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Frank Slade
08-01-2006, 04:44 PM
Sekou speculates a possible seismic shift in the upcoming days, as apparently we are at a impasse. Thinks Harrrington may pursue another course of action ? I guess that could be signing for the MLE ?


By Sekou Smith

July 31, 2006 10:24 PM | Link to this

Get Better,

I stated a while back here that I was in favor of getting players in return for Al. Some people donít think Jeff Foster is an upgrade over what the Hawks already have. I disagree. I also know that David Harrison isnít a part of any proposed deal, so heís not even a consideration. But Foster would have been nice.

But Iím not sure what becomes of this deal from here on out. I can see some seismic shift in this entire drama coming in the next few days. I mean, how long can anyone expect Al Harrington to deal with the waiting before he gets fed up and decides to pursue another course of action?

What that course of action might be remains a mystery even to me. But I can see things changing now that we are a solid month into this process without any resolution. And who could blame him for growing weary of this prolonged process?


Once again, Iíve never called names on this board and I wonít start now. So all this Billy Knight bashing or specific owner bashing is pointless. Whatís done is done people, good and bad, right and wrong. Sticking it on the grill day after day doesnít change anything. I realize itís that retro-analysis is the only rational way for us all to discuss this stuff and thatís why Iím here now. But seriously, for every ďwrongĒ move someone can claim Billy Knight has made someone can counter that with what they claim to be a ďrightĒ move. And trying to convince each other to jump to the other side is really a fruitless endeavor at this stage of the game.

Like I wrote earlier, mistakes have been made all around. And they proof will be results we can actually see on the floor and in the win-loss column. If the Hawks climb into playoff contention this season (against all odds some might say), then roasting someone for moves made and not made becomes a moot point. And if they struggle to another bottom five finish, heads will roll and no one has to worry about pointing any fingers.

In this case, the judge and jury is an 82-game season that will highlight the hits and misses of any and all the people who have decision-making power where this team is concerned. Thatís the one thing about sports that never changes

Atlanta Journal Blog (http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2006/07/30/deal_delay_drag.html)

Destined4Greatness
08-01-2006, 04:47 PM
Are there any teams still under the cap that would sign him?

blanket
08-01-2006, 04:47 PM
Reads like baseless speculation on his part. :unimpress

aero
08-01-2006, 04:58 PM
Are there any teams still under the cap that would sign him?

about the only other team that was interested from what ive read was Golden State but they pulled out of the race when they seen how much Indiana wanted him i guess you could say. The thing that looks like is holding this up is Atlanta is wanting us to give up to much & TPTB aint havin' it :blush:

Frank Slade
08-01-2006, 05:03 PM
Reads like baseless speculation on his part. :unimpress

Well I see the point you are trying to make , but keep in mind it is a Blog not an article.

Also, I am assuming that what he has been reporting is true, as far as he has been frequently communicating with Billy King in regards to the status of Harrington. With that in mind, any type of speculation from Sekou is more than just baseless, IMO.

ESutt7
08-01-2006, 05:06 PM
Um...what else could Al do? Sign the MLE with us?

AnotherBirdCreation
08-01-2006, 05:37 PM
Um...what else could Al do? Sign the MLE with us?

Possibly another team could sign him and send him to us for something. Not sure if that is legal, though.

BigDawg44
08-01-2006, 05:49 PM
i saw on espn that Al Harrington has switched agents. he is no longer with Miller, but now has the same agent as Joe Johnson and Sheldon Williams. The reason is because this agent has a better relationship with billy knight and hoping this new agent will get things done as a result. btw, i saw this on ESPN motion....so i dont have a link

LG33
08-01-2006, 05:56 PM
Yeah, he wants a fast deal so he signs with Joe Johnson's new agent? This guy is a moron. Having said that, I can't wait till he's a Pacer!!

grace
08-01-2006, 07:28 PM
Yeah, he wants a fast deal so he signs with Joe Johnson's new agent? This guy is a moron. Having said that, I can't wait till he's a Pacer!!

Ah, I don't know if he still is but Tellem used to be the agent for Tracy McGrady, Reggie Miller, Jason Giambi and Hideki Matsui. I also thought he was JO's agent, but I could be wrong.

able
08-01-2006, 07:44 PM
Ah, I don't know if he still is but Tellem used to be the agent for Tracy McGrady, Reggie Miller, Jason Giambi and Hideki Matsui. I also thought he was JO's agent, but I could be wrong.
he is and Kobe's & KG's too if I'm not mistaken

NorCal_Pacerfan
08-01-2006, 07:49 PM
Being an Agent sounds like it's a good gig - until you're fired. But still, that's some nice kickbacks they get.

vapacersfan
08-01-2006, 09:28 PM
Being an Agent sounds like it's a good gig - until you're fired. But still, that's some nice kickbacks they get.

It can be a great gig, but you just highlighted the biggest point of being an agent. You are not guaranteed job security. Your client(s) (should you be luck enough to actually have one, remember you are paid totally off of commission so if you donít have clients you donít have a pay check) can fire you for any reason, and the reason can be something as stupid as they donít like the fact that you donít take their 3AM phone calls whining about their girlfriends or which new car they should buy.

It sounds like a great job, and if you have a lot of patience and you are willing to deal with spoiler grown men who want to be treated like Gods, then youíll be fine. I actually have some really good reads on the field, if interested to drop me a PM.

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 01:52 PM
By Sekou Smith

August 2, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this


Good catch Jim. I couldn’t believe everyone looked over that graph and didn’t ask me what might be going on.

For the record, the Indiana deal is still viable, maybe just in a different form.

And as far as what the change of agent does, let’s just say that Arn Tellem has a very interesting client roster that is very familiar to the Hawks (Joe Johnson, Shelden Williams). He also had six first round picks in the June draft and a reputation as an agent who gets deals done and whose clients smile all the way to the bank.

I can’t tell anyone that he does anything that Andy Miller does not. But I imagine his addition will bring about a much swifted pace to these negotiations.

By Sekou Smith

August 2, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this


Much swifter was the phrase I was looking for. Pardon me for the slip. I just came from outside and I think the heat jacked my typing skills momentarily.

AJC (http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2006/07/30/deal_delay_drag.html#comment-588481)

blanket
08-02-2006, 02:15 PM
I canít tell anyone that he does anything that Andy Miller does not. But I imagine his addition will bring about a much swifted pace to these negotiations.

Except for the fact that once Al signs with a new agent nothing can be finalized for 15 days... :unimpress

Naptown_Seth
08-02-2006, 02:30 PM
Except for the fact that once Al signs with a new agent nothing can be finalized for 15 days... :unimpress
Like it was going to get done before then anyway.

:signit:

Again, that clip of BK hard at work... :D

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/Billy_Knight.jpg

Bball
08-02-2006, 02:33 PM
Maybe Al should sign with Arliss Michaels?

-Bball

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 02:39 PM
Maybe Al should sign with Arliss Michaels?

-Bball

Bob Sugar ?

Bball
08-02-2006, 02:48 PM
Just because a deal can't be 'finalized' for 15 days what is to keep it from getting 'done' except for the 'finality' of the ink on the paper?

IOW... does the agent have to WAIT 15 days or can he go to work on this right away and maybe find paydirt on a deal for Al (not necessarily with the Pacers) that they can just wait to get signatures on?

-Bball

Frank Slade
08-02-2006, 03:22 PM
Just because a deal can't be 'finalized' for 15 days what is to keep it from getting 'done' except for the 'finality' of the ink on the paper?

IOW... does the agent have to WAIT 15 days or can he go to work on this right away and maybe find paydirt on a deal for Al (not necessarily with the Pacers) that they can just wait to get signatures on?

-Bball


What Impact Will Agent Switch Have On Pacers?

Wednesday, Aug. 2, 2006

QUESTION
OF THE DAY
Conrad Brunner

Q. Now that Al Harrington has fired his agent, what will happen? Is a sign-and-trade with the Pacers still on the agenda? Even if he reconsiders the offer of other teams, is Indiana still his priority? To sum it up, what are the Pacersí chances to land him regarding the recent events? (From Jean-Benjamin in Paris, France)

A. At the very least, it appears Harrington's reported decision to change agents will delay the process. According to newspaper reports in Atlanta and Indianapolis, Harrington plans to fire agent Andy Miller in order to hire Arn Tellem. Assuming that is accurate,

Harrington must wait 15 days after officially firing Miller before he can be represented by his new agent.

That would mean a delay of more than two weeks before the sign-and-trade deal can be completed because there would be no one to represent Harrington in the negotiations for the contract that must be agreed to before the process can move forward.

At worst, it could mean Harrington has grown frustrated with not only his agent but both the Hawks and Pacers and may be willing to take a mulligan on his free agency and, in essence, start over. If that proves to be the case, several teams are likely to re-enter the picture, including the Warriors, who had shared front-runner status with the Pacers before it became assumed Harrington's intent was to engineer a return to Indiana. This has all happened very recently and suddenly and will thus require some sorting out before the picture comes into focus.

Not really a whole lot of info here, or I would have posted this earlier, but according to Bruno they have to wait 15 days. On the other hand, Harrington could represent himself;)

PACERS.COM (http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_060802.html)

Mac_Daddy
08-02-2006, 03:23 PM
Um...what else could Al do? Sign the MLE with us?


Good skepticism.Honestly,I don't see Al signing for the MLE. He is worth more than that and he knows it. The only way I see that happening is if he signs a 1-year deal with a promise of resigning for more $. I wouldn't do that if I were in the NBA though. I'd be the one to look for long-term security. :-)

blanket
08-02-2006, 03:31 PM
Just because a deal can't be 'finalized' for 15 days what is to keep it from getting 'done' except for the 'finality' of the ink on the paper?

IOW... does the agent have to WAIT 15 days or can he go to work on this right away and maybe find paydirt on a deal for Al (not necessarily with the Pacers) that they can just wait to get signatures on?

-Bball

According to the AJC article in another thread:


With Harrington seeking new representation, league rules stipulate that there must be 15 days between the time Harrington files the paperwork to fire Miller and retains new representation, meaning the process could stretch well into this month before it is resolved.


So if that's true, then he can't even hire another agent for 15 days. If Tellem is calling teams on Al's behlf during that time, you know he'd get in trouble with the league.

I guess all agent-involved negotiations are on hold for 15 days. Now, perhaps Indy and Atl can iron out their issues and come to Al with a deal 6yr/$57M deal that works for everyone.

Since86
08-02-2006, 03:39 PM
Good skepticism.Honestly,I don't see Al signing for the MLE. He is worth more than that and he knows it. The only way I see that happening is if he signs a 1-year deal with a promise of resigning for more $. I wouldn't do that if I were in the NBA though. I'd be the one to look for long-term security. :-)

I don't think he could do that on two levels.

1.) Agreements like that aren't allowed.
2.) Whoever signed him would have to be signifacantly under the salary cap, or he'd be in the same boat next year because the team wouldn't have his Bird rights.

Bball
08-02-2006, 07:52 PM
According to the AJC article in another thread:



So if that's true, then he can't even hire another agent for 15 days. If Tellem is calling teams on Al's behlf during that time, you know he'd get in trouble with the league.

I guess all agent-involved negotiations are on hold for 15 days. Now, perhaps Indy and Atl can iron out their issues and come to Al with a deal 6yr/$57M deal that works for everyone.


I suppose they could speak hypothetically... ;)

-BBall

CableKC
08-02-2006, 08:22 PM
I've continuously heard that Tellum has a great relationship with BK and the Hawks given his ties with several players on that roster.

Is Tellum real "buddy buddy" with BK?

I also heard from here that Tellum also has some type of relationship with DW...and obviously with JONeal.

Wouldn't it be in the best interest of all Agents to always have a strong relationship with any GMs?

I'm trying to figure out if Tellum's relationship with either DW or BK is going to play into the negotiations and whether that relationship would favor either teams.

Frank Slade
08-03-2006, 10:29 AM
Sekou seems to think the deal will not take as long as some have speculated.

By Sekou Smith

August 3, 2006 09:09 AM | Link to this (http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2006/08/02/another_turn_in.html#comment-590290)

That’s why I said everybody rest this weekend and we’ll get back after this Monday morning Billy. The deal could be completed at anytime between now and the end of that two week period. But I imagine Tellem will take a few days and survey the landscape before moving into any more serious discussions.

By Monday or Tuesday, however, I expect for this thing to heat up significantly. I just want this thing to beat the Aug. 19 deadline - it’s my unofficial deadline which stems from last summer’s Joe Johnson’s deal. But I don’t think there is any way we’re waiting two weeks for this deal to get done.

Speed
08-03-2006, 11:45 AM
He's really guessing as much as any of us on when how and what is going to happen.

AnotherBirdCreation
08-03-2006, 12:11 PM
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/41779/20060803/mullin_the_factor_becomes_atlanta/

Apparently, Mullin thinks he's a player for Al again. Chris, didn't you do enough damage to this franchise with your Game 7 defense of Toni Kukoc in the 1998 ECFs? Man, this whole thing is playing with my emotions! :mad:

rexnom
08-03-2006, 12:15 PM
*just don't overpay, Donnie...don't overpay...we don't need Al that much*

grace
08-03-2006, 12:49 PM
But I donít think there is any way weíre waiting two weeks for this deal to get done.

Except for the pesky league rule about having to wait two weeks. :irked:

Frank Slade
08-03-2006, 01:12 PM
Except for the pesky league rule about having to wait two weeks. :irked:

Apparently there is a provision to that
:sunshine:

According to NBA rules, Tellem cannot officially become Harrington's agent for two weeks after the termination letter was sent to Miller.

A trade can be made during that period, however, with the National Basketball Players Association acting on Harrington's behalf. Tellem still can negotiate the trade and receive a fee for his work.

rexnom
08-03-2006, 01:16 PM
I'm just going to come out and say it: at the price we're looking at paying for Al, I don't want him. Let's use the TE to try and get some backcourt relief.

blanket
08-03-2006, 01:29 PM
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/41779/20060803/mullin_the_factor_becomes_atlanta/

Apparently, Mullin thinks he's a player for Al again. Chris, didn't you do enough damage to this franchise with your Game 7 defense of Toni Kukoc in the 1998 ECFs? Man, this whole thing is playing with my emotions! :mad:

From the article:


And Mullin is still wondering why Atlanta bypassed his trade offer of Murphy a few weeks ago in favor of Indiana's salary-cap paperwork.


Maybe because the judge said Atlanta can't take on contracts longer than 4 years (like Murphy's remaining 5 year deal)? Or maybe because adding his bloated salary would limit their free agency options next summer? Or maybe because they've already got promising young players who can play the 4 in Josh Smith, Marvin Williams and Shelden Williams? Or maybe because Murphy is grossly overpaid for a 14/10 PF?

Take your pick, Mully.

Frank Slade
08-04-2006, 11:58 AM
Yeah I will hold off on posting this I think it may be a hoax

CableKC
08-04-2006, 12:00 PM
Sorry.......I picked up the initial blog entry...but read through and found that it may or may not be the real "Sekou Smith".

I may have jumped the gun here.....

Slick Pinkham
08-04-2006, 12:02 PM
There is debate in the thread over whether the "real" Sekou Smith posted that or someone who logged in with that username,

so don't rejoice just yet.

wait for the full article with Sekou's byline

CableKC
08-04-2006, 12:08 PM
On a side note...I was poking around the Hawksquawk.net board...and it sound like the Hawks are about to sign some "Mystery Big". Speculation ranges from Lorenzen Wright to Kelvin Cato...to the KandiMan. I'm guessing that its Wright....or if they go cheap...the KandiMan.

CableKC
08-04-2006, 12:22 PM
Interesting....this Pacer Girl poster on that AJC blog mentions hearing the very same report of the trade happening on WIBC 1070.

3 things stick out to me.....

1 ) is this truly our very own Pacer Gurl? or is someone using her good name to mess around with Pacer and Hawks fan

2 ) Has anyone been listening to WIBC 1070 to verify whether this is true?

3 ) I hate all this cr@p.......I wish that someoene would just step up and do something.

Hicks
08-04-2006, 12:56 PM
I'm guessing it's a hoax, but I'd love it if it turned out to be true.

Speed
08-04-2006, 12:56 PM
How about this. Are any of the mentioned big men that ATL are getting ready to sign represented by Tellum? Maybe that is the immediate precursor to this all going down. It sounds like that ATL signing a big man is happening very soon.

Frank Slade
08-13-2006, 07:34 PM
Praise for Johnson and Josh
By Sekou Smith | Sunday, August 13, 2006, 06:48 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
....

After yet another week of Al Harrington rumors from places near and far, no one seems to really know what other teams are itching for a chance to land the free agent forward.

The fact is, Indiana remains the most obvious suitor because of the $7.5 million trade exception they own and Harrington’s obvious connections to the franchise (one of his best friends – Jermaine O’Neal — is the Pacers’ captain, his father works for the organization and is mother lives in Indy as do scores of his friends and acquaintances from his first six years in the league spent in a Pacers uniform).

But if Harrington has learned anything from this trying summer it has to be that this is truly about BUSINESS, for both he and the Hawks. No one wants to feel like they’ve been slighted so all options are being exhausted.

A six-year, $57 million sign-and-trade deal is serious business however you look at it (and my spies tell me the Hawks have backed off of their demands for the $3 million in cash and are willing to take back a draft pick and nothing else to avoid unwanted contracts with so many young players already on the roster approaching contract years themselves).

Now it has to happen, though. The six weeks we’ve waited for this entire affair to be completed has produced a few gray hairs for us all, I’ve certainly spotted a least two new ones. And if it doesn’t happen Monday morning, those other options Harrington and his new agent, Arn Tellem, have been talking about the past two weeks become the new reality.


The Los Angeles Lakers, New Jersey Nets, Golden State Warriors, Boston Celtics and Minnesota Timberwolves, just for starters, are all ready to swap ideas should the Hawks and Pacers fail to come to an agreement. And yes, until the sides agree and actually sign the papers, all those other teams are still in the mix....

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution (http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2006/08/13/praise_for_john.html)

rexnom
08-13-2006, 08:05 PM
Basically...if we don't get him next week...we don't get him...as long as they back off their demands for the 2007 pick, I'm fine with either.

Mac_Daddy
08-13-2006, 08:14 PM
I'll just be glad when this whole game ends. If we get him, great, if not... Let's start looking elsewhere.

PacerFan31
08-13-2006, 08:39 PM
My buddy that works for the Pacers, he is a trainer, told me tonight about an hour ago, that he is susposed to be there tomorrow morning at 8 am for Al's physical.

He told me that things "should get done" quick.

BTW: he usually doesn't comment on trades because he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about lol.

He was more pissed about having to go in at 8 than anything.

Unclebuck
08-13-2006, 09:22 PM
My buddy that works for the Pacers, he is a trainer, told me tonight about an hour ago, that he is susposed to be there tomorrow morning at 8 am for Al's physical.

He told me that things "should get done" quick.

BTW: he usually doesn't comment on trades because he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about lol.

He was more pissed about having to go in at 8 than anything.


Thanks for the info.



We should have had someone staked out at the airport this weekend looking for Al to arrive

ABADays
08-13-2006, 10:53 PM
My buddy that works for the Pacers, he is a trainer, told me tonight about an hour ago, that he is susposed to be there tomorrow morning at 8 am for Al's physical.

He told me that things "should get done" quick.

BTW: he usually doesn't comment on trades because he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about lol.

He was more pissed about having to go in at 8 than anything.

So he's the one we should be blaming for all the rehab mistakes over the past two years!

Jermaniac
08-13-2006, 11:01 PM
Harrington deal up to Pacers

By SEKOU SMITH
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 08/14/06

The Hawks could finally complete their long-anticipated sign-and-trade for Al Harrington Monday if the Indiana Pacers agree to the deal, a person familiar with the situation said Sunday.

The Hawks have agreed to sign Harrington to a six-year, $57 million deal and then send him and third-year center John Edwards to the Pacers for a future first-round draft pick, the person said.

Gone from the deal is the $3 million in cash the Hawks were seeking in addition to the draft pick before Harrington fired his agent.

Hawks general manager Billy Knight could not be reached for comment.

The Pacers have a $7.5 million trade exception they acquired last month in a sign-and-trade deal with New Orleans for Peja Stojakovic that allows them to complete the deal. The Hawks don't want to take back lengthy contracts that would put a stranglehold on the salary cap flexibility they've built up the past three years.

If the Pacers decline to complete the deal Monday, Harrington's list of options will grow at the same time Arn Tellem officially becomes his recognized agent. League rules stipulate a 15-day period between the time a player fires one agent and hires another.

As many as six other teams are waiting in the wings if the Hawks and Pacers can't complete the deal. The options for the Hawks and Harrington would multiply in that scenario, though the Hawks would have to agree to take players in return in order for any sign-and-trade deal not involving the Pacers. Those options include Harrington taking something other than a five- or six-year contract, perhaps something as short as three years, in order to make a deal work.

Another option that has remained a possibility since the free-agent negotiating period began July 1 is a multiple-team deal where Harrington gets the lucrative, long-term contract he desires and the Hawks maintain their salary flexibility by not taking on an unwanted contract. But that option requires at least one more team, and maybe more, to become reality.

The completion of the Harrington deal will allow the Hawks to finally sign Lorenzen Wright to the two-year, $6 million deal the former Hawks player and free agent center has agreed to sign.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/stories/0814harrington.html

Another Sekou article

SoupIsGood
08-13-2006, 11:03 PM
Do it Donnie! :)

Hicks
08-13-2006, 11:04 PM
Sekou suggests we haven't agreed to a deal, but I'll go ahead and let it be known I heard it from somewhere I consider extremely reliable that it's a done deal, so I think we're down to formalities. Take it for what it's worth, but I'm pretty confident at this point. Now, if we don't have Pacers.com gabbing about this by Tuesday night, I'll start to get nervous, but if someone pointed a gun at my head I'd say I expected it to be done tomorrow or Tuesday.

SoupIsGood
08-13-2006, 11:08 PM
Sekou suggests we haven't agreed to a deal, but I'll go ahead and let it be known I heard it from somewhere I consider extremely reliable that it's a done deal, so I think we're down to formalities. Take it for what it's worth, but I'm pretty confident at this point. Now, if we don't have Pacers.com gabbing about this by Tuesday night, I'll start to get nervous, but if someone pointed a gun at my head I'd say I expected it to be done tomorrow or Tuesday.

Did he mention which year the pick ended up being?

Jermaniac
08-13-2006, 11:09 PM
There are so many damn sources,people,newspapers,radiostations,tv stations saying Al is coming here tomorrow. I swear IT HAS TO HAPPEN, or I will just die.

Hicks
08-13-2006, 11:17 PM
Did he mention which year the pick ended up being?

Details of the deal were not said. Just that it was done.

docpaul
08-13-2006, 11:28 PM
Did he mention which year the pick ended up being?

My only fear is that with Atlanta's new concession (no $ involved in the trade), that we're talking a 2007 pick... grumble. A decently protected 2008 and no $ would be another master stroke right up there with the original Hornets trade exception. Walsh could be congratulated for turning lemons into lemonade.

It will essentially imply that for 250k and a 1st round draft pick, that we traded Artest for Harrington. Not too long ago, the concern was that we'd have nothing for Artest. Considering the circumstances, that's a pretty reasonable recovery.

Hicks
08-13-2006, 11:41 PM
As far as I'm concerned, given how "special" the 2007 draft is supposed to be, plus the fact that we're probably taking back John Edwards, plus the fact that we're using the TE so that Atlanta doesn't have to take back players, I think Donnie and Larry probably agree that 2007 is asking too much in return for Al on top of the rest. And as others have said, the Pacers have been saying "No" to a 2007 pick this whole time, do you think the cash will make the stop now?

SoupIsGood
08-13-2006, 11:42 PM
I like that the Hawks 'signed' Wright. It seemed to speed up this whole process a bit. Or maybe not. Gave Knight a reason to just freakin' get things done, though.

PacerFan31
08-13-2006, 11:56 PM
So he's the one we should be blaming for all the rehab mistakes over the past two years!


Nah, he started mid season last year, so he's not 100% at fault.

More like 80% :devil:

ESutt7
08-14-2006, 12:38 AM
John Edwards! :pineapple :fireworks :happydanc :highfive:

Eindar
08-14-2006, 12:50 AM
John Edwards! :pineapple :fireworks :happydanc :highfive:

It's been too long since we've had a 7'0" white guy with no appreciable basketball skills.

ESutt7
08-14-2006, 12:54 AM
Oh, he brings great towel waving to the bench, which is something we haven't had in years and should fit right into our up tempo style. Plus, being a big goofy oaf, he gives the entire team an easy target to pick on. They can become united by destroying John's self esteem and giving him a mohawk. He was a glue guy in our glory years. So, John :welcome: and :thankyou: for being exactly what this team needs. :sunshine:

Naptown_Seth
08-14-2006, 02:28 AM
It's been too long since we've had a 7'0" white guy with no appreciable basketball skills.
Don't make me break out the mohawk photo.

Edwards was a guy that couldn't even get decent minutes in the post-brawl Orlando game, which I happened to attend. I can sincerely say that his placement on the bench even in those circumstances as extremely deserved. It was actually painful to watch at times.


I wonder if they will even keep him.



Considering the trainer angle, Hicks info, and the rumors coming from the other end of things, this is getting done by mid-afternoon tomorrow unless Al's physical has some new surprise since the last time he was in town (according to Kaufman's source).

Honestly I think I might walk over to Conseco in the morning to look for a drive-in by Al.

Hicks
08-14-2006, 06:30 AM
Get out there and report back in! :cool:

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 06:34 AM
Well, it's Monday! Do or die time.

I'm officially on Al watch. :ninja: Frantic refreshing of PD will ensue.

Hicks
08-14-2006, 06:36 AM
I'll be away from the internet from 7:40am until any where from 11:30-3:30pm, so that's good and bad. Good that by the time it's over I should be able to read something that's happened (if it's later in the afternoon), bad that once my day gets boring (and it will), I'll start thinking and wondering about this. :laugh:

indygeezer
08-14-2006, 07:03 AM
There are so many damn sources,people,newspapers,radiostations,tv stations saying Al is coming here tomorrow. I swear IT HAS TO HAPPEN, or I will just die.

I have a question Jermaniac and I seriouisly do not mean this to sound offensive.

You obviously have a real fixation with getting Al back here, why is that? Are you convinced that he is the missing piece or are you in love with the idea of winning the race for Al? (been there done that myself)

I ask that because while I really do like Al personally, I don't see him as a fit here and so I cannot understand someone's over-enthusiasm for this deal.

Again, I am saying this in the most respectful tone I can manage while not being able to understand this overwhelming desire.

naptown
08-14-2006, 07:57 AM
Geezer,

Some people agree with you about Al, some dont. Some people think Al would be a good fit for the direction this team is trying to go, some dont.

It seems to me what you dont understand is people not seeing things the way you see them. I really dont mean that in a disrespectful way, but that is how it appears. Honestly.

indygeezer
08-14-2006, 08:02 AM
Geezer,

Some people agree with you about Al, some dont. Some people think Al would be a good fit for the direction this team is trying to go, some dont.

It seems to me what you dont understand is people not seeing things the way you see them. I really dont mean that in a disrespectful way, but that is how it appears. Honestly.

No, I can understand people wanting him back. But the thing I don't understand is the fixation that brings about a comment like:

"I swear IT HAS TO HAPPEN, or I will just die."

Unclebuck
08-14-2006, 08:07 AM
But the thing I don't understand is the fixation that brings about a comment like:

"I swear IT HAS TO HAPPEN, or I will just die."


I think a lot of that attitude is because the deal has been rumored for a month now.

Personally, I'd rather have Joe Johnson

Raskolnikov
08-14-2006, 08:14 AM
So, is Artest gone yet?

I mean....

naptown
08-14-2006, 08:33 AM
No, I can understand people wanting him back. But the thing I don't understand is the fixation that brings about a comment like:

"I swear IT HAS TO HAPPEN, or I will just die."

Too much coffee perhaps?

rexnom
08-14-2006, 08:46 AM
Too much coffee perhaps?
Maybe hyperbole because of excitement, perhaps?

During last year's draft when Stern was announcing the 16 pick are you guys telling me that you didn't shout things like "I'm going to get very violent if they steal Danny Granger from us here..."

owl
08-14-2006, 09:00 AM
Youth??? Personality type??? Passion???

Matney33
08-14-2006, 09:25 AM
C'mon Pacers, get it done! Iam very excited to see what they do with this roster after the deal is final. I think we are going to be really fun to watch!!!

indygeezer
08-14-2006, 09:30 AM
I guess my "problem" with this type statement goes back years to when I was fueding with 6er fans over Ivy....and again with Laker fans over Kobe. I just don't get people having such a lip lock on a player's backside that they can't deal with anything that does not worship that player. That includes putting the player above the team.
Just rediculous IMPO and that is why I questioned Jerm's motivation for the statement.

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 09:55 AM
I think a lot of that attitude is because the deal has been rumored for a month now.

Personally, I'd rather have Joe Johnson

Well, he was available last offseason..... I wanted us to get him, but we didn't.

Joe Johnson
Marquis Daniels
Danny Granger
Al Harrington
Jermaine O'Neal


how great would that be


-----


lol @ geezer

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 09:58 AM
I have a question Jermaniac and I seriouisly do not mean this to sound offensive.

You obviously have a real fixation with getting Al back here, why is that? Are you convinced that he is the missing piece or are you in love with the idea of winning the race for Al? (been there done that myself)

I ask that because while I really do like Al personally, I don't see him as a fit here and so I cannot understand someone's over-enthusiasm for this deal.

Again, I am saying this in the most respectful tone I can manage while not being able to understand this overwhelming desire.Cause he is good. And he can fit in damn good with this team. Also him being back will make Jermaine happy, and Jermaine happy, means Jermaine MVP candidate again.

Tins-Jack-Danny-Al-JO - FITS
Tins-Jack-Al-JO-Foster FITS

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:00 AM
No, I can understand people wanting him back. But the thing I don't understand is the fixation that brings about a comment like:

"I swear IT HAS TO HAPPEN, or I will just die."I was ****ing kidding. Dont worry I wont die if we dont get Al, I know you are worried, if Al isnt traded to the Pacers I'm gonna send you a text message saying that I'm alive, dont worry.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:01 AM
I guess my "problem" with this type statement goes back years to when I was fueding with 6er fans over Ivy....and again with Laker fans over Kobe. I just don't get people having such a lip lock on a player's backside that they can't deal with anything that does not worship that player. That includes putting the player above the team.
Just rediculous IMPO and that is why I questioned Jerm's motivation for the statement.Are you serious with this ****?

rexnom
08-14-2006, 10:04 AM
Well, he was available last offseason..... I wanted us to get him, but we didn't.

Joe Johnson
Marquis Daniels
Danny Granger
Al Harrington
Jermaine O'Neal


how great would that be


-----


lol @ geezer
Atlanta gave up a top three (only) protected pick in 2007, another future pick from another team they have, and Boris Diaw (a better fit in the Phoenix system than JJ) as well as a 6.5 mil exception. I think I can do without JJ. Underrated poor trade of last summer. If Eddy Curry pans out and Isiah Thomas can somehow get the Knicks out of the top ten in league's worst records then the JJ deal is even worse than the Eddy Curry deal. Lots of ifs though.

Bball
08-14-2006, 10:06 AM
Cause he is good. And he can fit in damn good with this team. Also him being back will make Jermaine happy, and Jermaine happy, means Jermaine MVP candidate again.

Tins-Jack-Danny-Al-JO - FITS
Tins-Jack-Al-JO-Foster FITS

And irony or ironies.... if JO has another season like the past two then having Al will make JO expendable (altho it could be argued if JO has another season like the past couple he is making himself expendable). In either case, Al gives us some flexibility there.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 10:10 AM
Atlanta gave up a top three (only) protected pick in 2007, another future pick from another team they have, and Boris Diaw (a better fit in the Phoenix system than JJ) as well as a 6.5 mil exception. I think I can do without JJ. Underrated poor trade of last summer. If Eddy Curry pans out and Isiah Thomas can somehow get the Knicks out of the top ten in league's worst records then the JJ deal is even worse than the Eddy Curry deal. Lots of ifs though.

Atlanta is also run by a bunch of blithering buffoons.

I bet Donnie could have gotten him without trading away the entire team, if he really wanted (and also if he were okay overpaying Johnson). I personally would have been OK with it, because even though he's overpaid, we really need a player like him next to JO.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:11 AM
And irony or ironies.... if JO has another season like the past two then having Al will make JO expendable (altho it could be argued if JO has another season like the past couple he is making himself expendable). In either case, Al gives us some flexibility there.

-Bball

Okay so this is where I say something arguing what you posted and then you reply and say.

1.Jermaine is being used as something he isnt.
2.Jermaine hurts the offense, it could be him or it could be Rick
3.Jermaine needs to learn how to lead better.
4.Jermaine O'Neal being a great shot blocker is bad for this team. He shouldnt block people no more because shot blocking is bad in BBall's book.
5.Jermaine is paid alot

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 10:13 AM
Al in no way makes JO expendable. Not unless he puts up a 20/10/3 season.

Will Galen
08-14-2006, 10:25 AM
Al in no way makes JO expendable. Not unless he puts up a 20/10/3 season.

Sure he does . . . IF . . . if JO has a year like the last two. For the simple reason JO isn't worth $20 million if he continues his play of the last two years. The thing is I doubt we could get rid of him though.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:36 AM
So what is it like 10:30 in Indy right now? So Al should be done with his physical by now, if what PF31 said is right.

Frank Slade
08-14-2006, 10:38 AM
So what is it like 10:30 in Indy right now? So Al should be done with his physical by now, if what PF31 said is right.

I have to wonder if Naptown Seth is really down at Conseco crouched in his car with Binoculars :spy:.

Perhaps he can report back. :eyebrow:

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 10:40 AM
Al in no way makes JO expendable. Not unless he puts up a 20/10/3 season.

Nope - the problem is, JO and Danny Granger make Al Harrington close to useless for this team - unless JO gets hurt.

Bball
08-14-2006, 10:43 AM
Sure he does . . . IF . . . if JO has a year like the last two. For the simple reason JO isn't worth $20 million if he continues his play of the last two years. The thing is I doubt we could get rid of him though.

I agree with this 100%. Maybe you can talk to Jermaniac about it...

-Bball

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:43 AM
Nope - the problem is, JO and Danny Granger make Al Harrington close to useless for this team - unless JO gets hurt.

Did Jermaine and Ron Artest make Al useless for this team when we won 61 games? Damn Al sure sucked that year, couldnt get off the bench at all.

But I see what you are saying, only Jermaine and a 2nd year player make Al useless.

2 All stars dont. Step your hate up, please. Thats not good at all.

Will Galen
08-14-2006, 10:46 AM
I agree with this 100%. Maybe you can talk to Jermaniac about it...

-Bball

He's on my ignore list.

rexnom
08-14-2006, 10:48 AM
Did Jermaine and Ron Artest make Al useless for this team when we won 61 games? Damn Al sure sucked that year, couldnt get off the bench at all.

But I see what you are saying, only Jermaine and a 2nd year player make Al useless.

2 All stars dont. Step your hate up, please. Thats not good at all.
I have to agree with Jermaniac here. We could use Al. I can't believe that's being questioned. The question is whether he is worth whatever we could have gotten for the TE at the trading deadline or next off-season PLUS whatever draft pick we're giving up.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 10:51 AM
Did Jermaine and Ron Artest make Al useless for this team when we won 61 games? Damn Al sure sucked that year, couldnt get off the bench at all.


If Al wants to come off the bench backing up the 3 and the 4 it'd be fine.

Otherwise, he serves no purpose on the Pacers - except to move JO to a position he doesn't want to play and restrict Granger's development.

You're saying you think Donnie's looking at paying $10 million/year for a backup?

Bball
08-14-2006, 10:52 AM
Okay so this is where I say something arguing what you posted and then you reply and say.

1.Jermaine is being used as something he isnt.

True.



2.Jermaine hurts the offense, it could be him or it could be Rick

True



3.Jermaine needs to learn how to lead better.

He needs to defer to someone else and/or earn the respect of his teammates and never declare himself the leader again. If he's the leader, others on the team will tell and show us thru their actions. He won't have to tell us (and them).... nor should he.



4.Jermaine O'Neal being a great shot blocker is bad for this team. He shouldnt block people no more because shot blocking is bad in BBall's book.

Totally not what I've said. What I've said is shotblocking is an overrated part of the game and does not necessarily show a player as a great defender or a sign of a good team defense.
There's nothing wrong with shotblocking per se', but don't use that alone to rate defense. It doesn't matter what player or team we are talking about.



5.Jermaine is paid too much

Fixed. True.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 10:52 AM
Nope - the problem is, JO and Danny Granger make Al Harrington close to useless for this team - unless JO gets hurt.

Yeah, keep saying that.... :rolleyes:

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:54 AM
If Al wants to come off the bench backing up the 3 and the 4 it'd be fine.

Otherwise, he serves no purpose on the Pacers - except to move JO to a position he doesn't want to play and restrict Granger's development.

You're saying you think Donnie's looking at paying $10 million/year for a backup?
Danny cant play 25 minutes of the bench? Playing 25 minutes off the bench is going to restrict his development. OHH MY GOD STOP THE PRESSES, Danny Granger is going to be a bust because he doesnt get to start in his 2nd season in the NBA.

IUColtPacerFan
08-14-2006, 10:55 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/SPORTS04/60814018/1004/SPORTS

From Star Reports<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
The Atlanta Hawks have offered the Indiana Pacers the chance to re-acquire Al Harrington in a sign-and-trade deal.<o:p></o:p>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 157.5pt; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-table-lspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-rspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-table-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-table-left: left; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=210 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 3.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 0"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 3.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" colSpan=2><!-- ARTICLE SIDEBAR --><?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 7.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indystar.com/graphics/clear.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\HEATHE~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\cli p_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape><o:p></o:p>
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><!--MAIN PHOTO--><!--MAIN FACTS BOX--><o:p> </o:p>
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 7.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=10><v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 7.5pt; HEIGHT: 0.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indystar.com/graphics/clear.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\HEATHE~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\cli p_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape><o:p></o:p>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The Atlanta Journal Constitution reported the deal to bring Harrington back to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>Indiana</st1:place></st1:State> could happen as early as today.<o:p></o:p>
Harrington reportedly will sign a five-year deal worth $57 million with the Hawks, then be traded along with John Edwards to the Pacers for a future first-round pick and their $7.5 million trade exception. The Journal Constitution reported the Hawks are no longer going to receive $3 million in cash from the Pacers.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:55 AM
True.



True



He needs to defer to someone else and/or earn the respect of his teammates and never declare himself the leader again. If he's the leader, others on the team will tell and show us thru their actions.



Totally not what I've said. What I've said is shotblocking is an overrated part of the game and does not necessarily show a player as a great defender or a sign of a good team defense.
There's nothing wrong with shotblocking per se', but don't use that alone to rate defense. It doesn't matter what player or team we are talking about.



Fixed. True.

-Bball

Okay now you write a 6 paragraph essay on that, or just pull up one of your posts you got on a word doc and paste it in here. And that will be all you. WTF Are you gonna do with your life when Jermaine and Tins stop playing basketball?

Bball
08-14-2006, 10:57 AM
Okay now you write a 6 paragraph essay on that, or just pull up one of your posts you got on a word doc and paste it in here. And that will be all you. WTF Are you gonna do with your life when Jermaine and Tins stop playing basketball?

Does Tinsley still play? I hadn't noticed....

-Bball

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 10:59 AM
Yeah he is still in the NBA, he has a contract so you still got something to do. Once him and JO are gone, you wont have a life.

Bball
08-14-2006, 11:00 AM
Soooo... I thought the leaks were telling us the Pacers were willing (or offering) to pay some of the cash. Assuming these latest things are true then either that was wrong all along and a stumbling block OR we've made a concession somewhere else (and I'd assume that would be the draft pick... when... protection...etc or else I suppose maybe we were fighting taking Edwards back even tho the 'leaks' had said otherwise).

IOW... what we're hearing now has the Pacers needing to give up less than what it was 'leaked' they'd offered earlier isn't it?

-Bball

rexnom
08-14-2006, 11:09 AM
Would anyone else have preferred that we gave up the 3mil instead of that first rounder?

Also, JO might not like playing center, although we're basing that off one comment when I think he really doesn't mind that much, but I'm sure that he is going to be quite good at it.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 11:12 AM
The Hawks want the first rounder they dont want the money. Of course everyone would have prefered that we gave up the money instead of the 1st rounder but thats not how the Hawks see it.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 11:12 AM
Yeah, keep saying that.... :rolleyes:

I have - where've you been?

Donnie Walsh is buying Pacer fans a $10 million per season pacifier.

Enjoy.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 11:14 AM
Now our local radio station 790thezone.com is reporting the deal will go down today. Al and Edwards for a 1st. No news on the protection of the pick.

Post from a Hawks fan on RealGM

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 11:15 AM
I have - where've you been?

Donnie Walsh is buying Pacer fans a $10 million per season pacifier.

Enjoy.
Knicks fans know alot about that. Still with 15 of those 10 million per season pacifiers I still hear alot of crying coming from the Knicks fans.

purdue101
08-14-2006, 11:16 AM
i really hope walsh can leverage a 2008 pick instead of a 2007

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 11:17 AM
Knicks fans know alot about that. Still with 15 of those 10 million per season pacifiers I still hear alot of crying coming from the Knicks fans.

Thank you for demonstrating your incapacity to refute my point by talking about the Knicks.

Frank Slade
08-14-2006, 11:17 AM
Post from a Hawks fan on RealGM

Yeah two Hawksquawk posters are reporting the same


yeah, i was just a mention during one of the "sports update" breaks. they said it during the break right before ripken came on. 6 yr/57 mil + edwards for a future 1st rounder. no mention of protection or year of pick. same info the ajc has reported, only ajc said the hawks "could" sign al..., and 790 has said the hawks "have". no major announcement given

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=164542

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 11:20 AM
Thank you for demonstrating your incapacity to refute my point by talking about the Knicks.
You still havent replyed to my post about how we stunt the growth of Danny Granger by playing him 25 minutes of the bench and starting Al?

Anthem
08-14-2006, 11:20 AM
I'm fine with a 2007 pick if it was top-20 protected.

Hicks
08-14-2006, 11:21 AM
Nope - the problem is, JO and Danny Granger make Al Harrington close to useless for this team - unless JO gets hurt.

If Al is as useless in 07 as he was for us in 04, I think I'll live.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 11:21 AM
Yeah two Hawksquawk posters are reporting the same



http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=164542

Yep.

We better not keep Edwards though, I like Josh Powell alot and he deserves to make it, Edwards though sucks and should not be kept just because of his contract.

Anthem
08-14-2006, 11:21 AM
You still havent replyed to my post about how we stunt the growth of Danny Granger by playing him 25 minutes of the bench and starting Al?
Because Granger will have a reduced role on offense. I thought it was obvious.

Anthem
08-14-2006, 11:25 AM
I think a lot of that attitude is because the deal has been rumored for a month now.

Personally, I'd rather have Joe Johnson
Deserves one of them-there "QFT" things.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 11:25 AM
Because Granger will have a reduced role on offense. I thought it was obvious.
So? There are not that many rookies who have a huge role on offense in their 2nd season, Danny is not Lebron or DWade. He isnt ready to have a huge role on offense, if we are going into the season and we are going to lean on Danny to be our 2nd option then we are in trouble. Danny shouldnt have that much pressure put on him. He was fine last year when he let the game come to him, he shouldnt be forcing it just because.

naptown
08-14-2006, 11:25 AM
Would anyone else have preferred that we gave up the 3mil instead of that first rounder?

That's an easy question to ask when it aint your 3 million. :)


Also, JO might not like playing center, although we're basing that off one comment when I think he really doesn't mind that much, but I'm sure that he is going to be quite good at it.

Exactly. We don't know JO's feelings on playing center at this point and time. He may have had a complete change of heart with Al coming in and may now be looking forward to playing center. I have not personally talked to JO lately (has any body else?) so I have no idea his true feelings on the matter. Or even if JO playing center exclusively (cause you know he will at some point in every game regardless) is even in Rick's plans.

Hicks
08-14-2006, 11:25 AM
God forbid this lineup actually works for 30 minutes per game: Granger-Harrington-O'Neal. But I'll go get my lips buttered up for the paci about to be shoved between them. :rolleyes:

Will Galen
08-14-2006, 11:26 AM
Yeah two Hawksquawk posters are reporting the same

Quote:
yeah, i was just a mention during one of the "sports update" breaks. they said it during the break right before ripken came on. 6 yr/57 mil + edwards for a future 1st rounder. no mention of protection or year of pick. same info the ajc has reported, only ajc said the hawks "could" sign al..., and 790 has said the hawks "have". no major announcement given


http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=164542


It just occured to me that the sticking point with the Pacers could still be the pick and not the money. If that is so then this is Atlanta's way of blaming the trade not going though on the Pacers. Otherwise why even announce this?

I'll belive we have a deal when we have one.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 11:31 AM
Because Granger will have a reduced role on offense. I thought it was obvious.

Especially since Granger has the potential to be twice the player Al is. And especially since my bet is that after averaging 18 ppg Al's going to be thinking he can be a go-to guy on offense. And he's still a weak rebounder for a PF.

I just hope you get him - it'll greatly enhance this season's entertainment value.

naptown
08-14-2006, 11:37 AM
I have - where've you been?

Donnie Walsh is buying Pacer fans a $10 million per season pacifier.

Enjoy.

Al is a 26 year old quality player with his best years still in front of him. You act like this is Sam Nassi trading away Alex English in his prime for a washed up George McGinnis just to put some fans in the seats.

Is being just a little realistic too much to ask?

Hicks
08-14-2006, 11:37 AM
So essentially what you're telling us DK is that Walsh is an idiot for doing this?

Suaveness
08-14-2006, 11:42 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/SPORTS04/60814018/1004/SPORTS

From Star Reports<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
The Atlanta Hawks have offered the Indiana Pacers the chance to re-acquire Al Harrington in a sign-and-trade deal.<o:p></o:p>
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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The Atlanta Journal Constitution reported the deal to bring Harrington back to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>Indiana</st1:place></st1:State> could happen as early as today.<o:p></o:p>
Harrington reportedly will sign a five-year deal worth $57 million with the Hawks, then be traded along with John Edwards to the Pacers for a future first-round pick and their $7.5 million trade exception. The Journal Constitution reported the Hawks are no longer going to receive $3 million in cash from the Pacers.<o:p></o:p>
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I thought it was 6?

Suaveness
08-14-2006, 11:43 AM
I actually agree with DK here. I think he'd be better off from the bench. But he's going to end up starting. I'm not sure how it's going to work, because as said, JO and AL feel redundant

Frank Slade
08-14-2006, 11:45 AM
I thought it was 6?

Yeah the Star goofed :unimpress

They are referencing the AJC for their source which it indicated the 6 years 57 mil.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 11:48 AM
So essentially what you're telling us DK is that Walsh is an idiot for doing this?

I think he's clutching at straws myself. I can't come up with a reason to throw that kind of money at Harrington other than placating the fan base by bringing back a favorite.

If it turns out differently, please feel free to remind me by next February or so.

I just don't see what he brings you.

Post scoring? You have Jermaine.

Outside shooting? His 3-pt numbers are respectable but I wouldn't call him a zone buster.

Slashing to the basket? Never been his strong suit.

Rebounding? For a PF his rebounding numbers are pretty weak.

He does help you on defense - versatile, can guard PF's and SF's. IMO he and Granger are (or will be) about equal as perimeter defenders while Al has a big edge against power players.

And again, he's a huge upgrade over anyone else you have to back up the 4 if JO is hurt. But between the lineup of Foster-JO-Granger or JO-Al-Granger I think it's close to a wash - and Granger IMO can be a special player. It'll be a lot tougher to reach that level if Al expects 12-14 shot attempts per game.

And I'm not real high at using JO at center. He's already getting worn down by the end of the season - 3 years running. I don't see where this will help.

Frank Slade
08-14-2006, 11:57 AM
Familiarity breeds contempt.

If this was John Harrington who we were signing for 7.6 mil this season and he had the same career thus far , I feel safe in assuming the naysayers would be much more accepting.

The fact remains however he fits in to the equation you are getting a player that for at least the immediate future is accepting a deal that is lower than his possible market value, if circumstances were different.

Gamble
08-14-2006, 12:07 PM
If things don't workout then AL is simply a tradeable piece for the future.

Time is a cure all to this rampant speculation. AL isn't a risky move
he is a safe one and who is to say what the starting line up is going
to be in 2008. Will JO be gone? ANd if he is then AL is still a good pick
up for replacing him.

I'm with you Knick when it comes to "how is this going to help" but I haven't
seen the Pacers try to run and gun with their starters.

Unclebuck
08-14-2006, 12:15 PM
DK, I agree with pretty much everything you are saying, but never underestimate the value of acquiring a very good player (especially when you aren't giving up a player in return)

Kegboy
08-14-2006, 12:22 PM
Familiarity breeds contempt.

Oh, I think it's the exact opposite.

If we were looking to give just some guy a big contract after a career year in Atlanta, after giving Jack a big contract after a career year in Atlanta, many more people would be against this, especially considering he doesn't give us anything we don't already have (besides the fabled "leadership", of course.)

3rdStrike
08-14-2006, 12:26 PM
So? There are not that many rookies who have a huge role on offense in their 2nd season, Danny is not Lebron or DWade. He isnt ready to have a huge role on offense, if we are going into the season and we are going to lean on Danny to be our 2nd option then we are in trouble. Danny shouldnt have that much pressure put on him. He was fine last year when he let the game come to him, he shouldnt be forcing it just because.

It would be fine if Harrington were signed to a one-year contract. But we're talking about 6 years. That's not restricting Granger's development, that's suffocating it. Unless you wanna have a $9+ million player who is on the bench for 80% of the life of his contract.

Secondly, "he isn't ready to have a huge role on offense" ?

Exactly how do you know? It is my opinion that he is ready to, no, he has to start this season. He is not a bench player, he never projected to be a bench player, and in fact he has star potential. So he might not be LeBron, Wade (then again he might, who knows? Wade wasn't supposed to be anywhere near this good. You don't know until you start him), etc., but I happen to believe that he is a better fit for this team even in 2007 than Harrington is. Even discounting the difference in their salaries and the fact that Harrington will cost a 1st round pick.

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 12:30 PM
I have - where've you been?

Donnie Walsh is buying Pacer fans a $10 million per season pacifier.

Enjoy.

I know you have. Keep on doing it. It greatly enhances this board's entertainment value.

waxman
08-14-2006, 12:33 PM
Harrington may not be the perfect piece....but he is a very good piece. IMO the deal is being done as much for off the court (lockeroom, chemistry, fanbase excitement & trust) reasons, as oncourt production.

I wouldn't say its a pacifier move... that would've been trading Jack for a draft pick or something. This move is intended to pump up the fanbase and make the game fun for the players again, because the last few seasons have not been fun. Entertaining.... maybe....fun....no.

Naptown_Seth
08-14-2006, 12:36 PM
It just occured to me that the sticking point with the Pacers could still be the pick and not the money. If that is so then this is Atlanta's way of blaming the trade not going though on the Pacers. Otherwise why even announce this?

I'll belive we have a deal when we have one.
That was my reaction too. Sure seemed like "well if it fails now its on Indiana". If you don't have a deal then just STFU...unless you are trying to leverage public pressure against the other side.


BTW, reporting in from my 11:30 check (sorry, didn't get up for the 8 AM attempt :blush: ), no sign of any press, no sign of any unusual activity. I asked the garage guard if he had let Al in today and he said no, though of course he then said "I couldn't tell you anyway". I will say that I'm sure my question caught him off guard and his quick reaction was clearly no, nothing close to a slip-up or anything, so it seemed honest. Could just be good at the job. :)

Foster was on the practice floor with 2 coaches that I didn't recgonize in my brief look. He was shooting 10' jumpers in a catch and shoot drill it appeared.

One odd thing was a bus pulled in just before that. Not sure what team/group would be coming to the arena by bus. I assume Fever players show up on their own unless they just flew in this morning.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/Quiet.jpg

Foster pix moved to the Bruno QOD thread about Foster's offense. No need to suck up double b'width on it. :)


Okay, that's my wanna-be journalist work for the day. :D
Sorry to say I'm not about to earn the nickname Scoop I guess.

grace
08-14-2006, 12:37 PM
My buddy that works for the Pacers, he is a trainer, told me tonight about an hour ago, that he is susposed to be there tomorrow morning at 8 am for Al's physical.

He told me that things "should get done" quick.

BTW: he usually doesn't comment on trades because he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about lol.

He was more pissed about having to go in at 8 than anything.

Did he show up or not?

imawhat
08-14-2006, 12:38 PM
Post scoring? You have Jermaine.

......And I'm not real high at using JO at center. He's already getting worn down by the end of the season - 3 years running. I don't see where this will help.

These two things go together. Having another low-post scorer on the floor will take a ton of pressure and wear/tear off of Jermaine. Having that is a big, big deal.

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 12:39 PM
Oh, I think it's the exact opposite.

If we were looking to give just some guy a big contract after a career year in Atlanta, after giving Jack a big contract after a career year in Atlanta, many more people would be against this, especially considering he doesn't give us anything we don't already have (besides the fabled "leadership", of course.)


Al has been putting up around 18 and 7 for two years. Last year was not a definitive 'career year,' he's been playing at a high level for five years now.

Besides, it could be argued that Jack's year in Atlanta wasn't his 'career year' either. He had the same level of success with us the very next year. It's not like his production dropped of drastically after leaving ATL.

imawhat
08-14-2006, 12:42 PM
That was my reaction too. Sure seemed like "well if it fails now its on Indiana". If you don't have a deal then just STFU...unless you are trying to leverage public pressure against the other side.


BTW, reporting in from my 11:30 check (sorry, didn't get up for the 8 AM attempt :blush: ), no sign of any press, no sign of any unusual activity. I asked the garage guard if he had let Al in today and he said no, though of course he then said "I couldn't tell you anyway". I will say that I'm sure my question caught him off guard and his quick reaction was clearly no, nothing close to a slip-up or anything, so it seemed honest. Could just be good at the job. :)

Foster was on the practice floor with 2 coaches that I didn't recgonize in my brief look. He was shooting 10' jumpers in a catch and shoot drill it appeared.

One odd thing was a bus pulled in just before that. Not sure what team/group would be coming to the arena by bus. I assume Fever players show up on their own unless they just flew in this morning.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/Quiet.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/Foster.jpg


Okay, that's my wanna-be journalist work for the day. :D
Sorry to say I'm not about to earn the nickname Scoop I guess.


Thanks for the update and pic!

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 12:55 PM
I just don't see what he brings you.



He's a guy that we can rely on to score the ball. Right now, the only one of those that we have is JO. (Jack is a scorer but not a very reliable one)

He gives us a quality player at the non-Jermaine big position.

IMO those are two pretty glaring needs, and I don't think you can argue that they aren't. The last time that we had an abundance of players that can score the ball was way back when Ron was here, and having Foster as the guy that gets big minutes next to JO has hurt us for awhile.

Like you said, his shooting is respectable. That's all we need from the PF spot. The fact that Danny and Al can actually do something with the basketball when left open should leave JO with a lot more room to operate.

Rebounding is a concern, but as long as we having Granger playing next to him, I'm not too worried about it.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 12:55 PM
If things don't workout then AL is simply a tradeable piece for the future.


Uh - if things don't work out you have a player who didn't work out making $10 million per year for the next five years.

And (pleasepleaseplease) Isiah Thomas will have already been fired.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 01:04 PM
He's a guy that we can rely on to score the ball. Right now, the only one of those that we have is JO. (Jack is a scorer but not a very reliable one)

He gives us a quality player at the non-Jermaine big position.

IMO those are two pretty glaring needs, and I don't think you can argue that they aren't.

He scores the ball in the same way, from the same spots on the floor, as Jermaine. Except Jermaine is more effective at it. Your gain there is very little.

And Foster-Jermaine is IMO as effective as Jermaine-Al. Better rebounding, about equal on defense and within about 5 points of being equal in scoring.

The scoring you need is either a shooter or a slasher-scorer. Al isn't either - in fact Granger's probably the best slasher on the team. You sure don't need a post scorer - it's about the only thing the Pacers DON'T need - if Jermaine's healthy.

larry
08-14-2006, 01:04 PM
Last time we were any good we had Al.
He kicked our *** all last year.
I agree I'm skeptical of where he fits, but he plays the same spot that Artest & Peja do. We are better with the 3 not being Danny I guess.
The fans love Danny & Al. The fans loved Reggie. The team has to find guys the ticket holders like. Read the fan blog on Pacers.com by a 30 year ticket holder posted today. Winning would make goats like Jax & Tins look better, but we won't get any worse with Al. We get a fan fav at a good price & he certainly won't hurt the team. Plus, when you say Tins & Jax I cringe. Get some good people.

CableKC
08-14-2006, 01:07 PM
If things don't workout then AL is simply a tradeable piece for the future.

Time is a cure all to this rampant speculation. AL isn't a risky move
he is a safe one and who is to say what the starting line up is going
to be in 2008. Will JO be gone? ANd if he is then AL is still a good pick
up for replacing him.

I'm with you Knick when it comes to "how is this going to help" but I haven't
seen the Pacers try to run and gun with their starters.

How is this going to help?

This season...Harrington will give us a good last run with JONeal at the helm for this season. If we make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.....I will be happy with the results and TPTB can figure out how on Earth they will work out a 1-2-3 punch of JONeal / Harrington / Granger.

If we don't make it to the 2nd round...then in the 2008 season...DW ( if he's still with us :pray: ) and Bird work out the best deal for JONeal we rebuild with Harrington-Granger-Daniels-Harrison as our core and get the best deal available to meet whatever needs we will have.

IMHO...Harrington helps us out now as the "2nd fiddle" that JONeal needs and as JONeal's replacement in the future ( I just hope that we don't run into a Sixers-Iverson situation like what we saw this offseason ).

Will Galen
08-14-2006, 01:11 PM
That was my reaction too. Sure seemed like "well if it fails now its on Indiana". If you don't have a deal then just STFU...unless you are trying to leverage public pressure against the other side.

Exactly. From what I have read we had one deal with Atlanta and then they backed out of it.

Now it appears the holdup is Atlanta wants a 2007 first round pick and the Pacers aren't budging. So Atlanta is trying to make it seem like the Pacers are at fault by coming off their money demand whereas that wasn't the holdup.

My question is why? It appears to me instead of just saying we can't reach a deal Atlanta is trying to place blame.

It could be too that it was a bogus report about Al coming here Monday/today. I thought so when the report said Tellem would become Al's agent today when other reports said the 16th.

Like I said, I'll believe it when it's announced.

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 01:13 PM
He scores the ball in the same way, from the same spots on the floor, as Jermaine. Except Jermaine is more effective at it. Your gain there is very little.



Hmm, I don't think so. Al has always seemed much more perimeter oriented than JO.

I guess we'll have to see. I think Al's offense will fit in pretty well next to JO and Danny. I think having Al is best for Danny anyway. Tossing Danny in as a starter -and- expecting him to score a lot for us might have been a bit much to expect out of him as a second year player. This way, Danny can just focus on adapting to playing big minutes and becoming a solid starter in the NBA.... and whatever scoring comes with it is gravy.

Another thing I like, a O'Neal/Harrington/Granger frontcourt forces the other team to guard Al with their most mobile post defender, not Jermaine.

For example, if we're playing Gooden and Big Z, Gooden is going to have to guard Al, instead of JO possibly being guarded by Gooden and Foster by Z.

Basically, JO is going to be guardest by the slowest guy on the court, if there is a huge difference in quickness between the opponent's two big men (like Z/Gooden). With Jermaine losing weight, this could give him more opprotunity to out-quick guys. That, or force teams to match up with us and rotate in a quicker guy.

Lord Helmet
08-14-2006, 01:17 PM
I'll believe the deal is done when I see, as of now I'm in, "It's never going to happpen-mode."

Putnam
08-14-2006, 01:19 PM
(Harrington) scores the ball in the same way, from the same spots on the floor, as Jermaine. Except Jermaine is more effective at it. Your gain there is very little.

Knick, you make it sound like Jermaine and Al are going to stand side-by-side on the floor, and get in each other's way whenever they are on the court together.

Soupisgood refutes you by denying that Jermaine and Al are similar. I tend to agree with you that their game is pretty similar. But I think the area of the court where either of them can be effective is large enough for two offensive players to operate. I can see them helping each other spread the floor -- one in the high post and the other on the baseline. It could work!

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 01:24 PM
Knick, you make it sound like Jermaine and Al are going to stand side-by-side on the floor, and get in each other's way whenever they are on the court together.


No - when Al posts up Jermaine will clear out and when JO posts up Al will clear out. They can each hit the 15-18 foot jumper which isn't horrible - except Granger can do the same thing.

This much is true (whoever posted it) with Al on the floor teams can't play 5-on-4 and virtually ignore Foster. But IMO Al's best suited to go back to being 6th man anyway. Danny and JO both are (or will be) better players. Let Al back 'em up.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 01:25 PM
Last time we were any good we had Al.


You also had Reggie and Artest. And Al was your 6th man.

RON ARTEST
08-14-2006, 01:30 PM
can you imagine if artest and reggie were back on the pacers with al as the sixth man? damn, good thing ron is crazy because my team would suck. :laugh:

CableKC
08-14-2006, 01:31 PM
Exactly. From what I have read we had one deal with Atlanta and then they backed out of it.

Now it appears the holdup is Atlanta wants a 2007 first round pick and the Pacers aren't budging. So Atlanta is trying to make it seem like the Pacers are at fault by coming off their money demand whereas that wasn't the holdup.

My question is why? It appears to me instead of just saying we can't reach a deal Atlanta is trying to place blame.

It could be too that it was a bogus report about Al coming here Monday/today. I thought so when the report said Tellem would become Al's agent today when other reports said the 16th.

Like I said, I'll believe it when it's announced.

Therein lies the problem.......I know that we would like to believe that we are the only deal in town.....when it comes to moving Harrington....but we're not.....we're just option #1. With DD00's comments about Walsh/Bird sticking to their guns about the 2007 1st round pick......I have some reservations about how likely this will happen. Although it would be nice to get a "No players" type S&T for the Hawks Ownership....in the end.....all the Hawks really want is a 2007 1st round pick.....which they can get from the Nuggets, Warriors and Lakers.

It just seems odd to me that there is a "rumored" offer highlighted in an article without details of the single sticking point that us Pacer and Hawks fans know is the likely sticking point.....the draft pick and what year the pick is in.

By taking the $$$ Cash Considerations out of the equation....I can see how the Hawks are "framing" any deal that falls through with the Pacers as a "We tried our best...but they didn't want to get a 19/7 player simply because they don't want to give up a 2007 draft pick".

For the very reasons why I think we should get Harrington....if the 2007 draft pick is the sticking point...I hope that its because of the level of protection on the 2007 1st round pick...and not the pick itself. I really get the sense that this is the last chance that we are going to get at Harrington as Tellum will likely want the most lucrative deal that he can get for Harrington....which ( please correct me if I am wrong ) can come in any S&T deal with actual players involved from other teams. I know its not optimal for the Hawks to get players in return....but I can see that if Tellum applies pressure to the Hawks...that Ownership can bend enough where they can get their 2007 1st round pick back while taking back Expiring contracts ( a la any Lakers Mihm/Filler/1st round pick offer ).

Naptown_Seth
08-14-2006, 01:35 PM
Proof FOR Al fitting - Ron, JO, AL all got 30+ mpg and were the 3 highest minutes guys that season. Team won 61. JO and Ron were all-stars, Al almost won 6th man of the year.

Ron, JO, brad Miller and Al also won a lot of games despite Isiah's coaching and Ron's 2nd half meltdown.



Proof AGAINST Al fitting - (crickets making sounds of random speculation)


Maybe I'd have more open ears if JO and Al hadn't already had GREAT success side by side with yet a 3rd post-up type SF. And in fact Granger is MORE of a perimeter type than Ron was.

I mean if it had simply never been tried then I could see 2 sides both guessing at how it might work (or not), but right now one side just says "already did work" and the other says "that doesn't matter, this is dumb cause I say so".

Sorry, I'm going with actual results over someone's opinion.


And let's see that list of non-rookie contracts where 17/6 guys (downplaying Al's numbers a tad even) are getting under $10m per year on new contracts. Peja is getting nearly $13m per. Ben is getting $15m per.

PJ BROWN is on a 8.5m per contract from back in 2003 even. Dampier is getting more than $10m per. Kenyon Martin anyone, brutal compared to Al's contract. Brand is just shy of $12m per as well.

DALEMBERT just got this exact same deal last year and he's only 1 year younger than Al.



NO ONE sees Al "saving the day and leading them to a title", that's just a fun straw man that anti-Al's like to beat on instead of facing up to the results from his final seasons here or what he did in Atlanta.

People are saying that AL will HELP, and that with a healthy lineup also, plus some of other changes, Granger's improvement, the swap of Croshere for Daniels, the promise of both White and Williams, etc that the team could still be a contender. It's a lot more factors than just Harrington.


17/6.5 players last season (some guys are maxed out and make less due to years of service)

KG ($20m per)
Marion (13m+)
Amare (would have been, and just shy of $15m per)
Duncan (17m+)
Brand (nearly 14m)
Shaq (20m)
JO (18m)
Webber (nearly 18m)
Dirk (13m+)
Jamison (13m+)
Okur (8m+, last year was first time at 17/6.5)
Yao (max deal)
Gasol (14m+)
Bosh (almost 16m)
LeBron (almost 16m)
Zach Randolph (14m)
Richard Jefferson (nearly $13m)
Pierce (almost $20m)
David West (rookie contract)


ONE player put up numbers like that and got less than 13m, Okur. And if his numbers stay in this range he'll get paid too, he signed with Utah while still a 9/6 guy in Detroit (admittedly with potential).

Save the bad team thing unless the Jazz or Blazers or Raptors were kicking butt or unless you want to tell me that Bosh's numbers were BS because Toronto was no good.

I'm not calling Harrington another Marion, but I am saying that he's putting up numbers that get him into some pretty elite company, and its a group of players all getting paid huge money compared to the sub-10m he'd be taking.

Naptown_Seth
08-14-2006, 01:49 PM
You also had Reggie and Artest. And Al was your 6th man.
They also DIDN'T HAVE Granger; and Ron, JO and Al played at the same time late in games. It is mathematically impossible for them to not have all played at the same time in fact. Reggie scored less and played less than Al, JO or Ron.

But go on telling us it didn't happen and that Ron was more of an outside shooter than Granger is. If it makes sense to you I suppose...to me it looks like a frontline that spreads a little better than the 03-04 version due to Danny's game.

Brad and JO also played side by side, and both are short jumper bigs rather than true back to the basket scorers. Somehow they both made the AS team in the same season on the same team while stepping on each other's feet.

Honestly Al is much more comfortable scoring with his back to the basket than JO. JO prefers to face up. Having a 2nd big to come to the rim when the first is doubled is even better than having a spot-up 3 guy to protect against doubles, simply because and-1 plays at the rim are a much better PCT scoring play and help more due to foul issues they create.

This is how JO and Al interacted before, coming to the rim if the defense helped with a 2nd big.

Anthem
08-14-2006, 01:49 PM
I just don't see what he brings you.

Post scoring? You have Jermaine.

Outside shooting? His 3-pt numbers are respectable but I wouldn't call him a zone buster.

Slashing to the basket? Never been his strong suit.
I have to disagree with this. While Al isn't a slasher at the 3, he's very effective doing that from the 4. When he was here, I always wanted him to slash more and post up less. Al's got a strong mid-range game as well. I'd be happy to see Al in more of a high-post role emphasizing shooting and slashing, with some post work as needed.

I'll agree that he's not an ideal piece, but he's an improvement over Foster and in fact anybody else out there.

IUColtPacerFan
08-14-2006, 01:53 PM
They also DIDN'T HAVE Granger; and Ron, JO and Al played at the same time late in games. It is mathematically impossible for them to not have all played at the same time in fact. Reggie scored less and played less than Al, JO or Ron.

But go on telling us it didn't happen and that Ron was more of an outside shooter than Granger is. If it makes sense to you I suppose...to me it looks like a frontline that spreads a little better than the 03-04 version due to Danny's game.

Brad and JO also played side by side, and both are short jumper bigs rather than true back to the basket scorers. Somehow they both made the AS team in the same season on the same team while stepping on each other's feet.

Honestly Al is much more comfortable scoring with his back to the basket than JO. JO prefers to face up. Having a 2nd big to come to the rim when the first is doubled is even better than having a spot-up 3 guy to protect against doubles, simply because and-1 plays at the rim are a much better PCT scoring play and help more due to foul issues they create.

This is how JO and Al interacted before, coming to the rim if the defense helped with a 2nd big.
I like having you over here Seth. It makes this board a little more :sunshine: and a little less :rain:.....and that is a very good thing. :buddies:

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 02:03 PM
They also DIDN'T HAVE Granger; and Ron, JO and Al played at the same time late in games. It is mathematically impossible for them to not have all played at the same time in fact. Reggie scored less and played less than Al, JO or Ron.

But go on telling us it didn't happen and that Ron was more of an outside shooter than Granger is. If it makes sense to you I suppose...to me it looks like a frontline that spreads a little better than the 03-04 version due to Danny's game.

Brad and JO also played side by side, and both are short jumper bigs rather than true back to the basket scorers. Somehow they both made the AS team in the same season on the same team while stepping on each other's feet.

Honestly Al is much more comfortable scoring with his back to the basket than JO. JO prefers to face up. Having a 2nd big to come to the rim when the first is doubled is even better than having a spot-up 3 guy to protect against doubles, simply because and-1 plays at the rim are a much better PCT scoring play and help more due to foul issues they create.

This is how JO and Al interacted before, coming to the rim if the defense helped with a 2nd big.

I've bolded the parts you just made up. I have no response for fiction.

And Ron WAS more of an outside shooter than Granger is so far. Check the numbers. I think Granger will be better.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 02:06 PM
I have to disagree with this. While Al isn't a slasher at the 3, he's very effective doing that from the 4. When he was here, I always wanted him to slash more and post up less. Al's got a strong mid-range game as well. I'd be happy to see Al in more of a high-post role emphasizing shooting and slashing, with some post work as needed.

I'll agree that he's not an ideal piece, but he's an improvement over Foster and in fact anybody else out there.

From what I remember, Al's two main moves were a turnaround jumper from the block and he liked to move into the lane (moving parallel to the basket) to about 12 feet and turn toward the basket for a jumper. Those were his "go-to" moves. He was just starting to get range from 15-18 feet his last year in Indy.

Whether he SHOULD have slashed more's another story - but that was more Artest's strength anyway.

Anthem
08-14-2006, 02:29 PM
From what I remember, Al's two main moves were a turnaround jumper from the block and he liked to move into the lane (moving parallel to the basket) to about 12 feet and turn toward the basket for a jumper. Those were his "go-to" moves. He was just starting to get range from 15-18 feet his last year in Indy.

Whether he SHOULD have slashed more's another story - but that was more Artest's strength anyway.
Oh, there's no doubt that Al was in love with the MJ turnaround jumper. But it wasn't his best move.

In the playoff series against the Pistons, Sheed was doing a great job shutting down his post game, and Al rediscovered his slashing ability. It was a very good thing, and that was the best thing he did offensively in that series.

I'm not arguing that Al doesn't like the low post like O'Neal. He obviously does. I'm just saying that he can shoot from midrange and slash to the basket, two skills Foster doesn't have. So the potential is there that he could fit us well.

Doug
08-14-2006, 02:43 PM
I think Danny Al-Jermaine will work pretty well. Al will have the guard the 5s, not JO. Al's got a better lower body for it. JO can play weak-side shotblocker. Danny can be the wing defender.

Bball
08-14-2006, 02:50 PM
And most are assuming Carlisle starts Granger. How do we know he doesn't start Foster-Al-JO (besides the fact many of us would have a cow)?

-Bball

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 02:54 PM
And most are assuming Carlisle starts Granger. How do we know he doesn't start Foster-Al-JO (besides the fact many of us would have a cow)?

-Bball


Because he won't have a job if he doesn't....

If you watched that conference awhile back, you know that Granger is a big part of Donnie's plans...

rexnom
08-14-2006, 02:55 PM
I think he'll start Foster-Al-JO. I really hope he doesn't, but he just might. And then go to Danny al-Jermaine for crunch time ala 2003-2004. Not sure if it'll work.

Will Galen
08-14-2006, 03:02 PM
I think he'll start Foster-Al-JO. I really hope he doesn't, but he just might. And then go to Danny al-Jermaine for crunch time ala 2003-2004. Not sure if it'll work.

Me too. Danny will come off the bench for both JO and Al. Then they will all three play together at crunch time. Dan will still get 30 minutes.

Of course we still haven't got Al and I'm not holding my breath. Plus Foster could be traded.

CableKC
08-14-2006, 03:05 PM
Because he won't have a job if he doesn't....

If you watched that conference awhile back, you know that Granger is a big part of Donnie's plans...

You could still play a big part in Donnie's plan and still not be a starter.

I'm not saying that Carlisle can't change...but until I see it...I default to what Carlisle always does......he will go with a starting lineup that he is most comfortable with....Harrington/JONeal/Foster.

But given the # of minutes that Granger is likely to get...25-30...it doesn't mean that there won't be a Granger/Harrington/JONeal lineup at any time of the game....I just think that Carlisle will start off with a lineup that includes Foster.

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 03:06 PM
I dunno, why would he given Jeff token starts? It made sense two years back, but we're looking to become more uptempo. Why start Jeff instead of Granger, if that is indeed the goal?

But IMO Jeff will be traded anyway. Well it's not really IMO, more like IM[wildguessofthesummer].

CableKC
08-14-2006, 03:14 PM
I dunno, why would he given Jeff token starts? It made sense two years back, but we're looking to become more uptempo. Why start Jeff instead of Granger, if that is indeed the goal?

But IMO Jeff will be traded anyway. Well it's not really IMO, more like IM[wildguessofthesummer].

Didn't Bruno say that Foster's game would fit an uptempo type of offense? :shrug:

I don't know....I'm just saying that for now...until he proves otherwise....Carlisle is a creature of habits....he does what he is most comfortable with. Also...in Donnie's press conference...did he say that Granger is going to start? or that he ( or I think Bird ) said that he will get his 25+ minutes a game....but didn't specify whether he would be a starter or not.

IUColtPacerFan
08-14-2006, 04:08 PM
Greg Rakestraw is saying that he doesn't think it will get done today, but it will get done. He said that isn't for sure (that it won't get done today) but most likely from what he has heard. Mark Montieth will be on later.

www.espn950.com

Naptown_Seth
08-14-2006, 04:15 PM
I've bolded the parts you just made up. I have no response for fiction.

And Ron WAS more of an outside shooter than Granger is so far. Check the numbers. I think Granger will be better.
Number of JO/Ron/Al version of the Pacers games you have on tape to verify this? Just going by memory or what?

JO posts up, but he likes to then face up often. He often sets the high screen and then gets the return pass for the FT line jumper, or runs down and gets a catch and shoot at that point. Al rarely faces up in the low post and instead goes for the tight contact spin or the push-off turnaround. JO is often ripped by some Pacers fans for shooting TOO MANY jumpers.

Al will shoot the 3 and face the basket, but if he goes low post its to use a physical post move rather than a runner to the lane or to then face up and use a short jumper.

JO shot chart from his great game vs New Jersey as one classic example, looks like 11 of 15 shots from outside the paint. Probably his patented sky hook, right? No way was he facing up and taking jumpers. :rolleyes:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=260427011


Obviously you don't know me because you would never try to call me out on "the numbers"...

03-04 Ron (the one that we are discussing playing next to JO and Al)
42% FG, 31% 3P, 22% of FGAs came from 3, 7.8 FTA/48 drawn (indication of inside play), 73% FT

Granger last season

46%, 32% 3P, 19.7 % of FGAs came from 3, 4.0 FGA/48 drawn, 77% FT

That's an AS season compared to a rookie, and Granger will be doing better this year than in his rookie year. By April Danny was taking 34% of his shots from 3 (over 11 game span). In the 6 games after that playing vs New Jersey Danny took 47% of his shots from 3 (and hit it at a 56% rate even, clearly well out of his expected norm of course).

He showed that he could hit it better (slightly) and that he would shoot it nearly as frequently, clearly moreso as he gained confidence with his role on the team. FTA are not a 1 for 1 indicator, but there is a strong correlation between fouls drawn and jump shots taken vs going to the rim.

And this is from Danny playing with Peja and JO, not Al and JO (during April I mean). I would assume that Peja was considered the primary 3 ball guy in that frontline, much more than with Al instead (even with his improvement at it). And Danny was playing PF.


You also struggled with the word "fiction" and got it confused with "opinion" since you indicated that the following quote by me was fiction not worth responding too (how F'n convenient BTW, as in "weak").

Having a 2nd big to come to the rim when the first is doubled is even better than having a spot-up 3 guy to protect against doubles, simply because and-1 plays at the rim are a much better PCT scoring play and help more due to foul issues they create.
I'll stand by that sentiment. 3 points AND a foul drawn is better than just 3 points. I'd love to hear the math disproving that though, should be some interesting spin on how the other team likes to get in foul trouble or something.

Or maybe you just don't think 2 bigs work well together which is why the Spurs were so awful once Duncan joined Robinson, or why a passing big like Vlade was so worthless to Sacto. No one ever likes to see interior passing from a double team, right?


But seeing your list of what you think is terrible and/or incorrect makes it easy to see why you don't think much of Al coming here.



From what I remember, Al's two main moves were a turnaround jumper from the block and he liked to move into the lane (moving parallel to the basket) to about 12 feet and turn toward the basket for a jumper.No. Al's 2nd move was also from the block, the quick chicken-wing spin. In fact it got commented on during some of the Pacers national telecasts, the speed of the move that is. It was considered to be his strongest asset in fact.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 04:17 PM
Mark about to be on

Frank Slade
08-14-2006, 04:22 PM
Getting something in return
By Sekou Smith | Monday, August 14, 2006, 03:55 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Everyone from Martha Stewart to the Easter Bunny has had their say about the Hawks’ sign-and-trade deal for Al Harrington, how lopsided it is (not in the Hawks’ favor) and how they could have done this, that or the other to maximize their return. But unless I missed something about how sign-and-trades work for unrestricted free agents, the Hawks are doing something that the Detroit Pistons did not when they lost Ben Wallace to Chicago last month; they’re actually getting SOMETHING instead of nothing.

I don’t know about you, but I’d rather get something in exchange for losing one of my best players as opposed to getting absolutely nothing. If we want to play the what-they-should-have-done game (one that’s a staple on this blog) we could do that forever, and some would argue that we have.

But if the deal finally goes through (Pacers officials are scheduled to sit down and make a decision this afternoon), why would anyone be upset that the Hawks are actually getting something? If they had let Harrington walk away without any compensation I could understand the collective outrage. I’d be right there with you. I think a trade deadline package for say a point guard and young center makes better sense than going through the remainder of this past season with Harrington knowing you weren’t going to bring him back.

But that’s not the song I was singing in February, before it became obvious that the Hawks’ ownership issues (and I’m done letting anyone tell me they have nothing to do with the day-to-day operations) would dictate every move, big and small, the team makes.

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2006/08/14/getting_somethi.html

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 04:23 PM
Says Al will be a Pacers in the next 24-48 hours

Mourning
08-14-2006, 04:27 PM
Al is a better rebounder then Peja. :huh: I remember Peja beying pretty good at rebounding at SF himself, especially compared to Al rebounding at PF and not really posting brilliant rebounding numbers. Isn't that an odd conclusion of Marc?

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

indytoad
08-14-2006, 04:27 PM
I dunno, why would he given Jeff token starts? It made sense two years back, but we're looking to become more uptempo. Why start Jeff instead of Granger, if that is indeed the goal?

But IMO Jeff will be traded anyway. Well it's not really IMO, more like IM[wildguessofthesummer].

I dunno, Jeff is probably more suited to an uptempo game than most of our players. As far as why Jeff would start, probably a combination of Rick's staying in his comfort zone and Foster's seniority. I would say - if the roster undergoes no further changes and there are no injuries - there's about a 99% chance of Foster starting over Granger next season.

IndyToad
Infected with Phazon

sportsmusicxboxpacer
08-14-2006, 04:28 PM
no way
link??

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 04:30 PM
Al is a better rebounder then Peja. :huh: I remember Peja beying pretty good at rebounding at SF himself, especially compared to Al rebounding at PF and not really posting brilliant rebounding numbers. Isn't that an odd conclusion of Marc?

Regards,

Mourning :cool:He is easily a better rebounder.

Hicks
08-14-2006, 04:36 PM
Can we get a little more detail? What did he say?

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 04:40 PM
Not much about the deal just mentioned that the deal will be

-Al and Edwards for TE and pick
-Deal will happen in the next 24-48 hours unless something unexpected happens
-Then talked a whole bunch about how Al fits in with the team.

To me he sounded like he thought it was already a done deal and Al is already on the Pacers.

Hicks
08-14-2006, 04:40 PM
So we're looking at Wednesday then.

I'll tell you, there's nothing I'd like to know more when this is over than the true story on what the hell kept pushing it back like this. I told myself based on what I'd last heard to expect it to take until Thursday, but honestly once the day got started I kept waiting for it to happen today.

Mourning
08-14-2006, 04:43 PM
Oh Really?

Al 2005-2006:
6.90 rpg in 36.6 mpg

Peja 2005-2006: SacTown/Indiana
5.3/6.3 (averaging 5.8) in 36.6 mpg

Wow! HUGE differential!!! Depending on what statistic you use that's ... at best 1.6 rebound on a team that does not rebound, while beying just 0.6 rpg below in Indiana!
:woohoo: .... :sarcasm:.

Yeah, Al is EASILY a better rebounder then Peja, especially factoring in that Al spends much more time at PF to get defensive rebounds close to the basket compared to Peja playing BY FAR the most time at SF mostly further away from the basket.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

LG33
08-14-2006, 04:44 PM
Assuming the deal goes through, can someone tell me how worthless John Edwards really is...I mean, I haven't seen him play (I live out of the area and I assume he doesn't get much playing time)

Hicks
08-14-2006, 04:48 PM
Assuming the deal goes through, can someone tell me how worthless John Edwards really is...I mean, I haven't seen him play (I live out of the area and I assume he doesn't get much playing time)

All you really need to know is: The night after the brawl, we played a game against Orlando with only 6 players available. Edwards was one of them, and he barely played.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 04:49 PM
Oh Really?

Al 2005-2006:
6.90 rpg in 36.6 mpg

Peja 2005-2006: SacTown/Indiana
5.3/6.3 (averaging 5.8) in 36.6 mpg

Wow! HUGE differential!!! Depending on what statistic you use that's ... at best 1.6 rebound on a team that does not rebound, while beying just 0.6 rpg below in Indiana!
:woohoo: .... :sarcasm:.

Yeah, Al is EASILY a better rebounder then Peja, especially factoring in that Al spends much more time at PF to get defensive rebounds close to the basket compared to Peja playing BY FAR the most time at SF mostly further away from the basket.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Easily. He is also better then him in everything else not called shooting.

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 04:49 PM
He is easily a better rebounder.

Agreed...

Mourning
08-14-2006, 04:50 PM
Assuming the deal goes through, can someone tell me how worthless John Edwards really is...I mean, I haven't seen him play (I live out of the area and I assume he doesn't get much playing time)

He played for us last year... sort of. Remember the first game we played after the brawl when we hardly could get enough players on the floor? Well he was one of them ... and he hardly played ANY minutes. That should tell you something.

I think he improved a little during the season, but rightnow he should not be in ANY NBA team, he should be in the NBADL.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 04:51 PM
All you really need to know is: The night after the brawl, we played a game against Orlando with only 6 players available. Edwards was one of them, and he barely played.Seriously. David looked like he was going to have a heart attack he was so tired and that bum Edwards couldnt even give him a little break. We better no cut Josh Powell a young big man who has potential to keep this bum on our team.

But I could really see it being another Snap vs Eddie Gill thing, where the worse player with a contract gets kept.

Mourning
08-14-2006, 04:53 PM
Agreed...

Disagree. He is at best a slightly better rebounder playing PF (easy rebounds) as opposed to Peja playing SF.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Hicks
08-14-2006, 05:09 PM
Here is ESPNews' bit on this whole thing. It's what ESPNRadio has been saying:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/espn081406.mov

able
08-14-2006, 05:11 PM
Getting something in return

By Sekou Smith | Monday, August 14, 2006, 03:55 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Everyone from Martha Stewart to the Easter Bunny has had their say about the Hawks’ sign-and-trade deal for Al Harrington, how lopsided it is (not in the Hawks’ favor) and how they could have done this, that or the other to maximize their return. But unless I missed something about how sign-and-trades work for unrestricted free agents, the Hawks are doing something that the Detroit Pistons did not when they lost Ben Wallace to Chicago last month; they’re actually getting SOMETHING instead of nothing.

I don’t know about you, but I’d rather get something in exchange for losing one of my best players as opposed to getting absolutely nothing. If we want to play the what-they-should-have-done game (one that’s a staple on this blog) we could do that forever, and some would argue that we have.

But if the deal finally goes through (Pacers officials are scheduled to sit down and make a decision this afternoon), why would anyone be upset that the Hawks are actually getting something? If they had let Harrington walk away without any compensation I could understand the collective outrage. I’d be right there with you. I think a trade deadline package for say a point guard and young center makes better sense than going through the remainder of this past season with Harrington knowing you weren’t going to bring him back.

But that’s not the song I was singing in February, before it became obvious that the Hawks’ ownership issues (and I’m done letting anyone tell me they have nothing to do with the day-to-day operations) would dictate every move, big and small, the team makes.

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2006/08/14/getting_somethi.html

Hawks fans sorta resigned, but not happy

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 05:13 PM
I swear if the Hawks have agreed to that stupid TE and pick deal and WE dont want to do it, I want Bird and Walsh fired.

Jaydawg2270
08-14-2006, 05:13 PM
i guess we will have to wait till tonight or tommorow then

SoupIsGood
08-14-2006, 05:14 PM
Disagree. He is at best a slightly better rebounder playing PF (easy rebounds) as opposed to Peja playing SF.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:


I wouldn't call it easy rebounds. Al goes up against the best rebounders in the league at PF. He's defintely got to earn them.

If anything, it sometimes looks like Peja gets the 'easy' rebounds, with nearly being 6' 10 and solidly built (huge for a SF). Also, he doesn't even care abot rebounding half the time.

Hicks
08-14-2006, 05:35 PM
I've been listening to ESPN950 and Greg is talking as if it's going to happen.

grace
08-14-2006, 05:37 PM
I've been listening to ESPN950 and Greg is talking as if it's going to happen.

Hasn't he been doing that since Channel 13 broke the story years...I mean weaks ago?

Eric_Pincus
08-14-2006, 05:37 PM
that'd be funny if the Pacers just said pass after all that . . .

Eric_Pincus
08-14-2006, 05:37 PM
well maybe funny isn't the right word

Eric_Pincus
08-14-2006, 05:38 PM
I hope this thing gets put to bed already . . .

ESutt7
08-14-2006, 05:42 PM
^Yah what is there to discuss? How do you pass on that deal? Harrington for a pick at a lower price than he would have gotten elsewhere...no-brainer. Get this thing done.

DisplacedKnick
08-14-2006, 07:43 PM
Number of JO/Ron/Al version of the Pacers games you have on tape to verify this? Just going by memory or what?

JO posts up, but he likes to then face up often. He often sets the high screen and then gets the return pass for the FT line jumper, or runs down and gets a catch and shoot at that point. Al rarely faces up in the low post and instead goes for the tight contact spin or the push-off turnaround. JO is often ripped by some Pacers fans for shooting TOO MANY jumpers.

JO shoots jumpers WHEN the defense packs it in and leaves him wide open. His preference is the post - it's what he lives and dies by. Does he sometimes get on a roll and shoot too many jumpers? Sure - but he can in no way be characterized as a jump shooter like you have.

And if we're discussing the 03-04 season, that was before he even became consistent with his jump shot.

It's nice that you'd post stats from a game where JO was unconscious from outside. Try, say, game 6.



Obviously you don't know me because you would never try to call me out on "the numbers"...

03-04 Ron (the one that we are discussing playing next to JO and Al)
42% FG, 31% 3P, 22% of FGAs came from 3, 7.8 FTA/48 drawn (indication of inside play), 73% FT

Granger last season

46%, 32% 3P, 19.7 % of FGAs came from 3, 4.0 FGA/48 drawn, 77% FT

That's an AS season compared to a rookie, and Granger will be doing better this year than in his rookie year. By April Danny was taking 34% of his shots from 3 (over 11 game span). In the 6 games after that playing vs New Jersey Danny took 47% of his shots from 3 (and hit it at a 56% rate even, clearly well out of his expected norm of course).

Nice.[/quote]

Artest took and made more 3-pointers per game than Granger ever has (in his one season).

Ron Artest is much more of a 3-point shooter than Granger. Now I expect Granger will become more of a 3-pt threat eventually, but he hasn't been.

I don't know how many ways you want to ridiculously twist numbers around but that's the bottom line - so far in their careers the 3-pt shot has been more a part of Artest's game than Granger's.



You also struggled with the word "fiction" and got it confused with "opinion" since you indicated that the following quote by me was fiction not worth responding too (how F'n convenient BTW, as in "weak").

I'll stand by that sentiment. 3 points AND a foul drawn is better than just 3 points. I'd love to hear the math disproving that though, should be some interesting spin on how the other team likes to get in foul trouble or something.

Oh - the math is fine. It's just a goofy basketball concept.

If you have no 3-pt threat and all five defenders are within the arc, there won't be any cutting to the basket because there's no room. There also won't be much of a post game from JO - the NJ series last spring showed that much.

However that's not the problem with the post. The problem was that when JO was on the floor Al was not a cutter. Ron Artest was, and sometimes Reggie, but not AL (I won't say he never cut, just that it wasn't much, which makes sense). Probably didn't matter much because JO wasn't any good at hitting cutters anyway - that's how you average 2 assists per game. Al's spot when JO was in was about 15-20 feet away and being ready to do what everyone on a Rick Carlisle coached team does - rotate back on defense though if he got a pass he'd take it.

In fact, the best guy at hitting cutters from that team was Artest. Heck, when Rick had Tinsley buried on the bench that was your best offense - have Artest as a triple threat at the elbow and run motion.

In fact one of the big complaints with Al was how he'd just stand around and watch when he didn't have the ball. Wasn't quite on a par with the black hole complaints (which I always thought was overblown anyway since Al was in when JO was out and his job was to score) but was certainly there - was for everyone but Reggie actually.

Speed
08-14-2006, 09:03 PM
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/stories/0815hawks.html

By SEKOU SMITH
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 08/14/06

Al Harrington's immediate NBA future remains a mystery for at least another day.

By the end of business Monday the Hawks and Indiana Pacers still had not come to a mutual agreement on a proposed sign-and-trade deal that's been in the works for weeks.

The Hawks have already agreed to sign Harrington to a six-year, $57 million deal and then send him and third-year center John Edwards to the Pacers for a future first-round draft pick.

After a week of vacation Pacers officials made it back into the office Monday with plans to sort through the details of the proposed deal and come to a decision this week, perhaps as early as Tuesday.

"I'm hopeful that we can find resolution to it one way or another," Hawks general manager Billy Knight said by phone Monday night. "We're just waiting for them to tell us what they want to do."

Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh told the Indianapolis Star Monday that he expected "some type of breakthrough this week — at least that's what I'm hoping for."

If the Hawks and Pacers don't come to an agreement Harrington and his new agent, Arn Tellem, are prepared to restart the negotiating process with more than a half dozen teams interested in Harrington, a 6-9, 245-pound, eight-year veteran who co-captained the Hawks in each of the past two seasons.

"It's at the point where it has to get done or it doesn't get done," Walsh said of the Hawks-Pacers deal. "We like Al and we think he fits in with what we're trying to do here."

The Pacers know both Harrington and Edwards well. They selected Harrington with the 25th pick in the 1998 draft. Edwards went undrafted but made the Pacers' roster as a free agent before the start of the 2004-05 season.

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 09:19 PM
Walsh and Bird are going to screw this up, I know it. They are going to ask the Hawks to give us Marvin Williams and Josh Smith or we are not taking John Edwards contract, his amazing 1 million dollar contract. I bet thats what the hold up is over, they dont want to take on John Edwards huge salary.

Speed
08-14-2006, 09:24 PM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060728/SPORTS04/607280408/1088/SPORTS04

From 7/28/06 article:

"We're dealing with him," Walsh said. "We've been dealing with him. It's up to Billy now. We're just waiting to hear where we are."

from above article:

"I'm hopeful that we can find resolution to it one way or another," Hawks general manager Billy Knight said by phone Monday night. "We're just waiting for them to tell us what they want to do."


Um I know some folks that can tell you both what to do......

Unclebuck
08-14-2006, 09:29 PM
Bird and DW were on vacation? I wish we knew that

Jermaniac
08-14-2006, 09:42 PM
WTF Are they doing on vacation when we are trying to get the biggest FA left on the market? Go on vacation after you get him fools.

Just say YES already.

grace
08-14-2006, 09:43 PM
Interviewer: So Larry, what did you do on your vacation.

Larry: Me and Donnie just sat back and watched the internet explode waiting for the Harrington deal to get done. That thing on PD where the little smilie jumps off a building--funniest :censored: I've ever seen.

Interviewer: So when do you expect the deal to come through?

Larry: When Donnie lets me go on TV and say "I got-r-done." That's funny right there.

Interviewer: The network would like to apologize. We were led to believe we were interviewing Larry Bird. It seems Larry The Cable guy has led us astray.

vapacersfan
08-14-2006, 09:44 PM
I think some of you are taking that "vacation" comment a little to literally

Bball
08-14-2006, 10:24 PM
I think some of you are taking that "vacation" comment a little to literally

It looked like a serious comment to me. :shrug:

I'll be glad when this whole episode is over one way or the other. I'm pretty numb to it. If we get Harrington or don't get Harrington, I'm not sure it matters all that much. In fact, after the honeymoon is over it might even hurt. OTOH, at least we would have a viable option if JO went down and it increases our flexibility with things we can do with the roster down the road.

I'm already marking this season up to a transition year. There'll be setbacks... experiments... hopefully some player growth... and maybe by the AS break we'll start seeing a picture develop of just where we are and where we're headed. It might not be pretty... and it might end up a fun ride if Carlisle can re-invent himself and this team can rededicate itself. But Harrington or not, we're not going to be contending for anything this season. That's not what this season is going to be about.

-Bball

Since86
08-15-2006, 09:20 AM
How in the world have they been on vacation for a week, when this guy has been posting "updates" during that time?

He's either out of the loop, and just got in, or vacation doesn't really mean vacation to him. Either way, he's got me confused.

rexnom
08-15-2006, 09:22 AM
I dont think vacation means that they shut off their blackberries, folks.

imawhat
08-15-2006, 12:38 PM
JO shoots jumpers WHEN the defense packs it in and leaves him wide open. His preference is the post - it's what he lives and dies by. Does he sometimes get on a roll and shoot too many jumpers? Sure - but he can in no way be characterized as a jump shooter like you have.

I don't think he's characterizing him as a jump shooter. He's saying that he's criticized for taking too many jump shots.


And if we're discussing the 03-04 season, that was before he even became consistent with his jump shot.

2001-2002




Artest took and made more 3-pointers per game than Granger ever has (in his one season).

Ron Artest is much more of a 3-point shooter than Granger. Now I expect Granger will become more of a 3-pt threat eventually, but he hasn't been.


Your definition makes Antoine Walker more of a 3-point shooter than Granger, just like Artest, but not better.




If you have no 3-pt threat and all five defenders are within the arc, there won't be any cutting to the basket because there's no room. There also won't be much of a post game from JO - the NJ series last spring showed that much.

I agree that it's not good to have no long-range shooters on the floor, but I'd consider Harrington/Granger/Jackson as much of a long-range threat as the starters on the Pistons '03-'04 team. Just saying it can be done, though I think the Pacers might have some problems if we don't pick someone up in a trade.

Bball
08-15-2006, 12:44 PM
I stuck this in another thread but it probably should go here as well. Very little new here other than Donnie says he's talking to the Simons. Also he says "We're back now..." which could imply they really were on vacation (for those that questioned Sekou's comment about it).



Pacers anticipate movement in Harrington talks


By Mike Wells
Mike.wells@indystar.com

Add a day to the saga surrounding the Indiana Pacers' attempt to acquire forward Al Harrington from the Atlanta Hawks.

Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh said Monday he expects some type of "breakthrough" this week in negotiations for a sign-and-trade deal for Harrington, who spent his first six seasons in Indiana.

"It's at that point where it has to get done or it doesn't get done," Walsh said.

Walsh talked Monday with team owners Mel and Herb Simon, and they'll talk again today.

If a deal is reached, Harrington will sign a six-year, $57 million deal with Atlanta, then be shipped to the Pacers along with center John Edwards. The Pacers will give Atlanta their $7.5 million trade exception and a future first-round draft pick.

The Pacers have been the front-runner to acquire Harrington, but talks slowed because he switched agents.

"We're back and dealing with it now," Walsh said. "We expect some type of breakthrough this week -- at least that's what I'm hoping."

"We're just waiting for them to tell us what they want to do," Hawks general manager Billy Knight told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060815/SPORTS04/608150389/-1/ZONES04

bulldog
08-15-2006, 01:02 PM
What someone said about everyone waiting for Tellem to become official makes a lot of sense, the guy does have some leverage and they're probably just giving him a little respect, letting him be a major part of the negotiations. However, I'm don't think he'll try to swing any kind of outside deal for Al because the interest just isn't there.

sportsmusicxboxpacer
08-15-2006, 01:08 PM
:censored: get it over with already:censored:

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2006, 01:19 PM
If you have no 3-pt threat and all five defenders are within the arc, there won't be any cutting to the basket because there's no room. There also won't be much of a post game from JO - the NJ series last spring showed that much.
Your innocent youth is touching, I didn't realize you don't remember the pre-3pt line era in the NBA. Amazingly teams did still manage to score inside before the 3 line. I think one post guy even scored 100 one time despite there being no room.

And guys like Rick Barry and George Gervin did manage to cut to the basket pretty well.


There also won't be much of a post game from JO - the NJ series last spring showed that much.Um, Granger shot over 50% from 3 in that series and JO had one of the greatest big man games of all time (statistically) for the win in game 3 where Peja went 3-7 in 25 minutes and went ZERO for ONE from 3pt and the team was 4-15 (27%) from 3.

Granger 3-5 from 3 in game 2 LOSS
Granger 2-2 from 3 in game 4 LOSS
Granger 3-4 from 3 in game 6 LOSS

And to make your point look really awful, not only did Granger drop the 3 in game 6, but AJ was able to CUT TO THE BASKET and score inside the arc at will. Yet JO still had a sub-par game.

The correlation between the 3 ball and JO going off in that Nets series is basically opposite of what you say it showed. This from the guy that had to dismiss me as making stuff up. You are truly an unpleasant poster.


JO shoots jumpers WHEN the defense packs it in and leaves him wide open.This is not true. The Pacers run a series of SET PLAYS, as in you didn't watch them if you don't realize this, in which JO worked the elbow pick and stayed there during the play. Often the play resulted in a kick-back to him for the CATCH AND SHOOT, not the "see if 3 guys are in the paint and then shoot".

JO faces up, period. He does not like to pound it down like some fans misremember and I had to rip people a lot last year for saying just this. His ball possession time is not a black hole, typically he goes to a pass or shot within 2-3 seconds. He does his lane runner, the toward baseline turnaround jumper, or faces up and jab steps for the lane runner OR the jumper.

It was FRED and JACK who held the ball too long looking for a move, often 6-8 seconds at a time, which killed plays.



Try, say, game 6.
It's not about MAKES, its about PCT of ATTEMPTS, as in where on the floor his shots are taken, what type of shots those are. EIGHT of 14 takes in game 6 were from OUTSIDE THE PAINT. And that's the game you picked. Try clicking on the shot chart next time before you make my point for me.

Bball
08-15-2006, 01:35 PM
What someone said about everyone waiting for Tellem to become official makes a lot of sense, .

It makes a lot of sense except it has been said he can still negotiate the deal as long as all the parties don't have a problem with that. So I haven't heard a good reason to wait on him unless it puts his fee in jeopardy.

-Bball

sportsmusicxboxpacer
08-15-2006, 01:41 PM
:notlisten

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2006, 01:59 PM
For DK who thinks JO is back to basket, low block player...

Game 6 - 1st quarter (via Tivo)

11:10 - JO post, turns baseline on triple team and looks to pass across lane, travels

10:45 - JO sits at the elbow the entire play, doesn't touch the ball

10:16 - JO takes the pass at the arc (rt. lane), hands to Jack and sets the screen, drops to right elbow and takes pass, immediately faces up, gets a brief double, VC clears baseline and JO follows him right in to the basket off the drive (fouled)

9:00 - JO spends 2 trips out of the play on the weakside mid-lane

8:45 - AJ shot (set play), JO was going for rebound position only the entire brief time (quick shot)

8:03 - JO catches high right elbow, immediately faces up, dumps to Jack in the low post who stays back to basket, kicks to Granger for the 3 (make) with JO moved to the left elbow at the time

7:25 - AC feeds JO about 4 feet outside the mid-lane (right), JO faces up AS HE CATCHES THE BALL (swings the catch into a turn), fakes left, 360 spin right on drive to lane baseline, layup

6:40 - JO out of play weakside midlane (Granger gets AC miss for basket)

6:00 - JO out of play weakside midlane, does flash into midlane for post but AC drives right instead and loses ball

5:15 - JO out of play weakside left as AC misses mid-jumper

4:26 - JO posts midleft outside lane, Jack drives off of him outside left, Jack switches past him again and uses JO for a screen, hits

4:00 - JO sets pick for AJ at the 3pt line middle, AJ drives left for layup, leaving JO farther from the basket than anyone (due to where he set the pick)

3:25 - JO cuts across midlane to post up right side about 4 feet off lane. Granger can't make the feeder pass and drives left to lane instead, makes the layup

2:55 - JO takes same high right post spot and AJ immediately drives like Granger just did, basket and foul on Kidd

2:17 - JO, Granger and Jack run a beautiful set of baseline picks while AJ and AC rotate the ball on the arc till JO ends up with great low block position, Danny (who came out after his last pick) easily feeds him with a foot on the charge line, he FACES with a turn baseline and goes up for the short jumper, shot goes straight up on what looks like an elbow foul by Jefferson, maybe a tip block by Cliff

Its the first time that JO has caught the ball on the low block. His first post early in the quarter was off the low block a couple of feet and he never got to the lane.

1:45 - JO pushes his man (literally) in the lane and drives him down, AJ works the dribble behind this and uses him as a screen to get the easy layup straight down the lane

1:04 - JO posts midlane right, no go, rotate ball and JO cross lane, Nets mis-switch when Jack comes baseline to arc to take the pass leaving JO free to drop to the paint for the pass from Jack. JO turns high and takes a runner across the lane (semi-hook), misses...btw, he catches at 9, shot on rim by 7.5, ie not a black-hole type

0:34 - Harrison in for JO


So in the first of the game YOU picked, DK, JO has NEVER played back to basket pound-down. He has totally faced up about 90% of the time he caught the ball even if he was posting up. He spent most plays 7-15 feet away from the basket doing his part of the offense, including looking for the plays coming to him.

I'd do the rest but why overkill it. He takes 4 shots from outside the lane in the 2nd to go with what I just described, and 3 of 4 outside the lane in the 3rd. All those plays where he was sitting on the elbow or out at the arc? Those become jumpers for JO as options on the play, options they just didn't use in the first because Danny and AJ got to the rim and didn't need to pass out.

rexnom
08-15-2006, 02:14 PM
um...how about them apples?

Destined4Greatness
08-17-2006, 02:31 PM
Lol i Just read that JO typically passes or shoots after 2 or 3 secs. Thats funny, of course alot of stuff that isn't true is funny

Anthem
08-17-2006, 03:19 PM
Lol i Just read that JO typically passes or shoots after 2 or 3 secs. Thats funny, of course alot of stuff that isn't true is funny
Well, he did make quicker moves this year than he did in the past.

That said, I'm not sure I'd call it "typical" but I do believe he's at his best when he does it. That's part of what I liked in Zeke's domain... he encouraged Jermaine to make quick moves with the ball. Carlisle might want that as well, but all of his talk about a deliberate, careful offense has tended to make JO act more slowly.