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View Full Version : Thoughts on Rick Carlisle being here next year



Jay Ohh
07-27-2006, 09:09 PM
Here are Jay Ohh's thoughts on him being here.


Given everything that's happened in the offseason, how the hell is he still even our coach? Let's just touch on a few reason why this could and will go terribly wrong.

Jamaal Tinsley- Keeping them both together just isn't smart. All conspiracy theopries aside, they just don't fit.

Rick's system-
Nobody likes Carlisles system because it's terrible. It might even be one of the main factors for all of the injuries. Let's see, there's a crapload of contact with his slow grind it out style, which can't be good for the human body. He insists, on pounding it down low into the post every time, making it easy to double JO taking its toll on him physically. Same could be said for our other players. I always heard the other announcers talking about how "physical"this Indiana team is. Well, there you have it. It's great how our players are the only ones taking the pounding having to play like this.

That doesn't even touch upon his actual coaching decisions. That's just the style. Players who have either been suspected or come out and say they don't like his style:

Players-

Tinsley- everyone always says he "fakes" these injuries because he doesn't like Rick
JO- Said he's rather play an uptempo game
Fred-Didn't like the style. Too slow paced, which isn't a surprise given what he does.
Ron- Hated it. Probably the main reason we lost him
Little Runus-Cried about how he was used all season long, and how the offense restricts him.

That's just off the top of my head. It bores his players giving them little to be excited about, since they know, every time what's going to happen. He had no control over guys last year. They didn't give any effort because they knew he was a ***** and won't take them out (example: Jack) How many times last year did he just keep chucking and Rick leaves him in? That's right, every single damn time. People wanna use the excuse, oh he did such a good job after the brawl and all of the problems he's had to deal with, like the injuries, (which he could actually be a big part of) and all the adversity. It's funny, because the way I remember it is Reggie carrying our sorry asses to the playoffs. This past year we barely made it, and it was pretty much just because the East sucked too bad for us not to. Rick didn't do jack ****.


So why keep him when we're going away from just about the only style he ever coaches? Because he's friends with Larry. That's just fantastic.

Hicks
07-27-2006, 09:32 PM
I have mixed feelings about Rick coming back. I don't think there's anyone necessarily better out there right now, though I wouldn't be upset if Rick Adelman came here. So I'm glad we're working with the best available. And Rick really does bring a lot of positives to the table.

But at the same time I'm worried that he's worn out his welcome, his social ineptitude will continue to wear on the players, and that he won't coach these players correctly.

Young
07-27-2006, 09:41 PM
Yeah Rick is a very good coach, better than what most of you think.

We have had a lot of problems with attitudes and injuries though but Rick has still done a great job.

Yet, I feel that a change is needed. We need someone to give these guys some tough love, even though that may be a downgrade from Rick, we need someone different in here.

AesopRockOn
07-27-2006, 09:47 PM
I have mixed feelings about Rick coming back. I don't think there's anyone necessarily better out there right now, though I wouldn't be upset if Rick Adelman came here. So I'm glad we're working with the best available. And Rick really does bring a lot of positives to the table.

But at the same time I'm worried that he's worn out his welcome, his social ineptitude will continue to wear on the players, and that he won't coach these players correctly.

Trudat^^

birdman
07-27-2006, 09:56 PM
I'd rather have Carlisle out of here, but as long as we don't run that same offense of his that everyone hates I'm OK with him being here. The players are obviously sick of Rick calling every play from the bench.

DisplacedKnick
07-27-2006, 10:10 PM
Here are Jay Ohh's thoughts on him being here.


Given everything that's happened in the offseason, how the hell is he still even our coach? Let's just touch on a few reason why this could and will go terribly wrong.

Jamaal Tinsley- Keeping them both together just isn't smart. All conspiracy theopries aside, they just don't fit.

Rick's system-
Nobody likes Carlisles system because it's terrible. It might even be one of the main factors for all of the injuries. Let's see, there's a crapload of contact with his slow grind it out style, which can't be good for the human body. He insists, on pounding it down low into the post every time, making it easy to double JO taking its toll on him physically. Same could be said for our other players. I always heard the other announcers talking about how "physical"this Indiana team is. Well, there you have it. It's great how our players are the only ones taking the pounding having to play like this.

That doesn't even touch upon his actual coaching decisions. That's just the style. Players who have either been suspected or come out and say they don't like his style:

Players-

Tinsley- everyone always says he "fakes" these injuries because he doesn't like Rick
JO- Said he's rather play an uptempo game
Fred-Didn't like the style. Too slow paced, which isn't a surprise given what he does.
Ron- Hated it. Probably the main reason we lost him
Little Runus-Cried about how he was used all season long, and how the offense restricts him.

That's just off the top of my head. It bores his players giving them little to be excited about, since they know, every time what's going to happen. He had no control over guys last year. They didn't give any effort because they knew he was a ***** and won't take them out (example: Jack) How many times last year did he just keep chucking and Rick leaves him in? That's right, every single damn time. People wanna use the excuse, oh he did such a good job after the brawl and all of the problems he's had to deal with, like the injuries, (which he could actually be a big part of) and all the adversity. It's funny, because the way I remember it is Reggie carrying our sorry asses to the playoffs. This past year we barely made it, and it was pretty much just because the East sucked too bad for us not to. Rick didn't do jack ****.


So why keep him when we're going away from just about the only style he ever coaches? Because he's friends with Larry. That's just fantastic.

There's almost nothing in this that I agree with.

Anybody who thinks that's the only style Rick coaches must have missed the Bird teams where he ran the offense AND his first year as head coach.

Rick coached the slow down grind-it-out style the last 2 seasons because that's what you do when your team is undermanned and doesn't have enough talent - you shorten the game, reduce the number of possessions and try to milk everything you can out of every possession.

If the Pacers get to where he was his first season talent-wise he'll coach that way - open up the offense and use the team's athleticism as an advantage. But if you don't have the athletes to match other teams, you slow it down.

As for discipline, I'll only repeat what I've said before. When management worships a player who singlehandedly destroyed one entire season and had a big part in ending another and welcomes him back with nothing but praise, it makes it tough for a coach to bench a player because of a blown defensive assignment.

Now I'm not saying it's a good idea to bring Rick back this season. It may not be. Management's screwed him so bad it's a wonder he hasn't died from terminal incontinence. They've made it next to impossible to discipline his team, they saddled him with a psycho and proceeded to hand the nutjob the keys to the city even after he'd proven he didn't deserve it and now they have him as a lame-duck coach. Might be better if he was gone. But most of that isn't Rick's fault.

sportsmusicxboxpacer
07-27-2006, 10:14 PM
rick will do better next season or else fired that all i can say about this ...

Jay Ohh
07-27-2006, 10:26 PM
There's almost nothing in this that I agree with.

Anybody who thinks that's the only style Rick coaches must have missed the Bird teams where he ran the offense AND his first year as head coach.

Rick coached the slow down grind-it-out style the last 2 seasons because that's what you do when your team is undermanned and doesn't have enough talent - you shorten the game, reduce the number of possessions and try to milk everything you can out of every possession.

If the Pacers get to where he was his first season talent-wise he'll coach that way - open up the offense and use the team's athleticism as an advantage. But if you don't have the athletes to match other teams, you slow it down.

As for discipline, I'll only repeat what I've said before. When management worships a player who singlehandedly destroyed one entire season and had a big part in ending another and welcomes him back with nothing but praise, it makes it tough for a coach to bench a player because of a blown defensive assignment.

Now I'm not saying it's a good idea to bring Rick back this season. It may not be. Management's screwed him so bad it's a wonder he hasn't died from terminal incontinence. They've made it next to impossible to discipline his team, they saddled him with a psycho and proceeded to hand the nutjob the keys to the city even after he'd proven he didn't deserve it and now they have him as a lame-duck coach. Might be better if he was gone. But most of that isn't Rick's fault.

So, Rick being scared to bench people at the right time is Ron's fault? Plenty of what happened last season was Ron's fault, but even when Rick did have the players to make the games better, Ron, JO, and Mel Mel all healthy at the beginning of the season, he still chose to go the slow route giving the players no freedom.

We had plenty of talent to start last season, and we were still mediocre, so you can't blame it on that. Management stood behind Ron. Didn't seem like that bad of an idea at the time considering how important he was to us, and the fact that his value was low.

We even had the personnel to speed it up when we got Peja, but still nothing. He just likes the slow game.

NorCal_Pacerfan
07-27-2006, 10:27 PM
If Rick doesn't perform this year, then it's best for both parties to part ways. I think Rick could use a year off and a fresh start elsewhere. He deserves it after what he's been through.

BlueNGold
07-27-2006, 10:47 PM
Whether Rick coaches the entire season or not, it will be his last in Indy.

Armstrong is in, Rick is out. I truly think this will happen.

BTW, I think Rick is a great coach under the right circumstances. The team had a multitude of problems, one of which was a culture clash between the coaching staff and many of the players. The Pacers have started solving this problem, and it is the coaching staff that will be gutted, not the players. Rick's long-time buddy (ONeill) has been booted and he is next.

Tinsley and Jackson fit well in the new style the team is forming, and will be important pieces. Now that the Pacers have got rid of all the "good guys" like AJ, Cro, Peja, Fred...the team should be able to move on....but they will move on without Carlisle in control.

Roaming Gnome
07-27-2006, 10:59 PM
As much as I hate the system Carlisle runs....I'm curious with bringing Johny Davis, Darrell Armstrong, and Al onto the team, if this kind of aids Carlisle in the part of the job that he did rather poorly last year. Player/ego managment!

pizza guy
07-27-2006, 11:21 PM
I'm torn on Carlisle. I'd say since he's under contract, and we're concerned about paying out too much money as it is (luxury tax), keep him this year. If it doesn't get any better, he has no excuse (well, I guess there could be Tinsley, but...) like the past couple seasons. Let's see what he can do with a re-vamped/re-tooled roster, and if he really does change the style of the offense (which I think Al will help by forcing JO to play faster at C).

I wouldn't mind seeing Rick Adleman on the sidelines either, though.

LoneGranger33
07-27-2006, 11:33 PM
Maybe Stephen Jackson could be a player-coach?

Julius Sour
07-28-2006, 01:36 AM
Little Runus-...

Nice One

Js

Jermaniac
07-28-2006, 04:47 AM
I cant stand him
1.His offense sucks
2.His rotations suck
3.He doesnt know how to use the players he has
4.He is afraid of his players
5.Has favorites on the team which results in David Harrison and Danny Granger not playing as much as they should
6.Has this stupid *** idea that if you are under 23 you shouldnt play alot
7.He is always sitting on the bench looking lost as hell, like "Where the hell am I"
8.Main reason why we lost Ron
9.Main reason why we always lose double digit leads

There is some more stuff but I dont feel like thinking about it now it makes my head hurt.

But if he runs a better offense next year I might put up with some of that stuff.

Big Smooth
07-28-2006, 06:00 AM
I have mixed feelings about Rick coming back. I don't think there's anyone necessarily better out there right now, though I wouldn't be upset if Rick Adelman came here. So I'm glad we're working with the best available. And Rick really does bring a lot of positives to the table.

But at the same time I'm worried that he's worn out his welcome, his social ineptitude will continue to wear on the players, and that he won't coach these players correctly.

I'm far from convinced that Rick Carlisle is "socially inept". His first season, the Pacers blow up and win 60+ games. His second season, he got that team to run through brick walls to achieve what they did after all the suspensions and injuries.

The last two seasons have been such a clusterbomb I'm not sure you could expect much more out of ANY coach. And I don't use that as a blanket excuse for any bad moves Rick may have made but overall, I've seen the man coach the P's for 3 full seasons and I don't feel him coming back is a bad thing. He knows the X's and O's and plus now we have Johnny Davis to take the Mike Brown role of player liason or whatnot.

I look at the past two seasons and I don't see bad coaching. I see one of the most, if not THE most dysfunctional situations personnel wise that I have seen in a long time. Artest plain and simple blew up and ruined the best layed plans. Guys had trouble adjusting. In the aftermath, I don't really hold any grudges not against Carlisle or even the guys noted as "problem kids" such as Tinsley and Jackson.

Look at this way, we can definitely enter the 2006-07 season not having to worry about Ron Artest going Jekyll & Hyde. Guys on the team should have a pretty decent idea what to expect. For the first time since the 2004 ECF team, the P's should have a fairly stable roster. So I'm in favor of letting Rick handle a STABLE situation once more before drawing any larger conclusions on his coaching ability.

IMO.

Big Smooth
07-28-2006, 06:03 AM
But if he runs a better offense next year I might put up with some of that stuff.

It appears the Pacers offseason moves will force Rick into a different style of offense. And as far as Rick's tendencies on offense, well he did specialize in coaching the offense during Larry's 3 years as head coach and the Pacers offense seemed to run very fluidly during that timeframe.

skyfire
07-28-2006, 06:07 AM
8.Main reason why we lost Ron


Wow, I've never heard that one. I think a beer cup and Ron are the main reasons we traded Ron.

Jermaniac
07-28-2006, 07:01 AM
Ron asked for a trade because he didnt want to play for Little Ricky, the brawl had nothing to do with Ron asking to be traded. Think before you post is the lesson for today.

Big Smooth
07-28-2006, 07:08 AM
Ron asked for a trade because he didnt want to play for Little Ricky, the brawl had nothing to do with Ron asking to be traded. Think before you post is the lesson for today.

I'd agree that Ron's trade request had nothing to do with the brawl.

aero
07-28-2006, 08:30 AM
If Rick isnt our coach the only other person id like to see is Larry Bird but i really dont see that happening so im ok with Rick being our coach

Slick Pinkham
07-28-2006, 08:44 AM
Ron asked for a trade because he didnt want to play for Little Ricky.

I can't believe that you seriously think this is true. It's on the list, but it's only about #6.

Ron asked for a trade becuase:

1) the Pacers were insisting he get mental health care and he absolutely refused to comply and resented the fact that they even were asking that of him

2) He didn't get along with his teammates because of all the times he let them down-- the 5% we know about and the 95% of the incidents we don't (missed practices, flights, moody behavior, tardiness)

3) He wanted to be "the man" and it was clear that JO was the man

4) He felt like as long as he was a Pacer, he was stamped with the label of the bad guy brawler

5) He is a psycho and envisioned he could force a trade to a major market and help his record-making career

6) He likes the freedom to break plays and dominate on offense, and Rick won't allow Rucker park basketball. Ron hated the structured offense and particularly the focus on Jermaine.

purdue101
07-28-2006, 08:53 AM
i'm willing to give rick another year b/c i know he's one of the best coaches in the NBA, whether he fits with our team or not. i'm hoping he can lose the stubborness and adjust to the new style of play. no way in hell would i give him an extension before next summer though.

my problem with rick was that he used veteran players as a "crutch" b/c he felt more comfortable with them, even though they were obviously less talented. cro and AJ are the first two that come to mind. by trading those guys away, bird is essentially forcing carlisle to play granger & harrison more mins. he's also forcing him to use tins and saras as our PG rotation.....though i wouldn't be surprised to see rick give DA mins.

i have a feeling that next season we may see a similar trend, only this time he'll use foster as his crutch. from reading the posts on here, it seems most ppl want a starting frontcourt of DG, Al, & JO. i would like to see that too, but i just don't see carlisle being able to drop his old ways and conform to a small and athletic lineup. i expect either Al or DG to come off the bench and foster to start at center.

D-BONE
07-28-2006, 09:05 AM
I wouldn't go so far as to call RC socially inept. I mean in all social aspects of life. As far as interacting with the team we know that's the most ongoing criticism levied against him back to the Detroit days.

I know there's no one way/approach/philosophy/etc. to successful coaching, but the one thing I wish we could get from RC is a little more energy and enthusiasm. That's probably not fair given it just doesn't seem to fit his personality but it's the thing I most wish for at times.

I've got no major problem with his knowledge, strategies, offenses, etc.. All that said, I'd wouldn't mind seeing somebody with a more zestful approach get a try. Darrell Armstrong? Maybe still a few years away from a head coaching gig though?

DisplacedKnick
07-28-2006, 09:14 AM
Ron asked for a trade because he didnt want to play for Little Ricky, the brawl had nothing to do with Ron asking to be traded. Think before you post is the lesson for today.

Yes it is. And you're advocating turning over control of the team to a total nutjob who absolutely destroyed one season and had a big hand in ending another.

Nice to know what your standards are - who do you think's emotionally unstable enough to meet your criteria for coach? Cindy Sheehan?

purdue101
07-28-2006, 09:15 AM
I wouldn't go so far as to call RC socially inept. I mean in all social aspects of life. As far as interacting with the team we know that's the most ongoing criticism levied against him back to the Detroit days.

I know there's no one way/approach/philosophy/etc. to successful coaching, but the one thing I wish we could get from RC is a little more energy and enthusiasm. That's probably not fair given it just doesn't seem to fit his personality but it's the thing I most wish for at times.

I've got no major problem with his knowledge, strategies, offenses, etc.. All that said, I'd wouldn't mind seeing somebody with a more zestful approach get a try. Darrell Armstrong? Maybe still a few years away from a head coaching gig though?

i would like to see rick get on our players when they **** up. show some fire and authority. not when they make a bad play, miss a shot, etc. but when they yell at refs and don't get back on defense. next time david or jax start that crap i would love to see him yank them and then lay into them as they head for the pine.

clemdogg
07-28-2006, 09:21 AM
There's almost nothing in this that I agree with.

Anybody who thinks that's the only style Rick coaches must have missed the Bird teams where he ran the offense AND his first year as head coach.

Rick coached the slow down grind-it-out style the last 2 seasons because that's what you do when your team is undermanned and doesn't have enough talent - you shorten the game, reduce the number of possessions and try to milk everything you can out of every possession.

If the Pacers get to where he was his first season talent-wise he'll coach that way - open up the offense and use the team's athleticism as an advantage. But if you don't have the athletes to match other teams, you slow it down.

As for discipline, I'll only repeat what I've said before. When management worships a player who singlehandedly destroyed one entire season and had a big part in ending another and welcomes him back with nothing but praise, it makes it tough for a coach to bench a player because of a blown defensive assignment.

Now I'm not saying it's a good idea to bring Rick back this season. It may not be. Management's screwed him so bad it's a wonder he hasn't died from terminal incontinence. They've made it next to impossible to discipline his team, they saddled him with a psycho and proceeded to hand the nutjob the keys to the city even after he'd proven he didn't deserve it and now they have him as a lame-duck coach. Might be better if he was gone. But most of that isn't Rick's fault.

I pretty much completely agree with all of this. You don't play an uptempo game with an aged, backup point guard and half your team injured or suspended. Can any of you name a coach who, under the same circumstances, would have guided this team into the playoffs the last 2 years the way Rick did? As for the circumstances, you can't blame Rick for those. Larry and Donny are the ones that decided to stick with Ron, and essentially cost us two shots at a title. But Rick was the most instrumental person in getting us into the playoffs the last 2 years.

The guy knows the game. I don't know if Rick is part of Larry's new "athletic, uptempo" scheme, but who is our alternative right now?

Carlisle has just had a really bad run of it, it seems. The Pistons get rid of him after 2 or 3 straight trips to the ECF, then get Larry Brown and win it. He comes to Indy, sets the franchise record for wins in a season, and now has to go through this ******. No, I'm not sure how much longer Rick will be here, but if he's let go, its not his fault.

ChicagoJ
07-28-2006, 10:34 AM
The fact that Rick did an admirable job under duress has nothing to do whatsoever with whether he's the right coach or not for this team next season.

This falls into the same general category as the recent AJ discussion, by the way.

Rick is not part of the solution. Retaining him for another season out of either loyalty or a "reward" for doing an excellent job in the past is a losing proposition. Its time to move on. Just because he overachieved in our ****ed-up situation does not guarantee him a role on this team in the future - when things are normal again. Further, I'm concerned (of course) that keeping him around another year only postpones normalcy.

Rick's a great X's and O's guy - no doubt about it. And no one is disputing that. I haven't even been all that vocal about Rick's iso-offense because with this team that probably was the best offense for our rag-tag team from a coach's perspective.

But he's lousy with player rotations and he's utterly overbearing with the play calling/ walk-it-up pace. He's a control freak, for crying out loud. And the NBA is and has always been a player's league. He either needs to go coach in college with the rest of the control freaks or settle for being the #1 assistant at the pro level.

grace
07-28-2006, 10:54 AM
Maybe Stephen Jackson could be a player-coach?

I'd rather have Boomer coach.

birdman
07-28-2006, 11:06 AM
If Rick isnt our coach the only other person id like to see is Larry Bird but i really dont see that happening so im ok with Rick being our coach

I wish.

Destined4Greatness
07-28-2006, 11:26 AM
If Jermaine and Tinsley get another Chance Rick Does. RIck has let us down like half a year. Tinsley and Jermaine have let us down like 3 years in a row.

Jay Ohh
07-28-2006, 05:51 PM
It seems really pointless to keep him around when we know he'll be gone next year no matter what. I don't see why we aren't looking more to the future. His style doesn't fit, and he doesn't communicate with his players.

This is going to set us back in developing the new look team.

Destined4Greatness
07-29-2006, 01:44 PM
It seems really pointless to keep him around when we know he'll be gone next year no matter what. I don't see why we aren't looking more to the future. His style doesn't fit, and he doesn't communicate with his players.

This is going to set us back in developing the new look team.


This describes JO pretty well too. Ship em both out.

Roaming Gnome
07-29-2006, 01:56 PM
This describes JO pretty well too. Ship em both out.
Hey, it's obvious that you have a personal beef with JO, but do you seriously believe that we are a better team with draft picks and/or lesser talent?

Before you feed me the crap that is in your sig line, I just wonder the caliber of competition we played when J.O. was out that we have such a wonderful record without him. Just off the top of my head, the time JO was out....I thought we were beating up on "the sisters of the poor".

redwillow
07-29-2006, 02:14 PM
I never understood why Carlisle gets such a bad rep. Considering what he's had to work with the last two years I think he's done a terrfific job. Why is it that I heard several analists state that he deserved coach of the year for the job he did the last season and the one before? I think he's done some weird things too but when you are faced with the situation that he was you really don't have a choice but to get creative. I don't care if his style is precieved as boring, I care if it is a winning style. When Rick actually has a competitive team to coach he wins more than he loses. And in the Eastern Conference if you can do that it's worth at least a 4rth seed. ;)

The only reason I would see for him to leave is because after several seasons sometimes players begin to tune out there coaches. If Larry would come down and coach that would be great. But barring that or Phil Jackson or something who do you guys want?

DisplacedKnick
07-29-2006, 02:41 PM
I never understood why Carlisle gets such a bad rep.

Because if you don't criticize Carlisle you'd have to get on Donnie Walsh for putting together a team full of talented headcases - and then worshipping the very ground the headcase that ruined a season walks upon.

Can't have that can we?

redwillow
07-29-2006, 02:44 PM
Can't have that can we?

No, we can't have that. Donnie Walsh is like my Pope.

Jay Ohh
07-29-2006, 03:11 PM
Hey, it's obvious that you have a personal beef with JO, but do you seriously believe that we are a better team with draft picks and/or lesser talent?

Before you feed me the crap that is in your sig line, I just wonder the caliber of competition we played when J.O. was out that we have such a wonderful record without him. Just off the top of my head, the time JO was out....I thought we were beating up on "the sisters of the poor".

lol Don't take that kid seriously. He wants to rebuild around Stephen Jackson.

McKeyFan
07-29-2006, 03:13 PM
I heard several analists state that he deserved coach of the year

That's because he's an anal control freak.