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Hoop
09-21-2006, 04:21 PM
I heard this today from someone that knows people on the "inside". We are currently trying to trade Jackson for Maggette. I'm not one of the Jackson haters, but I'd love to have Maggette in his place. Take it for what it's worth, I have no idea if it's true.

pizza guy
09-21-2006, 04:23 PM
Don't be playing with my head, son! I would feel REALLY good about this offseason if we pulled that out of our rear's.

It seems really strange to hear this right after the Q&A thing - but then again, many have said that was just PR. It could have been PR after all, but directed towards the league, and not the fans. Strange, but stranger things have happened.

Putnam
09-21-2006, 04:27 PM
My heart is racing so fast right now it's ridiculous.

I have total confidence in unnamed people "on the inside" and have never known them to mislead.

OK, Hoop. This your rumor. Get 'er done.

Hoo-ee.

SoupIsGood
09-21-2006, 04:29 PM
Holy cow, oh please please please let it be true.

Lord Helmet
09-21-2006, 04:31 PM
Please God.

Hoop, you're a respected poster to me, so I know you're not trying to spread crap. We can all just hope it's true.

pizza guy
09-21-2006, 04:31 PM
SIG, I think I will forever imagine that you sound like Harry Carey, now.

"Holy cow!"

GET 'ER DONE, DONNIE!! BRING US MAGS!!

ajbry
09-21-2006, 04:32 PM
:censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:

SoupIsGood
09-21-2006, 04:33 PM
Holyyyy Coowwwww

FrenchConnection
09-21-2006, 04:33 PM
Do it Donnie! Except I would rather have a shooter.

Los Angeles
09-21-2006, 04:34 PM
I always worry that a "leak" will cause a potential deal to die. I've always felt that way, and then last year during the whole Ron thing my worries were confirmed.

Please don't run with this, PD, please don't spread it around with glee or anticipation. Let it die. Let it go. Let it go through without any interference.

My silly superstitions demand it of you! ;)

owl
09-21-2006, 04:38 PM
:censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:


You have little to worry about.

PacerMan
09-21-2006, 04:38 PM
hmmm. We were going to trade Ron Artest for him before but now they're going to settle for Stephen Jackson instead... right................. LOL

pizza guy
09-21-2006, 04:41 PM
Don't crush my hopes and dreams just yet.

sportsmusicxboxpacer
09-21-2006, 04:45 PM
ILL SAY DO IT!

Roy Munson
09-21-2006, 04:52 PM
Why on Earth would the Clippers do that?

ajbry
09-21-2006, 04:53 PM
Why on Earth would the Clippers do that?

Maybe because Jack's a good player?

Shocking to some of you, I know.

Hoop
09-21-2006, 05:01 PM
Please God.

Hoop, you're a respected poster to me, so I know you're not trying to spread crap. We can all just hope it's true.
Thanks. I debated with myself if I should say anything. It took me 10 minutes to push the post button after I typed it, but I just had to tell someone. I've never posted any kind of rumor before. I take the Pacers very seriously, this will be my 20th year as a season ticket holder.

lumber man
09-21-2006, 05:01 PM
Maybe because Jack's a good player?

Shocking to some of you, I know.
That's right, I hope this isn't true.

Los Angeles
09-21-2006, 05:06 PM
SERIOUS QUESTION:

Hoop, from your post, it sounds like this is something that the Pacers want to do. From what you know, can you confirm that there has been any sort of discussion between the teams?

JayRedd
09-21-2006, 05:16 PM
I'm pretty excited about the beard.....But I'd rather have the better player. Count me among the ecstatic if this has any chance of actually happening.

Isaac
09-21-2006, 05:17 PM
Yeah right. :lol2:

Not going to happen.

RON ARTEST
09-21-2006, 05:18 PM
:laugh: why would the clippers want two chucker with mobley and jackson? do you guys honestly think this is true? of course the pacers want to do the deal but do the clippers is the question.

miller31
09-21-2006, 05:19 PM
OMG This is to good to be true!!!! YES! Could Jackson finally be gone!

I dont care who we get, just get him and his crap out of INDIANA!

YES!! PLEASE GOD LET THIS HAPPEN!

JJ DYNOBYTE
09-21-2006, 05:32 PM
Count me ecstatic,if there is any way in hell this happens!

Shade
09-21-2006, 05:35 PM
No way this happens.

JJ DYNOBYTE
09-21-2006, 05:39 PM
I'll cross my fingers,but I won't hold my breath.

Moses
09-21-2006, 05:41 PM
I consider this in the realm of possibility simply because of the fact that the Clippers would like Magette to be a 6th man alot of the time and Magette sure as hell doesn't want that. I know he'd enjoy coming to the Pacers because he would be the first scoring option here along with JO.

Fireball Kid
09-21-2006, 05:41 PM
:bs2:

Hicks
09-21-2006, 05:43 PM
I'll cross my fingers,but I won't hold my breath.

Exactly right.

Isaac
09-21-2006, 05:49 PM
I consider this in the realm of possibility simply because of the fact that the Clippers would like Magette to be a 6th man alot of the time and Magette sure as hell doesn't want that. I know he'd enjoy coming to the Pacers because he would be the first scoring option here along with JO.

Ok, but give one good reason why the Clippers would want Jack?

Hoop
09-21-2006, 05:50 PM
SERIOUS QUESTION:

Hoop, from your post, it sounds like this is something that the Pacers want to do. From what you know, can you confirm that there has been any sort of discussion between the teams?Sorry, I can't confirm anything, It's just a rumor at this point.

It didn't take long, I already regret posting anything about it.

Anthem
09-21-2006, 05:50 PM
Agree with the other skeptics. Obviously we'd take it if the Clippers would, but I don't see it happening.

That may be something we've offered the Clippers, but it's not something they're offering us.

I wish.

indyman37
09-21-2006, 06:07 PM
I don't see anything bad about this rumored trade. But I could have sworn that Bird said he planned to enter Training Camp with the 18 current players on our roster. And that they felt comfortable with it.

Lord Helmet
09-21-2006, 06:08 PM
Sorry, I can't confirm anything, It's just a rumor at this point.

It didn't take long, I already regret posting anything about it.
Hey, its something to talk about during the wait for camp....

Will Galen
09-21-2006, 06:11 PM
I believe what hoop is telling us. The Pacer's are trying to get Mags for Jax. Getting it done is something else though.

Mags makes $7 million, and Jax makes $6,120,000. That would work by itself, however the Clippers will want a little more and we have a lot of guys with potential. We would probably add Powell, Marshall, Edwards, Green, or Hunter without a thought. Probably add any two of them.

However if the Clippers want Granger, Harrison, White, or Williams, to go along with Jax there probably won't be a trade.

And we have to remember, it's the off season and we are looking to get better so the Pacers no doubt have other irons in the fire.

Mags gets hurt about as much as Tinsley though. Only twice in his 7 year career has he played more than 70 games, with 77 being the high. And as someone else mentioned, we need a shooter. This rumor would be okay, but it doesn't blow me away.

Unclebuck
09-21-2006, 06:25 PM
I'd include Harrison to get this deal done, and I'd probably trade either White or Williams, you can't miss what you never had. I wouldn't include Granger unless we can get Livingston, but that is a pipe dream. (In fact I'd trade anyone on our roster for Livingston)

Frank Slade
09-21-2006, 06:39 PM
Like some have already echoed, I am fairly certain Indiana is interested in aquiring Maggette, dependant on their actual asking price.

I thought the deal breaker last time was the concern on his foot. Has that changed ? Maybe Kaufman can chime in.:cool:

imawhat
09-21-2006, 06:41 PM
This deal would have to include someone else, I'd think. Didn't Walsh say they wouldn't take on any more $? In order for that to happen someone else would need to be included.

I'm interested to see what happens.

Jer_Freak
09-21-2006, 06:41 PM
Yawn

imawhat
09-21-2006, 06:41 PM
Like some have already echoed, I am fairly certain Indiana is interested in aquiring Maggette, dependant on their actual asking price.

I thought the deal breaker last time was the concern on his foot. Has that changed ? Maybe Kaufman can chime in.:cool:


AFAIK, that was the deal-breaker.

NorCal_Pacerfan
09-21-2006, 06:42 PM
I doubt this happens and I'd still rather trade Tinsley first. Jax is one of our last remaining 3 shooters.

Jer_Freak
09-21-2006, 06:44 PM
Of COURSE we'll trade Jackson for Maggette but the Clippers will not!!!

CableKC
09-21-2006, 06:50 PM
See...this is what we all needed in the Dog-Days of the offseason before Pre-season starts.....a juicy rumor that's too good to be true.

We all could wish this happens.....but I doubt it. Cuz the universe hates Pacer fans...and nothing like this would ever happen.

But I think mainly cuz of Sterling's reluctance to commit 7+ mil to a player like SJax for 3+ more years while trying to figure out a way to clear salary so that they can offer as much of a contract so that they can offer Chris Kaman the type of contract that he's likely to get next season without paying significantly going over the Luxury Tax.

IMHO.....if Maggette is traded...it will be before the trade deadline...and for an expiring 2006-2007 contract.

The only way that I can see this happening is if the Clippers ( much like the Pacers ) were desperate to move Maggette but found that they were not getting any decent bites given his injury concerns and would be willing to take on SJax if it meant getting rid of Maggette. But again....the universe hates Pacer fans...so I doubt it would happen.

CableKC
09-21-2006, 06:55 PM
I doubt this happens and I'd still rather trade Tinsley first. Jax is one of our last remaining 3pt scorers.

Fixed.

A 42%-FG / 34%-3pt% / 78%-FT percentage does not qualify as a shooter....he's a good scorer...but not IMHO a "shooter" by any means.

But to your point...he's one of our last remaining 3pt scorers ( but IMHO not a 3pt shooter )....something that Maggette isn't really good at.

Kaufman
09-21-2006, 07:27 PM
Like some have already echoed, I am fairly certain Indiana is interested in aquiring Maggette, dependant on their actual asking price.

I thought the deal breaker last time was the concern on his foot. Has that changed ? Maybe Kaufman can chime in.:cool:

Thanks for the invite into the conversation... though my credibility is fairly shot at this point!

As far as the trade goes, I don't know anything of this trade in particular but that's not to say its not being discussed - I just don't know anything about it. My own thoughts would be that I don't know what would compel the Clippers to do this trade at this point - given the fact that Maggette was being mentioned for Ron Artest he probably has more trade worth than Stephen Jackson alone. As someone else has mentioned, Maggette does have an injury riddled career so that might play some small role in this.

With regards to the deal breaker last time - the player in question simply could not participate and pass the physical exam. I don't think this would be the case at this time though.

Eindar
09-21-2006, 07:32 PM
I have no doubt the Pacers are tring to trade Jackson for Maggette. I have serious doubts that the Clippers are listening.

ChicagoJ
09-21-2006, 07:40 PM
I don't see anything bad about this rumored trade. But I could have sworn that Bird said he planned to enter Training Camp with the 18 current players on our roster. And that they felt comfortable with it.

That's a pretty good indicator that something is in the works but TPTB are trying to put a little extra heat on the other team to meet our demands.

mboyle1313
09-21-2006, 08:29 PM
Fellow Hoop Afficianados,

I ask this question, not to be obtuse, but because I truly am puzzled.

Why does anyone feel the need to post rumors? Is it to show you have "inside knowledge"? Is it because they are fun to talk about? Is there something there I just don't see?

I understand the appeal of discussing a team or a matchup as actually constructed, but anything else seems like a waste of time to me.

Baffled,
MJB

Lord Helmet
09-21-2006, 08:34 PM
Fellow Hoop Afficianados,

I ask this question, not to be obtuse, but because I truly am puzzled.

Why does anyone feel the need to post rumors? Is it to show you have "inside knowledge"? Is it because they are fun to talk about? Is there something there I just don't see?

I understand the appeal of discussing a team or a matchup as actually constructed, but anything else seems like a waste of time to me.

Baffled,
MJB
It's something to talk about, and exciting if it actually happens....

skyfire
09-21-2006, 08:43 PM
Fellow Hoop Afficianados,

I ask this question, not to be obtuse, but because I truly am puzzled.

Why does anyone feel the need to post rumors? Is it to show you have "inside knowledge"? Is it because they are fun to talk about? Is there something there I just don't see?

I understand the appeal of discussing a team or a matchup as actually constructed, but anything else seems like a waste of time to me.

Baffled,
MJB

http://sjl-static9.sjl.youtube.com/vi/Z1M1Do7-B1o/2.jpg

bulldog
09-21-2006, 08:47 PM
Fellow Hoop Afficianados,

I ask this question, not to be obtuse, but because I truly am puzzled.

Why does anyone feel the need to post rumors? Is it to show you have "inside knowledge"? Is it because they are fun to talk about? Is there something there I just don't see?

I understand the appeal of discussing a team or a matchup as actually constructed, but anything else seems like a waste of time to me.

Baffled,
MJB
Reason in bold. You never had any trouble keeping secrets? You're a better man than me, my friend.

I would do Harrison+Jax for Maggette if that's what it came down to.

edit: never mind, that's dumb.

McKeyFan
09-21-2006, 09:09 PM
Fellow Hoop Afficianados,

I ask this question, not to be obtuse, but because I truly am puzzled.

Why does anyone feel the need to post rumors? Is it to show you have "inside knowledge"? Is it because they are fun to talk about? Is there something there I just don't see?

I understand the appeal of discussing a team or a matchup as actually constructed, but anything else seems like a waste of time to me.

Baffled,
MJB

Ever heard of an industry called "The News"?

rexnom
09-21-2006, 09:12 PM
I'd include Harrison to get this deal done, and I'd probably trade either White or Williams, you can't miss what you never had. I wouldn't include Granger unless we can get Livingston, but that is a pipe dream. (In fact I'd trade anyone on our roster for Livingston)
The Clippers would never trade Livingston. Kid absolutely amazes me, though.

Eindar
09-21-2006, 09:17 PM
Fellow Hoop Afficianados,

I ask this question, not to be obtuse, but because I truly am puzzled.

Why does anyone feel the need to post rumors? Is it to show you have "inside knowledge"? Is it because they are fun to talk about? Is there something there I just don't see?

I understand the appeal of discussing a team or a matchup as actually constructed, but anything else seems like a waste of time to me.

Baffled,
MJB


Thank you! This is why I have a rule about putting folks on ignore who feel the need to get everyone worked up with a trade rumor that rarely (if ever) shakes out. I don't mind the occasional "I heard something" post, but with the offseason we've had where everyone knowns someone, yet nobody knows anything, you better list some facts, including at least a vague description of who you know and how they got their info, or you'll find yourself on my ignore list. I'm not saying that Hoop qualifies in this instance, because he's revised his statement to say that he has no idea if this will happen or not, it's just a rumor. I'm just sharing my method for dealing with these attention mongers, as they crop up.

McKeyFan
09-21-2006, 09:17 PM
Let me list every possible, crazy reason I can think of that the Clips would do that trade (because I'm dying to see it happen but nearly certain it won't):

- There are aspects to Maggette's game that aren't as good as Jax: defense comes to mind.

- Like we are fed up with Tins, perhaps they are fed up with Maggette and willing to trade for a kucklehead who shows up for work every day.

- The P's are sweetening this deal in a way we don't know about that makes the trade worthwhile.

- The Clips are very worried that a sixth-man Maggette situation could really hurt the chemistry of a team that is improving rapidly (and did pretty well, IIRC, when Maggette was injured).

- Those not as close to the situation as Pacers fans don't appreciate what a knucklehead Jackson is (but I doubt it).

- Although Maggette may pass a physical, Clipper brass either have other inside knowledge or just intuition that Maggette's foot problem is likely to get much worse.

- Donnie has something up his sleave similar to his promise to the Hornets to vote in favor of a franchise [/conspiracy mode off].

bulldog
09-21-2006, 09:23 PM
- There are aspects to Maggette's game that aren't as good as Jax: defense comes to mind.



:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

rexnom
09-21-2006, 09:24 PM
I really don't think this is an unfair trade. Jack is a much better player than people give him credit for. I'm kind of wondering whether this is a trade WE would want to do. Say what you will about Jack but the man plays, scores, shoots threes, and is a great defender. I really think that he will be a new player this year. And am I the only one worried about Corey Maggette's injury history?

McKeyFan
09-21-2006, 09:32 PM
How bout this starting five?

Daniels
Maggette
Granger
Harrington
O'Neil

vapacersfan
09-21-2006, 09:41 PM
Thank you! This is why I have a rule about putting folks on ignore who feel the need to get everyone worked up with a trade rumor that rarely (if ever) shakes out. I don't mind the occasional "I heard something" post, but with the offseason we've had where everyone knowns someone, yet nobody knows anything, you better list some facts, including at least a vague description of who you know and how they got their info, or you'll find yourself on my ignore list. I'm not saying that Hoop qualifies in this instance, because he's revised his statement to say that he has no idea if this will happen or not, it's just a rumor. I'm just sharing my method for dealing with these attention mongers, as they crop up.

I know others have commented on this "rule" of your before, but I just find it funny you actually still are willing to admit to doing this.

You do realize people work for organizations, and many organizations, esp. pro sports teams, and dealing possible movues almost every day. I have a good friend who worked for the Wizards front office last summer, and he said it was like Fantasy Basketball. Every day someone else was being mentioned in a trade, most of which never happened but the Wizards always wanted to see what was available.

Of course, you can do whatever you want, I just think its funny you want someone to be able to tell you what they know, but be 110% corect or else they go on ignore.
__________

As for your question Mr.Boyle, I think you can see where people are coming from. Part of the beauty of a message board is you can discuss anything, literally. I do think you may have a few people from time to time that may want to "impress" others with their "inside connections", but most people who do have those connections are smart enough to know they can burn a bridge really fast by running their mouth.

I have never been one to get worked up over any of these rumors, but I would be lying if I said I didnt enjoy hearing them from time to time. If nothing else, it gives us something to talk about.
___________

As for this perticular rumor, I would just be so thrilled to see S-Jax out of town. The only thing better would be if it were a package deal involving Tinsley and Jackson....

D-BONE
09-21-2006, 09:45 PM
Not sure why people are getting so excited about this. Not just the rumor part either. Compare the two. Is Maggette a clearly better player? I don't think so. Play/talent: Mags hasn't proven he's that superior to Jack. Maybe a little at best. Attitude: Mags is not walk in the park per his history. Injuries: Jack has been clearly more durable.

brichard
09-21-2006, 09:50 PM
Fellow Hoop Afficianados,

I ask this question, not to be obtuse, but because I truly am puzzled.

Why does anyone feel the need to post rumors? Is it to show you have "inside knowledge"? Is it because they are fun to talk about? Is there something there I just don't see?

I understand the appeal of discussing a team or a matchup as actually constructed, but anything else seems like a waste of time to me.

Baffled,
MJB

MJB,

I don't ever post rumors b/c I frankly don't have the time or interest that some folks here do to check out all the other boards. I also don't have any inside sources. I did have a pretty close one to IU at one time, but that relationship is pretty distant now.

However, I do think it is fun to hear about rumors that actually have a chance of happening. When they are so one sided in terms of talent and/or the salary cap numbers don't work... those I just find annoying. I find those rumors about as pleasant as the ridiculous E-mail chains that get sent to me. You know, the ones that state that a kid will get a penny per E-mail from the American Cancer Society. People never think about the fact that since they aren't copying the Society that nobody is going to know it was forwarded to anybody anyway. Let alone the fact that it would be so cruel to say "Sorry Tommy, but in order to get the surgery you need to send out a 1 million e-mail chain." People sometimes just don't think.

But many of the Pacer acquisitions I have heard about came here first. The Chicago trade for Miller/Artest etc. was out in the public way before it ever became official. There are some people, ie Kauffman, who have very good information that I do believe.

Ah well, just my take.

Peace,
brichard

SoupIsGood
09-21-2006, 09:52 PM
Mags is easily a better player

aero
09-21-2006, 09:56 PM
rumor, fact whatever you wanna call it...im happy this thread came along because it gives us all news/gossip to talk about while we wait for the preseason to start up...as of late there hasnt been much to talk about in Pacer land. I welcome threads like theres it sparks good discussions :)

As for what i think about this juicy info, Its a cool rumor that id love to see but i really dont realisticly see the Clipps wanting Jackson. It could happen im not doubting that but i just dont see it happening.

aceace
09-21-2006, 09:59 PM
I don't see anything bad about this rumored trade. But I could have sworn that Bird said he planned to enter Training Camp with the 18 current players on our roster. And that they felt comfortable with it.Birds also a well known bu--shi---, I don't see this deal happening. Magette overall is a better player. Why would clips do this.

Pacerfan06
09-21-2006, 10:00 PM
lets get real....jack is a waaaay better player than maggette






(play along;)

Trader Joe
09-21-2006, 10:21 PM
I heard we were trading Tinsely for Hinrich too. :bs:

McKeyFan
09-21-2006, 10:21 PM
lets get real....jack is a waaaay better player than maggette

Agreed.

Maybe if they throw in Elton Brand we could part with Jax.

Trader Joe
09-21-2006, 10:22 PM
Or wait I know I'm lait to get in on the thread, buuuuuut have we thought that maybe we are giving up Shawne or DH too??? I think the Clipps would almost certainly do a Jack and DH for Magz deal

JayRedd
09-21-2006, 10:44 PM
Say what you will about Jack but the man plays, scores, shoots threes, and is a great defender.

Seriously?

I must be missing something.

pizza guy
09-21-2006, 10:48 PM
At this point, I don't really care if the rumor is valid or not. It's fun to talk about; especially since it centers on getting rid of Jackson.

Though, I have to say this: the proposals that say, "I'd throw in Harrison," are so wrong. Not only is SJax a slightly better shooter than Maggs, thus the Pacers lose even more in the department - but Maggs is NOT A CENTER! Do you realize how little sense it makes to trade away maybe our two best options for their positions to get back a player that doesn't fill the needs left behind?

Our best option at 2, our best depth at 5? For a guy that doesn't really fill the shooting need that this team has? I'll pass.

Maggs for Jack straigh-up? Sure. Even Maggs for Jack and filler. Harrison is more than filler - he's our best backup 5.

pantsfish
09-21-2006, 10:50 PM
I really doubt it's true, but if it is that's really awesome. I'd gladly give up Jack and Williams/White/Snap/Powell (only one) for a player of Mags' caliber -- a court with him, Al, and JO would be pretty ****ing tough in my opinion.

McKeyFan
09-21-2006, 10:55 PM
Let's not forget that every trade we ever do, at least it seems to me, is always preceded by a rumor thread--usually several--on this board.

Whenever a trade goes down, the first place you hear about is here.

That's why we love rumor threads.

Anthem
09-21-2006, 10:55 PM
Mags is easily a better player
Word to your uncle.

rexnom
09-21-2006, 10:57 PM
Seriously?

I must be missing something.
I am totally serious. I've always considered Jack a great defender. Maybe I just am WAY off here but he has always seemed, to me at least, as being one of our best defenders.

Isaac
09-21-2006, 11:06 PM
I am totally serious. I've always considered Jack a great defender. Maybe I just am WAY off here but he has always seemed, to me at least, as being one of our best defenders.

You're correct. Jack is a solid perimiter defender, for the most part.

Maggs was a good defender early in his career, but seems to have diminished a LOT.

JayRedd
09-21-2006, 11:07 PM
I am totally serious. I've always considered Jack a great defender. Maybe I just am WAY off here but he has always seemed, to me at least, as being one of our best defenders.

Well he has been one of OUR best. But that's not really the greatest bunch to compare against...aside from Ron, we've had pretty ****-poor defensive perimeter players for some time.

Tinsley is/was average at best, Reg was pretty awful in his last couple of years and never better than "heady", AJ is slow, Freddie was average on the ball and pretty bad off it, Peja and Sarunas are disasters, James Jones got exploited routinely, Jalen never really tried his last couple years, Baby Al was pretty okay but better in the post as I remember it.....

So yeah, he's been our 2nd best perimeter defender since what? 2002?

But that's not saying a lot....And I fully admit that he was a lot better in his first year here. But I don't know if it was the extra offensive burden or just a deterioration of efforts/skill/quickness.....but he's been decidely average the last two years, IMO.

McKeyFan
09-21-2006, 11:27 PM
Well he has been one of OUR best. But that's not really the greatest bunch to compare against...aside from Ron, we've had pretty ****-poor defensive perimeter players for some time.

Tinsley is/was average at best, Reg was pretty awful in his last couple of years and never better than "heady", AJ is slow, Freddie was average on the ball and pretty bad off it, Peja and Sarunas are disasters, James Jones got exploited routinely, Jalen never really tried his last couple years, Baby Al was pretty okay but better in the post as I remember it.....

So yeah, he's been our 2nd best perimeter defender since what? 2002?

But that's not saying a lot....And I fully admit that he was a lot better in his first year here. But I don't know if it was the extra offensive burden or just a deterioration of efforts/skill/quickness.....but he's been decidely average the last two years, IMO.

You are laying down some hard truth there.

I agree with most of it, although I have a higher view of James Jones's D, especially in his playoff run before we traded him.

Also, you forget Granger (but he's brand new, which is why you probably left him out.) If you go back a ways, Derrick McKey was doggone good. ;)

Eindar
09-21-2006, 11:33 PM
I know others have commented on this "rule" of your before, but I just find it funny you actually still are willing to admit to doing this.

You do realize people work for organizations, and many organizations, esp. pro sports teams, and dealing possible movues almost every day. I have a good friend who worked for the Wizards front office last summer, and he said it was like Fantasy Basketball. Every day someone else was being mentioned in a trade, most of which never happened but the Wizards always wanted to see what was available.

Of course, you can do whatever you want, I just think its funny you want someone to be able to tell you what they know, but be 110% corect or else they go on ignore.
__________

As for your question Mr.Boyle, I think you can see where people are coming from. Part of the beauty of a message board is you can discuss anything, literally. I do think you may have a few people from time to time that may want to "impress" others with their "inside connections", but most people who do have those connections are smart enough to know they can burn a bridge really fast by running their mouth.

I have never been one to get worked up over any of these rumors, but I would be lying if I said I didnt enjoy hearing them from time to time. If nothing else, it gives us something to talk about.
___________

As for this perticular rumor, I would just be so thrilled to see S-Jax out of town. The only thing better would be if it were a package deal involving Tinsley and Jackson....

That's exactly right. I want them to either come out and say "This probably won't happen" or, if they are going to say "Pacers are doing such and such on Monday, count on it", be 1000% certain that it WILL indeed happen. I don't mind people coming on here and saying, "hey, I have a friend who works closely with the Pacers, and he overheard that the Pacers are having talks with (insert team here) about (insert player here). I have no idea if it will happen, but I thought you should know".

What I have a problem with is what we had a rash of this summer, and that's, "Pacers are going to sign Bonzi/Al/Brad Miller/Michael Jordan this (insert day of the week), book it, written in stone, no I can't say absolutely anything about my source, because the slightest mention of his eye color or general field of work might cause him to get fired. Just believe me without a shred of evidence or prior experience."

bulldog
09-21-2006, 11:35 PM
Though, I have to say this: the proposals that say, "I'd throw in Harrison," are so wrong.

Yea, you're right. I got a little carried away with excitement. But I still want Jax for Mags, I'd throw in some picks or another player or two to get there.

ajbry
09-21-2006, 11:41 PM
Reading some of your replies, you're overrating Maggette, which doesn't surprise me in the least.

He can score via slashing primarily, sure, that's fine. He plays marginally adaquate defense. He is athletic, which certainly attributes to the fact that ESPN has put it in your heads that he is a good player. He's injured A LOT. He will not accept a role dictated to him, on a winning team.

Tell me again - why would we trade our starting SG for this?

Artest, sure, that would've been a good deal. Take a little bit of a risk with an over-hyped player and see if he can stay healthy and develop an outside shot. However, when we trade a proven, all-around skilled SG just to get Maggs in return... That doesn't make sense.

pizza guy
09-21-2006, 11:42 PM
You weren't the only one, were you bulldog? I'm too lazy to go back through and check, but I was pretty sure there were a few people. Just wanted to clarify, in case it mattered to anyone. lol.

Like I said though, Jax for Maggs is something we'd have to do. I'm not sure why LAC does it, but, it's a no-brainer for us. With all the little pieces we have, that have good potential, I think it's possible.

Starting Maggs, JO, Danny, and Al is a crazy thought...so crazy, it just might work!

JayRedd
09-22-2006, 12:33 AM
Like I said though, Jax for Maggs is something we'd have to do. I'm not sure why LAC does it, but, it's a no-brainer for us. With all the little pieces we have, that have good potential, I think it's possible.

Not sure it's as far fetched as you think. (Not to say it's even remotely plausible considering it's currently an Internet rumor. Just not out of this world from the Clipps side)

Because despite my last post and my hundreds of trade requests for Jax....he's actually a pretty good basketball player. ajbry is pretty on-point here.

The Clipps can much more easily see that Jax is a good, all-around SG who can do 90% of what Maggette can do and, most importantly, plays in about 33% more games. He really doesn't carry the same baggage elsewhere as he does to us hardcore, moral Pacer diehards that have to watch Jacksons antics/bball IQ every night. I mean, c'mon, Elgin Baylor just gave Tim Thomas a 4-year deal. Jackson never even got kicked off a team last year. Jax is better than Tim Thomas, with a better track record (on-court anyway) and a similar contract. They would actually be saving almost $1 mill by making this deal.

And I know that the last thing we probably need is a Tins/Maggette back-court that plays 80 games combined. But I no longer think Jax can be good for the Pacers, regardless of what he could potentially provide in terms of offense. Talent is not the problem. I just think it's over for him here. No hard feelings, buddy. It's not you; it's me. We can still be friends.

And, I certainly look forward to seeing the beard....as long as it's in another jersey.

Team Indy
09-22-2006, 01:01 AM
At this point, I don't really care if the rumor is valid or not. It's fun to talk about; especially since it centers on getting rid of Jackson.

Though, I have to say this: the proposals that say, "I'd throw in Harrison," are so wrong. Not only is SJax a slightly better shooter than Maggs, thus the Pacers lose even more in the department - but Maggs is NOT A CENTER! Do you realize how little sense it makes to trade away maybe our two best options for their positions to get back a player that doesn't fill the needs left behind?

Our best option at 2, our best depth at 5? For a guy that doesn't really fill the shooting need that this team has? I'll pass.

Maggs for Jack straigh-up? Sure. Even Maggs for Jack and filler. Harrison is more than filler - he's our best backup 5.

To add to that, the Clips don't seem like they need another center. They have one of the deepest big man rotations in the league, including veterans Brand, Kaman, Aaron Williams and Rebraca who can play center. And they have the rights to baby Shaq.

jjbjjbjjb
09-22-2006, 01:09 AM
Ever heard of an industry called "The News"?

:burn:

:D

kellogg
09-22-2006, 01:19 AM
Why on Earth would the Clippers do that?

That's just it...they wouldn't.

If Elgin Baylor was balking at Corey for Ron, he isn't insane enough to do Corey for Jax.

Another 'inside' rumor that's has all the reliability of 'when I was in the mens room at conseco I heard larry and donnie talking and.......'

kellogg
09-22-2006, 01:25 AM
Besides the fact that the rumor is whacked...

Why would Pacers brass want Magette anyway? Do they miss Bender that much?

Dr. Goldfoot
09-22-2006, 02:08 AM
most people who do have those connections are smart enough to know they can burn a bridge really fast by running their mouth.




Bingo!

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 03:35 AM
Unclebuck, you bought up a excellent observation... if we can get the deal done by throwing David Harrison in the deal then we should do it.

tdubb03
09-22-2006, 03:45 AM
Whoever's said they'd trade DH and Jax for Mags; are you crazy?! We're extremely slim up front as is.

Eindar
09-22-2006, 04:00 AM
um...

Eindar
09-22-2006, 04:00 AM
Unclebuck, you bought up a excellent observation... if we can get the deal done by throwing David Harrison in the deal then we should do it.

That makes it a lot riskier, especially once you factor in health and stats. If you look at Jackson's stats this past year vs. Maggette's stats from a couple years ago when he put up 22 per game, Mags was scoring more than Jax, but he also had a higher turnover total (which is hard to fathom turning it over more than Jax), assists were comparable, Jax had slightly more steals and a much higher blocks per game stat. Somehow Maggette outrebounded Jax by 2 boards per game, despite being 3 inches shorter. As far as shooting, Maggette is a slightly more accurate shooter overall, but Jax is better from deep.

So, really, you're looking at trading DH in order to improve your slashing ability and grab a couple more boards per game. You will also improve your ballhandling at the SG position, or at least that's my perception, although the TO/G stat doesn't back that up. The downside is that your SG is likely to miss 15-20 games more per year than he did, and defense will suffer.

I don't really think that's worth giving up a 7', 280lb Center that's not a stiff. Now, if it were Jax and Powell, or even Jax and Marshall, I think I'd do that.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 04:04 AM
The Front rotation will be slim regardless, plus ... Corey will help us up front infact he can even start PF at times. hes a great rebounder for his own size and a good slasher. and he can give you almost 10+ FT attempts every game... the only thing he lacks is the fundamentals of the game and he makes ALOT of bone-headed mistakes.

Kstat
09-22-2006, 04:11 AM
:laugh:

you guys actually got 4 good pages out of this? We're in mid-season form already!

Is there a single team in the NBA that would trade anything for Stephen Jackson right now? That's not a joke, it's an honest question.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 05:13 AM
Kstat, you're the ultimate Party-pooper. no one knows the answer to that question "Honestly" so why tell us? we don't work for Organizations we're fans. last time you discourage me by consistently provoking me from believing Reggie will never comeback or even be part of the Pacers Organization and now you're doing the samething with this.

Eindar
09-22-2006, 05:22 AM
:laugh:

you guys actually got 4 good pages out of this? We're in mid-season form already!

Is there a single team in the NBA that would trade anything for Stephen Jackson right now? That's not a joke, it's an honest question.

Well, given your attitude, I can tell that you're in mid-season form.

D-BONE
09-22-2006, 06:16 AM
That makes it a lot riskier, especially once you factor in health and stats. If you look at Jackson's stats this past year vs. Maggette's stats from a couple years ago when he put up 22 per game, Mags was scoring more than Jax, but he also had a higher turnover total (which is hard to fathom turning it over more than Jax), assists were comparable, Jax had slightly more steals and a much higher blocks per game stat. Somehow Maggette outrebounded Jax by 2 boards per game, despite being 3 inches shorter. As far as shooting, Maggette is a slightly more accurate shooter overall, but Jax is better from deep.

So, really, you're looking at trading DH in order to improve your slashing ability and grab a couple more boards per game. You will also improve your ballhandling at the SG position, or at least that's my perception, although the TO/G stat doesn't back that up. The downside is that your SG is likely to miss 15-20 games more per year than he did, and defense will suffer.

I don't really think that's worth giving up a 7', 280lb Center that's not a stiff. Now, if it were Jax and Powell, or even Jax and Marshall, I think I'd do that.

You are exactly right in your assessment of Jack and Magette. I think what you say just reitertates the point a few of us that are not so blinded by emotion about Jack have pointed out. Jack for Magette would be approximately a lateral move at best. Perhaps not even that on a team starved for outside shooting and guys who don't have a propensity to get injured.

The idea that gettings Jack the headcase attitude problem moved out is not that salient either given that Magette has established a pretty solid rep as a whining malcontent more into himself than the team concept.

If this thing has any validity whatsoever beyond an empty rumor, I wouldn't complain about such a deal. I just don't think it a sure-fire move that improves our team significantly. Maybe, but not nearly as definitively as the majority seems to be painting it. In much the same way I think some are disproportionately inflating Magette in comparison to Jack as players.

bulldog
09-22-2006, 09:03 AM
Two cardinal rules that show why I was wrong when I said we should throw Harrison in the trade:
1) Never trade big for small.
2) Never trade young for old and injury prone.

Fireball Kid
09-22-2006, 09:22 AM
How is this deal going to improve our perimeter shooting?

Outsider
09-22-2006, 09:36 AM
How is this deal going to improve our perimeter shooting?

Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winnner here!!

D23
09-22-2006, 09:42 AM
Ok, but give one good reason why the Clippers would want Jack?

Maybe his beard will take some of the focus off Chris Kaman's face? SNAP!

FlavaDave
09-22-2006, 09:44 AM
Yeah. Call me crazy, but this isn't a slam dunk. In fact, I might go as far as to say that we shouldn't do it.

We have slashers. That's what the draft and the Marquis trade was all about.

We have injury prone players.

What we don't have is outside shooting. And even though SJax is pretty terrible at contested 3's, he's pretty good at open 3's.

Unclebuck
09-22-2006, 09:49 AM
This is a slam dunk because it gets rid of Jackson and we actually get a good player in return. Right after the season most Pacers fans were willing to trade Jackson for nothing, but if this trade happens then we actually get a good player.

McKeyFan
09-22-2006, 09:57 AM
This is a slam dunk because it gets rid of Jackson and we actually get a good player in return. Right after the season most Pacers fans were willing to trade Jackson for nothing, but if this trade happens then we actually get a good player.

Ding, ding, ding. The newest winner here.

Unclebuck
09-22-2006, 10:11 AM
:laugh:

you guys actually got 4 good pages out of this? We're in mid-season form already!

Is there a single team in the NBA that would trade anything for Stephen Jackson right now? That's not a joke, it's an honest question.

I doubt there is, and that is why I'm throwing in Harrison.

ChicagoJ
09-22-2006, 10:16 AM
How is this deal going to improve our perimeter shooting?

Easy:

SJax
Year 3FGM 3FGM 3FG% TO(per game)
2003 95 297 .320 2.2
2004 145 427 .340 2.8
2005 103 286 .350 2.4
2006 117 339 .345 2.5

Maggette
Year 3FGM 3FGM 3FG% TO(per game)
2003 62 177 .350 2.3
2004 76 231 .329 2.8
2005 51 168 .301 2.9
2006 24 71 .338 2.4

Maggette is going to take and miss far fewer 3-pointers per game. Maggette's highest attempts in a season are significantly lower than SJax's lowest attempts in a season (and Stephen was suspended thirty games that year.)

We don't need a great three point shooter to spread the court or have a good offense. But we do need our average or below-average shooters (and SJax and Maggette would certainly qualifies as a below average 3pt shooters) to quit trying to prove they can hit these shots.

The turnovers are the about the same, but Maggette's a slasher so you'd expect his turnovers to be somewhat high. Does anybody think of SJax as a slasher? I know I don't but somebody might.

EDIT: By the way (and I've posted this before) if SJax had the discipline to get down to 1-2 3pt FGAs in a game, a lot of the on-court criticism of him would go away.

SJax has averaged 5.0 3FGA/ game over the past three seasons. That's significantly more than Reggie's career average of 4.6 3FGA/ game, especially considering his 3FG% much worse than Reggie's.

Frank Slade
09-22-2006, 10:51 AM
Here is the checklist , at least for me, on If I agree with this or any trade.


Is said player that we are trading for considered by most around the league to be a better player? ..Check
Is the contract the same length or shorter than the player we are trading away ? Check
Is the player we are trading for as good if not better defensive presence?.. No Check
Is the player we are trading for more or less injury prone then who we have. More.. No Check
Is the player a better offensive presence? Check Similar in age? Check
Is the player as good if not better locker room presence?Check
Does the player in question fit into our offense? Check
Will this player fill a need? Considering Jax has struggled at times being one of the primary scorers. Check
Maggette has in the past been the Clips primary option , or at times has come off the bench, and has done well in both.

Will this trade leave a need to be filled ?

Perhaps. however which would I rather have, especially in the clutch or when the game is on the line,
Jax shooting a three or Maggette driving to the hole.?
Maggette Check

Is this trade so obvious that I did not need to use the checklist? Check


I am not too confident the Clips would do this straight up, Then again we do not have the details of who else may be involved if this rumor is true.

Shawne Williams I could see as a very possible candidate with Jax in any deal.

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 11:40 AM
Frank,

I find your check list an interesting concept, though I do have one question.

I'm working under the assumption that you've not been in either the Pacers or the Clippers locker room; consequently, I'm curious as to how you know which player is the better locker room presence?

MJB

Los Angeles
09-22-2006, 11:45 AM
Frank,

I find your check list an interesting concept, though I do have one question.

I'm working under the assumption that you've not been in either the Pacers or the Clippers locker room; consequently, I'm curious as to how you know which player is the better locker room presence?

MJB

Uh Oh - now you've done it.

I'm finding a place to hide.

:zip:

McClintic Sphere
09-22-2006, 11:52 AM
The only way I can figure that the Clips would do this is if 'The Don' has planted a horse head in Donald Sterling's bed.
Oh, wait. I just answered my own question: Donald Sterling.

Will Galen
09-22-2006, 11:56 AM
I doubt there is, and that is why I'm throwing in Harrison.

There goes ALL your street cred.

You're one of my favorite posters, but every once in a while you say something that has me scratching my head. This idea seems like it should be coming from one of our . . . lessor basketball educated posters, not you.

Frank Slade
09-22-2006, 12:02 PM
Frank,

I find your check list an interesting concept, though I do have one question.

I'm working under the assumption that you've not been in either the Pacers or the Clippers locker room; consequently, I'm curious as to how you know which player is the better locker room presence?

MJB

Sure,fair enough question.

To be clear I am referring to "Lockerroom" as a loose term , encompassing any and all interaction on and off the court. As far as being a good teammate, what type of baggage if any comes along with the player, the negative or positive influence the player is able to have on the team.

While I remember Maggette voicing his concern over not starting a few times, I have not heard anything incriminating or the like.

As a fan I can only go by what I see and hear, attempting to seperate perception from reality. I would believe however, Maggette would be a welcomed addition to the Pacers "Lockeroom".

Also the question was as good if not better, so my assumption would be that Maggette is no worse than Jax.

However, I'm not sure if your question was mainly on principal or if perhaps you may be aware of something to the contrary that would alter my view?

Fool
09-22-2006, 12:05 PM
There goes ALL your street cred.

You're one of my favorite posters, but every once in a while you say something that has me scratching my head. This idea seems like it should be coming from one of our . . . lessor basketball educated posters, not you.

The arrogance in this post is knee buckling.

Jermaniac
09-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Ducktales

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 12:16 PM
Frank,

The question was theoretical in nature. Having not been aeround the Clippers, I have no way of knowing what type of teammate Maggette is, nor do I know what type of preseence he has in that mix.

Generally speaking, I would caution against making any judgments about players based on public perception. For instance, I have spoken to multiple players over the years that have mentioned both Latrell Sprewell and Rasheed Wallace as being among those considered by their peers to be excellent teammates, which would probably run contrary to what most fans would believe. Conversely, I've heard negative reviews from players I respect regarding teammates that are held in high esteem by fans, but not necessarily by their peers.

In other words, I think this is a category that can't be evaluated by those without first hand knowledge.

MJB

RWB
09-22-2006, 12:19 PM
Sure,fair enough question.

To be clear I am referring to "Lockerroom" as a loose term ,



Such as, I don't remember Mags

1. Throwing a round house punch.
2. Griping/complaining to the refs at least two times a game which prevents
him from getting back on defense.
3. Coming out in the paper and complaining about a mate (see Granger).

As Frank has said maybe the term locker room has Mark confused when we're really afraid that SJax is just a bad example to follow for the young guys.

lumber man
09-22-2006, 12:32 PM
I don't know how either player is in "The Locker Room". But, I met Jack at the mall one time and He is without a doubt the most down to earth and sincere celeb I have ever ran into. He gets a bad rep in Indy, but I'm willing to bet that he is a great teammate. I would never trade him for an injury prone player who isn't really any better anyway.(Just my opinion.)

RWB
09-22-2006, 12:32 PM
Generally speaking, I would caution against making any judgments about players based on public perception.
MJB

I think we may have seen enough on the court to make a partial judment, don't you think?

Smooth_for_Pres.
09-22-2006, 12:36 PM
You know, I heard this rumor as well. I also heard that the Donnie Walsh is going to sign Oscar Robertson right after he eats Jamal Tinsleys brain during half-time of the Nets - Pacers pre-season game.

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 12:44 PM
RWB,

No, I don't. You may have seen enough to make an informed judgment about whether a player does things on the court that are detrimental, but that's just one aspect of the "good teammate" equation. I remain convinced that none of us can judge whether or not a player is a good teammate without being privy to the daily team dynamic, both on and off the floor.

MJB

FlavaDave
09-22-2006, 12:45 PM
Frank,

The question was theoretical in nature. Having not been aeround the Clippers, I have no way of knowing what type of teammate Maggette is, nor do I know what type of preseence he has in that mix.

Generally speaking, I would caution against making any judgments about players based on public perception. For instance, I have spoken to multiple players over the years that have mentioned both Latrell Sprewell and Rasheed Wallace as being among those considered by their peers to be excellent teammates, which would probably run contrary to what most fans would believe. Conversely, I've heard negative reviews from players I respect regarding teammates that are held in high esteem by fans, but not necessarily by their peers.

In other words, I think this is a category that can't be evaluated by those without first hand knowledge.

MJB

So Mark, what have you heard about SJax's reputation as a teamate/locker room presence?

Isaac
09-22-2006, 12:45 PM
I don't know how either player is in "The Locker Room". But, I met Jack at the mall one time and He is without a doubt the most down to earth and sincere celeb I have ever ran into. He gets a bad rep in Indy, but I'm willing to bet that he is a great teammate. I would never trade him for an injury prone player who isn't really any better anyway.(Just my opinion.)

Very true. Every time I've talked to Jack I've been stunned how nice of a guy he is.

I would do this deal straight up, but I would definitley miss Jack. I would most DEFINITLEY not add Harrison in the mix.

ChicagoJ
09-22-2006, 12:50 PM
Frank,

The question was theoretical in nature. Having not been aeround the Clippers, I have no way of knowing what type of teammate Maggette is, nor do I know what type of preseence he has in that mix.

Generally speaking, I would caution against making any judgments about players based on public perception. For instance, I have spoken to multiple players over the years that have mentioned both Latrell Sprewell and Rasheed Wallace as being among those considered by their peers to be excellent teammates, which would probably run contrary to what most fans would believe. Conversely, I've heard negative reviews from players I respect regarding teammates that are held in high esteem by fans, but not necessarily by their peers.

In other words, I think this is a category that can't be evaluated by those without first hand knowledge.

MJB

Mark,

I wish there were examples you could share.

Some of us have hypothecated on here that - in support of what you're saying - that Anthony Johnson and Austin Croshere - although they said things publicly last season that resonated with the fans and appeared to be acting more "professional" than their teammates - may have caused more "lockerroom" type problems than they solved. In fact, I think Conrad wrote something similar in one of his QotD's after they were traded.

I'm fairly certain you don't feel compelled to use any current examples, but do you have any examples that us old-timers might appreciate/ understand?

If I could be so bold as to ask this, for most of us oldtimers we first heard of the concept of "chemistry problems" with the early-1990s Pacers. A great team on paper that was stuck at 0.500. Chuck and Michael were traded away, but chemistry didn't improve, or at least the W-L record didn't improve. For example, we've heard that neither Bo Hill (Bo doesn't specifically name Pooh in his coaching book, but its easy with hindsight to connect the dots) nor Larry Brown nor their teammates could get along Pooh Richardson. In the meantime, Detlef was traded for Derrick and by the end of that season we were playing in the ECFs. Coincidence? Was Detlef somebody that the fans thought was a "great guy" in the lockerroom but was really high maintenance? Or was the chemistry problem just on the court, where Detlef seemed to need so much space that he got in both Reggie's and Rik's way on the same play? Or was it all Larry Brown? Is there anything you could explain from that frustrating era for Pacers fans.

(And, for the record, if you say anything bad about Chuck Conners Person, my all-time favorite player, I will do this: :notlisten :D )

But I wonder if the generaly public/ PD could get a better understanding of what a chemistry problem is really like/ caused by, and how that's the same or different than a "lockerroom cancer."

I think its safe to say that many of us see SJax's on court ballhogging, on court uncoachability, on court confrontations with his teammates, and say, "he's got to be bad for chemistry." But there's more to chemistry than that.

Of course, with all those things above, he could still be okay for "chemistry" but still a key reason why the team is not playing well. Those obviously aren't the same things either but I think we as posting community take the short cut and equate them.

Of if you could give some examples on a no-name basis...

blanket
09-22-2006, 01:01 PM
anyone know if Eric Pincus has weighed in on this rumor yet? He claimed to have good connections with the Clips front office.

Ultimate Frisbee
09-22-2006, 01:01 PM
I'd include Harrison to get this deal done, and I'd probably trade either White or Williams, you can't miss what you never had. I wouldn't include Granger unless we can get Livingston, but that is a pipe dream. (In fact I'd trade anyone on our roster for Livingston)

Being a Clippers follower/fan as well (since moving to LA)... I agree!

RWB
09-22-2006, 01:02 PM
RWB,

No, I don't. You may have seen enough to make an informed judgment about whether a player does things on the court that are detrimental, but that's just one aspect of the "good teammate" equation. I remain convinced that none of us can judge whether or not a player is a good teammate without being privy to the daily team dynamic, both on and off the floor.

MJB


I do see your point Mark and appreciate the banter.

Back to one of your original questions concerning this. Why would someone want to discuss rumors? As others have expressed its because we are fans. Not to sound rude, but you can't understand and here is why.

Mark Boyle can not do his job unless he is somewhat dispassionate about the Pacers. Mark I know you hope the team does well, wins a championship, and so forth, but plain and simple you're on the inside and have seen too many things. While the other 2,500 plus who visit this site gloriously remain in the dark and our only commitment is to be fans. Many do have the clinical eye, but without some Springer talk mixed in this would be a very boring site.

Arcadian
09-22-2006, 01:06 PM
Being liked by your teammates doesn't make you good for chemistry; in fact it can make a player even worse for chemistry.

A player who cusses out his coach (which Jackson said he has done) sounds like a bad lockerroom presence to me. I didn't hear it, maybe there is more to it but I feel fairly certain that it isn't a good sign.

ChicagoJ
09-22-2006, 01:14 PM
Being liked by your teammates doesn't make you good for chemistry; in fact it can make a player even worse for chemistry.

A player who cusses out his coach (which Jackson said he has done) sounds like a bad lockerroom presence to me. I didn't hear it, maybe there is more to it but I feel fairly certain that it isn't a good sign.

That depends on who gets to decide the definition of "chemistry".

And that's why some posters have concerns that the Pacers management seems to have assembled a posse for Jermaine this summer, which may improve the "I like my teammates" variable but may not improve chemistry.

You can't have players fighting, but they don't need to all be fraternity brothers, either.

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 01:15 PM
FlavaDave,

Private conversations I've had on that subject, if any, must remain so.

That said, I think people that listen to our broadcasts are aware that I am a Stephen Jackson advocate. This is not to say that I think Jackson (or any other player, for that matter) is without fault. In fact, I've been critical of his periodic on court peccadilloes on more than one occasion. Still, though it is occasionally misdirected, I admire his passion and am very impressed by his commitement to being on the floor through pain and the type of nagging injuries that often cause other players to sit.

In short, while I personally would never consider any player untouchable, this is one player I would have no difficulty having on my team if I were in charge.

MJB

P.S.: On an unrelated note, that is a great avatar, Fool. I look forward to your posts, just so I can enjoy it.

Evan_The_Dude
09-22-2006, 01:16 PM
The Clips would do this deal because Jack would add toughness. I think putting Cassell and his rings on a team with Jack and his ring would work wonders for that team. Sometimes it's not about getting the most talented player, sometimes it's about getting the player that best fits the makeup of the team.

The Pacers would only do this deal because it would get rid of Jackson just like the majority of fans want. There really isn't any other valid reason for us to want to do this. We already have 4 players on this roster that can do what Maggette can do. Let's not be greedy.

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 01:31 PM
Jay,

Though I appreciate the question, I would be hesitant to "name names". For one thing, many of the things I see and conversations I have are private and must remain that way. For another, while I have access that the average fan lacks, that doesn't mean I'm an expert on what goes on in the locker room. I don't play with these guys, nor do we hang together, and my relationship with the players is not one that would afford me the same sort of insight that somebody who is immersed in that culture on a daily basis would have.

As a very general statement, I would say that my own idea of a good chemsitry guy or a good teammate would be an individual that puts the good of the group ahead of his own agenda. This, I think, holds true in any group endeavor, be it a basketball team or a business office.

MJB

RWB
09-22-2006, 01:42 PM
I admire his passion and am very impressed by his commitement to being on the floor through pain and the type of nagging injuries that often cause other players to sit.



And there in lies the rub. As fans we love passion and Stephen with the PROPER direction would be a fan favorite. However, until proven otherwise he is just another Ron Artest (another passionate guy) on a smaller scale. Stephens' good teammate passion escalated the most embarassing incident in Pacer history and possibly the NBA.

Isaac
09-22-2006, 01:47 PM
Jay,

Though I appreciate the question, I would be hesitant to "name names". For one thing, many of the things I see and conversations I have are private and must remain that way. For another, while I have access that the average fan lacks, that doesn't mean I'm an expert on what goes on in the locker room. I don't play with these guys, nor do we hang together, and my relationship with the players is not one that would afford me the same sort of insight that somebody who is immersed in that culture on a daily basis would have.

As a very general statement, I would say that my own idea of a good chemsitry guy or a good teammate would be an individual that puts the good of the group ahead of his own agenda. This, I think, holds true in any group endeavor, be it a basketball team or a business office.

MJB


Boooooooooo, come on Mr. Boyle, you can do better then that. ;)

In all seriousness, I think a good chemistry guy is sort of a relative term. Someone can be great for chemistry in one place, or in a certain situation, but in another he can be very destructive.

For example, someone mentioned how Jack may get along with his teammates, but that doesn't mean he's good for chemistry if he's cussing out his coach and setting a bad example. Now, if Mike Brown were head coach, we all know the relationship they had and Jack probably wouldn't be cussing out Brown, thus not setting the bad example.

Another example would be Steve Francis. I don't think I remember any 'locker room' problems with Francis when he was with Houston and they were winning games. Then he goes to Orlando, and when they are losing all of a sudden he's a headcase and a problem. I know he started off on a bad foot by refusing to go to Vancouver when he got drafted, but from his start in Houston I think he was known as a pretty good guy for the team.

Of course, we can also talk about Dennis Rodman's adventures...

Kstat
09-22-2006, 01:52 PM
Of course, we can also talk about Dennis Rodman's adventures...

On the floor, Rodman was the epitome of a team player. Did the little things, didn't hog the ball, played great defense.

thunderbird1245
09-22-2006, 01:52 PM
I guess I might as well post my views on this rumored trade, and the discussion of "chemistry."

As far as the rumored trade for Jackson for Maggette....I would not make the trade if I were the Pacers. I'm not in love with Jackson, and I don't hate Maggette by any means, but I just don't feel that Maggette is enough of an upgrade to justify the injury risk he brings with him. I view Maggette as a slightly better overall player, however I think that Jackson is a better "fit" for our overall roster as it is currently put together. I view Jackson as having enough of a perimeter game to better compliment our other wing players. While he certainly isnt great at it, Jackson is this rosters best wing to post feeder, and he remains currently our best 3 point shooter. I actually view Jackson as a good shooter from deep, its not his shooting ability thats a problem but his penchant to take shots he shouldnt take. Im going on the assumption that we can fix that problem with a few changes in personnel and overall offensive scheme, so I think that for us (not necessarily the rest of the league) that Jackson is the better fit.

I also like Jackson's slightly bigger size and durability over Maggette. He can play bigger people that Maggette cannot defensively, as he is slightly heavier and 2 inches bigger approximately. My impression is that Jackson is bigger and more imposing physically than Jackson. Add that to the fact that Jackson will likely play 15 games per season more than Maggette, and its my judgement that I'd pass on this trade as it currently is constructed.
I dont see being able to pair Maggette with White or especially Daniels as easily as easily or often as I can Jackson.

Substitute "Morris Peterson" for Corey Maggette and I'd have a different opinion though....

MBOYLE is correct on the comments of "chemistry" however, and I can state that as a guy who has coached at some different levels. What appears to be one thing as far as we fans can see isnt necessarily the case behind closed doors. While in general I think the typical regard for "chemistry" is overrated, I can tell you from my perspective that my definition of chemistry goes like this:

1. How well does the player "buy in" to whatever Im trying to teach?
2. How committed is he to being the best player for the team he can be?
3. How well do his strengths compliment our other players games and our overall team structure on the floor?
4. How coachable is he.....does he cause distractions he shouldnt?
5. How important is winning to them vs their own individual success?

I dont in general think its important that players be friends off the court, or go out to dinner together, or hang out after hours, or joke around in the locker room together, or any of that....I just want them to be attentive, concentrate, buy in to the philosophy of the team and its goals, and to go out and give maximum effort all the time.

Chemistry is overrated in general, and sometimes the player who may not be "good for chemistry" is actually the player you need, and a player who is getting along with teammates and whatever is the player you need to eliminate....how a team's personality forms and evolves over time is a fascinating thing for me each year to watch, and the problems arent always as obvious as you might think from the outside.

JMO

Isaac
09-22-2006, 01:57 PM
Of course, we can also talk about Dennis Rodman's adventures...

On the floor, Rodman was the epitome of a team player. Did the little things, didn't hog the ball, played great defense.

That's exactly my point. After diving for loose balls and giving up easy layups to teammates and sacrificing himself for the team, he would then go kick a camera man or do something else strange. He was one of a kind.

Putnam
09-22-2006, 02:04 PM
A couple of really good points are made in this thread, thanks to MBoyle1313.

When discussing potential trades we should distinguish between a) the desirability of the player swap being considered, and b) the likelihood of the trade actually coming off.

As informed fans with access to scouting reports and statistics and old game film, etc., people here on Pacers Digest can make pretty good comments on the first. The information needed to evaluate the players is largely out there. All it takes is the effort to look at enough evidence.

But the inner machinations that go into trades is more than we can know. I, for one, don't know anything except what Bruno writes or Mark and Slick and Kevin Lee say on the radio. Even people like Kaufman and Hoop, who are only one step away from insiders, are only hearing a bit of what goes on. We just can't say with any validity that a trade will or won't happen, since we can only consider a few obvious factors (the players' performance, salaries, ages, history of injury, etc.) without any knowledge of what else is behind the decision -- or even if the talks are serious or even if they are happening at all.

It is a free forum and everybody is free to say what they please, subject to the rules. I don't think Hoop did anything wrong by suggesting "Jackson for Maggette? How about it?" But there is a great difference between informed opinion about the relative merits of two players and speculation about the likelihood that a trade will happen.

The second great point is already discussed above by thunderbird.


Excuse my preachiness.

Kstat
09-22-2006, 02:04 PM
That's exactly my point. After diving for loose balls and giving up easy layups to teammates and sacrificing himself for the team, he would then go kick a camera man or do something else strange. He was one of a kind.

My point is, Jackson could get away with the antics if he didn't also play as selfishly as he was perceived to act.

Not playing defense at crucial moments-bad

Missing critical shots over double-teams while overlooking a wide open teamate- bad.

Those are two things he has to fix.

If there isn't a statistic for it, Jax doesn't seem like he cares about it, and that's the problem.

indygeezer
09-22-2006, 02:11 PM
I was the first to advocate ridding ourselves of Jax following his return from the brawl. His actions upon his return showed me that he was not the type person I want representing me and my hometown to the rest of the world. His Jalen Rose act oncourt just enhances that. Yes, I include all of that in his "lockeroom presence". I again will mitigate all of this by saying in the past couple of years he is the ONE player you can count on to elevate his game come the playoffs.

While I would like to see him traded, it must be for an upgrade...not a sideways trade. I'm willing to give him yet another chance because I have seen flashes that made me hopeful.....dadburn is it time for the season yet???

Doug
09-22-2006, 02:19 PM
My point is, Jackson could get away with the antics if he didn't also play as selfishly as he was perceived to act.

Not playing defense at crucial moments-bad

Missing critical shots over double-teams while overlooking a wide open teamate- bad.

Those are two things he has to fix.

*****ing at the refs while the other team fastbreaks - bad.

Make that three. Although I suppose that could be a subset of your #1.


Other random thoughts:

Chemistry is overrated. Until you have bad chemistry.

You can still be liked by your teammates and not be good for chemistry.

You can still play hard and play hurt and not be good for chemistry.

You can appear to be bad for team chemistry to the outside world, but still be good for team chemistry in actuallity.

You can be bad for chemistry in one environment and good for it in another. This is where I believe Jackson falls. And I don't believe that our team, at least as it has been the past couple of years, is the right environment.

SycamoreKen
09-22-2006, 02:20 PM
How bout this starting five?

Daniels
Maggette
Granger
Harrington
O'Neil

We had better have plenty of motion in our offense if that lineup happens. Teams would sag in on our bigs and dare the smalls to shoot the ball.

Anthem
09-22-2006, 02:24 PM
No, I don't. You may have seen enough to make an informed judgment about whether a player does things on the court that are detrimental, but that's just one aspect of the "good teammate" equation. I remain convinced that none of us can judge whether or not a player is a good teammate without being privy to the daily team dynamic, both on and off the floor.
That's a fair and reasonable position to take.

But you should have been here when Harrison basically told the Indystar "I don't need to control my emotions because Steven Jackson doesn't." I was surprised Jack wasn't burned in effigy. And if the young players are getting the idea that it's ok to mouth off to the refs and the coaching staff because someone else does, then I don't consider that "someone else" a good teammate, no matter how nice they are in person.

Anthem
09-22-2006, 02:28 PM
And for the record, I'd be in favor of a 1-for-1 swap (or even a 2-for-1 where we give up someone like Powell) for Maggette if only because I believe he'd be easier to trade if we were looking to make more moves.

McKeyFan
09-22-2006, 02:29 PM
I think people that listen to our broadcasts are aware that I am a Stephen Jackson advocate.

This is not to say that I think Jackson (or any other player, for that matter) is without fault. In fact, I've been critical of his periodic on court peccadilloes on more than one occasion. Still, though it is occasionally misdirected, I admire his passion and am very impressed by his commitement to being on the floor through pain and the type of nagging injuries that often cause other players to sit.


I am definitely the opposite of a Jackson advocate.

That said, I have heard more than once that Jax is one of the nicest Pacers off the court and toward fans.

But, really, MBoyle, I find it difficult for anyone to advocate for Jackson given his antics, immaturity, defiance of the coach, and selfish play and low-percentage scoring.

Is it possible your advocacy of Jackson is more related to your personal interaction with him than his on-court behavior?

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just asking. I'm also trying to make the point that you can see why we, who do not know him personally, are generally unfavorable toward him, as are all those fans who boo him regularly.

Kstat
09-22-2006, 02:35 PM
On second thought, I take that back.

I'd trade Carlos Delfino for Stephen Jackson.

Granted, I'd probably end up cutting Jax outright, but the cap hit would be outweighed by the satisfaction by trading that backstabbing cancer off my team.....

Meanwhile, I could actually have some fun the next time he goes to the foriegn press about his current NBA club...

PacerMan
09-22-2006, 03:05 PM
I'd include Harrison to get this deal done, and I'd probably trade either White or Williams, you can't miss what you never had. I wouldn't include Granger unless we can get Livingston, but that is a pipe dream. (In fact I'd trade anyone on our roster for Livingston)

No way. Since we got Daniels, and WHite, and others, slashers are not a premium for us. Hulk has the POTENTIAL to be a much larger factor to this team than Maggette would. Not even sure I'd be excited about a straight up trade even though Mag is more talented. He is an injury waiting to happen which we're all sick of, while Jackson IS an iron man. (it's his best selling point).

CompACE
09-22-2006, 03:12 PM
I found this article on sportingnews.com. I'm guessing this guy has no inside information, but it makes for a good read:

Stop the rumors and talk some trade sense
July 12, 2006

There are three phases to the NBA's offseason. First comes draft season. Then comes free-agent signing season. Finally, it's trade season. The draft is over. Free agency is all but over. That means it's time to get trading.

We've been hearing trickles of NBA trade rumors for weeks now, and it's time for general managers to start pulling the trigger on some deals. Unfortunately, GMs in sports tend to be a yellow-bellied lot, too timid for the liking of most fans. Or most sports writers, for that matter.

I've gone scouring the rumor mill to find players on the NBA's trading block, and to put together five sense-making proposals that would move several individuals to much-needed new locales. I'd like to invite you, the fans, to include your proposals, which I will then review and make another list of potential trades. Remember, though, to stay within the rules of the NBA (salaries must match up) and common sense (LeBron is not going to L.A., Lakers fans). Here goes:

1. The Clippers send Corey Maggette to Indiana for Stephen Jackson and David Harrison.

The finances: Maggette will get $7 million this year and is in the final three years of his contract, at $23 million total. Harrison is still on his rookie scale contract, at about $740,000 for this year, but will be due an extension. Jackson has four years left, at about $27 million.

Why it helps L.A.: Maggette wants to start, but the Clippers are not so sure. They like what defensive-minded wingman Quinton Ross did in Maggette's absence last year, and for a team that struggles with D, Ross' presence is valuable. The addition of Tim Thomas makes Maggette even more expendable. The Clippers still need help with a backup big man, and help on the perimeter. Jackson is a big-time shot-maker, and Harrison is a useful 7-footer. L.A. does have Cuttino Mobley, but he has slipped recently and he will be 31 (Jackson is 28).

Why it helps Indiana: The Pacers, very quietly, would love to move Jackson, as well as Jamaal Tinsley. Neither has a particularly good attitude, and that has been wearing on coach Rick Carlisle. The Pacers tried to trade for Maggette in a Ron Artest deal in January, and Indy maintains an interest in him. His attitude, like Jackson's, has been questioned, but maybe a fresh start and more scoring opportunities will help. Maggette would be the unquestioned second option in Indiana. The Pacers don't want to give up Harrison, of course, and they'd need to find a backup big man. But getting Maggette for Jackson makes losing Harrison worth it.

PS - sorry if someone already posted this.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=919868&highlight=&sid=9517e458f8d6f8193b3e87883fe12240

PacerMan
09-22-2006, 03:18 PM
Reg was pretty awful in his last couple of years and never better than "heady",


That's just SO wrong. When he was YOUNG, Reg could be a VERY good defender WHEN HE WANTED TO. Most of the time his energy was (rightfully) used on the offensive end. But when he was fired up he could be very very good. He and MJ used to have some rightous battles. MJ might still get his 30, but he had to work HARD to do it.
Reminds me a lot of Freddie on Hamilton (Pissons) in the playoffs 3 years ago. SOme will say Hamilton lit him up, but if you watch them individually Hamilton was making shots out of his **** as Freddie was IN HIS FACE time after time.
Scorecard doesn't tell the whole story.
Reggie was better than heady.

PacerMan
09-22-2006, 03:22 PM
Well, given your attitude, I can tell that you're in mid-season form.

Hey, his team got beat and then "blowed up real good". Cut him some slack. :)

PacerMan
09-22-2006, 03:26 PM
Another example would be Steve Francis. I don't think I remember any 'locker room' problems with Francis when he was with Houston and they were winning games.

Then you weren't paying attention.
I have no interest in Houston and I heard plenty of little selfish Stevie stories.

PacerMan
09-22-2006, 03:29 PM
Maggette would be the unquestioned second option in Indiana.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=919868&highlight=&sid=9517e458f8d6f8193b3e87883fe12240



Not true anymore.

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 03:34 PM
All,

Two points.

1) To clarify, I am not making taking a position, one way or another, as to whether Stephen Jackson is a good teammate. I am merely stating that there are some things about him that I find appealing. As I've already mentioned, in my eyes no player is ever untouchable, and I would always favor moving any player if I felt it would make my team better.

2) Though a cogent argument can be made that the antics of a veteran player can influence a younger one, whatever actions a player takes are ultimately his responsibility alone. In other words, while I may agree that (to use the above example) some of Jackson's actions have been regrettable, I do not hold him responsible for the actions of David Harrison, or anyone else. I maintain that each individual is accountable for his/her own actions.

MJB

FlavaDave
09-22-2006, 03:39 PM
FlavaDave,

Private conversations I've had on that subject, if any, must remain so.

That said, I think people that listen to our broadcasts are aware that I am a Stephen Jackson advocate. This is not to say that I think Jackson (or any other player, for that matter) is without fault. In fact, I've been critical of his periodic on court peccadilloes on more than one occasion. Still, though it is occasionally misdirected, I admire his passion and am very impressed by his commitement to being on the floor through pain and the type of nagging injuries that often cause other players to sit.

In short, while I personally would never consider any player untouchable, this is one player I would have no difficulty having on my team if I were in charge.

MJB

P.S.: On an unrelated note, that is a great avatar, Fool. I look forward to your posts, just so I can enjoy it.


I appreciate your candor, Mark. It's nice to hear the opinions of someone who is obviously closer to the situation that the rest of us. And I know that you can't 'spill the beans' on who said what about Jackson, but your endorsement of him speaks volumes.

And for a second there, I thought you were talking about my avatar and calling me fool, Coolio style. Who knew Boyle had a crush on Donnie Walsh?

;)

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 03:42 PM
Mark, you bought some interesting observations. i have no doubts that Corey Maggette is a bright teammate but i do know he complains alot about 'playing time' though as long as Rick finds a propert rotation for him he should be okay.

appreciate you're insights very much.

BlueNGold
09-22-2006, 04:01 PM
After losing Pollard, Harrison's value for the team went up. We trade Harrison and we will get absolutely pounded by bigger centers, especially when JO pulls a muscle and Jeff's hip acts up. BTW, Jeff and JO are not bangers anyway.

I think the summer heat is getting to some people. We go with a finesse-only game and we will get crushed. You get 3 fouls on JO and we are DONE

imawhat
09-22-2006, 04:03 PM
After losing Pollard, Harrison's value for the team went up. We trade Harrison and we will get absolutely pounded by bigger centers, especially when JO pulls a muscle and Jeff's hip acts up. BTW, Jeff and JO are not bangers anyway.

I think the summer heat is getting to some people. We go with a finesse-only game and we will get crushed. You get 3 fouls on JO and we are DONE


Not advocating a trade here, but I think that's one reason we brought in Baston (foul trouble with O'Neal/Harrison/Foster).

Hicks
09-22-2006, 04:09 PM
Mr. Boyle,

Would you be at liberty to say that from what you know or are told, the chemistry of the team should be improved this season compared to the past few years?

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 04:12 PM
Hicks,

That would be impossible for me to say, as I don't know any of these new guys well enough to offer an opinion. However, as management has acknowledged the chemistry issue on multiple occasions, I think we can infer that they believe the chemistry will be better with this mix.

MJB

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 04:16 PM
After losing Pollard, Harrison's value for the team went up. We trade Harrison and we will get absolutely pounded by bigger centers, especially when JO pulls a muscle and Jeff's hip acts up. BTW, Jeff and JO are not bangers anyway.

I think the summer heat is getting to some people. We go with a finesse-only game and we will get crushed. You get 3 fouls on JO and we are DONE

I think Jeff Foster's value is higher then David Harrison's IMHO. David Harrison is still a question mark though' certainly i woud trade Foster right now to give David Harrison more room to breathe as far as developing quicker...

i will be okay with a DH/SJ for Corey trade and i might even add a future pick aswell....

you can't pass up on a deal like this and as much as i think Stephen Jackson has been getting alot of unfair bashin this trade is a give and go.

if.... Donnie gets this done hes a pure genius and should be mention as a GM of the year Candidate.

FlavaDave
09-22-2006, 04:21 PM
If we trade DH, do we have either part of the mid-level exception or the one million exception to buy a big body? Or have we used them already?

BlueNGold
09-22-2006, 04:29 PM
Not advocating a trade here, but I think that's one reason we brought in Baston (foul trouble with O'Neal/Harrison/Foster).

I hope not. Baston is 6'9", 215 pounds...lighter than Jax and much lighter that Granger. He is a completely unproven commodity from the Euro league who at the very best will be able to guard undersized NBA centers. I am concerned about the full grown men the Pacers will be facing. If we have to rely solely on JO and Foster, we will be in trouble.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 04:31 PM
What if the Clippers ask for Stephen and Granger? :confused:

BlueNGold
09-22-2006, 04:42 PM
What if the Clippers ask for Stephen and Granger? :confused:



Then, we will not get Maggette. No way. Granger will be at least as good as Maggette in a few years if you consider all aspects of their games. Maggette is not known for great defense...he is known to be a very efficient scorer.

ChicagoJ
09-22-2006, 04:46 PM
No way.

Guys I would not include with Stephen for Maggette (unless Kamen was a throw-in from the Clippers and then I'd have to revisit this list):

JO, Al, David, Danny, Marquis.

Anybody else that they want to make that trade work, they can have. :twocents:

indygeezer
09-22-2006, 05:05 PM
All,

Two points.

1) To clarify, I am not making taking a position, one way or another, as to whether Stephen Jackson is a good teammate. I am merely stating that there are some things about him that I find appealing. As I've already mentioned, in my eyes no player is ever untouchable, and I would always favor moving any player if I felt it would make my team better.

2) Though a cogent argument can be made that the antics of a veteran player can influence a younger one, whatever actions a player takes are ultimately his responsibility alone. In other words, while I may agree that (to use the above example) some of Jackson's actions have been regrettable, I do not hold him responsible for the actions of David Harrison, or anyone else. I maintain that each individual is accountable for his/her own actions.
MJB

Careful Mark, you're starting to sound like a conservative!

JJ DYNOBYTE
09-22-2006, 05:23 PM
I really don't think Hulk should be involved in this trade scenario.
IMO that would be a BAD idea.

pizza guy
09-22-2006, 05:24 PM
No way.

Guys I would not include with Stephen for Maggette (unless Kamen was a throw-in from the Clippers and then I'd have to revisit this list):

JO, Al, David, Danny, Marquis.

Anybody else that they want to make that trade work, they can have. :twocents:

I agree with that completely.

We absolutely cannot include David in this deal. We have been complaining about two things all summer: lack of perimeter shooting, and lack of big men. Maggette gives us neither of those. To trade SJax for Maggs is a good deal, to me, because I think Maggs is better, if even a little, than SJax; not to mention my distaste for his on-court behavior. Adding DH leaves us with two holes completely unfilled instead of two at least half filled holes.

Kegboy
09-22-2006, 05:29 PM
unless Kamen was a throw-in from the Clippers and then I'd have to revisit this list

Now Jay, you're still talking like an upper-bowl'er. You sure you want to be up-close-and-personal with him every game?

:shudder:

ChicagoJ
09-22-2006, 05:33 PM
You can take the boy out of the balcony, but you can't take the balcony out of the boy.

Wait, can I say that?

imawhat
09-22-2006, 05:33 PM
I hope not. Baston is 6'9", 215 pounds...lighter than Jax and much lighter that Granger. He is a completely unproven commodity from the Euro league who at the very best will be able to guard undersized NBA centers. I am concerned about the full grown men the Pacers will be facing. If we have to rely solely on JO and Foster, we will be in trouble.

What full grown men are there, other than an aging Shaq and Dwight Howard? Gerald Wallace played some center at 6'7" and 215. Of course, he was on the Bobcats...But Ben Wallace is 6'9" and 240.

vapacersfan
09-22-2006, 05:49 PM
First of all, I apologize for jumping around. I am not really writing this in a question format, rather just commenting from other thoughts in this thread.

I am not sure I agree with your assessment of chemistry, Mr.Boyle. I agree that as fans we can’t see the whole picture, but what we can see is what we pay to see, the final product. It is very possible for players who have bad chemistry to be winning and as Jay said if another thread this is band aid for poor chemistry issues.

I agree with the one point you bring up about Jackson, which is he may be one of the most reliable players the Pacers have had at playing no matter what. To play devils advocate, sometimes the Pacers would have been better off if he was not playing in some of those games.

I will admit right here I am very young, and have very little experience with the topic of “chemistry”, with the exception of high school and a few college courses. I will say this, however. I have been in security for going on two years now, and all of us come out of the same courses and most of us have the skill sets required to be successful at our respective jobs. There are some issues, however, with people who do not want to work with other people. There are many reasons why this may be, but by the same token there are people who will never hang out outside of work, never go out and just “kick it”, but who are an excellent team. None of us know what is going on behind the scenes, but we are def. able to see how chemistry effects the work environment. This is all we can do as Pacers fans, judge from what we can see. I understand how that can be frustrating from your POV, because most announcers would rather rely on facts and not do any speculating at all. If you add to the fact you guys do develop relationships with these guys (I know, I know. All of you don’t let this affect your job. We are all human, no matter how hard you try to stay detached its impossible not to be left with some kind of impressions, be it good or bad) I can def. see why the speculating that us “fans” are involved in would seem a little outrageous.

I understand your point, but I don’t quite understand how anyone can defend the things this man his done in the past 2 seasons. I obviously don’t expect you to answer these questions, but I’ll list all of the things that I can remember off the top of my head from Jackson that I was not pleased with in the past (I will ignore 11/19, as we all know many mistakes were made that day, and if I were announced Commissioner of the NBA tomorrow the first thing I would do is punch that tool bag from the Pistons who blamed this all on Artest in the face and make sure Stern never had any involvement in basketball at the pro level ever again).

• Poor shot selection
• Refusing to pass the ball to a particular player (I am not the only one who noticed this, either)
• A refusal to play defense (The man can play defense, when he wants to he is a great defender)
• To go with the first one, firing up way to many 3 point jump shots
• Arguing with the refs while his name ran back and got a easy bucket (If only I had a quarter for every time that happened last season, I would be in Mark Cubans tax bracket)
• This is more of a personal pet peeve of mine. When Artest came back and Jackson said something to the effect of “Don’t worry about them booing you, they boo me and I play for the home team.” The sad part is it never dawned on Jackson we were not booing him for his race, his dress, or his lack of skill (there is no lack of skill). The fans were booing the lack of effort, and if I may be blunt, the lack of “giving a damn”. This goes back to my previous point.

If I were starting a team, players like Jackson would be the first to go. Maybe that is just me being a bit harsh because I know I have a bit of a temperament and I let my emotions get the best of me, but at some point you have to grow up. Sure he has said the right things, with the help of Pacers.com, but will he follow through and show us he is a changed man.


I do agree with your point that each man is responsible for his own actions, but I think we are kidding ourself if we try to say the younger guys are not going to try to find some kind of role model. These guys are coming into a brand new enviroment, and they want to have someone to "look up to". I put part of the blame of RC, since he is the coach and he never stood up to Jackson, at least that we heard of. If he did, then the blame goes to the TPTB for not backing RC and stepping in. Wether that be a short term solution (Jackson suspended a game, and it not be disguised as a "injury") or long term (suspended indefinitly).


I guess what I am saying is it I can totally see where Jackson the person is a good person, and Jackson the friend is a good person, but as of what we saw last year Stephen Jackson the basketball player brought more bad then he did good to the team, IMO (in my opinion). I don’t expect these guys to be best friends and go out and pick up dates after every game, but it is possible for fans to notice when the team is just not gelling. I know you will say we don’t know what happens behind the scenes, but we don’t have to. We hear the stories, and this either furthers our evidence of said player or player(s) or puts an issue to rest.

Right after 11/19, actually more like a week later, I called my dad who was in Iraq at the time and said “We are going to have to blow this team up”. At that time I did not think Artest would be suspended for the season, but I did know the whole organization had just taken a huge hit from a PR standpoint. I said that we would need to trade JO, Jackson, and Artest. We all know Artest had baggage and had to go. I loved JO, still think at the top of his game he can be a MVP caliber player. I happen to be of the opinion we overpaid for him and that he is more of a “Robin” (number 2 guy) and not a “Batman’ (number 1 guy), but that point is moot. As we go into this season, I am of the opinion that JO has repaired his image enough and that if he has a good year he will be fine. I am not sure people will ever forget his role in the brawl, but he will no have that hanging over his head the way Artest did. I am torn on Jackson. Does he just need a new start with a new coach and fresh faces, along with fans who will give him a clean slate? I am not sure what the answer to the question if, but I can say for sure that if he continues to play with the same attitude he has shown in the past he will receive the same reactions from the fans that he has received in the past.

Isaac
09-22-2006, 06:14 PM
No way.

Guys I would not include with Stephen for Maggette (unless Kamen was a throw-in from the Clippers and then I'd have to revisit this list):

JO, Al, David, Danny, Marquis.

Anybody else that they want to make that trade work, they can have. :twocents:

So you would be comfortable trading Tinsley with Jackson for Corey Maggette??? I sure wouldn't. I definitley don't want to go into the season with Sarunas as our starter and Darrell Armstrong as his backup.

We'd be in big trouble if we made that trade.

Anthem
09-22-2006, 06:15 PM
2) Though a cogent argument can be made that the antics of a veteran player can influence a younger one, whatever actions a player takes are ultimately his responsibility alone. In other words, while I may agree that (to use the above example) some of Jackson's actions have been regrettable, I do not hold him responsible for the actions of David Harrison, or anyone else. I maintain that each individual is accountable for his/her own actions.
Certainly. "Hulk," as we call him around here, is absolutely responsible for his own actions. But if he's going to develop into the player we hope he can be, he needs better role models.

ajbry
09-22-2006, 06:29 PM
Certainly. "Hulk," as we call him around here, is absolutely responsible for his own actions. But if he's going to develop into the player we hope he can be, he needs better role models.

Do you even realize Harrison is 24 years old?

How is it Jack's fault that Harrison still acts immaturely?

mboyle1313
09-22-2006, 06:36 PM
VaFan,

Excellent post. Let me respond to your points as best I can.

You accuse Jackson of:

1) Poor shot selection. I'll give you that, but that puts him in the same class as 99% of all NBA players that average over 10 PPG. I don't defend this trait, but I would submit that Jackson has plenty of company

2) Refusing to pass the ball to a specific player. With all due respect, I haven't seen any indication of this. If you meant to say that he doesn't always pass the ball when he should, then we're back, on some level, to point #1. Otherwise, my inference is that you are suggesting he refuses to pass the ball to a specific player as the result of some personal agenda, and I would respectfully suggest you provide the particulars.

3) Refusing to play defense. Does he get beaten? Of course. Does he defend maniacally on every possession? No. Does anyone (other than Artest)? But I take you to mean that he willfully refuses, and I simply disagree with that viewpoint.

4) Firing up to many 3-point shots. As you suggest, this is an extension of point #1. My response is the same. While I don't disagree with your contention, I don't see why you single Jackson out from those guilty of the same misdeed.

5) Arguing with the refs while his man runs back for an easy bucket. True, and indefensible. However, I would submit that O'Neal was at least as big a violator in this area as Jackson was, and others weren't far behind. I don't defend Jackson here, but I ask again why he is being singled out when he is far from the lone offender.

6) When Artest came back and Jackson said something to the effect of “Don’t worry about them booing you, they boo me and I play for the home team.” This did happen, but you note that "it never dawned on Jackson we were not booing him for his race, his dress, or his lack of skill". As far as I know, he never made any remark that indicated he thought that those things were the genesis for the booing. Did I miss something?

I understand that there are legitimate reasons not to like this player. But the criticisms that I hear most frequently could easily have been applied to multiple members of last year's team. In short, I remain baffled as to why Jackson engenders so much more animus than other players guilty of similar transgressions.

MJB

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 06:43 PM
Mr. Boyle


-

The bashin of Stephen Jackson is unfair in some ways. i think alot of people are more baffled on his attitude in the Locker-room more then anything. i think alot of people underestimate what he brings to the table. i never thought hating Jackson was a race issue if thats the case i must've missed something.

alot of people need to give him a chance. he is human after all... aren't we all?

ABADays
09-22-2006, 06:46 PM
I think JO has been singled out many times for that same trait. It's the one reason he is not seen as a leader. And, I will agree, this applied to a lot of guys on the team the past couple of years.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 06:49 PM
Jermaine O'Neal is a fine leader, not the best but he knows how to talk to guys in the Locker-room the problem is "injuries" thats whats been killin us the last couple of years.

SycamoreKen
09-22-2006, 06:52 PM
After losing Pollard, Harrison's value for the team went up. We trade Harrison and we will get absolutely pounded by bigger centers, especially when JO pulls a muscle and Jeff's hip acts up. BTW, Jeff and JO are not bangers anyway.

I think the summer heat is getting to some people. We go with a finesse-only game and we will get crushed. You get 3 fouls on JO and we are DONE

If Harrison hasn't learned to move his feet and quit picking up fouls quickly like he has in the past, then we still get crushed. I'm not advocating trading him or Jax since I think we now have other options when Jax is having an off night. Both of these guys can be big for us, they just have to play up to their abilities.

NorCal_Pacerfan
09-22-2006, 06:59 PM
I've never really understood the Jax haters, except that I've read again and again from posters here that they dislike his complaining. I don't get to see every game, but I've always liked Stephen and I've sensed that he is a player that cares about the team and someone who really wants to win and get better. He's darned good (although streaky) and he's a rock when it comes to reliability. I'd rather have him than a player that could be really great, but that rarely plays. In otherwords, I don't think moving him is really necessary, and it certainly isn't as important as moving some other players, one in particular.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 07:06 PM
Same reason, people hate Tinsley. no reason to do so its not his fault he gets hurt everytime. people need to lighten up our players deserve more respect....

JayRedd
09-22-2006, 07:08 PM
I understand that there are legitimate reasons not to like this player. But the criticisms that I hear most frequently could easily have been applied to multiple members of last year's team. In short, I remain baffled as to why Jackson engenders so much more animus than other players guilty of similar transgressions.

Honestly, Mark?

It's because he punched a bunch of fans.

I know JO did his part as well. I know this....but JO is a very talented basketball player. Jax is good, but not really good. That's the difference.

Some things in life that happen change the way you're perceived forever. I'm not trying to be all Joe Buck on you, because, personally, I could honestly care less about whether a player is in any way a morally good person or gets in fights with his mother or kicks puppies or what have you.

But that's why he gets booed. That's why a lot of people don't like him. And never will.

To me, if he was better, his baggage would be worth it. But he's just not a true game changer in this League. There are 30 other players that are essentially bring the exact same things to the table that Stephen Jackson does.

So he may as well get traded to a place where every time he puts on the jersey he doesn't remind an entire fanbase of what was one of the worst and most embarrassng (not to mention funniest) moments in NBA history.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 07:13 PM
Honestly, Mark?

It's because he punched a bunch of fans.

Excuse me for saying this, but thats a bunch of CRAPHOLE. if thats the reason then i am ashamed of our fan base. maybe just maybe the race issue is involved.

ajbry
09-22-2006, 07:26 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. If any of you hold a grudge against Jack for 11/19, that is just ridiculous.

Brian
09-22-2006, 07:30 PM
Excuse me for saying this, but thats a bunch of CRAPHOLE. if thats the reason then i am ashamed of our fan base. maybe just maybe the race issue is involved.

Yes that is a craphole.(never heard that word before).But that is what it is.Now I do believe that race is an issue..but I dont know if the people realize that or not.

Black people have their own culture,which their culture isnt about beating people up,smoking weed..etc...They (or anyone from the innercity) have a certain way they talk,act..etc.Just like people from the burbs' have a certain way they do things.

And what alot of america wants is for these black athletes that grew up in the innercity to all of a sudden realize "hey I have money,I need to change the way I act,and talk..etc".Which people dont realize that would be like asking any of us to change the way we talk and act because of a certain situation.Which none of us would like doing,but we would try our best which I do believe Sjax is trying to do.


But I mean for a guy that has played more games that the "heavenly"-JO,Tins,Foster,Pollard (when he was here). He is made to seem like the worst thing that ever happened to the pacers.So I mean if you dont want a 17ppg 75 games per year player on your team thats fine,Im sure that there are a few teams out there that would.


And I do realize it gets a bit tiring watching him get mad after ever call that goes against him or his team,but I like having a guy out there with that kind of passion.But the thing that always stood out to me,not just here on PD,but everywhere..ESPN..other nba boards is this; If white player (a) argues with a ref then its (Look at (insert white player name here) standing up for team,getting a cheer from the home crowd as he gets thrown out).But if black player (b) does the same thing its this-(Well and look at (insert black players name) again,you would think that 8mill per year would make you realize...)

But I dont speak for everyone..that is just my personal opinion.

indygeezer
09-22-2006, 07:30 PM
Excuse me for saying this, but thats a bunch of CRAPHOLE. if thats the reason then i am ashamed of our fan base. maybe just maybe the race issue is involved.

No, maybe just maybe it is seen as something Indiana fans do not appreciate. Now perhaps to the younger fan it is forgivable but as a long time Hoosier basketball fan it is not indicative of what I was taught in my youth. I lost all respect for SJax when he came back off of suspension and yapped at the refs enough to get himself suspended again. Did he learn from this? No, the behavior pattern continues right up to the end of this past season. He doesn't learn that his actions are hurting the TEAM (hmmm that sounds familiar).

Why isn't this criticism hurled at JO? It has been, but this thread was primarily about Jax and so the criticism regards him.

As for the refusing to pass to a certain player, it has been much discussed on this board numerous times that he goes entire games without passing the ball once to Sarunas. I don't thing that Jax appreciates Sara's "leadership" style and shows it by freezing him out (pure speculation on my part). My perception of him may be entirely wrong...but that is the impression he gives and I'm one of the schmoes that pays for the tickets and may refuse to do so if the behavior continues.

I'll tell you this, my new boss has had season tix for over 30 years...he sits behind one of the benches (4-5 rows up), he has vowed that if the issues continue then this will be his last year to purchase those tix. I would highly recommend that TPTB take a harder look at the issues AS PERCEIVED BY THE PAYING FAN and pay attention.

JayRedd
09-22-2006, 07:34 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. If any of you hold a grudge against Jack for 11/19, that is just ridiculous.

I'm guessing most of us on this board don't. We're all pretty savvy fans for the most part and understand what Jackson can and cannot do on a basketball court. And I think that is why most of us do or do not like him as a player.

But I refuse to believe that the tens of thousands of fans who occasionally attend Conseco Fieldhouse and follow the team very passively don't still associate Jackson with that image of him throwing roundhouse punches in the stands....An image that began a two-year downward spiral for this franchise.

You think 40,000 people are really booing him just because he takes too many threes and argues with refs? Like Boyle said, that's something that 80% of NBA players that the average fan can recognize do. One guy I remember that did both was Reggie.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 07:36 PM
No, maybe just maybe it is seen as something Indiana fans do not appreciate. Now perhaps to the younger fan it is forgivable but as a long time Hoosier basketball fan it is not indicative of what I was taught in my youth. I lost all respect for SJax when he came back off of suspension and yapped at the refs enough to get himself suspended again. Did he learn from this? No, the behavior pattern continues right up to the end of this past season. He doesn't learn that his actions are hurting the TEAM (hmmm that sounds familiar).

Why isn't this criticism hurled at JO? It has been, but this thread was primarily about Jax and so the criticism regards him.

As for the refusing to pass to a certain player, it has been much discussed on this board numerous times that he goes entire games without passing the ball once to Sarunas. I don't thing that Jax appreciates Sara's "leadership" style and shows it by freezing him out (pure speculation on my part).

If we're gonna blame Stephen Jackson for the brawl might aswell blame the whole Pacers squad and the fan who had to throw the cup on Ron just to bluster the brawl more worse.

i'm tired of these excuses people make for Jax... he's human PEOPLE hes just like us hes not perfect and so aren't we.

our players deserve more then this... the bash fest is not gonna make us feel better and it's not gonna make us look any better either.. Stephen Jackson knows hes made mistakes ( just like us ) and hes given himself a chance to change himself. and with all due respect it doesn't look like we're giving him the chance because it seems like people don't want to.

indygeezer
09-22-2006, 07:38 PM
Yes that is a craphole.(never heard that word before).But that is what it is.Now I do believe that race is an issue..but I dont know if the people realize that or not.

Black people have their own culture,which their culture isnt about beating people up,smoking weed..etc...They (or anyone from the innercity) have a certain way they talk,act..etc.Just like people from the burbs' have a certain way they do things.

And what alot of america wants is for these black athletes that grew up in the innercity to all of a sudden realize "hey I have money,I need to change the way I act,and talk..etc".Which people dont realize that would be like asking any of us to change the way we talk and act because of a certain situation.Which none of us would like doing,but we would try our best which I do believe Sjax is trying to do.


But I mean for a guy that has played more games that the "heavenly"-JO,Tins,Foster,Pollard (when he was here). He is made to seem like the worst thing that ever happened to the pacers.So I mean if you dont want a 17ppg 75 games per year player on your team thats fine,Im sure that there are a few teams out there that would.


And I do realize it gets a bit tiring watching him get mad after ever call that goes against him or his team,but I like having a guy out there with that kind of passion.But the thing that always stood out to me,not just here on PD,but everywhere..ESPN..other nba boards is this; If white player (a) argues with a ref then its (Look at (insert white player name here) standing up for team,getting a cheer from the home crowd as he gets thrown out).But if black player (b) does the same thing its this-(Well and look at (insert black players name) again,you would think that 8mill per year would make you realize...)

But I dont speak for everyone..that is just my personal opinion.


Heywood Workman, Dale Davis, and Reggie Miller.

vapacersfan
09-22-2006, 07:39 PM
VaFan,

Excellent post. Let me respond to your points as best I can.

You accuse Jackson of:

1) Poor shot selection. I'll give you that, but that puts him in the same class as 99% of all NBA players that average over 10 PPG. I don't defend this trait, but I would submit that Jackson has plenty of company

2) Refusing to pass the ball to a specific player. With all due respect, I haven't seen any indication of this. If you meant to say that he doesn't always pass the ball when he should, then we're back, on some level, to point #1. Otherwise, my inference is that you are suggesting he refuses to pass the ball to a specific player as the result of some personal agenda, and I would respectfully suggest you provide the particulars.

3) Refusing to play defense. Does he get beaten? Of course. Does he defend maniacally on every possession? No. Does anyone (other than Artest)? But I take you to mean that he willfully refuses, and I simply disagree with that viewpoint.

4) Firing up to many 3-point shots. As you suggest, this is an extension of point #1. My response is the same. While I don't disagree with your contention, I don't see why you single Jackson out from those guilty of the same misdeed.

5) Arguing with the refs while his man runs back for an easy bucket. True, and indefensible. However, I would submit that O'Neal was at least as big a violator in this area as Jackson was, and others weren't far behind. I don't defend Jackson here, but I ask again why he is being singled out when he is far from the lone offender.

6) When Artest came back and Jackson said something to the effect of “Don’t worry about them booing you, they boo me and I play for the home team.” This did happen, but you note that "it never dawned on Jackson we were not booing him for his race, his dress, or his lack of skill". As far as I know, he never made any remark that indicated he thought that those things were the genesis for the booing. Did I miss something?

I understand that there are legitimate reasons not to like this player. But the criticisms that I hear most frequently could easily have been applied to multiple members of last year's team. In short, I remain baffled as to why Jackson engenders so much more animus than other players guilty of similar transgressions.

MJB

Thank you for reading through my post Mr. Boyle. I know at times I tend to run on, and I did not get a chance to re-read that post due to my refrigerator deciding to die out on me earlier today.

As for your points, let me address them the same way you did.

1. You are correct. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jackson</st1:place></st1:City> is not the only one, but he is the worst offender of this on our team, in my opinion. He also has a tendency to throw up shots early in the shot clock, which drives me nuts because the set has not been given a chance to be run.

2. I did not want to go this route, but I'll just come out and say it. For the longest time, he would not pass the ball to Runi. Even when Runi was calling for the rock, Jack would just ignore him. I talked to one other poster via PM after one game and he told me he saw the same thing.

3. That's fair. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. For the record, I don’t mind getting beat. I do mind a player simply giving up on a play or refusing to play defense.

4. This is a huge beef I have with all of the Pacers players. I used to love the 3 point shot, and I still do. I do, however, also believe in the old clich&#233; "live by the 3, die by the 3"

5. The whole team was horrible about this, I just thought <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jackson</st1:place></st1:City> was the worst of the bunch.

6. I kind of took that too far, but I felt as if <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jackson</st1:place></st1:City> was saying "They are picking on me". We (the fans) were not.

As a extension of the last one, I don’t know how to answer your last question. Does it stem from the brawl? Maybe. Does is stem from the fact as fans we want to have a scapegoat and after Artest Jackson is the easiest target because of his outbursts? That may be true also.

I do continue to think Jackson is a far worse offender in many of those areas then you seem to think, but as someone said the other day in another thread that is the beauty of internet message boards. You are generally going to disagree with someone just as much, if not more often, and then you agree with them.

Thank you for taking the time to address my post.

McKeyFan
09-22-2006, 07:39 PM
Brian, I just completely disagree with your entire post.

Many of us here put up with a lot of weird Artest stuff (suspensions, giving the finger, etc.) because we LOVED Artest the player.

He's black, by the way.

I also strenuously disagree that fans hate Jax because of 11/19. They boo him for his oncourt behavior, as in, selfish balling, turnovers, low percentage shots.

Indiana loves good basketball and Jax is often the antithesis.

P. S. Somebody find some stats on FG percentage. I have a hard time believing Jax is comparable to other high scorers in the league.

indygeezer
09-22-2006, 07:40 PM
If we're gonna blame Stephen Jackson for the brawl might aswell blame the whole Pacers squad and the fan who had to throw the cup on Ron just to bluster the brawl more worse.

i'm tired of these excuses people make for Jax... he's human PEOPLE hes just like us hes not perfect and so aren't we.

our players deserve more then this... the bash fest is not gonna make us feel better and it's not gonna make us look any better either.. Stephen Jackson knows hes made mistakes ( just like us ) and hes given himself a chance to change himself. and with all due respect it doesn't look like we're giving him the chance because it seems like people don't want to.

Did I blame him for the brawl? Show me where. I blamed him for his actions following his suspension. Read a post before you comment OK? It helps with your cred.

vapacersfan
09-22-2006, 07:44 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. If any of you hold a grudge against Jack for 11/19, that is just ridiculous.

Excuse me for being blunt, but thats "crazy talk".

I dont think we should "hold a grudge" against any of those guys, for after all they are all human. But lets not try to pretend like anyone involved was a innocent bystander, with the exception of a few guys who are not named Jermaine O neal, Ron Artet, or Stephen Jackson.

Jackson did not have to go into the stands, he did not have to come out ready to fight and tugging his shirt like he wanted to box with half the Pistons team when the conflict started.

I am not one to wan to keep living in the past, but that day brought a huge "negative light" on the whole Pacers organization.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 07:44 PM
Did I blame him for the brawl? Show me where. I blamed him for his actions following his suspension. Read a post before you comment OK? It helps with your cred.

No, but it seems like you blame him for every mistake he does. i can tell you right now almost everyone in here has made mistakes... maybe even mistakes they still regret doing. are we gonna discourage them and tell them that you're not gonna change? we're all humans i thought that reason alone would've made us support Stephen Jackson.

ajbry
09-22-2006, 07:47 PM
Excuse me for being blunt, but thats "crazy talk".

I dont think we should "hold a grudge" against any of those guys, for after all they are all human. But lets not try to pretend like anyone involved was a innocent bystander, with the exception of a few guys who are not named Jermaine O neal, Ron Artet, or Stephen Jackson.

Jackson did not have to go into the stands, he did not have to come out ready to fight and tugging his shirt like he wanted to box with half the Pistons team when the conflict started.

I am not one to wan to keep living in the past, but that day brought a huge "negative light" on the whole Pacers organization.

Jack saw his friend and teammate go sprinting into the stands, the result of direct provocation of the fans.

If Freddie was the 2nd one, or Tinsley, you wouldn't dislike them nearly as much as you do Jack. But, since Jack is apparently the "thug" of the team, it makes him much more of a target, in the eyes of the fans. That is brutally obvious.

Brian
09-22-2006, 07:48 PM
Brian, I just completely disagree with your entire post.

Many of us here put up with a lot of weird Artest stuff (suspensions, giving the finger, etc.) because we LOVED Artest the player.

He's black, by the way.

I also strenuously disagree that fans hate Jax because of 11/19. They boo him for his oncourt behavior, as in, selfish balling, turnovers, low percentage shots.

Indiana loves good basketball and Jax is often the antithesis.

P. S. Somebody find some stats on FG percentage. I have a hard time believing Jax is comparable to other high scorers in the league.

Yes you do bring up a good point,and I respect your view.But like I said that is just my opinion.But I think that we (society) give certain people certain things,I do believe that if SJAX were on the same level as an Artest,or JO,Garnett (you get the idea) that everybody would be like "stick by this guy,he is a good guy,just had a rough childhood..etc..)

But since he is player that he is,he doesnt get that pass.People just put that "outta control ghetto guy with money" tag on him.Which I dont think is right.


But thats why we are the society that we are.

vapacersfan
09-22-2006, 07:49 PM
Brian, I just completely disagree with your entire post.

Many of us here put up with a lot of weird Artest stuff (suspensions, giving the finger, etc.) because we LOVED Artest the player.

He's black, by the way.

I also strenuously disagree that fans hate Jax because of 11/19. They boo him for his oncourt behavior, as in, selfish balling, turnovers, low percentage shots.

Indiana loves good basketball and Jax is often the antithesis.

P. S. Somebody find some stats on FG percentage. I have a hard time believing Jax is comparable to other high scorers in the league.

QFT!

I made a mistake by even mentioning race in my first post, I was just trying to exadgerate to make a point.

vapacersfan
09-22-2006, 07:52 PM
Yes you do bring up a good point,and I respect your view.But like I said that is just my opinion.But I think that we (society) give certain people certain things,I do believe that if SJAX were on the same level as an Artest,or JO,Garnett (you get the idea) that everybody would be like "stick by this guy,he is a good guy,just had a rough childhood..etc..)

But since he is player that he is,he doesnt get that pass.People just put that "outta control ghetto guy with money" tag on him.Which I dont think is right.


But thats why we are the society that we are.

I agree with your first part, I do not agree with your second part at all.

I think that is a broad overgenerization of ignorant people in society, which I would argue is 1% of our society, it that.

I am going to go get some food, but I will say this. I work with kids who are from the ghettos of DC. I know whats its like to be around both cultures. Hell, I am accused of speaking two languages: English and Ebonics.

I do think you are right if he was a better player he would get a pass for his poor attitude. I do not think that has ANYTHING to do with race.

indygeezer
09-22-2006, 07:52 PM
No, but it seems like you blame him for every mistake he does. i can tell you right now almost everyone in here has made mistakes... maybe even mistakes they still regret doing. are we gonna discourage them and tell them that you're not gonna change? we're all humans i thought that reason alone would've made us support Stephen Jackson.


Did you read my post earlier that said I was willing to give him one more chance?


Do I blame him? Yeah, I hold him accountable for his actions. Do I know everything that goes on? Nope...do you? I just buy tickets and excersize my right to form an opinion based upon what I see on the floor and read in the media. Should I be flogged for this? Wow, I hope not...it is afterall, my money and my opinion. It is my right to refuse to support a product I don't like. Would you force me to pay to see a movie I dislike???

I prefer Jax gone but have said I'm willing to give him one more chance. Failing that chance........

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 07:53 PM
The Stephen Jackson bashin is RIDICLOUS the more we bash him the more we're gonna make ourselfs look 'Less human'. what makes the sports so critical and makes you Human is supporting you're players through the tough times i guess we do not have that.

JayRedd
09-22-2006, 07:53 PM
Brian, I just completely disagree with your entire post.

Many of us here put up with a lot of weird Artest stuff (suspensions, giving the finger, etc.) because we LOVED Artest the player.

He's black, by the way.

I also strenuously disagree that fans hate Jax because of 11/19. They boo him for his oncourt behavior, as in, selfish balling, turnovers, low percentage shots.

Indiana loves good basketball and Jax is often the antithesis.

P. S. Somebody find some stats on FG percentage. I have a hard time believing Jax is comparable to other high scorers in the league.

I think you'd be right.

Jax is a career 41.9% shooter. He's 41.1% and 40.3% in his two years with us.

Only other "marquee scorer" I could find close to that low is Iverson (wasn't a very thorough check. I imagine I'm leaving someone out). AI is a career 42.1% and has five seasons under 42%. Although he was 44.7% last year (his "career year" IMO).

The guy I always consider his NBA "twin" is Ricky Davis, who is actually a career 44.9% guy, including a stretch of three straight seasons of 48%, 46%, and 46% until last year's 42.9%. Who knew? Seems to prove my point that SJax is just a poor man's Ricky Davis.

vapacersfan
09-22-2006, 07:53 PM
Jack saw his friend and teammate go sprinting into the stands, the result of direct provocation of the fans.

If Freddie was the 2nd one, or Tinsley, you wouldn't dislike them nearly as much as you do Jack. But, since Jack is apparently the "thug" of the team, it makes him much more of a target, in the eyes of the fans. That is brutally obvious.

I think its funny you are able to tell me how I would feel if it was anyone else.

If Freedie was antagonzing the way Jackson was, and then ran into the crowd I would feel just as stronly about him as I would Jackson. (Notice only one person in this thread used the word "thug")

That is brutally obvious!

JayRedd
09-22-2006, 08:02 PM
I believe both of you that said my "It's because he punched a bunch of fans" comment was "ridiculous" and "craphole" have now said that fans do hold this, and his "thug" image against him. Yes...it is probably something to be ashamed of. Yes...We're all human and make mistakes. Yes...he probably deserves some second chances in life.

But this not real life. It's a sports arena where people go to escape real life. And NBA fans do not think about right or wrong when they are in an arena trying to decide whether or not they should join in the chant of boos they hear around the arena.

Morality is how things should be. Reality is how they are. And the reality, as I tried to say before, is that a lot of midwestern, casual basketball fans go to a game and boo Stephen Jackson (possibly after a few beers) because they saw him punch a fan and their favorite team has been terrible since that day.

Argue the morality of it. But the reality is plain and obvious. (Yes...race is probably a factor too. But I'm not going there right now.)

ajbry
09-22-2006, 08:02 PM
I think its funny you are able to tell me how I would feel if it was anyone else.

If Freedie was antagonzing the way Jackson was, and then ran into the crowd I would feel just as stronly about him as I would Jackson. (Notice only one person in this thread used the word "thug")

That is brutally obvious!

Are you kidding me? I have seen threads here (completely irrelevant to basketball) regarding Jack's childhood, something about him being involved with the Bloods, etc.

What other players do you guys treat like that?

Harrison has done nothing here, and most of you treat him like a god - to make a quick example.

lumber man
09-22-2006, 08:07 PM
FlavaDave,

Private conversations I've had on that subject, if any, must remain so.

That said, I think people that listen to our broadcasts are aware that I am a Stephen Jackson advocate. This is not to say that I think Jackson (or any other player, for that matter) is without fault. In fact, I've been critical of his periodic on court peccadilloes on more than one occasion. Still, though it is occasionally misdirected, I admire his passion and am very impressed by his commitement to being on the floor through pain and the type of nagging injuries that often cause other players to sit.

In short, while I personally would never consider any player untouchable, this is one player I would have no difficulty having on my team if I were in charge.

MJB

P.S.: On an unrelated note, that is a great avatar, Fool. I look forward to your posts, just so I can enjoy it.
Man, that made my day! (Coming from Mr. Boyle and all.)

McKeyFan
09-22-2006, 08:09 PM
I believe both of you that said my "It's because he punched a bunch of fans" comment was "ridiculous" and "craphole" have now said that fans do hold this, and his "thug" image against him. Yes...it is probably something to be ashamed of. Yes...We're all human and make mistakes. Yes...he probably deserves some second chances in life.

But this not real life. It's a sports arena where people go to escape real life. And NBA fans do not think about right or wrong when they are in an arena trying to decide whether or not they should join in the chant of boos they hear around the arena.

Morality is how things should be. Reality is how they are. And the reality, as I tried to say before, is that a lot of midwestern, casual basketball fans go to a game and boo Stephen Jackson (possibly after a few beers) because they saw him punch a fan and their favorite team has been terrible since that day.

Argue the morality of it. But the reality is plain and obvious. (Yes...race is probably a factor too. But I'm not going there right now.)

I hear ya, but why didn't they boo Artest (except on a couple of occasions)? Indiana fans loved Ronnie.

Why? He played great, smart, fundamental basketball. I just disagree that they boo Jackson for 11/19. It's the poor basketball attitude and IQ.

P. S. In the same we that we differentiate between plain IQ and Basketball IQ, maybe we need to start doing the same with normal attitude and bball attitude, i.e. Jax's attitude may be good in general (off the court) but his bball attitude sucks (selfish, streaky with effort, defiant to the coach, yelling at refs, you know the drill.)

vapacersfan
09-22-2006, 08:09 PM
Are you kidding me? I have seen threads here (completely irrelevant to basketball) regarding Jack's childhood, something about him being involved with the Bloods, etc.

What other players do you guys treat like that?

Harrison has done nothing here, and most of you treat him like a god - to make a quick example.

Last post on this:

I am far from one to treat DH like a God, not really sure who you are talking about with that.

As for Jax, I have read articles where he admits to running with a gang. I guess its possible I missed the thread(s), but I never said any threads here that mentioned that.

Big Smooth
09-22-2006, 08:15 PM
Ok, but give one good reason why the Clippers would want Jack?

His dashing good looks will increase the female attendance at Clippers games?

*shrugs*

I have a hard time seeing this trade going down. If it did happen, sure I'd be pretty excited. Not so much about losing SJax but excited to obtain Maggette. I don't hate the guy at all but Maggette intrigues me.

JayRedd
09-22-2006, 08:18 PM
I hear ya, but why didn't they boo Artest (except on a couple of occasions)? Indiana fans loved Ronnie.

Why? He played great, smart, fundamental basketball. I just disagree that they boo Jackson for 11/19. It's the poor basketball attitude and IQ.

P. S. In the same we that we differentiate between plain IQ and Basketball IQ, maybe we need to start doing the same with normal attitude and bball attitude, i.e. Jax's attitude may be good in general (off the court) but his bball attitude sucks (selfish, streaky with effort, defiant to the coach, yelling at refs, you know the drill.)

Like you say, they didn't boo Ron Ron cause he's a really, really good basketball player. (I said the same thing in my first post about JO).

Stephen Jackson is a slightly above average basketball player when you look at his all around package. But again...to the casual fan, he's looked at as not even average given his a) shot selection, b) arguing, c) attitude, d) generally below average bball IQ.

So like I've been saying....He is disliked a) because he's not all that great, and b) he punched a bunch of fans.

Croshere and Foster also fit into category A. JO and Ron Ron fit into category B.

SJax is the one guy in both categories.

lumber man
09-22-2006, 08:21 PM
(quoted from Brian)Yes that is a craphole.(never heard that word before).But that is what it is.:laugh:

pizza guy
09-22-2006, 08:34 PM
For me, the brawl has nothing to do with my distaste for Jack. I hold onto a grudge against the Pistons, and Ben Wallace specifically, but no Pacers (just for you KStat ;) ).

But Jackson has hurt the team continually since then with poor play and emotional outbursts. Yes, Jackson has brought us wins because at times he was our best player, he was healthy or at least played through pain, and he always leaves it on the court. He probably takes more heat than he deserves, in truth.

But aside from arguing with the refs, and with his coach, Jackson does not have a good basketball IQ. This may well be the biggest beef I have with him. Yes, Mark, many of the qualities we complain about with Jackson are shared by some of the league's best; but Jackson is not among the league's best. He certainly does have some talent, but he is, by no stretch of the imagination, AI or Kobe. He's not even Ricky Davis.

For me, and I think for most, race is not a factor. As was said before, Hoosiers like good basketball and Jackson frankly has not been what Hoosiers like. The race issue, while valid with some people, is overused in my opinion. I think it has less to do with the "thug" image, and more to do with poor basketball.

I'd also like to add that Jackson isn't as bad of a player as many make him out to be. The problem came in the time when JO was down, and we hadn't yet traded for Peja. It was just Jackson. Sure, other guys, especially AJ, stepped up, but Jackson was the clear cut first option. Upon being thrust into that spotlight, all of Jackson's flaws were magnified instead of hidden by the likes of JO and JTins. Then, when those players came back, we had already seen the problems with Jackson and didn't forget. As we talked about it more and more, his problems got worse and worse in our conversations.

He isn't as bad as many of us make him out to be, but I think guys like ajbry might be giving him a little too much love.

ABADays
09-22-2006, 08:35 PM
Harrison has done nothing here, and most of you treat him like a god - to make a quick example.

Huh? Treated like a God? Did I miss something? When? Where? Harrison does have the potential to be more of a factor than Jackson ever will because of his position.

Anthem
09-22-2006, 08:56 PM
2. I did not want to go this route, but I'll just come out and say it. For the longest time, he would not pass the ball to Runi. Even when Runi was calling for the rock, Jack would just ignore him.
I'll echo this. I kept hearing people say this, and thought it was crazy talk. Then I saw it. Again and again and again. Jack simply would not pass the ball to Sarunas.

Jer_Freak
09-22-2006, 09:27 PM
Jack simply would not pass the ball to Sarunas.

You think it's a race issue or Sarunas bricks shots everytime and that prevets Jack from passing the ball to him?

BlueNGold
09-22-2006, 09:45 PM
Are you kidding me? I have seen threads here (completely irrelevant to basketball) regarding Jack's childhood, something about him being involved with the Bloods, etc.

What other players do you guys treat like that?

Harrison has done nothing here, and most of you treat him like a god - to make a quick example.

Harrison has proven nothing. He has done very little on the court. Fans see an athletic, physical center with good offensive skills and get excited. I suspect if he has a brain, he will be a good player, maybe very good player some day. As for me wanting to hang onto Harrison, it is not specific to him. It has everything to do with having a real center on the team for a couple reasons.

First, there is size. We sometimes need someone to body up to players like Yao, Shaq, Zo, and even scrubs that beat up Jeff an JO and force them to get in foul trouble like Al Jefferson, Eddy Curry, Brendan Heywood, Etan Thomas...and thugs like Danny Fortson. If JO needs to handle these guys, he will get in foul trouble and we cannot afford that. This list only includes Miami, Boston and Washington from the Eastern conference...but they are all playoff teams.

Second, there is toughness. We need some toughness in the middle along the lines of a Dale Davis/Ben Wallace/Sam Dalembert type. This is actually quite different from the first point. I don't think DH fits the Dale Davis mold, but he is closer than anything else we have. I want players who drive to the basket to have some degree of fear. Intimidation is still part of the game, particularly on defense. Jeff and JO lack that degree of toughness.

What it comes down to is, we need a C with either size or toughness. Most teams have a player with one of these attributes. I don't think Jeff and JO have either of these attributes.

What's even worse is, they both have a history of health problems and we would have no depth at all without DH. If DH is gone and Jeff or JO goes down, it would simply be curtains....or maybe Samaki Walker could lead us to a championship. :-o

McKeyFan
09-22-2006, 10:02 PM
You think it's a race issue or Sarunas bricks shots everytime and that prevets Jack from passing the ball to him?

It's not a race issue, it's a "Jackson is a jerk" issue.

Even if Jackson is right, this is not how you handle the problem. Talk about chemistry problems.

And, yes, it was extremely noticable, and it was obvious to me before anyone posted it on PD.

Ralph Snart
09-22-2006, 10:10 PM
I don't think this is a good trade at all. I think next year Jackson's role will be perfect for the type of player he is - 3rd/2nd scoring option, much less pressure to carry the team.

Half of our roster players are new. Two of them have only been here for a year. That's 10 guys that have been Pacers for a year or less. Do we really need to bring new blood in to replace our healthiest player?

We've been talking for months, and it seems to me our biggest concerns going into next year are 1) Tinsley's health, and 2) Our lack of size. Trading Jackson and Harrison (or anyone else) for Magette does not address either issue. It reads like pure fantasy to me.

D-BONE
09-22-2006, 10:19 PM
VaFan,


I understand that there are legitimate reasons not to like this player. But the criticisms that I hear most frequently could easily have been applied to multiple members of last year's team. In short, I remain baffled as to why Jackson engenders so much more animus than other players guilty of similar transgressions.

MJB

Very well said. This perfectly crystalizes one theme I've always maintained about Jack. It's not that some of the criticism isn't valid. Just explain why to me in any logical and objective way how those same criticisms are virtually never leveled against against others who have some of the same tendencies. And I mean I'm perceiving these issues about other players from my observations as a fan.

I think there are multiple players on the squad whose play and, IMO, "gunning" at least noticeably resembled Jack's. JO and Tins are two that come to mind. Perhaps, returning to the chemistry point, we need to at least consider the possibility that it's many players on our team failing to buy completely into the team ethic and instead being overconcerned about the stat and other individual concerns.

Arcadian
09-22-2006, 10:29 PM
I'm not a big Jackson fan but that has more to do with his being a poor ball handler and streaky shooter. He isn't a talented enough player to make up for those things. His attitude is secondary to me.

However, the reason I think that Jackson gets more "hate" from the fans is that he doesn't even try to say the right things. He also whines to the media at the wrong times that he should have been guarding Carter (this years playoffs) or that it was his fault we lost (last years playoffs). He carries himself in an extremely unapolagetic manner.

I guess I'd ask those who wonder why Jackson is singled out why do you think he is singled out? Please, don't say race or that he is "real."

jjbjjbjjb
09-22-2006, 10:35 PM
I guess I'd ask those who wonder why Jackson is singled out why do you think he is singled out? Please, don't say race or that he is "real."

In other words, "Answer the question, but don't use the correct answer."

D-BONE
09-22-2006, 10:39 PM
I hear ya, but why didn't they boo Artest (except on a couple of occasions)? Indiana fans loved Ronnie.

Why? He played great, smart, fundamental basketball. I just disagree that they boo Jackson for 11/19. It's the poor basketball attitude and IQ.



I liked Artest, too. Mainly for his intensity and defense. I'm not sure I'd describe his overall game as smart or fundamental. What about his basketball IQ during one of his better years with the flagrant on Rip Hamilton in game 6 ECF? He jacked his share of questionably timed 3s at times, as well. And, of course, how about flying into the stands in Detroit? Not the quintessential sign of BB IQ if you're taking into account putting your team's season at stake.

Jose Slaughter
09-22-2006, 10:43 PM
Jackson's on court behavior can be corrected with four little words......

Stephen, have a seat.

It won't help everything, but its a start.

Will Galen
09-22-2006, 10:48 PM
VaFan,

I understand that there are legitimate reasons not to like this player. But the criticisms that I hear most frequently could easily have been applied to multiple members of last year's team. In short, I remain baffled as to why Jackson engenders so much more animus than other players guilty of similar transgressions.

MJB

He played in more games than everyone else. (giggle,giggle,snort)

Arcadian
09-22-2006, 10:52 PM
In other words, "Answer the question, but don't use the correct answer."

No, because it is demeaning at worse or silly at best to the fans and players.

We have many other players who are also Blacks and they are not singled out. All four of the retired player Jerseys are of Black players. What about Black people who single out Jackson? That means either those players weren't "Black" enough to be hated which is demeaning, or that the argument has no merit making it silly.

I'm done with the subject so it doesn't ruin the thread.

MagicRat
09-22-2006, 11:12 PM
.....it's a "Jackson is a jerk" issue.

That shouldn't be an issue. He warned everybody about it when he came here. It even came with a photo.......


http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/sjjerk.jpg
Jackson promised at his introductory news conference in July to be "the biggest jerk in the locker room if we're losing."



"I'm labeled as a jerk right now, you know what I mean? But I love it. I've been a jerk all my life. My momma loves this jerk. My kids love this jerk. I'm going to be a jerk in a good way, though. I'm going to be a jerk to the other teams and just go out there and play basketball. I can do that." - Stephen Jackson (after the brawl suspension)

ajbry
09-22-2006, 11:29 PM
MagicRat, you're a jerk. :(

MagicRat
09-22-2006, 11:51 PM
MagicRat, you're a jerk. :(


I'm labeled as a jerk right now, you know what I mean? But I love it. I've been a jerk all my life. My momma loves this jerk. My kids love this jerk. I'm going to be a jerk in a good way, though. I'm going to be a jerk on the other team's message boards and just go out there and make goofy pictures. I can do that." - MagicRat (after ajbry called him a jerk)

Eindar
09-22-2006, 11:53 PM
You think it's a race issue or Sarunas bricks shots everytime and that prevets Jack from passing the ball to him?

Last year's FG and 3P%:

Jackson .411 and .345
Jasikevicius .396 and .364

Given those stats, "Jack" is just as big a bricklayer as Sarunas. But that stat doesn't even tell the whole story. Let's look at a smaller snapshot, which is the two players before Sarunas hit the rookie wall:


Jackson .420 and .354
Jasikevicius .433 and .401

Those stats are far more telling. Keep in mind, I used Jax's stats over the same period so there can be no excuses due to different samples.

ajbry
09-22-2006, 11:59 PM
How can you compare Jack and Saras in that context?

Jack, primarily being the top option last year, would always have the other team's best perimeter defender on him, as well as plenty of double-teams. Saras, on the other hand, usually played against the backups (a lot of pressure getting the ball past halfcourt, but hardly any double-teams).

I love Jack's game the way it is, however, he could improve his shot selection a bit, I can't disagree with that.

Eindar
09-23-2006, 12:02 AM
I'm labeled as a jerk right now, you know what I mean? But I love it. I've been a jerk all my life. My momma loves this jerk. My kids love this jerk. I'm going to be a jerk in a good way, though. I'm going to be a jerk on the other team's message boards and just go out there and make goofy pictures. I can do that." - MagicRat (after ajbry called him a jerk)

Seeing your avatar, apparently your daughter's a jerk too, or at least, she's wearing the uniform :)

Eindar
09-23-2006, 12:04 AM
In other words, "Answer the question, but don't use the correct answer."

You know, it takes a lot of balls to come accuse people of being racist because they don't like Stephen Jackson when those same people spent 2 years pulling for Ron Artest to get it together, and also worship Reggie Miller like he's Jesus in Sneakers.

I'm going to address why people don't like Jax that much, but I have to dig for the proper post to reply to. Yours isn't it.

Eindar
09-23-2006, 12:09 AM
How can you compare Jack and Saras in that context?

Jack, primarily being the top option last year, would always have the other team's best perimeter defender on him, as well as plenty of double-teams. Saras, on the other hand, usually played against the backups (a lot of pressure getting the ball past halfcourt, but hardly any double-teams).

I love Jack's game the way it is, however, he could improve his shot selection a bit, I can't disagree with that.

The question was, "Why doesn't Jack pass Sarunas the ball?". I don't need to take double-teams into account, because that's precisely the reason he should be passing the ball to Sarunas, but isn't. Regardless, the stats don't lie in this instance. If we were talking about flat-out who's the better shooter in an empty gym, or guarded 1-on-1, it's probably very close. But we're talking in perspective about Jackson and Sarunas on the floor together, who should be shooting. The answer is Sarunas, especially if Jackson is being focused on.

Eindar
09-23-2006, 12:16 AM
VaFan,

Excellent post. Let me respond to your points as best I can.

You accuse Jackson of:

1) Poor shot selection. I'll give you that, but that puts him in the same class as 99% of all NBA players that average over 10 PPG. I don't defend this trait, but I would submit that Jackson has plenty of company

2) Refusing to pass the ball to a specific player. With all due respect, I haven't seen any indication of this. If you meant to say that he doesn't always pass the ball when he should, then we're back, on some level, to point #1. Otherwise, my inference is that you are suggesting he refuses to pass the ball to a specific player as the result of some personal agenda, and I would respectfully suggest you provide the particulars.

3) Refusing to play defense. Does he get beaten? Of course. Does he defend maniacally on every possession? No. Does anyone (other than Artest)? But I take you to mean that he willfully refuses, and I simply disagree with that viewpoint.

4) Firing up to many 3-point shots. As you suggest, this is an extension of point #1. My response is the same. While I don't disagree with your contention, I don't see why you single Jackson out from those guilty of the same misdeed.

5) Arguing with the refs while his man runs back for an easy bucket. True, and indefensible. However, I would submit that O'Neal was at least as big a violator in this area as Jackson was, and others weren't far behind. I don't defend Jackson here, but I ask again why he is being singled out when he is far from the lone offender.

6) When Artest came back and Jackson said something to the effect of “Don’t worry about them booing you, they boo me and I play for the home team.” This did happen, but you note that "it never dawned on Jackson we were not booing him for his race, his dress, or his lack of skill". As far as I know, he never made any remark that indicated he thought that those things were the genesis for the booing. Did I miss something?

I understand that there are legitimate reasons not to like this player. But the criticisms that I hear most frequently could easily have been applied to multiple members of last year's team. In short, I remain baffled as to why Jackson engenders so much more animus than other players guilty of similar transgressions.

MJB


This is vafan's criteria for what makes a bad teammate and Mr. Boyle's response.

I postulate that while certain players are guilty of one or two of these characteristics, Jack currently fills more of these than anyone else on the team, which is why he is villified. Part of it isn't his fault. I think he's been asked to do too much by the team, due to all the injuries the past couple years, and as a result, he makes more boneheaded decisions than usual, because he's playing outside his comfort zone. But I think fans were looking for a scapegoat, and they found an easy one in Jax.

Fool
09-23-2006, 12:18 AM
Let's look at a smaller snapshot, which is the two players before Sarunas hit the rookie wall

Your first stat is much more compelling. The quoted sentence pretty much declares "Now look at this selective set of numbers that was chosen specifically to bias the comparison towards Sarunas."

Eindar
09-23-2006, 12:24 AM
Your first stat is much more compelling. The quoted sentence pretty much declares "Now look at this selective set of numbers that was chosen specifically to bias the comparison towards Sarunas."

Do you believe Sarunas hit the rookie wall? If so, then defend your statement. How would you like for me to break it down? Do you believe he'll be a better player than the entire season's worth of work last year? I do.

Look, don't criticize me unless you're prepared to offer a better solution. I offered 2 sets of date, one for the entire season, one for a "pre-wall" Sarunas. If you think you can do better, do it. Otherwise.....

Fool
09-23-2006, 12:46 AM
I think exactly what I posted, that your first stat is more compelling and far less bias. You seem to have taken my comment personally or something but I'm simply stating a fact about using statistics. Anyone can arbitrarily take only a sub sample of a certain stat to make it look like player X performed better than he actually did. This is exactly what that second stat comparison does. Its like taking shot stats only from games Jackson shot over 50% for the game and saying "See, Jackson is a great shooter. Why should he ever pass to Sarunas?"

As for the "rookie wall", I think that I just sat through an entire WC where fans of Euroleague stars repeated over and over how their players play 60+ games when it all comes down to it (this was in reply to the charge that European players played less games and so had more time and energy to devote to things like the WC) and so I think the amount of games a 30 year old basketball veteran should be used to playing is too often used in whatever way it makes Sarunas look better.

Eindar
09-23-2006, 01:25 AM
I think exactly what I posted, that your first stat is more compelling and far less bias. You seem to have taken my comment personally or something but I'm simply stating a fact about using statistics. Anyone can arbitrarily take only a sub sample of a certain stat to make it look like player X performed better than he actually did. This is exactly what that second stat comparison does. Its like taking shot stats only from games Jackson shot over 50% for the game and saying "See, Jackson is a great shooter. Why should he ever pass to Sarunas?"

As for the "rookie wall", I think that I just sat through an entire WC where fans of Euroleague stars repeated over and over how their players play 60+ games when it all comes down to it (this was in reply to the charge that European players played less games and so had more time and energy to devote to things like the WC) and so I think the amount of games a 30 year old basketball veteran should be used to playing is too often used in whatever way it makes Sarunas look better.

1st bold: The problem with what you're saying is that that's a completely arbitrary way of doing things, and is in no way similar to acknowledging a known factor for rookies regardless of age or station (probably actually worse for a guy like Sarunas, but I'll get to that) and attempting to remove that factor from the equation.

2nd bold: You think I'm some sort of Euro Sarunas apologist? Look around, I've been here for a while, and rarely ever defend Sarunas. Do I care what opinion Euro fans have on what their players can and can't do? No, so don't lump me in with them. This has nothing to do with the WBC, and actually, has little to do with the actual number of games played, vs. the pace at which they are played.

First, even with the WBC/Olympics, Euro players play around 65 games per year. That's still 20 less than any playoff team. Second, they space those 65 games over 10 months, whereas NBA playoff teams play 85+ over the course of 6 months. This is actually the more important variable. In Euroleague, teams get to hang out at home for a couple days, travel to where they're going, hang out a couple days, play a game, rinse, repeat. Meanwhile, the pace of the NBA schedule means you're rarely in the same city for 2 nights in a row for a 6 month stretch, and even when you have a home stand, you're likely away from "home" as a rookie, having just moved to this new city a few months earlier, and you practice every day you don't play, and you're likely going to play roughly every other day. You claim that it should be easier for a 30 year old "veteran". I believe it's more a matter of your body's ability to recover from prolonged wear and tear. That being true, it would be harder for a 30 year old rookie than, say, a 22 year old rookie. Regardless, no Euro or college schedule can keep up with the grind that is an NBA season, Euro fans who don't know that are uninformed/intentionally ignorant, and you should know better than to try to use that as your argument.

The facts are that there is a rookie wall, that Sarunas is susceptible to said rookie wall, and that he hit it. How would you like me to estimate that. I'll use whatever formula you'd prefer, but I felt my method was fairly solid. Feel free to come up with a better solution on statistically addressing the rookie wall at any time, by the way, I'm all ears.

jjbjjbjjb
09-23-2006, 02:00 AM
You know, it takes a lot of balls to come accuse people of being racist because they don't like Stephen Jackson when those same people spent 2 years pulling for Ron Artest to get it together, and also worship Reggie Miller like he's Jesus in Sneakers.

If you can tell me honestly that, were Reggie Miller white, he would have been no more (and no less) popular throughout his career than he was, then, sure, we can drop race entirely from the equation.

People are complicated bundles of characteristics, so it's more than race, obviously, because Jackson is an individual. And yet, race is part of it; if he behaved the same way on the court and yet he were white, it would not be completely different, but I will claim that it would be somewhat different.

The effects of race don't always manifest themselves in dislike, either. Sometimes there is overcompensation, or paternalism, or even just pure self-consciousness. But race is always there - it is overt, it's visible, that's why it never goes away.

I'm not any better or different...I see race and it affects my judgments too. The key is to be aware of it and not to pretend that its effect is always zero. Sure, a lot of times, the effect is very close to zero. Maybe this is one of those times, I don't know. But it doesn't seem that way to me.

Eindar
09-23-2006, 02:30 AM
The only time it's overt is when someone, like yourself, makes it an issue. I never think in terms of race. That may be because I was raised that way, and my parents made it a point to not even consider skin tone with dealing with people, but there it is.

And yes, I can say that Reggie Miller's race had 0 effect, positive or negative, on his popularity in this community.

JayRedd
09-23-2006, 02:32 AM
September basketball: It's FANNNNN-tastic

Leisure Suit Larry
09-23-2006, 03:12 AM
Yeah so this is not going to happen so quit making stuff up. We need to keep Jackson.

naptown
09-23-2006, 03:36 AM
I aint even believing this race crap I am reading. The only problem I have with Jax is that he is very often a bonehead and makes bonehead decisions. ANY PLAYER... white or black that consistently makes bonehead decisions I would have a problem with.

You people that are bringing race into this are the biggest BONEHEADS OF ALL. Racism is TAUGHT. It is not an inherited trait. And the biggest teacher of racism is the Media and our Government.

The last thing they want is a society united. They want as many divisions amongst the populace as possible. Black/white, smokers/non smokers, republicans/democrats, Christian/jew/muslim..... why do you mindless sheep think they try and label and classify everything they possibly can? To keep the masses divided. And it is so very easy to do because very few people have the ability to think for themselves.

Pardon my rant.... but breaking out the racism card really pisses me off. Mindless idiots.

Jose Slaughter
09-23-2006, 07:34 AM
1. Jackson & Sarunas are teammates.

2. Basketball is a team sport

3. A little ball movement is a good thing.

I had a longer rant thing working here but ............... why bother.

Anthem
09-23-2006, 08:59 AM
Regardless of whether or not Jack is the devil, surely we can all agree that around the league, Maggette is considered to be a more valuable player.

RamBo_Lamar
09-23-2006, 09:11 AM
LMAO - so what started as a completely unsubstantiated "rumor", quite possibly
started by the original poster, has now gotten to 9 pages.

More and more I am reminded of the boy who once saw a hornets nest hanging
from a tree branch. For the sake of being mischeivous, he found a long stick
to whack the nest with, just so he could see a cloud of angered hornets come
swarming out the bottom, frantically buzzing about in search of the antagonizer.
Of course, he took off running to avoid being stung.

See any similarities here? ;)

indygeezer
09-23-2006, 09:34 AM
LMAO - so what started as a completely unsubstantiated "rumor", quite possibly
started by the original poster, has now gotten to 9 pages.

More and more I am reminded of the boy who once saw a hornets nest hanging
from a tree branch. For the sake of being mischeivous, he found a long stick
to whack the nest with, just so he could see a cloud of angered hornets come
swarming out the bottom, frantically buzzing about in search of the antagonizer.
Of course, he took off running to avoid being stung.

See any similarities here? ;)

If you're saying Hoop is a flamer or troll I'll respectfully disagree. He's been around for quite a while. He had 3 posts in the 1st two pages of this tome and then the thread took off on the usual tangent. All threads discussing ANY player always degenerates into a "discussion" between those that love the guy and the "haters", and enevitably someone will resort to using the issue there is no arguement for or against.
Every player related thread follows this pattern and it is why I rarely post in them anymore.

Kaufman
09-23-2006, 09:51 AM
LMAO - so what started as a completely unsubstantiated "rumor", quite possibly
started by the original poster, has now gotten to 9 pages.

More and more I am reminded of the boy who once saw a hornets nest hanging
from a tree branch. For the sake of being mischeivous, he found a long stick
to whack the nest with, just so he could see a cloud of angered hornets come
swarming out the bottom, frantically buzzing about in search of the antagonizer.
Of course, he took off running to avoid being stung.

See any similarities here? ;)

You know, if you think that the people who post here are frauds, then you should have thought twice before joining this site. While Geez respectfully disagrees with your allegations, I disrespectfully disagree with you. Please stop posting here if you are going to shoot down members who have been here for far longer than you have, it isn't wanted nor is it appreciated.

ABADays
09-23-2006, 10:46 AM
Good God - 4500+ views!

Pacers#1Fan
09-23-2006, 11:08 AM
This has to be the biggest thread about a rumored trade that has had absolutely ZERO confirmation in the history of PacersDigest. It's interesting really. I wonder if it is the collective hatred of Stephen Jackson by Pacers fans or the excitement of another trade. Or is it that everyone thinks that this trade could make us that much better. Just a little side note. Personally I would love for this trade to go down but... in all the likelihood in the world it's not going to happen.

Kstat
09-23-2006, 11:20 AM
Maybe it's because everyone is bored....nah.

SycamoreKen
09-23-2006, 11:24 AM
I liked Artest, too. Mainly for his intensity and defense. I'm not sure I'd describe his overall game as smart or fundamental. What about his basketball IQ during one of his better years with the flagrant on Rip Hamilton in game 6 ECF? He jacked his share of questionably timed 3s at times, as well. And, of course, how about flying into the stands in Detroit? Not the quintessential sign of BB IQ if you're taking into account putting your team's season at stake.

I agree with your point here and was going to touch on it last night, but didn't have time. How can a guy that blew 3 seasons for us with stupid behavior on and off the court and did the same thing in the playoffs for Sac Town this past season have a high basketball IQ? Everything I've read about Ron states that he is a great guy off the court like Jackson, but he is one of the most selfish and unintelligent teammates I have ever seen. Jackson has done far less damage to this team and his teammates than Artest ever did.


Jackson's on court behavior can be corrected with four little words......

Stephen, have a seat.

It won't help everything, but its a start.

As I stated before, we now have the depth to do just that. It's interesting that the team most recognized for making sure they have "character" guys, the Spurs, would have resigned Jax if he and his agent hadn't overvalued him after the second title run.


That shouldn't be an issue. He warned everybody about it when he came here. It even came with a photo.......


http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/sjjerk.jpg
Jackson promised at his introductory news conference in July to be "the biggest jerk in the locker room if we're losing."



"I'm labeled as a jerk right now, you know what I mean? But I love it. I've been a jerk all my life. My momma loves this jerk. My kids love this jerk. I'm going to be a jerk in a good way, though. I'm going to be a jerk to the other teams and just go out there and play basketball. I can do that." - Stephen Jackson (after the brawl suspension)

Jax is Jax. I cringed last season when he took bad shots and had the ball in certain situations, but at least he brings it every night. I put some of the blame on the coaches for not using him correctly and not taking him out of those situations when he might make the wrong choice.