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View Full Version : Mavericks Fan's Take on New Pacers; Wants Feedback on New Mavs



M3Man
07-27-2006, 03:31 AM
I've been a Mavs season ticket holder since '83, so I'm dying for details on what to expect from the guys we're getting from you. I figured you guys would like details from someone who's seen most of the games played by your incoming players as well, so, here's my take.

I love me some 'Quis. We used to call him and Josh Howard the twins. Almost the same body, came in as rookies together, and Quis actually had the better year. He is great slasher with an uncanny ability to get open in the lane for a little jump shot. Not too good a shooter outside of 15 feet, but moves well without the ball, sort of a poor mans Rip Hamilton. A very poor man's. He had this great rookie season,averaged like 16 points against Sac in the playoffs, got a nice contract, then hurt his ankle in the off season. He didn't get well until January, then he had apendicitis. Just about the time he got back, the coach who loved him, Don Nelson, retired. New coach Avery Johnson demanded consistancy and Quis didn't really deliver. Still, in December of his 3rd season, he ended up starting about 25 games and was averaging about 17 points. Then Kurt Thomas tomahawked him in the neck and he must have misssed 20 games. The Mavs put in Adrian Griffin and went on something like a 13 game winning streak. When Quis returned, he never started again. The good news is, whenever he gets minutes, he's productive. And the injuries were mainly fluke stuff, not the kind you'd expect to recur. He does look like he's half asleep all the time. If he works on his jump shot, he can be a very good 2. He handles the ball well enough to play some point, but not against little quick guys like Speedy Claxton. In playoff game 6, our top 2 point guards got 2 fouls each halfway through the 1st quarter. As I started anticipating game 7, Quis came in, played point until deep into the 2nd quarter, when Terry and Harris each picked up their 3rd. Quis scored 12 points and saved the game. He's a good human being as well, which I guess after that incident is a good thing to have in Indy.

That being the case, Darrell Armstrong is a great guy to have. You'd think at 38 he's be gassed, and his shot is about shot. But his heart is as big as Texas. He is a great leader. We used him as an energy guy, when the team looked lethargic. He'd go out like a waterbug and draw a charge off of anybody, no matter how big. ANd when you see a 38 year old guy give up his body, you have to love him, and his devotion really challenges his teammates to pick it up. The consumate old pro. You really don't want to be depending on him, but if you can spare a roster spot, he makes everyone around him better, even if he's not playing. We'll really miss him here. There was one game last year, i think in Seattle, a couple of games after Kobe put up 63 in 3 quarters on us. The mavs were playing in slo-mo, down double digits. In comes the Super Spare. He dives for a ball out of bounds and hits a chair so hard with his head, I cringe just to remember. He didn't come back, but that play won the game. How coud anybody look an old man in the eye and say, "sorry about the concussion, but we still couldn't beat Seatte?"

Your team shoud be sure to bring Howard and Marshall to camp. The Mavs are very good at finding guys who get missed in the draft. That's how they got 'Quis. Rawle is a slasher who was improving quickly. The Mavs had a lot of injuries last year, so he started 9 games as a rookie. He was in a bit over his head but showed real promise. Powell is more of a banger. A true blue collar rebounder, works hard on D but the way they call fouls on rookies, its hard to tell how good he can be. He only takes shots he can make, inside 18 feet, but he has a very nice little jumper. With Van Horn injured, Powell got to back up Dirk a lot. I was prepared to have him as Dirk's main backup, I was so frustrated at Van Horns shooting. I'd rather have a guy like Powell who's not taking 3's than KVH missing 75% of them and shooting everytime he touches the ball. but I digress. If we had room on the roster, I woudn't mind keeping these guys.

But the Mavs believe Miami's maturity helped in the Finals, and the Mav's lack of it hurt. Hence the aquisition of AC and Johnson.

I'd love to hear your comments, and get some equal feedback on Cro and Johnson.
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M3Man
07-27-2006, 03:34 AM
Can a moderator correct my typo in the thread title please? All those years writing checks to Mark Cuban and it looks like I can't even spell the team name.

Fireball Kid
07-27-2006, 04:37 AM
Hello M3Man. I'm a Pacers/Mavericks fan and I'm glad to have you on board. As far as the players that are coming to Dallas, all I have to say is that Anthony Johnson is a major upgrade over DA. He is more of a shoot-first point guard. He had a hell of a game against the Nets in the playoffs. Austin Croshere is an upgrade over Keith Van Horn I think. I cant wait to get rid of Keith Van Horn. But I think the most important thing is Croshere and AJ provide playoff experience which is what the Mavericks really need.

I'm not very good at describing players so I hope that will give you some idea of what you'll expect from those two players.

And again, welcome aboard!

burnzone
07-27-2006, 04:54 AM
Croshere is a consummate professional, great locker room guy, he hustles, and probably his strongest point on the floor, is he's a great free throw shooter.

He should be a great backup for Dirk, he can really go after rebounds when he wants to, and always seems to come up with big plays in the 4th quarter.

The only downfall with Croshere is if he starts trying to drive to the basket, he has one move he always uses, a crazy fakeout jab step, and then sloppy ball handling to get to the basket. But if gets a foul call, he's pretty much automatic from the stripe.

I think you guys will appreciate his professionalism, and work ethic, I agree that he is an upgrade over Van Horn.



Anthony Johnson is a steady point guard who won't make many mistakes, but he won't dazzle you either.

He is consistent, but one major flaw as others have pointed out before, is that he absolutely cannot make the correct entry pass to the post, he just doesn't seem to have that natural PG instinct to really know where to get a guy the ball in scoring position down low.

But, you probably won't need to rely on him for 1st string minutes, so that shouldn't be a problem.

He is basically an SG, in a PG's body, but can't really handle hard pressure by quick guards getting up in his chest full court.

You guys should be ok with him as your 3rd PG, but I wonder how he will deal with that, because he didn't like the thought of it here.

I just don't see A.J. getting many minutes over Jet, and Devin Harris, but if one of your PG's gets injured, you know A.J. can give you good minutes.

He'll very rarely shoot the lights out, but usually has a nice mid-range pull up jumper, and he won't have many double digit assist games.

Lord Helmet
07-27-2006, 05:01 AM
We got ripped off in the AJ deal. 'Nuff said about that.

As for the Croshere deal we might have gotten a better player, but Austin is a great teammate, a leader, and can have games where he is on fire. For post-game interviews and such, he always says the right things.

AJ - B+
AC - C+

rexnom
07-27-2006, 05:04 AM
I think AJ and Cro are the perfect bench guys for you guys, especially if you want to start Jet and Devin together. I feel like this is the element you guys needed. Not the best players, not the most talented guys, just consistent guys who can contribute and AJ and Cro fit the bill. And the best part is that you gave up nothing that you'd miss on the court a lot. The Mavs have to be the favorite to win going into next year.

EDIT: One problem that we had is that AJ lost some consistency at times. For example, when Tinsley was injured he was fabulous as a starter but then when Tinsley came back, AJ just failed to prove himself and lost the spot again after some awful games.

As for Cro, sure he is the consummate professional, but there's more to him. Truth is that I would have some concern as to how he can hold up playing a faster-paced game in the West. Not to worry though because he is a definite upgrade over van Horn and he can definitely be a great backup at the 4.

The Hustler
07-27-2006, 05:17 AM
You'll love Cro giving Dirk a break ... he'll do exactly what u ask and always be a steady solid guy ... perfect for your bench! not gunna be any problem with him ... just generally a good guy

AJ will just walk around with a flashing Neon Light saying "i back up Jason" which is fine ... he can step in and score a few points of the bench and take the pressure and allow your starters minutes off in the middle of games. He may frustrate you at times being a shoot first PG and go for a runner rather than pass it up for Dirk or someone! ... but generally he will serve u well IMO

I think there great aquisitions for your team .. strengthening depth and providing solidity of the bench .. in my view the mavs have made some great moves this offseason ... jsut adding to there roster solid role players that they can rely on ...much like miami last yr but with less of the Egos and possible conflicts, picking up ager in the draft was also a great gain for you! .... i wish AJ and Cro all the best and hope they serve you well ...

In return Quis im sure will be very effective weather he backs up 2/3 or start at shooting! as for DA ... not so sure but at least he will be a solid pro with plenty of experience and energy!

Cheers

Unclebuck
07-27-2006, 09:25 AM
The common thought seems to be that Croshere is an upgrade over Keith Van Horn. That would not have been the case a few seasons ago, I always considered Van Horn a better player, clearly better. I realize Van Horn has had a number of injuries the past few seasons and perhaps that has limited his effectiveness, so maybe Cro is better than KVH now, but if I were a Mavs fan (which I kind of am) I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that Cro is better than Van Horn.

I remember many discussions in this forum over the years comparing Cro and Keith and the overwhelming concensus always was that Keith was just better across the board. But like I said maybe Keith's game has fallen off. I mean Van Horn has had 8 seasons where he averaged more than 15 points per game.

Gamble
07-27-2006, 09:47 AM
Given UB's comments I'll say this Austin is quit simply a guy who will play
through an injury. Many times he was the only player on
our team to step up and play with busted ribs and the like.

As for AJ I use to hate him as our backup for the main fact that our
starter is so different from AJ. Late passes and boring to watch AJ is
one thing "consistent". He is a pretty good defender and he really doesn't
get muscled by larger pg however he is to slow for the quick pg.

Both are good locker room guys and will stay ready to play when called upon
which is what you expect from a backup. Good luck with our boys.

Mourning
07-27-2006, 09:47 AM
They are both decent and professional players. Something that I would be worried about with both players is that they both seem to need some real minutes to be effective.

AJ is ok as a back up, but I doubt he would flourish in an up-tempo offense, but he was actually at his best as a starter. People grumbled about him as a backup and were ok with his play when he started.

Croshere, even more then AJ IMO needs real minutes to be effective. When he was used by Zeke when he was coaching here he would only get a few minutes (and a lot of times at an unsuited position for him) and generally suck.

Rick was a breath of fresh-air to him I reckon. He was used as a backup 4 and in a few games even as a backup 5. Backup 4 is where he should play and if he's in the game 15-25 minutes he will do quite nice for you.

IF you play him like 10 minutes, expect to be dissappointed. A real hustler and good lockerroom presence, won't complain. Likes the 3 a little too much on occasion. Good pick up for you guys I would say.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Granville
07-27-2006, 09:59 AM
Thanks for your input.

You'll find the posters here to be informed and, for the most part, appreciative of the opportunity to share views with fans of other teams. However, with that said, I tend to not value Cro and AJ as much as many here do.

I think they are average NBA players. They'll have some good moments for you and they'll have some not-so-good moments for you. I think they are both rather inconsistent. Neither guy will hurt you to have on the team, but your season won't be hurt much if you lost either for a long period due to injury.

Croshere had the huge NBA Finals for us, but other than that, I think his career has been rather blah. I think a case can be made that he has been a first round bust. For instance, if Danny Granger has the same kind of career as Croshere, I think many Pacers fans would be very disappointed.

I think when it is all said and done, AJ's career will resemble that of a player like Kevin Ollie. Not in how they play per se, but as a guy who will have a decent career and play for a lot of teams. Basically I think Cro and AJ will add to your depth, but not have too much of an impact on your season.

Like I said earlier though, I value the opinions of those on this board, and I think many will disagree with my assessment. So, I very well could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

Slick Pinkham
07-27-2006, 10:07 AM
Croshere is a better rebounder and defender against bigger people than KVH with fewer injury issues, I see him as a small tough reasonably athletic 4.

KVH is a better and more consistent shooter, and has more mobility, and is more of a wing player.

AJ is a good shooter and built like a fire hydrant so he doesn't get pushed around on D.

Anthem
07-27-2006, 10:20 AM
Croshere, even more then AJ IMO needs real minutes to be effective. When he was used by Zeke when he was coaching here he would only get a few minutes (and a lot of times at an unsuited position for him) and generally suck.

Rick was a breath of fresh-air to him I reckon.
:soundoff:

Ah, forget it. He's a Mav now. Just allow me to say, for the record, that I strongly disagree with the idea that Zeke was unfair to Croshere or that Carlisle was better to him. If not for the injuries and suspensions of the last 2 years, Cro would have gotten the same amount of burn under Carlisle as he did under Zeke.

able
07-27-2006, 10:30 AM
:soundoff:

Ah, forget it. He's a Mav now. Just allow me to say, for the record, that I strongly disagree with the idea that Zeke was unfair to Croshere or that Carlisle was better to him. If not for the injuries and suspensions of the last 2 years, Cro would have gotten the same amount of burn under Carlisle as he did under Zeke.
His highest min played under Rick : 1827 (Brawl year), in his first year under Zeke he played 1874 min In Rick's first year he played 1057 minutes, which is less then 2 out of 3 season with Zeke, in the last year he played 1148 which is still less then 2 out of the 3 years under Zeke.

DisplacedKnick
07-27-2006, 10:34 AM
Yeah - I'll happily dog Zeke as much or more than the next guy but not giving AC a shot isn't one of the reasons. I think his first season IT came into the season firmly convinced that Austin would be a starter - but after 20 games where he shot like 35% and revealed all of his limitations, that idea was gone.

Isiah gave AC every chance to show he was starter material and he flunked that test badly.

sig
07-27-2006, 10:50 AM
The problem with KVH is that he doesn't produce when called upon. He was the Mavs 2nd best player in November last year. November! Who cares. During crunch time he is a deer in the headlights type of player. He had one nice game against the Spurs in the plyoffs where he hit 3 3's. the Mavs lost that game i think. Other than that he missed 3 point shot after 3 point shot. He couldn't defend anybody and was generally lost on the court. I agree that KVH is more skilled than cro but there is a reason that K-Mart called him out on the Nets. He can't come thru in important situations. He'd be a great player on the Blazers.

Hicks
07-27-2006, 10:50 AM
Have we all forgotten WHERE he played Croshere? You know, as the starting SMALL forward? I wonder why THAT didn't work?

ChicagoJ
07-27-2006, 11:17 AM
I was going to say the same thing... Isiah should've made the starting frontcourt in 2000-2001 to be Jalen/ Austin/ JO. Yes, JO was really light at that time but he was even more of a post player then vs. recently.

The Austin/ JO/ Perkins-Tabak front court was a debacle. Just about everybody was out of position.

Now for the discussion at hand, Burnzone and Granville hit the nail on the head.

Croshere is a pro's pro. And he's clutch - but only if you give him enough minutes to get into a rhythm. Croshere just makes the type of plays you need to win games. And after he does it you'll say, "I didn't know he could do that." and you may never see it happen again. I always thought of KVH as an oversized SF, but Austin was always a PF. Austin's just grittier than KVH, and he's got fewer miles. KVH was better/ more skilled in his prime. Croshere's biggest problem was that Chicago and Houston threw silly money at him in 2000, and we decided to match it. Leaving him with an inflated contract.

AJ is a SG in a PG's body. He can defend the point, but he can't really run an offense to save his life. Fortunately, he's a good shooter so not all is lost.

Since you don't rely on Dirk in the paint all that much, it may not matter as much. Where Dirk likes to get the ball (facing the basket), AJ can do that. So he should be a nice compliment to your team because you'll play him to his strenghts. When Tinsley would go down with injuries, we'd either force AJ to his weaknesses or force the team to adapt to a less-skilled PG.

We'll miss Croshere's lockerroom presence. The popular feeling was that we'd miss AJ's lockerroom presence, too. But that's assumption is being challenged - not that he's a bad guy but he's the guy that really complained about the Saras signing, he's the guy that was outspoken about other stuff, and he's the guy management traded. Was he the most tradeable, or did management just feel he was not happy with his role? We don't know. He's not a bad guy, but he's got a lot of pride - perhaps too much pride for a backup PG.

Mourning
07-27-2006, 11:36 AM
Have we all forgotten WHERE he played Croshere? You know, as the starting SMALL forward? I wonder why THAT didn't work?

Thank you and :amen:.

M3Man
07-27-2006, 12:22 PM
Great insight and many thanks. I've been reading every article I could find about these guys, but they aren't the type to get much written about them. Plus, who could know more hoops than Indiana fans. Funny how 2 of the biggest names in Texas basketball have Indiana roots. I'm sure you all know Cuban got rich because he started Broadcast.com so he could hear I.U. games while in Dallas. And then there's Bobby Knight at Texas Tech.

Your input is much appreciated. If you want updates on how your ex's do through the season, check us out over at
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/

Thanks again.

PacerMan
07-27-2006, 12:25 PM
Have we all forgotten WHERE he played Croshere? You know, as the starting SMALL forward? I wonder why THAT didn't work?

Until the last couple years Austin wasn't strong enough to check post players. He simply couldn't guard 4's. There was no other choice at that time.

DisplacedKnick
07-27-2006, 12:31 PM
Have we all forgotten WHERE he played Croshere? You know, as the starting SMALL forward? I wonder why THAT didn't work?

It easily worked as well as starting him at the 4 would have. He was the ultimate tweener. Better to play him at the 3 where at least the defense has time to rotate to cover when he doesn't defend someone and where his only offensive competence in shooting could be used.

Granted, we know now that he's just not a starter-caliber NBA player but this was right after the brain trust signed him to the big contract. Zeke about had to start him somewhere.

ABADays
07-27-2006, 01:37 PM
I'm sure gonna miss Cro! :(

Anthem
07-27-2006, 02:17 PM
Have we all forgotten WHERE he played Croshere? You know, as the starting SMALL forward? I wonder why THAT didn't work?
I've posted links on this about a billion times, but coming into that season Austin still saw himself as a SF who occasionally played out of position at PF.

There's no denying that today, Austin is a PF. But way back when, he was definitely considered a SF. IT gave him every opportunity... played him at both forward spots, both starting and off the bench. It never worked out.

Bball
07-27-2006, 02:26 PM
I've posted links on this about a billion times, but coming into that season Austin still saw himself as a SF who occasionally played out of position at PF.

There's no denying that today, Austin is a PF. But way back when, he was definitely considered a SF. IT gave him every opportunity... played him at both forward spots, both starting and off the bench. It never worked out.

Isiah drew his rotations and minutes out of a hat before each game. Outside of Reggie not playing center, I'm not sure what player didn't find time at nearly all 5 positions during Isiah's 'coaching'.

Rotational consistency wasn't an Isiah forte. You could play one minute in one game and 40 mins in the next only to be relegated to DNP-CD for a string of games before returning for a solid 20 mins only to be sent to the bench again.

-Bball

Naptown_Seth
07-28-2006, 01:43 AM
AJ's 2 best offensive plays

1) Drives lane, turns around about 5 feet out and shoots a fade. Hits it at a very nice rate, much better than you would expect from that shot. Because of the movement it is also tough to defend or block.

2) Give and go. He's pretty good about coming to the post and using his long arms to ensure that he gets the pass back cleanly and up on the rack.


Worst offensive plays

1) Pick and Roll, can't run it, just terrible. He just doesn't have the array of passing moves to make some of these rather tricky passes. He doesn't like to pass one handed, especially left handed (unless I've spaced on this). He will go 2 handed and attempt to throw it over a player too often.

2) Passing from the dribble motion, ie, one handed. Tinsley and SarJas to a lesser extent can make this powerful pass, but AJ rarely does. This is just not a move he appears to have, and that affects not only the PnR as listed above, but his general PG play.

Most of his passes come from him picking up his dribble first and often using 2 hands to move the ball any kind of distance around the court.

I also agree with this from Jay

AJ is a SG in a PG's body. He can defend the point, but he can't really run an offense to save his life. Fortunately, he's a good shooter so not all is lost.

At least that's my read of him.



AC - GREAT pass fake move, especially on the arc. I mean its hard and looks real, and he pulls it back quickly enough to do something with the space it buys. He also has a solid 3ball shot.

Problem is that he is slow as can be and has a very slow step move when going off the dribble. He can be effective with it, but its highly matchup dependent.

Slow defender, not a strength, doesn't hold guys back off the dribble, but he does rebound pretty well and is a hustle player. Gets hurt A LOT, but will play injured (not always a good thing).


Couple of solid bench guys.

Peck
07-28-2006, 02:09 AM
The problem with KVH is that he doesn't produce when called upon. He was the Mavs 2nd best player in November last year. November! Who cares. During crunch time he is a deer in the headlights type of player. He had one nice game against the Spurs in the plyoffs where he hit 3 3's. the Mavs lost that game i think. Other than that he missed 3 point shot after 3 point shot. He couldn't defend anybody and was generally lost on the court. I agree that KVH is more skilled than cro but there is a reason that K-Mart called him out on the Nets. He can't come thru in important situations. He'd be a great player on the Blazers.


Now now now, we have people on here who will go to their graves claiming that because we were beating the hell out of the Pistons in November the night of the brawl we were destined to be the title holders.

But I agree with you though.;)

BTW, always good to see you again Sig.

Anthem
07-28-2006, 03:37 AM
Isiah drew his rotations and minutes out of a hat before each game. Outside of Reggie not playing center, I'm not sure what player didn't find time at nearly all 5 positions during Isiah's 'coaching'.

Rotational consistency wasn't an Isiah forte. You could play one minute in one game and 40 mins in the next only to be relegated to DNP-CD for a string of games before returning for a solid 20 mins only to be sent to the bench again.
All true. Doesn't negate my point.