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View Full Version : Think about the unthinkable....what do we do if we don't get Big Al?



CableKC
08-01-2006, 08:15 PM
This was brought up in the Pacer RealGM....and given the most recent development in all this.....if we take Harrington out of the equation.....given the T/E that we have and coupled with "preferable...but not required" moves that we would hope that are made ( aka...moving Tinsley or SJax )....where do we go from here?

I see at least 1 of 3 possible moves:

1 ) Use the T/E by itself to add depth to the PF or Center spots
2 ) Use the T/E in conjuntion with moving Tinsley to get a starting ( but likely overpaid ) quality PG.
3 ) Use the T/E in conjuction with moving SJax to get a starting ( but likely overpaid and likely overrated ) quality Center.

Regardless....any move that we make...assuming that Harrington does not join us.....should be used to acquire any other player outside of a SG or SF since we are deepest at those positions.

PacerFreak31
08-01-2006, 08:22 PM
I know I am one of the few but I hope we don't get AL. I think we can trade and get an upgrade at SG. I think foster and SJ could be traded to get a decent SG. The thing about the NBA these days are that some teams are willing to trade a good player if they rid themselves of a bad contract. So we could do something like trade Foster and SJ for a good SG and in the same trade or a different trade trade our TE and cash for the other player with a bad contract (which would be the only reason for the team to trade away the good player). I say this because we know just a draft pick and our TE isn't going to get us a good player.

I think Wilcox would also be a good addition especailly if we were going to let JO play center. Wilcox is by far a better post defender than Harrington.

Kegboy
08-01-2006, 08:29 PM
I guess PacerCrazy will have to rename his kid Danny Maceo-Jermaine.

CableKC
08-01-2006, 08:29 PM
I would think that the only reason why JONeal would be playing Center is because we got Harrington.

If we don't get Harrington...I'm not entirely in favor of having JONeal play the Center spot.

Frank Slade
08-01-2006, 08:34 PM
I guess PacerCrazy will have to rename his kid Danny Maceo-Jermaine.

Or Danny, Iverson -Jermaine ?:1outtaher

v_d_g
08-01-2006, 08:39 PM
And I was so looking forward to BIG AL hitting 1 of 2 at the line in pressure situations.

You're all going on and on as if the dude is a savior.

The Pacers didn't win (as much as they should've) when he was here (with a better team) and he's certainly not gonna be the difference that pushes them to the next level.

AnotherBirdCreation
08-01-2006, 08:48 PM
We could always use the TE to get Bonzi.

Hicks
08-01-2006, 08:50 PM
We won 61/82 games with him here.

tdubb03
08-01-2006, 08:55 PM
The TE can't be traded in conjunction with a player.

Bet that's already been posted before I can finish typing this.

BlueNGold
08-01-2006, 09:12 PM
We could always use the TE to get Bonzi.

:eek:

Eindar
08-01-2006, 09:27 PM
If we don't get Al, we'll use the TE to get either a legit Center or a Shooter from a team that needs to shed salary.

vapacersfan
08-01-2006, 09:30 PM
We won 61/82 games with him here.

Al was a very good player (even better pre surgery) make no mistake about that, but he alone was not the reason we won 61 games.

Simply not getting all does not equate to the end of the world.

Now if we dont get Al and dont make another other moves......

Hicks
08-01-2006, 09:34 PM
Al was a very good player (even better pre surgery) make no mistake about that, but he alone was not the reason we won 61 games.

Simply not getting all does not equate to the end of the world.

Now if we dont get Al and dont make another other moves......

That's just it; It's not only that I like Al and was very happy with the idea of him coming back, but if we don't get him, I don't expect us to get someone else as good as he is.

I only mention the 61 win season because of the comments above that try to say Al never helped us win anything.

vapacersfan
08-01-2006, 09:38 PM
I agree with that Hicks.

I just dont want to be stuck in another situation where we overpay (again) for a player, esp. for PR reasons, and then be stuck with a bad contract for years to come.

As for the other comments, Al did a lot of good things in his time with the Pacers. Sure he had his moments where he couldnt perform, but that was true for a lot of other guys as well. My biggest fear, besides his lackluster playoff performace the last time he was in a playoff game, is his health status.

Hicks
08-01-2006, 09:41 PM
I don't want to overpay anyone either, but honestly I think locking up Al in his prime for $57mm isn't that bad.

Los Angeles
08-01-2006, 09:46 PM
Look for the time that I spoke as though Al was here already. You'll have a hard time, because I never did. The closest you'll find is one "this is a good move" post during the "99% done" phase.

My life has been pockmarked by lessons regarding "counting chickens". Speaking as if the future has already come to pass is a sure way to ensure that it never will.

Or as the old joke goes: "How do you make God laugh? Make a plan."

Now for the question at hand: What do we do?

Granger JO Harrison. And we take our lumps like we have a pair. It's the only starting lineup at front court that we NEVER TRIED last season. I remain one of the few that believes that in 07/08, few teams could compete with it.

EDIT: provided we truly invest in it.

Eindar
08-01-2006, 09:53 PM
Look for the time that I spoke as though Al was here already. You'll have a hard time, because I never did. The closest you'll find is one "this is a good move" post during the "99% done" phase.

My life has been pockmarked by lessons regarding "counting chickens". Speaking as if the future has already come to pass is a sure way to ensure that it never will.

Or as the old joke goes: "How do you make God laugh? Make a plan."

Now for the question at hand: What do we do?

Granger JO Harrison. And we take our lumps like we have a pair. It's the only starting lineup at front court that we NEVER TRIED last season. I remain one of the few that believes that in 07/08, few teams could compete with it.

EDIT: provided we truly invest in it.

And provided Harrison could stay on the floor longer than 10mpg.

Los Angeles
08-01-2006, 09:56 PM
And provided Harrison could stay on the floor longer than 10mpg.
Times Harrison fouled out last season: 0.

The foul myth is getting out of control.

EDIT: maybe you weren't talking about fouls. Still, more than 10 mpgs is what I mean by "investing".

Achilles98
08-01-2006, 10:09 PM
any chance we can get AI? He'd certianly fill up conseco

DisplacedKnick
08-01-2006, 10:33 PM
If you don't get Al, you don't get Al. I don't think it hurts you much.

I'd look at using the TE with a player or two to get someone else. Your needs are:

1) Shooting
2) A PG who won't drive you into heart failure when Tinsley's injured
3) A better center

Work the phones and see what's out there. Al was an obvious player to go after because Atlanta doesn't want him. But if they're insisting on an unprotected 1st that's too much.

I just don't see where Al was going to make a huge difference. Maybe if I thought he was willing to go back to being a 6th man behind JO and Granger I'd feel otherwise. That's where he could best help the Pacers.

Jay Ohh
08-01-2006, 11:08 PM
Use the MLE (and more if he wants it) to try and get Bonzi Wells.

Trade the TE for Morris Peterson. This way we can give up either Jack, one of our young guys, or even Daniels if we have to to get another big man, or PG.

Tinsley
Wells
Peterson
JO
Hulk/Foster

We get shooting and a solid second scorer in Bonzi.

LoneGranger33
08-01-2006, 11:19 PM
Ok, I agree with the Bonzi Wells/MoPete approach...then we could safely rid ourselves of Stephen Jackson.

Jay Ohh
08-01-2006, 11:25 PM
Ok, I agree with the Bonzi Wells/MoPete approach...then we could safely rid ourselves of Stephen Jackson.

Pretty much. Getting those two gives us flexibility to put together a package for a good big man or PG, without really worrying about losing depth.

Maybe Jamaal Crawford for Tinsley? He's clutch, which is something we've needed for a while, and he can shoot. Only real problem with him is consistency, shot selection and defense(but he improved under LB last year) and all of those can be worked on.

Eindar
08-01-2006, 11:26 PM
Times Harrison fouled out last season: 0.

The foul myth is getting out of control.

EDIT: maybe you weren't talking about fouls. Still, more than 10 mpgs is what I mean by "investing".

Oh, I was talking about the fouls. There's a reason he didn't foul out. It's because Carlisle never let him. He averaged 3 fouls per game in 15 minutes. Now, if you extrapolate that out, it means he'd foul out within 30mpg EVERY GAME. And that's being kind, because the way David works, once he gets that first one, which usually take a few minutes, they're usually back to back and then he's out. He doesn't learn not to do what he's doing, instead deciding to embarrass the refs, which only makes it worse. So, given last season's shenanigans, if Rick had just left him in, no way he'd see more than 20 mpg in any game last year.

Hell, I'm bored, so I'll even give you a comparison. Jake Tsakalidis is a big stiff who tends to foul a lot because people beat him with quickness. He played 1 minute less per game than David, and still somehow managed to get 1 less foul per game. He also fouls more, on a per minute basis, than: Reggie Evans, Ha Seung-Jin,

The only guys I've found so far who foul as much as DH are Rafael Arujuo and Danny Fortson. That should say something there.

EDIT: Just went to ESPN.com. David ranks THIRD in Personal Fouls per 48 minutes, behind Dan Gadzuric and Andris Biedrins. I'd also like to point out that he ranked 19th in the league in Technicals, which is VERY impressive for a guy who only plays 15 mpg. Even more impressive is that he leads the league in Technicals per 48 minutes, and yes, that includes Rasheed Wallace. :D

Maybe you ought to re-think your stance on the whole "this is getting out of hand" thing. It's quite well in hand, thank you very much.

Young
08-01-2006, 11:33 PM
Actually i'm hoping we don't get Al because I don't think he is a good fit for this team and I don't want us to tie up so much money into a player like that long term. I don't think we would be considering him if he wasn't a former Pacer and Jermaine's friend.

To be honest I think that we should go after a legit big guy, like Sammuel Dalembert. I think that SD would be a great fit in here. But he has a low basketball IQ, way overpaid, and I don't know about his work ethic and he might have injury problems but I can't say for sure.

Or what about trying a deal with the Celtics? If they can't get AI, maybe we can get Delonte West and Theo Ratlif from them for TE and ? I think that Tinlsey or Jackson would match up great but I don't think the Celtics have much use for either of them to be honest. It would probably have to be TE plus Foster for those two but then we have to make sure that we have Tinsley dealt and our center position would be shaky.

Or what about a sign and trade for Drew Gooden? I bet we could get him for MLE type money. We could work a sign and trade using the TE or maybe trade Tinsley to the Cavs and find a replacement for Tinsley using the TE.

TE for Stromile Swift? Swift doesn't exactly have me excited though and I don't think that Rick is the right coach for him but I do think that Swift fits in well with what we are trying to do here and when you look at the money that Dalembert, Foyle, and guys like those are getting Swift is underpaid IMO.

I actually like the thought of what we can do with that TE. I think that we really should consider how bad we need Al though because I don't think he is needed here. He is good but when you look at our other starters they all need the ball to be effective and I think that you need some balance in your lineup and I think that we could do ourselves a favor by hopefully getting someone cheaper than Al who doesn't need the ball as much.

Al is a good player but I think that if he doesn't end up signing with else it will be a blessing in disguse. Of course though I still believe he signs with us.

Anthem
08-02-2006, 12:08 AM
EDIT: Just went to ESPN.com. David ranks THIRD in Personal Fouls per 48 minutes, behind Dan Gadzuric and Andris Biedrins.
And yet Gadzuric started 81 games year before last. So does that make Harrison a starting-quality center?

Regardless, Harrington's nothing like Big Jake. Jake's a stiff. Harrison just needs to adjust to the NBA game. Being on a emotionally stable team would help.

Sollozzo
08-02-2006, 12:51 AM
Am I the only one who would rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al for 50 something million?

rexnom
08-02-2006, 01:06 AM
Am I the only one who would rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al for 50 something million?
Yeah.

Anthem
08-02-2006, 01:26 AM
Am I the only one who would rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al for 50 something million?
Probably.

Naptown_Seth
08-02-2006, 02:16 AM
Times Harrison fouled out last season: 0.

The foul myth is getting out of control.

EDIT: maybe you weren't talking about fouls. Still, more than 10 mpgs is what I mean by "investing".
Times Harrison's rotation ended early because of foul trouble: too many to count.

I saw him pulled in the Denver game for flipping his lid and getting a tech, so its not just a myth with no evidence. I haven't even gone into the game logs to see how many times he only got 3-4 minutes and picked up 2-3 fouls in the first half and went to the bench.

Let's not start pretending that they didn't try or want to use Harrison 20mpg at least. He can't stay on the floor that long because of foul problems AND his temper.

If you think its a myth then I guess you haven't seen his horrendous Fouls per 48 number for his first 2 seasons. (9.0 last year, with no one else averaging even 6.0 per 48 - 8.5 his rookie year and again no other Pacer even hitting the 6 mark) The dude fouls A LOT and the stats prove it.


Peja 5 for 63 vs Al 5 for 46 (or 6 for 57.5), so its not $10m difference for 5 years, it's $17m. Peja would be averaging more than $3m a year more than Al.

I'll take Al and save the money AND get an extra season locked up out of it too.

Eindar
08-02-2006, 02:48 AM
And yet Gadzuric started 81 games year before last. So does that make Harrison a starting-quality center?

Regardless, Harrington's nothing like Big Jake. Jake's a stiff. Harrison just needs to adjust to the NBA game. Being on a emotionally stable team would help.

No, it makes Gadzuric a terrible player who got to start 81 games on a 30 win team.

As for Big Jake, you're only proving my point. Jake IS a stiff. Harrison is not. Yet, somehow, that 7'2" stiff managed 1 foul less per game.

And neither of these fine gentleman led the league in technicals per 48 mins played. Say what you want, but at least be willing to speak the truth. David had questions surrounding him before he entered the league. Some of those (work ethic) have been answered. Those about his attitude have not. I assure you, 29 teams didn't pass on a 7'0", 280 lb Center because of Tyrannosaurus Rex arms and questionable work ethic alone.

Believe me, I want nothing more than to see David Harrison become the starting Center on this team for the next decade. But in order for that to happen, he needs to do something which he has been unable to do so far: Grow up. Will he grow up at some point, and be able to stay on the court for any length of time? Maybe. Then again, I believe we're all still waiting on Ron Artest to grow up.

But the undeniable fact remains that he was the 3rd most foul-prone player in the league last year, and racked up more technicals per 48 minutes, and probably per game, than anybody in the league. And nobody's excuses will change that.

P.S.: Stephen Jackson was also 3rd or 4th for most technicals for the season.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 06:52 AM
EDIT: Just went to ESPN.com. David ranks THIRD in Personal Fouls per 48 minutes, behind Dan Gadzuric and Andris Biedrins. I'd also like to point out that he ranked 19th in the league in Technicals, which is VERY impressive for a guy who only plays 15 mpg.

Jerome James must not have played enough minutes to qualify. :(

RON ARTEST
08-02-2006, 07:12 AM
Am I the only one who would rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al for 50 something million?i hope you are. :laugh:

RON ARTEST
08-02-2006, 07:16 AM
hopefully the pacer's can get al harrington because they have had some bad luck the last few years (mostly because of artest) and they havent been able to get thier chemistry where it used to be.

J_2_Da_IzzO
08-02-2006, 07:27 AM
I want Iverson. I think a starting 5 of AI, Quise, DG, JO, Hulk would be a 60 win team.

FrenchConnection
08-02-2006, 08:35 AM
If we don't get Al, we'll use the TE to get either a legit Center or a Shooter from a team that needs to shed salary.

Where is a legit starting quality center that makes around 7.8 million or less? If there was one, that would be the type of contract that a team would never trade! This trade exception becomes a lot less valuable if the Al deal falls through. All it will get you at the deadline is couple of bench players.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 08:57 AM
When does the TE expire?

If it lasts until then, I think you'll find it much more valuable near the trade deadline. Think about it - you trade it to a team and it's like having an ending salary - except they don't even have to pay anybody THIS year.

Personally I hope you get Al because I'd get a lot of entertainment watching the team try to deal with Al's thinking he's a premier offensive player and taking touches and shots away from JO and Granger. But it would be better for the team if you didn't IMO.

Kegboy
08-02-2006, 08:59 AM
...

Slightly off topic...Is anyone else completely freaking out that Anthem changed his avatar? Has that ever happened before? My faith in all that is right in the world is crumbling fast. I don't see how I can be the least bit productive today with this swirling around in my head.

:shudder:

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 09:05 AM
When does the TE expire?

If it lasts until then, I think you'll find it much more valuable near the trade deadline. Think about it - you trade it to a team and it's like having an ending salary - except they don't even have to pay anybody THIS year.

Personally I hope you get Al because I'd get a lot of entertainment watching the team try to deal with Al's thinking he's a premier offensive player and taking touches and shots away from JO and Granger. But it would be better for the team if you didn't IMO.

The TE should last one year exactly. I know the few others we had recently were set at one year.

able
08-02-2006, 09:21 AM
When does the TE expire?

If it lasts until then, I think you'll find it much more valuable near the trade deadline. Think about it - you trade it to a team and it's like having an ending salary - except they don't even have to pay anybody THIS year.

Personally I hope you get Al because I'd get a lot of entertainment watching the team try to deal with Al's thinking he's a premier offensive player and taking touches and shots away from JO and Granger. But it would be better for the team if you didn't IMO.
hear hear

if we don't get him we thank whatever God we believe in and wait till something pops up that is worth the 7.6 million and adds to the team, in the meantime we use the MLE to fill the holes or trade Jax to do so, plenty of teams will be takers for a reasonable price, OR (even better perhaps) Jax rides the pine as 7th man and gets to learn his role(again).

Slick Pinkham
08-02-2006, 09:26 AM
I want Iverson. I think a starting 5 of AI, Quise, DG, JO, Hulk would be a 60 win team.

You want an 18 million dollar salary?

That probably means giving them JO, since they are not taking Tins, Jax, Granger, and the TE.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 09:43 AM
When does the TE expire?

If it lasts until then, I think you'll find it much more valuable near the trade deadline. Think about it - you trade it to a team and it's like having an ending salary - except they don't even have to pay anybody THIS year.

Personally I hope you get Al because I'd get a lot of entertainment watching the team try to deal with Al's thinking he's a premier offensive player and taking touches and shots away from JO and Granger. But it would be better for the team if you didn't IMO.
For some reason I am starting to think like this. It's crazy, I know. And I'm a huge Al fan but I won't be very disappointed if he doesn't come here.

I've been saying that we can't get better players for the TE than Al and while that's true now, that might not be true around the deadline where some teams will have already started giving up on the season.

Guys, I seriously don't know because, then again, Al might be a fantasticly calming influence on our lockerrom.

And it doesn't help that landing in the lottery for either the 2007 or 2008 drafts sounds very alluring.

I'm also a huge fan of both Hulk and Danny and have oodles of faith in them both (well, at least Danny).

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 10:41 AM
Am I the only one who would rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al for 50 something million?


Nope. The Hornets agree with you. That's about it.

Slick Pinkham
08-02-2006, 10:47 AM
How much of a step down would it be to consider Drew Gooden?

:brick:

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 10:52 AM
How much of a step down would it be to consider Drew Gooden?

:brick:

Well, that depends on if you can convince HIM that he's not a premier offensive player. Better rebounder, not as good on D and overrated in his own mind. Plus JO would still have to spend some time at center.

I'd call it a wash.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 10:52 AM
How much of a step down would it be to consider Drew Gooden?

:brick:
It depends on his asking price. He is a fantastic rebounder and doesn't need a fantastic amount of touches. Then again, I don't know how I feel about trading with the Cavs.

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 11:05 AM
It depends on his asking price. He is a fantastic rebounder and doesn't need a fantastic amount of touches. Then again, I don't know how I feel about trading with the Cavs.

I think the Cavs offered around or right at the MLE price. So it would a something higher than that.

btowncolt
08-02-2006, 11:08 AM
I think the Cavs offered around or right at the MLE price. So it would a something higher than that.

He wants something at least equal to what Nene got.

haloguy
08-02-2006, 11:19 AM
I would much rather have ai then al
I hate this up tempo ****

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 11:36 AM
He wants something at least equal to what Nene got.

Ok well then I say :tsk: to gooden

Edit I take that back, I guess it depends on who we would trade to get to that 10 million or so figure

3rdStrike
08-02-2006, 11:39 AM
Harrington ain't that great, so not getting him wouldn't be "the unthinkable."

More like a blessing in disguise if you ask me.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 11:43 AM
Ok well then I say :tsk: to gooden

Edit I take that back, I guess it depends on who we would trade to get to that 10 million or so figure
I don't want to give the Cavs anything outside of a second-rounder. If you ask me, getting Saras was a coup simply because we prevented him from going to the Cavs. That's why I would only do a sign-and-trade for Gooden if it involved the TE prominently and no first-round picks. Harsh? Maybe. But, to me, the only thing keeping LeBron from a ring is horrible GMing.

CableKC
08-02-2006, 02:05 PM
Harrington ain't that great, so not getting him wouldn't be "the unthinkable."

More like a blessing in disguise if you ask me.

The only reason why I said "unthinkable" is because I think that there was some "grand offseason scheme" that was completely hindering on the acquisition of Harrington. I agree with Peck in that I think the ulterior motive ( and long-term plan ) of signing Harrington was to make 1-last run at a Championship with "JONeal and Friends" and then blow everything up if it doesn't work. If we don't get Harrington...that plan doesn't happen.

All of these random "one-sie tw-osie" moves ( outside of the Marquis trade ) seem too random to not be part of any bigger plan. At least that is what I am telling myself......I'm hoping that it doesn't mean that TPTB are really making completely random moves in the offseason in hopes that something magical will happen.

If this Harrington deal falls through.....then that means that any offseason plan is scrapped and we are really screwed.

CableKC
08-02-2006, 02:11 PM
So....is there any ongoing moves that any of you think MUST be made ( as opposed to "LIKE to be made" ) before the start of the regular season?

Looking at how thin the market is now....with very few "decent...but likely overpriced Free Agents"....like Bonzi and Wilcox......I am beginnning to think that if we don't get Harrington....that we should just call it a night and wait it out until the Trade Deadline. With the T/E now.......we are not going to get a player that will meet our needs that will make that much of a difference.

I'm beginning to think that if we don't get Harrington....we should call it a day and wait til the Trade Deadline to see what happens.

There are alot of moves that I would like to make.......like getting an additional backup Big Man, somehow getting rid of SJax and upgrading Tinsley.....but I don't think that many of those moves are likely and will absolutely ruin the next season if we don't make them. Of course....this is praying that Baston actually can be a solid 4th Big Man off the bench behind JONeal, Foster and Harrison....and that Tinsley actually stays healthy while Carlisle loosens his reigns on him and Sarunas...and that SJax knows when to be the 2nd scoring option and when to step back and be a 3rd scoring option.

That's alot to hope for isn't it? :banghead:

Oyyy....this is going to be another long season.

FrenchConnection
08-02-2006, 02:12 PM
The only reason why I said "unthinkable" is because I think that there was some "grand offseason scheme" that was completely hindering on the acquisition of Harrington.

All of these random "one-sie tw-osie" moves ( outside of the Marquis trade ) seem too random to not be part of any bigger plan. At least that is what I am telling myself......I'm hoping that it doesn't mean that TPTB are really making completely random moves in the offseason in hopes that something magical will happen.

If this Harrington deal falls through.....then that means that any offseason plan is scrapped and we are really screwed.

QFT. We would be stuck holding two trade exceptions, one of which we traded our back-up PG to get. For people who think that the exception would be useful at the deadline, think about it this way. Usually, teams trading at the deadline are making salary dumps and usually are looking to get rid of overpaid players. Do you want a player that is considered overpaid at 7.8 million? For an impact player, that is a bargain.

able
08-02-2006, 02:20 PM
CKC I can not begin to imagine why anyone would start to think that a reputable GM like DW would not have planned what he is doing, in minute detail with so many possible forks in his planner that while we are still thinking of a plan B or C he is already executing plan W

The second you start thinking that they lost the plot and are signing just random small contracts is the moment you lost the plot completely.

In all his years with the Pacers his most inexplicable move was to draft Reggie Miller, seemingly crazy, we all know how that turned out.

sit back, relax and enjoy the ride, there are not many off-seasons you will see the Pacers this active and I am sure at one stage we will be able to see what they are doing.

Oh and I would not count on Al being the major move, I am pretty sure he is plan B but plan C and plan D fit perfectly in the moves made till now.

There are very few things certain at the moment, except that A JO stays and B Tins will stay, C Granger will stay and everyone recently signed to a guaranteed contract will stay (we could not trade them even if we wanted) will stay. As for everyone else on the roster, the MLE and Vet excemption, as well the as TE they are all available to improve the roster to what TPTB have in mind.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 02:26 PM
The only reason why I said "unthinkable" is because I think that there was some "grand offseason scheme" that was completely hindering on the acquisition of Harrington. I agree with Peck in that I think the ulterior motive ( and long-term plan ) of signing Harrington was to make 1-last run at a Championship with "JONeal and Friends" and then blow everything up if it doesn't work. If we don't get Harrington...that plan doesn't happen.


Uh, surely you don't believe you have a shot at a title THIS year do you?

Don't get me wrong - compared to the Knicks you're The Dream Team. But even with Harrington you have a moderately above average NBA frontcourt and a below average NBA backcourt - and if Tinsley gets hurt it's a well below average backcourt. I'd peg you as a 6-8 playoff seed myself - but not a playoff lock. And if Tinsley gets hurt for an extended stretch it gets worse quickly.

IMO, unless some miracle happens, you're at least 2 and probably 3 years away from really contending. This isn't like when Isiah was coaching when you had monster talent that wasn't reaching its potential - right now, and even with Harrington, the talent level just isn't there.

And I don't see why Al Harrington would be a make-or-break item in any plan.

Personally, this whole, "Let's get Al" move has more a feel of doing something to make the fans happy than anything, because he just isn't that good.

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 03:08 PM
Uh, surely you don't believe you have a shot at a title THIS year do you?

Don't get me wrong - compared to the Knicks you're The Dream Team. But even with Harrington you have a moderately above average NBA frontcourt and a below average NBA backcourt - and if Tinsley gets hurt it's a well below average backcourt. I'd peg you as a 6-8 playoff seed myself - but not a playoff lock. And if Tinsley gets hurt for an extended stretch it gets worse quickly.

IMO, unless some miracle happens, you're at least 2 and probably 3 years away from really contending. This isn't like when Isiah was coaching when you had monster talent that wasn't reaching its potential - right now, and even with Harrington, the talent level just isn't there.

And I don't see why Al Harrington would be a make-or-break item in any plan.

Personally, this whole, "Let's get Al" move has more a feel of doing something to make the fans happy than anything, because he just isn't that good.




The heat wave truly has hit New York, because you are gulping down Haterade at an alarming rate.

This "monster talent" you speak of: the difference between that year's team and this year's is Ron Artest. We've added Stephen Jackson, David Harrison and Danny Granger, and the main players have gotten older. Are you telling me that the difference between those three players and Artest is so huge that it makes the difference between being average and a "monster talent"ed team?

Mourning
08-02-2006, 03:13 PM
Uh, surely you don't believe you have a shot at a title THIS year do you?

Don't get me wrong - compared to the Knicks you're The Dream Team. But even with Harrington you have a moderately above average NBA frontcourt and a below average NBA backcourt - and if Tinsley gets hurt it's a well below average backcourt. I'd peg you as a 6-8 playoff seed myself - but not a playoff lock. And if Tinsley gets hurt for an extended stretch it gets worse quickly.

IMO, unless some miracle happens, you're at least 2 and probably 3 years away from really contending. This isn't like when Isiah was coaching when you had monster talent that wasn't reaching its potential - right now, and even with Harrington, the talent level just isn't there.

And I don't see why Al Harrington would be a make-or-break item in any plan.

Personally, this whole, "Let's get Al" move has more a feel of doing something to make the fans happy than anything, because he just isn't that good.

So very true! Good post DK!

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
08-02-2006, 03:16 PM
The heat wave truly has hit New York, because you are gulping down Haterade at an alarming rate.

This "monster talent" you speak of: the difference between that year's team and this year's is Ron Artest. We've added Stephen Jackson, David Harrison and Danny Granger, and the main players have gotten older. Are you telling me that the difference between those three players and Artest is so huge that it makes the difference between being average and a "monster talent"ed team?

Look at the rest of the conference now and compare that to when Al was still here.

Then we had Reggie too!

Not too mention the riskyness of relying on Tinsley :shudder: :uhoh:.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 03:16 PM
The heat wave truly has hit New York, because you are gulping down Haterade at an alarming rate.

This "monster talent" you speak of: the difference between that year's team and this year's is Ron Artest. We've added Stephen Jackson, David Harrison and Danny Granger, and the main players have gotten older. Are you telling me that the difference between those three players and Artest is so huge that it makes the difference between being average and a "monster talent"ed team?

You had a backup PG who could fill in when Tinsley was hurt. Two of them actually.

And then there was a guy by the name of Reggie Miller - I can see why he'd be easy to forget. Wasn't an impact player at all. :rolleyes:

Not to mention Artest.

Not sure what heat in NY has to do with anything - let me know about that, would you?

hoopsforlife
08-02-2006, 03:21 PM
The heat wave truly has hit New York, because you are gulping down Haterade at an alarming rate.

This "monster talent" you speak of: the difference between that year's team and this year's is Ron Artest. We've added Stephen Jackson, David Harrison and Danny Granger, and the main players have gotten older. Are you telling me that the difference between those three players and Artest is so huge that it makes the difference between being average and a "monster talent"ed team?

I don't see any "hate" in his post. Just a large helping of truth about the whole fiasco. :shrug:

Since86
08-02-2006, 03:24 PM
Times Harrison's rotation ended early because of foul trouble: too many to count.

I saw him pulled in the Denver game for flipping his lid and getting a tech, so its not just a myth with no evidence. I haven't even gone into the game logs to see how many times he only got 3-4 minutes and picked up 2-3 fouls in the first half and went to the bench.

Let's not start pretending that they didn't try or want to use Harrison 20mpg at least. He can't stay on the floor that long because of foul problems AND his temper.

If you think its a myth then I guess you haven't seen his horrendous Fouls per 48 number for his first 2 seasons. (9.0 last year, with no one else averaging even 6.0 per 48 - 8.5 his rookie year and again no other Pacer even hitting the 6 mark) The dude fouls A LOT and the stats prove it.


Peja 5 for 63 vs Al 5 for 46 (or 6 for 57.5), so its not $10m difference for 5 years, it's $17m. Peja would be averaging more than $3m a year more than Al.

I'll take Al and save the money AND get an extra season locked up out of it too.

You have to let a player play, to expect improvements. You don't call practice like you call a game. The ONLY way he can get better in game, is to actually play him.

So what if he fouls out in 20mins? Better than playing him 10 and only letting him get 3fouls. NBA refrees get on a personal level with players. They study tapes. They know what he does/doesn't do. Allow him to make his mistakes, because refs will talk to you why it was a foul. The biggest problem David has is his mouth, but he's shown the ability to work hard on things.

Allow him the opportunity to talk to an official, instead of pulling him out of a game, because that only mulitplies the problem. He's frustrated at the foul, then he's frustrated because he won't get to see the floor again. Most of his techs were when he's walking off the floor, because he says the magical word.

RC is going to have to let David sink or swim. If he swims, it's gravy. If he sinks, you let him go when his salary is up, which is at the end of this year isn't it?

The decision needs to be made, either by his play or lack thereof. No one is benefiting by having him sit on the bench, picking up jokes from Scot Pollard.

Not only are the Ps shooting themselves in the foot, by not letting him figure things out during an actual game, they're shooting the other foot by not hiring a coach for him. Getting someone that actually knows the game from a centers perspective will move him along that much quicker.

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 03:25 PM
You had a backup PG who could fill in when Tinsley was hurt. Two of them actually.

And then there was a guy by the name of Reggie Miller - I can see why he'd be easy to forget. Wasn't an impact player at all. :rolleyes:

Not to mention Artest.

Not sure what heat in NY has to do with anything - let me know about that, would you?

We all know that Reggie was a leader who happened to shoot a few times. I am talking about the talent on the team.

I also forgot Marquis Daniels.

Sarunas and Armstrong are plenty capable as backups. I think you are confusing the ability to start full time and dominate with the ability to spot start/play 15 minutes a game. PGs are overrated on this board.

Since86
08-02-2006, 03:27 PM
PGs are overrated on this board.

There's where you're wrong. The PG player, not who's listed as the PG, is the most important player on most team.

That's like saying the QB position is overrated in the NFL.

You can overrate the quality of the PG player, but you can't overrate the position.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 03:29 PM
PG's CAN be overrated on a team full of players who can create their own shot.

The Pacers aren't that team.

And when Jamal Tinsley averages 50 games played per season, your backup had better be able to step in as a starter for an extended stretch of games.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 03:31 PM
Uh, surely you don't believe you have a shot at a title THIS year do you?

Don't get me wrong - compared to the Knicks you're The Dream Team. But even with Harrington you have a moderately above average NBA frontcourt and a below average NBA backcourt - and if Tinsley gets hurt it's a well below average backcourt. I'd peg you as a 6-8 playoff seed myself - but not a playoff lock. And if Tinsley gets hurt for an extended stretch it gets worse quickly.

IMO, unless some miracle happens, you're at least 2 and probably 3 years away from really contending. This isn't like when Isiah was coaching when you had monster talent that wasn't reaching its potential - right now, and even with Harrington, the talent level just isn't there.

And I don't see why Al Harrington would be a make-or-break item in any plan.

Personally, this whole, "Let's get Al" move has more a feel of doing something to make the fans happy than anything, because he just isn't that good.
Getting Al is obviously not enough. But it would be decent progress. If we get Al I think it's safe to say that our front court is OK. Our problems will stem from our "lottery" back court.

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 03:31 PM
I don't see any "hate" in his post. Just a large helping of truth about the whole fiasco. :shrug:


Oh, and I just wanted to dust off the haterade phrase. But it did come off as an overly pessimistic view from a fan of another team.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 03:35 PM
Getting Al is obviously not enough. But it would be decent progress. If we get Al I think it's safe to say that our front court is OK. Our problems will stem from our "lottery" back court.

Your frontcourt is probably OK either way - like you say, it's the backcourt that's the problem. And yeah - Harrington would be a piece - sort of.

I was just curious about CKC's: make 1-last run at a Championship with "JONeal and Friends" and then blow everything up if it doesn't work.

To me that sure sounds like making a title run THIS year, then tear it apart. IMO you're a long, long way from contending this year. Way too many gaping holes. OTOH - you have enough pieces, and those pieces are young enough, to maybe fill them in a couple of years.

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 03:37 PM
There's where you're wrong. The PG player, not who's listed as the PG, is the most important player on most team.

That's like saying the QB position is overrated in the NFL.

You can overrate the quality of the PG player, but you can't overrate the position.

The great PGs of our generation:

Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton

The title winning PGs of our generation:

Jason Williams
Chauncy Billups
Tony Parker
Derek Fisher

Since86
08-02-2006, 03:41 PM
The PG player, not who's listed as the PG, is the most important player on most team.

Jason Williams is listed as the PG, but his duties fell to DWade when it mattered. Same Fisher.

And if you don't think Tony and Chauncey aren't way above average for a PG, then you're smoking crack.

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 03:46 PM
Jason Williams is listed as the PG, but his duties fell to DWade when it mattered. Same Fisher.

And if you don't think Tony and Chauncey aren't way above average for a PG, then you're smoking crack.


Exactly who did DWade pass the ball to? I would say he was the opposite of a distributor. Same with Kobe.

Are they (Tony and Chauncy) above average? Sure. Are they great? No. And I don't see much wiggle room between above average and great. Parker and Billups are above average PGs with great teamates.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 03:53 PM
Your frontcourt is probably OK either way - like you say, it's the backcourt that's the problem. And yeah - Harrington would be a piece - sort of.

I was just curious about Seth's: make 1-last run at a Championship with "JONeal and Friends" and then blow everything up if it doesn't work.

To me that sure sounds like making a title run THIS year, then tear it apart. IMO you're a long, long way from contending this year. Way too many gaping holes. OTOH - you have enough pieces, and those pieces are young enough, to maybe fill them in a couple of years.
I don't think we're making a title run THIS year. I think we're slowly getting the pieces...and Al is going to be one of those pieces. Slowly building ourselves up. We're definitely rebuilding but this is the way we're doing it.

FrenchConnection
08-02-2006, 03:56 PM
Exactly who did DWade pass the ball to? I would say he was the opposite of a distributor. Same with Kobe.

Are they (Tony and Chauncy) above average? Sure. Are they great? No. And I don't see much wiggle room between above average and great. Parker and Billups are above average PGs with great teamates.

I agree with you about Tony Parker, but Chauncy has passed into the great category. He is the glue that holds that great team together and afterall that is what makes a PG great.

Since86
08-02-2006, 03:58 PM
Exactly who did DWade pass the ball to? I would say he was the opposite of a distributor. Same with Kobe.

Are they (Tony and Chauncy) above average? Sure. Are they great? No. And I don't see much wiggle room between above average and great. Parker and Billups are above average PGs with great teamates.


You're PG, doesn't mean the passer. Look at the list of best PGs, that we've voted on.

#1 Steve Nash
#2 Allen Iverson
#3 Gilbert Arenas
#4 Chris Paul
#5 Chauncey Billups
#6 Jason Kidd
#7 Tony Parker
#8 Kirk Hinrich
#9 Jason Terry
#10 Mike Bibby
#11 Sam Cassell
#12 Baron Davis
#13 Andre Miller
#14 Stephon Marbury

All those bolded, 9 out of the 14, are scorers. So what if they don't pass? When it came down to cruntch time, who handled the ball? Jason Williams didn't. Derek Fisher didn't. The inbounds pass went directly to Kobe/Dwade.

They made the next decision. They ran the team, and PGs run the team.

A team has to have a player than can dominate the ball when it matters. Whether it's setting up their teammates, like Nash, or scoring the ball like AI. It doesn't matter. You have to have the player capable of getting the ball where it needs to be.

Look at the list. The best teams, have the top players. The worst teams, have the worst players. That's not a coicidence.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that Dwade averaged 6.7 assists/game compared to Jason Williams'4.9, and Kobe averaged 4.5 (his worst since the 99-00 season) compared to Smush Parker's 3.7.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 03:59 PM
You're PG, doesn't mean the passer. Look at the list of best PGs, that we've voted on.

#1 Steve Nash
#2 Allen Iverson
#3 Gilbert Arenas
#4 Chris Paul
#5 Chauncey Billups
#6 Jason Kidd
#7 Tony Parker
#8 Kirk Hinrich
#9 Jason Terry
#10 Mike Bibby
#11 Sam Cassell
#12 Baron Davis
#13 Andre Miller
#14 Stephon Marbury

All those bolded, 9 out of the 14, are scorers. So what if they don't pass? When it came down to cruntch time, who handled the ball? Jason Williams didn't. Derek Fisher didn't. The inbounds pass went directly to Kobe/Dwade.

They made the next decision. They ran the team, and PGs run the team.

A team has to have a player than can dominate the ball in it matters. Whether it's setting up their teammates, like Nash, or scoring the ball like AI. It doesn't matter. You have to have the player capable of getting the ball where it needs to be.

Look at the list. The best teams, have the top players. The worst teams, have the worst players. That's not a coicidence.
See, Hicks! This is why we must continue the position voting!

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 04:03 PM
I don't think we're making a title run THIS year. I think we're slowly getting the pieces...and Al is going to be one of those pieces. Slowly building ourselves up. We're definitely rebuilding but this is the way we're doing it.

I think the same thing myself.

CableKC
08-02-2006, 04:28 PM
CKC I can not begin to imagine why anyone would start to think that a reputable GM like DW would not have planned what he is doing, in minute detail with so many possible forks in his planner that while we are still thinking of a plan B or C he is already executing plan W

The second you start thinking that they lost the plot and are signing just random small contracts is the moment you lost the plot completely.

In all his years with the Pacers his most inexplicable move was to draft Reggie Miller, seemingly crazy, we all know how that turned out.

sit back, relax and enjoy the ride, there are not many off-seasons you will see the Pacers this active and I am sure at one stage we will be able to see what they are doing.

Oh and I would not count on Al being the major move, I am pretty sure he is plan B but plan C and plan D fit perfectly in the moves made till now.

There are very few things certain at the moment, except that A JO stays and B Tins will stay, C Granger will stay and everyone recently signed to a guaranteed contract will stay (we could not trade them even if we wanted) will stay. As for everyone else on the roster, the MLE and Vet excemption, as well the as TE they are all available to improve the roster to what TPTB have in mind.

Don't get me wrong.....that's what I was essentially trying to say.......these moves don't seem to be completely random...and as you suggest....DW isn't the type to do these type of moves for no reason. I am hoping that all these moves are part of some huge master plan to do whatever DW has planned.

However, my main concern was that I would think that getting Harrington would be considered the "linchpin" in the offseason plan. We have a bunch of moves that were part of some huge plan that...now...may or may not happen.

Other then being completely bored during the offseason.....that's why I am thinking the "unthinkable".....if the Harrington deal doesn't happen....then where does that leave us?

CableKC
08-02-2006, 04:32 PM
Uh, surely you don't believe you have a shot at a title THIS year do you?

Don't get me wrong - compared to the Knicks you're The Dream Team. But even with Harrington you have a moderately above average NBA frontcourt and a below average NBA backcourt - and if Tinsley gets hurt it's a well below average backcourt. I'd peg you as a 6-8 playoff seed myself - but not a playoff lock. And if Tinsley gets hurt for an extended stretch it gets worse quickly.

IMO, unless some miracle happens, you're at least 2 and probably 3 years away from really contending. This isn't like when Isiah was coaching when you had monster talent that wasn't reaching its potential - right now, and even with Harrington, the talent level just isn't there.

And I don't see why Al Harrington would be a make-or-break item in any plan.

Personally, this whole, "Let's get Al" move has more a feel of doing something to make the fans happy than anything, because he just isn't that good.

Nope...but hello....I can wish and dream right?

If I don't....what else do I have? :laugh:

Just kidding....I wasn't going entirely sure that we would make it this season...that's why I partially wanted this Harrington deal to go through...so that IF we fail to get into the 2nd round of the playoffs....then we would have a player that can step in for JONeal when he is traded in the 2007 offseason Harrington is not only part of the 2006 offseason plan....he is part of the 2007 "tear down and rebuild from scratch" offseason plan. :rolleyes: :zip:

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 04:32 PM
You're PG, doesn't mean the passer. Look at the list of best PGs, that we've voted on.

#1 Steve Nash
#2 Allen Iverson
#3 Gilbert Arenas
#4 Chris Paul
#5 Chauncey Billups
#6 Jason Kidd
#7 Tony Parker
#8 Kirk Hinrich
#9 Jason Terry
#10 Mike Bibby
#11 Sam Cassell
#12 Baron Davis
#13 Andre Miller
#14 Stephon Marbury

All those bolded, 9 out of the 14, are scorers. So what if they don't pass? When it came down to cruntch time, who handled the ball? Jason Williams didn't. Derek Fisher didn't. The inbounds pass went directly to Kobe/Dwade.

They made the next decision. They ran the team, and PGs run the team.

A team has to have a player than can dominate the ball when it matters. Whether it's setting up their teammates, like Nash, or scoring the ball like AI. It doesn't matter. You have to have the player capable of getting the ball where it needs to be.

Look at the list. The best teams, have the top players. The worst teams, have the worst players. That's not a coicidence.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that Dwade averaged 6.7 assists/game compared to Jason Williams'4.9, and Kobe averaged 4.5 (his worst since the 99-00 season) compared to Smush Parker's 3.7.


The top teams in the league are Phoenix, Philly, Washington, and New Orleans?

Miami isn't a top team? Didn't they win?

Aren't the Knicks the worst team? Golden State was pretty bad too.



I see your point. You need to have a very good backcourt player to win a title, and I agree. But I argue two things:

a) It definitly doesn't have to be the point guard, and (most importantly)

b) The difference between the title winning point guards and the average point guards is the smallest margin of any position.


That is really my point. Quality point guards are way more common that we seem to think. Again, I state that the difference between an above average point guard and a great one are his teamates.


EDIT: Not sure if I explained that well. I'll give it another go when I have more time. But basically, PGs are like car tires. They are essential because cars are worthless without them. But they are not valuable because they are all essentially the same and are fairly easily replaced. Now, a V8 turbo charged engine is valuable. Just as essential as the tires, but much rarer and more diffulcult to come by (like a great center or SG).

Slick Pinkham
08-02-2006, 04:32 PM
#5 Chauncey Billups

All those bolded, 9 out of the 14, are scorers. So what if they don't pass?

I'll jump in here before KStat does. 8.5 assists per game and he doesn't pass? :confused:

vapacersfan
08-02-2006, 04:38 PM
Am I the only one who would rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al for 50 something million?

That's a 10-4!

PacerMan
08-02-2006, 04:41 PM
You have to let a player play, to expect improvements. You don't call practice like you call a game. The ONLY way he can get better in game, is to actually play him.

So what if he fouls out in 20mins? Better than playing him 10 and only letting him get 3fouls. NBA refrees get on a personal level with players. They study tapes. They know what he does/doesn't do. Allow him to make his mistakes, because refs will talk to you why it was a foul. The biggest problem David has is his mouth, but he's shown the ability to work hard on things.

Allow him the opportunity to talk to an official, instead of pulling him out of a game, because that only mulitplies the problem. He's frustrated at the foul, then he's frustrated because he won't get to see the floor again. Most of his techs were when he's walking off the floor, because he says the magical word.

RC is going to have to let David sink or swim. If he swims, it's gravy. If he sinks, you let him go when his salary is up, which is at the end of this year isn't it?

The decision needs to be made, either by his play or lack thereof. No one is benefiting by having him sit on the bench, picking up jokes from Scot Pollard.

Not only are the Ps shooting themselves in the foot, by not letting him figure things out during an actual game, they're shooting the other foot by not hiring a coach for him. Getting someone that actually knows the game from a centers perspective will move him along that much quicker.

You are conveniently forgetting that Rick's job is to WIN GAMES. Not to sink or swim with David Harrison. If he sinks, he costs us games. Even when he's just being stupid (with his play), he hurts us.
It's really that simple.

Since86
08-02-2006, 04:44 PM
I'll jump in here before KStat does. 8.5 assists per game and he doesn't pass? :confused:

He's a shot first PG, that was my point.

Kobe averages 4.5, and led the league in FGA. AI averages 7.4, and I'd like to see someone, anyone, make a case that he isn't a shot first PG.

Mourning
08-02-2006, 04:45 PM
You are conveniently forgetting that Rick's job is to WIN GAMES. Not to sink or swim with David Harrison. If he sinks, he costs us games. Even when he's just being stupid (with his play), he hurts us.
It's really that simple.

IF you don't take risks your player will never get the experience he needs to get better. Sometimes you have to throw a player like that in such crucial times if only to show him that you have faith in him.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Since86
08-02-2006, 04:46 PM
You are conveniently forgetting that Rick's job is to WIN GAMES. Not to sink or swim with David Harrison. If he sinks, he costs us games. Even when he's just being stupid (with his play), he hurts us.
It's really that simple.

His job is also to develop players.

Definition of a coach:
Sports. A person who trains or directs athletes or athletic teams.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coach

PacerMan
08-02-2006, 04:47 PM
Nope...but hello....I can wish and dream right?

If I don't....what else do I have? :laugh:

Just kidding....I wasn't going entirely sure that we would make it this season...that's why I partially wanted this Harrington deal to go through...so that IF we fail to get into the 2nd round of the playoffs....then we would have a player that can step in for JONeal when he is traded in the 2007 offseason Harrington is not only part of the 2006 offseason plan....he is part of the 2007 "tear down and rebuild from scratch" offseason plan. :rolleyes: :zip:

Dude, this is a PRETTY MAJOR rebuild job. Don't expect it to change a bunch next year.

Since86
08-02-2006, 04:48 PM
EDIT: Not sure if I explained that well. I'll give it another go when I have more time. But basically, PGs are like car tires. They are essential because cars are worthless without them. But they are not valuable because they are all essentially the same and are fairly easily replaced. Now, a V8 turbo charged engine is valuable. Just as essential as the tires, but much rarer and more diffulcult to come by (like a great center or SG).

A guard that is capable of handling the ball, and making high basketball IQ decisions, is the single most important aspect of basketball.

I really wish Jay could see this. He's a lot better at spelling out a point than I am, plus I think he'd just about go nuts and it would be funny.

PacerMan
08-02-2006, 04:53 PM
If you got multiple excellent defenders to go against the great guards, and a very good offensive front line (those that say slightly above average don't understand the player Danny is going to be :), then you could win a title with an average backcourt.

And IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF we get Al, he makes Jermaine stronger like he used to, Jermaine stays healthy, Danny progresses nicely,Tinsley stays healthy and one or 2 of the kids can contribute immediately (or by the all star break as Larry says)
then this team CAN contend next season.

PacerMan
08-02-2006, 04:54 PM
His job is also to develop players.

Definition of a NON PROFESSIONAL coach:
Sports. A person who trains or directs athletes or athletic teams.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coach


Definition of a PROFESSIONAL coach: A person who WINS GAMES! (or else)

Since86
08-02-2006, 05:05 PM
Definition of a PROFESSIONAL coach: A person who WINS GAMES! (or else)

The number two criticism of Rick Carlisle is that he doesn't develop players. That's why he was canned in Detriot, for playing Michael Curry and not Tayshaun.

RC wins games, obviously. Look at his record.

FlavaDave
08-02-2006, 05:08 PM
A guard that is capable of handling the ball, and making high basketball IQ decisions, is the single most important aspect of basketball.

I really wish Jay could see this. He's a lot better at spelling out a point than I am, plus I think he'd just about go nuts and it would be funny.


I sort of agree. The problem is that a guard that is capable of handling the ball and making high basketball IQ decisions is pretty easy to come by in the NBA. Futhermore, the "geniuses" at these skills (Stockton, Nash, Kidd, etc.) don't seem to win titles. The only "genius" at this skill to lead a team to a title is Magic (in my opinion). Lastly, teams have consistantly won NBA titles with throughly average point guards.

So the talent isn't rare, the genius level of these abilities rarely produces titles, and average players at the position have won most of the NBA titles.

That's spells overated to me.




It's like water. Water is by far the most essential thing we put into our bodies. But do we pay $20 for a serving like we do for a steak fillet? No. Because it's everywhere.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 05:09 PM
How did we go from a relevant Al discussion to a coach and guard discussion?

sportsmusicxboxpacer
08-02-2006, 06:40 PM
jinxed us with this post my honest feeling this sucks if we lose al

Robertmto
08-02-2006, 06:59 PM
I would just like to point out that Gilbert handles the ball as the PG, distributes the ball as a passer and takes the big shots in crunchtime.

Robertmto
08-02-2006, 07:01 PM
The great PGs of our generation:

Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton

The title winning PGs of our generation:

Jason Williams
Chauncy Billups
Tony Parker
Derek Fisher

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Payton just win a ring?

:cringe:

rexnom
08-02-2006, 07:05 PM
I would just like to point out that Gilbert handles the ball as the PG, distributes the ball as a passer and takes the big shots in crunchtime.
Your mom handles the ball as the PG, distributes the ball as a passer and takes the big shots in crunchtime.:tongue:

Robertmto
08-02-2006, 07:07 PM
Love you too Rex.

:hug:

SoupIsGood
08-02-2006, 07:09 PM
Am I the only one who would rather have Peja for 60 something million than Al for 50 something million?

Yup.

------

If we don't get Al, I don't think the plan changes. We should still be looking to bring in a quality PG.


But, I still feel pretty certain that we will get Al eventually.

Oh, and we are going to make a run at the title this year.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 07:14 PM
Love you too Rex.

:hug:
Hehe...glad you didn't misunderstand me.

:buddies:

Robertmto
08-02-2006, 07:17 PM
Hehe...glad you didn't misunderstand me.

:buddies:

I took "damn it he ruined my point" as a foreign language in High School.

FlavaDave
08-03-2006, 08:21 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Payton just win a ring?

:cringe:



Well yeah, but he wasn't the starting point guard.

He didn't win a ring, he kinda showed up for a ring.

rexnom
08-03-2006, 08:29 AM
I took "damn it he ruined my point" as a foreign language in High School.
Your mom took "damn it he ruined my point" as a foreign language in High School.

Sorry, too easy.

I decided to take the high road. I'm just that classy.

Robertmto
08-03-2006, 04:57 PM
But Payton played an important pasrt for the team in the playoffs. Didn't he show up in game 3 (i think) and take one shot - which turned out to be the game winner?

FlavaDave
08-04-2006, 08:22 AM
But Payton played an important pasrt for the team in the playoffs. Didn't he show up in game 3 (i think) and take one shot - which turned out to be the game winner?


Well sure, he didn't contribute literally nothing. But he wasn't the distributor on that team. And the point is that the NBA champs had (in my opinion) an average distributor in Jason Williams.

Robertmto
08-04-2006, 10:17 AM
Doesn't having 2 average distrubitors (Payton and JWill) produce the same effect as having one great distributor?

rexnom
08-04-2006, 10:46 AM
Doesn't having 2 average distrubitors (Payton and JWill) produce the same effect as having one great distributor?
Do you guys even remember what you're arguing about or is it just for s***s and giggles at this point?

sig
08-04-2006, 10:50 AM
What about Chris Wilcox?

FrenchConnection
08-04-2006, 11:02 AM
What about Chris Wilcox?

Contract year stud

FlavaDave
08-04-2006, 11:07 AM
Do you guys even remember what you're arguing about or is it just for s***s and giggles at this point?


I can't speak for everyone, but I'm just trying to drive you crazy.

And no, two average distributors do not equal a great one, unless they handcuff themselves to each other so that they can pass the ball together.

FrenchConnection
08-04-2006, 11:20 AM
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm just trying to drive you crazy.

And no, two average distributors do not equal a great one, unless they handcuff themselves to each other so that they can pass the ball together.

Kind of like the all star PG that would be the result of a Frankstein-like combination of Saras and Marquis?

rexnom
08-04-2006, 11:22 AM
Kind of like the all star PG that would be the result of a Frankstein-like combination of Saras and Marquis?
Wow...
6'6", plays D, great shooter, great slasher, good handles, great court vision, natural passer, good decision-maker, huge upside, good defense, good work ethic, good length...sign me up...

Robertmto
08-04-2006, 01:00 PM
Wow...
6'6", plays D, great shooter, great slasher, good handles, great court vision, natural passer, good decision-maker, huge upside, good defense, good work ethic, good length...sign me up...

Isn't that LBJ + great shooting?

:cringe:

Did I just say that?