they were being irresponsible and going out till 3 in the morining during training camp.

If the team doesn't have a curfew then its unfair to do that.

!Pacers-Fan!
10-06-2006, 05:06 PM
lol, u think after suspension everything will be just fine?

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 05:07 PM
lol, u think after suspension everything will be just fine?

Yes that is exactly what I think

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 05:07 PM
If the team doesn't have a curfew then its unfair to do that.

If this team doesn't have a curfew, then they need to make one.

Anthem
10-06-2006, 05:09 PM
Ok, I'm fine with that.

But the Pacers Brass has egg on their face. They have to move those guys now, if only to salvage their pride.

Los Angeles
10-06-2006, 05:10 PM
Too late for this.

Snap = Gone. What chance he had at an NBA career may be gone as well.

Marquis = Gets a pass.

Tinsley = Publicly gets a pass, but gone in a couple of months.

Jackson = excuses to send him packing a-la Artest 2006 are currently being vetted.

Pacers = totally F'ed.

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 05:11 PM
Ok, I'm fine with that.

But the Pacers Brass has egg on their face. They have to move those guys now, if only to salvage their pride.

I agree they need to trade Jax and JT, but I've said that all summer. I don't think they should trade Daniels though.

I was watching Channel 8 news a minute ago and they said the league will do anything to the 4 players because they did not break any NBA rules. So it is up to the pacers.

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 05:12 PM
Why the Hell does Daniels get a pass. From my experience its the new guy that is most likely to get the axe when he screws up.

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 05:14 PM
I really don't see how this can be enough to change you viewpoint on whether to trade JT and SJ, if it is, I am betting you are just emotional and not really looking at it.

I understand if this is just more fuel to your desire to trade them, but if this is what put you over the top, I am seeing some serious overreaction.

Isaac
10-06-2006, 05:14 PM
I'm going to say that nothing will publicly happen to these guys. Not a fine, not a suspension, not even extra laps in practice.

I may be naive and stupid, but I'm ok with that.

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 05:15 PM
Why the Hell does Daniels get a pass. From my experience its the new guy that is most likely to get the axe when he screws up.

So the first day on the job if you screw up they fire you. Not at any place I've worked at. Usually you get a pass for a few days because they figure you just don't know what you are doing yet

Bball
10-06-2006, 05:16 PM
If I am the Pacers I tell the 4 to be EXTREMELY on their best behavior for the next few days (read: extremely on a short leash) and let some more info filter in and then make a decision in a few days once I've had time to hear as much of the story as possible from all sides. This might include using/hiring my own investigators.

I do what I can to minimize PR damage and spin things, or hush them, for the time being until the spotlight dims.

And then I do whatever is best for the Pacer organization long term (and fans). Not short term.

-Bball

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 05:17 PM
So the first day on the job if you screw up they fire you. Not at any place I've worked at. Usually you get a pass for a few days because they figure you just don't know what you are doing yet


Well yeah if that screw involves something that you had no experience with at your previous job. But if you screw up something simple, they'll fire you.

And lets face it, this is something simple.

Hicks
10-06-2006, 05:19 PM
I don't see any suspensions. I think this is an unfortunate incident (God that sounds like P.R.), but in the end not much will come of it unless there are important details we haven't been told about yet. I think this should blow over.

BlueNGold
10-06-2006, 05:23 PM
The Simons need to consider getting new management.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 05:29 PM
The Simons need to consider getting new management.

Bingo. The buck doesn't seem to stop anywhere.

Moses
10-06-2006, 05:33 PM
Suspend them for what? Any suspension the Pacers dish out at these players would almost be surely revoked by the Players Committee. They were defending themselves.

Sure they put themselves in a bad situation..but as far as I'm concerned, bad judgement on what you do in your spare time..unless it involves doing illegal activites doesn't warrant a suspension. What grounds would we have for suspending them without pay?

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 05:40 PM
If they don't have a curfew, I don't know if there is any grounds for suspending them.

That doesn't mean that you can't leave them on the end of the bench, either in uniform or in street clothes, though. And sometimes, that's a better way to get to these guys than even their wallets.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 05:43 PM
No-nonsense discipline+nonsense=something.



The amount of $ this is going to cost the franchise for damage control....wow, I don't know. Maybe more than the players are worth, combined. And the players have made the organization look really, really stupid. That should cause some kind of action by itself.

Trader Joe
10-06-2006, 05:48 PM
Jack and Tins one game a piece no pay, they can play, just no pay. Quis a stern talking to and unfortunately for Snap this will probably earn him his walking papers. An unfortunate situation for sure.

DisplacedKnick
10-06-2006, 05:49 PM
I wouldn't suspend them.

I'd get rid of Jackson at all costs - I don't care if you get a box of Cracker Jack sans toy prize for him - enough is enough.

This is Tinsley's first offense but he still should know better. Rick and Bird need to have a conversation.

Daniels and Snap (who was never making the team anyway) get a pass for being newcomers though they still need to have a conversation.

But with Jackson, enough is enough. There are strip clubs in Indy for celebs - places where they'll valet park your car, security is TIGHT, they bring you cute little drinks that cost $15, etc. People don't blow famous people crap there.

Just poor judgment - and he's shown a more than disturbing pattern of that. He needs to be gone by Oct 31 even if Indy buys him out.

!Pacers-Fan!
10-06-2006, 05:51 PM
I don't see any suspensions. I think this is an unfortunate incident (God that sounds like P.R.), but in the end not much will come of it unless there are important details we haven't been told about yet. I think this should blow over.

Enuff Said.

Isaac
10-06-2006, 05:51 PM
Jack and Tins one game a piece no pay, they can play, just no pay. Quis a stern talking to and unfortunately for Snap this will probably earn him his walking papers. An unfortunate situation for sure.

:lol2: That's the worst idea yet. You have to be kidding.

Trader Joe
10-06-2006, 05:57 PM
:lol2: That's the worst idea yet. You have to be kidding.

Meh, not really. I don't think this is that big of a deal to begin with. I mean if someone ran you over with a car would you just stand there? Doubt it. Anyone who says they would either needs to grow a pair or is a holier than thou liar.

Big Smooth
10-06-2006, 05:59 PM
I don't see what you'd suspend these guys for. Going to a strip club? Defending themselves? Now I'm not saying they exercised good judgment at all, don't get me wrong. Like DK said, there are much higher class clubs with tighter security and whatnot that these guys can visit if they feel the need.

Besides the Malice at the Palace, I don't recall Tins or SJax ever getting in hot water off the court. Give 'em the 5th degree behind closed doors and let 'em know they need to skate straight going forward. Guess that is my two cents.

!Pacers-Fan!
10-06-2006, 06:02 PM
I don't see what you'd suspend these guys for. Going to a strip club? Defending themselves? Now I'm not saying they exercised good judgment at all, don't get me wrong. Like DK said, there are much higher class clubs with tighter security and whatnot that these guys can visit if they feel the need.

Besides the Malice at the Palace, I don't recall Tins or SJax ever getting in hot water off the court. Give 'em the 5th degree behind closed doors and let 'em know they need to skate straight going forward. Guess that is my two cents.

Yea, Exactly.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 06:02 PM
I mean if someone ran you over with a car would you just stand there? Doubt it. Anyone who says they would either needs to grow a pair or is a holier than thou liar.


I wouldn't be in a situation where someone would want to run me over.

SycamoreKen
10-06-2006, 06:04 PM
Meh, not really. I don't think this is that big of a deal to begin with. I mean if someone ran you over with a car would you just stand there? Doubt it. Anyone who says they would either needs to grow a pair or is a holier than thou liar.

Well, since I wouldn't be where they were when they were I wouldn't have to worry about it. Not a good decision by all involved.

I have to agree that unless they broke a team rule, do we have the Don't Do Dumb Things rule yet, then they can't be suspended.

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 06:06 PM
I wouldn't be in a situation where someone would want to run me over.

Yeah because people that get ran over, know they are about to.

Trader Joe
10-06-2006, 06:06 PM
Well, since I wouldn't be where they were when they were I wouldn't have to worry about it. Not a good decision by all involved.

I have to agree that unless they broke a team rule, do we have the Don't Do Dumb Things rule yet, then they can't be suspended.

Different strokes for different folks my friends. Not everyone spends their free time in the same way.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 06:08 PM
Yeah because people that get ran over, know they are about to.


Don't be sarcastic. They were involved in an incident before anyone was in a car attempting to run someone over. Jackson wasn't some innocent bystander with a head turned the other way.

DisplacedKnick
10-06-2006, 06:13 PM
Besides the Malice at the Palace, I don't recall Tins or SJax ever getting in hot water off the court. Give 'em the 5th degree behind closed doors and let 'em know they need to skate straight going forward. Guess that is my two cents.


Do you think Jackson hasn't been given the "skate straight" speech already? With all the talk he's had the last week about leading by example and working for the team, etc., I figured he'd already gotten "the talk."

Just don't have a SI cover with him and Bird pictured together.

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 06:14 PM
Don't be sarcastic. They were involved in an incident before anyone was in a car attempting to run someone over. Jackson wasn't some innocent bystander with a head turned the other way.

They were leaving the club to avoid an incident sheesh. An incident can start anywhere, hell I have gotten into a fight outside the library here at IU.

So basically its there fault somebody decided to start some crap. And they decided to leave, which resulted in Jackson getting hit by a car.

I guess by that logic it would have been better for them not to be responsible and finish it inside.

Sheesh theres just no pleasing some people

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 06:17 PM
Do you think Jackson hasn't been given the "skate straight" speech already? With all the talk he's had the last week about leading by example and working for the team, etc., I figured he'd already gotten "the talk."

Just don't have a SI cover with him and Bird pictured together.

I think everybody on the team last year got the talk except maybe Feisty and Granger. Out of the ones we have left.

Tinsley, Jack, and JO all either pouted or complained every other game about something.

Runi, he was an *** to his teammates and deserved a talk

Harrison, started breaking stuff he got a talk for sure.

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 06:22 PM
Suspend them for what? Any suspension the Pacers dish out at these players would almost be surely revoked by the Players Committee. They were defending themselves.

Sure they put themselves in a bad situation..but as far as I'm concerned, bad judgement on what you do in your spare time..unless it involves doing illegal activites doesn't warrant a suspension. What grounds would we have for suspending them without pay?



Suspend them for conduct detrimental to the franchise's image, and it might help the frnachise save face a little

DisplacedKnick
10-06-2006, 06:23 PM
Well, Pacers Brass is almost in a "must respond" situation right now. IMO Jackson has to go and they should try to send Tinsley though it may not be as important.

Indy residents have never really embraced this team and I've heard plenty of comments about folks not liking their attitude last season and how something needs to change.

Jackson's already hated here - the Pacers HAVE to trade him or they'll be playing in front of 12,000 fans all season. I could go into a lot of detail on this but you'll either agree with me or you won't. All I can say is I've heard it a lot - you're losing the city.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 06:23 PM
They were leaving the club to avoid an incident sheesh. An incident can start anywhere, hell I have gotten into a fight outside the library here at IU.

So basically its there fault somebody decided to start some crap. And they decided to leave, which resulted in Jackson getting hit by a car.

It's their fault they were in that situation to begin with, and several lapses of judgement occurred in order for it to happen.


I guess by that logic it would have been better for them not to be responsible and finish it inside.

Sheesh theres just no pleasing some people


By logic, they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Logic would also dictate that you don't get involved in fist fights. Then it would say not to get into fist fights at 3 AM at a freaking strip club. Then it would say not to pull out a gun unless your life is being threatened. If Jackson had enough time to go to his car and get a gun, he had enough time to get in his car and drive the ******* away.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 06:23 PM
No, you dont get suspended for getting run over by a car.

Destined4Greatness
10-06-2006, 06:26 PM
It's their fault they were in that situation to begin with, and several lapses of judgement occurred in order for it to happen.



How so, i didn't realize that it was a rule of the universe that NBA players get ****ed with at Strip Clubs. Hell NBA players should only leave their homes for Practice and Games, thus no chance of this occuring.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 06:27 PM
Suspend them for conduct detrimental to the franchise's image, and it might help the frnachise save face a little


Yeah, that's the only thing there could be a suspension for, unless drugs become an issue.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 06:30 PM
How so, i didn't realize that it was a rule of the universe that NBA players get ****ed with at Strip Clubs. Hell NBA players should only leave their homes for Practice and Games, thus no chance of this occuring.

That was not the point, which you will obviously not get.

Aw Heck
10-06-2006, 06:35 PM
Suspend them for conduct detrimental to the franchise's image, and it might help the frnachise save face a little
How did they know that what they were doing was conduct detrimental to the franchise's image? I can understand maybe if they have moral clauses in their contracts that specifically tell them they can't go to strip clubs on their own time. But we don't know that for sure.

It was a stupid situation for the players to be in, but they weren't looking for trouble. The strip club owner said that they behaved themselves in the club. And they did nothing wrong outside. No charges have been filed against the players.

Give them a stern warning (behind closed doors) not to put themselves in that situation again. At worst, maybe have the players give a public apology for the situation getting out of hand. But if you suspend them when they did nothing wrong, you're going to **** off the other players on the team. What players do on their own time is their business, not the franchise's, especially when nothing illegal is involved.

pacerDU
10-06-2006, 06:52 PM
I really can't believe how much some of you are over-reacting. Apart from the guns, this could happen to anybody. Yes it's come at a bad time because of incidents over the past couple years, so it may cause a slight PR hit, but that's about it.

Of course the media will blow it out of proportion to make a good story, but that doesn't mean we have to. The fact that they had guns isn't good, but unfortunately they were legally entitled to them. Blame poor gun-laws. Jackson firing his was in self-defence which is the only reason why someone would be allowed to legally carry a hand-gun. None of them have been detained, so nothing illegal has occured.

There is NOTHING wrong with going to a strip club, in your own time. Some may say it's morally wrong but that doesn't warrant punishment and is entirely based on personal opinion. Geez, every man has probably been to a strip club!

As long as you do nothing illegal and turn up for work the next day and do your job well, it's nobody else's business what you do in your spare time.

Yes you can say that they tarnished the clubs reputation, but was that of their own doing, or the result of an incident beyond their control? We don't know either way.

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 06:57 PM
Apart from the guns, this could happen to anybody.

The whole reason this is a story is because of the guns

Our players carry guns with them to the strip club. Personally, I find that more ridiculous and amusing than morally reprenhensible or socially irresponsible or anything like that.....But I doubt the average person interested in the Pacers thinks it's all that funny.

Roaming Gnome
10-06-2006, 07:00 PM
Is going to gentlemen's clubs against the law? Last time I checked, it was a viable option for late night entertainment. I guess they could have went the Dwayne Wade card and "gone to Steak and Shake"?!?

Anyway, a suspension is a lousy idea!!! Sorry UB and others, it is just a poor idea no matter how you spin it. I could easily see this type of situation happen in a BW'3 parking lot at that hour of night.... So, people essentially want these players punished for Where the situation went down and not Why the situation went down. Idiots approach celebs and act like ******** just about anywhere, especially where drinking is involved. This could have happened outside of a TGI Fridays outside of Castleton Mall. I just don't see what Jackson or any of the others did that was so wrong to warrent a suspension. I didn't know being out at 3am at a gentleman's club, owning a gun, firing it (unlawful in his situation, very much...Was he charged, nope) was enough to warrent a suspension.

There are always people that want to cause trouble with Celebs. The only poor judgement I see in the players actions were being at a public drinking establishment that doesn't normally cater to celebs.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 07:06 PM
I have a feeling Jax's bullets could've hit someone and people here would still try to excuse the incident.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 07:07 PM
There is NOTHING wrong with going to a strip club, in your own time. Some may say it's morally wrong but that doesn't warrant punishment and is entirely based on personal opinion. Geez, every man has probably been to a strip club!



Nobody is arguing that.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 07:09 PM
I really can't believe how much some of you are over-reacting.

Jackson fired a gun after he had the time to go get it, after being involved in a 'fracas', after everything he's said about making the right decisions on and off the court, and I'm the one that's over-reacting.

ABADays
10-06-2006, 07:15 PM
I don't see any suspensions. I think this is an unfortunate incident (God that sounds like P.R.), but in the end not much will come of it unless there are important details we haven't been told about yet. I think this should blow over.

Hicks - this ain't going to just blow over. A very large percentage of the Pacer fan base already hated Jackson and nearly as many had the same feelings toward Tinsley. Throw in Jackson's "introspection" he hasn't got a chance in hell here now - not ever. Now, in the midst of attempts to get rid of the "element" it appears we now have two MORE in the mix you have a very, very bad situation.

Unnecessary millions have been poured into image control and it's shot down on the first night of training camp. The front office has been left without a pot to pee in. Once again, these same characters have tied their hands. I can't imagine Bird not being beyond ballistic about this and Donnie and Rick not far behind.

If I were going to have a meeting with all of them, Herb and Mel would be right there with me. The players didn't flush THEIR money down the toilet.

You are kidding yourself if you think this will blow over. I think the attendance ramifications will be significant. And part of that will come from the fact that there probably won't be any kind of suspension.

pacerDU
10-06-2006, 07:19 PM
Nobody is arguing that.

I understand that you may not be imawhat, but there are others here saying they shouldn't have been at a club at 3am in the morning and also in the neighborhood in which they were.

pacerDU
10-06-2006, 07:24 PM
Jackson fired a gun after he had the time to go get it, after being involved in a 'fracas', after everything he's said about making the right decisions on and off the court, and I'm the one that's over-reacting.

I wasn't necessarily referring to you imawhat. This thread is about whether or not they should be fined or suspended, not whether what they did was in good character.

Love them or hate them, that's fine. Are there any grounds on which they should be suspended - no.

Roaming Gnome
10-06-2006, 07:25 PM
I understand that you may not be imawhat, but there are others here saying they shouldn't have been at a club at 3am in the morning and also in the neighborhood in which they were.

What is so wrong with that neighborhood, just because it is not Avon, Carmel, Greenwood or Castleton doesn't make it a bad neighborhood. Every neighbor hood can't be lilly...well, nevermind!

pacerDU
10-06-2006, 07:30 PM
What is so wrong with that neighborhood, just because it is not Avon, Carmel, Greenwood or Castleton doesn't make it a bad neighborhood. Every neighbor hood can't be lilly...well, nevermind!

I'm not sure if you were speaking directly to me Roaming Gnome or just referencing my quote, but if you are speaking to me, you should know that I'm agreeing with you.

OTD
10-06-2006, 07:36 PM
My humble opinion LB has all ready had them in the office, told them under no circumstances. Will these kind of things will be acceptable. And if they do then they will be moving. For one thing I don't think LB is scared of any of them. And He don't beat around the bush. It comes stright.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 07:41 PM
I understand that you may not be imawhat, but there are others here saying they shouldn't have been at a club at 3am in the morning and also in the neighborhood in which they were.


They shouldn't've been, but that doesn't mean they should/shouldn't go to strip clubs. It's the timing, location, and events that are in question...which is why I said nobody is arguing the strip-club thing.

Los Angeles
10-06-2006, 07:44 PM
What is so wrong with that neighborhood, just because it is not Avon, Carmel, Greenwood or Castleton doesn't make it a bad neighborhood. Every neighbor hood can't be lilly...well, nevermind!

:ding:

imawhat
10-06-2006, 07:45 PM
What is so wrong with that neighborhood, just because it is not Avon, Carmel, Greenwood or Castleton doesn't make it a bad neighborhood.

Nope, but crime, drugs, and prostitution make it one.


And regardless of the neighborhood, being outside of a club at 3 am isn't conducive to safety. Aside from guns and fighting, you have a group of people leaving one area where maybe 50% of the patrons are intoxicated and driving. Being outside of a strip club intensifies those factors.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 07:49 PM
:ding:

Hey,

I know you're quoting statistics, but Venice, like any other well-populated area, has very good spots and very bad spots. There are certain areas there that are still considered to be dangerous, though not comparable to Venice in the late 70s/early 80s.

lumber man
10-06-2006, 07:56 PM
i could definately see a suspenion in order for some weed. but, UncleBuck why would jack merit 5 games?

Los Angeles
10-06-2006, 08:01 PM
Hey,

I know you're quoting statistics, but Venice, like any other well-populated area, has very good spots and very bad spots. There are certain areas there that are still considered to be dangerous, though not comparable to Venice in the late 70s/early 80s.

I don't want to get into the Venice talk. I live here day to day. It's an absolute checkerboard of diversity. Economic, social, racial, cultural diversity. The fact that we all live together and leave each other to our own business and help each other out (like the time the three drug dealers helped me when I tripped on a sidewalk and chipped my kneecap) is the strength of the neighborhood. I'm proud to be a part of it.

I'm also in the unique position of actually growing up in the neighborhood around Lafayette Square Mall. I've been back, so I don't think my position is all that dated. As far as urban neighborhoods go, it it's hardly a blip on the radar.

This is my opinion.

imawhat
10-06-2006, 08:13 PM
I don't want to get into the Venice talk. I live here day to day. It's an absolute checkerboard of diversity. Economic, social, racial, cultural diversity. The fact that we all live together and leave each other to our own business and help each other out (like the time the three drug dealers helped me when I tripped on a sidewalk and chipped my kneecap) is the strength of the neighborhood. I'm proud to be a part of it.

I'm also in the unique position of actually growing up in the neighborhood around Lafayette Square Mall. I've been back, so I don't think my position is all that dated. As far as urban neighborhoods go, it it's hardly a blip on the radar.

This is my opinion.


I'm glad you've had good experiences in Venice, but here's the thing:

Before I moved out to L.A., I had the fortune of having the Chief of Police as one of my contacts. As a favor, my girlfriend and I were able to list all of the places we considered living, e-mailed it to him, and he gave us advice as to the safety of these areas and whether or not we should live there. And outside of one area downtown L.A., the three places that he strongly recommended us to not live near were all in Venice.

Lafayette Square area may be a blip on the map of urban neighborhoods, as Venice may be, but that doesn't exclude them from having areas where crime and violence are much more likely to occur.

When the Chief of Police is strongly advising me not to live somewhere, I listen.

Cubs231721
10-06-2006, 08:21 PM
I don't think any suspension is in order, except possibly if one can prove the marijuana (btw, I don't think I've seen this reading through the threads-in one of the interviews on video at ESPN.com, the police chief said that even if they could identify the owner, the amount was so insignificant that the worst thing that could happen was a citation).
Other then that, we have a situation with 4 men who were leaving a club. The reports said an incident happened there where Jackson got punched in the mouth-it never says that they punched back. The fight must have ended there, because the other group retreated to their car. Then they run over Jackson, and the shots were fired. Since the police have determined right now that the shots were self-defense, there won't be a suspension for that either.

Look-I'm not a person who likes anything that these players did. I would never go to a club like that, I don't own or plan to own a gun, I don't drink, and I try to never get into a fight. However, there is simply nothing to suspend the players for in this case. Do I wish they had done it? Definitely not-that doesn't mean it deserves a suspension though.

As the police said today "If it was an act of self defense, he clearly is the victim here, and he should be treated with the respect that any victim should merit"

Los Angeles
10-06-2006, 08:23 PM
Why are you telling me this? I know that there are bad parts in Venice. WTF does it have to do with Lafayette Square Mall? If there are some ****ty spots on the NW side of Indy, does that mean everyone should avoid the whole neighborhood?

Sounds like an attitude much like the 70's white flight to me, which is why Roaming gets a "ding".

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 08:32 PM
Is going to gentlemen's clubs against the law? Last time I checked, it was a viable option for late night entertainment. I guess they could have went the Dwayne Wade card and "gone to Steak and Shake"?!?

Anyway, a suspension is a lousy idea!!! Sorry UB and others, it is just a poor idea no matter how you spin it. I could easily see this type of situation happen in a BW'3 parking lot at that hour of night.... So, people essentially want these players punished for Where the situation went down and not Why the situation went down. Idiots approach celebs and act like ******** just about anywhere, especially where drinking is involved. This could have happened outside of a TGI Fridays outside of Castleton Mall. I just don't see what Jackson or any of the others did that was so wrong to warrent a suspension. I didn't know being out at 3am at a gentleman's club, owning a gun, firing it (unlawful in his situation, very much...Was he charged, nope) was enough to warrent a suspension.

There are always people that want to cause trouble with Celebs. The only poor judgement I see in the players actions were being at a public drinking establishment that doesn't normally cater to celebs.

You make a lot of excellent points and I agree with your post I really do. And this morning at 9:00 when I first heard about this I would have agreed with you 100%, but after hearing the citizens of Indianapolis go beserk over the incident, I think for the good of the franchise they need to suspend the players. I hate to say this, but I think it will calm the uproar a little bit.

Hicks
10-06-2006, 08:33 PM
Hicks - this ain't going to just blow over. A very large percentage of the Pacer fan base already hated Jackson and nearly as many had the same feelings toward Tinsley. Throw in Jackson's "introspection" he hasn't got a chance in hell here now - not ever. Now, in the midst of attempts to get rid of the "element" it appears we now have two MORE in the mix you have a very, very bad situation.

Unnecessary millions have been poured into image control and it's shot down on the first night of training camp. The front office has been left without a pot to pee in. Once again, these same characters have tied their hands. I can't imagine Bird not being beyond ballistic about this and Donnie and Rick not far behind.

If I were going to have a meeting with all of them, Herb and Mel would be right there with me. The players didn't flush THEIR money down the toilet.

You are kidding yourself if you think this will blow over. I think the attendance ramifications will be significant. And part of that will come from the fact that there probably won't be any kind of suspension.

When I read a post like this from you, or some of the others, I go over what I've read today again, and I still come out thinking this is being made into much more than it is. It's another bruise on the franchise just from what it sounds like when you hear it, but the details don't add up to a big deal to me. But then again, if some of you feel this way, I'm sure many casual fans will as well, and I think that's a shame. I'm far from a sunshiner, but I just am not riled up about this.

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 08:39 PM
When I read a post like this from you, or some of the others, I go over what I've read today again, and I still come out thinking this is being made into much more than it is. It's another bruise on the franchise just from what it sounds like when you hear it, but the details don't add up to a big deal to me. But then again, if some of you feel this way, I'm sure many casual fans will as well, and I think that's a shame. I'm far from a sunshiner, but I just am not riled up about this.

Hicks, I personally agree with you 100%. However, I talked to several sports fans today who are casual Pacers fans, I've watched a lot of the local news reports, listened to local sports talk show callers, and I have not seen or heard the Pacers franchise ridiculed like this since the the mid 80's. Yes it is that bad. Whether the incident last night warrants it or not, the franchises image is at the lowest point in about 20-25 years.

Hicks
10-06-2006, 08:41 PM
You make a lot of excellent points and I agree with your post I really do. And this morning at 9:00 when I first heard about this I would have agreed with you 100%, but after hearing the citizens of Indianapolis go beserk over the incident, I think for the good of the franchise they need to suspend the players. I hate to say this, but I think it will calm the uproar a little bit.

Other than what I've read here, I haven't heard any reaction by the fans. Did the radio callers really sound that pissed off?

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 08:42 PM
Hicks, I personally agree with you 100%. However, I talked to several sports fans today who are casual Pacers fans, I've watched a lot of the local news reports, listened to local sports talk show callers, and I have not seen or heard the Pacers franchise ridiculed like this since the the mid 80's. Yes it is that bad. Whether the incident last night warrants it or not, the franchises image is at the lowest point in about 20-25 years.

I posted it once before, but I'll mention it up again...

I was openly being mocked by Knicks fans today. And the worst part is I had nothing I could say.

AesopRockOn
10-06-2006, 08:44 PM
I have a feeling Jax's bullets could've hit someone and people here would still try to excuse the incident.

I thought if that happened then Jax was actually acting in self defense.
I do not believe that any suspensions will be handed out considering what Rick said although LB not saying anything means that he's contemplating his response very much. There's no curfew, no apparent specific rules considering nights before training camp practice. Four adults were just caught in a bad situation that could have ended up a lot worse. We probably should trade Jax though. He no longer has any support from either casual or hardcore fans (like on this board) so it's best that he is gone; but we cannot cut him or buy him out. Hopefully, he will be on his best behavior and up his value a little bit. Go Pacers.

lumber man
10-06-2006, 08:45 PM
When I read a post like this from you, or some of the others, I go over what I've read today again, and I still come out thinking this is being made into much more than it is. It's another bruise on the franchise just from what it sounds like when you hear it, but the details don't add up to a big deal to me. But then again, if some of you feel this way, I'm sure many casual fans will as well, and I think that's a shame. I'm far from a sunshiner, but I just am not riled up about this.
i agree with you on this. but, i think it hurt my feelings a little more because of the whole "cleaning up the image" thing. they are not just trying to look better for indy but the world (imo). maybe they should have been a little more careful about what they got into at this point in time. especially with rollin around with weed in their ride.

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 08:45 PM
Snap - buh bye
Tins - suspended no pay 4 games
Quis - suspended no pay 2 games
Jax - suspended no pay 5 games

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 08:48 PM
Other than what I've read here, I haven't heard any reaction by the fans. Did the radio callers really sound that pissed off?

Yes they did

BoomBaby33
10-06-2006, 08:52 PM
Hicks - this ain't going to just blow over. A very large percentage of the Pacer fan base already hated Jackson and nearly as many had the same feelings toward Tinsley. Throw in Jackson's "introspection" he hasn't got a chance in hell here now - not ever. Now, in the midst of attempts to get rid of the "element" it appears we now have two MORE in the mix you have a very, very bad situation.

Unnecessary millions have been poured into image control and it's shot down on the first night of training camp. The front office has been left without a pot to pee in. Once again, these same characters have tied their hands. I can't imagine Bird not being beyond ballistic about this and Donnie and Rick not far behind.

If I were going to have a meeting with all of them, Herb and Mel would be right there with me. The players didn't flush THEIR money down the toilet.

You are kidding yourself if you think this will blow over. I think the attendance ramifications will be significant. And part of that will come from the fact that there probably won't be any kind of suspension.

Suspend Jackson for 1 or all 4 seasons for being detrimental to team chemistry - go ahead and pay him his salary. The players union gets involved and they try to trade him but cant, then he justs sits (while smiling going to the bank with his millions non-the-less). But this would be right to Jackson's heart to do something like this. He couldnt play, if theres one thing about him that you cant deny - hes a competitor and wants to compete. Then again, so was Artest.

I guarantee you now - There are enough fans out there that will not pay for a ticket if he is playing. Regained fanbase = lost salary of Jackson. At this point, Pacer fans will really start declining if Jackson stays.

Case in point: Im no financial analyst or anything like that, but if you lose 3000 fans per game times $75 a piece (by the time you figure inyour ticket, parking, refreshments, and memorabelia stuff) - $225,000 per game. 41 games is nearly 9 million bucks of revenue (per season).

Any financial analysts out there that can help me prove (or dis-prove) this point, by all means, chime in here. How much is 1 fan worth per season actually?

JACKSON absolutely needs to go. This incident, plus the ones in the past (i.e. arguing with RC, arguing with officials, his role in the brawl, and being just plain stupid) has made this as critical as the Artest issue.

CUT YOUR LOSES NOW SIMONS!

Maybe even have to fire Bird and RC (unfortunatley). Somebody has to be the scapegoat.

Anthem
10-06-2006, 08:52 PM
They should all take drug tests.

lumber man
10-06-2006, 08:53 PM
Snap - buh bye
Tins - suspended no pay 4 games
Quis - suspended no pay 2 games
Jax - suspended no pay 5 games
why 5 for jack? the shooting was self defense or he would be locked up.

DisplacedKnick
10-06-2006, 08:55 PM
I understand that you may not be imawhat, but there are others here saying they shouldn't have been at a club at 3am in the morning and also in the neighborhood in which they were.

They shouldn't have - that they were borders on blathering idiocy.

There are strip clubs that cater to celebs and the reason they cater to celebs is because celebs know that in a general run-of-the-mill joint there's a good chance they might be bothered by some drunk idiot.

Pure stupidity.

And pure luck that the idiots didn't have a 12-guage in their car.

lumber man
10-06-2006, 08:55 PM
I posted it once before, but I'll mention it up again...

I was openly being mocked by Knicks fans today. And the worst part is I had nothing I could say.
you could have come up with something, at least our management/ownership is good.

DisplacedKnick
10-06-2006, 09:06 PM
Why are you telling me this? I know that there are bad parts in Venice. WTF does it have to do with Lafayette Square Mall? If there are some ****ty spots on the NW side of Indy, does that mean everyone should avoid the whole neighborhood?

Sounds like an attitude much like the 70's white flight to me, which is why Roaming gets a "ding".

Everyone? Heck no. I won't go to the Mall any more and I haven't gone to Babes or Rio in 5-6 years but that's because my lifestyle changed - not because I ever felt scared there.

But I'm not Stephen Jackson - and even 5 years ago there were people in that club who you could easily see jumping an NBA player's crap just for show.

Is it a good neighborhood? I wouldn't say so. Is it bad? Leans that way - but it's not 42nd St between college and keystone, 38th from Fall Creek to - well, forever East. It's not even Pendleton. But more and more rough folks have been hanging out there and Rio's not the place IMO that any celebrity should be going to - not unless he has more than himself for protection.

spazzxb
10-06-2006, 09:08 PM
I wouldn't be in a situation where someone would want to run me over.


You can't control that. My best friend works at a gas station in Flordia. A few months ago a customer attacked him with a car for trying to get her license plate number after an altercation. There are crazy people everywhere and don't pretend like you are better than my friend. With that said my friend required knee sugery and still can't walk right. All you inconsiderate Jackson haters my get your wish. The sad thing about this is none of the people on this board care at all about the severity of jackson leg injury. This was something your town did to Jack(he did nothing to you. Alot of people on this board need to grow up and stop looking for oppurtunitys to attack our players. The person who attacked Jackson could very well been a middle age message poster who spent there whole summer hating Steven Jackson since he couldn't carry the team on his back. I know half of you want steven gone for nothing, I am just glad our management isn't driven by emotion and excusses like many of our board members. I find i sad that noone even mentions our starting sg could be seriously injured.

DisplacedKnick
10-06-2006, 09:11 PM
you could have come up with something, at least our management/ownership is good.

That's become more debatable over the past couple of years. I believe that Walsh and Bird are much more responsible for the .500 teams the last two seasons than Carlisle. They should be on trial as much as he is this season though I know they're not.

IMO your best comeback is either, "At least we can win few games" or, "And didn't you guys trade for Latrell Sprewell a few years back?"

However, as a Knicks fan, it shames me somewhat to say that I'm happy that another NBA franchise appears to be almost as screwed up as ours.

But I have to go home for Thanksgiving and I had enough of answering the "WTF is wrong with Pacer players?" two years ago.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:11 PM
I wouldn't be in a situation where someone would want to run me over.You are also not a NBA player who is a target for problems everytime he walks out of his house.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:15 PM
you could have come up with something, at least our management/ownership is good.

You could. But you'd be wrong.

indypacerfan54
10-06-2006, 09:17 PM
This is so typical jackson... shooting too much and never hitting anything. This does not surprise me in the least. I was so excited this year and this HAS put a major damper on my Pacer spirits. I am a huge sunshiner and even i want tins and jax outta here as fast as we can.

Also to those who think there is not a difference between 38th and laff and areas like castleton or fishers... wake up and look around. I know Roaming Gnome took great offense to calling this neighborhood terrible. He being black even resorted to the race card, but can you name a large predominantly white area of any major US city that approachs the violence that african americans perpetrate on each other all over the country.

It is idiotic to think that going to tgi fridays at 86th and keystone carries the same risk as going to a nudie bar on 38th. Yes anything can happen anywhere at anytime but the percentage and liklihood of getting into trouble at certain areas of cities certainly exists.

I feel for the Pacers organization and its fans and I expect a quick and harsh punishment for all those involved. Reason being if you dont have sense to not be out at a tittty bar on a thursday at 3:00 am during training camp while packing heat and getting high on drugs then you do not deserve the honor of being paid millions while playing a game.

And to those of you who say that just because you play pro ball means you can do things that an everyday schmoe does... to paraphrase TOs publicist "Ive got 30 million reasons to stay home"

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:17 PM
You are also not a NBA player who is a target for problems everytime he walks out of his house.

You're right, and that magnifies why it was so dumb for them to go to that club at that time of night.

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 09:20 PM
I find i sad that noone even mentions our starting sg could be seriously injured.

I for one am very concerned about this....It could transform his trade value from "laughable" to "absolutely zero".

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:21 PM
I'm not sure if you were speaking directly to me Roaming Gnome or just referencing my quote, but if you are speaking to me, you should know that I'm agreeing with you.

So are you saying they should have been there?

Sorry, but I'm going to hold them to a higher standard than that. They put themselves at risk, whether on purpose or not, because of some lousy decisions.

These are the some of the same players that we complain about thier on-court decisions.

Is there a connection between their on-court stupidity and off-court stupidity? I don't know.

Either way, I'm tired of both the on-court and off-court stupidity.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:21 PM
You're right, and that magnifies why it was so dumb for them to go to that club at that time of night.Yes last night was the first time a NBA player ever went to a strip club at 3 am in the morning. I dont blame nothing on the players I dont give a damn when they went to a club or what club they went to. From everything I read today none of it says that the Pacers players started this and I will not blame Jack for protecting himself.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:25 PM
My humble opinion LB has all ready had them in the office, told them under no circumstances. Will these kind of things will be acceptable. And if they do then they will be moving.

I wish I could believe this, but someone, somewhere, is creating a culture where this type of embarassing activity goes unpunished. I think this started in the Isiah years, but it seems to have grown exponentially since Bird returned. And its been compounded by this new philosophy that came with Larry, getting "equal value" for your trash.

As we say around the office occasionally, sometimes you fire somebody for the benefit of everybody you want to keep. Otherwise, it appears you are rewarding this type of behavior.

IMO, Its time to sever ties with one of the two members of our starting backcourt. But that's different than fines and suspensions.

indypacerfan54
10-06-2006, 09:28 PM
Why is the element of weed getting swept under the rug so easily? It wasnt there for aesthetic purposes...they were using it to get HIGH!!! How is anyone defending them.

THEY WERE HIGH ON DURGS

THEY WERE AT A LOWLIFE STRIP CLUB

THEY WERE UP AT 3:00 AM DURING TRAINING CAMP

THEY BROUGHT GUNS TO A STRIP CLUB

Who cares if it was in self defense it should never have happened

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:28 PM
Yes last night was the first time a NBA player ever went to a strip club at 3 am in the morning. I dont blame nothing on the players I dont give a damn when they went to a club or what club they went to. From everything I read today none of it says that the Pacers players started this and I will not blame Jack for protecting himself.

Again, Jerm, weren't not talking about a club that has a history of celebs as clientelle, and understands how to protect them. This ain't the Gold Club where Patrick Ewing probably has a room named after him.

By carrying guns and no body guards and (presumably) insufficient security, they were taking this responsibility onto themselves. That's a losing proposition.

Let alone during "training camp."

Maybe Rick's not running them enough if they have the stamina to be out until 3am during training camp.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:30 PM
I told yall before Rick is afraid of Jack. God knows Rick wouldnt tell Jack to stay in.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:31 PM
Why is the element of weed getting swept under the rug so easily? It wasnt there for aesthetic purposes...they were using it to get HIGH!!! How is anyone defending them.

THEY WERE HIGH ON DURGS

THEY WERE AT A LOWLIFE STRIP CLUB

THEY WERE UP AT 3:00 AM DURING TRAINING CAMP

THEY BROUGHT GUNS TO A STRIP CLUB

Who cares if it was in self defense it should never have happened
You dont know if they were high on drugs.

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 09:31 PM
Why is the element of weed getting swept under the rug so easily? It wasnt there for aesthetic purposes...they were using it to get HIGH!!! How is anyone defending them.

THEY WERE HIGH ON DURGS

THEY WERE AT A LOWLIFE STRIP CLUB

THEY WERE UP AT 3:00 AM DURING TRAINING CAMP

THEY BROUGHT GUNS TO A STRIP CLUB

Who cares if it was in self defense it should never have happened

I hear ya on most of that....But the cop said the weed found was enough to roll one joint...That's a relatively negligible amount, especially when you consider the fact that there was at least four NBA-sized guys there and probably a couple of hanger-ons partaking as well.

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 09:33 PM
I told yall before Rick is afraid of Jack. God knows Rick wouldnt tell Jack to stay in.

Do you mean God, God....Or Jermaine, God?

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:34 PM
I told yall before Rick is afraid of Jack. God knows Rick wouldnt tell Jack to stay in.

I agree, but if there's one thing you and I absolutely agree on, its Rick Carlisle.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:34 PM
Jermaine of course. Jermaine is the leader so he knows Rick wouldnt tell Jack to stay in.

indypacerfan54
10-06-2006, 09:34 PM
IT WAS ALREADY SMOKED!!!

You dont think thats all that was bought do you. Remember they are millionaires and can afford to buy for everyone.

It does not matter "what they found" use your head. This isnt a court of law its a court of public opinion.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:35 PM
IT WAS ALREADY SMOKED!!!

You dont think thats all that was bought do you. Remember they are millionaires and can afford to buy for everyone.

Where'd that come from? I haven't heard that all day.

BoomBaby33
10-06-2006, 09:36 PM
This is so typical jackson... shooting too much and never hitting anything. This does not surprise me in the least. I was so excited this year and this HAS put a major damper on my Pacer spirits. I am a huge sunshiner and even i want tins and jax outta here as fast as we can.

...

It is idiotic to think that going to tgi fridays at 86th and keystone carries the same risk as going to a nudie bar on 38th. Yes anything can happen anywhere at anytime but the percentage and liklihood of getting into trouble at certain areas of cities certainly exists.

I feel for the Pacers organization and its fans and I expect a quick and harsh punishment for all those involved. Reason being if you dont have sense to not be out at a tittty bar on a thursday at 3:00 am during training camp while packing heat and getting high on drugs then you do not deserve the honor of being paid millions while playing a game.

And to those of you who say that just because you play pro ball means you can do things that an everyday schmoe does... to paraphrase TOs publicist "Ive got 30 million reasons to stay home"



EXACTLY, bottom line, the essence of the whole situation. Your a professional athlete - act like one.

indypacerfan54 - EXCELLENT point and very well stated.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:38 PM
IT WAS ALREADY SMOKED!!!

You dont think thats all that was bought do you. Remember they are millionaires and can afford to buy for everyone.

It does not matter "what they found" use your head. This isnt a court of law its a court of public opinion.Ducktales. Find me where it says that the weed was smoked already?

Los Angeles
10-06-2006, 09:38 PM
Why is the element of weed getting swept under the rug so easily? It wasnt there for aesthetic purposes...they were using it to get HIGH!!! How is anyone defending them.
We only know that one member of the entourage was in possession of pot. Could have been a Pacer, could have been a friend. You don't know who was high and who wasn't.


THEY WERE HIGH ON DURGS
All of them? You sure?


THEY WERE AT A LOWLIFE STRIP CLUB PD's official officer friendly disagrees.


THEY WERE UP AT 3:00 AM DURING TRAINING CAMP Warm.


THEY BROUGHT GUNS TO A STRIP CLUB Warmer.


Who cares if it was in self defense it should never have happenedBingo!

MagicRat
10-06-2006, 09:38 PM
THEY WERE HIGH ON DURGS

That made me chuckle......

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 09:43 PM
IT WAS ALREADY SMOKED!!!

You're most certainly right....But my point is that they probably smoked a blunt or two on the way to the club between a bunch of guys. This isn't exactly a Nate Newton scenario.

And I'm not trying to be a jerk, but based on your statement that "They were high on drugs" I imagine you're not all that personally familiar with smoking weed. Of course, NBA players are not supposed to smoke at all, but we all know they do and the fact that they had smoked earlier surely had nothing to do with any later altercation. I'd be pretty surprised if none of the other 15 guys currently on the roster didn't smoke weed last night as well. They just did it somewhere with a little less media exposure, like smart little weed heads.

Also...that's the last I'm gonna say on this....Really not interested in a marijuana debate.

indypacerfan54
10-06-2006, 09:45 PM
LA just because "only" one person was in possession of the pot does not mean they all didnt some... Lets just say; however unlikely that the pot was not Tinsleys also, however unlikely that no Pacer was smoking it...Its even more retarded that tinsley let someone keep it in his car

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:46 PM
Some of you act like they should be locked in cages and let out when basketball games start. Stop ****ing acting like you own them because you are a fan of the Indiana Pacers. They went to a club and someone started **** with them, they tried to get away from it but they got attacked.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:46 PM
Are we talking about ashes?

I'm so confused.

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 09:49 PM
why 5 for jack? the shooting was self defense or he would be locked up.

I meant 5 for Tins and 4 for Jax. sorry

indypacerfan54
10-06-2006, 09:49 PM
Jermainiac that is possibly the most immature attitude that anyone could take reguarding this situation.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:49 PM
Some of you act like they should be locked in cages and let out when basketball games start. Stop ****ing acting like you own them because you are a fan of the Indiana Pacers. They went to a club and someone started **** with them, they tried to get away from it but they got attacked.

Lighten up, Jerm.

There's a difference between "locked in cages" and having enough sense to go someplace (and so late at night) where it isn't really remotely surprising that some type of incident occurred.

No one is questioning the way they defended themselves once the incident begun. But its 100% appropriate to criticize or second-guess the decisions that got them into that position in the first place.

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 09:51 PM
you could have come up with something, at least our management/ownership is good.

Knicks management is getting better.

Fired Brown, gave Zeke the ultamatum, signed JJ.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:52 PM
People go to strip bars at 3am all the time, we never talk about them? Because Stephen Jackson has a NBA contract he is a higher form of human being and he cant go to bars at 3am like other people do?

grace
10-06-2006, 09:53 PM
I was going to read the whole thread but I decided I have better things to do with my time. I'm suggesting something different that fines and suspensions. Since they seem to like "dancers" so much put them all on Dancing With The Stars.

vapacersfan
10-06-2006, 09:53 PM
The short answer: yes.

These guys not only represent themselves, the also represent the Indiana Pacers basketball franchise and the state of Indiana.

Were the completely in the wrong? No. Should they have been in that situation to start off with? No.

Should they be punished for making a bad decision? Yes.

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 09:54 PM
Some of you act like they should be locked in cages and let out when basketball games start. Stop ****ing acting like you own them because you are a fan of the Indiana Pacers. They went to a club and someone started **** with them, they tried to get away from it but they got attacked.

And you know that how? How do you know they didn't talk the **** right back? They ARE celebrities ya know.

Los Angeles
10-06-2006, 09:54 PM
LA just because "only" one person was in possession of the pot does not mean they all didnt some... Lets just say; however unlikely that the pot was not Tinsleys also, however unlikely that no Pacer was smoking it...Its even more retarded that tinsley let someone keep it in his car
Well you've certainly proven that you don't know anything about anything.

You don't know who saw what, who knew what, who smoked what. You don't know who was there, who they were with, or what they did.

You can assume all you want, but you don't know anything.

vapacersfan
10-06-2006, 09:55 PM
People go to strip bars at 3am all the time, we never talk about them? Because Stephen Jackson has a NBA contract he is a higher form of human being and he cant go to bars at 3am like other people do?

Different people have to follow different standards.

As I said in another thread, I have no problem with these guys going out to any clubs, as long as it is on their time. I do, however, have a problem with them going to a club during training camp or during the regular season.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:55 PM
Jermainiac that is possibly the most immature attitude that anyone could take reguarding this situation.No its not, Stephen Jackson is a NBA player so its wrong for him to go to a club at 3am but any other human not under contract with your favorite NBA team its not.

grace
10-06-2006, 09:56 PM
Lighten up, Jerm.

This from someone who says Jax went out looking for trouble. :rolleyes:

:potkettle:

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 09:57 PM
Different people have to follow different standards.

As I said in another thread, I have no problem with these guys going out to any clubs, as long as it is on their time. I do, however, have a problem with them going to a club during training camp or during the regular season.
You work right? And you probably work year round other then maybe a week or two of vacation? So I dont want you going to clubs at anytime other then your vacation time. Stay in your house for 8 months, all you are allowed to do is go to work. Or I have a problem with you.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 09:58 PM
People go to strip bars at 3am all the time, we never talk about them? Because Stephen Jackson has a NBA contract he is a higher form of human being and he cant go to bars at 3am like other people do?

Sure he can. he has that right.

He also has the right to curse at his coach.

Take bad shots.

Be a ballhog.

Spend too much time yelling at the refs.

He's a terrible decision maker, and this is just another example of it.

I'd be perfectly happy for him taking all of this baggage to our biggest rival.

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 09:59 PM
No its not, Stephen Jackson is a NBA player so its wrong for him to go to a club at 3am but any other human not under contract with your favorite NBA team its not.

Have to say I agree with Jermaniac here....I personally don't give two ****s what you do with your life as long as you shoot over 40% and play some defense. But for Christsake, don't bring guns and start busting off into a car so I have to read about it in the damn newspaper.

Leisure Suit Larry
10-06-2006, 09:59 PM
Nothings going to happen to them.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:00 PM
And you know that how? How do you know they didn't talk the **** right back? They ARE celebrities ya know.Because the police said so. Better luck next time Samson.

vapacersfan
10-06-2006, 10:01 PM
You work right? And you probably work year round other then maybe a week or two of vacation? So I dont want you going to clubs at anytime other then your vacation time. Stay in your house for 8 months, all you are allowed to do is go to work. Or I have a problem with you.

Yes, I work.

Although its crazy to compare my job to that of an NBA player. Even if I did work full time, I dont get a 3 month vacation every year.

FWIW, I only work Monday and Fridays.

You can try to spin what I say all you want, but when you are a celeb you know what a good place to be is, and what a place you should "stay away" from is.

FWIW, I have NEVER gone out to a club/party during the work week, but then again Im not a pro athlete...

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:02 PM
Sure he can. he has that right.

He also has the right to curse at his coach.

Take bad shots.

Be a ballhog.

Spend too much time yelling at the refs.

He's a terrible decision maker, and this is just another example of it.

I'd be perfectly happy for him taking all of this baggage to our biggest rival.Those things have nothing to do with what we are talking about. I want Jackson traded too I dont like him as a player either but he is not wrong for what he did.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 10:02 PM
This from someone who says Jax went out looking for trouble. :rolleyes:

:potkettle:

http://www.brucespringsteen.net/art/songs/Johnny99.gif
<!-- lyrics -->Well they closed down the auto plant in Mahwah late that month
Ralph went out lookin' for a job but he couldn't find none
He came home too drunk from mixin'Tanqueray and wine
He got a gun shot a night clerk now they call'm Johnny 99

Down in the part of town where when you hit a red light you don't stop
Johnny's wavin' his gun around and threatenin' to blow his top
When an off duty cop snuck up on him from behind
Out in front of the Club Tip Top they slapped the cuffs on Johnny 99

Well the city supplied a public defender but the judge was Mean John Brown
He came into the courtroom and stared young Johnny down
Well the evidence is clear gonna let the sentence son fit the crime
Prison for 98 and a year and we'll call it even Johnny 99

A fistfight broke out in the courtroom they had to drag Johnny's girl away
His mama stood up and shouted "Judge don't take my boy this way"
Well son you got a statement you'd like to make
Before the bailiff comes to forever take you away

Now judge judge I had debts no honest man could pay
The bank was holdin' my mortgage and they was takin' my house away
Now I ain't sayin' that makes me an innocent man
But it was more 'n all this that put that gun in my hand

Well your honor I do believe I'd be better off dead
And if you can take a man's life for the thoughts that's in his head
Then won't you sit back in that chair and think it over judge one more time
And let 'em shave off my hair and put me on that execution line

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:04 PM
Yes, I work.

Although its crazy to compare my job to that of an NBA player. Even if I did work full time, I dont get a 3 month vacation every year.

FWIW, I only work Monday and Fridays.

You can try to spin what I say all you want, but when you are a celeb you know what a good place to be is, and what a place you should "stay away" from is.

FWIW, I have NEVER gone out to a club/party during the work week, but then again Im not a pro athlete...Look in the huge thread we have about this accident, there is a picture of Jack at the same club taken at a earlier time. Which ment he went there before and he had never been attacked. You can be attacked by a idiot at church and at a strip club, it dont matter where you are at. Idiots were present at the club and a NBA player happend to be there, so they thought they would get famous.

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 10:05 PM
Because the police said so. Better luck next time Samson.

Were the police there when it happened? Did they see it happen? Is it a first hand account?

Exactly.

indypacerfan54
10-06-2006, 10:05 PM
"People go to strip bars at 3am all the time, we never talk about them? Because Stephen Jackson has a NBA contract he is a higher form of human being and he cant go to bars at 3am like other people do?"

I know you dont understand this but Ill TRY to explain it to you anyway. Jobs do dictate how you behave away from the job. Or you dont get the job.

For instance I work at enterprise car rentals if I get 2 speeding tix with in 2 years I lose my job.

For instance would you think less of a minister if he did what SJ did?

What about a police officer or a teacher or a politician or a lawyer or a or your doctor...and so on

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 10:05 PM
Those things have nothing to do with what we are talking about. I want Jackson traded too I dont like him as a player either but he is not wrong for what he did.

I've already done this too many times today.

He had the right to go whereever he wanted and to pursue whatever type of entertainment he pursued.

But it was stupid for him to go to that club, in that neighborhood, at that time of night. That's what makes it "wrong."

Bring the entertainment in. Go to a club that has the capacity for celebrities. Don't put yourself in a position where fans of your team can say, "That was a really, really bad idea in the first place."

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:07 PM
Were the police there when it happened? Did they see it happen? Is it a first hand account?

Exactly.The security camera saw what happend. Sit on your hands now.

Leisure Suit Larry
10-06-2006, 10:08 PM
Look in the huge thread we have about this accident, there is a picture of Jack at the same club taken at a earlier time. Which ment he went there before and he had never been attacked. You can be attacked by a idiot at church and at a strip club, it dont matter where you are at. Idiots were present at the club and a NBA player happend to be there, so they thought they would get famous.

Great post. People like "Fingers" and "Deano" are the ones who go out looking to start crap because that will be a high point of their lives.

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 10:10 PM
The security camera saw what happend. Sit on your hands now.

The security camera caught what happened inside too? Does it provide closed captioning? Do you read lips from a black and white camera that has a view from 50 feet in the air?

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:11 PM
The security camera caught what happened inside too? Does it provide closed captioning? Do you read lips from a black and white camera that has a view from 50 feet in the air?No but you could see someone walking away from a fight from 50 feet in the air. Crawl bank into your ink cartrige.

JayRedd
10-06-2006, 10:15 PM
No but you could see someone walking away from a fight from 50 feet in the air.

Where is this video? You have a link?

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 10:21 PM
So the security camera proves they made a stupid decision by being there in the first place?

I have no problem with him defending himself. What happened once the altercation began is not relevant to my anger over this.

I have a serious problem with all four of them putting themselves in this situation in the first place.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:23 PM
Where is this video? You have a link?It was in one of those articles where the police and the owner are talking.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:24 PM
So the security camera proves they made a stupid decision by being there in the first place?

I have no problem with him defending himself. What happened once the altercation began is not relevant to my anger over this.

I have a serious problem with all four of them putting themselves in this situation in the first place.
They are GROWN *** MEN they can go where ever the hell they want when ever the hell they want. Their boss doesnt have a curfew for them so they didnt break any rules for their job by going to a strip club at 3am.

ChicagoJ
10-06-2006, 10:37 PM
Right, they didn't break any rules. I get it - I've never argued differently.

They made a stupid decision. That's my point.

GROWN *** MEN (as you call them) "can go where ever the hell they want when ever the hell they want". And when they make a mistake, like this one, they have to deal with the consequences because they are GROWN *** MEN.

Doug
10-06-2006, 10:38 PM
They are GROWN *** MEN they can go where ever the hell they want when ever the hell they want. Their boss doesnt have a curfew for them so they didnt break any rules for their job by going to a strip club at 3am.

Don't you feel the least bit embarrassed that the reputation of Pacers franchise has been stained once again?

After we have been all but promised by TPTB through their advertising campaign that "We're sorry. We let you down. We've address it. It won't happen again."

And that the principle player involved in the incident spent Q&A talking about how he'd learned a lot this summer, that he knew he had to change his behavior "on and off the court"?


And people wondered why I thought the Q&A was BS! Actions speak louder than words.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:43 PM
So Stephen Jackson should be allowed to be attacked and run over but not try to protect himself because of a dumbass Q&A. Get that **** out of here, because of a thing he said in the offseason he shouldnt protect himself.

When you see Stephen Jackson in public assault him, he isnt allowed to protect himself because he said he has changed in a Q&A with Mike Wells over the summer.

Doug
10-06-2006, 10:49 PM
Where did I say he shouldn't be able to defend himself?

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 10:51 PM
No but you could see someone walking away from a fight from 50 feet in the air. Crawl bank into your ink cartrige.

Does it show what he might have said BEFORE he walked away? There's something that happened thats missing here - who knows f we'll ever know what that is tho.

Leisure Suit Larry
10-06-2006, 10:52 PM
Before he fired the shots, Jackson should have asked himself, "What will those people over on Pacers Digest think?"

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:52 PM
Where did I say he shouldn't be able to defend himself?Well you are *****ing about the accident and how Jack hasnt changed? How has he not changed he went out and someone started trouble with him so he protected himself. He did nothing wrong, we still dont know if he changed his behavior on the court. If he stops all his little antics on the court, I'm 100% fine with Jack being on this team, he did nothing to prove to me he didnt change.

Robertmto
10-06-2006, 10:54 PM
Before he fired the shots, Jackson should have asked himself, "What will those people over on Pacers Digest think?"

No he should have thought "what will this do for my career, my reputation and my team's reputation."

Obviuosly he doesn't care. The altervation was over, the assailants were driving away. Jax could have got in his car, went to the hospital and never had all this bad publicity hanging over his head.

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 10:56 PM
Does it show what he might have said BEFORE he walked away? There's something that happened thats missing here - who knows f we'll ever know what that is tho.LMAO *removed*, lock Stephen Jackson away and throw away the key. I didnt see you waiting to see all the information when Areans got arrested this summer.
You are done for the night.

BlueNGold
10-06-2006, 10:58 PM
he did nothing to prove to me he didnt change.

Yes, he has not changed at all. Not asking him to change either. But I do think he is a large liability to the franchise and therefore must go. People can make points that he acted in self defense, and it may very well be true. None of this matters. Only the bottom line matters and the accountants don't really care.

The truth is, Jack is paid a lot of money to do what he does. A sizable chunk of that money has been made available by fans that are not happy with him...for whatever reason he is a financial drain on this franchise.

The Simons better move him.

Doug
10-06-2006, 11:01 PM
Well you are *****ing about the accident and how Jack hasnt changed? How has he not changed he went out and someone started trouble with him so he protected himself. He did nothing wrong, we still dont know if he changed his behavior on the court. If he stops all his little antics on the court, I'm 100% fine with Jack being on this team, he did nothing to prove to me he didnt change.

Because he put himself in the position to embarrass the franchise. Again.

I'm not questioning his judgement during the altercation. I wasn't there. In fact, I even posted earlier in another thread that "it sounded like Jackson made several correct decisions and generally tried to avoid trouble once it started. "

That's not the issue. I haven't seen one person seriously suggest that Jackson or anybody else for that matter doesn't have the right to defend themselves, especially from a potentially deadly assult with a motor vehicle.

The issue is that we've been told, no we've been promised, everything was better, that this year would be different, and the season hasn't even really started and it's the same old crap.

And I'm sick of being the laughing stock of the league. And we are. Sure, it's funny when it's the "Jailblazers". It's not funny when it's a franchise I care about, when it's "my" team.

ABADays
10-06-2006, 11:04 PM
They are GROWN *** MEN they can go where ever the hell they want when ever the hell they want. Their boss doesnt have a curfew for them so they didnt break any rules for their job by going to a strip club at 3am.

What is it you don't understand Jermaniac? Sometimes YOU have to make the smart decisions for yourself - not your boss. This, obviously, wasn't a smart decision.

Pointz
10-06-2006, 11:07 PM
I don't think anybody is looking at the big picture here...SJax fires 5 shots off and doesn't hit a thing I guess that explains last season and possibly this one. Thank you Alex B.

Doug
10-06-2006, 11:09 PM
Hicks - this ain't going to just blow over. A very large percentage of the Pacer fan base already hated Jackson and nearly as many had the same feelings toward Tinsley. Throw in Jackson's "introspection" he hasn't got a chance in hell here now - not ever. Now, in the midst of attempts to get rid of the "element" it appears we now have two MORE in the mix you have a very, very bad situation.

Unnecessary millions have been poured into image control and it's shot down on the first night of training camp. The front office has been left without a pot to pee in. Once again, these same characters have tied their hands. I can't imagine Bird not being beyond ballistic about this and Donnie and Rick not far behind.

If I were going to have a meeting with all of them, Herb and Mel would be right there with me. The players didn't flush THEIR money down the toilet.

You are kidding yourself if you think this will blow over. I think the attendance ramifications will be significant. And part of that will come from the fact that there probably won't be any kind of suspension.

ABADays, BTW I thought that was a very good post. It kind of got lost in the thread.

My thought was that Bird had to be looking around for Slick's old hockey stick.

Unclebuck
10-06-2006, 11:21 PM
Because he put himself in the position to embarrass the franchise. Again.

I'm not questioning his judgement during the altercation. I wasn't there. In fact, I even posted earlier in another thread that "it sounded like Jackson made several correct decisions and generally tried to avoid trouble once it started. "

That's not the issue. I haven't seen one person seriously suggest that Jackson or anybody else for that matter doesn't have the right to defend themselves, especially from a potentially deadly assult with a motor vehicle.

The issue is that we've been told, no we've been promised, everything was better, that this year would be different, and the season hasn't even really started and it's the same old crap.

And I'm sick of being the laughing stock of the league. And we are. Sure, it's funny when it's the "Jailblazers". It's not funny when it's a franchise I care about, when it's "my" team.


Your post got me thinking. If the incident never occurred, but it was widely reported and confirmed that those 4 players were at that club until 3:00 AM, do you think the reaction of the fans would have been anything close to what it was. I say no it wouldn't, so it does matter what went on in the parking lot.

SycamoreKen
10-06-2006, 11:23 PM
Don't you feel the least bit embarrassed that the reputation of Pacers franchise has been stained once again?

After we have been all but promised by TPTB through their advertising campaign that "We're sorry. We let you down. We've address it. It won't happen again."

And that the principle player involved in the incident spent Q&A talking about how he'd learned a lot this summer, that he knew he had to change his behavior "on and off the court"?


And people wondered why I thought the Q&A was BS! Actions speak louder than words.

I've come to the conclusion that Jermaniac cares a lot more for the names on the back of the jerseys than the name on the front. There is nothing wrong with that, I followed the Celtics when Bird was there and moved on afterwords.

Here is my longer take on why this is not good for the TEAM:

1. Jackson is already public enemy #1 with the a very large percentage of the ticket buying fan base.

2. I would wager a large percentage of that ticket buying fan base frown on visiting strip clubs and smoking dope.

3. That same fan base is probably tired of seeing their city represented like Cincy all over again.

Now when #1 makes the bad decision to put himself in a situation where #'s 2 & 3 can happen, even if he didn't start the incident, the paying customer is upset again.

I don't care what is legal or not legal, that they are grown men, and all that other stuff. You have to keep the people that pay the bills happy. If you don't think so ask the Trailblazers and the downtown businesses in Portland that have lost millions because "grown men" were doing their thing.

ABADays
10-06-2006, 11:29 PM
Your post got me thinking. If the incident never occurred, but it was widely reported and confirmed that those 4 players were at that club until 3:00 AM, do you think the reaction of the fans would have been anything close to what it was. I say no it wouldn't, so it does matter what went on during in the parking lot.

No it wouldn't have been that big of a deal. What matters UB is there is a pattern now set in concrete that things have a tendency to escalate with Jackson.

grace
10-06-2006, 11:31 PM
Your post got me thinking. If the incident never occurred, but it was widely reported and confirmed that those 4 players were at that club until 3:00 AM, do you think the reaction of the fans would have been anything close to what it was. I say no it wouldn't, so it does matter what went on during in the parking lot.

I say the only thing different in the thread would be replacing "the fact is they went to a strip club and got attacked by some nut" with "what if some nut had picked a fight with them?"

Jermaniac
10-06-2006, 11:37 PM
I've come to the conclusion that Jermaniac cares a lot more for the names on the back of the jerseys than the name on the front. There is nothing wrong with that, I followed the Celtics when Bird was there and moved on afterwords.
LMAO Dude you are a teacher, a teacher, dont be mad at me. I'm not moving on from crap, you hate me and it hurts you. You are a grown man worrying about what I'm doing. Step your life up boy boy.

Like I said many times this summer I would trade Stephen Jackson in a heart beat but I'm not gonna blame a man for protecting himself.

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 01:13 AM
Rick Carlisle: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."

That statement sounds familiar.

- Jax punches spectators on 11/19:

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."


- Jax hogs the ball and doesn't pass and gets booed by fans.

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."


- Jax continues to yell at officials and gain suspensions for his inability to control his anger.

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."


- Jax gets into a shoving match with JO on the sidelines.

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."


- Jax cusses out his coach in front of the fans.

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."


- Jax heads to a strip club packing a gun and gets involved in an incident with gunfire.

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."


- Jax gets heavily booed in his next appearance at Conseco, loses his temper and shoots the bird at all the fans.

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."


- Jax hits on several hot Pacemates during a postgame press conference after leading the team in prayer with his six children at his side as he lectures all those around on the importance of being a role model. One of the Pacemates' boyfriends shoves Jax and they get into a fight while an ESPN cameraman films the incident. Jax loses his temper and pulls a gun from his sock and shoots in the air to calm the incident, but one of the bullets lands on Mel Simon's head, leaving him in critical condition.

RC and TPTB: "It was an error in judgment, and that has to change . . . it was a lesson learned."

WHEN WILL SOMEBODY LEARN THE LESSON?

rwagner
10-07-2006, 02:51 AM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Where the hell were you pepole when Mike Doss pulled this same act EXCEPT not in self defense.

Yes they should have not been there - But they tried very hard to avoid this. If the reports hold up that it was self-defense, then they are innocent. Except for making a bad call in being in the wrong place & time.

And if they are innocent then I think the embarassment is enough punishment.

Yes this was uncalled for, but you live and learn. Cry me a river!:censored:

SoupIsGood
10-07-2006, 03:07 AM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Where the hell were you pepole when Mike Doss pulled this same act EXCEPT not in self defense.

Yes they should have not been there - But they tried very hard to avoid this. If the reports hold up that it was self-defense, then they are innocent. Except for making a bad call in being in the wrong place & time.

And if they are innocent then I think the embarassment is enough punishment.

Yes this was uncalled for, but you live and learn. Cry me a river!:censored:

Yeah, but the Colts don't have our history (brawl, ron artest, etc etc etc)

spazzxb
10-07-2006, 05:43 AM
I've come to the conclusion that Jermaniac cares a lot more for the names on the back of the jerseys than the name on the front. There is nothing wrong with that, I followed the Celtics when Bird was there and moved on afterwords.

Here is my longer take on why this is not good for the TEAM:

1. Jackson is already public enemy #1 with the a very large percentage of the ticket buying fan base.

2. I would wager a large percentage of that ticket buying fan base frown on visiting strip clubs and smoking dope.

3. That same fan base is probably tired of seeing their city represented like Cincy all over again.

Now when #1 makes the bad decision to put himself in a situation where #'s 2 & 3 can happen, even if he didn't start the incident, the paying customer is upset again.

I don't care what is legal or not legal, that they are grown men, and all that other stuff. You have to keep the people that pay the bills happy. If you don't think so ask the Trailblazers and the downtown businesses in Portland that have lost millions because "grown men" were doing their thing.

A high percentage of people who ***** about pot are ****ed up on prescription medication and alchohal, so get off your damn hypocritical highhorse. To tell you guys the truth I just want a winning team. For this reason I still see the good in SJ. Bluntly put, trading Jackson for a bag of rocks is a boderline retarded idea.

Roaming Gnome
10-07-2006, 07:24 AM
I hate to say when a man is right, he is right. Jermaniac is absolutly right. Until Strip clubs are deemed illeagal, 3am is past curfew, and we become Canada where you have no right to carry a pistol. A man can defend himself in a place he HAS bussiness being in.

It just sounds like a lot of you are just trying to resharpen the axe you have to grind with Jackson the player with this incident. As someone mentioned earlier this morning, "What if the head line read, "Pacers player injured in Hit and Run". That is what it is!!! Hell, A players could have been hurt! As I have said many times...A drunk fool comming out of Bennihana could start the same crap with our players. It happens to Celebs all the time in Indy, that is why most of the time they don't go to places where they mingle with the general public. Club Rio is not set up to handle VIP's and it showed on Thurday night. To me, that is the ONLY bit of questionable judgement and that is not a decision that puts the franchise in a bad light.

Oh yeah, if the joints worth of weed is an embarrassment to the franchise...Come on, IPD wasn't even concerned!

naptown
10-07-2006, 08:08 AM
They need to send a strong message. What exactly that should be at this point I dont know yet. Regardless of how innocent (from a police report standpoint) they are, management needs to make certain that the public and players understand that there is going to be consequences for bringing this kind of bad PR to the team.

Fines, certainly. Suspensions, they should all see at least a game.... maybe more depending on what the final police report says.

BlueNGold
10-07-2006, 08:20 AM
I hate to say when a man is right, he is right. Jermaniac is absolutly right. Until Strip clubs are deemed illeagal, 3am is past curfew, and we become Canada where you have no right to carry a pistol. A man can defend himself in a place he HAS bussiness being in.

It just sounds like a lot of you are just trying to resharpen the axe you have to grind with Jackson the player with this incident. As someone mentioned earlier this morning, "What if the head line read, "Pacers player injured in Hit and Run". That is what it is!!! Hell, A players could have been hurt! As I have said many times...A drunk fool comming out of Bennihana could start the same crap with our players. It happens to Celebs all the time in Indy, that is why most of the time they don't go to places where they mingle with the general public. Club Rio is not set up to handle VIP's and it showed on Thurday night. To me, that is the ONLY bit of questionable judgement and that is not a decision that puts the franchise in a bad light.

Oh yeah, if the joints worth of weed is an embarrassment to the franchise...Come on, IPD wasn't even concerned!

I fully believe Jack had the right to do what he did. However, that is not the point at all. His actions have resulted in negative financial impact to the franchise. He is a liability on the balance sheet. He is a defective product in terms of merchandising. He is the proverbial lemon. It is compounded by the fact he is expensive and will be more difficult to trade. For these reasons I find his actions selfish, irresponsible and damaging...but not illegal. At the same time, Jack is being Jack. He's hood and that's just the way it is. Pacer management need to understand this will continue to happen and they will pay a dear price just like with Ron Ron.

Outside the financial impact, I still think he has been selfish and has hurt many fans. The truth is, there are many things that people have the legal right to do that still hurt other people.

Kaufman
10-07-2006, 08:40 AM
Hi guys - I haven't read the whole thread but I want to give my opinion on the original question. I don't live in Indianapolis so I've got limited information, BUT, what exactly did these players do that was in bad judgment or illegal?

The only person that might, might have been involved in anything illegal was Tinsley, and I think its best to let the police investigate that and then do with that and with what they decide, make a decision thereafter. If the police say, as I have heard, that the amount of mj was negligable, and that they can't say definitively that it was Tinsley's, then I think the issue is dropped.

Second, regarding the fact that those guys were at a strip club - well I'm sorry but it is a reality that gentleman's clubs are 100% legal in Indianapolis and so those guys weren't doing anything illegally by being there.

While it might not look good - unless it is stipulated in their contracts that they are not to go to such clubs, then I don't think you can touch any of those players from a punitive standpoint.

While they might be tradebait in the future, I don't think this is the time to get the fairest value for any of them, even though there fair value at this point might be negligable anyway.

So I think everyone should chill out.

Yes it makes the team look bad. BUT - the players didn't do anything wrong, per se. If you want to lay blame somewhere, you have to look at the players past records --- and if they are concerning --- you have to ask why they were given the opportunity to be a part of this team or given the opportunity to stay on this team.

That is my two cents.

rwagner
10-07-2006, 08:55 AM
"Right now, from all the evidence we've gathered," said Sgt. Matthew Mount, an Indianapolis Police Department spokesman, it looks like Jackson and three teammates "were the victims in this case."

SycamoreKen
10-07-2006, 09:33 AM
A high percentage of people who ***** about pot are ****ed up on prescription medication and alchohal, so get off your damn hypocritical highhorse. To tell you guys the truth I just want a winning team. For this reason I still see the good in SJ. Bluntly put, trading Jackson for a bag of rocks is a boderline retarded idea.

I wasn't talking about my point of view but rather the point of view of the people buying season tickets and paying the bills. You really think companies and such that hand out the big bucks aren't thinking about whether they want to associate their money with a group that has a track record of bad publicity? I stated before, it is all about image. Again, I point to Portland, My sister lives there and said that the buisnesses by the arena took a bad hit when the team's image went south.

Personally, I could care less if the guys go to the clubs. That stuff happens and people have to live their lives. Was it their fault the incident happened? No. I hope they all are o.k. It is their fault that they were driving around with weed in their car at 3 a.m. That doesn't build my confidence in their reasoning and common sense skills.

As a fan, I don't put winning above everything else. I don't think I could support a team full of what I thought were thugs and scum bags. I don't feel this team is that, and have been a SJ supporter since he was here in San Antonio. With Ron gone and the rest of the guys moving forward, I'm looking for a nice change this season. At least we know hat we have.

SycamoreKen
10-07-2006, 09:37 AM
LMAO Dude you are a teacher, a teacher, dont be mad at me. I'm not moving on from crap, you hate me and it hurts you. You are a grown man worrying about what I'm doing. Step your life up boy boy.

Like I said many times this summer I would trade Stephen Jackson in a heart beat but I'm not gonna blame a man for protecting himself.

I'm not hating or mad at you, I just made an observation based on what I've read on here and the way you state yourself. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Like SJ, what you do and how you express your opinions is up to you.

RamBo_Lamar
10-07-2006, 09:43 AM
At this point, if they haven't drug tested them (like they should have before
allowing a chance to flush their systems), I would say no, do not fine or
suspend them.

A really better way to conclude this episode would be for the players involved
to come forward on their own, acknowledge showing poor judgement and the
results of that poor judgement underming the Pacers trying to rebuild their
image, and an apology to the city and fans for what happened.

I think something like this would go much further towards making things
right again than the team fining or suspending any of them.

Right now they probably don't feel like they owe any apologies, because
it was likely those other d**b**ses were the ones who started all the
trouble in the first place.

We havn't been told why that bozo punched Jack, and probably won't.
My guess is that he was just another beer swilling Piston's fan who
thought he saw an opportunity to cause us more trouble.

Whatever the reason, our players should know there are alot of haters out
there, and they must be very careful in how they expose themselves to
the public, and that is where their poor judgement came into play
(for the most part).

At this point I would like to see action and an apology from them (the
players involved), and not from the Pacers organization.

DisplacedKnick
10-07-2006, 09:47 AM
Hi guys - I haven't read the whole thread but I want to give my opinion on the original question. I don't live in Indianapolis so I've got limited information, BUT, what exactly did these players do that was in bad judgment or illegal?

The only person that might, might have been involved in anything illegal was Tinsley, and I think its best to let the police investigate that and then do with that and with what they decide, make a decision thereafter. If the police say, as I have heard, that the amount of mj was negligable, and that they can't say definitively that it was Tinsley's, then I think the issue is dropped.

Second, regarding the fact that those guys were at a strip club - well I'm sorry but it is a reality that gentleman's clubs are 100% legal in Indianapolis and so those guys weren't doing anything illegally by being there.

While it might not look good - unless it is stipulated in their contracts that they are not to go to such clubs, then I don't think you can touch any of those players from a punitive standpoint.

While they might be tradebait in the future, I don't think this is the time to get the fairest value for any of them, even though there fair value at this point might be negligable anyway.

So I think everyone should chill out.

Yes it makes the team look bad. BUT - the players didn't do anything wrong, per se. If you want to lay blame somewhere, you have to look at the players past records --- and if they are concerning --- you have to ask why they were given the opportunity to be a part of this team or given the opportunity to stay on this team.

That is my two cents.

That's nice. I hope this is my last post on this topic but I won't promise anything - history tells me I may let myself be pulled back into it.

See, there's a choice between living in the real world or a fantasy world.

In the fantasy world, anyone can go anywhere they want, so long as it's legal, and nobody will bother them. In this fantasy world celebrities can walk into a strip club in a marginal section of town where pimps and drug dealers have been known to frequent and nothing will happen. The pimps and drug dealers won't decide to start ragging on who they perceive as rich, spoiled NBA snobs. They won't, in a state of drunken sexual excitement, decide that getting in a fight with some NBA players may enhance their reputation. In this fantasy world there's no reason for Pacer players not to expose themselves to a situation like this where this may happen. In fact, in this fantasy world the Pacers players may feel free to drive East about 10 blocks, find themselves a nice stretch of public lawn in the most crime-infested region of the city and stretch themselves out on the grass to sleep peacefully through the night, setting their cash-filled wallets beside them because that's more comfortable.

Then there's the real world where grown people should have enough common sense not to place themselves in these kinds of situations. This is a real world where celebrities often have trouble finding peace and quiet. A real world where clubs exist that cater to celebrities - either a place with enough security that others are turned away from even approaching the celebs, where cars are valet parked and where dancers will strip for them in a reasonably safe environment - or even a place where entrance is restricted to club members.

In this real world, going to a public club with minimal security and where anyone can get in for a $5 cover in a marginal part of town exposes you to a criminal element that may get its kicks from confronting or even assaulting an NBA player. In this real world responsible people make responsible judgements. In this real world parents do a little research before hiring a sitter, folks check the batteries in their smoke detectors, consumers check to see that a car has a valid title and registration before buying it and folks look both ways before crossing the street, even if it's in a crosswalk where pedestrians always have the right-of-way. And in this real world 4 Pacers players placed themselves in a situation where there was a strong likelihood of trouble.

I'm very happy that so many of you seem to believe in this fantasy world. In the world I believe in, you make choices and decisions that reduce the chance that something unpleasant may happen to you. Those four players did not make that choice.

And enough - it's your team and it appears that none of those guys did anything criminal. If you believe they have good judgement and make appropriate decisions and are players you'll be happy to have on your team, that's your call to make. I'm afraid though that if Jackson's on the team you'll be looking at a season attendance next year of somewhere between 12,000 and 14,000 in one of the nicest, fan-friendliest arenas in all of sports. That would be unfortunate.

owl
10-07-2006, 10:12 AM
I wouldn't suspend them.

I'd get rid of Jackson at all costs - I don't care if you get a box of Cracker Jack sans toy prize for him - enough is enough.

This is Tinsley's first offense but he still should know better. Rick and Bird need to have a conversation.

Daniels and Snap (who was never making the team anyway) get a pass for being newcomers though they still need to have a conversation.

But with Jackson, enough is enough. There are strip clubs in Indy for celebs - places where they'll valet park your car, security is TIGHT, they bring you cute little drinks that cost $15, etc. People don't blow famous people crap there.

Just poor judgment - and he's shown a more than disturbing pattern of that. He needs to be gone by Oct 31 even if Indy buys him out.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

Better than I could have said it.

vapacersfan
10-07-2006, 10:18 AM
I want to see a stat that proves that " A high percentage of people who ***** about pot are ****ed up on prescription medication and alchohal"....

Evan_The_Dude
10-07-2006, 10:26 AM
I read this thread and understand why things in America are so sugar coated. The majority of the general public doesn't want to know the truth. They especially can't get it through their minds that athletes are humans. Athletes have as much of a right to be at a strip club at 3am (if they have no curfiew), as a middle aged man working at McDonalds. Get over yourselves and your perfect lives.

McKeyFan
10-07-2006, 10:28 AM
That was a helluva post, Rimfire.

vapacersfan
10-07-2006, 10:32 AM
This was posted by Jay in the other S-Jax thread:


Teams have historically had curfews during training camp. Since they no longer go away (and the NBA has significantly restricted practice time), I'm not sure that's true anymore.

Still, being out at 3am during training camp is a bad decision. And that's what is getting the most criticism.

If I had time, I'll re-read all the posts and tally up the complaints.

Being at THAT strip club probably has 5x the number of complaints than being at ANY strip club.

Unfortunately, it seems like every six hours somebody new comes in and starts accusing all the critics of harping about going to a strip club, but a careful re-read of the thread indicates otherwise.

D-BONE
10-07-2006, 10:35 AM
That's nice. I hope this is my last post on this topic but I won't promise anything - history tells me I may let myself be pulled back into it.

See, there's a choice between living in the real world or a fantasy world.

In the fantasy world, anyone can go anywhere they want, so long as it's legal, and nobody will bother them. In this fantasy world celebrities can walk into a strip club in a marginal section of town where pimps and drug dealers have been known to frequent and nothing will happen. The pimps and drug dealers won't decide to start ragging on who they perceive as rich, spoiled NBA snobs. They won't, in a state of drunken sexual excitement, decide that getting in a fight with some NBA players may enhance their reputation. In this fantasy world there's no reason for Pacer players not to expose themselves to a situation like this where this may happen. In fact, in this fantasy world the Pacers players may feel free to drive East about 10 blocks, find themselves a nice stretch of public lawn in the most crime-infested region of the city and stretch themselves out on the grass to sleep peacefully through the night, setting their cash-filled wallets beside them because that's more comfortable.

Then there's the real world where grown people should have enough common sense not to place themselves in these kinds of situations. This is a real world where celebrities often have trouble finding peace and quiet. A real world where clubs exist that cater to celebrities - either a place with enough security that others are turned away from even approaching the celebs, where cars are valet parked and where dancers will strip for them in a reasonably safe environment - or even a place where entrance is restricted to club members.

In this real world, going to a public club with minimal security and where anyone can get in for a $5 cover in a marginal part of town exposes you to a criminal element that may get its kicks from confronting or even assaulting an NBA player. In this real world responsible people make responsible judgements. In this real world parents do a little research before hiring a sitter, folks check the batteries in their smoke detectors, consumers check to see that a car has a valid title and registration before buying it and folks look both ways before crossing the street, even if it's in a crosswalk where pedestrians always have the right-of-way. And in this real world 4 Pacers players placed themselves in a situation where there was a strong likelihood of trouble.

I'm very happy that so many of you seem to believe in this fantasy world. In the world I believe in, you make choices and decisions that reduce the chance that something unpleasant may happen to you. Those four players did not make that choice.

And enough - it's your team and it appears that none of those guys did anything criminal. If you believe they have good judgement and make appropriate decisions and are players you'll be happy to have on your team, that's your call to make. I'm afraid though that if Jackson's on the team you'll be looking at a season attendance next year of somewhere between 12,000 and 14,000 in one of the nicest, fan-friendliest arenas in all of sports. That would be unfortunate.

DK, a very cogent argument. You bring up some very good points and I do agree with you as far as these guys could have exercised better judgment in the club they chose to attend.

However, I think it's a very risky proposition trying to start regulating and punishing people based on bad judgment. This is a value loaded term that is impossible to define. Now, if the Pacers were to give up Jackson for nothing b/c they view his track record of not being able to avoid trouble as to detrimental to the team's image, that is there perrogative I would have no problem. I understand and respect that perspective.

On the other hand, what I don't get is why these other's players would not be significantly disciplined and/or jettisoned either. If you really want to make a statemetn about what is and is not permissible amongst your players, particularly after so much turmoil and ugly publicity the last few seasons, I think you'd pretty much have to make it an across the board no tolerance policy.

I say this only b/c I get tired of people harping on Jackson b/c he is the most visible remaining perpetrator of these public black eyes. I recall images of Tins and the dustpan, DH in the stands, JO walloping some idiot that came on the court. JO and Tins moaning to refs and looking like they're into themselves on the court and making low BB IQ plays, etc., etc.

As far s the brawl, most of the players showed bad judgment. The correct judgment would have been to A) notvfollow Ron into the stands and B) onec all hell broke loose everyone else should have high tailed in into the locker room. Nobody should have made the decision to get into any physical altercations whether in the audience or on the court.

How could anybody suggest this is JT's first offense and he just needs a talking to? He's been talked to over and over and he's been nothing but a negative weight on this team the last to years. It's not just the fact that he doesn't play, I see that guy and I just see bad attitude in the vibe he projects on the court playing or not. And I think his lack of commitment can realistically be questioned.

The weed thing is to me is just yet another level. And the irony of it all is that's the one definitive illegal variable in all this and it's conveniently not followed up on. If we're going to punish people for bad judgment, how about the judgment to even go out with Jack. Seems pretty serious. Snap and Daniels would deserve at least a half season suspension I'd estimate.

I guess all the people on here wanting to punish for bad judgment never make any bad judgments themselves.

ChicagoJ
10-07-2006, 10:38 AM
I read this thread and understand why things in America are so sugar coated. The majority of the general public doesn't want to know the truth. They especially can't get it through their minds that athletes are humans. Athletes have as much of a right to be at a strip club at 3am (if they have no curfiew), as a middle aged man working at McDonalds. Get over yourselves and your perfect lives.

Sure, they've got that right.

But they also take on some responsibilities when they sign that NBA player contract. They are representing a franchise and a city, and although they have the right to make bad decisions, they should still be thoroughly criticized for making bad decisions during training camp.

BoomBaby33
10-07-2006, 10:50 AM
...

I'm afraid though that if Jackson's on the team you'll be looking at a season attendance next year of somewhere between 12,000 and 14,000 in one of the nicest, fan-friendliest arenas in all of sports. That would be unfortunate.

This is basically what I stated before in this thread. What is 1 fan worth per season? What is 3000 fans worth? (i.e. difference between 13000 fans and 16000 fans). Turns out with some quick auditing that those 3000 fans are worth Jax salary for a season, so just cut him, even if we still have to pay him. He is a complete joke!

You can say all you want about he is a grown man and he can do what he wants and he didnt really do anything wrong and all that blah blah blah bs everybody is trying to defend him with. The MAIN point here is that he is in the public eye (microscope) and he needs to represent the team and franchise the right way. Its an IMAGE thing. The Pacers just spent millions in P.R. on trying to clean that image, and in one fell swoop , he screwed it all up.

To answer the original thread question, CUT HIM! He is the CANCER! The other 3 suspend them for a few games (for putting themselves in that situation) a piece and get their attention NOW! Its like raising children - give them an inch and they take a mile!

Pulling out a gun in public - absolute disgrace! Didnt he learn anything in his retaliation in the brawl. Im not even going to the free exhibition game now!


Regained fanbase = lost salary of Jackson.

grace
10-07-2006, 11:14 AM
Yeah, but the Colts don't have our history (brawl, ron artest, etc etc etc)

Sure nothing every happened during a game, but I know I sure as hell didn't want Mustafah Muhammad on the team anymore when all that stuff went down.

grace
10-07-2006, 11:17 AM
A high percentage of people who ***** about pot are ****ed up on prescription medication and alchohal, so get off your damn hypocritical highhorse.

This particular hypocritical high horse is propped up by the fact that pot is illegal.

D-BONE
10-07-2006, 11:25 AM
This particular hypocritical high horse is propped up by the fact that pot is illegal.

Despite the fact that reasonable arguments can be made that if it were legal and regulated as an industry it would probably have no more negative ramifications for society than strip clubs, guns, alcohol, caffeine, other medications, prostitution, the lack of a living wage, an addicition to oil, etc., etc. In fact, even given it's illegality, I'm not sure that's not true in comparison to these and other potential societal ills.

SoupIsGood
10-07-2006, 11:31 AM
Before he fired the shots, Jackson should have asked himself, "What will those people over on Pacers Digest think?"


:-o:laugh:

JayRedd
10-07-2006, 12:12 PM
In the fantasy world, anyone can go anywhere they want, so long as it's legal, and nobody will bother them. In this fantasy world celebrities can walk into a strip club in a marginal section of town where pimps and drug dealers have been known to frequent and nothing will happen. The pimps and drug dealers won't decide to start ragging on who they perceive as rich, spoiled NBA snobs. They won't, in a state of drunken sexual excitement, decide that getting in a fight with some NBA players may enhance their reputation. In this fantasy world there's no reason for Pacer players not to expose themselves to a situation like this where this may happen. In fact, in this fantasy world the Pacers players may feel free to drive East about 10 blocks, find themselves a nice stretch of public lawn in the most crime-infested region of the city and stretch themselves out on the grass to sleep peacefully through the night, setting their cash-filled wallets beside them because that's more comfortable.

Then there's the real world where grown people should have enough common sense not to place themselves in these kinds of situations. This is a real world where celebrities often have trouble finding peace and quiet. A real world where clubs exist that cater to celebrities - either a place with enough security that others are turned away from even approaching the celebs, where cars are valet parked and where dancers will strip for them in a reasonably safe environment - or even a place where entrance is restricted to club members.

I'm not sure why all you guys keep harping on the location they were at.

Now, I've never been to Indianapolis, but I heard from both a cop who worked and lived in that area and a former bouncer at Club Rio, that it's not a "dangerous" place.

The fact that some of you think it's "seedy" or a "place to go looking for trouble" really has very little relevance here. The fact is, these guys aren't you. I imagine this is not their first trip to Club Rio. I sincerely doubt that after all their years in Indy the were just like "Hey, lets go hang out in some dirt bag strip club in the bad part of town."

I imagine these guys feel very comfortable here and don't think anything of going to a part of town that you wouldn't want to hang out in. Jamal Tinsley is from Bed Stuy, Brooklyn. Not sure what Jax hometown is like (Oak Hill, Virginia) but based on how he carries himself, I think it's fair to say that you can't judge where these guys hang out by your middle-class, family-oriented standards (generalizing...sorry to those of you that this doesn't describe).

I'm sure some of you will say "Well, if they feel so comfortable here, why would they bring guns?"

Because that's how these guys roll apparently. My guess is this isn't the first place they've brought guns to. Maybe they even carry guns with them lots of places.

Do you really think the beginning of the night went like this:

Jax: "Hmmm....what should we do tonight?
Tins: "I dunno....What you thinking?"
Jax: "I heard that place Club Rio is supposed to be awesome."
Tins: "I dunno Steve...It's kinda scary over there."
Jax: "Yeah, true....But I just gotta see those naked girls at Rio. I heard they are the best looking girls in Indianopolis. I've never been there, but this drug dealer I met once says it's fun."
Tins: "I dunno man....I'm affraid of that neighborhood."
Jax: "I hear you man. Me too. But wait...I just got an idea!! Let's bring our guns in case we need to use self defense seeing as how we are high-profile basketball players that represent the Indiana Pacers and the community of Indianapolis. That way we'll be safe...And we'll get to see those Rio girls."
Tins: "Wow...Jax. Good thinking. I'll call Quisy and Snap."


CMon....At least try to display some cultural understanding about this whole thing. What you consider a "bad neighborhood" and a "seedy place" has very little relevence in this whole thing.

I'm not saying Jax, Tins, Marquis and Snap aren't idiots. But lets not pretend they should stay away from parts of town you wouldn't want to go to.

DisplacedKnick
10-07-2006, 12:35 PM
I'm not sure why all you guys keep harping on the location they were at.

Now, I've never been to Indianapolis, but I heard from both a cop who worked and lived in that area and a former bouncer at Club Rio, that it's not a "dangerous" place.

The fact that some of you think it's "seedy" or a "place to go looking for trouble" really has very little relevance here. The fact is, these guys aren't you. I imagine this is not their first trip to Club Rio. I sincerely doubt that after all their years in Indy the were just like "Hey, lets go hang out in some dirt bag strip club in the bad part of town."

I imagine these guys feel very comfortable here and don't think anything of going to a part of town that you wouldn't want to hang out in. Jamal Tinsley is from Bed Stuy, Brooklyn. Not sure what Jax hometown is like (Oak Hill, Virginia) but based on how he carries himself, I think it's fair to say that you can't judge where these guys hang out by your middle-class, family-oriented standards (generalizing...sorry to those of you that this doesn't describe).

I'm sure some of you will say "Well, if they feel so comfortable here, why would they bring guns?"

Because that's how these guys roll apparently. My guess is this isn't the first place they've brought guns to. Maybe they even carry guns with them lots of places.

Do you really think the beginning of the night went like this:

Jax: "Hmmm....what should we do tonight?
Tins: "I dunno....What you thinking?"
Jax: "I heard that place Club Rio is supposed to be awesome."
Tins: "I dunno Steve...It's kinda scary over there."
Jax: "Yeah, true....But I just gotta see those naked girls at Rio. I heard they are the best looking girls in Indianopolis. I've never been there, but this drug dealer I met once says it's fun."
Tins: "I dunno man....I'm affraid of that neighborhood."
Jax: "I hear you man. Me too. But wait...I just got an idea!! Let's bring our guns in case we need to use self defense seeing as how we are high-profile basketball players that represent the Indiana Pacers and the community of Indianapolis. That way we'll be safe...And we'll get to see those Rio girls."
Tins: "Wow...Jax. Good thinking. I'll call Quisy and Snap."


CMon....At least try to display some cultural understanding about this whole thing. What you consider a "bad neighborhood" and a "seedy place" has very little relevence in this whole thing.

I'm not saying Jax, Tins, Marquis and Snap aren't idiots. But lets not pretend they should stay away from parts of town you wouldn't want to go to.

I disagree.

Club Rio's not the worst strip club in town and it's not the best. It's not as nice as the downtown ones and not as bad as the East Side ones. It's in an area where there are probably 4-5 strip clubs within a mile - I only know two by name, it and Babes. It's in an area of the city that local residents have re-named Lafayette Scare from Lafayette Square because of the level of violence. Like the strip club it's not the best section of town and not the worst but it has been in a slow state of decline for at least a decade.

I've been in it several times. I have never been afraid there. I am not a celebrity. When I've been there I've seen drug dealers and pimps. I've been offered the opportunity to purchase "dope" (the conversation never went beyond that so I don't know what version of dope we're talking about) and get a blowjob in my car (conversation never went beyond that so I don't know the price). I've gone there carrying a thousand in cash before and nobody's ever tried to mug me, either inside or in the parking lot. (I assume that's why local entrepreneurs have asked me if I would like to purchase additional amenities to enhance my evening)

Yes - those guys aren't me. Those guys are famous. Those are the type of guys who can't walk into a $5 cover place and not be noticed. Those are the type of guys who, when they walk into a place like that, may be someone some drunk @$$hole points at and says, "Look at that spoiled ******. Let's have some fun."

There are places celebrities can go and not have to deal with that kind of crap. There are places with security in the parking lot. There are places where, when a drunk @$$hole approaches a celebrity, the drunk @$$hole is turned away by security. Club Rio isn't one of those places.

JayRedd
10-07-2006, 12:57 PM
There are places celebrities can go and not have to deal with that kind of crap. There are places with security in the parking lot. There are places where, when a drunk @$$hole approaches a celebrity, the drunk @$$hole is turned away by security. Club Rio isn't one of those places.

I think I understand what you're saying DK.

My only point is that maybe these guys don't want to hang out in a sanitized, upscale place with good security. Maybe they just wanted to kick it at Club Rio.

Is that a good decision? Probably not. But I'm guessing they go there sometimes and that's where they enjoy hanging out. I'm not sure it's fair to tell them where they can and can't go.

You've been there. I haven't. So you obviously have a much better knowledge base for your opinion.

But that's my point: it's your opinon.

And it doesn't really carry any objective point of view of what Stephen Jackson and Jamal Tinsley should be doing with their free time. Or where they should be doing it.

DisplacedKnick
10-07-2006, 01:42 PM
I think I understand what you're saying DK.

My only point is that maybe these guys don't want to hang out in a sanitized, upscale place with good security. Maybe they just wanted to kick it at Club Rio.

Is that a good decision? Probably not. But I'm guessing they go there sometimes and that's where they enjoy hanging out. I'm not sure it's fair to tell them where they can and can't go.

You've been there. I haven't. So you obviously have a much better knowledge base for your opinion.

But that's my point: it's your opinon.

And it doesn't really carry any objective point of view of what Stephen Jackson and Jamal Tinsley should be doing with their free time. Or where they should be doing it.


We can go around on this all day - I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying and I'm pretty sure you get what I'm saying. Just to be about 100% I'll go to:


My only point is that maybe these guys don't want to hang out in a sanitized, upscale place with good security. Maybe they just wanted to kick it at Club Rio.

Is that a good decision? Probably not. But I'm guessing they go there sometimes and that's where they enjoy hanging out. I'm not sure it's fair to tell them where they can and can't go.

I'm not going to tell them where they can and can't go. However my opinion is that by going to Rio they placed themselves in a somewhat dangerous position - certainly more dangerous than if they had gone to a more upscale place.

Do they have the right to do this? Absolutely. Maybe Jax even gets more enjoyment out of being around some rougher folks. However by doing so they also put themselves in a position where the chances of some sort of altercation are quite a bit higher.

So the real question becomes this: Should they be held to a higher standard because they're Pacers (or, more generally, people in the news where every move they make is magnified)?

That's an answer for Pacers fans to decide.

Evan_The_Dude
10-07-2006, 01:56 PM
An incident like this might bring out bad feelings from the fans. But it probably brings the players closer together.

imawhat
10-07-2006, 02:06 PM
Why are you telling me this? I know that there are bad parts in Venice. WTF does it have to do with Lafayette Square Mall?

Maybe if you bothered reading what I wrote you wouldn't ask that question.



If there are some ****ty spots on the NW side of Indy, does that mean everyone should avoid the whole neighborhood?

Not at all. But if you're a professional athlete, and you're a large target for criticism, and it's 3 in the morning, and you're in a bad area, then maybe so. But I digress. Like I said, they could've been in the best part of town, and the rest of the variables would still make it a very bad lapse of judgement and a possibly dangerous position to be in.



Sounds like an attitude much like the 70's white flight to me, which is why Roaming gets a "ding".

That's just flat out ignorant, and I'm ashamed you posted it.

imawhat
10-07-2006, 02:15 PM
You can be attacked by a idiot at church and at a strip club, it dont matter where you are at. Idiots were present at the club and a NBA player happend to be there, so they thought they would get famous.

It can happen anywhere, but you're much more likely to be attacked at a strip club than a church. It does matter.

Los Angeles
10-07-2006, 02:17 PM
Just sent you a PM, imawhat.

But I'm posting this publicly so that everybody understands: We shouldn't start running each other over just because some **** in Indy ran over one of our players.

Kestas
10-07-2006, 02:22 PM
Here is what I would do. I'm sure everyone will agree with this.


I agree with that. but could I also suggest you trade Saras? to some, I don't know,.. Championship contender, maybe? I'm sure this would help Pacers even more!!

(don't ask why ;))

Robertmto
10-07-2006, 04:40 PM
LMAO, lock Stephen Jackson away and throw away the key. I didnt see you waiting to see all the information when Areans got arrested this summer.
You are done for the night.

Arenas situation had nothing to do with being out late during training camp, bein in a shady strip club, guns, or drugs.

Pacersin6
10-07-2006, 05:41 PM
I don't chime in much, but Jay and JayRedd are absolutrly correct. It does not matter what we all think its all about the majority of fans.

I have talked to many Pacers fans about this over the last two days and most say they are done with them. I am not advocating fault at all. Iy just is how it is. I don't agree with this city, but it's very conservative like it or not....and for most people on the fence about getting tickets.....they want no part of them. Not saying its right, its just true

jjbjjbjjb
10-07-2006, 07:00 PM
Yes. They should fine and suspend all four players. And they should do it because they are angry at the players for damaging the team's image - make it clear to Jack et al that management feels hurt and that management can hurt back. After the suspension, welcome the players back warmly and move on. Otherwise the player-management relationship becomes one of unequals, where the players take advantage of management to the detriment of the team.

naptown
10-07-2006, 10:16 PM
After reading that Jackson fired the first shot in the air as the car was bearing down on him, I have to say that there should not be any fine or suspension what so ever. The man was trying to save his own life.

These guys ran into some total losers. Yes you can argue all you want that they shouldnt have been there in the first place, but once you are put into a position that your life is in jeopardy you have to protect yourself.

By every account they did nothing wrong while at the club nor did anything to instigate this. They even tried walking away to avoid any problems. But when people wont let you walk away then it is no longer your choice.... and you should not be getting fined, suspended or attacked by the public who refuse to see this the way it is.

Jermaniac
10-07-2006, 11:42 PM
Arenas situation had nothing to do with being out late during training camp, bein in a shady strip club, guns, or drugs.Shut up, It doesnt matter what it had to do with anything you were in that thread all over his nuts saying that Gilbert didnt do anything, but you are in here saying I need to wait till all the information is gathered before I say what I'm saying. Herb.

And who the hell names their son Gilbert. lol Gilbert.

sixthman
10-08-2006, 12:02 AM
This is basically what I stated before in this thread. What is 1 fan worth per season? What is 3000 fans worth? (i.e. difference between 13000 fans and 16000 fans). Turns out with some quick auditing that those 3000 fans are worth Jax salary for a season, so just cut him, even if we still have to pay him. He is a complete joke! [/B]

If cutting Jack was just a matter of paying his salary, cutting him would be an easy decision. But, if you release Jackson now, you will also have his salary counting against the team's salary cap and luxury tax totals for the rest of his long contract. That is not a good deal for the Pacers as the team would be seriously hampered in its effort to build a team. Something else needs to be done.

wintermute
10-08-2006, 12:07 AM
Controversy has once again taken Pacers nation, and Donnie/Larry/Rick are in the position of needing to react once more. Which course of action is best?

Let's leave who is in the right or wrong out of this thread. There are at least 3 threads that go into that exhaustively, and by now everyone would have their minds set.

Instead, focus on the fact that the Pacers have a huge PR problem, and TPTB have to take action.

As I see it, TPTB have the following options

1) Whitewash - The details that we know are increasingly showing that the Pacer players were (arguably) not at fault. If this were an isolated event it should in fact be relatively simple to gloss over.

Unfortunately though, the timing of the incident came at possibly the worst moment, when the Pacers org are trying their best to reach out to fans already turned off by past events.

The likely result of this route then, is that the new ad campaign will lose its effectiveness, fans will continue to be disenchanted, and the average attendance will be as bad or worse than last year's.

2) Token punishment of all the players involved - TPTB can probably justify some fine or light suspension for "conduct detrimental to the team". This action is basically to assuage the public outcry. This won't sit well with the players though. They can (with justice) feel that TPTB aren't protecting them enough.

This might go over well with the ticket-buying public, but Messrs. Jackson, Tinsley, and Daniels definitely won't be happy, and maybe other players sympathise with them as well. This can't be good for chemistry.

3) Pin the blame on a scapegoat - Fair or not, most of the outrage centers on Stephen Jackson. He wasn't well-liked in the first place, and being involved in this incident certainly hasn't helped him. TPTB might go to extremes like a lengthy suspension or buying out his contract, but more likely they'll just trade him elsewhere. A trade might indeed look like the best solution, because it's not really penalizing Jackson, and in fact it might really be best for both sides to start anew.

Trading damaged goods is never easy though. Pacers would have to take back an albatross contract or an equally controversial player, neither of which is appealing. And if TPTB wait as long as they did for the Artest trade, then I don't see how this would help much.

4) Some brilliant move I didn't think of. There's a reason that TPTB are professional managers and I'm not - perhaps they could come up with something better. But the past 2 years history hasn't been promising.

naptown
10-08-2006, 12:13 AM
First, I dont think the players deserve any kind of punishment at all.

Second, based on the facts that are coming out, I dont think Pacer management can do a thing punishment wise without violating aspects of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Teams have to abide by the terms of the CBA, they cant just do as they please.

ABADays
10-08-2006, 12:16 AM
Naptown is right. There is nothing they can do other than try to weather this and make the best of it.

BoomBaby33
10-08-2006, 12:28 AM
If cutting Jack was just a matter of paying his salary, cutting him would be an easy decision. But, if you release Jackson now, you will also have his salary counting against the team's salary cap and luxury tax totals for the rest of his long contract. That is not a good deal for the Pacers as the team would be seriously hampered in its effort to build a team. Something else needs to be done.

You make a good point - i didnt think about the cap issues for the next 3-4 years. Damn guaranteed contracts. Look what the Colts just did to Corey Simon. He had a "non-football related injury" and they just plain cut him basically. Now they dont have to pay his salary.

What if the Pacers just buy out his contract, does that count against the cap?

The Pacers PR department have to be pulling their hair completely out about now. Not to mention the SIMONS!

Lord Helmet
10-08-2006, 12:35 AM
I put fine or suspend, but I agree, you really can't.

Just hope for the best.

vapacersfan
10-08-2006, 12:38 AM
Have a talk with all of the guys about making a stupid decision (being out at 3AM at a club during a work week).

Other then that, let this blow over and let these guys prove themselves on the basketball court.

BoomBaby33
10-08-2006, 12:39 AM
After reading that Jackson fired the first shot in the air as the car was bearing down on him, I have to say that there should not be any fine or suspension what so ever. The man was trying to save his own life.

These guys ran into some total losers. Yes you can argue all you want that they shouldnt have been there in the first place, but once you are put into a position that your life is in jeopardy you have to protect yourself.

By every account they did nothing wrong while at the club nor did anything to instigate this. They even tried walking away to avoid any problems. But when people wont let you walk away then it is no longer your choice.... and you should not be getting fined, suspended or attacked by the public who refuse to see this the way it is.

I agree with you 110%. Hell yeah, if id been in that situation, I probably would had a similar reaction. But im not a professional athlete.

However, i do have to uphold a good reputation for my company even outside of the work atmosphere, because I work in a professional business that tries to sell a product. If one of my clients sees me getting a dui or something like that, I guarantee, hes going elsewhere for business.

Furthermore, these guys are the face of the Pacers. And this is what the Pacers are trying to sell. Im not buying it now! Unless the TPTB do something severe themselves to save face.

naptown
10-08-2006, 12:45 AM
I agree with you 110%. Hell yeah, if id been in that situation, I probably would had a similar reaction. But im not a professional athlete.

However, i do have to uphold a good reputation for my company even outside of the work atmosphere, because I work in a professional business that tries to sell a product. If one of my clients sees me getting a dui or something like that, I guarantee, hes going elsewhere for business.

Furthermore, these guys are the face of the Pacers. And this is what the Pacers are trying to sell. Im not buying it now! Unless the TPTB do something severe themselves to save face.

So what you are saying is if you are out in public and some guy starts crap with you, and you try to walk away, and the guy keeps coming after you, punches you, tries to run you over with their car..... you did something wrong? You did something your company would be upset at you for?

To be perfectly honest if this incident would have happened to anyone other than a pro athlete the person firing the gun and fighting off the thugs would be getting applauded.

wintermute
10-08-2006, 01:17 AM
Second, based on the facts that are coming out, I dont think Pacer management can do a thing punishment wise without violating aspects of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Teams have to abide by the terms of the CBA, they cant just do as they please.

artest's suspension last year complies with the cba. he was suspended with pay, but everyone still regarded it as punishment.

so i think that option still stands.

ajbry
10-08-2006, 01:28 AM
Have a talk with all of the guys about making a stupid decision (being out at 3AM at a club during a work week).

Other then that, let this blow over and let these guys prove themselves on the basketball court.

For once, I actually agree with you. :-o

Jose Slaughter
10-08-2006, 01:31 AM
I voted for "trade Jackson" but I doubt anyother team in the league would take him.

Then we would still be stuck with Tinsley too.

The only other option is waivers & to be honest, if it means getting these ******** off this team, then by all means.......... waive 'em!

ROCislandWarrior
10-08-2006, 01:36 AM
Poll near the bottom,read this if you really want to find out WHY...

Almost every important decision in life can be labeled as being in the "gray" area. For us Pacers fans, we have long outlived that notion/privilage depending upon your view point.

For me, spending 9+ hours on the road, including the mericless Chicago traffic, to witness my favorite team play in their very own state of the art arena every year has heavily influenced what some may call the "rash" of my decision.

That is why I am calling everyone across the entire Pacers nation out with a simple choice that must be made.

Against all of their marks, the brawl, the attitude problems and the gun shots...

Let us remember the ENTIRE campaign this offseason including 11 new faces...the genious letting go twist of the sharp shooter nearest to Reggie (IMO this proves why Reggie is #1 by a landslide) to obtain Hurricane Harrington and I won't even mention the extensive local marketing campaign that was undergone to such an extent that you all bled it so much even Pacers fans felt it in Milwaukee 265 miles away.

If you don't understand the MAGNITUDE of the following question then please do not vote because this is an issue... ... I just hope the higher powers pay attention to the real fans opinions: (I think we know more about success on the court than they will ever give us credit for.)

Should we trade these two?


To the surprise of many...I say NO!

If Walsh truly believed that he wasn't feeding us a line of BS when he helped the extensive marketing campaign...then he understands the situation.

I will leave it at that... it is really that simple. A question of integrity.

Now it is up to us

sweabs
10-08-2006, 01:45 AM
I hear Devin Brown is available?

Oh - sorry. That's going to offend someone.

naptown
10-08-2006, 01:46 AM
I voted for "trade Jackson" but I doubt anyother team in the league would take him.

Then we would still be stuck with Tinsley too.

The only other option is waivers & to be honest, if it means getting these ******** off this team, then by all means.......... waive 'em!

Yeah that makes a ton of sense. Jax has 4 years left and Tins five on their contracts.... that we would still have to pay them and would still count against the salary cap. That is 12-14 million counted against the cap every year for the next 4 years. Be realistic.

wintermute
10-08-2006, 01:47 AM
I voted for "trade Jackson" but I doubt anyother team in the league would take him.

Then we would still be stuck with Tinsley too.

The only other option is waivers & to be honest, if it means getting these ******** off this team, then by all means.......... waive 'em!

i thought about putting more trade away options in the poll, but on the other hand it can't be too good for the pacers to be revamping lineups at this late stage.

not saying that others involved won't be traded later, but it seems to me that if TPTB were to choose to get rid of a player as damage control, that player will be s jax.

naptown
10-08-2006, 01:58 AM
artest's suspension last year complies with the cba. he was suspended with pay, but everyone still regarded it as punishment.

so i think that option still stands.

What happened with Artest was not a suspension. He was simply placed on the inactive list every game. Also, Artest's actions were related to basketball in and of itself.

This incident has nothing to do with basketball, they broke no laws nor violated any team rules.

So what is the point in punishing someone under those circumstances? For doing nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As I said in another thread, if this incident would have happened to anyone other than a pro athlete they would be getting applauded for fighting off some violent thugs.

D-BONE
10-08-2006, 08:08 AM
I'll say this yet again. Based on the fact about the incident, none of these guys deserve punishment in this instance. What can they be punished for? Bad judgment as so many seem to be saying? Because they've done nothing else remotely wrong according to the law and all information the authorities have put forward to now.

Policing bad judgment is an impossibility. First it has to be decided what "bad" is. In who's terms? And so on and so forth. If the Pacers had significant written stipulations agreed to by these guys in contractual form, such as not permissible to carry firearms, not permissible to go to strip clubs, not permissible to be out past a set hour during training camp, etc., then punishment options would be quite different.

As far as I know everything they did was acceptable according to the rules and laws of the team, league, and society. If you don't like Jack and want him gone, I think the pre-Club Rio rationale is enough to make your case.

I don't think you can add this as another supporting argument to your thesis, however, because he really didn't do anything this time that rationally warrants more wrath. It's easy to add this to his laundry list of scapegoat screw-ups, but it's not applicable or particularly fair IMO.

naptown
10-08-2006, 10:20 AM
I don't think you can add this as another supporting argument to your thesis, however, because he really didn't do anything this time that rationally warrants more wrath. It's easy to add this to his laundry list of scapegoat screw-ups, but it's not applicable or particularly fair IMO.

Great post, but rational is a quality that many here seem to be lacking. That or they are just very selective when you using that quality.

ChicagoJ
10-08-2006, 06:25 PM
I'll say this yet again. Based on the fact about the incident, none of these guys deserve punishment in this instance. What can they be punished for? Bad judgment as so many seem to be saying? Because they've done nothing else remotely wrong according to the law and all information the authorities have put forward to now.

Policing bad judgment is an impossibility. First it has to be decided what "bad" is. In who's terms? And so on and so forth. If the Pacers had significant written stipulations agreed to by these guys in contractual form, such as not permissible to carry firearms, not permissible to go to strip clubs, not permissible to be out past a set hour during training camp, etc., then punishment options would be quite different.

As far as I know everything they did was acceptable according to the rules and laws of the team, league, and society. If you don't like Jack and want him gone, I think the pre-Club Rio rationale is enough to make your case.

I don't think you can add this as another supporting argument to your thesis, however, because he really didn't do anything this time that rationally warrants more wrath. It's easy to add this to his laundry list of scapegoat screw-ups, but it's not applicable or particularly fair IMO.

I said this somewhere else recently (don't remember where now), but I've been in favor of getting rid of Jackson since the day he arrived (I didn't want to trade for him in the first place as I already didn't like what I'd seen from him in SA and Atlanta.

This is like one more rain drop in the ocean, as far as he's concerned.

At least we've got a basketball replacement for him. Oh wait, Daniels was there too. Crap. So much for that theory.

As long as we keep having discusions about "should the team police bad judgment" or "does the coach need to tell these guys *how* to act professional, we're going to underachieve.

We've still got a very immature team on and off the court.

And while its not politically correct to say this, its pretty obvious we also have a very stupid team.

BlueNGold
10-08-2006, 07:29 PM
I wouldn't suspend them.

I'd get rid of Jackson at all costs - I don't care if you get a box of Cracker Jack sans toy prize for him - enough is enough.

This is Tinsley's first offense but he still should know better. Rick and Bird need to have a conversation.

Daniels and Snap (who was never making the team anyway) get a pass for being newcomers though they still need to have a conversation.

But with Jackson, enough is enough. There are strip clubs in Indy for celebs - places where they'll valet park your car, security is TIGHT, they bring you cute little drinks that cost $15, etc. People don't blow famous people crap there.

Just poor judgment - and he's shown a more than disturbing pattern of that. He needs to be gone by Oct 31 even if Indy buys him out.

That might be a little strong only because I really would like to get something in return for Jack. Otherwise, I2I.

Charcoal Filtered
10-09-2006, 01:00 AM
What legal ground do the Pacers have to stand on? It is definitely embarrassing, but you reap what you sow. Stephen Jackson was not going to stop being Stephen Jackson once he put on a Pacer uniform.

A fine or suspension does nothing to solve this problem or fix future issues. A trade would though.