PDA

View Full Version : future of JO as a pacer



Steve
07-28-2006, 09:48 AM
This is just idle speculation.... but does the presumed acquisition of Al Harrington potentially make JO more tradeable in the future?

purdue101
07-28-2006, 09:50 AM
IMO, this is JO's "make or break" year with indy. if he has a year similar to 03/04, stays relatively healthy, and the pacers compete in the east....i think you'll see him in indy for the long haul.

if he has an injury plagued season and/or our team self destructs again....he'll probably be gone next summer.

blanket
07-28-2006, 09:54 AM
abso-f'in-lutely

Trader Joe
07-28-2006, 10:00 AM
Hell yeah. JO has to produce back at the MVP level this year or he is gone next offseason.

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 10:23 AM
Yeah, cause our team has no need for an all-star post player if he can't be an MVP-caliber post player?

:huh:

Bball
07-28-2006, 10:25 AM
If JO becomes expendable it won't be the acquisition of Harrington that does it...
JO himself is who would make JO expendable. Harrington would simply be the backup plan/insurance policy.

-Bball

Unclebuck
07-28-2006, 10:32 AM
Yes Al makes JO more expendable.


I'd call the Clippers and offer JO for Kaman and Livingston

D-BONE
07-28-2006, 10:45 AM
I would say yes JO would be more expendable from the standpoint that you have three other guys at least (Al, DG, and Foster) that can log minutes at the 4 spot. Doesn't mean we aggresively shop him automatically, does give us the option if the TPTB are not happy with his performance or the general direction of the team.

My 2 cents on JO for what it's worth:

-Top flight post scorer and shot blocker

-Questionable leadership/#1 option ability

-Generally agreeable off-court persona

Bball
07-28-2006, 10:51 AM
I would say yes JO would be more expendable from the standpoint that you have three other guys at least (Al, DG, and Foster) that can log minutes at the 4 spot. Doesn't mean we aggresively shop him automatically, does give us the option if the TPTB are not happy with his performance or the general direction of the team.

My 2 cents on JO for what it's worth:

-Top flight post scorer and shot blocker

-Questionable leadership/#1 option ability

-Generally agreeable off-court persona

Paid way too much compared to production (on a team that can't afford to pay that type of money and not be packing the arena and keeping the fans believing the team is contending).

He has to come thru and the team needs to put him in the best possible position to succeed. They can't allow his value continue to drop, and going into another season with Carlisle and JO together is a big gamble.

-Bball

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 11:12 AM
Yes, yes it does. Because it gives us a young proven commodity in Al that is locked up for the Future at a reasonable pay scale(Unlike JO)

A front court of

Granger/Al/Harrison could potentially be very very dangerous.

For JO to stay he has to have stat line of

20PPG
45%FG
10+RPG

Most of all hes got to play in the post. And we have to win a Playoff series. I don't care if its the heat we have to play, that means he didn't perform during the year and get us higher enough too bad. Minimum second round, and if we play a team that we are better than we have to beat them.

Roy Munson
07-28-2006, 11:34 AM
For JO to stay he has to have stat line of

20PPG
45%FG
10+RPG



There should be no individual stat quotas on JO. That's not what is important. Wins are important. If the team is successful and JO contribute to that success, than the stats will take care of themselves.

It appears that the Pacers are building (actually, re-building) the team around JO and he's going to be here for a while. What the team really needs to do is to find an Alpha-dog type player, not named Jermaine, who will clearly be the teams best player and dominant personality. I think that's what it will take for them to become a legitimate contender.

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 11:40 AM
Can Al be an alpha-dog type? He can - personality wise.

I'm not sure he can do what you've asked for on the court for 82 games. I like Al but Al's not a top-twenty (or higher) player.

I'm looking forward to the improved camaraderie, though. Maybe that will allow JO to grow more comfortable in his leader role. Especially since the guys that seemed to be second-guessing him are in Dallas.

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 11:51 AM
There should be no individual stat quotas on JO. That's not what is important. Wins are important. If the team is successful and JO contribute to that success, than the stats will take care of themselves.

It appears that the Pacers are building (actually, re-building) the team around JO and he's going to be here for a while. What the team really needs to do is to find an Alpha-dog type player, not named Jermaine, who will clearly be the teams best player and dominant personality. I think that's what it will take for them to become a legitimate contender.

JO is not willing to take a partnership we saw that with artest, why the hell would he accept taking a backseat.

And yes there need to be individual stat quotas. Along with whether or not he helps the team. Becuase frankly the last 2 years have shown us. He could help the team alot by sitting on the bench. Because the team wins more games without him than with him. He has to play and help the team.

We have shipped out the guy in Austin who actually was a leader off the court unlike JO. And we have shipped out the only reliable leader we had on the court in AJ. JO has to take up these reigns and be successful or hes gone.

Roy Munson
07-28-2006, 11:57 AM
JO is not willing to take a partnership we saw that with artest, why the hell would he accept taking a backseat.

And yes there need to be individual stat quotas. Along with whether or not he helps the team. Becuase frankly the last 2 years have shown us. He could help the team alot by sitting on the bench. Because the team wins more games without him than with him. He has to play and help the team.

We have shipped out the guy in Austin who actually was a leader off the court unlike JO. And we have shipped out the only reliable leader we had on the court in AJ. JO has to take up these reigns and be successful or hes gone.

The fact that he didn't want to share with Artest doesn't mean he doesn't want to share with anybody. I imagine that there are a lot of NBA players who wouldn't want to share with a knucklehead like Artest.

I think it's wrong to think that Croshere was a leader off the court. For a person to be a leader, someone has to follow him, and I didn't see many Pacers who looked like they were following Croshere. He might have been articulate, and he might not have been afraid to speak up, but those things don't make him a leader unless he inspires his teammates to follow and act a certain way.

Steve
07-28-2006, 11:57 AM
I agree that Al is not a top 20 guy. But he could give the flexibility to then move JO (if TPTB decide that is in the best interest) to get a top talent at a different position (e.g. shooting guard).

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 12:01 PM
If they are going to move JO they shouldn't get a Top Player. They should get prospects. Theres no player in the league we could get for JO who would lead us to the Finals let alone a CHampionship. But getting 2 prospects a draft pick and an expiring contract. Would put us in the position to possibly win a championship in 3 or 4 years.

Roy, Cro was the leader off the court. He was the one calling players only meetings. Not JO. And JO should have been the one to do it.

Anthem
07-28-2006, 12:01 PM
I think it's wrong to think that Croshere was a leader off the court. For a person to be a leader, someone has to follow him, and I didn't see many Pacers who looked like they were following Croshere. He might have been articulate, and he might not have been afraid to speak up, but those things don't make him a leader unless he inspires his teammates to follow and act a certain way.
This is a pretty good point. Just because we wanted the guys to follow Cro doesn't mean they did.

Jay Ohh
07-28-2006, 12:05 PM
JO is going to be the scapegoat no matter what happens. If we get Al and Jermaine ends up getting hurt guarding people now who will be 50-100 pounds over him playing out of position, and bangs with them down low then it's his fault. If nobody guards the 3 point line because we have no shooters then it's his fault. If we don't get past the second round then it's his fault. If we suck at rebounding it's his fault. If your girlfriend dumps you then it's his fault.

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 12:07 PM
There's a lot more to "leading" than calling team/ player meetings.

What proof do we have that JO never called a team/ player meeting? Just because JO didn't go pounding his chest to the press about, "I called a team meeting" does not prove they did or did not occur.

I generally agreed with everything Croshere had to say, but I wonder of TPTB felt that Austin's outspokenness (and perhaps AJ's outspokenness) were actually obstacles to JO's leadership efforts and were fracturing an already fragile team.

This team might have the most "I'm going to do it my way, the hell with the team" guys in the league. Leadership isn't easy when you've got self-centered jerks like Artest trying to engage in a power struggle. And by the time Artest was gone, there were plenty of guys with battle scars and this team needed to stop and have a healing session. But it was Janaury, and there were still four more months to go in the regular season.

indyman37
07-28-2006, 12:10 PM
if he doesn't produce anything this year, we could always try to trade him for the #1 pick next year.

GREG ODEN!

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 12:11 PM
JO is going to be the scapegoat no matter what happens. If we get Al and Jermaine ends up getting hurt guarding people now who will be 50-100 pounds over him playing out of position, and bangs with them down low then it's his fault. If nobody guards the 3 point line because we have no shooters then it's his fault. If we don't get past the second round then it's his fault. If we suck at rebounding it's his fault. If your girlfriend dumps you then it's his fault.

OH BULL, JO has never been held accountable for anything. We go on a 16-7 season saving run when he got hurt after he had led us to below .500 record and people still were like "WE NEED JO TO WIN"

JO's hype and contract have protected him from ever being blamed. Last year Bird said JO had to be a leader or he would be moved and that was bull. JO is not accountable by the Organization or the fanbase.

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 12:12 PM
if he doesn't produce anything this year, we could always try to trade him for the #1 pick next year.

GREG ODEN!

One overrated Big man for another.

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 12:14 PM
This is a pretty good point. Just because we wanted the guys to follow Cro doesn't mean they did.

And, to slightly re-phrase this,

Just because we wanted the players to follow Croshere's lead doesn't mean that management wanted the players to follow Croshere (away from JO).

You can say all the right things and still do it in the wrong way - and perhaps that's the lesson here. Croshere may have been saying to the press what the fans needed/ wanted to hear but it may have undermined the "team."

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 12:22 PM
OH BULL, JO has never been held accountable for anything. We go on a 16-7 season saving run when he got hurt after he had led us to below .500 record and people still were like "WE NEED JO TO WIN"

JO's hype and contract have protected him from ever being blamed. Last year Bird said JO had to be a leader or he would be moved and that was bull. JO is not accountable by the Organization or the fanbase.

JO led us to a sub-0.500 record?

That's preposterous.

I'll tell you why I've given JO more slack than I might otherwise... I still blame management for holding onto Artest for too long, poisoning the team. I blame management for stockpiling injury-prone, Artest-poisoned players around JO that do not compliment his game on the court, either. And I blame Rick for building a lousy rotation out of that mismatched stockpile.

I'm willing to withhold judgement on JO until he gets a fair opportunity to lead a team.

I've never been to a Timberwolves forum. But I wonder if KG gets this much venom? Because he makes more money and had done even less as a leader/ playoff performer than JO, with a team was really was built around him.

Bball
07-28-2006, 12:22 PM
IMHO... JO cannot lead. The reason other 'leaders' keep creeping up is because JO fails in that category and creates a vacuum that others try to fill. It's a natural evolution.

JO cannot stand in the way of that and needs to take a backseat. JO should never utter the words "I'm the leader of this team" ever again. He can proclaim it all he wants but until he truly earns it, spouting it is just another sign he's anything but a leader. If a better leader emerges before such time that JO 'gets it' then so be it.

-Bball

Since86
07-28-2006, 12:25 PM
One overrated Big man for another.

I wonder what you thought about LeBron, prior to him playing in the NBA.

Players at their caliber don't get the attention for no reason. Other players that were big that didn't make it, I.E. Lenny Cook, didn't have the following and already had glimpses of what their future would hold. I say that because Cook got outplayed twice at the ABCD camp his senior year by LeBron, who was only a soph.

Oden has won 2national championships, has played against every ranked HSler in the nation, and always comes out on top. He gets everyones best shot, absorbs it, and then busts them in the head with his knees after he's dunking over them.

He D-O-M-I-N-A-T-E-D the best freshman post player the ACC has seen in a while, in Tyler Hansborough, and also dominated another freshman all-acc in Josh McRoberts. Both of whom would of been lottery picks this year if they left.

He's resumee is far and beyond than "overrated." When every basketball expert in the nation is in agreement that this is the best big man since Kareem, I doubt he's going to bust.

Jay Ohh
07-28-2006, 12:25 PM
OH BULL, JO has never been held accountable for anything. We go on a 16-7 season saving run when he got hurt after he had led us to below .500 record and people still were like "WE NEED JO TO WIN"

JO's hype and contract have protected him from ever being blamed. Last year Bird said JO had to be a leader or he would be moved and that was bull. JO is not accountable by the Organization or the fanbase.

Post 8,942 talking about the same exact ****. People don't blame him? Funny, maybe you should try reading. Look around you, then get back to me. Ron went crazy destroying any chance we had at a title run, but JO didn't lead us. It's his fault. If he had lead Ron everything would be okay, and the season would be saved.

Last time he had the chance and talent to lead: 61 wins

Bball
07-28-2006, 12:28 PM
JO led us to a sub-0.500 record?

That's preposterous.

I'll tell you why I've given JO more slack than I might otherwise... I still blame management for holding onto Artest for too long, poisoning the team. I blame management for stockpiling injury-prone, Artest-poisoned players around JO that do not compliment his game on the court, either. And I blame Rick for building a lousy rotation out of that mismatched stockpile.

I'm willing to withhold judgement on JO until he gets a fair opportunity to lead a team.

I've never been to a Timberwolves forum. But I wonder if KG gets this much venom? Because he makes more money and had done even less as a leader/ playoff performer than JO, with a team was really was built around him.

I believe JO already had that chance. In 2004 Artest was sent to the sidelines and JO had a clear chance to take this team and make it his. He failed. Then 2005 arrived and the situation again presented itself only this time JO should've had experience on his side and a better understanding of what he needed to do. He failed again.

Without Artest he has been exposed.

We're going to be one lucky team to find a 1A talent that will take a backseat to JO but still be the engine of the team. I believe that is why management stuck with Artest... not because they fell in love with talent as much as they realized without him JO was going to be exposed. ...And to replace Artest was going to be tough because who wants to play second fiddle to a second fiddle making first violin money?

-Bball

blanket
07-28-2006, 12:39 PM
If Mullin can trade Murphy for anything of worth, then I think we'll see a JO to Warriors trade next summer. Maybe JO for Richardson, Dunleavy, Diogu or Biedrins and a 1st round pick? Or JO for Davis, Diogu and 2 1st round picks?

ABADays
07-28-2006, 12:40 PM
And, to slightly re-phrase this,

Just because we wanted the players to follow Croshere's lead doesn't mean that management wanted the players to follow Croshere (away from JO).

You can say all the right things and still do it in the wrong way - and perhaps that's the lesson here. Croshere may have been saying to the press what the fans needed/ wanted to hear but it may have undermined the "team."

Wow! I have to believe that is the first time I've ever seen Croshere and the word undermined in the same sentence.

Bball
07-28-2006, 12:42 PM
Wow! I have to believe that is the first time I've ever seen Croshere and the word undermined in the same sentence.

Jay's defense of JO (and Tinsley) is reaching epic summer proportions ;)

-Bball

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 12:47 PM
The bashing of JO and Tinsley has reached epic Bball proportions. :tongue:

Bball
07-28-2006, 12:55 PM
The bashing of JO and Tinsley has reached epic Bball proportions. :tongue:


I'm not really trying to bash JO. I just think he's failed to live up to expectations and there needs to be a total rethinking in management and coaching as how best to address the existing reality (his production vs salary hit) compared to what they might've initially planned.

Tinsley... You could call that bashing. I want him gone. Doritos, draft picks, whatever...

-Bball

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 02:05 PM
I don't think JO has had a fair, legit chance.

What exactly did JO fail at during 2004 and 2005. For all we know, he's done exactly the right things and there were some players unwilling to defer/ follow.

It appears management is trying to correct some things that looked good on paper but didn't pan out very well.

I don't understand the need/ urgency to rush to judgment on JO here.

Its clear the entire team was a disaster from the CEO on down. But by your logic, since JO couldn't single-handedly keep them in the ECFs or better, he's an utter failure.

Its no wonder Jermaniac has to take the "JO > God" position with all the over-the-top criticism of him.

This team never really was a contender, that was all on-paper only. I'm sorry that too many of you believed the hype. JO probably got the team to overachieve the past couple years by even qualifying for the playoffs.

Bball
07-28-2006, 02:22 PM
I don't think JO has had a fair, legit chance.

What exactly did JO fail at during 2004 and 2005. For all we know, he's done exactly the right things and there were some players unwilling to defer/ follow.

It appears management is trying to correct some things that looked good on paper but didn't pan out very well.

I don't understand the need/ urgency to rush to judgment on JO here.

Its clear the entire team was a disaster from the CEO on down. But by your logic, since JO couldn't single-handedly keep them in the ECFs or better, he's an utter failure.

Its no wonder Jermaniac has to take the "JO > God" position with all the over-the-top criticism of him.

This team never really was a contender, that was all on-paper only. I'm sorry that too many of you believed the hype. JO probably got the team to overachieve the past couple years by even qualifying for the playoffs.


You act like I am saying JO needs traded for a package of Fritos and a coke. I'm not saying that. But I don't think the team can be built with him as the cornerstone of the franchise any longer so both parties need to rethink their relationship and what they expect from each other.

OTOH, I would take that bag of Fritos and a coke for Tinsley. :tongue:

-Bball

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 02:28 PM
No, I'm saying its too early to decide whether or not he can/ should be the cornerstone of the franchise.

Unfortunately, keeping Rick around (with the risk of the team reverting to slogball) may prevent that decision from being made for another year.

Let's see what he can do when he slims back down and plays with teammates that compliment him and are willing to follow him.

If *that* doesn't work, then your comments are valid.

You may be predicting* that it won't work, and time may prove you to be right (just as I was right all along that Artest must be moved), but its really just a wild *** guess because everything you're basing your current opinion on is false premise.

CableKC
07-28-2006, 02:29 PM
Yeah, cause our team has no need for an all-star post player if he can't be an MVP-caliber post player?

:huh:

We do need an All-Star Post player......much like any other team does. But if it appears that we can't accomplish certain goals with JONeal at the helm this upcoming season...then we have to move on and begin rebuilding the team.

Having a player like JONeal....despite his all-star status.....will become a detrement because...at some point.....how much he can do and how far he can take us is going to be overshadowed by how much he is earning on his contract and how much that contract affects our ability to acquire players to improve our roster.

With the way that the roster is starting to take shape.....I'm willing to see what he can do for one more season. But if we can't reach the 2nd round of the playoffs this upcoming season with the roster that we have built and the new offensive direction that we are taking.....I would hope that TPTB has not fallen with his talent so much that they are blind to the likelihood that JONeal maybe only capable of taking us so far.

CableKC
07-28-2006, 02:37 PM
I don't think JO has had a fair, legit chance.

What exactly did JO fail at during 2004 and 2005. For all we know, he's done exactly the right things and there were some players unwilling to defer/ follow.

It appears management is trying to correct some things that looked good on paper but didn't pan out very well.

I don't understand the need/ urgency to rush to judgment on JO here.

Its clear the entire team was a disaster from the CEO on down. But by your logic, since JO couldn't single-handedly keep them in the ECFs or better, he's an utter failure.

Its no wonder Jermaniac has to take the "JO > God" position with all the over-the-top criticism of him.

This team never really was a contender, that was all on-paper only. I'm sorry that too many of you believed the hype. JO probably got the team to overachieve the past couple years by even qualifying for the playoffs.

To your point....you're right....there is very little that JONeal could have done to prevent what happened over the last 2 seasons with the whole Artest Brawl and the Artest incident and therefore should not shoulder all the blame and any future blame.

But can we blame him if the drama continues to happens again this season?

Probably not....cuz...just like previous seasons...its wasn't his fault.

I just hope and pray :pray: that we can finally go through a single-season without drama to truly see what JONeal and Carlsle can do.

If nothing major happens...and we make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs...then I am fine with keeping him.....injury filled season or not.

But if nothing major happens...and we do lose in the 1st round...its time to look elsewhere.

Ultimate Frisbee
07-28-2006, 02:57 PM
Yes Al makes JO more expendable.


I'd call the Clippers and offer JO for Kaman and Livingston

I dig that deal... Kaman= very solid center (a rareity) and Livingston= very good young PG who only gets better and better

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 03:41 PM
JO has had plenty of chances. And to say he isn't partly to blame for the havoc is just a copt out. Hes been going down injured on a bi-weekly basis screwing up chemistry. He punched a fan getting himself suspended. He refused to share the limelight with Artest. He has contributed just as much as anyone not named Artest to the chaos we have had the last 2 years.

rexnom
07-28-2006, 03:42 PM
I dig that deal... Kaman= very solid center (a rareity) and Livingston= very good young PG who only gets better and better
Only problem is that the Clippers would never do that deal. There are maybe 15 guys that have a higher trade value than Livingston...not saying he should be valued that much...but he is.

I don't think JO has one season. I think he has to show we are moving in the right direction. If we win from 45-50 games and do OK in the playoffs then we are moving in the right direction. I think we are in a transition period right now. JO doesn't need to lead this team to 60 wins or anything.

Also, you can question JO's leadership all you like but all I know is that he has become the symbol for Pacer basketball now. He goes on all the sports shows and talks about us, he represents us at all-star games, this is who people think about when you say Pacers. Not Danny Granger. And I'm fairly sure the players will follow him because now there is no doubt. He is the longest tenured Pacer and he is the best Pacer. And there are few guys in the NBA as liked as JO. Even the whole posing after dunks and blocks that people don't like...crowds eat that up. That stuff helps our team. Energizes everyone.

Another thing, does anyone here realize just how good JO is? JO's skill level is closer to Jermaniac's perspective than the average poster on this board...which is absolutely ridiculous. He is so underappreciated here. If we trade him for prospects we would be extremely lucky if one of those prospects becomes an all-star just once, let alone many times like JO. And btw, as much as we all love Danny...he and we will be lucky if he is ever as good as JO.

And frankly, I don't think he has a good team in Indiana outside of 2003 and 2004. If we traded JO for Dirk, Brand, Amare or TD how huge do you think the dropoff would be in those teams? (Especially if those teams were more built around JO).

As for JO being number one...he can do it, but he needs help. He's never had help. When he did, we won 61 games and reached the ECF. Look at the aforementioned big men...legit number ones? Maybe. Probably. Still though, Dirk has Jet, Howard, and Stack. Brand has Cassell and Maggette as well as a legit shooter in Mobley and a legit big man in Kaman. Amare had Marion and Nash when they won 60+ (and they were even more successful without him last season). TD has Parker and Ginobili (and a solid bunch of role players that fit him perfectly). What does JO have? Come on guys. I am getting a little tired of the JO bashing. It's like we're bored and we have nothing else to do. Can't we bash Billy Knight instead?

rexnom
07-28-2006, 06:47 PM
So...in conclusion...I hope JO is a Pacer for a long time.

Sollozzo
07-28-2006, 06:52 PM
He's resumee is far and beyond than "overrated." When every basketball expert in the nation is in agreement that this is the best big man since Kareem, I doubt he's going to bust.


I agree that he is going to be great, but it's a tad bit extreme for guys to already have him ahead of the likes of Shaquille O'Neal.

SoupIsGood
07-28-2006, 06:55 PM
This is just idle speculation.... but does the presumed acquisition of Al Harrington potentially make JO more tradeable in the future?

No.

BlueNGold
07-28-2006, 07:02 PM
I think it is less likely the Pacers will trade JO after getting Al...even though they both are primarily PF's. This move was about chemistry as much as basketball. Now, if we picked up Drew Gooden I would expect JO to be traded...even tho Gooden is a scrub compared to JO.

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 07:04 PM
I think it is less likely the Pacers will trade JO after getting Al...even though they both are primarily PF's. This move was about chemistry as much as basketball. Now, if we picked up Drew Gooden I would expect JO to be traded...even tho Gooden is a scrub compared to JO.

Most players are scrubs to JO, but most players also play more games than him. Its not a catch 22, but similiar I suppose in some ways.

Ron who?
07-28-2006, 11:07 PM
I believe JO already had that chance. In 2004 Artest was sent to the sidelines and JO had a clear chance to take this team and make it his. He failed. Then 2005 arrived and the situation again presented itself only this time JO should've had experience on his side and a better understanding of what he needed to do. He failed again.

Without Artest he has been exposed.

We're going to be one lucky team to find a 1A talent that will take a backseat to JO but still be the engine of the team. I believe that is why management stuck with Artest... not because they fell in love with talent as much as they realized without him JO was going to be exposed. ...And to replace Artest was going to be tough because who wants to play second fiddle to a second fiddle making first violin money?

-Bball



wow... i think during my short time on being on PD i have found my self agreeing with bball way too much.. its like i dont have my own opinion nemore... well anyways lets get to the point...

JO is a great player but has never been a leader which definitely jeopardizes him being on this team next year... hes gotta perform or hes gone because people are starting to see his insignificance as a Go-to/only player... not saying he is bad just that he needs somebody else.. he isnt a kobe bryant.. he wont run a team by himself

Ron who?
07-28-2006, 11:11 PM
Last time he had the chance and talent to lead: 61 wins


thats funny because if i remember correctly reggie was the mental leader of that team was he not?

Naptown_Seth
07-29-2006, 02:39 AM
The bashing of JO and Tinsley has reached epic Bball proportions. :tongue:
I agree. It's summer and all this freedom to express yourself w/out looking like a :dunce: is turning this place into a soccer riot.

Give us some results so at least one side can win some of these debates.
:argue:

I don't care if its me that looks stupid even, just some flipping resolution would be nice.



BTW, its possible that not every player is happy with some of the management (not coach, mgmt). So some players might want out even more than the team wants to move them, at least if they don't keep closer to home when the team needs them.

Haggard
07-29-2006, 06:28 AM
JO will be a pacer. Every time the pacers underachieve it will be JO's name listed as being on the block. Look at the AI scenario this season. The 76ers underachieved and everyone quickly started getting on the trade AI bandwagon. JO will stay a pacer and AI a sixer.
The pacers have taken a huge step in the right direction by off loading Croshere, Peja, AJ and Jones (I like him as a player but he doesn't stand up when its needed).

AesopRockOn
07-29-2006, 07:47 AM
Of course JO's name will be there; he has called himself the leader of the team. After Reggie retired, JO was supposed to be *the* franchise player, the rock of our team. He did not perform up to the expectations that he, the fans, and the management placed, due to injury, not getting along with teammates/ coach, whatever. Many seem to think that it's now or never for JO. If he isn't *good,* then he is traded. But what if he is *good?* At that point this discussion becomes more broad because we will have to get the 1A player without having much to trade unless it is Al or Danger, the only players we or anyone else likes. The answer to the question is no because Harrington is not that good. But JO, even though he is an All-Star caliber player like Rex said, will become expendable in the eyes of management because Indy fans need a franchise player and solid playoff performances a la #31.

Will Galen
07-29-2006, 08:02 AM
This is just idle speculation.... but does the presumed acquisition of Al Harrington potentially make JO more tradeable in the future?

If JO doesn't have another MVP contender year . . .

This makes him more tradeable.
06-07] $18,084,000
07-08] $19,710,000
08-09] $21,352,500
09-10] $22,995,000

Bball
07-29-2006, 09:59 AM
If JO doesn't have another MVP contender year . . .

This makes him more tradeable.
06-07] $18,084,000
07-08] $19,710,000
08-09] $21,352,500
09-10] $22,995,000

Actually... if he was playing up to his contract and earning those $$$ nobody would consider trading him. And if he isn't playing up to and earning those numbers then they make him all but untradable.

If his stock falls again this season I don't know that he'd be tradable at all (And IMHO his stock is falling...at least in the media... Maybe GMs think differently).

-Bball

Destined4Greatness
07-29-2006, 05:14 PM
Exactly if JO has another injury plagued year where the Pacers have a better record in the games he sits out. We are going to be stuck with his underchieving overpaid self. Better off just trading him now for young talent and an expiring contract.

Are we going to win a Championship with him, NO
Are we going to win a championship with youth and an expiring contract, NO

So why not?

Jay Ohh
07-29-2006, 05:36 PM
thats funny because if i remember correctly reggie was the mental leader of that team was he not?

JO was the MVP of that team for a reason. Without him they don't win 61 games. He was the best player, and lead us to the best record.

Now let's see...That year, KG was the one who robbed JO. Yet if you think about it, wasn't Sam Cassel the one who lead him there? He never did anything before Casseldia arrived. You could say that about any veteran player, helping lead the team there.

Doesn't change the fact that you're only going to go as far as your best player takes you. When Jermaine had the talent around him, he got it done.

Destined4Greatness
07-29-2006, 05:42 PM
No JO was the MVP not the best player or leader fo the team.

Reggie wasn't as talented, but could lead. And Ron was a better player but his other issues lowered his value. Valuable =/=Best

Ron who?
07-30-2006, 12:28 AM
my point is that the team needs a leader which they do not have at this point...
Reggie WAS the leader... he left a void that has yet to be filled.... and read what i said.... MENTAL leader... he kept them in line he did what everything a leader is supposed to do