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J_2_Da_IzzO
08-04-2006, 04:17 PM
I read on another forum that there was an article about JO and he was apparently in the best shape since joining the Pacers and the Eastern conference should watch out.

It also said something about Walsh stating there is no interest in Bonzi because he doesnt fit into what the Pacers are trying to become.

Sorry no link. Hopefully someone else has seen this article.

Im guessing JO will be the best forward next year and an MVP candidate if we dont get Al. If we do I dont know how he will cope playing centre.

Frank Slade
08-04-2006, 04:19 PM
I read on another forum that there was an article about JO and he was apparently in the best shape since joining the Pacers and the Eastern conference should watch out.

It also said something about Walsh stating there is no interest in Bonzi because he doesnt fit into what the Pacers are trying to become.

Sorry no link. Hopefully someone else has seen this article.

Im guessing JO will be the best forward next year and an MVP candidate if we dont get Al. If we do I dont know how he will cope playing centre.



. Iíve (Mike Wells) seen Jermaine a couple of times this summer and this is the best shape Iíve seen him since Iíve been in Indianapolis. Pacer fans have to hope he looks like the player that finished third in the MVP voting several seasons ago and puts the injuries of the past two seasons behind him.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

Frank Slade
08-04-2006, 04:19 PM
I read on another forum that there was an article about JO and he was apparently in the best shape since joining the Pacers and the Eastern conference should watch out.

It also said something about Walsh stating there is no interest in Bonzi because he doesnt fit into what the Pacers are trying to become.

Sorry no link. Hopefully someone else has seen this article.

Im guessing JO will be the best forward next year and an MVP candidate if we dont get Al. If we do I dont know how he will cope playing centre.



. I’ve (Mike Wells) seen Jermaine a couple of times this summer and this is the best shape I’ve seen him since I’ve been in Indianapolis. Pacer fans have to hope he looks like the player that finished third in the MVP voting several seasons ago and puts the injuries of the past two seasons behind him.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

aero
08-04-2006, 04:30 PM
Iíve (Mike Wells) seen Jermaine a couple of times this summer and this is the best shape Iíve seen him since Iíve been in Indianapolis. Pacer fans have to hope he looks like the player that finished third in the MVP voting several seasons ago and puts the injuries of the past two seasons behind him.

Mike has only been here two seasons so thats not saying much, maybe JO is indeed in great shape and all but to truly see what he's like we will have to wait until the NBA season starts.

bulldog
08-04-2006, 04:36 PM
JO's always been in great shape. It's tough to tell, though, because pin-striped suites and silk ties don't accentuate the biceps like, say, a basketball jersey, which he doesn't get a chance to wear very often.

We can't trade him cause we wouldn't get equal value, but our hopes rest on the shoulders of a brittle, brittle man, no matter how many pounds he's lost or how much lean muscle he has.

Destined4Greatness
08-04-2006, 04:38 PM
Wasn't this same article written last year, and the year before last.

Steve McQueen
08-04-2006, 04:43 PM
JO's always been in great shape. It's tough to tell, though, because pin-striped suites and silk ties don't accentuate the biceps like, say, a basketball jersey, which he doesn't get a chance to wear very often.

We can't trade him cause we wouldn't get equal value, but our hopes rest on the shoulders of a brittle, brittle man, no matter how many pounds he's lost or how much lean muscle he has.
6'11" 260

Hes had a few tough injuries, whoopdy doo. Getting your arm extended backwards by another 6'11" 250~ man will do that to you.

Destined4Greatness
08-04-2006, 04:53 PM
6'11" 260

Hes had a few tough injuries, whoopdy doo. Getting your arm extended backwards by another 6'11" 250~ man will do that to you.

Hes had more than a few.

Ankle, Foot, Knee, Shoulder, Wrist, Groin. And thats all just since the 2004 Conference Finals. Plus we always get on Tinsley's case for missing games from Flu like symptoms so its only fair to mention that JO has missed games from the flu.

Anthem
08-04-2006, 05:17 PM
It's the offseason. Everybody's in the best shape ever.

Plus, Jon's knees are feeling great.

Unclebuck
08-04-2006, 05:18 PM
MM said the same thing about JO Montieth has been here longer than JO

Sollozzo
08-04-2006, 05:21 PM
I swear I hear stuff like this every year regarding JO and other players.

Anyone can be in the best shape of their life in August. Get back to me when it's April and JO has played the whole season without a big string of injuries.

Destined4Greatness
08-04-2006, 05:26 PM
It's the offseason. Everybody's in the best shape ever.

<b>Plus, Jon's knees are feeling great.</b>


LOL

Gamble
08-04-2006, 05:38 PM
If anything dropping weight and staying in town are the right PR
moves we need from him. I am sure everyone is happy that he's
not in some other city working out with his own training staff.

I am curious to see how he's going to play without those 15lb's of weight
and hopefully he'll have more stamina down the stretch.

I have to address something here. Injuries happen so why are we getting hot and
heavy over the fact that JO has been down 'n out in a contact sport playing a
postion that is harder on the body than other postions?

Destined4Greatness
08-04-2006, 05:49 PM
If anything dropping weight and staying in town are the right PR
moves we need from him. I am sure everyone is happy that he's
not in some other city working out with his own training staff.

I am curious to see how he's going to play without those 15lb's of weight
and hopefully he'll have more stamina down the stretch.

<b>I have to address something here. Injuries happen so why are we getting hot and
heavy over the fact that JO has been down 'n out in a contact sport playing a
postion that is harder on the body than other postions?</b>

Because hes paid 80 million over the next 4 years, and ever since he got that contract his performance has declined.

The Franchise is crippled with his contract and of course we are going to be mad when hes spending the money on suits to wear to the games hes sitting out with the flu.

Eindar
08-04-2006, 07:12 PM
Nah, they don't say stuff like this about JO. Last year they were talking about how he'd bulked up, and he did. The year before that, I believe, was the year he hired the dietician. That's all they've said about his weight/health. Mostly, prior to the dietician, they talked about him adding stuff to his game, learning to use his left hand, etc.

You're confusing him with Bender, who puts on 40 lbs of muscle every year, dunks on a 12 foot rim, and terrorizes small children with feats of unrecorded athleticism.

Unclebuck
08-04-2006, 07:55 PM
I swear I hear stuff like this every year regarding JO and other players.

Anyone can be in the best shape of their life in August. Get back to me when it's April and JO has played the whole season without a big string of injuries.



So it wouldn't matter if he weighed 300 lbs and looked like Uncle Buck

Robertmto
08-04-2006, 08:02 PM
The moods a little :bleh: in here

EDIT: we need a :bleh: smilie

PacerMan
08-04-2006, 08:22 PM
Hes had more than a few.

Ankle, Foot, Knee, Shoulder, Wrist, Groin. And thats all just since the 2004 Conference Finals. Plus we always get on Tinsley's case for missing games from Flu like symptoms so its only fair to mention that JO has missed games from the flu.


He's been our main and sometimes ONLY offensive threat. He plays in the paint where the big guys roam, and they have every reason to hack the heck out of him. And they do.

Big surprise.

Destined4Greatness
08-04-2006, 08:28 PM
He's been our main and sometimes ONLY offensive threat. He plays in the paint where the big guys roam, and they have every reason to hack the heck out of him. And they do.

Big surprise.

Obviously he hasn't been our only offensive threat or else our record would not be better without him than with him. The reason he appears to be our only offensive threat is because he hogs the ball and plays JOball. And thus in games he led the team in scoring we were 10-16.

And no he does not play in the paint anymore. He played in the Paint the 2 years he averaged 20/10 the last two years he has wussed out and spent his time shooting jumpshots. Surprisingly he was less injury prone when playing in the paint.

And even if he did play in the post that doesn't excuse having almost as many injuries as Jamaal Tinsley. Hell there are big men that go their entire career without accumulating that many injuries.

Kegboy
08-04-2006, 08:34 PM
It's the offseason. Everybody's in the best shape ever.

Not true. I'm not losing weight, and my knees feel like ****.

Tom White
08-04-2006, 08:43 PM
It's the offseason. Everybody's in the best shape ever.

Plus, Jon's knees are feeling great.

And so are Rik's feet.

JayRedd
08-04-2006, 08:51 PM
And so are Rik's feet.

And the voices in Ron's head are telling him to focus on basketball.

Seriously though, I think this will be Bender's break-out year. Tremendous UPside Potential.

avoidingtheclowns
08-04-2006, 09:38 PM
Seriously though, I think this will be Bender's break-out year. Tremendous UPside Potential.

well he certainly broke out of the league.

JO is in the best shape... he's stronger... he's taller... he eats his vegitables... he watched JUST MY LUCK and is hoping to rub shoulders with Dirk Nowitzki and trade his injury-filled bad luck seasons with Dirk's high shooting percentage and injury-free-ness along with another 38 year old point guard.

this is the same PR work all teams do during the offseason. lets just hope it works out this time. he's played in only about 56% (92/164) of the games the last two seasons, we need better for the investment.

AnotherBirdCreation
08-04-2006, 10:07 PM
Obviously he hasn't been our only offensive threat or else our record would not be better without him than with him. The reason he appears to be our only offensive threat is because he hogs the ball and plays JOball. And thus in games he led the team in scoring we were 10-16.

And no he does not play in the paint anymore. He played in the Paint the 2 years he averaged 20/10 the last two years he has wussed out and spent his time shooting jumpshots. Surprisingly he was less injury prone when playing in the paint.

And even if he did play in the post that doesn't excuse having almost as many injuries as Jamaal Tinsley. Hell there are big men that go their entire career without accumulating that many injuries.

That happens because of our offense. J.O. gets the ball and gets triple-teamed because everyone else stands around and can't hit shots when they actually do get the ball. We really didn't have any creators after Ronnie left and Fred went down. That's why I feel Marquis is a huge addition. That guy can make things happen.

Bball
08-05-2006, 12:21 AM
That's why I feel Marquis is a huge addition. That guy can make things happen.

Marquis can't make anything happen if the ball is in JO's hands. That's not to say that the ball shouldn't ever be in JO's hands but the offense cannot bog down doing it either.

-Bball

Hicks
08-05-2006, 12:28 AM
My hope is that JO is quicker this year (remember him in 2001? He was FAST back then), and that the lack of weight keeps him from wearing down and developing so many nagging injuries. The big ones were freak accidents, but he still got minor ones that limited him.

Still, I think some forget how much of a monster he can be offensively (remember the stretch he had in '05 I think it was where he averaged 30ppg for a stretch?).

I had the pleasure of talking with Arnie Kander last month, and he commented how JO always looked to him like he had "baby fat". I may try to ask him what he thinks of JO when he gets a good look at him this winter. See if he notices a difference.

Eindar
08-05-2006, 05:51 AM
My hope is that JO is quicker this year (remember him in 2001? He was FAST back then), and that the lack of weight keeps him from wearing down and developing so many nagging injuries. The big ones were freak accidents, but he still got minor ones that limited him.

Still, I think some forget how much of a monster he can be offensively (remember the stretch he had in '05 I think it was where he averaged 30ppg for a stretch?).

I had the pleasure of talking with Arnie Kander last month, and he commented how JO always looked to him like he had "baby fat". I may try to ask him what he thinks of JO when he gets a good look at him this winter. See if he notices a difference.

I always thought I saw a bit of a gobbler/double chin on JO, but I always dismissed it, considering that his arms are way too cut for him to be that fat, but maybe I was right :)

rexnom
08-05-2006, 06:02 AM
My hope is that JO is quicker this year (remember him in 2001? He was FAST back then), and that the lack of weight keeps him from wearing down and developing so many nagging injuries. The big ones were freak accidents, but he still got minor ones that limited him.

Still, I think some forget how much of a monster he can be offensively (remember the stretch he had in '05 I think it was where he averaged 30ppg for a stretch?).

I had the pleasure of talking with Arnie Kander last month, and he commented how JO always looked to him like he had "baby fat". I may try to ask him what he thinks of JO when he gets a good look at him this winter. See if he notices a difference.
JO can be a monster. Like ridiculous. That Milwaukee game he could have gotten 70 easily. He just isn't that selfish. He really carried us offensively for a stretch there. I think he'll prove everyone wrong this year. I'm real excited to see him play. I just want to put this out there. He is the number one player I'm excited to see next year. Before Danny. Before Marquis. Before Flight. Oh yeah.

3ballinhoop
08-05-2006, 06:11 AM
I think that it is pretty obvious that the starplayer is the one you are most anxious to see, especially when he has not been able to really perform the last season. Personally, I am looking forward to seeing Tinsley, Jasikevicius and Marquis Daniels play for the Pacers next season.

In the eastern conference, Toronto has caught my interest with lots of changes that could turn out to be quite interesting.

Jay Ohh
08-05-2006, 09:10 PM
Always with the *****ing. Jermaine has had two serious injuries that have forced him to miss time. One was Elson nearly ripping his arm off which could have happened to any player, I'm pretty sure it's called... oh yeah, a freak accident. The other was the torn groin he got from bulking up too much. If he has another actual SERIOUS injury, then you can label him injury prone. Not just because he misses a game here and there with a wrist or ankle injury. That happens with just about everyone in the NBA.

Jon Theodore
08-05-2006, 09:52 PM
Yeah it's really time for Jermaine to step up, if he doesn't this year his time (as a "star") is up if you ask me. I am reallly intrerested in seeing Quis play, he's obviously gonna be getting close to starter minutes so we should expect lots from him.

As someone mentioned, Toronto could be decent this year, but I still don't think they have a chance at the playoffs really. Who knows though, if the uptempo thing really benefits Bosh and if TJ Ford can run that offense well then it might work out.

JayRedd
08-06-2006, 12:22 AM
Personally, I am looking forward to seeing Tinsley......play for the Pacers next season.

Personally, I would like to see Salma Hayek topless in my room right now. But you know....Life isn't fair. Get a helmet.

vapacersfan
08-06-2006, 12:27 AM
I think that it is pretty obvious that the starplayer is the one you are most anxious to see, especially when he has not been able to really perform the last season. Personally, I am looking forward to seeing Tinsley, Jasikevicius and Marquis Daniels play for the Pacers next season.

In the eastern conference, Toronto has caught my interest with lots of changes that could turn out to be quite interesting.


Yeah, it will be great to see that lineup work, untill Tinsley gets hurt 10 games into the season.

Since86
08-07-2006, 01:42 PM
My hope is that JO is quicker this year (remember him in 2001? He was FAST back then), and that the lack of weight keeps him from wearing down and developing so many nagging injuries. The big ones were freak accidents, but he still got minor ones that limited him.

Two really quick points.

1.) Adding muscle doesn't slow you down any. In fact, weight training makes you faster for a number of physiological reasons.

2.) Weight training, when done correctly, limits/prevents injuries.

There are other reasons why he's been in the situation he's been in, other than he added muscle. He could have done it improperly, which I highly doubt.

Overtraining should be the first factor you look for, in a highly trained athlete who is constantly being injured. I would bet my yearly salary, which isn't much btw but it's all I have, that JO's problems are from a lack of rest than anything else.

Trainers, which are big time scapegoats around here, can't force a player to rest. They can't make a coach give days off. They can't work magic and tighten up body tissue, when they've become stretched/tired. The amount of money these guys make, and are responsible for, would put them in the top of their field. You don't just let any orthopediac surgeon cut on multimillion dollar investments, and you don't just let any AT look over your entire basketball squad.

It just irks me, that the training/trainers get the bad wrap around here. Getting another trainer/staff isn't going to magically make injuries disappear. JO losing weight, isn't going to magically make him more durable. Those are minor details in the spectrum. They aren't going to work miracles.

Hicks
08-07-2006, 02:01 PM
You're telling me if a player added 30 pounds of muscle, he's going to be faster? 40lbs? 50lbs?

Hicks
08-07-2006, 02:08 PM
Also, in JO's case I don't think that 260lbs was all muscle; he had some fat on him.

Since86
08-07-2006, 02:17 PM
You're telling me if a player added 30 pounds of muscle, he's going to be faster? 40lbs? 50lbs?

If a player added 30lbs of muscle, speed isn't on his goal list.

If someone was 6'0 120lbs, and added 40lbs of weight correctly, he could definately add speed.

Outside of professional bodybuilding/power lifters, there is absolutely no reason to add that much muscle, so you're question is really out there.

If my goal was to maximize speed, I could gain 20lbs of muscle, and improve in that area. Maybe his goal wasn't to maintain or add his speed, which is why he's slower. Maybe he wanted more upperbody strength. There's a lot of different factors.

Honestly, I don't know why you would want him to have maintained that speed through the 03-05 seasons. There would be absolutely no reason for it, when the team didn't run. The style they played made since for him to add bulk, because he was going to bang people, not out run them.

ChicagoJ
08-07-2006, 06:52 PM
Honestly, I don't know why you would want him to have maintained that speed through the 03-05 seasons. There would be absolutely no reason for it, when the team didn't run. The style they played made since for him to add bulk, because he was going to bang people, not out run them.

Bingo.

I'm not worried about JO's conditioning. He's been in great shape since he arrived.

Hopefully he can avoid the freakish injuries that would've left anyone on the IR for a multiple weeks each time.

How many players actually play in all 82 games each season? Some of you seem to have unreasonable expectations.

Anthem
08-07-2006, 10:05 PM
How many players actually play in all 82 games each season? Some of you seem to have unreasonable expectations.
:reggie:

Hicks
08-07-2006, 10:39 PM
5/17 years he played in 82 regular season games, and he's a legend for keeping himself in great health and shape.

IMO if you play 70 or more games a season you're doing good.

SoupIsGood
08-07-2006, 10:45 PM
My hope is that JO is quicker this year (remember him in 2001? He was FAST back then), and that the lack of weight keeps him from wearing down and developing so many nagging injuries. The big ones were freak accidents, but he still got minor ones that limited him.

Still, I think some forget how much of a monster he can be offensively (remember the stretch he had in '05 I think it was where he averaged 30ppg for a stretch?).

I had the pleasure of talking with Arnie Kander last month, and he commented how JO always looked to him like he had "baby fat". I may try to ask him what he thinks of JO when he gets a good look at him this winter. See if he notices a difference.


Yes, I do. That was JO playing at the highest level of his career. His was without-a-doubt a true dominant force for IMO the first time. He used all of the post moves available to him and was nearly unstopable in the post.

It's when JO gets away from his vast array of moves and starts relying on the 13-15 foot fadeaway that things bog down.

But, if you surround JO with offensively capable teamates who play well with him, I think we might see this deadly, more potent version of JO more often.

Here are his numbers from that stretch....


28 PPG
46.6 FG%
9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end)
2.75 BPG
.67 SPG
2 APG
3.16 TOPG
7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.


(That was written during that season, in case its confusing)

avoidingtheclowns
08-07-2006, 10:58 PM
Bingo.

I'm not worried about JO's conditioning. He's been in great shape since he arrived.

Hopefully he can avoid the freakish injuries that would've left anyone on the IR for a multiple weeks each time.

How many players actually play in all 82 games each season? Some of you seem to have unreasonable expectations.

is it really unreasonable to think someone should be able to play more than 58% of the time? he has played 44 and 51 games the last two seasons so 95 games out of 164 regular season games... meanwhile tinsley in the last three seasons has played 132 games out of 246 for 52%.

i really don't think anyone expects 82 games a year out of these guys but in JO's first four seasons with indiana he only missed 20 games (6%) and JT missed 11 games his first two seasons (7%)... numbers closer to those would be prefered - not unreasonable.

able
08-08-2006, 04:39 AM
is it really unreasonable to think someone should be able to play more than 58% of the time? he has played 44 and 51 games the last two seasons so 95 games out of 164 regular season games... meanwhile tinsley in the last three seasons has played 132 games out of 246 for 52%.

i really don't think anyone expects 82 games a year out of these guys but in JO's first four seasons with indiana he only missed 20 games (6%) and JT missed 11 games his first two seasons (7%)... numbers closer to those would be prefered - not unreasonable.

If you start throwing stats around, make sure your premise is correct, otherwise it is just number abuse.

You forgot that JO was suspended, which changes the number (10/82 is quite a bit (12.19%) and the (alas common) error on Tins part is people keep adding the DNP-CD in favor of the elsewhere mentioned Kenny Anderson, about 30 games, which is an even more dramatic change in pecentage.

Then add to the fact that JO's arm was pullled which hindered his off-season work-out (he had to do pilate to "get in shape") and last year he forced a simple ankle injury upon request from the coach and that ended up in a groin-injury, Tinsley mis-diagnosed foot is well documented and the same goes for the arm and you have a lot less "percentage points" to count.

Did they miss those games, yes, can you hold that against them? I don'tthink so, as slowly has leaked Tins has been in the best of shape coming in the last 2 years, but rehab is something that went wrong, for reasons unbeknown yet.

For both goes that the injury riddled seasons were the seasons (last two) that nothing was normal and they were asked to do more then a "fair share" of work, how easy everybody forgets how Tins did his job while Ron/Jax/JO had a holiday on Stern's orders.


Strangely JO is all of a sudden an injury prone :fillintheblank: whlie Duncan had a very sub-par year because of lingering injuries and he is still "the best".

Grass on the other side of the street right ?

avoidingtheclowns
08-08-2006, 07:51 AM
If you start throwing stats around, make sure your premise is correct, otherwise it is just number abuse.

how exactly is it number abuse? all i said was that those players missed those games... i never said they were all for injury. i don't think its misleading to say they only appeared in the games i pointed out, as the league would confirm. so to clarify my premise is this: JO and JT have not played in a significant amount of games regardless of the reason/excuse/circumstances.


You forgot that JO was suspended, which changes the number (10/82 is quite a bit (12.19%) and the (alas common) error on Tins part is people keep adding the DNP-CD in favor of the elsewhere mentioned Kenny Anderson, about 30 games, which is an even more dramatic change in pecentage.

Then add to the fact that JO's arm was pullled which hindered his off-season work-out (he had to do pilate to "get in shape") and last year he forced a simple ankle injury upon request from the coach and that ended up in a groin-injury, Tinsley mis-diagnosed foot is well documented and the same goes for the arm and you have a lot less "percentage points" to count.

does any of that really change the fact that they weren't available to help the pacers on the court? oh, and i'm not completely convinced that any pacer fan could forget that players were suspended.


For both goes that the injury riddled seasons were the seasons (last two) that nothing was normal and they were asked to do more then a "fair share" of work, how easy everybody forgets how Tins did his job while Ron/Jax/JO had a holiday on Stern's orders.
i haven't forgotten his post-brawl performance or the way that he plays when he isn't injured or has the flu or whatever the case may be. i actually like tinsley when he plays. the problem is that the last three years, he hasn't really been available to help us. he had two great seasons and JO had four really great seasons but because of injury and suspension they have only played around half of the games in the last 2-3 seasons. thats all i was pointing out.


Strangely JO is all of a sudden an injury prone :fillintheblank: whlie Duncan had a very sub-par year because of lingering injuries and he is still "the best". Grass on the other side of the street right ?
well championships and team leadership help that reputation (not to forget, because i'll get an angry response if i don't specifically account for this, he has much better players around him). JO was supposed to have the breakout season and career year following reggie's retirement but it didn't happen. a lot of things went wrong and contributed to last year so i don't solely blame him. it was, however, the second year in a row that someone taking up $18+ million missed more than a handful of games (for whatever reason).

have i said that its all his or tinsley's fault? of course not but i think it would significantly help the team if they were able to play in the percentage of games they did to start their pacer careers (another premise my numbers were supposed to help support).

my new premise is: it is a straw-man/joe-morgan argument to say my numbers are misleading because regardless of your breakdown, my point was that they didn't play in those games. no matter how you divide it, they played more games in those first few years than they have the most recent, and i would be willing to bet that if they played the percentage of games they did in the first few years that it may, just maybe, help the team. call me crazy, but a strategy like that just could work.

Destined4Greatness
08-08-2006, 08:05 AM
If a Player is stupid enough to get suspended it should be looked at as worse than an Injury. Able I think his point is valid. These guys need to start ensuring there ability to play for us.

able
08-08-2006, 08:17 AM
for your added information : DNP-CD means Did Not Play, Coaches Decision, it is safe to assume that the player is available.

30 games on 80 is close to 40% changing your premise and that of many from 3 to 2 years, the years including the brawl and Ron's trade "request".

Everybody knows they were injured but forgotten is easily that they were asked to play while injured, thus most likely aggrevating injuries instead of healing, creating worse injuries, mis-diagnosed injuries resulting in wrong treatment etc. I fail to see how you can hold that against a player.

Finally JO makes 18 mio this coming year, meaning last year he made 16.3 and the year before that 14.6 so the cost were considerably lower.
Last year was Tins'' first year of the extension, the year before that (brawl) he was on a rookie scale salary.

If you are using incorrect numbers and thus embellish your point based upon incorrect data then you are abusing numbers to make a point that is weaker if not done so, henceforth my "abuse" statement.

Every result has a cause, which influences the results, if they were a result of something you can blame the player in a "large" way then you have all the rights in the world to be critical, if however your premise is based upon ignoring cause and responsibility then not only do you weaken your case but also invite others to seek other reasons behind your arguments.

Your own observations and deductions from correct data leads to conclusions that might differ from the "cattle" attitude (one says it is so, the rest follows along and assumes it's truth) that seems to be prevalent here at times.

Destined4Greatness
08-08-2006, 08:19 AM
Basically right now, Able is using Big words, and many Paragraphs to attempt to hide the fact that he can't defend JO logically.

able
08-08-2006, 08:23 AM
Basically right now, Able is using Big words, and many Paragraphs to attempt to hide the fact that he can't defend JO logically.

Ignorance is Bliss

3ballinhoop
08-08-2006, 08:34 AM
It is obvious fans can't be satisfied with a player that earns considerably more than a D. Nowitzki but isn't close to the same performance during the NBA season. If O'Neal was an all NBA-1st teamer his salary would make sense, but it turns out he hasn't produced for two years. Pacers fans have to hope for him to return to the form he had during the 60 win season; his contract would still be (too) high, but not the catastrophy it was the last seasons.

able
08-08-2006, 08:43 AM
Yeah because Dirk makes NBA 1st team every year..... and oh yeah "every" player that makes that much (Dirk) or more performs MUCH better then JO as in:
Kevin Garnett; Chris Webber; Allan Houston; Michael Finley; Shaquille O'Neal; Allen Iverson; Jason Kidd;Kobe Bryant; Tim Duncan; Brian Grant; Stephon Marbury; Grant Hill; Jalen Rose; Tracy McGrady; Eddie Jones; Antawn Jamison

avoidingtheclowns
08-08-2006, 08:53 AM
i've found bliss in several other places too.

since the pacers are putting all of their proverbial chips on JT, lets assume that the DNP-CD (thank you ever so kindly for enlightening me on this 'foreign' code, for you see my lack of knowledge about the game of basketball always gets me in severe trouble when discussing such issues.... now if you'll indulge me, could you explain what an 'assist' is, because it seems fairly obvious to me that it accounts for the number of times you help an opponent on the ground stand up) was because he was on the avail. roster but still couldn't play. because i don't think there would be any other reason for him to bench a player like JT if he's the Pacer's future. i think if he was truly capable of playing he would have played more than one game and 7 minutes in the playoffs.

i believe this comes down to our worldviews on the subject not overlapping... you hold the fact that the players injuries and such are not a result of their own doing (or at least not in a "large" way). i think there are many factors that contribute but i think that if they spent more of the time on the floor the pacers would be better. you think i should account for the fact that they weren't able to properly heal and other lurking variables (which from what i can infer, given your discussion of players not being largely involved would be the coach?), i say that it doesn't need to be individually accounted for because it all leads to the same end result (missed games).

avoidingtheclowns
08-08-2006, 08:57 AM
Yeah because Dirk makes NBA 1st team every year..... and oh yeah "every" player that makes that much (Dirk) or more performs MUCH better then JO as in:
Kevin Garnett; Chris Webber; Allan Houston; Michael Finley; Shaquille O'Neal; Allen Iverson; Jason Kidd;Kobe Bryant; Tim Duncan; Brian Grant; Stephon Marbury; Grant Hill; Jalen Rose; Tracy McGrady; Eddie Jones; Antawn Jamison

i think its appropriate to point out that your data is misleading in representing your point because jalen rose and "STAR"bury play for the knicks who overpay everyone, regardless of talent... sources say the drifters living outside MSG were signed for $10,500,000 a year with a trade kicker.

able
08-08-2006, 09:00 AM
i think its appropriate to point out that your data is misleading in representing your point because jalen rose and "STAR"bury play for the knicks who overpay everyone, regardless of talent... sources say the drifters living outside MSG were signed for $10,500,000 a year with a trade kicker.

Yes I think you are right there, I heard something like that to, but it still makes a point that "overpaid" is not something one should use to "lightly" :D

Back on track: It is well documented that Tins was "benched" in favour of Kenny Anderson, the ultimate RC "senior" player, it took a sending off from RC and "bold" move from Mike Brown to get Tins back in the line-up.

3ballinhoop
08-08-2006, 09:06 AM
Nowitzki has been all NBA-1st team two seasons in a row, and it is a good probability that he will be there the coming seasons as well. Also, as a german player, he has had to perform that little bit better to get there.
I agree that Nowitzki is underpaid compared to other superstars, but what point do you want to make with your list of NBA stars? Of course Jermaine is not the only athlete in the NBA with a contract of a magnitude that is hard to live up to, but players like Duncan or Kobe are, rightly, top performers in the eyes of the objective NBA fan, while Jermaine is not or no longer. His deal gets halfway reasonable the day he plays so good that a general manager considers trading a superstar for him. Maybe he can raise his game, but it is understandable that fans have doubts, whatever reasons you might be able to find or create.

ChicagoJ
08-08-2006, 10:47 AM
If a Player is stupid enough to get suspended it should be looked at as worse than an Injury. Able I think his point is valid. These guys need to start ensuring there ability to play for us.

Yet you're supportive of SJax, who was suspended twice as long as JO, and frankly should've been suspended at least as long (if not twice as long) as Artest for his antics that night. (And don't forget, I thought the season-long suspension for Artest was warranted but at least Artest was directly provoked. SJax was just looking to make the situation worse - both on the court and in the stands, and it didn't directly involved him in the first place.)

You should just stick with posting,

"I hate JO".

We can live with that. But quit trying to use bizarre, twisted reasons for it. Just say, "I hate JO" and be done with it. Then you won't be called out anywhere near as much or have your arguments consistently debunked.

Destined4Greatness
08-08-2006, 12:32 PM
Knocking one player doesn't defend another, Although I do support Jax, he is alot different. Jack has missed 32 games the last 2 years for us, one was for a bad bad call that deserved to be argued, that a ref overreacted on and gave him a suspension. Where as just last year JO missed 31 games, from Injury. The year before he missed 23, along with his 15 game suspension for the Brawl.

And for the Most part Jack missed his all at once, He came back after a long stint only once, causing less of a strain on the chemistry developed by the players. JO has come back from missing 5+ games at least 5 times the last 2 years, helping to kill much needed chemistry when he goes down and comes back.

Fool
08-08-2006, 12:47 PM
Hicks, where and why did you meet Arnie Kander?

vapacersfan
08-08-2006, 01:07 PM
Jay and I have not agreed on much of anything since Artest left, but to defend S-Jax and then to bash JO is purly comical.

Unlike Jay I thought the suspension of Artest was way excessive, but it has grown on me over the years. With that said, I even said back then that if Artest got a full season Jackson should have gotten 2, if not more.

Destined4Greatness
08-08-2006, 09:36 PM
How pathetic is it, that to defend JO people have to bash Jax. Is it that obvious that he has been a let down since he signed his contract. Its not like he has been getting progressively worse since he signed his huge deal.

ChicagoJ
08-08-2006, 11:52 PM
How pathetic is it, that to defend JO people have to bash Jax. Is it that obvious that he has been a let down since he signed his contract. Its not like he has been getting progressively worse since he signed his huge deal.

How pathetic is that, to accuse people of bashing Jax to defend JO. It is that obvious that he has caused more harm than good since we S&T'ed for him. Its not like his game has actually improved since his NJ days, when they couldn't stand his turnovers and shot selection, and Popovich would bench him more often than not but had the luxury of Ginobolli to replace him, or even in Altanta where he also ballhogged his way to one of the worst second-half team performances in league history.

But really, who was bashing Jax to defend JO? Because there is enough to bash Jax on without ever bringing JO into the discussion.

Jay Ohh
08-08-2006, 11:57 PM
(removed inappropraite part)

Anthem
08-09-2006, 12:06 AM
There are no posts on page three.

Software upgrades cause weird crap.

SoupIsGood
08-09-2006, 12:08 AM
There are no posts on page three.

Software upgrades cause weird crap.


Ummm, you sure you just haven't ignored someone...? Oopsss! :-p

That would set you back a post

Destined4Greatness
08-09-2006, 03:21 PM
Jay are you just trying to be ignorant.

Destined4Greatness
08-09-2006, 03:23 PM
(removed inappropraite part).

The topic is about JO, (removed inappropraite part).

JayRedd
08-09-2006, 03:24 PM
Jay are you just trying to be ignorant.

off-topic....But just wanted to apologize now for bringing another Jay to this forum.

This is starting to get confusing.