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D-BONE
06-28-2006, 10:21 PM
Or is there a legit rationale for the S. Williams pick?

GO!!!!!
06-28-2006, 10:24 PM
and it begins.... the Questioning of TPTB

if they could see us know they would strike us all down with a THUNDER BOLT !!!

Young
06-28-2006, 10:25 PM
Or is there a legit rationale for the S. Williams pick?

Crazy and stupid.

You know I liked what Bird was doing before this. I know that this was a weak draft and some might say take the kid with the most upside but I don't see upside in Shawne. He is a great athlete but from the few games I saw of him and everything i've heard and read he doesn't have much of any skills or focus.

I don't see where he fits in with this team.

Something major better happen soon. Rather we trade JO, tell Peja to find a new team, replace Carlise with someone who likes to run I don't care but this pick right here is a flag that says we are re building.

Jermaniac
06-28-2006, 10:28 PM
Good God, ITS A ROOKIE THIS WASNT A ALL TIME GREATS TRADE. The guy is 20 years old he doesnt have to play right now this doesnt have anything to do with Danny,Peja or JO.

Trader Joe
06-28-2006, 10:31 PM
I hate the pick. Hate it, hate it, hate it. WHy him? I could live with it if not for passing on Marcus.

D-BONE
06-28-2006, 10:34 PM
Well, I like the potential and athleticism. I'm still wondering if he can't log some minutes a 2, as well. Although LBJ in his brief interview w/the ESPN crew talked about him as a 3/4 he expected to see playing alongside DG in the future.

On the other hand, we obviously bypassed some more mature, NBA-ready, proven guys that were rated ahead of him.

I, too, wonder if the move means something's afoot.

I also wonder if it's not a Bender II type pick w/ too much emphasis on potential.

Hicks
06-28-2006, 10:34 PM
I've lost my faith in Larry Bird, and to a degree Donnie Walsh for letting him do it. We could have had any PG we wanted from this draft. Any of them.

Unclebuck
06-28-2006, 10:37 PM
Before anyone jumps out the window, let's wait until he plays one game.


One thing I don't like is when fans judge a draft pick on the night of the draft based primarily on what the announcers on ESPN say

PaceBalls
06-28-2006, 10:40 PM
I don't think Larry and friends wanted a computer stealing overweight PG with a bad attitude.

I, for one, think they have done alot more research on this guy, and the players available, than I have. And who cares what the talking heads say? It shows TPTB know what they want and dont care about any stupid mock drafts.

Cheers for that

As for the pick? I'll have to wait till next season to really know about how good this guy is. But since Bender every pick has turned out good IMO, and even that was good at the time.

don't worry, ye of little faith

sweabs
06-28-2006, 10:40 PM
I realize some of you are upset with passing over on Marcus Williams, but for me at least, I just wasn't prepared to deal with another guy who had "character issues" along with supposed work ethic problems.

Anyway, I think the Williams pick is a glimpse into what Larry's mode of thinking is for the future of this team. He spoke in his interview about possibly seeing a Granger/Williams frontline. Even if it isn't Williams at that 4 spot (or 3 spot), you can see that he wants versatility, length, and quickness at those forward positions. That's obviously what he's aiming for - he's not concerned about size, but instead trying to move in a direction that is more geared towards today's style/pace of game.

However, this would also mean that our centre would not be a true centre - and most likely could be someone like a slimmed down JO...and I'm just not sure if JO would appreciate that. But a frontline of Peja/Granger/JO with Williams subbing in for Granger/Peja to keep the versatility up front is kind of what I think Bird had in mind here.

Diesel_81
06-28-2006, 10:43 PM
I think Shawne Williams has a ton of upside, I also think he has the ball handling skills to play the two guard spot, but if we have no intention to play him at the two then Im not quite sure what were going to do with him. Granger is our man at smallforward, I don't think Williams is a powerforward he's way to perimeter oriented for that and then theres Peja as well.

As far as Marcus Williams goes, the pacers like many teams were scared off by him because of the incident if it wasn't for that he would have been a top 10 pick.I can't blame Bird and company for not picking Williams. Any player stupid enough to steal computers when they are considered lottery type talents should have they're head examined and not somebody I would want on my team.

vapacersfan
06-28-2006, 10:45 PM
I hope your right rcarey, but dude needs to get locked in a weight room!...

Hicks
06-28-2006, 10:50 PM
Unclebuck, I'm not upset based on what the ESPN guys said (though that didn't help). I'm upset because on any respected draft site (ESPN, nbadraft.net, etc.) they all say this kid is a shorter, less athletic, Jonathan Bender: All talent, no brain, no heart, disappears, and not ready for the NBA.

D-BONE
06-28-2006, 10:51 PM
I'm OK with the pick. He's a guy I thought might be a sleeper.

Questions:
Is this really Bird's original mystery guy as he intimated in the interview? I suspect so.

Is RC really the big "new" NBA guys he professed to according to UB? If so, I'd love to see a sleeker JO at 5 some. Yet I'm not convinced RC buys into that in his heart of hearts.

Roaming Gnome
06-28-2006, 10:52 PM
Unclebuck, I'm not upset based on what the ESPN guys said (though that didn't help). I'm upset because on any respected draft site (ESPN, nbadraft.net, etc.) they all say this kid is a shorter, less athletic, Jonathan Bender: All talent, no brain, no heart, disappears, and not ready for the NBA.
Thanks Hicks...

I thought we were done picking up empty headed morons for players. I am so tired of these guys with a goose egg for basketball IQ!

Please...Less athleticism, decent talent, & more brains....BETTER PLAYER!!

Unclebuck
06-28-2006, 10:53 PM
Unclebuck, I'm not upset based on what the ESPN guys said (though that didn't help). I'm upset because on any respected draft site (ESPN, nbadraft.net, etc.) they all say this kid is a shorter, less athletic, Jonathan Bender: All talent, no brain, no heart, disappears, and not ready for the NBA.

Well, I've never seen him play and I haven't read all those sites, so I don't know

Carlisle did say that he had a great workout for the Pacers.

Evan_The_Dude
06-28-2006, 10:58 PM
Did anybody other than me listen to the way Larry Bird worded his interview? He said something of the sort of Williams and Granger play the same position and can be interchanged with one another. Notice there was no mention of Peja there. Last I remember, Peja was the starter, not Granger (before playoff time that is)...

Hicks
06-28-2006, 11:06 PM
Well, now that I'm reading some more, other sources say he has a lot of heart, knows the game, etc. I'm just f-ing confused right now, but I have a bad feeling about this. We should have taken a guard.

Unclebuck
06-28-2006, 11:10 PM
Bird must have really wanted this player, this must be the player he had his eye on, because this does not fit the profile of his previous drafts. He has the past few years taken experienced college players, so that tells me Bird thinks very highly of Williams

Evan_The_Dude
06-28-2006, 11:21 PM
What they said about Granger: http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=86


What they're saying now about Williams: http://www.nba.com/draft2006/profiles/ShawneWilliams.html

I think we just got a more raw version of Granger.
He might not be a "right now" guy, but I think he might be security in case Peja asks for more than they're willing to pay.

bulletproof
06-28-2006, 11:27 PM
He might not be a "right now" guy, but I think he might be security in case Peja asks for more than they're willing to pay.

That, or if KG is shopped, we'll make a move for him and that would probably require Danny if we have any chance of nabbing him.

Pacersfan46
06-28-2006, 11:31 PM
I'm upset, I really wanted Marcus Williams. I don't care about the "incident". He's said he learned from it, and now thinks "2 or 3 times" before making any decisions. Where as before he just did whatever he felt like. I imagine he learned from it.

Anyway, I remember watching Memphis, and seeing something I liked in Shawne. Something I liked more than Carney. I'd tuned in to see Carney, and Shawne stole the show for me, but I still don't get it.

Is Peja part of a sign and trade? I hope so, I don't want to draft a guy just for him to sit on his can. Anyway, at least it wasn't JJ Redick. :) :)

FrenchConnection
06-28-2006, 11:32 PM
I hate the pick. Hate it, hate it, hate it. WHy him? I could live with it if not for passing on Marcus.

Marcus Williams was really out of shape for his workouts and stated that it did not matter. This is way he dropped. We cannot have any more lazy players on the team.

Pacersfan46
06-28-2006, 11:36 PM
That, or if KG is shopped, we'll make a move for him and that would probably require Danny if we have any chance of nabbing him.

I was thinking this, or Allen Iverson too. Then I realized that Philly took Brewer, and so where would Granger, or Peja play there?

I'll pray it's SOMETHING though. I want this team shaken up.

D-BONE
06-28-2006, 11:44 PM
The White trade I really like. Hope he can really play some perimeter D for us. At least this reveals that TPTB did have an approach: athleticism. I think we have to wait and see what happens going forward before we really judge this draft. On the surface, I'm satisfied.

Pacersfan46
06-28-2006, 11:46 PM
White trade? What did I miss?

Damn this hotel thing, I either have to watch the draft or be on the WebTV, I can't do both.

Did we get James White?

bulletproof
06-28-2006, 11:58 PM
Si.

Diesel_81
06-29-2006, 12:46 AM
The White trade I really like. Hope he can really play some perimeter D for us. At least this reveals that TPTB did have an approach: athleticism. I think we have to wait and see what happens going forward before we really judge this draft. On the surface, I'm satisfied.

White will be a fan favorite. Especially on the defensive end. Offensively he has improved but I expect that to be a roller coaster. Very raw on that end but if we played more of a high tempo pace he could really contribute. Hell if he played for Pheonix he could probably be an all star with the type of style they run.

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 12:53 AM
Thanks Hicks...

I thought we were done picking up empty headed morons for players. I am so tired of these guys with a goose egg for basketball IQ!

Please...Less athleticism, decent talent, & more brains....BETTER PLAYER!!

Amen.

I think the only word I said for about fifteen minutes after that pick was "****."

f:censored:ck.

Can we please stop drafting dumb players.

This reminds me strongly of the Fred Jones draft, where we took him about ten-fifteen spots too early.

Memo to Pacers management: if you've got your sights set on a player that nobody else wants, then trade down to get him.

And don't make up this "we thought he was going at '13'" crap.

I assume this kid is going to spend a lot of time in the NBDL. Maybe that's his hope - since that option was never available to Bender.

SoupIsGood
06-29-2006, 12:56 AM
Amen.

I think the only word I said for about fifteen minutes after that pick was "****."

f:censored:ck.

Can we please stop drafting dumb players.

This reminds me strongly of the Fred Jones draft, where we took him about ten-fifteen spots too early.

Memo to Pacers management: if you've got your sights set on a player that nobody else wants, then trade down to get him.

And don't make up this "we thought he was going at '13'" crap.

I assume this kid is going to spend a lot of time in the NBDL. Maybe that's his hope - since that option was never available to Bender.



Have you even seen him play?

Lets hold off on calling him dumb.

jjbjjbjjb
06-29-2006, 01:11 AM
One thing this draft proved beyond a doubt: Bird had zero interest in Redick.

The presumption of many fans that Bird wants a team of all short, unathletic (white) guys who can shoot died and was buried tonight; may it rest in silent peace.

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 01:15 AM
I see what's going on...

Chad Ford had him going to the Knicks @ the 20-pick in version 5.0, then he moved up ahead of us in version 5.1 (and like most scouts/ analysts, he questioned his "mental approach.")

We must've taken him just to mess with Isiah - because Isiah, in turn, made an even worse pick than we did.

For the record, I've never seen a player from the Memphis program that I thought even had a low bballIQ. They've all been exceptionally dumb on the court, from Keith Lee all the way to today. Maybe Penny H's bballIQ was average, at best. Vinnie Askew? Dumb. Dajuan Wagner? When "Socks" Perry and Lo Wright are the brightest players your school has put into the NBA in the past couple of decades, that's a concern...

Pig Nash
06-29-2006, 01:19 AM
Agreed on one thing. We beat Isaiah at least, not like that's saying much. :sigh:

tadscout
06-29-2006, 01:23 AM
Amen.

I think the only word I said for about fifteen minutes after that pick was "****."

f:censored:ck.

Can we please stop drafting dumb players.

This reminds me strongly of the Fred Jones draft, where we took him about ten-fifteen spots too early.

Memo to Pacers management: if you've got your sights set on a player that nobody else wants, then trade down to get him.

And don't make up this "we thought he was going at '13'" crap.

I assume this kid is going to spend a lot of time in the NBDL. Maybe that's his hope - since that option was never available to Bender.

Look here- in Chad Fords Mock Draft 5.3

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center><CENTER>http://espn.go.com/i/nba/draft2005/numbers/13.gif</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/phi.gif
Philadelphia</CENTER>
</TD><TD width="28%"><CENTER>http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0523/nba_simmons_cedric.jpg
Cedric Simmons (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2006&playerId=18956)</CENTER>
</TD><TD vAlign=center>Position: PF
Height: 6-10
Weight: 223
Age: 20
School: NC State

</TD></TR>



<TR class=oddrow vAlign=center><TD colSpan=4>The skinny: The Sixers have a lot of needs.


They've been trying to move up in the draft to get Shelden Williams, but to no avail. If the Celtics somehow can get their hands on Williams at No. 7, they could deal him to Philly.


The talk is that the Sixers have fallen for two players: Simmons and Shawne Williams. Simmons reminds GM Billy King of a young Theo Ratliff. With Samuel Dalembert on the block, the Sixers might need another athletic, shot-blocking, rebounding presence.


Shawne Williams is not a perfect fit, but he has a rare combination of size, athleticism and shooting ability.


The Sixers have the option of moving down in the draft a few spots and still being able to get him.

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center><CENTER>http://espn.go.com/i/nba/draft2005/numbers/15.gif</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/nor.gif
NO/OC Hornets
(via Milwaukee)</CENTER>
</TD><TD width="28%"><CENTER>http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0523/nba_williams_shawne.jpg
Shawne Williams (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2006&playerId=18939)</CENTER>
</TD><TD vAlign=center>Position: SF
Height: 6-9
Weight: 227
Age: 20
School: Memphis

</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=center><TD colSpan=4>The skinny: We've had Rodney Carney here for weeks, but the word this afternoon is that Williams is the guy, regardless of whether Carney is still on the board.


Williams would be an "upside" pick. He has the talent to be a top-eight guy, but his mental approach is questionable.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
--------------------------------
</TD></TR>
</TBODY></TABLE>
So LB wasn't making anything up! Many teams were drooling over him, just players they didn't expect to be there at their picks were there instead...

JayRedd
06-29-2006, 01:25 AM
Initial reactions was WTF!!??!?!??!! But I've actually never really watched the guy play closely at all. And if this leads to us not re-signing Peja as somebody mentioned based on Bird's interview comments, I'm all for it.

As for White: At least we got another shot at winning the Dunk Contest. I think his "through-the-legs from the free-throw line" will get it done. Nice to know we'll have somebody doing something at All Star weekend.

Overall grade: W for "whatever".

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 01:29 AM
Maybe right... maybe his stock was really rising today.

Seems odd - that type of rapid inflation in a guy's stock is also Bender-esque, and doesn't make me feel warm-and-fuzzy.

After years of scouting guys (or at least months) - a few GMs fall in love with a player based on a workout or two - think the kid has the potential to be a star - and then waste a pick too early on a guy that proves to flame out. Happens more than once every draft. Meanwhile, they pass over guys that will be less flashy but have solid NBA careers.

Young
06-29-2006, 01:36 AM
After years of scouting guys (or at least months) - a few GMs fall in love with a player based on a workout or two - think the kid has the potential to be a star - and then waste a pick too early on a guy that proves to flame out. Happens more than once every draft. Meanwhile, they pass over guys that will be less flashy but have solid NBA careers.

I understand what you are saying Jay and I agree with you to a point but I think that this was a year that we could afford to take a risk.

When you look at all the possiable prospects there were going to be some question marks with pretty much all of them IMO. And really, the only guy who is likely to be better than Shawne is Marcus. Now rather Shawne lives up to his potential is unknown, it's up to him to do that.

It's not as bad of a pick as I first though. Shanwe defiantly wasn't in my top 5 of choices, but we didn't do to bad. He isn't no impact player and he probably won't be for 2-3 years but give him some time. We could afford to take a risk in this draft. We didn't pass on anyone to special.

blanket
06-29-2006, 01:53 AM
The collegehoops.net site, which follows every minutia of college ball, ranks Shawne Williams with four stars, as a "consistent NBA starter." The only players from this draft they rated as high were all picked in the lottery. Not even Marcus Williams rated as high as Shawne. By position, they rated him as the third best SF in the draft.

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/Draft/2006/toptenbyposition.htm

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/Draft/2006/toptenbyposition.htm


Consensus: Williams unique package of size and abilities make him a sure fire lottery pick whatever year he enters the draft. His versatility and excellent defensive skills make him a threat at both ends of the floor and this should continue at the next level – the NBA.

Jermaniac
06-29-2006, 02:10 AM
We love Bird & Co.? OHH YES

Arcadian
06-29-2006, 02:19 AM
I'm no Bird fan but I'm going to give the draft picks the benefit of the doubt until I see them play.

bulletproof
06-29-2006, 02:29 AM
I'm no Bird fan but I'm going to give the draft picks the benefit of the doubt until I see them play.

How dare you!

You're actually going to wait until you see them play before you pass judgment? What are you going to say next? That you're going to wait until you see what we do this summer before you form an opinion about our prospects next season? Preposterous!

Fireball Kid
06-29-2006, 02:39 AM
No Marcus? No Jordan? No Quincy? Pfft, Larry, you dissapoint me.

indytoad
06-29-2006, 02:41 AM
Anyway, I think the Williams pick is a glimpse into what Larry's mode of thinking is for the future of this team. He spoke in his interview about possibly seeing a Granger/Williams frontline. Even if it isn't Williams at that 4 spot (or 3 spot), you can see that he wants versatility, length, and quickness at those forward positions. That's obviously what he's aiming for - he's not concerned about size, but instead trying to move in a direction that is more geared towards today's style/pace of game.

Didn't we try this once, with the much-ballyhooed and almost entirely theoretical O'Neal/Bender/Harrington lineup? I was hoping we had given up on that idea and were going to build a real NBA team, but I guess that's not the case.

IndyToad
Sensational

Chauncey
06-29-2006, 06:44 AM
One thing I don't like is when fans judge a draft pick on the night of the draft based primarily on what the announcers on ESPN say

Unlike some people (YOU) most of us actually watch college and high school basketball and can form valid opinions about players before they play an NBA game. So while your opinion is absolutely invalid since you admittedly don't watch anything but the NBA, others' are not.

FrenchConnection
06-29-2006, 09:09 AM
The kid averaged over 13 ppg and 6 rpg as a freshman on a really talented team. Take a look at this:
http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9083052
I don't trust Gregg Doyle anymore than I trust Andy Katz, but he is not alone with his assessment. I am not sure that I like the pick, but I do know that this was not as much of a reach as some of you think. You all say another Bender? I would take Bender without the injuries at the #17 in a weak draft.

D-BONE
06-29-2006, 09:15 AM
You all say another Bender? I would take Bender without the injuries at the #17 in a weak draft.

True dat. While Bender must be considered a bust based on his failure to achieve anywhere near his potential, I don't think you can hold the brass accountable for not forseeing his devastating injuries. It was immensely frustrating of course.

vapacersfan
06-29-2006, 09:22 AM
How dare you!

You're actually going to wait until you see them play before you pass judgment? What are you going to say next? That you're going to wait until you see what we do this summer before you form an opinion about our prospects next season? Preposterous!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

SoupIsGood
06-29-2006, 09:23 AM
How dare you!

You're actually going to wait until you see them play before you pass judgment? What are you going to say next? That you're going to wait until you see what we do this summer before you form an opinion about our prospects next season? Preposterous!

Word.

I have a feeling Bird won't look as crazy in some people's eyes once we see these guys play.

vapacersfan
06-29-2006, 09:28 AM
Unlike some people (YOU) most of us actually watch college and high school basketball and can form valid opinions about players before they play an NBA game. So while your opinion is absolutely invalid since you admittedly don't watch anything but the NBA, others' are not.


:rolleyes:

Yeah, because watching a guy in HS and in college automatically makes you an expert on how he will do.

Its a good thing there are no such things as sleepers in a draft, or busts for that matter. Oh wait...........

PacerMan
06-29-2006, 09:29 AM
Maybe right... maybe his stock was really rising today.

Seems odd - that type of rapid inflation in a guy's stock is also Bender-esque, and doesn't make me feel warm-and-fuzzy.

After years of scouting guys (or at least months) - a few GMs fall in love with a player based on a workout or two - think the kid has the potential to be a star - and then waste a pick too early on a guy that proves to flame out. Happens more than once every draft. Meanwhile, they pass over guys that will be less flashy but have solid NBA careers.


You're joking right? Like they guys in charge of 100 million dollar operations are just going to go with what they see in a couple of workouts?? C'mon, I bet you they've seen every game both guys played. Repeatedly.

FrenchConnection
06-29-2006, 09:32 AM
What happens is that we all get locked into a certain player and then get upset when the pick goes in a different way. For example, the Lakers's fans are really upset that Mitch took Jordan Farmar over James White, who they had all "scouted." Farmar may very well be the steal of this draft and become a Tony Parker-like bargain, but for right now they are all really upset over Flight. We wanted a PG, and when Bird did not take one we all blew our top. Even if this does not work out, I am glad that we did not take Markus Williams, a player that did not care enough to be in good shape for workout that could have given him millions of extra dollars. How commited is the kid going to be after he signs his contract?

Fool
06-29-2006, 09:37 AM
You're joking right? Like they guys in charge of 100 million dollar operations are just going to go with what they see in a couple of workouts?? C'mon, I bet you they've seen every game both guys played. Repeatedly.

They do.

McKeyFan
06-29-2006, 10:00 AM
I would take Bender without the injuries at the #17 in a weak draft.

Not me.

Back to the issue of basketball IQ, Bender had very little. Ultimately, it is more important than talent.

I hope our top pick passes muster on BBall IQ.

Bball
06-29-2006, 10:03 AM
I don't see the Bender connection here that some want to talk about. There's a difference of picking number 5 than number 17. Especially in a weak draft. More importantly there's a difference in what you do when you are closer to the lottery rather than when you are truly one of the top teams in the NBA (and a legitimate contender).

Being this much closer to the cellar you'd hope the team could develop this player and 'throw him to the wolves' enough to make use of him and see any 'potential' on the court of real games. Kind of like they gave David Harrison a consistent role to further his development and... errrr... ummmm wait a minute... What consistent role?

I mentioned Carlisle needing to change by mentioning whether a leopard changing his spots (in another post). Well, this team (from the brass to the ballkids) may need to 'change its spots' as well. We may need to suffer some losses in the name of growth. That can include sacrificing the playoffs for the longterm health of the team and future.

That means developing players rather than doing the easiest thing to get a lone win. It means coaching the system at the cost of short term wins rather than trying to milk wins in the short term (at the cost of long term wins and team development). It also means putting a stop to the bandaid approach of 'fixing' the team's problems (or ignoring them entirely) and start addressing them in whole. Whether that is by using the bench as discipline or taking an active role in moving players even at midseason.

And for the love of everything holy, don't be extending worthless players with insane contracts.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 11:43 AM
The Bender connenctions are: underdeveloped body, great athleticism, low bballIQ, several years from contributing.

It only takes one of those things to go wrong and he'll be out of the league in four years. Guys were taken after him that will very likely have solid NBA careers.

Unclebuck
06-29-2006, 11:53 AM
Unlike some people (YOU) most of us actually watch college and high school basketball and can form valid opinions about players before they play an NBA game. So while your opinion is absolutely invalid since you admittedly don't watch anything but the NBA, others' are not.



Chad Ford had the Sixers taking Williams and you told me last night that Bird was not telling the truth about that

FrenchConnection
06-29-2006, 12:02 PM
The Bender connenctions are: underdeveloped body, great athleticism, low bballIQ, several years from contributing.

It only takes one of those things to go wrong and he'll be out of the league in four years. Guys were taken after him that will very likely have solid NBA careers.

We have a roster full of guys that are having solid NBA careers (Jack, Cro, Foster, AJ, Freddie). We needed to take a flyer on someone that could actually be great.


Chad Ford had the Sixers taking Williams and you told me last night that Bird was not telling the truth about that

And most other drafts had him going somewhere in the few pick behind 17 and falling no lower than the Knicks at 20. If this was the guy, we could not trade down.

Unclebuck
06-29-2006, 12:07 PM
The collegehoops.net site, which follows every minutia of college ball, ranks Shawne Williams with four stars, as a "consistent NBA starter." The only players from this draft they rated as high were all picked in the lottery. Not even Marcus Williams rated as high as Shawne. By position, they rated him as the third best SF in the draft.

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/Draft/2006/toptenbyposition.htm

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/Draft/2006/toptenbyposition.htm


They had Marcus Williams going late first round to early second round pick. They also say he is a bad shooter, that is what we don't need, that and a guy who steals computers.

SoupIsGood
06-29-2006, 12:12 PM
The Bender connenctions are: underdeveloped body, great athleticism, low bballIQ, several years from contributing.

It only takes one of those things to go wrong and he'll be out of the league in four years. Guys were taken after him that will very likely have solid NBA careers.

Have you watched him play, or what are you basing this off of?

I've been reading around about him, and have read that he is a good passer, which would seem to indicate that he's not low in bball IQ. Underdeveloped body? Many seem to say he has a great NBA body with great leg strength.


I don't get the Bender comparisons. It would seem they are pretty different players. I don't think Shawne has Bender's insane athleticism.

Sollozzo
06-29-2006, 12:20 PM
I think everyone needs to give these players a chance.

Something tells me that there aren't many people in this forum who watched a whole lot of Memphis' games last year. Many of you are ripping this kid, and unless you watched enough Memphis games to have really studied this kids game, then you really don't have a valid reason to knock him.

The thing is, people want to see Larry Bird fail. Anyone who Bird drafted was going to get ripped. If the Pacers would have taken Marcus Williams or Farmar from UCLA, then there would have been a ton of criticism on them to. If Shawne sucks, then that gives people more ammunition to fire at Bird. To compare him to Bender before he's even played an NBA game is simply ridiculous.

Bird and company basically aced the draft last year with Granger, so let's give him the benefit of the doubt for this year. The comments from Shawne indicate that he is very excited about coming here.

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 12:28 PM
They "aced" last year's draft because a consensus top-six pick fell into their lap, and they did the obvious thing and picked him. That's all.

Chauncey
06-29-2006, 12:33 PM
Chad Ford had the Sixers taking Williams and you told me last night that Bird was not telling the truth about that

No, I told you Bird was not telling the truth about Williams being who they wanted and that if the Sixers wanted Wililams, they could have had him at #13 where they originally were or at #16 where they traded down to, yet they still didn't draft him...why? Because they didn't want him.

You're an absolute homer, UB.




The thing is, people want to see Larry Bird fail. .

Thats absolute BS. Bird gets and has gotten a pass for many things..certainly a lot more passes than Isiah received.

Bird's nothing more than the face of the franchise. If he knew what he was doing, Donnie wouldn't still be making the decisions.

Sollozzo
06-29-2006, 12:35 PM
They "aced" last year's draft because a consensus top-six pick fell into their lap, and they did the obvious thing and picked him. That's all.



I remember some people, I don't remember who, were upset that the Pacers didn't get Green, who was taken next by Boston. Green was an extremely hyped player who was compared to TMAC, I believe.

The bottom line is, it's too early to judge the pick. Let him get a chance to play and prove himself.


No, I told you Bird was not telling the truth about Williams being who they wanted and that if the Sixers wanted Wililams, they could have had him at #13 where they originally were or at #16 where they traded down to, yet they still didn't draft him...why? Because they didn't want him.

You're an absolute homer, UB.



Thats absolute BS. Bird gets and has gotten a pass for many things..certainly a lot more passes than Isiah received.

Bird's nothing more than the face of the franchise. If he knew what he was doing, Donnie wouldn't still be making the decisions.


Not BS at all. There is an extreme amount of dislike for Bird amongst Pacers fans. It's obvious why. Trust me, there are fans who want to see him fail and be out the door in a year or 2.

SoupIsGood
06-29-2006, 12:37 PM
No, I told you Bird was not telling the truth about Williams being who they wanted and that if the Sixers wanted Wililams, they could have had him at #13 where they originally were or at #16 where they traded down to, yet they still didn't draft him...why? Because they didn't want him.

You're an absolute homer, UB.



Thats absolute BS. Bird gets and has gotten a pass for many things..certainly a lot more passes than Isiah received.

Bird's nothing more than the face of the franchise. If he knew what he was doing, Donnie wouldn't still be making the decisions.

Maybe the Sixers wanted him but didn't think Carney would fall to them?

PacerMan
06-29-2006, 01:02 PM
They "aced" last year's draft because a consensus top-six pick fell into their lap, and they did the obvious thing and picked him. That's all.

No, they also picked a very good young foreign player in Lorbeck that will make this team after next year (same as if he'd stayed at MSU). If that happens and both this years picks make it, you are 4 for 4 on draft picks making the team that last two years. That's very good.


I remember some people, I don't remember who, were upset that the Pacers didn't get Green, who was taken next by Boston. Green was an extremely hyped player who was compared to TMAC, I believe.

The bottom line is, it's too early to judge the pick. Let him get a chance to play and prove himself.




Not BS at all. There is an extreme amount of dislike for Bird amongst Pacers fans. It's obvious why. Trust me, there are fans who want to see him fail and be out the door in a year or 2.

It's mostly iu fans that have gotten a taste for the flesh of their own....

Chauncey
06-29-2006, 01:11 PM
Not BS at all. There is an extreme amount of dislike for Bird amongst Pacers fans. It's obvious why. Trust me, there are fans who want to see him fail and be out the door in a year or 2.

See, I don't see that at all. I saw that a lot with Isiah (and eventually he earned it), but I don't really see that with Bird. I know some hold a huge grudge against him because of the IU thing and some because of his neglecting his daughter, but the overwhelming majority of Pacer fans I know are big time Bird supporters.

rm1369
06-29-2006, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE=Mr._Basketball]No, I told you Bird was not telling the truth about Williams being who they wanted and that if the Sixers wanted Wililams, they could have had him at #13 where they originally were or at #16 where they traded down to, yet they still didn't draft him...why? Because they didn't want him.QUOTE]

Good or bad I believe this is who Bird wanted. The fact that Philly didn't pick him is both obvious and irrelevant. Bird believed he may go at 13 and Chad Ford has speculated that Philly really liked him. It could have been a smoke screen or they could simply have had Carney rated higher. Of course if the loved Carney so much why would they risk trading down 3 spots? My guess is they were happy with one of several guys still on the board. Does that mean Shawne was one of them? Obviously not, but it is a completly plausable scenario.

Who do you think the Pacers wanted and then panicked when they where gone? Thabo and Carney both seem logical except both have been consistantly mocked higher than the Pacers pick. I can't think of anybody picked that Bird should have been completly surprised by. If this is a panic pick, Bird is even more clueless that I've given him credit for.

It sounds as if you have seen and know more about Shawne than I do, so I can't argue if it was a good pick or not. It's not the selection I would have made (Rondo or Lowry), but I do beleieve 100% that he was Birds guy. He better be or Birds painting himself into a corner claiming he is.

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 01:27 PM
The bottom line is, it's too early to judge the pick. Let him get a chance to play and prove himself.

In the Rick Carlisle era, you better draft players that are NBA-ready right now or Rick will seriously stunt their development. Collins and Farmar may not have as much upside, but they are much closer to being NBA-ready.

I hope Williams and White spend the rest of the Rick Carlisle era in the NBDL - that's their best chance at success. I fear we're going to destroy them in their formative years and get absolutely nothing for them when we could've gotten something from other guys we passed over.

ABADays
06-29-2006, 02:05 PM
I think all the Bender comparisons come from the words "potential" and "future contributor".

btowncolt
06-29-2006, 02:06 PM
Sometimes I wonder why they make computers so easy for stupid people to use.

bulletproof
06-29-2006, 02:09 PM
Sometimes I wonder why they make computers so easy for stupid people to use.

Hee-hee

Bball
06-29-2006, 02:19 PM
I think all the Bender comparisons come from the words "potential" and "future contributor".


I think the Pacer Nation is rightly scared of the potential 'next' Bender, whoever that might be.

Generically speaking-
Drafting 'a' Bender at 17 in a weak draft, with a team that is anything but a contender as it exists now, and not giving up a much used piece of the team to do it makes this situation wholly different. It doesn't mean they could or could not have made a better pick... but it's not nearly the wasted opportunity and mistake they made with the 5th pick and the choice of Bender.

In Bender- Not only did we blow a top pick, we traded a valuable asset to do it. And we were an ECF team. Big difference in that scenario and this one.

-Bball
(This post isn't really picking on anything ABA Days just said... His was just a convenient springboard).

naptown
06-29-2006, 02:28 PM
I hate seeing Bender called a bust. You can't predict injury. If Bender would have been able to stay healthy he would have been a very good player in this league.

Was Len Bias a bust? Clark Kellogg a bust (only played 3 years before injuries took over)? I just think injury killing a guys career is unfortunate.... not a lack of talent.

FrenchConnection
06-29-2006, 02:35 PM
I hate seeing Bender called a bust. You can't predict injury. If Bender would have been able to stay healthy he would have been a very good player in this league.

Was Len Bias a bust? Clark Kellogg a bust (only played 3 years before injuries took over)? I just think injury killing a guys career is unfortunate.... not a lack of talent.

The mistake was not in taking Bender, but rather in resigning him to that contract after he had proven to be injury-prone. You can take a flyer on talent, but when it does not work out you move on. To use Donnie's words, "you cannot fall in love with talent."

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 02:36 PM
That depends on whether or not you believe it was Bender's fragile body and mind keeping him off the court, of if it was his uninspiring play (save for three or four famous, over-emhpasized games.)

Or, as many of us believe, a nasty combination of both bad luck with injuries AND bad/ dumb basketball.

I'm not sure that Bender, if he stayed healthy, would still be in the league today anyway. It seems the injuries provided an excuse to prolong an uninspiring career.

Bball
06-29-2006, 02:37 PM
I hate seeing Bender called a bust. You can't predict injury. If Bender would have been able to stay healthy he would have been a very good player in this league.

Was Len Bias a bust? Clark Kellogg a bust (only played 3 years before injuries took over)? I just think injury killing a guys career is unfortunate.... not a lack of talent.

Lack of being a 'basketball' player made Bender a bust. The injury issue just put a capper on the failure.

-Bball

naptown
06-29-2006, 02:37 PM
The mistake was not in taking Bender, but rather in resigning him to that contract after he had proven to be injury-prone. You can take a flyer on talent, but when it does not work out you move on. To use Donnie's words, "you cannot fall in love with talent."

No arguments there.... I cringed when they gave him all that money when he had all kinds of question marks about his ability to stay healthy.

Young
06-29-2006, 02:38 PM
Lets not label Shawne a Bender.

Lets let Shawne be Shawne.

naptown
06-29-2006, 02:39 PM
Jay and bball,

We just have to agree to disagree on Benders talent level. I think it was the injuries that prevented him from becoming a good player, not the lack of ability.

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 02:41 PM
:shrug:

I think he had ability.

I think he was just so dumb - on the court - that he made Darius Miles look like he has a decent bball IQ.

naptown
06-29-2006, 02:45 PM
It's hard to improve and get "smarter" when you can't get playing time due to injury. Like I said, we just look at it from two different perspectives.

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 02:51 PM
That assumes he had the capacity to get smarter on the court. That's not an assumption I'd want to make.

He was a guy who's stock rose rapidly right before the draft, and the Pacers fell in love with him based on film of the McDonald's game and one workout.

I think they misread his court "smarts" from the beginning - and they certainly didn't help him any when they tried to turn him into a 7'0" SG since he was too skinny/ weak to play in the paint where he belonged.

Lots of people to blame for this, including Bender himself.

Since86
06-29-2006, 03:11 PM
It's hard to improve and get "smarter" when you can't get playing time due to injury. Like I said, we just look at it from two different perspectives.


HUH!?

Some of the greatest basketball minds ever have been horrible players. Court experience is only one way to get a higher basketball IQ.

Young
06-29-2006, 03:25 PM
I haven't seen this question asked but maybe it has, anyways does anyone think that the NBDL is a real opition for Shawne or James? Would that be a good idea?

I don't think either would be to thrilled with it considering it would mean a paycut, or would they get paid the same being rookies?

I think that it might be good for Shawne depending on what other moves we make. If we do happen to re-sign Peja though i'm thinking that Shawne will barely see any playing time. I don't think he is really ready for the NBA quite yet and wouldn't mind seeing him in the D league for a year. We can always call him up if he is needed. I think that the in game experience would be good for him.

As for James i'd probably like to see him on the regular roster just because I think he is closer to being able to contribute than Shawne and we aren't likely to re-sign Freddie.

ChicagoJ
06-29-2006, 04:18 PM
For these guys,

NBDL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Being coached by Rick their rookie seasons.

bulletproof
06-29-2006, 04:21 PM
Some of you are like a bunch of women when it comes to letting things go. I can only imagine what your relationships with women are like. It must be a freakin' dredge fest.

SoupIsGood
06-29-2006, 06:17 PM
Some of you are like a bunch of women when it comes to letting things go. I can only imagine what your relationships with women are like. It must be a freakin' dredge fest.
:girlfight

beast23
06-29-2006, 10:35 PM
Some of you are like a bunch of women when it comes to letting things go. I can only imagine what your relationships with women are like. It must be a freakin' dredge fest.Dang, bp, I was just about to weigh in on this one. I didn't realize that I had to pass a qualifying question first.

So, I'll go ahead anyway. Hopefully, I pass the qualifier. In August, I will have been faithfully married to the same woman for 33 years, after 2 years of dating. So, my relationship is going just fine.

Okay... back to the Bender bashing. I think folks have to forget about the injury excuse. Bender had more than ample time to demonstrate that he had "learned how to play basketball".

Because he didn't / couldn't, I can only conclude one of two things. Either he refused to put in the effort necessary to study and learn how his managment wanted the team to play, or he just wasn't cerebral enough to grasp the concepts.

And for Pete's sake... after $32M, you'd think that would be the least the Pacers could expect.

bulletproof
06-29-2006, 10:57 PM
Dang, bp, I was just about to weigh in on this one. I didn't realize that I had to pass a qualifying question first.

So, I'll go ahead anyway. Hopefully, I pass the qualifier. In August, I will have been faithfully married to the same woman for 33 years, after 2 years of dating. So, my relationship is going just fine.

Okay. In July my parents will have been faithfully married for 50 years after dating for 7 months. My dad is a Red Sox fan and I've never once heard him bring up the '75 series or the '86 series—rehashing them over and over and talk about what could've/should've been. Or the 2003 ALCS when Grady Little left Pedro Martinez in 1 or 2 innings too long in the 7th game of the series. I guess I'm not tracking with you there, beast.

SoupIsGood
06-29-2006, 11:11 PM
I think, just before his career ended, Bender started to 'get it.'

He would have been a ferocious scorer if not for injuries.

Unclebuck
06-29-2006, 11:14 PM
Should I weigh in on Bender. OK I guess I will

If he could have been healthy I think he would have been an allstar a couple of times. That is how good I think he would have been

Bball
06-29-2006, 11:24 PM
Okay. In July my parents will have been faithfully married for 50 years after dating for 7 months. My dad is a Red Sox fan and I've never once heard him bring up the '75 series or the '86 series—rehashing them over and over and talk about what could've/should've been. Or the 2003 ALCS when Grady Little left Pedro Martinez in 1 or 2 innings too long in the 7th game of the series. I guess I'm not tracking with you there, beast.

Do you know your dad's username on the Red Sox forum?

-Bball

beast23
06-30-2006, 12:13 AM
Okay. In July my parents will have been faithfully married for 50 years after dating for 7 months. My dad is a Red Sox fan and I've never once heard him bring up the '75 series or the '86 series—rehashing them over and over and talk about what could've/should've been. Or the 2003 ALCS when Grady Little left Pedro Martinez in 1 or 2 innings too long in the 7th game of the series. I guess I'm not tracking with you there, beast.
Okay, okay. So your dad is not a type A personality with compulsive behavior... like maybe, just maybe I am. Or maybe in his 70 years of being a Red Sox fan we just can't call him a real fan...... I'M JUST KIDDING.

But, come now. Bostonians are famous for their belief in the "Jinx". So they just don't obsess about 2003, 1975 or 1986... they obsess about 1919.... before all but a handful of them were even born.

But really... Dale and Antonio have always been two of my favorite players.

IUColtPacerFan
06-30-2006, 12:25 AM
I think, just before his career ended, Bender started to 'get it.'

He would have been a ferocious scorer if not for injuries.

People that are using Bender as an excuse for the Pacers to not draft on potential are forgetting Grant Hill. It was just a bad fluke that Bender couldn't live up to what could have been because of injuries. Nothing more. Bender had no prior history of injuries, so to now berate the Pacers for drafting potential is absurd.

Young
06-30-2006, 12:29 AM
People that are using Bender as an excuse for the Pacers to not draft on potential are forgetting Grant Hill. It was just a bad fluke that Bender couldn't live up to what could have been because of injuries. Nothing more. Bender had no prior history of injuries, so to now berate the Pacers for drafting potential is absurd.

Exactly.

Also consider the Pacer's situation at the time. Granted I didn't follow the NBA then I have a rough idea of our situation. Antonio wanted out, we were a veteran team and we could afford to take a risk on such a talented kid so we did. It didn't work out but I think that it was a pretty good move. Ok so it wasn't a good move but it wasn't really a move that really hurt us that much IMO.

This talk about Bender reminds me of the talk about Stephen Jackson. Some don't think we should have made that trade of Stephen for Al but oh how quickly some forget about Al wanting out and our NEED of some outside shooting and Stephen was the best fit avaliable then. Now I don't want Stephen here anymore but i'm not going to say that Al for Stephen was a bad trade for us.

Bball
06-30-2006, 07:36 AM
Exactly.

Also consider the Pacer's situation at the time. Granted I didn't follow the NBA then I have a rough idea of our situation. Antonio wanted out, we were a veteran team and we could afford to take a risk on such a talented kid so we did. It didn't work out but I think that it was a pretty good move. Ok so it wasn't a good move but it wasn't really a move that really hurt us that much IMO.

This talk about Bender reminds me of the talk about Stephen Jackson. Some don't think we should have made that trade of Stephen for Al but oh how quickly some forget about Al wanting out and our NEED of some outside shooting and Stephen was the best fit avaliable then. Now I don't want Stephen here anymore but i'm not going to say that Al for Stephen was a bad trade for us.

We were a veteran team and AD was a big part of that. Rik Smits was breaking down and talking retirement. The last thing we needed to do was trade AD for an unproven HS kid whose stock got a kick in the rear when he had a good game at the McDonalds game. Bender was too raw, too weak, and there were questions about his knees even back then. He wasn't going to be able to fill the void if Rik decided to retire or was forced out. Rik played 1 more year and that was it.

Yes, AD wanted to start. Personally, I would have had no problem starting him over Smits. Maybe that would have even extended Smits' career. Secondarily, if you were going to trade him you had to look at trading him for someone who could fill in for him and/or Smits. It didn't have to be a draft pick. I hope it wasn't done for monetary reasons to begin with.

The fact that we were a 'veteran' team (read: contending team) is exactly why you don't do a move like that. If you have someone buried on your bench and can use them to trade up, maybe you can take the gamble. If you have the shot at your regular draft spot maybe you take the gamble. You don't trade an important cog on the team, especially when you know another piece is breaking down and that important cog could come even more important, for an extremely raw HS kid with question marks everywhere and obviously not going to be ready to contribute where you'll need help most in the very near future.

None of that is saying you can't trade AD, especially for the 5th pick in the draft... but you don't take Bender if you do. You go for someone who can come in and contribute.

Bender wasn't just a bad pick, we traded a player with a lot of value to get that pick. Therefore the problem was compounded and the stakes were higher.

Then, not only to hang onto him when it was clear he was never going to be anything special, to give Bender an extension was crazy. Why???

Here we are 6-7 years later and only now has the thing finally reached the end. That's why it's still talked about. The albatross has been with us all this time.

-Bball

Chauncey
06-30-2006, 07:48 AM
People that are using Bender as an excuse for the Pacers to not draft on potential are forgetting Grant Hill. It was just a bad fluke that Bender couldn't live up to what could have been because of injuries. Nothing more. Bender had no prior history of injuries, so to now berate the Pacers for drafting potential is absurd.


Is this a Jonathan Bender/Grant Hill comparison?

Grant Hill was the best player in the NBA before his injuries.

FrenchConnection
06-30-2006, 08:32 AM
The other choices that we had could contribute immediatly and will likely have, as Jay said, "solid NBA careers." We have a roster full of guys that are in the middle of "solid NBA careers." You are never going to win with a roster full of these types of players. You need a star, and Larry shot for the moon to try to draft one in a really weak draft. It may end his career if Marcus becomes an all-star and Shawne fizzles, but I respect him for sticking to his guts. I think that you have to have a GM with an ego that can take the heat that he took from the media on draft night. You want your management to act based on what they believe and see in players. Who cares what Steven A. Smith or Jay Bilis says?

BTW, everything that I said above about trusting your teams' scouts and management does not apply to Isiah. He is a dumba**!

ChicagoJ
06-30-2006, 12:09 PM
I still disagree - we've already got a star (JO), we've got what we think might be a star in the making (Granger), and we've got a guy with rock star popularity (Saras).

I'm not convinced we need to find another "potential star", but we do need role players that compliment JO (and Granger).

bulletproof
06-30-2006, 12:52 PM
Yes, AD wanted to start. Personally, I would have had no problem starting him over Smits.
I like how you downplay that. "Yes, AD wanted to start." Like it's a small irrelevant detail.

Who makes that call, by the way? The GM? AD says "start me or trade me." What's Donnie supposed to do? Give in to his demand? Force Bird to start him? Yeah, that's gonna happen. You're going to make a demand like that to a man of Walsh's or Bird's stature and think they're going to comply. That's just plain stupid. I agree 100% with the idea that if a player makes a demand like that or doesn't want to be here, help him pack his bags and put him on the next train out of town.



None of that is saying you can't trade AD, especially for the 5th pick in the draft... but you don't take Bender if you do. You go for someone who can come in and contribute.
You are so prescient in your hindsight.



Bender wasn't just a bad pick, we traded a player with a lot of value to get that pick. Therefore the problem was compounded and the stakes were higher.

Then, not only to hang onto him when it was clear he was never going to be anything special, to give Bender an extension was crazy. Why???

Here we are 6-7 years later and only now has the thing finally reached the end. That's why it's still talked about. The albatross has been with us all this time.
Any new ground covered here? Nope.

Bball
06-30-2006, 06:02 PM
Any new ground covered here? Nope.

:tongue:

BTW... it isn't hindsight. What I say now about Bender is what I said all along. I was right.

-Bball

Gamble
06-30-2006, 06:22 PM
Let me know when you figure out who pissed the farthest. :D

grace
06-30-2006, 07:06 PM
Bender had no prior history of injuries

And that's why we don't draft high school players any more. ;)