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View Full Version : Q.O.D. 9/19/06



Peck
09-19-2006, 03:36 AM
We talk a lot about our strengths in the frontcourt & we have even talked about some of the excitement of some of the new guys in the back court.

However I don't think we have ever addressed this in questin form.

Are you concerned with our perimater defense?

Bonus question for today.

Does it bother you that our back court will probably not be able to apply pressure defense?

Short & to the point today.

Hicks
09-19-2006, 06:41 AM
Obviously on the surface it will be the same as last year with Tinsley and Jackson still being here, but our bench has a lot more defensive options now with Daniels, White, Armstrong, and Greene sitting on it. We could use a pair of those players to play pressure D.

Unclebuck
09-19-2006, 07:51 AM
Yes it bothers me a great deal. But it isn't the "backcourt" that bothers me. The shooting guard position is fine. Jackson is an adequate defender, slightly better than average. Daniels is excellent especially against the smaller quicker shooting guards, and from everything I hear White is going to be a terror on the defensive end.

What concerns me is the point guard position, and I firmly believe the point guard is the most important defender on your team. If he can't apply pressure, that allows the opponents offense to set up quickly, easily and without any interference. If your point guard can't keep his man in front of him, then that breaks your defense down, gets your bigs in foul trouble, opens up your defensive boards, in other words it is a disaster.

Tinsley has improved overall, and I would say he is now decent, I still consider him below average. He cannot pressure the ball at all, but he's gotten better at keeping his man in front of him. Of course his strength is using his great hands to steal the ball.

Saras is just plain terrible at every aspect of defense. The only thing he sometimes is decent at is anticipating the pass and stealing the ball. But more times than not he goes for steals and gets way out of position.

So I'm really concerned about our top two point guards and for this reason as much as anything, I did not want either of them back this season.

Beyond those two guys we aren't too bad. Armstrong even at his age can still pressure the ball, and Greene from what I saw last season has the makings of being an excellent defender. But how much is either guy going to play. It does no good to have great defenders if they never leave the bench.

Bball
09-19-2006, 07:58 AM
What bothers me about the backcourt is we are way overloaded at PG (with question marks galore and no 'surefire' pecking order) yet we are trying to create a team without chemistry issues.

-Bball

thunderbird1245
09-19-2006, 10:27 AM
Yes it bothers me a great deal. But it isn't the "backcourt" that bothers me. The shooting guard position is fine. Jackson is an adequate defender, slightly better than average. Daniels is excellent especially against the smaller quicker shooting guards, and from everything I hear White is going to be a terror on the defensive end.

What concerns me is the point guard position, and I firmly believe the point guard is the most important defender on your team. If he can't apply pressure, that allows the opponents offense to set up quickly, easily and without any interference. If your point guard can't keep his man in front of him, then that breaks your defense down, gets your bigs in foul trouble, opens up your defensive boards, in other words it is a disaster.

Tinsley has improved overall, and I would say he is now decent, I still consider him below average. He cannot pressure the ball at all, but he's gotten better at keeping his man in front of him. Of course his strength is using his great hands to steal the ball.

Saras is just plain terrible at every aspect of defense. The only thing he sometimes is decent at is anticipating the pass and stealing the ball. But more times than not he goes for steals and gets way out of position.

So I'm really concerned about our top two point guards and for this reason as much as anything, I did not want either of them back this season.

Beyond those two guys we aren't too bad. Armstrong even at his age can still pressure the ball, and Greene from what I saw last season has the makings of being an excellent defender. But how much is either guy going to play. It does no good to have great defenders if they never leave the bench.


UB has pretty much nailed this question exactly right, in my opinion.

Point guard defense is in my opinion too the single biggest key to having a successful overall team defense. By picking up the opponents point guard further up on the floor, it runs the shot clock down, limits the amount of communication the point guard can recieve from his coach and give to his teammates, it limits some of the opponents slower developing plays from their playbook, it forces them to break off plays in order to make sure they get a shot off, it keeps them from making an extra pass and instaed take a contested one, and the cumulative effect of pressure defense at that spot can cause an opponent to wear down in the 4th quarter. Point guard defense helps set the tone for the rest of your defensive game plan and philosophy, and help develops a toughness and aggressive mentality in the rest of your team. I absolutely love a defensive ace on the opponents point guard, and its one of the reasons I loved Haywood Workman so much, and why I was hoping we'd get Marcus Banks this offseason.

The questions persist on that key part of our overall team defense. Defending wings, on the other hand as UB stated, will be great strength of our team. I view Granger as a potential Teyshaun Prince type defender, and he will be able to defend the opponents best perimeter scorer. Jackson should be able to defend the opponents second best perimeter guy pretty well, and we have a plethora of plus athletes and defenders on our bench in Armstrong and Greene (PG) and Daniels and White (wing defenders primarily). Now, the questions are, in my opinion, can Daniels guard another team's point guard? Will we choose to play the weaker defending Sarunas more minutes, or the better defending Greene and/or Armstrong? What would be our best 3 perimeter defending lineup, if thats what we need to win the game? Can these guys double the post and recover to their men well?

On a side note to some other discussions we've had to a starting lineup, would anybody have any problem with this scenario?.........

How about starting Armstrong/Greene at PG, just to play about 5-6 minutes and establish a defensive mentality and tone each night for how important we think defense is at that position, and maybe to soften up the opponents starter for Tinsley to come in? Would anybody have a major problem with that?

I can tell you that as a general rule, that I was taught and usually believe that you tell your players as coaches that the best 5 DEFENSIVE players will start.....and if that is true then our point guard position would have to be addressed outside the norm of what most people think on here. Now, I'm not saying you necessarily play your best 5 defenders the entire game or at the end of the game, Im just saying a good general rule of thumb to get max effort on that side of the ball is to START your best defenders.

JMO

Alpolloloco
09-19-2006, 11:31 AM
With the combo of Saras/Quiz (either starting or as primary backups) we'll have a great backcourt in which Daniels provides the ball pressure while Saras (and Granger at the SF) guards the passing lanes. This way you keep the pressure on the PG and hide Saras biggest weakness. Of course there will be a switch between Saras and Marquis the moment the opponent has crossed halfcourt and is setting up a play.

ABADays
09-19-2006, 12:17 PM
I am probably asking a dumb question so keep in mind the source :D , but what percentage of the point guards in the league would you actually consider "good defenders"?

rexnom
09-19-2006, 12:25 PM
I am probably asking a dumb question so keep in mind the source :D , but what percentage of the point guards in the league would you actually consider "good defenders"?
Fantastic question. I'm sure we'd all love a good, pass-first PG who can pass it into the post, on the break, or on the perimeter, defend, press, lead, and shoot as well as take over games in the fourth-quarter but unfortunately Jason Kidd circa 2003 just isn't widely available.

Unclebuck
09-19-2006, 12:34 PM
I am probably asking a dumb question so keep in mind the source :D , but what percentage of the point guards in the league would you actually consider "good defenders"?

Good question, seems to me that the number of good defenders at Pt guard is a lot less than it used to be.

Let me go down the list

Arenas - I have to admit I don't know
Nash - not good
Iverson - not good
Chris Paul - Good
Kidd - still good
Bibby - not good
Marbury - Not good
Billups - Good
B. Davis - Not good, (but he could be really good, if he wanted)
Hinrich - Good
Parker - This is a tough one, I have to say average
Cassell - Not good
Mike James - Good
Jason Terry - Good
Raymond Felton - I don't know
TJ Ford - Not good
Jameer Nelson - I don't know
Deron Williams - I could be wrong, but I think he's pretty good
Tinsley - Not good
Snow - Good
Delonte West - Good
Jayson williams - Not good.
Royal Ivy (yes he started 66 games) - Good
Andre Miller - Not good or maybe borderline average
Rafer Alson - Not good
Smush Parker - borderline good
Damon Stoudamire - this is a tough one, Fratello got him to play good defense, but overall I have to say average
Ridnour - not good
Telfair - not good


That is 8 goods, and one borderline. But really even most of the ones I consider "good" aren't that good. Compared to Kidd, Payton in their primes. So that is about 25% of the starters I would consider good defenders. The backups are in many cases better defenders.

Arcadian
09-19-2006, 01:07 PM
Well we certainly have brought in good defenders but I guess it depends on how much they play. Assuming Tins gets hurt any of our third string defenders would make us better. How much of a loss was Johnson defensively?

CableKC
09-19-2006, 02:13 PM
I have been concerned about our perimeter defense ever since Rip and Chauncey started killing us in the 2nd round of the playoffs in the previous 2 seasons. That's why I have been wanting to trade for a player like Trenton Hassell or hope to keep Oriene Greene...mainly as defensive minded roleplayers that can come in off the bench.

ChicagoJ
09-19-2006, 02:25 PM
But when you look at UB's list, there also aren't very many good offensive PGs, and even fewer good pass-first PGs.

We've already reached the point of an NBA point-guard crisis.

Same list, with offense added:

Arenas - I have to admit I don't know - shoot first/ scorer
Nash - not good - excellent offensive playmaking
Iverson - not good - offensive playmaking for self
Chris Paul - Good - Good
Kidd - still good - still excellent
Bibby - not good - Good
Marbury - Not good - ballhog
Billups - Good - not a great distributor but effective
B. Davis - Not good, (but he could be really good, if he wanted) - Good
Hinrich - Good - Average
Parker - This is a tough one, I have to say average - Good
Cassell - Not good - Good
Mike James - Good - Not good
Jason Terry - Good - Not a great distributor but usually effective
Raymond Felton - I don't know - Ditto
TJ Ford - Not good - Good with dribble penetration
Jameer Nelson - I don't know - Average
Deron Williams - I could be wrong, but I think he's pretty good - Good
Tinsley - Not good - Excellent
Snow - Good - Average
Delonte West - Good - Not good
Jayson williams - Not good - Average
Royal Ivy (yes he started 66 games) - Good - Yikes!!
Andre Miller - Not good or maybe borderline average - Good
Rafer Alson - Not good - Not good
Smush Parker - borderline good - Average
Damon Stoudamire - this is a tough one, Fratello got him to play good defense, but overall I have to say average - Average
Ridnour - not good - Average
Telfair - not good - I haven't paid enough attention to him.

When it comes to PG, I'd rather have an excellent offensive player that struggles defensivly than the other way around. If his defense struggles, you can design a team defense to compensate for that. If he can't run an offense, he needs to be soooo very good on defense that the other team can be held to sixty points or less, because you are going to struggle on offense.

IOW, I think the PG's individual influence on the team's offense is much, much greater than his individual influence on the team's defense.

Unclebuck
09-19-2006, 02:32 PM
Jay that is an excellent point, there aren't that many good point guards and that is why I broached the subject of possibly trading JO for one of the really good point guards. (I don't want to get into that right now) but the point I'm making right now is that in order to get one of the top points you need give up a lot.

We'll see if Marcus Williams turns out to be any good, if he does then it was a mistake to pass him up.

ChicagoJ
09-19-2006, 02:36 PM
That's exactly why I've been an advocate of hanging on to Tinsley.

We've got a better chance of him getting his act together than finding a suitable replacement without a team-crushing trade.

McClintic Sphere
09-19-2006, 02:39 PM
That is one area where I think we will improve with White and Daniels is being able to apply pressure defensively. I more worried about getting people in places where they can score and creating for them, as well as handling the other teams pressure. That was the biggest issue for AJ and Saras last year.

Bball
09-19-2006, 02:40 PM
We'll see if Marcus Williams turns out to be any good, if he does then it was a mistake to pass him up.


Going out on a limb there, huh? ;)

-Bball

FlavaDave
09-19-2006, 02:43 PM
My point was made for me. Point Guards suck at defense. Parker is actually terrible. You forget because the Spurs team is so good defensively. But Parker is in the lowest third of defenders.

Good news is this: most point guards can't shoot worth a damn, either.

Alpolloloco
09-19-2006, 02:55 PM
The backups are in many cases better defenders.

Another reason to start with a Saras/Quis backcourt, let Saras compete against the lesser defensive minded starting PG's. Tinsley/Jackson will give the 2nd unit ballhandling and scoring and whatever duo is more into the game will finish the 4th quarter.

ABADays
09-19-2006, 09:15 PM
The consensus then would be that we aren't any worse off than about 75% of the teams in the league and maybe even better off with some of our acquisitions.