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View Full Version : Harrington fires his agent, current negotiations could be scrapped



Frank Slade
08-01-2006, 06:44 PM
Harrington fires his agent
Soon-to-be-traded Hawk apparently will hire Arn Tellem

By SEKOU SMITH
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 08/01/06


Al Harrington plans to fire his longtime agent, according to several people familiar with the situation, meaning the month-long wait for a resolution to the Hawks-Harrington trade saga could last quite a bit longer.

Harrington took steps to sever ties with his New York-based agent Andy Miller on Tuesday, meaning the negotiating process regarding the sign-and-trade deal he's seeking, with assistance from the Hawks, is far from complete.

With Harrington seeking new representation, league rules stipulate that there must be 15 days between the time Harrington files the paperwork to fire Miller and retains new representation, meaning the process could stretch well into this month before it is resolved.

Miller did not return several phone calls.

People familiar with the situation said Harrington will hire Arn Tellem as his new agent.

Harrington is prepared to restart the entire process, the people familiar with the situation said. That means new teams could get involved, wiping out a proposed deal that would have sent Harrington back to Indiana in exchange for cash, a draft pick and John Edwards.

There were more than a half dozen teams that inquired about sign-and-trade possibilities involving Harrington before the list was narrowed to Indiana and Golden State last month. That list included the Los Angeles Lakers, the Minnesota Timberwolves, the Chicago Bulls, the Detroit Pistons and the Milwaukee Bucks.

With the news that the trade process will begin anew, the list of teams showing interest in Harrington could increase.


http://www.ajc.com/hawks/content/sports/hawks/stories/0802hawks.html

:kickcan::pullhair:

You could look at this as a good thing if Al wants to go to Indy no matter what.
Or this could be a very bad thing..

Either way, nothing is happening soon it would appear

LoneGranger33
08-01-2006, 06:47 PM
oh ****

317Kim
08-01-2006, 06:50 PM
Oh snap! That was a major kick in the ***.

microwave_oven
08-01-2006, 06:50 PM
I wonder what brought about this? Looks like Billy Knight might not be the only cause of the delay.

Jay Ohh
08-01-2006, 06:51 PM
This whole thing is ****ed up. We're going to lose out on Al, and suck again this year. Without him,we'll be lucky to make the playoffs.

avoidingtheclowns
08-01-2006, 06:52 PM
.................................................. .......so, that happened

cramerica
08-01-2006, 06:52 PM
This could work either way for us....

grace
08-01-2006, 06:52 PM
"The people familiar with the situation said."

That could be anyone on the board. I guess he was trying to find a new way to say "inside sources."

Hicks
08-01-2006, 06:52 PM
:banghead:

:suicide4:

There goes my faith that this deal will happen.

****.

aero
08-01-2006, 06:55 PM
looks like Harrington wont be a Pacer until sometime in September eh ? If he even comes back home...

BlueNGold
08-01-2006, 06:57 PM
:banghead:

:suicide4:

There goes my faith that this deal will happen.

****.

Yes, that cannot be a good sign...pardon the pun. There is probably some team out there willing to pay the price.

LoneGranger33
08-01-2006, 06:59 PM
god damn "dirty deal" talk

indytoad
08-01-2006, 07:02 PM
This is starting to become like waiting for the great Ron Artest Trade, except without any games to keep us occupied... And similarly, I'm getting to the point where I really don't care anymore.

IndyToad
Boomp whoomp

miller=clutch
08-01-2006, 07:04 PM
what is the % we will get him/not get him like 60-40 anyone wanna estimate

microwave_oven
08-01-2006, 07:05 PM
100% / 0%

miller=clutch
08-01-2006, 07:06 PM
100% we will get him or not........

Destined4Greatness
08-01-2006, 07:09 PM
I'll say 90/10. I think the org views him as JO's replacement if we have a disappointing year. So they will pursue him tirelessly.

Trader Joe
08-01-2006, 07:10 PM
We still get him.

Lord Helmet
08-01-2006, 07:14 PM
Screw you, Billy Knight. It could have been done, now we're probably not going to even get Al....

If we don't get Al, we're ****ed, there is all of a sudden now PR move and we will suffer because of it. The team we will put on the floor will simply not have as much of talent as it could.

Damnit. Damnit. Damnit.

I hope this means good news, but come on guys, this is our Indiana Pacers, do you honestly think this is a good thing?

Hicks
08-01-2006, 07:16 PM
100% / 0%

How do you figure?:

tdubb03
08-01-2006, 07:18 PM
James Posey.Do it.Now.

vapacersfan
08-01-2006, 07:19 PM
Well maybe I am just not right in the head, but I dont see this as as bad of a thing as some of you do :whoknows:

Now I will be the first to admit I liked the thought or bringing AL back, but I dont think he was going to be the savior many members here thought he was going to be.

Who knows, maybe he still does come here and he proves me wrong, but even if we dont get him I still dont see us "sinking" to a team that barely makes the playoffs.

grace
08-01-2006, 07:20 PM
Screw you, Billy Knight. It could have been done, now we're probably not going to even get Al....

How is it Billy's fault that Al is firing his agent?

On a side note: today I was listening to Dan Patrick's radio show. When he said Reggie would be on later I almost e-mailed and said "As Reggie to ask Billy to hurry up and let the Pacers sign Al Harrington. If it doesn't happen soon I'm afraid there will be mass suicides at Pacers Digest." Alas, I didn't do it so I guess you could say this is all my fault. :zip:

blanket
08-01-2006, 07:23 PM
No worry. I think he just wants an agent who will play hard ball with BK. I doubt he's interested in pursuing other teams. And regardless, if it's true that the Hawks don't want to take back any salary then our TPE is about their only option.

MSA2CF
08-01-2006, 07:24 PM
Not the end of the world, but I could see this making the Pacers give up more than they would like for Al...Hopefully, that would mean Stephen. :D

By the way, tdubb03, MJ was the man!

Lord Helmet
08-01-2006, 07:25 PM
How is it Billy's fault that Al is firing his agent?

On a side note: today I was listening to Dan Patrick's radio show. When he said Reggie would be on later I almost e-mailed and said "As Reggie to ask Billy to hurry up and let the Pacers sign Al Harrington. If it doesn't happen soon I'm afraid there will be mass suicides at Pacers Digest." Alas, I didn't do it so I guess you could say this is all my fault. :zip:
:laugh:

EVERYTHING is Billy Knight's fault.

:laugh:

Jay Ohh
08-01-2006, 07:26 PM
The hell with Al. This is becoming a pain in the ***. Sign Bonzi Wells before it's too late.

Jamaal
Bonzi
Peterson
JO
Foster

Trade for Morris Peterson, or Mo Williams, and bring Danny off the bench as our new sixth man. That's what we should focus on.

Frank Slade
08-01-2006, 07:26 PM
Well to try and take the Sunny approach ;)

If BK still just wants Cash and Picks, then the Pacers may still hold the trump Card.

Also news like this is what may light a fire under Bk and encourage an eleventh hour deal. No side benefits from this stretching on another month.

Since it sounds like Harrington has taken steps,but the move may not be 100% official, there may be a small window to make something happen before the process starts over.

Fireball Kid
08-01-2006, 07:28 PM
Man, were not getting Al Harrington.

Fireball Kid
08-01-2006, 07:29 PM
The hell with Al. This is becoming a pain in the ***. Sign Bonzi Wells before it's too late.

Jamaal
Bonzi
Peterson
JO
Foster

Trade for Morris Peterson, or Mo Williams, and bring Danny off the bench as our new sixth man. That's what we should focus on.

That lineup has Greg Oden written all over it.

Jay Ohh
08-01-2006, 07:31 PM
That lineup has Greg Oden written all over it.

Yeah, it's not like it addresses our biggest problems in shooting and a reliable second scorer or anything.

CableKC
08-01-2006, 07:31 PM
I think we're screwed.......not only does this potentially drag out the proceedings for another 2 weeks and therefore limit any other moves we may have planned....but this potentially brings in other teams that may not be in the mix.

NorCal_Pacerfan
08-01-2006, 07:42 PM
This really blows steam. First bad tv coverage next year, and now this. Grr.

blanket
08-01-2006, 07:47 PM
From the Hawksquawk.net board:
http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=161205&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


From a poster at RealGM:


word out of the ATL is that Al fired Miller because he wanted Al to take the 7.6 million TE, and INDY was not willing to do all that they could to get him. Appearently Al got offended by his willingness to work with the Pacers on his Salary and the Pacers were not willing to do what they could to get him in. It appears that Arm Tellem is calling other teams looking for the most money he can get Al now. Atlanta has also called other teams looking for players as well as picks now. Seems Pacers shoot themselves in the foot by trying to low-ball Atl.

That sounds credible to me...Al was already taking a discount to sign for $57M (the same poster claims GS offered $66M).

I have my doubts about the credibility of this (doubt a RealGM poster? what?!?).

First, I think the Pacers would be willing to pay Al the extra $10M over 6yrs he reportedly was seeking this summer by trading Foster or (preferably) Jackson or Tinsley plus filler, but it's BK and the Hawks who have stipulated that they don't want to take contracts back, so that's why the TPE comes into play. Even if this gets opened up to other teams, it ultimately falls on the Hawks to set their asking price, and if it's picks and no contracts, then the Pacers are still in the lead.

Jose Slaughter
08-01-2006, 07:53 PM
OK, now who do we get to babysit Jackson?

Maybe we could go after Wilcox before its too late.

Hicks
08-01-2006, 07:56 PM
I think the RealGM guy is full of crap. Why would Al have signed off on this other deal (which was only held up by the rest of it NOT his contract), only to pull out now and act offended? It makes no sense.

Roaming Gnome
08-01-2006, 08:13 PM
Arn Tellem is all about getting his clients the most $$$ they can get, period. The real GM report makes sense to me because, why would Al fire his agent if the deal to come here was a done deal. Maybe Al doesn't like that $7.5m start and feels another agent can get a little more.

Anyway...Not getting Al is not the end of the world, just a failed PR stunt! Looks like if we do get him, you know his new agent isn't taking a crap deal unless it is the last and final minuite. Al could cost us a lot more then we are willing to part with.


This tells me one thing...Al isn't signing anywhere until close to the end of the FA period and there will be a new bidding process for Al. I might as well stop checking here hour on the hour for a signing because it will be the end of the summer before this happens!

BlueNGold
08-01-2006, 08:19 PM
I think the RealGM guy is full of crap. Why would Al have signed off on this other deal (which was only held up by the rest of it NOT his contract), only to pull out now and act offended? It makes no sense.

Because Al can only accept a 7.6M deal from Indy if Indy and Atl come to an agreement.

Indy would not accept the the Hawks requirement of TE plus X. (X might be a 1st round pick and 3M in cash) So, although Al was willing to accept the 7.6M to go to Indy, Indy was not willing to pay X. ...so Al is moving in another direction...away from Indy.

PacerFreak31
08-01-2006, 08:26 PM
I might as well stop checking here hour on the hour for a signing because it will be the end of the summer before this happens!

I am right there with you, however, I think if we don't get AL then we make a big trade that nets us a superstar. We need a constant scorer to go with JO. I like Jacksons game but he isn't the scorer we need. So I think we will make a trade for a superstar (maybe AI?) as soon as we find out that we are not getting AL.

Roaming Gnome
08-01-2006, 08:30 PM
Ummm...most teams are not giving away superstars, now days.

Evan_The_Dude
08-01-2006, 08:34 PM
I don't see how this is a problem. I'd bet Harrington's now former agent wasn't pushing hard enough to get his client moved to where he wanted to be. I find it hard to believe that Knight was the only one holding this whole process up, I don't think it was us lowballing either. There's more to it. If Al doesn't come here, we still have the TE to use on someone else instead. But Al will be here, I'd bet my life savings on it.

burnzone
08-01-2006, 08:37 PM
This might be petty, but does anyone else other than me feel like the premature announcement of Al coming to Indy, by Henry Wofford on WTHR a couple weeks ago, was irresponsible reporting, or at least not being 100% sure?

Because while WTHR sports department may have had information directly from the front office that the deal was 99%, but 99% isn't 100%.

I just feel like ever since that report on WTHR that night, pretty much everyone is probably spending a lot of time visiting forums, and refreshing pages, hoping for the trade announcement, and I've done the same.

I think the guys in the sports department on WTHR should have done their homework a little better, and used some logic, and common sense, and realized that Indiana sports fans are not going to be ok with hearing some vague report of something possibly going down, with no details of players, picks, or $ involved, then it drags out the whole month.

And then for the next few weeks, they just say they don't have any new info on the Al situation, but they will keep us posted.

I mean, maybe I'm making too much of a big deal about it, but I think they should have held off on making that announcement until the deal was actually done. So now, because they wanted to 'break the story' first, they've put out a report of Al coming back to Indy weeks ago, and have every Pacers fan out there scouring, and refreshing message boards, waiting for the trade to be announced.

And now it looks like it might possibly not happen, due to Al firing his agent.

It could still happen, but I still am pissed at WTHR for putting that **** out there without being 100% sure. I won't even be that bothered if we don't end up getting Al, but I think it's bull**** for them to have made that report weeks ago, without knowing for sure.

I don't know how much employees get paid to do research for the reporters of the WTHR sports team, but if they are paid nicely to put reports out there that may or may not actually happen, then they're being paid too damn much. :mad:

Kegboy
08-01-2006, 08:38 PM
I don't see how this will help Al. The only other teams that can straight sign him for more money are Toronto and Charlotte, and it appears neither is interested. Atlanta doesn't want contracts in return, and while there may be other teams out there with TE's, nobody has one as big as ours.

He's probably just pissed off at the whole situation, and since he can't take it out on Atlanta's owners, he's taking it out on the one guy he can. Tellem was Reggie's agent, and he is JO's agent. In fact, I wonder if JO got a discount for referring Al.

Hicks
08-01-2006, 08:38 PM
The thing is, even if Al really is doing a 180 on us for more $$$$, he can't really get it unless Atlanta suddenly does a 180 themselves. They don't want to add players/salary, remember? Trading Al somewhere else for an even bigger contract, for players instead of a TE + cash/picks is completely counter-productive to them. So even if Al just suddenly decided to go for the greed, I don't think he has much of a choice.

AnotherBirdCreation
08-01-2006, 08:46 PM
Personally, I think he just wants to get this done. Tellum has a lot more pull in the NBA than Mr. Miller. Even if he wants more money, ATL doesn't want to take on salaries and nobody that has the cash to sign him is interested at all. He's coming here, and he might have just expedited his delivery.

Harddrive7
08-01-2006, 08:56 PM
What are the chances that D.W. says screw him, I'll go in a different direction? I'm certain that he's said that in the past about other "certain" players in the past.

Now I'm just starting to wonder if Al is really worth all of this. Maybe we could pull the trigger on another trade starting the ball rolling in a different direction not only for the Pacers but the rest of the teams potentionally waiting on another deal to break.

BlueNGold
08-01-2006, 09:06 PM
Personally, I think he just wants to get this done. Tellum has a lot more pull in the NBA than Mr. Miller. Even if he wants more money, ATL doesn't want to take on salaries and nobody that has the cash to sign him is interested at all. He's coming here, and he might have just expedited his delivery.

That crossed my mind (that it would expedite his return). It does have the chance to open up other offers. It is a frustrating, but interesting situation.

BlueNGold
08-01-2006, 09:10 PM
What are the chances that D.W. says screw him, I'll go in a different direction? I'm certain that he's said that in the past about other "certain" players in the past.

Now I'm just starting to wonder if Al is really worth all of this. Maybe we could pull the trigger on another trade starting the ball rolling in a different direction not only for the Pacers but the rest of the teams potentionally waiting on another deal to break.

DW is not getting emotional about this. This is business. To be sure, DW is looking at any other deal as he promises Al that he is doing everything to get him back. He would trade his mother for the right deal.

...I guess if anything, he might feel sorry Al is stuck in the middle of a negotiation. ...but Al knows this is a business too and is taking care of his own...

McKeyFan
08-01-2006, 09:15 PM
Sorry, but I hope it falls through. Never thought Al was a piece to our turnaround.

BlueNGold
08-01-2006, 09:18 PM
The thing is, even if Al really is doing a 180 on us for more $$$$, he can't really get it unless Atlanta suddenly does a 180 themselves. They don't want to add players/salary, remember? Trading Al somewhere else for an even bigger contract, for players instead of a TE + cash/picks is completely counter-productive to them. So even if Al just suddenly decided to go for the greed, I don't think he has much of a choice.

Isn't Al unrestricted? If so, he can sign with a team under the cap without Atl's approval. Atl is only involved in the Indy deal because we are over the salary cap and can only get Al with a trade.

Hicks
08-01-2006, 09:21 PM
Isn't Al unrestricted? If so, he can sign with a team under the cap without Atl's approval. Atl is only involved in the Indy deal because we are over the salary cap and can only get Al with a trade.

No one with the space to sign him wants Al.

Frank Slade
08-01-2006, 09:26 PM
No one with the space to sign him wants Al.

And there are very few now with that much space either way.
In fact I think only Charlotte can now sign him outright.

Ultimate Frisbee
08-01-2006, 09:28 PM
No one with the space to sign him wants Al.

Good reason to offer the MLE...

Hicks
08-01-2006, 09:36 PM
Good reason to offer the MLE...

Well, the idea of him bailing to someone esle because we won't pay him what he wants hinges on the idea that he won't take the MLE. So given that:

1) Atlanta doesn't want contracts
2) Al wants more than the MLE
3) No one who can give him more than the MLE wants him (other than us via the TE in a sign and trade)

I don't see that Al has much of a choice here if he's truly out just to get the most bucks.

This all suggests he should still come here, but I reacted the way I did on page 1 because ever since this didn't get done within a week of the WTHR announcement, I've been worrying that someway, somehow this would fall through, and it looks like it has. And with that in mind, what I want to happen rarely does, so I'm no longer expecting it.

microwave_oven
08-01-2006, 09:45 PM
I believe you are all overreacting. This deal had stalled, Al wants to be a Pacer...he is making a move to an aggressive agent, not to get him more money (because he only wanted "fair" compensation), but to get him in Indiana.

Will Galen
08-01-2006, 09:49 PM
No one with the space to sign him wants Al.

First I have to say, "I told you guys it's not a done deal until it's signed . . . "

As for no one with the space to sign him wants him, that doesn't mean much because there are three team trades.

On the plus side, Arn Tellem does work to get guys together, so if Al and Jo want to be together again . . .

Hoop
08-01-2006, 10:02 PM
We're getting Al ! :woot:

rel
08-01-2006, 10:18 PM
We're getting Al ! :woot:

Thats the spirit! :dance:




:)

rexnom
08-01-2006, 10:29 PM
Well, the idea of him bailing to someone esle because we won't pay him what he wants hinges on the idea that he won't take the MLE. So given that:

1) Atlanta doesn't want contracts
2) Al wants more than the MLE
3) No one who can give him more than the MLE wants him (other than us via the TE in a sign and trade)

I don't see that Al has much of a choice here if he's truly out just to get the most bucks.

This is the logical approach. Why, in the name of God then, would he hire a new agent?

Shade
08-01-2006, 10:30 PM
Well, ****. At best, it's now going to cost us more to get Al, most likely.

Damn you, Knight. I hope the Hawks suck forever as long as you're there. :tongue:

Suaveness
08-01-2006, 10:44 PM
Well, ****. At best, it's now going to cost us more to get Al, most likely.

Damn you, Knight. I hope the Hawks suck forever as long as you're there. :tongue:

No need to hope when it's already sucking alright for them!

diamonddave00
08-01-2006, 10:51 PM
Al Harrington will in my opinion still end up a Pacer this season Arn Tellem and Donnie Walsh have a good relationship. If Al , as everyone says wants to come back to Indy , Tellem will work to make it happen.

PacerFan31
08-01-2006, 10:53 PM
My first reaction when I heard this was to be happy.

Tellem will get what Al wants and he'll get it done quick. Tellem will put presher on BK unlike Miller did.

Shade
08-01-2006, 10:54 PM
My first reaction when I heard this was to be happy.

Tellem will get what Al wants and he'll get it done quick. Tellem will put presher on BK unlike Miller did.

But what more can we offer that we haven't already?

Shade
08-01-2006, 11:04 PM
Btw, no Al & no other significant moves = back to the lottery.

brichard
08-01-2006, 11:13 PM
I continue to be blown away by how big of a deal people think it is to sign Harrington. He isn't the second coming, he's had issues of disappearing in the playoffs, questionable shot selection, and has "I want to be the man" syndrome.

There are some positive things that he brings to the table and he may get us more wins this year than without him. However, this is definitely not a "championship" move, so I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist.

PacerFan31
08-01-2006, 11:15 PM
But what more can we offer that we haven't already?

Who says we need to offer any thing more?

Maybe it was the agent that wasn't doing enough to get the deal done and that is the reason that Tellem is now Al's agent.

beast23
08-01-2006, 11:29 PM
I think that the only conclusion that can be drawn from Al's switch of agents is that Al is growing impatient.

It seems like Al has just done the only thing in his power to send a message to the Hawks and apply a little pressure. His former agent just happened to play the unfortunate role of "pawn".

Al using another agent probably in some way negates the deal that is on the table. Now, maybe the politics that he is playing is possibly in leading the Hawks into believing that he is ready to sign for the MLE rather than wait.

If he does so, the Hawks no longer have a say in the matter and will have nothing to show for him when he leaves.

I know it doesn't make a lot of sense to drop from $7.6M to $5.4M in salary, but I would imagine that Al is just about to the point that he will do anything to get the Hawks to cooperate.

CableKC
08-02-2006, 01:35 AM
I'm not sure if this was brought up here yet....but one of the Hawks RealGM posters brought up an important point.

Arn Tellum is...first and foremost....an Agent....the more money that his client gets....the more he gets. This means that it is in his best interest to convince Al to take the deal that yields him the most money.

Its a good thing that Al would like to come back to Indy.....but its also a good thing for Al to take the biggest deal that can get.

I mentioned it to the Hawks fans before....and they don't seem to believe it.....but its naive to think that BK was holding all the cards when it came to any deal with Harrington. By moving to a more "high-powered" Agent.....they have forced the Pacers and the Hawks to open up a seat for Harrington at the negotiation table.

I still don't think that this is a good thing. I just hope that the Hawks ownership balks at taking on huge long-term contracts to match what Harrington/Tellum ultimately wants.

So...this brings up a valid point......if money is what is holding things up......is Harrington worth more then the 57+ mil that we are supposedly offering them?

Is there anyway to offer more?

If so....would we want to do so?

Naptown_Seth
08-02-2006, 02:36 AM
I don't see how this will help Al. The only other teams that can straight sign him for more money are Toronto and Charlotte, and it appears neither is interested. Atlanta doesn't want contracts in return, and while there may be other teams out there with TE's, nobody has one as big as ours.

He's probably just pissed off at the whole situation, and since he can't take it out on Atlanta's owners, he's taking it out on the one guy he can. Tellem was Reggie's agent, and he is JO's agent. In fact, I wonder if JO got a discount for referring Al.
Foretaz brought up the JO connection on RATS, and I agreed with his view. Forget the ATL fan freaks, the same people that expected Harrison to be coming in deals (and predicted it even, along with Granger). Why is Al mad at INDY? Why not be mad at BK for not moving him?

Only Hawks fans think this. He got JO'S AGENT, a very powerful agent at that. He can say to ATLANTA, either s*** or get off the pot. It is Atlanta that is making this a problem for AL. Put Indy aside for a second. ATL won't resign Al. Al needs a SnT to get more than the MLE. ATL won't take contracts back.

If Indy didn't have the TE then ATL would be FORCING him to take the MLE basically because of their refusal to accept players, even good players, in a trade deal.


So Al gets JO's agent, which connects him MORE to JO, not less, and pushes to get to the one place in the NBA that he can get more than the MLE under ATLANTA'S restrictions, not Indy's.

Arn can say to Atlanta, you want to make this a pain in the a** now, wait till we deal in the future with some of my other clients. That's what changes here. I mean you have 2 GMs involved, 1 is considered a great GM in most circles and is often mentioned for his smart moves, and the other is Billy Knight, a GM who has been a bust and difficult to deal with up to this point by many accounts.

Who do you think is at "fault" here? Who do you think Al sympathises with more, the team that will get him more than the MLE or the team making it nearly impossible to not have to take the MLE?

PacerFan31
08-02-2006, 02:39 AM
I'm not sure if this was brought up here yet....but one of the Hawks RealGM posters brought up an important point.

Arn Tellum is...first and foremost....an Agent....the more money that his client gets....the more he gets. This means that it is in his best interest to convince Al to take the deal that yields him the most money.

Its a good thing that Al would like to come back to Indy.....but its also a good thing for Al to take the biggest deal that can get.

I mentioned it to the Hawks fans before....and they don't seem to believe it.....but its naive to think that BK was holding all the cards when it came to any deal with Harrington. By moving to a more "high-powered" Agent.....they have forced the Pacers and the Hawks to open up a seat for Harrington at the negotiation table.

I still don't think that this is a good thing. I just hope that the Hawks ownership balks at taking on huge long-term contracts to match what Harrington/Tellum ultimately wants.

So...this brings up a valid point......if money is what is holding things up......is Harrington worth more then the 57+ mil that we are supposedly offering them?

Is there anyway to offer more?

If so....would we want to do so?


Honestly, who in the hell do you think would give Al that much more money? 57 million for Al at this point is pushing it, and if we had to go higher, it's not worth it, and I'm willing to bet that every other team in the league feels the same way. He said he wants to win, and he isn't going to do that on a team that can give him that much money outright.

The Hawks aren't taking players back for him because at this point they can't afford to, because of the ownership situation.

Bball
08-02-2006, 03:22 AM
If Atlanta did indeed put it's 'final' offer on the table... and the Pacers shook their heads and looked away and put their own 'final' offer on the table... And neither side did anything else... What makes anyone think that Al would necessarily be happy with the Pacers in all this? He could just as easily be mad at the Pacers as at BK.

And wasn't their some talk somewhere about Indiana pulling some player(s) "off the market"? Maybe there was an Indiana player involved in this afterall and Indiana played hardball and BK didn't blink.

Or maybe the Tinsley story had some truth to it and it's soured Harrington.

I dunno... but the first scenario sounds just as likely to me (if not moreso) as Al being all hunky dory with everything the Pacers have done so far. It takes two to tango.

-Bball

indygeezer
08-02-2006, 06:55 AM
Off topic here...sorry. Perhaps already mentioned.

Don't we have another TE that we could offer to Atl along with someone like Andrew Betts for some 2 mil $ scrub as an inducement to hurry up and complete the Al deal? In essence then it would become a $9.5 mil salary dump for Atl rather than a $7.5 mil.

indygeezer
08-02-2006, 07:04 AM
I'm not unhappy that this could sconch the deal and I FIRMLY believe that TPTB have had a Plan B in place since the inception of talks, so I'm not worried if they do.

RWB
08-02-2006, 07:20 AM
Arn can say to Atlanta, you want to make this a pain in the a** now, wait till we deal in the future with some of my other clients. That's what changes here.

Good point Seth, and if you go by past reports it seems Tellem has had a good relationship with Donnie. The good agents of course try to get their clients the best deal, however, they do not suck out the life marrow from the franchise they are negotiating with. Hiring Tellem is a good thing.

Look at someone like Drew Rosenhaus, one of the biggest names as an agent. He had that reputation of being a bulldog and very proud of it. With the TO situation ole Drew bit off more than he could chew and had finally had to do some back pedaling. Took the owners working together to let Drew know that they still do pull the strings and own the toys when all is said and done.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 08:54 AM
Arn can say to Atlanta, you want to make this a pain in the a** now, wait till we deal in the future with some of my other clients.

He can - I doubt he will. He'll want to maintain a good working relationaship with BK on the off chance that he actually lands another NBA job.

People tend not to burn bridges over a mid-level player making mid-level money. And Tellum will probably realize better than Harrington that this is what Al is.

Kegboy
08-02-2006, 09:05 AM
Off topic here...sorry. Perhaps already mentioned.

Don't we have another TE that we could offer to Atl along with someone like Andrew Betts for some 2 mil $ scrub as an inducement to hurry up and complete the Al deal? In essence then it would become a $9.5 mil salary dump for Atl rather than a $7.5 mil.

I believe that is what's already going on with John Edwards.

indygeezer
08-02-2006, 09:08 AM
I believe that is what's already going on with John Edwards.



duh....................:disturbed :alcohol: :unimpress I need to think more and speak less.

able
08-02-2006, 09:14 AM
duh....................:disturbed :alcohol: :unimpress I need to think more and speak less.
My advice to you:



Start drinking heavily

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 09:25 AM
Ok after sleeping on this one, I think I have come to the conclusion that..
I still don't know.

Although I would say hiring Tellem who is JO's agent most likely is no coincidence. Sure Tellem has a large client base and is known for high powered deals, but I am going to assume JO advised or referred Harrington to give his agent a try.

I am sure JO hopes that Harrington would join him here, but above all as a friend he is going to want to see Harrington get the best deal, be it here or elsewhere.

It would seem that Harrington was put in rare spot in which as the FA he had very little leverage. Al's current team made it clear they were moving forward without him, and recently made it known they would prefer no salaries in return. A win-win for Atl and Indiana, Harrington however would be in a win-lose scenario. This was supposed to be his big pay day although he was going back to the Team that he desired he would have to accept less due in part to how the current market shaped out and in large part to Atl's demands.

If Harrington was satifisied for the most part with what the reported contract of 6 years 57 million , but was fed up with waiting through the details being worked out, I am not sure if he would have taken a drastic of step as firing his Agent.

So I believe this new development is not neccesarily bad , but really depends on if Indiana is willing to give a little, not max money but more than the relatively moderate contract that was being put out there.

I would have to wonder as the new agent, to create more leverage would you want to perhaps call a few teams, gauge their current interest , and at least try and create a more competitive market for Harrington, with the hopes that Indiana pony up a little more cash.

I still think the ball is in the Pacers court, it's just a matter of if they feel they have made their final offer or are willing to give a little more.

With Tellem though behind the wheel now, I don't expect this to turn into a circus. I am sure he will try and resolve this as quickly as possible,and having worked with Walsh in the past certainly helps, but he will also have Harrington's best interest in mind.

blanket
08-02-2006, 09:34 AM
I believe you are all overreacting. This deal had stalled, Al wants to be a Pacer...he is making a move to an aggressive agent, not to get him more money (because he only wanted "fair" compensation), but to get him in Indiana.

Yes, that's what I've been suggesting as well.

Don't hit the panic button just yet.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 09:46 AM
I just don't want to give up an unconditional, unprotected pick.

Evan_The_Dude
08-02-2006, 10:23 AM
Shade, your sig is awful. Sorry, just had to be said. Carry on...

grace
08-02-2006, 10:23 AM
Arn can say to Atlanta, you want to make this a pain in the a** now, wait till we deal in the future with some of my other clients.

I had a similar thought when Larry fired Isiah. Remember JO really liked Isiah and was less than happy when Larry got rid of him.

haloguy
08-02-2006, 10:49 AM
Damn it
we arent getting hhim

LoneGranger33
08-02-2006, 11:59 AM
Harrington looks different than I remember him:

http://www.nba.com/news/313387.html

Evan_The_Dude
08-02-2006, 12:01 PM
Harrington looks different than I remember him:

http://www.nba.com/news/313387.html

Damn athletes. They get all this money and don't know what to do with it. Now they've started getting plastic surgery.

317Kim
08-02-2006, 12:02 PM
Harrington looks different than I remember him:

http://www.nba.com/news/313387.html (http://www.nba.com/news/313387.html)

:laugh: It must be all the stress from waiting.

Kegboy
08-02-2006, 01:29 PM
:laugh: It must be all the stress from waiting.

As long as he doesn't pull a last year Corey Simon. Bowser's bad enough, I don't want to see Al rolling down the court.

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 01:32 PM
"Harrington took steps to sever ties with his New York-based agent Andy Miller on Tuesday

Oh my, looks like he went to far. :melodrama:

Not even JO is going to recognize him.
Beforehttp://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/al_harrington.jpgAfter http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/lorinza_harrington.jpg

blanket
08-02-2006, 01:43 PM
Nuggets Looking To Get Into 2nd Round Of Harrington Derby
http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_4123143

Atlanta Hawks forward Al Harrington is expected to fire his agent Andy Miller, according to a source. Harrington had been expected to be involved in a sign-and-trade deal with Indiana. Once he hires a new agent, likely to be Arn Tellem, the bidding on Harrington is expected to start over. The Nuggets are expected to be among the teams interested if that happens. They would likely need to be involved in a sign-and-trade to make it work from a financial standpoint.

rexnom
08-02-2006, 01:46 PM
Nuggets Looking To Get Into 2nd Round Of Harrington Derby
http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_4123143

Atlanta Hawks forward Al Harrington is expected to fire his agent Andy Miller, according to a source. Harrington had been expected to be involved in a sign-and-trade deal with Indiana. Once he hires a new agent, likely to be Arn Tellem, the bidding on Harrington is expected to start over. The Nuggets are expected to be among the teams interested if that happens. They would likely need to be involved in a sign-and-trade to make it work from a financial standpoint.
Oh boy...now we either overpay or don't get him.

FrenchConnection
08-02-2006, 01:48 PM
THE HAWKS REFUSE TO TAKE ON PAYROLL!!!! WE ARE THE ONLY DESTINATION!!!!

rexnom
08-02-2006, 01:53 PM
THE HAWKS REFUSE TO TAKE ON PAYROLL!!!! WE ARE THE ONLY DESTINATION!!!!
What if they offered an expiring contract? Ruben Patterson makes almost 8 million. Add filler and a pick to that and everyone is happy. Denver, Atlanta, and Al.

The Hawks would then get greedy and probably request something like Harrison or an unconditional first as well...so, like I said, we either overpay or don't get him.

At this point I'm leaning towards not getting him.

blanket
08-02-2006, 02:05 PM
What if they offered an expiring contract? Ruben Patterson makes almost 8 million. Add filler and a pick to that and everyone is happy. Denver, Atlanta, and Al.

Possibly, but that assumes:

1) Atlanta is willing to take on any contracts -- even if they expire next summer -- in exchange for Al.

2) Harrington is willing to be traded to Denver (or any team other than the ones he singled out in the past, Indy and GS).


Now, if assumption #1 comes to pass, then things gets complicated for us.

And if assumption #2 comes true, too, then we're probably hosed, as there are a lot of teams (e.g., Knicks) that would like to have Al and have sizeable expiring contracts and other assets that might interest Atlanta if they're willing to do a deal that involves anything other than picks, cash and no additional salary.

If only #1 comes to be, then we're back where we were a month ago with us and the Warriors trying to put together a package of players/picks/cash to entice Atlanta.

I expect those assumptions to be either supported or squashed later this week by Al's agent and/or Sekou Smith.

Naptown_Seth
08-02-2006, 02:37 PM
Yeah, let's not treat this as a stright trade deal. Al has power in the matter, ATL has almost none, Indy can offer something that makes both sides happy which is more than the MLE without ATL taking contracts.


IMO Belkin might be pressuring BK to not make this deal because if he gets control he is going to want players coming back, not just low payroll. Belkin was the one that was fighting to get the longer contract window, the other owners were the ones that were happy when it was dropped to only 1 year. Belkin obviously got it bumped back up to 4.

Why would he do that? Because he wants players. He doesn't run the team now, but he could imply to BK that if the appeals don't overthrow his right to buy out the other owners he will fire BK if he makes the wrong deals now. He is certainly not without influence over the situation, and is the smarter owner too.



He can - I doubt he will. He'll want to maintain a good working relationaship with BK on the off chance that he actually lands another NBA job.

People tend not to burn bridges over a mid-level player making mid-level money. And Tellum will probably realize better than Harrington that this is what Al is.
Um, what about BILLY KNIGHT maintaining a relationship, that was my point. Arn has a situation ready to go and BK holds it up, not Arn. Arn says to him, there are 29 other GMs and when Belkin takes over you might be fired anyway. You will need my clients at some point, but I can always go around you.

This is only if BK is being difficult. Arn could say the same thing to Indy if they are the ones being tough.


However, the evidence against Atlanta is stronger. No offer to Al. Refusal to take on contracts which 100% limits Al to the TE of Indy OR LESS. You think Arn or Al are happy with THAT? Hardly.

Maybe they say to Indy "you could have had him for a good price but would't come off a pick?", but he could just as easily turn that on BK and say "my client is an FA that you publically said you didn't want, and you won't take your FREE $3m and removal of Edwards (or whatever the offer from Indy was)".

But based on the first 2 points (no offer, limit on his signing value) I'd say that Atlanta playing hardball over what they get looks a lot worse. Behind the scenes who knows, certainly if DW said "you'll get a box of donuts and a smack in the face and that's it" then the Pacers are at fault.

I just don't think that's the reality. BK doesn't want to make a deal worse than what he gave to PHX to sign JJ even though PHX wasn't going to match it.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 02:48 PM
Yeah, let's not treat this as a stright trade deal. Al has power in the matter, ATL has almost none, Indy can offer something that makes both sides happy which is more than the MLE without ATL taking contracts.


Huh? Looks like the opposite to me.

Al wants more money - the only way he can get that is through a S&T - which means Atlanta has to sign him and they'll only do that if they want whatever Indy's offering.

Indy wants Al. The only way that can happen is through an S&T - which means Atlanta has to sign him and they'll only do that if they want whatever Indy's offering.

Atlanta doesn't want Al and doesn't want to add any more players. If they just let Al walk without signing him they get that. Now they'd take a draft pick if someone wants to give them one and they'd take the TE for felxibility even though they don't really need it - but basically they're sitting back, fielding offers and have nothing to lose either way.

Atlanta has ALL the power in this one.

Bball
08-02-2006, 02:53 PM
I agree with DK...

Also... What can happen in a multi-team trade? Are there any scenarios that Al's new agent could shake loose that would please Atlanta and Al? I think it's clear Atlanta balked at jumping on Indiana's best shot so the Pacers are going to need to win by default (after playing Atl's waiting game some more) or get back in the bidding game.

-Bball

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 02:54 PM
Um, what about BILLY KNIGHT maintaining a relationship, that was my point. Arn has a situation ready to go and BK holds it up, not Arn. Arn says to him, there are 29 other GMs and when Belkin takes over you might be fired anyway. You will need my clients at some point, but I can always go around you.

This is only if BK is being difficult. Arn could say the same thing to Indy if they are the ones being tough.


Completely irrelevant. No GM really needs agents but agents need GM's. And if Tellum screws one GM, be sure that word will get around - very quickly - to every other GM in the league.

You think if BK doesn't give Harrington - who's small potatos when it comes to Tellum's earning power - an S&T, that Arn will turn down a max contract offer next summer if Knight's willing to pay that to one of his players?

There's a real world out there - and that real world is that agents don't want to **** off GM's because that's where their money comes from. GM's aren't going to either but no agent's gonna hold it against a GM just because he wants to make a better deal for his team.

able
08-02-2006, 03:11 PM
Completely irrelevant. No GM really needs agents but agents need GM's. And if Tellum screws one GM, be sure that word will get around - very quickly - to every other GM in the league.

You think if BK doesn't give Harrington - who's small potatos when it comes to Tellum's earning power - an S&T, that Arn will turn down a max contract offer next summer if Knight's willing to pay that to one of his players?

There's a real world out there - and that real world is that agents don't want to **** off GM's because that's where their money comes from. GM's aren't going to either but no agent's gonna hold it against a GM just because he wants to make a better deal for his team.

See bolded; No I don't but if there are more offers on the table, don't you think he will tell his client "saw how they screwed over Harrington when he was FA?"

Arn holds 8 or 0 now of the top 100 player contracts making him eitehr 2nd or shared 1st in agents ranking, he MADE SFX and will be the numero 1 before long.
But the numbers of midlevel and rookies he has makes what really is his power; telling a client to not sign the extension for instance, Having that many high valued clients makes that GM's respect him to, they need him just as hard.

One thing is sure, his old agent did not have the cloud Arn has and definitely must have upset someone along the line.

vapacersfan
08-02-2006, 04:29 PM
Completely irrelevant. No GM really needs agents but agents need GM's. And if Tellum screws one GM, be sure that word will get around - very quickly - to every other GM in the league.

You think if BK doesn't give Harrington - who's small potatos when it comes to Tellum's earning power - an S&T, that Arn will turn down a max contract offer next summer if Knight's willing to pay that to one of his players?

There's a real world out there - and that real world is that agents don't want to **** off GM's because that's where their money comes from. GM's aren't going to either but no agent's gonna hold it against a GM just because he wants to make a better deal for his team.

Exactly.

Like you said, Al is pennies to Arn. He isnt going to **** off BK, and in turn possibly many more GM's in the NBA over Al.

On a sidenote, we just had a employee today that couldnt understand why he cant find a new job, even though he is perfectly qualified and has a government clearence. You want to know why he couldnt? Because he burned a lot of bridges in his old job. One CEO/GM was best friends with the other company he was trying to go to, and in a matter of weeks his repuation has turned sour. Arn is not stupid enough to let that happen to him.

shockedandchagrined
08-02-2006, 05:10 PM
Huh? Looks like the opposite to me.

Atlanta doesn't want Al and doesn't want to add any more players. If they just let Al walk without signing him they get that. Now they'd take a draft pick if someone wants to give them one and they'd take the TE for felxibility even though they don't really need it - but basically they're sitting back, fielding offers and have nothing to lose either way.

Atlanta has ALL the power in this one.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the trade exception, but Atlanta would not be taking the trade exception from Indiana would they? I thought that the trade exception would be used to satisfy the non-simultaneous trade that was orginally started with NO? In other words, Atlanta doesn't receive the trade exception, they just don't have to take salary back because Indiana doesn't actually have to send any, which wouldn't normally be the case as Indiana is over the cap. This is the advantage that Indiana has over every other team in the league that is over the cap, isn't it?

I'm I missing something?

blanket
08-02-2006, 05:19 PM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the trade exception, but Atlanta would not be taking the trade exception from Indiana would they? I thought that the trade exception would be used to satisfy the non-simultaneous trade that was orginally started with NO? In other words, Atlanta doesn't receive the trade exception, they just don't have to take salary back because Indiana doesn't actually have to send any, which wouldn't normally be the case as Indiana is over the cap. This is the advantage that Indiana has over every other team in the league that is over the cap, isn't it?

I'm I missing something?

No, you've got it right.

shockedandchagrined
08-02-2006, 05:25 PM
No, you've got it right.

If that's the case then Atlanta doesn't have any real power over this situation, except possibly the leverage of time and Indiana's impatience. Atlanta doesn't want salary, which means every team that is over the cap is basically out. Harrington can sign for the MLE (though it's presummable that he doesn't want to do this) and Atlanta cannot stop him. The only thing Atlanta can do is sign and trade him for some picks/cash. How many teams in the league are actually in a position to do this?

Roaming Gnome
08-02-2006, 05:39 PM
Speaking of agents...Is David Faulk still around? I have not heard anything from him since he tried to lead his prime clients to decertify the NBA Players' union a few years back. David Faulk was the #1 power broker amoung NBA agents with players like Jordan, Ewing, and Malone (at the end of his carrer). Did his attempted power play ruin him?

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 06:10 PM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the trade exception, but Atlanta would not be taking the trade exception from Indiana would they? I thought that the trade exception would be used to satisfy the non-simultaneous trade that was orginally started with NO? In other words, Atlanta doesn't receive the trade exception, they just don't have to take salary back because Indiana doesn't actually have to send any, which wouldn't normally be the case as Indiana is over the cap. This is the advantage that Indiana has over every other team in the league that is over the cap, isn't it?

I'm I missing something?

Yes, you are.

A trade exception occurs when a team trades a player making lots of money for one making less money. That's how the Pacers got theirs - by doing an S&T with Peja making whatever - 12 million? - for whassisname playing in Europe. They received a trade exception.

In this theorized case Atlanta would be trading Al - presumably - in an S&T where Al makes 7.5 million and in return would receive only draft picks. Atlanta, by trading a player making more than what it receives, gets a trade exception.

It's not precisely the "same" trade exception - it's Atlanta's by trading away salary - but it's still a trade exception.

Except what I missed was that since Atl is (I think) under the cap, they don't get exceptions. Not the MLE, nothing. If they're over the cap though, they get a trade exception for the same reason that Indy got theirs.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 06:12 PM
If that's the case then Atlanta doesn't have any real power over this situation, except possibly the leverage of time and Indiana's impatience. Atlanta doesn't want salary, which means every team that is over the cap is basically out. Harrington can sign for the MLE (though it's presummable that he doesn't want to do this) and Atlanta cannot stop him. The only thing Atlanta can do is sign and trade him for some picks/cash. How many teams in the league are actually in a position to do this?

OK - explain to me how Atlanta, which doesn't want to keep Al and doesn't want to add any players, is in such a weak position.

Considering they can do absolutely nothing and they A) don't keep Al and B) don't add players, I don't see it.

The Pacers have nothing they want - except draft picks.

shockedandchagrined
08-02-2006, 07:53 PM
OK - explain to me how Atlanta, which doesn't want to keep Al and doesn't want to add any players, is in such a weak position.

Considering they can do absolutely nothing and they A) don't keep Al and B) don't add players, I don't see it.

The Pacers have nothing they want - except draft picks.

As you indicated, they are not in a weak position if they are willing to let Harrington walk and receive no compensation for him. However, if they want compensation then they are in a weak negotiating position. They don't want contracts, which elimiates the lion's share of the NBA, and the fact that it's public that they have no interest in Harrington only weakens their position further because they cannot even bluff about it.

The thing is, if Atlanta didn't care about losing Harrington outright, why wouldn't they have already taken whatever Pacer offer (cash/picks) was on the table? It seems they do want compensation, but I'm not sure how they are in any position to negotiate a better deal than what has already been offered.

shockedandchagrined
08-02-2006, 08:04 PM
Except what I missed was that since Atl is (I think) under the cap, they don't get exceptions. Not the MLE, nothing. If they're over the cap though, they get a trade exception for the same reason that Indy got theirs.

This is the point isn't it. Atlanta would do this deal not to gain a trade exception because they don't have access to exceptions given that they are under the cap. They do this deal because the can get cash/picks, while giving up a player for which they had no desire to keep.

Any way you slice it, it's better getting cash/picks rather than nothing, but I do not see how they have significant power over the negotiating process at this point, other than saying yes we'll take your cash/picks or no we won't.

CableKC
08-02-2006, 08:13 PM
What I am really curious about...after all this Harrington stuff goes away...whether he is with us or not...is what the initial hold up is.

I would really like to know whether the holdup was on the Pacers side.....as in not willing to take back or pay/give up more......or if it was on the Hawks side for asking too much...or if it was Harrington that ultimately wanted too much that neither the Hawks or the Pacers wanted to give up.

If this holdup boils down the Pacers not willing to pay 3mil and/or take back Edwards....then I am not going to be happy. At this point...the only way that I can see us getting Harrington is if we end up overpaying him...or at the very least....pay more then we were initially giving up.

Speed
08-02-2006, 09:22 PM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060802/SPORTS04/608020498/1088

Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh said Harrington's decision won't affect their pursuit.
"No, not at all," Walsh said Tuesday evening.



The National Basketball Players Association will handle the deal for Harrington if one is agreed upon in that 15-day period.


I guess Tellum has probably already talked to all involved, casually, not necessarily on Al's behalf, wink, wink. I could be wrong but you don't get to be a super agent w/o covering all your tracks. Doesn't mean he comes here for sure, but it would take something drastic to happen for everything to all of sudden change, like many have said already.

indygeezer
08-02-2006, 09:46 PM
OK the ol' grey matter is turning to soup. IF they cannot take on exceptions, why all the talk about the $7.5 mil salary? Why the talk of Edwards for the $2mil exception as an inducement?

If not with the TPE, how are were we able to give Atl ANYTHING that any other team cannot offer????

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 09:59 PM
OK the ol' grey matter is turning to soup. IF they cannot take on exceptions, why all the talk about the $7.5 mil salary? Why the talk of Edwards for the $2mil exception as an inducement?

If not with the TPE, how are were we able to give Atl ANYTHING that any other team cannot offer????

Ok, yes they are under the cap so no exceptions apply to them, they cannot take advantage of it.

The 7.5 exception allows ATL to sign Harrington for up to 7.6 million and then only because of the TE they do not have to take salary back.

So they can benefit from Indy's Trade Exception in that way,

Same with Edwards.




The National Basketball Players Association will handle the deal for Harrington if one is agreed upon in that 15-day period.

Probably not likely but at least good to know, a trade can be done if something is agreed upon.

Hicks
08-02-2006, 10:13 PM
The more I've read people talking about it, and the more I've thought it over, I'm leaning towards NEITHER The Pacers or Billy Knight holding this up. I think it's the Atlanta owners sticking their noses in it. Of course, I don't know why Al swapping agents would help the situation either.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2006, 10:24 PM
This is the point isn't it. Atlanta would do this deal not to gain a trade exception because they don't have access to exceptions given that they are under the cap. They do this deal because the can get cash/picks, while giving up a player for which they had no desire to keep.

Any way you slice it, it's better getting cash/picks rather than nothing, but I do not see how they have significant power over the negotiating process at this point, other than saying yes we'll take your cash/picks or no we won't.

They can do a lot. For one thing, they can tell Denver - and anyone else who might be interested that no, the Pacers aren't a lock to get Al, just keep the offers coming and they'll decide by, say, October 1 when TC's start.

They have absolutely nothing to lose. Getting cash or picks for Al would be simply a bonus. And it's always possible that something may fall into their lap. Maybe Andre Miller gets crosswise of George Karl and they decide to go that way with an S&T. PG's the only position they at least don't have a good prospect for.

beast23
08-02-2006, 11:10 PM
The more I've read people talking about it, and the more I've thought it over, I'm leaning towards NEITHER The Pacers or Billy Knight holding this up. I think it's the Atlanta owners sticking their noses in it. Of course, I don't know why Al swapping agents would help the situation either.

The last thing that I heard was that Atlanta wanted $3M, our 1st round pick (for 2007 presumably) and for us to take Edwards in a 2nd deal.

Did we ever concede to giving up our draft pick?

All we heard was that Al was "coming home" and a rumor of what Atlanta was supposedly getting through someone on the Hawks forum.

But did was anything about the alleged offer ever linked to the Pacers?

If not, I think it is possible that the Pacers were holding up the deal. Maybe we didn't want to give up our 1st round pick without getting something back from Hawks. Like maybe their 2nd round pick in exchange for our first.

I think it's impossible to tell who's screwing with the deal. It could be BK or the Pacers, or even the in-fighting between the Hawks "partners". Or even Al, for that matter.

One thing is for certain. If it was Al's former rep, then the deal would have been done yesterday or today.


are holding it up.
Atlanta wanted a draft pick. Did we concede that?

Naptown_Seth
08-02-2006, 11:39 PM
Huh? Looks like the opposite to me.

Al wants more money - the only way he can get that is through a S&T - which means Atlanta has to sign him and they'll only do that if they want whatever Indy's offering.

Indy wants Al. The only way that can happen is through an S&T - which means Atlanta has to sign him and they'll only do that if they want whatever Indy's offering.

Atlanta doesn't want Al and doesn't want to add any more players. If they just let Al walk without signing him they get that. Now they'd take a draft pick if someone wants to give them one and they'd take the TE for felxibility even though they don't really need it - but basically they're sitting back, fielding offers and have nothing to lose either way.

Atlanta has ALL the power in this one.
More money. Yes in the immediate future Atlanta gets him more money via the SnT.

To Indy? "The only way that can happen is through an S&T"
Nope, the MLE is still out there. Al could MLE to Indy just as well as anyplace else.

Also, they don't get a TE out of this if signing AL doesn't put them over the cap. There is no such thing as trading a TE. It is not an item to be moved, it is space you have that allows you to take on a contract. Once you use that space it is gone.



Al could 3 year MLE. Then go FA and sign for a lot more than 7.6 (say 9.5 base) and end up making more money than if he took the 7.6m deal now.

OKC just showed how much a non-necessary SnT gets on the market, 250K. Now I think that is a fishy deal, but still let's call it $1m instead. It's still way less than they are asking.

Atlanta wants Edwards off their books, that's not going to happen without a SnT either. Atlanta DESPERATELY wants picks after losing 2 first rounders for Johnson and that's not going to happen without the SnT either.

Don't think that ATL doesn't want it, they do. The Pacers deal is the ONLY deal that gets them what they really want - money, picks, removing Edwards.

Do you know what BK will look like if he loses AL for the MLE someplace now and gets NOTHING after having cash, Edwards and/or a pick on the table? Sure Al could just go, but BK has already been offered better than that.

If BK lets AL go as an FA after having something on the table for him then it helps Belkin's cause becuase it supports his view that the Atlanta Spirit and BK are mismanaging the team. It adds on to the already questionable JJ deal (giving up picks and Diaw for an FA that PHX didn't want to sign).

So BK has 3 options -
-Let Al go FA now. Looks like an idiot.
-Trade for players. Takes on contracts that somebody on that side (maybe not Belkin, could be the Spirit guys) doesn't want.
-Deal with Indy. Comes closest to getting what they want.

Al can veto all deals, Al can sign as an FA without discussing with ATL, and only Indy can take on a contract without ATL taking players. The MLE is not as good a situation for Al, but it hurts him less than it does ATL because he still gets close to what he wants in the long run while ATL ends up still stuck without a first round pick for a couple of years and with the Edwards contract and with a PO'd Arn Tellum repping clients on their team and others that might want to come to their team.

Also BK gets fired because this helps solidify Belkin's case in the appeals court (poor management/ownership), the ruling letting him buy out the Spirit stands, and he steps in with the axe swinging because BK is the Spirit's guy, not his. This all started because BK F'd up the Joe Johnson deal.

PacerFan31
08-03-2006, 12:05 AM
The way this thing worked, Tellem probably went to Al and said, I can get you in a Pacers uniform 10xs faster than Miller.

Al Probably took it and ran.

PR07
08-03-2006, 12:39 AM
I wish I had all the details, but I don't. We were told they had to
work out some minor details and that's it. The agents have not
disclosed what's holding up the trade. The Pacers and Hawks are
confident they will complete this sign and trade, which may involve a
future, first round pick.
Al Harrington is ready to finalize this deal. In fact, we're hearing
that he fired his agent, and will hire a new agent to complete the deal.
If that happens, don't expect an official announcement for at least two
weeks.

Henry

From the guy who broke the story on WTHR of the 99% done thing, I wrote this e-mail a while back and he finally replied today.

PacerFan31
08-03-2006, 01:05 AM
From the guy who broke the story on WTHR of the 99% done thing, I wrote this e-mail a while back and he finally replied today.


Basically Henry wrote nothing new, just some things that some of us have already speculated.

ilive4sports
08-03-2006, 01:14 AM
Does anyone have a source where it says ATL doesnt want to take contracts back? Im talking with a Hawks fan and he just doesnt believe me on that.

I think that what Henry said (and what some speculated) is right on. Al wants to get this done. He is sick of waiting. He knows the deal and he knows that BK is just being difficult. Do i blame BK for wanting more? No, its his job, but when there is only one offer on the table, what choice do you have? Al has the control in this situation more than Atlanta imo.

Naptown_Seth
08-03-2006, 01:48 AM
Basically Henry wrote nothing new, just some things that some of us have already speculated.
But he did get a big scoop. I mean he reported this deal MONTHS before it will be done. ;) :D


JOMVP2006
here's your source (http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22914)

rexnom
08-03-2006, 02:22 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We'll either overpay for Al (most likely) or not get him (not as likely).

CableKC
08-03-2006, 02:39 AM
Does anyone have a source where it says ATL doesnt want to take contracts back? Im talking with a Hawks fan and he just doesnt believe me on that.

I think that what Henry said (and what some speculated) is right on. Al wants to get this done. He is sick of waiting. He knows the deal and he knows that BK is just being difficult. Do i blame BK for wanting more? No, its his job, but when there is only one offer on the table, what choice do you have? Al has the control in this situation more than Atlanta imo.

I was doing the same on RealGM.....and the clarification that the Hawks fan was giving me was that they speculate that the Hawks would be willing to take back contracts as long as it met their needs. Barring the legal ruling that the Hawks cannot take back any players with longer then a 4+ year contract without the entire ownership approval ( which to me means that they can take a 5+ year player....it would just be harder ).....that is why they didn't want Murphy in any deal....simply cuz it didn't meet their needs. But to me...that simply means that there are 2 choices that the Hawks would prefer to take.....either a S&T deal that would involve players/contracts that meet their needs ( which IMHO....is not out there...cuz if it was....the Hawks would have taken it already )....or the type of $$$, Draft picks and "take Edwards" deal that we have ( the type of deal that I suspect that the Hawks would prefer...cuz if it wasn't.....the other S&T option with players would have been already taken ).

Also...to add to many of the articles and posts regarding the inclusion of Tellum......as suggested before...new teams could be brought into the fold here......but its not like interest in Harrington ( and therefore any previous offers put to the Hawks ) didn't exist before...and now...because of Tellum there is interest from other teams that magically appears ( that didn't exist before ). I'm guessing that Tellum will ultimately force the issue with the Pacers and have them cough up whatever the Hawks want....or he will pull up the offers that the Hawks received....see which one he likes that gets his player the most money...and push the Hawks to accept that one. Either way...some GM is probably going to end up accepting something that he probably won't be entirely happy with.

DisplacedKnick
08-03-2006, 06:50 AM
More money. Yes in the immediate future Atlanta gets him more money via the SnT.

To Indy? "The only way that can happen is through an S&T"
Nope, the MLE is still out there. Al could MLE to Indy just as well as anyplace else.

Also, they don't get a TE out of this if signing AL doesn't put them over the cap. There is no such thing as trading a TE. It is not an item to be moved, it is space you have that allows you to take on a contract. Once you use that space it is gone.



Al could 3 year MLE. Then go FA and sign for a lot more than 7.6 (say 9.5 base) and end up making more money than if he took the 7.6m deal now.

OKC just showed how much a non-necessary SnT gets on the market, 250K. Now I think that is a fishy deal, but still let's call it $1m instead. It's still way less than they are asking.

Atlanta wants Edwards off their books, that's not going to happen without a SnT either. Atlanta DESPERATELY wants picks after losing 2 first rounders for Johnson and that's not going to happen without the SnT either.

Don't think that ATL doesn't want it, they do. The Pacers deal is the ONLY deal that gets them what they really want - money, picks, removing Edwards.

Do you know what BK will look like if he loses AL for the MLE someplace now and gets NOTHING after having cash, Edwards and/or a pick on the table? Sure Al could just go, but BK has already been offered better than that.

If BK lets AL go as an FA after having something on the table for him then it helps Belkin's cause becuase it supports his view that the Atlanta Spirit and BK are mismanaging the team. It adds on to the already questionable JJ deal (giving up picks and Diaw for an FA that PHX didn't want to sign).

So BK has 3 options -
-Let Al go FA now. Looks like an idiot.
-Trade for players. Takes on contracts that somebody on that side (maybe not Belkin, could be the Spirit guys) doesn't want.
-Deal with Indy. Comes closest to getting what they want.

Al can veto all deals, Al can sign as an FA without discussing with ATL, and only Indy can take on a contract without ATL taking players. The MLE is not as good a situation for Al, but it hurts him less than it does ATL because he still gets close to what he wants in the long run while ATL ends up still stuck without a first round pick for a couple of years and with the Edwards contract and with a PO'd Arn Tellum repping clients on their team and others that might want to come to their team.

Also BK gets fired because this helps solidify Belkin's case in the appeals court (poor management/ownership), the ruling letting him buy out the Spirit stands, and he steps in with the axe swinging because BK is the Spirit's guy, not his. This all started because BK F'd up the Joe Johnson deal.

Nice story you've come up with there - let me know how that goes for you.

I'm certainly not going to get into a discussion of a long piece of creative fiction. Nice of you to write some stuff I've already pointed out as if it's some revelation as well.

DisplacedKnick
08-03-2006, 07:00 AM
Does anyone have a source where it says ATL doesnt want to take contracts back? Im talking with a Hawks fan and he just doesnt believe me on that.


I don't know if they don't want to take any contracts back in any situation - just that according to the media they don't want to for Al.

From: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=2532200

If the Hawks were to secure everything they seek in this deal, they'd essentially be getting a first-rounder and $4 million for Harrington once Edwards' salary is removed from their payroll. Sources say that Atlanta's teetering ownership group, in the midst of a legal battle with former partner Steve Belkin to keep control of the club, prefers a cash infusion to the idea of taking back a player or two from Indiana's roster (such as center Jeff Foster) or a more expensive veteran.

Golden State, for example, offered power forward Troy Murphy to the Hawks in a sign-and-trade that would have netted Harrington something closer to the six-year, $66 million contract he was seeking. But Murphy, who averaged a double-double in his past three full seasons, has nearly $51 million left on his contract over the next five years.

I happen to think that if something fell into their lap where they could get a young, talented PG they should jump at it - it's the only position they don't have a young stud for - unless they think JJ can fill that, which I doubt.

As for Al having ANY power in this - he's already short 10 million because he doesn't. If the Pacers and Hawks can't work something out, he'll be short a lot more.

indygeezer
08-03-2006, 07:11 AM
I don't know if they don't want to take any contracts back in any situation - just that according to the media they don't want to for Al.

From: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=2532200

If the Hawks were to secure everything they seek in this deal, they'd essentially be getting a first-rounder and $4 million for Harrington once Edwards' salary is removed from their payroll. Sources say that Atlanta's teetering ownership group, in the midst of a legal battle with former partner Steve Belkin to keep control of the club, prefers a cash infusion to the idea of taking back a player or two from Indiana's roster (such as center Jeff Foster) or a more expensive veteran.

Golden State, for example, offered power forward Troy Murphy to the Hawks in a sign-and-trade that would have netted Harrington something closer to the six-year, $66 million contract he was seeking. But Murphy, who averaged a double-double in his past three full seasons, has nearly $51 million left on his contract over the next five years.

I happen to think that if something fell into their lap where they could get a young, talented PG they should jump at it - it's the only position they don't have a young stud for - unless they think JJ can fill that, which I doubt.

As for Al having ANY power in this - he's already short 10 million because he doesn't. If the Pacers and Hawks can't work something out, he'll be short a lot more.


I still don't get it DK, if Atl cannot rec've a TPE, why does (Todays) Star say that is what we are offering? Or, can they receive it but not use it in other trades? IOW, it dies with the Hawks.

DisplacedKnick
08-03-2006, 07:23 AM
I still don't get it DK, if Atl cannot rec've a TPE, why does (Todays) Star say that is what we are offering? Or, can they receive it but not use it in other trades? IOW, it dies with the Hawks.

The TE is just a tool the Pacers have which allows them to add salary through a trade even though they're over the cap - since they received back less salary in a trade from NO for Peja. Call it a scale-balancing if you want. Credit they receive for reducing salary. By adding Harrington's salary, the credit is used up and nullified.

Atlanta would get a TE for the same reason IF they were at or over the cap, which they aren't. Teams that aren't over the cap don't get any exceptions because they're irrelevant - if you're under the cap you don't need a salary cap exception.

Unclebuck
08-12-2006, 04:42 PM
I'm bumping this because it has the info about when a deal can be made