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Peck
08-03-2006, 02:15 AM
Reading the sportingnews.com article on how he feels the Pacers will basically fall down this season it made me wonder about how I honestly thought the team would do.

I know we've already done this once or twice this summer but I want to do it again.

As of right now, and that means no Al Harrington, what are your honest expectations for this team this up coming season?

I'll go ahead & list mine up front.

Again, this is without Al.

I'm going to go with 40 wins 42 losses and a first round exit as the 8th seed.

Now what I have to ask myself is "Would I be dissapointed with that"?

I don't think I can answer that till I see how they play. Win/loss record is what it is, however the style of play and the way you win or lose games means something to me as well.

I think this year will be hard on people like Uncle Buck & myself because I don't think we will see the defense that we have grown used to over the years here.

Again, this is without Al or any other major moves. This is all off if that happens & I will rethink my whole totalls then.

What do you guys think?

Hicks
08-03-2006, 02:24 AM
Try as I sometimes might, I can't bring myself to assume and expect all of the injuries and other crap of the last two years to come back in full force again this year. I just can't. So with that in mind, I honestly could see us winning 50+ games.

Don't get me wrong, I'm expect injuries and other crap, but closer to the amounts we saw in 2004, not the past two seasons. I would not be surprised at all to be 100% wrong on this, but I can't bring myself to dive into such depths of pessimism. I refuse. And if that changes, I don't think I'd even consider myself interested in, let alone a fan of, the Indiana Pacers. If I have nothing to do but sit around and *****, moan, and predict disaster and despair, I am wasting my life on this, and I refuse to do so.

It all comes down to consistency. What I am expecting to happen still falls reasonably in line with the word, ESPECIALLY from the POV of our returning people. I think in the long term that would-- that WILL do wonders for this team, side-show crap be damned.

Anthem
08-03-2006, 02:30 AM
Hulk / Foster
Jermaine / Powell
Granger / White
Jack / Williams
Tinsley / Saras

That's no championship squad, but if they get a chance to play together develop some chemistry without getting bit by the injury bug again, I could see them winning 50 games.

Naptown_Seth
08-03-2006, 02:40 AM
Foster/ Hulk
Jermaine / Powell/ Baston
Granger / Williams
Jack / Daniels/ White
Tinsley / Saras/ Armstong/ Green

I'll guess JO goes 65+, Tins goes 60+, Granger takes the same progress that Pippen did into year 2 (good, but not star), Foster is good for 55+

Lots of good perimeter defense to bring in when needed, decent scoring inside the arc with Tinsley running the offense. SarJas a little better for the long haul works great with Harrison, perhaps White or Williams impacts the season in year 1. Armstrong leadership.

Maybe 45 wins is reasonable.

Will Galen
08-03-2006, 04:44 AM
Reading the sportingnews.com article on how he feels the Pacers will basically fall down this season it made me wonder about how I honestly thought the team would do.

I know we've already done this once or twice this summer but I want to do it again.

As of right now, and that means no Al Harrington, what are your honest expectations for this team this up coming season?

I'll go ahead & list mine up front.

Again, this is without Al.

I'm going to go with 40 wins 42 losses and a first round exit as the 8th seed.

Now what I have to ask myself is "Would I be dissapointed with that"?

I don't think I can answer that till I see how they play. Win/loss record is what it is, however the style of play and the way you win or lose games means something to me as well.

I think this year will be hard on people like Uncle Buck & myself because I don't think we will see the defense that we have grown used to over the years here.

Again, this is without Al or any other major moves. This is all off if that happens & I will rethink my whole totalls then.

What do you guys think?

This has always been a good team with a good coach. Barring major injuries, I look for 50 plus wins. That means no rotation player missing more than ten games.

Suspensions got them on the wrong track and injuries did the rest. A healthy Pacer team will be a good team!

As far as what I bolded above, I agree, the defense is going to be better because the Pacers are picking up players that can really get after it. (grin)

redwillow
08-03-2006, 05:05 AM
Win/loss record is what it is, however the style of play and the way you win or lose games means something to me as well.
I agree. If they are competiyive and hungry I will watch every game if they win 32 or 64. W/o Harrinton I'd say they could win 47. But we know they will make moves w or w/o Harrington on the roster. The Pacer players are going like hot cakes in places like Dallas and Toronto these days. The main reason I have Larry and Donnie place-mats in my dining room is that they keep us a mid level to elite team every year. After two seasons of BS "It has to change and it will change." With a Larry aproved, Rick tested, line up I say we win 56.

avoidingtheclowns
08-03-2006, 05:13 AM
I would say currently that a reasonable guess is #7 or 8 in the east. probably 40 wins.

We're not terrible, for as much as people harp on JO and Jack and Jamaal... if they play, they'll be a decent team. Tinsley has lead the league in assists when he plays and is capable of scoring. Jack has some fairly good shooting nights when he takes high quality shows. JO obviously can score when he shows up and isn't injured. Danny wasn't a rookie of the year candidate, but was definitely a top 10 candidate. And he's going to show a lot of improvement. Jeff Foster has always been solid, not a premiere player but he contributes on both ends of the floor especially rebounding. Marquis Daniels has displayed brilliance on the floor in the past, hopefully he can bring that with some of the consistancy he lacked in Dallas. Harrison made some improvements last year, hopefully more will arrive this season. And we can hope there will be more consistancy and improvement shown from Sarunas.

Obviously thats the overly optimistic outlook. The attitudes haven't been addressed (well, apart from Ron), we don't have a solid #2 scoring option to drag defense off of JO. Foster/JO/Tinsely are likely to spend quite a bit of time injured.

Some people don't have any faith in Rick Carlisle as a coach. I honestly believe that he is a great coach and that he deserves a lot of the credit for us even making the playoffs the last two years (although the same credit for 2005 playoffs needs to go to Reggie and his amazing feb/march carrying the team on his ridiculously weak knees). He got the most out of our team when the players with significant salaries were either injured (reggie) or suspended (everyone else) after the Detroit brawl and beyond. Look at how many starting lineups we've had the last two years... its ridiculous. And unlike Larry Brown in NY it wasn't because of his being fickle with players. Can you imagine if the last two years had happened with Larry Brown as a coach? While he's a great coach, he constantly self-destructs (like in 05 in the finals)... with everything that happened Nov 04 I can see Brown having a complete breakdown. So I think Rick has gone through injuries/events and attitudes that many coaches never do. They may deal with these events individually but not so many over the course of two seasons... Rick got a large combo plate of the #91 special.

Anyway, all that being said, I think the Pacers will only do as well as this past year. I can't remember a geniunely bad Pacer team. Inconsistant teams, most definitely (basically post Bird coaching retirement). I don't think this lineup helps break that cycle but I also don't think its going to seriously damage the team. Only if we trade for a 07 Portland pick first round pick are we going to get close to Oden.

able
08-03-2006, 05:39 AM
Well I expect strangely enough perhaps, that the impact of Al is of locker and friendship quality only, in other words it might improve some things, but I still remember AL and JO playing upfront together and 8 out of 10 it wasn't that pretty.

I fully expect Daniels to have a break out year, he's definitely a possibility for a JO repeat as a player not fitting in with his current team and getting a fresh start (eagerness) with another team.
I almost expect him to start, unless a better SG is signed, and I don't expect Jax back on the team, unless in a very diminshed role, please register here that talk from TPTB has been about almost all players, except Jax, they have clearly addressed from the end of season till now, what they wanted to do with Tins, they considered trading Sara, but made it AJ in the end, and I personally think that it was for "locker" reasons, the sense of "entitlement" that AJ carried might have made the locker a less pleasurable surrounding if he had to move to (IF Sara works out better this year, something I alas doubt) 3rd string again, and there is no way he beats a healthy Tins to the starting job.
Greene has a lot of upside and can for now fill that 3rd string spot at the 1 & 2 easily, there must be more there then we think and who knows what we are going to see from him.
Granger at the 3, I can certainly live with that, White can back up that spot to, as can Daniels, also should Jax stay he can backup that position as well as the 2.
JO at the 4, Powell and Baston to backup, not the strongest of backups by the look of it, and the unknown factor Williams, will still be solid enough, after all we are only talking 10 -13 minutes available there anyway.
the 5 looks to be our glaring weakness at the moment, though we have Foster still there, and who knows maybe he can stay healthy this year (or BE healthy for a change) and certainly we are allowed to expect something out of David, and I still expect us to re-sign Polly, but I am also assuming that we are still looking there, though I could live with Jeff, David and Scott there for now.

Now as far as defense goes, it seems we have more perimiter defenders then we had, certain players are specifically known as good defenders, and I think we will probably be in the top 5 of defending teams, most new players and even a pick are "known" for defensive prowess, something we outside of Artest rarely had, face it; Granger, JO, Daniels, White, Baston and Greene at the very least are known to be "good" defenders, so no worries there from me.

in that line-up I have some expectations, and that should result in around 50 wins, with depending on the matchup perhaps a decent fight in the second round, though once you are in the playoffs, all predictions and stats go out of the window, being there is having a chance.

indygeezer
08-03-2006, 06:56 AM
The Sunshine side of me says Bird has gotten into Jax, Tins, and Harrison's face enough to force his will upon them and they get thier **** together. That's the case..........55 wins. 2nd round exit.

The dark side says if we lose a few, the wheels will fall off, RC's Dr. Frankenstein side returns, and we end up with 35-38 wins.

WITH Al, I see JO getting beaten down and missing 1/3 of the season and we longing for results as good as my dark side prediction.


Now...my real feeling is that at the start we will do well...then we'll falter....RC will tinker pissing everybody off....we'll lose a ton....there will be talk of RC firing and deadline trades involving the TE and every Pacer player and draft pick.

Have I mentioned I have NO faith in RC's, Jax, Tinsley's, or Harrison's ability to change their ways. One of them maybe, the others for a little while, but certainly not all of them and certainly not for an entire season.

DisplacedKnick
08-03-2006, 07:09 AM
IMO about 45 wins - +/- 3 or so. But that assumes Tinsley stays healthy.

If Tinsley gets hurt, replace a .55 winning percentage with about .2 for however long he's out. Frex, he misses 30 games, knock off about 10 wins from that.

If JO's out, replace a .55 winning percentage with about .35 for however long he's out.

If BOTH Tinsley and JO are out - well, nobody wants to go there.

Skaut_Ech
08-03-2006, 07:28 AM
I've taken a weird position, right now. I'm not looking for much from this squad as it stands. My anticipation for the season stems from focusing on watching individual players I like and watching to see if they grow (Saras, Maceo, Granger, Marquis, Williams), but on the whole, I'm not expecting too much.

I don't mean to sound redundant, but as long as we have the same core of starters and the samne coach, I'm not looking for much. I'll content myself with individual performances/growth and bide my time.

rexnom
08-03-2006, 07:48 AM
I've taken a weird position, right now. I'm not looking for much from this squad as it stands. My anticipation for the season stems from focusing on watching individual players I like and watching to see if they grow (Saras, Maceo, Granger, Marquis, Williams), but on the whole, I'm not expecting too much.

I don't mean to sound redundant, but as long as we have the same core of starters and the samne coach, I'm not looking for much. I'll content myself with individual performances/growth and bide my time.
I agree with this. Even with Al, nobody is expecting us to contend. I just want to see us progress. JO is still young and he seems more committed than ever to leading this team to victory. I think with some years of steady progression we could be contending in two years and that isn't bad.

Doug in CO
08-03-2006, 08:23 AM
37-40 wins

Injuries could make it even uglier

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 08:30 AM
Well I always hope for the best but if Jax, Tinsley and Harrison are are on the roster this season I can only assume the Pacers could not get what they wanted for those players, so instead of making all the changes needed this summer, I'll look at it as a two year reshaping project. We may just have to face the fact that this upcoming season will be a transition year in many ways.

If the Pacers can't get what they want for who they want to get rid of, then I can understand them hoping this season turns out as good as it can, but also a season for TPTB to learn what they have in some of their new young players, and then next summer trade DH, Jax, Tins and maybe JO.

As far as number of wins, I have no idea right now.


Peck, I still expect the Pacers to be a good defensive team, they won't be the Bulls or Spurs, but hopefully they can be somewhere between 5th and 10th best

rexnom
08-03-2006, 08:32 AM
Again, I just want to see us starting the process. Frankly, if we win 20 games but have great chemistry, JT and JO play injury free years, and Danny and Marquis come along real nicely (as well as Hulk, Flight, and Shawne) then that would make me extremely happy.

As long as we don't trade away that pick.

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 08:46 AM
Again, I just want to see us starting the process. Frankly, if we win 20 games but have great chemistry, JT and JO play injury free years, and Danny and Marquis come along real nicely (as well as Hulk, Flight, and Shawne) then that would make me extremely happy.




If all that happens then the Pacers will win at least 45 games

Gamble
08-03-2006, 08:47 AM
I say 45 wins and a 2nd round depature. It is going to be a real
possiblity that Jax and Tinsley will be shipped midseason and chemistry
will still be among the many issues plagueing the team.

With that said given the transition BIrd is making I can give be forgiving
of a mediocre season in hopes of better things to come.

rexnom
08-03-2006, 08:51 AM
If all that happens then the Pacers will win at least 45 games
Obviously, my point was that I think next season is about more things than win totals. For the first time in a few years we'll probably enter the season without a legit chance at the championship.

And like you said, wins will probably come with the other good things we are looking for.

Trader Joe
08-03-2006, 09:14 AM
Honestly without Baby Al, I think we are lotto bound. I can live with it as long as the young players at least make progress and we look as if we are on an upswing.

Trader Joe
08-03-2006, 09:16 AM
If all that happens then the Pacers will win at least 45 games

Correction at least 50 games. Injury free years for JO AND TINS? Crazy, but it would be a nice change of pace. DG and Quis both improve? Again would be a nice change of pace. Hulk, Flight, and Shawne improve and show more potential? Icing on the cake. We will probably be lucky if one of these things happen tho my bets on the second one.

Phildog
08-03-2006, 09:29 AM
i can't believe this has been what Pacers fans have been reduced to. It wasn't that long ago when we were competing for an eastern conference championship. Have 2 injury plagued/ron artest years sucked the life out of all Pacers fans?

Who the He** would've thought Miami could have won a championship with a bunch of washed up winers last year. TEAM CHEMISTRY did it. If this team develops that finally, we can make a run. A few key aquisitions and we are a Miami waiting to happen.

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 09:40 AM
Who the He** would've thought Miami could have won a championship with a bunch of washed up winers last year. TEAM CHEMISTRY did it. If this team develops that finally, we can make a run. A few key aquisitions and we are a Miami waiting to happen.

The one problem with that is we don't have players as good as Wade or Shaq

Shade
08-03-2006, 10:10 AM
With no Al and no other significant changes, we are a 40-win team AT BEST. I'd bet about 36-38 wins or so and the lottery.

Doug in CO
08-03-2006, 10:11 AM
With no Al and no other significant changes, we are a 40-win team AT BEST. I'd bet about 36-38 wins or so and the lottery.

Gee Shade - isn't that what Kravitz said? ;)

Tyrion
08-03-2006, 10:24 AM
With no moves we are a 30 win team talent-wise. BUT, Carlisle is IMO the best regular season coach in the NBA, so we end up with about 44 wins and a first round exit (keeping us out of the lottery again).

Our best hope is if Jackson is either gone or doesn't start, and if with Daniels starting we can significantly improve our defense. I disagree with Peck in that I think that the defense will be much, much better than last year (although not nearly as good as a few years ago).

I don't expect Carlisle to do it, but I really want to see Daniels start, backed up by White. White needs to learn how to play in the NBA, and those two could make a huge difference in our perimeter defense.

Shade
08-03-2006, 10:31 AM
Gee Shade - isn't that what Kravitz said? ;)

Unlike :kravitz:, I expect changes to be made.

Phildog
08-03-2006, 10:32 AM
The one problem with that is we don't have players as good as Wade or Shaq

JO is better than Shaq, and no,we don't have a DWade, but only one team in this league does, and guys like that don't come along very often. Putting together a team that works together is the main goal. Having a dominant guard is not always a recipe to win.

We're close, if we can put it all together. How about Quis'? What's he really capable of? We don't know yet. Granger? What's he got? Al? We already know what he can do.

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 10:36 AM
JO is better than Shaq,

Even though last season Shaq was probably 50% the player he was in 2000 and 2001 he was still better last season than JO. I'm not ripping JO, but that is how good Shaq was in 5 years ago.

Bball
08-03-2006, 10:39 AM
As of now I feel we're lottery bound BUT Walsh will do everything in his power to not see that happen and so I could see a midseason trade (or coaching change) to attempt to invigorate the team for a playoff push.

I wouldn't have a problem with this team heading to the lottery to tell you the truth.

But now that we've seen some confirmation that our first round draft pick was included in the Al offer, then that changes the thinking on that somewhat (altho right now we still have it). ...Unless we really plan to shake things up if this team underperforms and try and trade our way back into the draft... :hmm: :idea:

But with Carlisle coaching and JO expected to be the leader of the team under Carlisle- 36 wins. Carlisle eventually will go Carlisle and set JO up for failure unless JO finally has the 'lightbulb' game and takes his approach to another level.

It's a given that Tinsley will be hurting, sick, and pouting so I don't even consider the "IF Tinsley is healthy" angle.

Those things mean the chemistry experiment will fail and Sjax will again try and do too much due to the vacuum that will be created... and he's already lost the fans anyway so it'll be a nasty mood inside Conseco as the losses mount.

The new players won't make much difference unless Carlisle really can change his stripes and win back the team that he already lost. Carlisle is a great coach... except when he's not. And his clock has run out. He almost needs to be like a new coach and that's asking a lot on a lot of different levels. I don't think he can win back this team with the core remaining intact.

This is a transition year at best.
EDIT: And now that I think about it... next year will be as well. By not changing out the coach this off season we're going to be left with a question next summer of what the new coach could've done with these same players. Will management really 'clean house'? ...Or will they want to see how this 'core' reacts to a new coach? I suppose a midseason coaching change MIGHT answer some questions BUT it's not like the best prospects are out there at midseason so we're probably looking at an assisstant getting the temporary nod anyway (and nothing like a coaching change would happen unless the playoffs are slipping out of reach).

-Bball

Phildog
08-03-2006, 10:46 AM
Even though last season Shaq was probably 50% the player he was in 2000 and 2001 he was still better last season than JO. I'm not ripping JO, but that is how good Shaq was in 5 years ago.

<TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 5px" align=middle width=65></TD><TD noWrap><!-- PLAYER NAME -->Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C


Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C

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20
</TD><TD>REB
9.2
</TD><TD>ASST
1.9
</TD><TD>FG%
60
</TD><TD>MIN
30.6
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Jermaine O'Neal, #7-FC
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20.1
</TD><TD>REB
9.3
</TD><TD>ASST
2.6
</TD><TD>FG%
47.2
</TD><TD>MIN
35.3
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Shaq can't hit a free throw if his life depended on it. Plus, he's got DWade taking pressure off of him in the post.

I've gotta say.....JO beats Shaq hands down at this point.

Sollozzo
08-03-2006, 11:53 AM
<TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 5px" align=middle width=65></TD><TD noWrap><!-- PLAYER NAME -->Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C


Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C

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20
</TD><TD>REB
9.2
</TD><TD>ASST
1.9
</TD><TD>FG%
60
</TD><TD>MIN
30.6
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Jermaine O'Neal, #7-FC
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20.1
</TD><TD>REB
9.3
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2.6
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47.2
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35.3
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Shaq can't hit a free throw if his life depended on it. Plus, he's got DWade taking pressure off of him in the post.

I've gotta say.....JO beats Shaq hands down at this point.



Those stats don't help your argument.

Did you notice Shaq shoots almost 13 percentage points better than JO?

Shaq has played 132 games the past 2 years as a player in his mid 30's. JO has played 95 as a player in his 20's.

grace
08-03-2006, 12:56 PM
I've lowered my expectations to possibly finishing .500. (Or was that what I said at the party?) Anyway, I'm not as optimistic as I was then.

Slick Pinkham
08-03-2006, 01:01 PM
With no additional moves I'm thinking anything in the 37-44 win range is possible, depending upon player health.

If Al is added with no player lost, I'd bump it up 2 or 3.

It would take a significant trade or coching change to convince me that over 45 wins is anything but super-wishful thinking.

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 01:02 PM
<TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 5px" align=middle width=65></TD><TD noWrap><!-- PLAYER NAME -->Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C


Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C

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20
</TD><TD>REB
9.2
</TD><TD>ASST
1.9
</TD><TD>FG%
60
</TD><TD>MIN
30.6
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Jermaine O'Neal, #7-FC
<STYLE> div.snapshotLabel {text-align:center; padding:0px 10px 0px 10px;} div.snapshotText { text-align:center; padding:0px 10px 0px 10px; position:relative; font-weight:bold; top:0px; left:0px; color:#000; font-size: 18px; } table.bgBdrStats {background-color:#ccc;} table.bgBdrStats td {background-color:#eee; font-family:verdana; color:#000; font-size:10px; text-align:center;} </STYLE><TABLE class=bgBdrStats cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top align=middle><TD>PPG
20.1
</TD><TD>REB
9.3
</TD><TD>ASST
2.6
</TD><TD>FG%
47.2
</TD><TD>MIN
35.3
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Shaq can't hit a free throw if his life depended on it. Plus, he's got DWade taking pressure off of him in the post.

I've gotta say.....JO beats Shaq hands down at this point.


Those stats really don't tell me anything. All I know is when I watch a Heat game and compare it to a Pacers game, Shaq has a greater impact on the game than JO does.





With no additional moves I'm thinking anything in the 37-44 win range is possible, depending upon player health.

If Al is added with no player lost, I'd bump it up 2 or 3.

It would take a significant trade or coching change to convince me that over 45 wins is anything but super-wishful thinking.


If Al only means 2 or 3 wins, then the Pacers shouldn't sign Al

Bball
08-03-2006, 02:57 PM
If Al only means 2 or 3 wins, then the Pacers shouldn't sign Al

You don't buy into the idea that Al gives the Pacers an escape plan to trade JO, get a first round pick (that they'd give up for Al), and let Al slide into JO's spot?



-Bball

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 03:08 PM
You don't buy into the idea that Al gives the Pacers an escape plan to trade JO, get a first round pick (that they'd give up for Al), and let Al slide into JO's spot?



-Bball


Yes I do I think Al allows the pacers to trade JO, but I must admit I'm starting to buy into the hype about how hard JO is working in the offseason.

Robertmto
08-03-2006, 05:21 PM
Didn't he show the same "work-ethic" annd "improvements" last off season?

Sollozzo
08-03-2006, 05:22 PM
Yes I do I think Al allows the pacers to trade JO, but I must admit I'm starting to buy into the hype about how hard JO is working in the offseason.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but haven't we heard the "JO is working hard" stuff every summer since he signed his 126 million dollar deal in 2003?

And I'd still rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al Harrington for 50 something million.

rexnom
08-03-2006, 05:23 PM
Didn't he show the same "work-ethic" annd "improvements" last off season?
I don't know...Mike Wells says he is impressed and that JO is in the best shape he has ever seen him...and Mike Wells usually tells it like it is...even Donnie was impressed.

I'm totally on the JO bandwagon.

Robertmto
08-03-2006, 05:34 PM
So i guees the Pacers' fans hope are in the hands of :burke:

Is he the trainer?

Naptown_Seth
08-03-2006, 06:43 PM
The one problem with that is we don't have players as good as Wade or Shaq
Going into last season they were considered top level contenders, and not just by homers.

What did that team have that this team doesn't? Ron Artest, AJ, AC, Fred.

Losing Ron for nothing (if we assume no Al) hurts, but they still won plenty of games without him the last 2 seasons. Losing him drops them from title caliber, but certainly not to lottery.

AC was out a big chunk of last year and isn't a title piece. Helpful, but if he came back for Daniels would people really think they were a title caliber team suddenly?

AJ. Same thing. Trading Greene and Armstrong for AJ makes them a lot better?

Fred. Definitely helpful, but shot around 30% from 3 the final couple of months last year and has been injured. Does playing him instead of White or Daniels really make the Pacers that much better?

Granger is going to be better, Harrison might be, SarJas might be.


Frankly I don't see how this summer is much different than last summer if Al joins the team. What hurt the team was injuries. Get rid of that and this is a strong team. Have more injuries and you have to expect struggles.

Peck
08-03-2006, 06:58 PM
Going into last season they were considered top level contenders, and not just by homers.

What did that team have that this team doesn't? Ron Artest, AJ, AC, Fred.

Losing Ron for nothing (if we assume no Al) hurts, but they still won plenty of games without him the last 2 seasons. Losing him drops them from title caliber, but certainly not to lottery.

AC was out a big chunk of last year and isn't a title piece. Helpful, but if he came back for Daniels would people really think they were a title caliber team suddenly?

AJ. Same thing. Trading Greene and Armstrong for AJ makes them a lot better?

Fred. Definitely helpful, but shot around 30% from 3 the final couple of months last year and has been injured. Does playing him instead of White or Daniels really make the Pacers that much better?

Granger is going to be better, Harrison might be, SarJas might be.


Frankly I don't see how this summer is much different than last summer if Al joins the team. What hurt the team was injuries. Get rid of that and this is a strong team. Have more injuries and you have to expect struggles.

Every thing you are listing is exactly why many of us over the past few years never bought into the hype that this team was ever truely a championship caliber team.

The team was built around J.O. & Ron & at least one half of that combo was never going to be dependable.

As you said all of the other pieces were really not going to make or brake that team however any hope of a title that some of you had went out the window with Ron. Some of us just never believed that that window was ever open because of Ron.

Jon Theodore
08-03-2006, 07:14 PM
<TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 5px" align=middle width=65></TD><TD noWrap><!-- PLAYER NAME -->Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C


Shaquille O'Neal, #32-C

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20
</TD><TD>REB
9.2
</TD><TD>ASST
1.9
</TD><TD>FG%
60
</TD><TD>MIN
30.6
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Jermaine O'Neal, #7-FC
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20.1
</TD><TD>REB
9.3
</TD><TD>ASST
2.6
</TD><TD>FG%
47.2
</TD><TD>MIN
35.3
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Shaq can't hit a free throw if his life depended on it. Plus, he's got DWade taking pressure off of him in the post.

I've gotta say.....JO beats Shaq hands down at this point.

that is evidence that shaq is better, JO's stats are BARELY better and he plays 5 more minutes and he definitely is the focus of our teams offense.

Sollozzo
08-03-2006, 07:15 PM
Going into last season they were considered top level contenders, and not just by homers.

What did that team have that this team doesn't? Ron Artest, AJ, AC, Fred.

Losing Ron for nothing (if we assume no Al) hurts, but they still won plenty of games without him the last 2 seasons. Losing him drops them from title caliber, but certainly not to lottery.

AC was out a big chunk of last year and isn't a title piece. Helpful, but if he came back for Daniels would people really think they were a title caliber team suddenly?

AJ. Same thing. Trading Greene and Armstrong for AJ makes them a lot better?

Fred. Definitely helpful, but shot around 30% from 3 the final couple of months last year and has been injured. Does playing him instead of White or Daniels really make the Pacers that much better?

Granger is going to be better, Harrison might be, SarJas might be.


Frankly I don't see how this summer is much different than last summer if Al joins the team. What hurt the team was injuries. Get rid of that and this is a strong team. Have more injuries and you have to expect struggles.


Last summer was fools gold. Just as Peck stated, there were many here who didn't believe the Pacers were anything close to a championship caliber team. Why people here had the Pacers going to the finals over teams like Miami and Detroit is still well beyond me.

It is still beyond me how someone could think that a team who went through the trauma that this one did in 04-05 could magically put it all behind them and compete for a world title, minus Reggie Miller, who was the major reason they even made it to the 05 playoffs.

2004-2005 would have been a complete embarrassment if we didn't have a 39 year old Reggie Miller to put the team on his back. And say what you will about Stephen Jackson, but he played well during that stretch in 2005.

I wouldn't say we won "plenty of games" without Ron Artest on the team. We were what 44-38 in 04-05? Would have been much worse without Reggie.

We were 41-41 last year, correct? But we were a few games over .500 when Ron left, so that means we were below .500 without him.

I wouldn't call that "winning plenty of games."

I don't mean to be pessimistic, but I don't see how this team is even close to Miami, Chicago or Detroit. Cleveland has James, so that puts them right there. New Jersey is still a deeper team than we are. Teams like Washington, Orlando, and Toronto will be battling us for playoff spots.

Thirtysomethin
08-03-2006, 08:19 PM
You don't buy into the idea that Al gives the Pacers an escape plan to trade JO, get a first round pick (that they'd give up for Al), and let Al slide into JO's spot?



-Bball

If Al Harrington is coming here so we can trade JO, I have just become a huge Al fan, PLEASE PLEASE DONNIE, trade JO for Pierce or the like,

Gimme my starters of:

Marquis
Pierce
Granger
AL
Harrison


Thats the thing, I think JO and AL do not compliment each other at all. Not in this new NBA, WE need to focus on shooters who can drive to the hoop. I don't want to stock pile power forwards. U gotta get Pierce or the like. OUR BACKCOURT IS VERY WEAK right now,

Robertmto
08-03-2006, 08:25 PM
I can't see Marquis playin point for 25+ mins.

And haven't Mavs fans been saying he isn;t a very good decision maker?

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 09:14 PM
From what Wells and Montieth have said this is the first summer where JO is working out at Conseco all summer with the Pacers training staff and coaches.

Unclebuck
08-03-2006, 09:17 PM
Some of us just never believed that that window was ever open because of Ron.

And others of us believed the window was open only because of Ron.