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Hicks
07-26-2006, 03:19 AM
Flawed conclusion
Last summer, Johnson foresaw being traded, but not recently

By Mike Wells
<script language="JavaScript"> <!-- document.write( ''+'mike.wells'+'@'+'indystar.com'+' (http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/+)'); //--> </script>mike.wells@indystar.com


Anthony Johnson saw this coming last summer.

Johnson was just a couple of months removed from playing a key role in the Indiana Pacers' playoff run when the team signed point guard Sarunas Jasikevicius. Johnson quickly surmised he could be the odd man out, demoted to third string behind starter Jamaal Tinsley and Jasikevicius.


"The thought was in my head," Johnson said in a phone interview Tuesday. "They signed Sarunas, then they hyped him up with his jersey hanging in the store and doing other promotions about him. I knew they wouldn't be able to keep three guys that want to play major minutes."


Johnson, traded to the Dallas Mavericks on Monday, changed his mind somewhat after he stepped in for the injured Tinsley again and put up career numbers, including walking off the Conseco Fieldhouse court to a standing ovation following a 40-point performance in a Game 6 loss to the New Jersey Nets in the playoffs.


That notion vanished Saturday when Johnson learned the Pacers agreed to trade him for Darrell Armstrong, Josh Powell and Rawle Marshall because they wanted to avoid a point guard controversy and poor chemistry this season.


"I'm a little surprised," said Johnson, who avoided most phone calls for several days. "I was tripping because (the Pacers) wouldn't take my agent's calls to tell him what was going on. They told me why they did it after the deal became official.


"At the same time, I felt like I was one of the most reliable players on the team. I always took pride in being ready when guys were out of the lineup. I felt like I cemented a spot as one of the guys they would build around."


Johnson started 89 games the past two seasons. His contract and reliability made him easier to trade. The Pacers think Tinsley gives them the better chance to win, but they also thought it would be tougher to move an injury-prone player who is signed through 2010-11.


Then there was the issue of whether Johnson would accept being Tinsley's backup again next season.


"If Jamaal came in in great shape and played the way he's capable of playing, I wouldn't have had no problem with that," Johnson said. "At the same time, though, if there's a competition and I'm playing the best, I feel like I should play the most. I just know the best guy should play and that's how I feel about that."


Johnson got people's attention when he said the team's "culture has to change" at the end of their 41-41 season.


"It's no secret they have issues," he said. "You can talk about injures, but you also have to talk about professionalism and being ready to play when the ball goes up. We didn't have the ship pointed in the right direction as far as being rested, being ready to play and playing with pure heart.


"I wasn't afraid to say the culture has to change because it does. It's not the front office; it's the players and the coaches. I respect (CEO) Donnie (Walsh) and (president) Larry (Bird); they're doing what's best for the franchise. I feel like I earned (coach) Rick Carlisle's respect with the way I played. I thank them for sending me to a team like Dallas."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060726/SPORTS04/607260411/1088

Robertmto
07-26-2006, 03:21 AM
so he was blackballed?

jjbjjbjjb
07-26-2006, 03:21 AM
Says all the right things, but we knew he'd do that much.

:wave: Smooth sailing, A.J.

Hicks
07-26-2006, 03:24 AM
I wasn't afraid to say the culture has to change because it does. It's not the front office; it's the players and the coaches. I respect (CEO) Donnie (Walsh) and (president) Larry (Bird); they're doing what's best for the franchise.

I think we need to pay attention to what he said, especially this.

NorCal_Pacerfan
07-26-2006, 03:25 AM
I'm glad for both he and Cro that they are going to a decent franchise. It's too bad for AJ his salary was so low, which made it almost too easy to trade him.

Good luck in Dallas AJ, say hi to Cro for me.

Robertmto
07-26-2006, 03:26 AM
AJ is a very smart and honest man.

jjbjjbjjb
07-26-2006, 03:31 AM
I think we need to pay attention to what he said, especially this.

Sure, but, he may be the player to which he unwittingly refers! :devil:

rexnom
07-26-2006, 03:36 AM
I found it interesting that he blamed the coaches as well as the players for the culture but then commended himself for earning Rick's respect. Does that mean that Rick was never the problem? Could someone like Kevin O'Neill and the fact that there was no players' coach there ala Mike Brown have affected this team more than we originally thought?

Hicks
07-26-2006, 03:40 AM
I'm positive O'Neill was part of the problem, at least. Rick's not exactly a social dynamite either.

bulletproof
07-26-2006, 03:49 AM
"If Jamaal came in in great shape and played the way he's capable of playing, I wouldn't have had no problem with that," Johnson said. "At the same time, though, if there's a competition and I'm playing the best, I feel like I should play the most. I just know the best guy should play and that's how I feel about that."
This about says it all. "Best" can be a subjective thing in some people's minds. And it's clear he thinks he's a starting caliber PG. He would not have been happy playing behind Tinsley, if that's the plan.



"At the same time, I felt like I was one of the most reliable players on the team. I always took pride in being ready when guys were out of the lineup. I felt like I cemented a spot as one of the guys they would build around."
I feel for AJ because he must have felt he had a career season and that his days as a back-up PG were over.

rexnom
07-26-2006, 03:53 AM
This about says it all. "Best" can be a subjective thing in some people's minds. And it's clear he thinks he's a starting caliber PG. He would not have been happy playing behind Tinsley, if that's the plan.

I feel for AJ because he must have felt he had a career season and that his days as a back-up PG were over.
I agree with all of this. Unfortunately, AJ is a career "starter on a bad team, back-up on a good team" and if we want to be a good team, he can't be our starting PG permanently. That's all there is to it.

DeS
07-26-2006, 05:24 AM
Unfortunately, AJ != Cro. I miss him now even more.

vapacersfan
07-26-2006, 05:46 AM
"I'm a little surprised," said Johnson, who avoided most phone calls for several days. "I was tripping because (the Pacers) wouldn't take my agent's calls to tell him what was going on. They told me why they did it after the deal became official.


So what was the reason :confused:

3ballinhoop
07-26-2006, 06:21 AM
In the first part of the interview, you clearly sent the jealousy Anthony Johnson feels towards other players such as Saras; he always thought that he doesn't get enough respect for what he does, and that results in a chronical state of frustration.
It is possible that the Pacers realized they wouldn't be able to give Johnson what he wants and preferred to move him on instead of keeping an incontent player.


I wasn't afraid to say the culture has to change because it does. It's not the front office; it's the players and the coaches. I respect (CEO) Donnie (Walsh) and (president) Larry (Bird); they're doing what's best for the franchise.

I believe that he is indeed critizising Carlisle here. Yes, Carlisle liked him and gave him a lot of chances. But I think he, as a guy who has gotten to where he is with hard work, hates to see how some people on this team can do whatever they want and get away with it, because Carlisle surely won't intervene. AJ has seen all the bad character stuff Tinsley has pulled & and all the pseudo-injuries, & still, once he feels like coming back to play, he is per definitionem the starter, no matter how much he actually sucks.

Now, just let me get to one more point, that I hope all of you will adress!
I think that it is more than shameful to see how players are treated by the clubs and by the trade modus in the NBA. You just lost one player who gave his best for this club for 3 years, you lost another player, who played for the Pacers for, oh I don't know, almost a decade?
Where are these players now? They are just gone, and you didn't give them a proper departure at all, did you? No official goodbye ceremony, no thank you from the fans, nothing?
Many of you often say that Indiana has the best basketball fans in the world, probably the best sports fans in the whole world. If that is the case, how come there is no salute, no nothing to two players that loyally played for the Pacers for over 10 years combined? I even completely forgot about Fred Jones, who was thrown away without a word from one day to the other, without the fans organizing anything for him.

In Europe, fans say goodbye to their players in an appropriate way, especially the ones that have given the fans and the club a lot. I think it is unbelievable that a guy like Austin Croshere is just dropped without a word from the fans. It looks to me like the only players that get a decent farewell from their clubs and most of all fans, are the few ones, who get their jersey retired, which happens once in 10 years.

When Saras left Maccabi Tel Aviv after only two seasons, the Maccabi fan clubs made approximately 10 different homage videos for him, and he was heavily celebrated with standing ovations with one of those videos being played for him on the bigscreen. So was Anthony Parker when he left.
Have a look, this is what fans that care for their players do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hteh7EYXC3o&search=jasikevicius

rexnom
07-26-2006, 06:25 AM
How did the Bayern faithful treat Michael Ballack?

Anthem
07-26-2006, 06:42 AM
When Saras left Maccabi Tel Aviv after only two seasons, the Maccabi fan clubs made approximately 10 different homage videos for him, and he was heavily celebrated with standing ovations with one of those videos being played for him on the bigscreen. So was Anthony Parker when he left.
Have a look, this is what fans that care for their players do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hteh7EYXC3o&search=jasikevicius
Austin doesn't have a whole lot of video-ready moments.

If he'd led us to a championship, though, I bet some would have tried.

3ballinhoop
07-26-2006, 06:43 AM
How did the Bayern faithful treat Michael Ballack?
Please, your argumentation of finding an exception is the one of a child. If you believe you have a valid point, elaborate it.

Still, I will comment on it. Michael Ballack got a very nice and respectful goodbye ceremony connected to the celebration of the Bundesliga championship trophy. The speculations about his transfer had gone on for almost 8 months, which made a big part of the Bayern Munich fans dislike him.
A small part of the 65000 fans whistled, which really sucked, but doesn't in any way change the fact that he got a nice goodbye from the majority of the fans and the club.

I don't see what that has to do with a player like Croshere, who played almost a decade for the Pacers & then gets kicked out without any goodbyes from the same fans that claim to be the best in the world. The same thing goes, but to a lesser extent because of the fewer years spent in Indiana, for Anthony Johnson and Fred Jones.
I mean, the club should definitely organize something for their players, but if they don't, at least those great fans should.
It is astonishing and definitely an aspect of sports where the NBA can learn a lot from other leagues.

Anthem
07-26-2006, 06:51 AM
Austin will be cheered when he returns. I won't be surprised if he gets a standing ovation.

With the amount of movement in the NBA, though, doing a goodbye ceremony for each outgoing player would be brutal.

owl
07-26-2006, 06:59 AM
You must have missed the Reggie retirement ceremony.
Austin was extremely well compensated for his service.
When Austin comes back next year to play against the Pacers I am
confident he will recieve a warm welcome. He deserves that.

RWB
07-26-2006, 07:07 AM
.
this is what fans that care for their players do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hteh7EYXC3o&search=jasikevicius


Yes, the way Reggie was treated upon retirement was terrible. :rolleyes:

Can't wait to see your video montage of the vendor guy who's going to retire.

3ballinhoop
07-26-2006, 07:32 AM
The only one who missed something is you, who apparently didn't read what i wrote properly. I mentioned the once in a decade or less players who have the fortune to actually be given a goodbye celebration by the fans, but they are not representative for the way players are sent off from the team and fans.

I can't believe that you out of pure conviction that the clearly sad way it is done in the NBA must be the right way, actually try to argue that it is ok to just let a player who played for your team for so many years walk away without anything being organized for him before he leaves Indianapolis. When he comes back to Indiana with Dallas, that will not be a goodbye, but a hello. I personally like to look at this kind of sport spectators as "fanalysts", with a little more distance and less pathos and love for the team and its players.

You know what the funny thing is? You guys probably read what i wrote and thought: "Damn, look at that european dude trying to critizise our NBA and fan culture, damn those europeans, next he will for sure come up with that we like to eat popcorn, fries and them big macs and sit silently in the arena instead of cheering on our team. Damn, I'm going to reply and tell him that we do it the right way".
Instead, you could have just thought that 3ballinhoop is indeed right here. Maybe it would be nice to organize something special for a longtime Pacer like Croshere, a goodbye that touches him and gives the fans a very memorable moment. Pacers fans love their team, and that should reflect in the goodbye one of the most loyal players gets.

Wouldn't that be a cooler happening for the real fans than thinking about all the numbers that make trades work or not work & possible stats & salary cap & projected scoring of the new lineup on a daily basis? How much emotion do you really want involved in the team?

Ron who?
07-26-2006, 07:33 AM
its amazing what the NBA does to a guy isnt it... from being a Hero to being basically garbage

Ron who?
07-26-2006, 07:34 AM
Talking about Sarunas of course

RWB
07-26-2006, 07:40 AM
3Ball, Croshere was paid well while here, he probably received acknowledgement EVERY day by fans who would see him on the street asking for autographs or a shout. He received applause when he would check into a game. He would receive applause when he would make a good play. Guess what???? That was enough.

I don't remember Austin coming up to me personally when I drop $300 a game and thanking me for helping him get paid for a job he loves. No, I think I'll hold back on the tears thank you very much.

SoupIsGood
07-26-2006, 08:08 AM
I think we need to pay attention to what he said, especially this.

Yes, and this

"If Jamaal came in in great shape"

He's obviously doubting that

3ballinhoop
07-26-2006, 08:13 AM
I understand your point, but please take a look at the video I posted, RWB. Don't you think that things like these are nice and make certain clubs, more special than others? I think it is interesting that the fans of the best basketball league in the world have a more distanced relation to players; it enforcens the view that the "fans" are customers and consumers of the league in a more pragmatic than emotional way.

What you write would apply to all sports and sportsfans. Why do you think that the clubs and fans in other leagues don't want to miss the opportunity to give a nice goodbye for the player and the fans respectively. It's a symbiotical thing, you know.

rexnom
07-26-2006, 08:20 AM
Please, your argumentation of finding an exception is the one of a child. If you believe you have a valid point, elaborate it.

Still, I will comment on it. Michael Ballack got a very nice and respectful goodbye ceremony connected to the celebration of the Bundesliga championship trophy. The speculations about his transfer had gone on for almost 8 months, which made a big part of the Bayern Munich fans dislike him.
A small part of the 65000 fans whistled, which really sucked, but doesn't in any way change the fact that he got a nice goodbye from the majority of the fans and the club.

I don't see what that has to do with a player like Croshere, who played almost a decade for the Pacers & then gets kicked out without any goodbyes from the same fans that claim to be the best in the world. The same thing goes, but to a lesser extent because of the fewer years spent in Indiana, for Anthony Johnson and Fred Jones.
I mean, the club should definitely organize something for their players, but if they don't, at least those great fans should.
It is astonishing and definitely an aspect of sports where the NBA can learn a lot from other leagues.
Oh I definitely agree with you, I was just kidding really with Ballack. And I thought he got a very classy greeting throughout the Cup from the German audience despite the fact that too much was put on his shoulders every single round. It's just a different gaming culture. Although the player turnover rate is higher in clubs in Europe, the players are appreciated more. Perhaps correctly so.

RWB
07-26-2006, 08:22 AM
I understand your point, but please take a look at the video I posted, RWB. Don't you think that things like these are nice and make certain clubs, more special than others?

Absolutely friend, but as others have noted our player 'Reggie' did receive the same type of celebration. Austin wasn't a Reggie, thus he would never receive the same farewell.

You mention Anthony Parker, do you have a video of his departure as well? If you do then all I can say is wow, the Macabi fans are unbelieveable.

FlavaDave
07-26-2006, 08:59 AM
Anthoney Parker and Sarunas were MVP players. Of course they got a goodbye.

And they weren't traded, they were leaving the country to play elsewhere.

Show me the video tribute to the 3rd guy off the bench that got traded and you might have a point.

Otherwise, I'll see your Sarunas tribute video and I'll raise you a Reggie Bentley.

marcd
07-26-2006, 09:03 AM
I understand your point, but please take a look at the video I posted, RWB. Don't you think that things like these are nice and make certain clubs, more special than others? I think it is interesting that the fans of the best basketball league in the world have a more distanced relation to players; it enforcens the view that the "fans" are customers and consumers of the league in a more pragmatic than emotional way.

What you write would apply to all sports and sportsfans. Why do you think that the clubs and fans in other leagues don't want to miss the opportunity to give a nice goodbye for the player and the fans respectively. It's a symbiotical thing, you know.


I think we all understand what you are saying and would love to do that, but I don't think you understand exactly how the NBA works. These trades are done all in the off-season. There is no warning and no warm up period. One morning you wake up and they are traded. That is why many players get a "hello" ovation when they return to their old team. This is our way of saying thanks since we don't have a chance to do it when they leave.

It sounds like the basketball and football clubs over there are aware that a player is leaving and have the time to plan things. The only things we have the opportunity to plan is retirement ceremonies. That is just the way it is all of the professional sports here. But you can be assured when AJ and Cro return here next year there will be plenty of signs and cheers for those two.

Our thanks won't go unsaid, just delayed a little bit due to the workings of the business of basketball.

MarcD

btowncolt
07-26-2006, 09:05 AM
Wow. How did this thread turn into this pile of garbage?




Anyway, it seems pretty clear that AJ wouldn't have accepted his role coming off the bench. And since we weren't able to trade Tinsley and we already know that any team starting a guy like Anthony Johnson or Fred Jones has to be a team that sucks, you might as well move on to different prospects.

3ballinhoop
07-26-2006, 09:06 AM
Unfortunately I don't have any live video from Parkers ceremony in Maccabi, but notable is that Sarunas was only there for 2 years, while Parker played for Maccabi much longer, while also being the teams MVP and extremely popular. So I'll just go ahead and predict that his goodbye was just as warm as Saras' was.
All I found on YouTube were goodbye highlight videos made by MTA fans, for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8yh-76dTg&search=anthony%20parker
"It's something unpredictable, but in the end it's right. I hope you had the time of your life!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yNNqAFq2Tw&NR

And yes, Maccabi has crazy fans. You find fans like that in most good Euroleague teams. It's part of european sports culture, but also american, on the college level.

btowncolt
07-26-2006, 09:09 AM
Seriously, can we keep all the ranting about how much better European fans are than Americans in the official Sarunas thread? It's already inundated with "intelligent" discussion about that very topic.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20137&page=24&highlight=official+sarunas+thread

Anthem
07-26-2006, 09:10 AM
And yes, Maccabi has crazy fans. You find fans like that in most good Euroleague teams. It's part of european sports culture, but also american, on the college level.
Who's your backup / third string PF right now?

Unclebuck
07-26-2006, 09:18 AM
A couple of points.

Let me get this straight. AJ can't be a starter on a good team but Tinsley can. If I only watched the games the past two seasons, I would think just the opposite is true. If you take away all prior expectations, and if you don't read what everyone else is saying, and just watch the games, I think most would come to the conclusion that AJ is the player that can be a starter on a good team, while Tinsley cannot.

If AJ is in the correct situation he certainly can be the starter on a good team. Put him on the Heat, start AJ and play him 30-35 minutes Pat Riley would love him, Shaq would love him and he'd fit perfectly into that team.

Put AJ on the Cavs and he'd be perfect for that team. And there are probably half dozen other good team where he could be the starter and be very good.

So I reject this whole notion. Just another myth that is said over and over again, to the point where everyone believes it

ChicagoJ
07-26-2006, 10:32 AM
Put AJ on the Cavs and he'd be perfect for that team. And there are probably half dozen other good team where he could be the starter and be very good.

And yet I'm the one accused of hyperbole? C'mon, there's no way you believe that.

I'll be AJ could shut down LBJ, too. Maybe that's why you think he'd be perfect there. :devil:

Frank Slade
07-26-2006, 10:35 AM
Kevin Lee mentioned last night he felt that AJ was certainly offended to a degree bringing in Sarunas, and that AJ may have forced teammates to choose sides, causing some definite friction.

I am not sure if that was Kevin's observation , or something he heard, but he is usually not one to just throw around idle gossip. :confused:

True or not the set up with all three PG's looking to start was not the best idea.

Bball
07-26-2006, 10:44 AM
Kevin Lee mentioned last night he felt that AJ was certainly offended to a degree bringing in Sarunas, and that AJ may have forced teammates to choose sides, causing some definite friction.

I am not sure if that was Kevin's observation , or something he heard, but he is usually not one to just throw around idle gossip. :confused:

True or not the set up with all three PG's looking to start was not the best idea.

And for that we have management to blame. Why they couldn't complete the plan, whatever it might've been, is the question. They had to know they were flirting with disaster coming into the season with 4 PGs. There had to be a plan that negated that. I mean, there had to be... right?

-Bball

bulletproof
07-26-2006, 10:49 AM
And for that we have management to blame. Why they couldn't complete the plan, whatever it might've been, is the question.

They were confused and playing with spaghetti?

Bball
07-26-2006, 10:54 AM
They were confused and playing with spaghetti?

Throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks? Could be...

-Bball

PacerMan
07-26-2006, 12:10 PM
I'm positive O'Neill was part of the problem, at least. Rick's not exactly a social dynamite either.


I'm told that Rick is actually quite funny within his circle of friends.

grace
07-26-2006, 12:16 PM
Show me one professional player who likes it when the team brings in someone to take his place. Maybe the player doesn't mind when he knows it will be a fair competiton for the starting possition, but when the newbie is the boss' pet project I don't blame the guy for being ticked.

PacerMan
07-26-2006, 12:16 PM
In the first part of the interview, you clearly sent the jealousy Anthony Johnson feels towards other players such as Saras; he always thought that he doesn't get enough respect for what he does, and that results in a chronical state of frustration.
It is possible that the Pacers realized they wouldn't be able to give Johnson what he wants and preferred to move him on instead of keeping an incontent player.



I believe that he is indeed critizising Carlisle here. Yes, Carlisle liked him and gave him a lot of chances. But I think he, as a guy who has gotten to where he is with hard work, hates to see how some people on this team can do whatever they want and get away with it, because Carlisle surely won't intervene. AJ has seen all the bad character stuff Tinsley has pulled & and all the pseudo-injuries, & still, once he feels like coming back to play, he is per definitionem the starter, no matter how much he actually sucks.

Now, just let me get to one more point, that I hope all of you will adress!
I think that it is more than shameful to see how players are treated by the clubs and by the trade modus in the NBA. You just lost one player who gave his best for this club for 3 years, you lost another player, who played for the Pacers for, oh I don't know, almost a decade?
Where are these players now? They are just gone, and you didn't give them a proper departure at all, did you? No official goodbye ceremony, no thank you from the fans, nothing?
Many of you often say that Indiana has the best basketball fans in the world, probably the best sports fans in the whole world. If that is the case, how come there is no salute, no nothing to two players that loyally played for the Pacers for over 10 years combined? I even completely forgot about Fred Jones, who was thrown away without a word from one day to the other, without the fans organizing anything for him.

In Europe, fans say goodbye to their players in an appropriate way, especially the ones that have given the fans and the club a lot. I think it is unbelievable that a guy like Austin Croshere is just dropped without a word from the fans. It looks to me like the only players that get a decent farewell from their clubs and most of all fans, are the few ones, who get their jersey retired, which happens once in 10 years.

When Saras left Maccabi Tel Aviv after only two seasons, the Maccabi fan clubs made approximately 10 different homage videos for him, and he was heavily celebrated with standing ovations with one of those videos being played for him on the bigscreen. So was Anthony Parker when he left.
Have a look, this is what fans that care for their players do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hteh7EYXC3o&search=jasikevicius

That's a tradition that the US doesn't share then. While it sounds nice in general, perhaps those fans care TOO much.
It's just a game.
And they're paid a lifetimes wage EACH SEASON.
Pro athletes are interchangable parts, at any given moment.
Don't shed too many tears for Austin. :)

PacerMan
07-26-2006, 12:21 PM
Please, your argumentation of finding an exception is the one of a child. If you believe you have a valid point, elaborate it.

Still, I will comment on it. Michael Ballack got a very nice and respectful goodbye ceremony connected to the celebration of the Bundesliga championship trophy. The speculations about his transfer had gone on for almost 8 months, which made a big part of the Bayern Munich fans dislike him.
A small part of the 65000 fans whistled, which really sucked, but doesn't in any way change the fact that he got a nice goodbye from the majority of the fans and the club.

I don't see what that has to do with a player like Croshere, who played almost a decade for the Pacers & then gets kicked out without any goodbyes from the same fans that claim to be the best in the world. The same thing goes, but to a lesser extent because of the fewer years spent in Indiana, for Anthony Johnson and Fred Jones.
I mean, the club should definitely organize something for their players, but if they don't, at least those great fans should.
It is astonishing and definitely an aspect of sports where the NBA can learn a lot from other leagues.

hmmm, but then we see european soccer fans have great brawls in the stands, all because they care so much about their team. Moderation in all things.

Unclebuck
07-26-2006, 01:10 PM
And yet I'm the one accused of hyperbole? C'mon, there's no way you believe that.

I'll be AJ could shut down LBJ, too. Maybe that's why you think he'd be perfect there. :devil:



You don't think Pat Riley and Mike Brown would love to have AJ on their teams and don't you think AJ would start for both of those teams. I certainly do.

btowncolt
07-26-2006, 01:13 PM
You don't think Pat Riley and Mike Brown would love to have AJ on their teams and don't you think AJ would start for both of those teams. I certainly do.

It's good to see they've relaxed the regulations regarding shooting heroine into your eyelid while you're on the clock at the new job.

jjbjjbjjb
07-26-2006, 02:08 PM
When Saras left Maccabi Tel Aviv after only two seasons, the Maccabi fan clubs made approximately 10 different homage videos for him, and he was heavily celebrated with standing ovations with one of those videos being played for him on the bigscreen. So was Anthony Parker when he left.
Have a look, this is what fans that care for their players do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hteh7EYXC3o&search=jasikevicius

Can you offer an example for a player that didn't lead a team to multiple championships?

mugsy27
07-26-2006, 02:14 PM
hey jjbjjbjjb...i think its spelled boogey man (with 2 o's).

bogeyman sounds like a very good golfer.

Lord Helmet
07-26-2006, 02:27 PM
its amazing what the NBA does to a guy isnt it... from being a Hero to being basically garbage
No one in the NBA is garbage.

jjbjjbjjb
07-26-2006, 02:34 PM
hey jjbjjbjjb...i think its spelled boogey man (with 2 o's).

bogeyman sounds like a very good golfer.

Hey, Mugsy, there's this invention called the Internet, and on this invention you can actually check your facts before you call out other people. :-p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman

naptownmenace
07-27-2006, 03:13 PM
A couple of points.

Let me get this straight. AJ can't be a starter on a good team but Tinsley can. If I only watched the games the past two seasons, I would think just the opposite is true. If you take away all prior expectations, and if you don't read what everyone else is saying, and just watch the games, I think most would come to the conclusion that AJ is the player that can be a starter on a good team, while Tinsley cannot.

If AJ is in the correct situation he certainly can be the starter on a good team. Put him on the Heat, start AJ and play him 30-35 minutes Pat Riley would love him, Shaq would love him and he'd fit perfectly into that team.

Put AJ on the Cavs and he'd be perfect for that team. And there are probably half dozen other good team where he could be the starter and be very good.

So I reject this whole notion. Just another myth that is said over and over again, to the point where everyone believes it

I'll second that, Buck! :thumbsup:

Tinsley, even when healthy, is a train wreck most of the time. Sure he'll have an 11 assist 20 point game once every 10 games or so but considering that he only averages about 50 games played a year that's maybe 5 games of that type. The remainder of the games will feature the Tinman blowing 2-on-1 fastbreak situations, tons of missed freethrows, and more blown layups than any PG should ever miss.

He has talent but he's such a mental liability that it just doesn't matter.

SoupIsGood
07-27-2006, 11:39 PM
No way! When Tins has been healthy lately, he and JO have been a deadly combo. Just think what Tins and JO could do with Danny, Al, and Quis next to them.

That said, Tins being healthy is a real stretch.

Naptown_Seth
07-28-2006, 01:00 AM
Anthoney Parker and Sarunas were MVP players. Of course they got a goodbye.

And they weren't traded, they were leaving the country to play elsewhere.

Show me the video tribute to the 3rd guy off the bench that got traded and you might have a point.

Otherwise, I'll see your Sarunas tribute video and I'll raise you a Reggie Bentley.
:woot2:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/bc47.jpg

Naptown_Seth
07-28-2006, 01:01 AM
No way! When Tins has been healthy lately, he and JO have been a deadly combo. Just think what Tins and JO could do with Danny, Al, and Quis next to them.

That said, Tins being healthy is a real stretcher. :rimshot:
Fixed. :D


(this coming from a supporter of :crutch: )

Anthem
07-30-2006, 12:46 AM
I think that it is more than shameful to see how players are treated by the clubs and by the trade modus in the NBA. You just lost one player who gave his best for this club for 3 years, you lost another player, who played for the Pacers for, oh I don't know, almost a decade? Where are these players now? They are just gone, and you didn't give them a proper departure at all, did you? No official goodbye ceremony, no thank you from the fans, nothing?

In Europe, fans say goodbye to their players in an appropriate way, especially the ones that have given the fans and the club a lot. I think it is unbelievable that a guy like Austin Croshere is just dropped without a word from the fans. It looks to me like the only players that get a decent farewell from their clubs and most of all fans, are the few ones, who get their jersey retired, which happens once in 10 years.
:whistle: Still waiting for the Maceo Baston goodbye party.

grace
07-30-2006, 11:37 AM
I think that it is more than shameful to see how players are treated by the clubs and by the trade modus in the NBA. You just lost one player who gave his best for this club for 3 years, you lost another player, who played for the Pacers for, oh I don't know, almost a decade? Where are these players now? They are just gone, and you didn't give them a proper departure at all, did you? No official goodbye ceremony, no thank you from the fans, nothing?

Dude, did you not see the Austin appreciation thread? I'd start one for AJ, but it would get all mucked up by the people who didn't like him. I'd go to Conseco when the Mavs come to play just so I could show my appreciation to Austin and AJ, but after that Phoenix came last year I may never go to a Pacers game ever again.

If the Pacers threw a party every time a player left the team wouldn't have any money for the players who are still on the team.

If it will make you feel better I will personally host the "Goodbye Cabbage" party at Pizza King.

PacerMan
07-30-2006, 11:39 AM
Wow. How did this thread turn into this pile of garbage?




Anyway, it seems pretty clear that AJ wouldn't have accepted his role coming off the bench. And since we weren't able to trade Tinsley and we already know that any team starting a guy like Anthony Johnson or Fred Jones has to be a team that sucks, you might as well move on to different prospects.


And just how do we know that any team starting AJ or Freddie has to be a team that sucks?

PacerMan
07-30-2006, 11:40 AM
A couple of points.

Let me get this straight. AJ can't be a starter on a good team but Tinsley can. If I only watched the games the past two seasons, I would think just the opposite is true. If you take away all prior expectations, and if you don't read what everyone else is saying, and just watch the games, I think most would come to the conclusion that AJ is the player that can be a starter on a good team, while Tinsley cannot.

If AJ is in the correct situation he certainly can be the starter on a good team. Put him on the Heat, start AJ and play him 30-35 minutes Pat Riley would love him, Shaq would love him and he'd fit perfectly into that team.

Put AJ on the Cavs and he'd be perfect for that team. And there are probably half dozen other good team where he could be the starter and be very good.

So I reject this whole notion. Just another myth that is said over and over again, to the point where everyone believes it

And I'd contend that Freddie would be a fine starter (assuming he grows into the role over the season) on a fast paced running team.

Anthem
07-31-2006, 12:49 AM
:whistle: Still waiting for the Maceo Baston goodbye party.
:whistle:

bulldog
07-31-2006, 01:00 AM
A lot of unnecessary venom from the American fans.

Can't we just admit that how European fans care for their teams is laudable, that its wonderful to see such dedication and appreciation for these guys who give their blood, sweat and tears to entertain us?

After all, we all complain about how the NBA has become just business, about free agency and uncaring ownership. Too much player movement, too many guys leave, it's sad to see guys like Shaq and Payton get booted out of town without so much as a thank you ceremony from the fans.

Let me say, 3ballinhoop, that its very nice what you guys do, that I wish players, fans and coaches stuck around longer here, that they didn't just go around the league finding the team that would pay them the most money, and that when they did leave, they established enough of a bond with the community that a lot of people genuinely cared. But the NBA is what it is.

Hopefully someone else has enough confidence to see these outpourings of support for what they are, appreciate them as a unique and great aspect of European sport that doesn't automatically diminish American fans, rather than immediately recoiling against anything with the word "European" in it.

Anthem
07-31-2006, 01:26 AM
A lot of unnecessary venom from the American fans.
Hey, I applaud what they did for Saras. Very cool.

What annoys me is coming into an American discussion board of an American sport and criticizing American fans for something the rest of the world is just as guilty of. Double standards are not very cool. Here's his original post:

Many of you often say that Indiana has the best basketball fans in the world, probably the best sports fans in the whole world. If that is the case, how come there is no salute, no nothing to two players that loyally played for the Pacers for over 10 years combined? I even completely forgot about Fred Jones, who was thrown away without a word from one day to the other, without the fans organizing anything for him.
We're not real fans because Croshere, AJ, and Fred didn't each get their own going-away party? Give me a break.

Peck
07-31-2006, 01:28 AM
Dude, did you not see the Austin appreciation thread? I'd start one for AJ, but it would get all mucked up by the people who didn't like him. I'd go to Conseco when the Mavs come to play just so I could show my appreciation to Austin and AJ, but after that Phoenix came last year I may never go to a Pacers game ever again.

If the Pacers threw a party every time a player left the team wouldn't have any money for the players who are still on the team.

If it will make you feel better I will personally host the "Goodbye Cabbage" party at Pizza King.


I'm holding you to this.:D Maybe you could at least remember those of us who want pineapple on our peperonni, unlike that slacker Jose.

Naptown_Seth
07-31-2006, 01:55 AM
:whistle: Still waiting for the Maceo Baston goodbye party.
:duh:


:brilliant

btowncolt
07-31-2006, 11:03 AM
:whistle:

:whistle:

grace
07-31-2006, 11:17 AM
I'm holding you to this.:D Maybe you could at least remember those of us who want pineapple on our pepperoni, unlike that slacker Jose.

So should I put you down for cabbage and pepperoni?

As soon as I said I'd host the party I thought "Larry would do it just to make me have to do go through with it." He hates me you know.

Bball
07-31-2006, 11:35 AM
So should I put you down for cabbage and pepperoni?

As soon as I said I'd host the party I thought "Larry would do it just to make me have to do go through with it." He hates me you know.


Bird has you on his 'ignore' list so I wouldn't worry too much about it... ;)

-Bball