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View Full Version : Big deal brewing between Phoenix/Seattle- Jonathan Givony



Chauncey
06-25-2006, 12:06 AM
This guy is about as well-trusted as it gets when it comes to internet rumor sites:

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1369

To put it simply:

Phoenix trades: Shawn Marion (doesn't get along with Amare, max contract), #27, possibly Barbosa

Seattle Trades: Rashard Lewis (Can opt out after next year), #10, possibly Fortson

Basically Phoenix does it to stay competitive for now while extending guys like Diaw, knowing that Lewis is likely a one year player.

Hicks
06-25-2006, 12:08 AM
Interesting.

Lord Helmet
06-25-2006, 12:25 AM
Hmmmmmm.

Interesting....

Wonder what kind of non-JO rumors the Pacers will be involved in.

Kstat
06-25-2006, 12:28 AM
Without Marion Phoenix has nobody to rebound the ball.

THey cant run if the other team gets 15 offensive boards every quarter...

Nash
Bell
Lewis
Diaw
Stoudemire

Sooo much offense in that lineup, so little defense, so nonexistent rebounding.

SoupIsGood
06-25-2006, 12:30 AM
Doesn't get along with Amare? What happened?

Eindar
06-25-2006, 12:36 AM
Without Marion Phoenix has nobody to rebound the ball.

THey cant run if the other team gets 15 offensive boards every quarter...

Nash
Bell
Lewis
Diaw
Stoudemire

Sooo much offense in that lineup, so little defense, so nonexistent rebounding.

This pretty much sums it up. Expect the Suns to stink next year if they let Marion go, with or without Amare.

Will Galen
06-25-2006, 12:46 AM
This guy is about as well-trusted as it gets when it comes to internet rumor sites:

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1369

To put it simply:

Phoenix trades: Shawn Marion (doesn't get along with Amare, max contract), #27, possibly Barbosa

Seattle Trades: Rashard Lewis (Can opt out after next year), #10, possibly Fortson

Basically Phoenix does it to stay competitive for now while extending guys like Diaw, knowing that Lewis is likely a one year player.

No way Phoenix does this deal. Phoenix's coach has repeatedly stated that it would take a no brainer for Marion to be traded. This is a clear win for Seattle. Just another rumor with no substance.

pizza guy
06-25-2006, 02:13 AM
I still don't understand why they'd want to trade Marion. With the season he had in the absence of Amare, the two of them together could be insane.

Robertmto
06-25-2006, 02:32 AM
Without Marion Phoenix has nobody to rebound the ball.

THey cant run if the other team gets 15 offensive boards every quarter...

Nash
Bell
Lewis
Diaw
Stoudemire

Sooo much offense in that lineup, so little defense, so nonexistent rebounding.

Amare is the rebounder in that line up and Lewis can grab about 8 a game, probably only about a 3 or 4 rebound dropoff.

Kstat
06-25-2006, 02:47 AM
Amare is the rebounder in that line up and Lewis can grab about 8 a game, probably only about a 3 or 4 rebound dropoff.

:laugh:

Rashard averaged 5RPG last year. Marion averaged 12, which was as many as Lewis and Diaw combined.

Amare averages about 9 for his career. Rebounding is arguably one of his weakest suits.

CableKC
06-25-2006, 02:47 AM
I don't see why a PF/C rotation of Kurt Thomas, Amare and Boris wouldn't allow them to get enough rebounding.

Robertmto
06-25-2006, 03:02 AM
:laugh:

Rashard averaged 5RPG last year. Marion averaged 12, which was as many as Lewis and Diaw combined.

Amare averages about 9 for his career. Rebounding is arguably one of his weakest suits.

Lewis will be in a much faster and shorter system tho, he an add 3rpg

Steve McQueen
06-25-2006, 03:24 AM
I'd like to see this deal just to see how Marion performs in a non-Suns enviorment. Would he still put up the monster numbers?

The sad thing is, if this does happen, Marion drops off the face of the NBA map while Shard suddenly becomes a household name come spring.

Mourning
06-25-2006, 03:30 AM
I have heard reports before about Amare not getting along with some on the team. I didn't know Shawn was one of them.

From a far away perspective ... Marion doesn't strike me at all as a difficult person, while Amare ... I don't know he's got something over him that I can easily see irritating others. I think the reports about him not getting along had especially to do with him acting as if he were a "gangster" in certain circumstances. I think it was two years ago when I heard it.

And the Suns would like to re-sign Amare to the max and with the salary structure they currently have they are going to have trouble beying able to do that, so I see the reasoning from their side about trading their current highest contract (Marion).


I'd like to see this deal just to see how Marion performs in a non-Suns enviorment. Would he still put up the monster numbers?

The sad thing is, if this does happen, Marion drops off the face of the NBA map while Shard suddenly becomes a household name come spring.

I don't believe that will happen. Sure, Phoenix has a system that plays to the strengths and qualities that Marion seems to excell in, BUT Seattle wouldn't be a bad fit for him I think.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Arcadian
06-25-2006, 03:57 AM
I think Marion deserves a ton of credit for the Suns success the past two years. He has been one of the few contributers in both Sun's seasons. I think he will do great where ever he goes.

Will Galen
06-25-2006, 06:48 AM
And the Suns would like to re-sign Amare to the max and with the salary structure they currently have they are going to have trouble beying able to do that, so I see the reasoning from their side about trading their current highest contract (Marion).

Dang Morning, your usually on the ball. The Suns have already signed Amare to an extension.

The rumor is they want to trade Marion so they can resign Leandrinho Barbosa and Boris Diaw. However, both Barbosa and Diaw are under contract next year. It's the year after that that they have to make a qualifying offer, so even if the Suns wanted to trade Marion so they could resign Barbosa and Diaw they wouldn't have to do it until next year.

Now they do want to resign Tim Thomas, but that's not included in this particular rumor.

Mourning
06-25-2006, 07:14 AM
Dang Morning, your usually on the ball. The Suns have already signed Amare to an extension.

The rumor is they want to trade Marion so they can resign Leandrinho Barbosa and Boris Diaw. However, both Barbosa and Diaw are under contract next year. It's the year after that that they have to make a qualifying offer, so even if the Suns wanted to trade Marion so they could resign Barbosa and Diaw they wouldn't have to do it until next year.

Now they do want to resign Tim Thomas, but that's not included in this particular rumor.

Ouch! That's pretty stupid of me. I must have missed it. I thought he had to be re-signed this summer.

Then, yes, it changes the scenario I was talking about wholescale (sp?).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

indygeezer
06-25-2006, 07:24 AM
This guy is about as well-trusted as it gets when it comes to internet rumor sites:

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1369

To put it simply:

Phoenix trades: Shawn Marion (doesn't get along with Amare, max contract), #27, possibly Barbosa

Seattle Trades: Rashard Lewis (Can opt out after next year), #10, possibly Fortson

Basically Phoenix does it to stay competitive for now while extending guys like Diaw, knowing that Lewis is likely a one year player.

WELL-TRUSTED? This is the guy that got banned from one of the draft sites llast year (I'll see if I can find it) after he admitted that he made up the quotes in one of his "articles". In fact, he had never met with the people he had quoted. But I guess that is to be expected when it comes to Internet "jounalism". Don't trust anything or anyone, unless they're a PD member.

Chauncey
06-25-2006, 08:12 AM
WELL-TRUSTED? This is the guy that got banned from one of the draft sites llast year (I'll see if I can find it) after he admitted that he made up the quotes in one of his "articles". In fact, he had never met with the people he had quoted. But I guess that is to be expected when it comes to Internet "jounalism". Don't trust anything or anyone, unless they're a PD member.

Actually, that was about 2-3 years ago, I think...and yes, he's still the most trusted out there. I don't count the Chad Fords of the world since he's now at ESPN. I'm talking about just the "rumor" sites

I'd rank them like this:

1. nbadraft.net (they don't put out many rumors but you can infer a lot from their mock draft, I know some of these people pretty well)
2. draftexpress.com (Givony has legitimate contacts across the league)
3a. realgm.com (copies off everyone else)
3b. hoopshype.com (see realgm.com)
5. hoopsworld.com (Steve Kyler is an absolute moron, but for certain teams the beat reporters are pretty close to the team)

Kstat
06-25-2006, 08:38 AM
I'd rank them like this:

1. nbadraft.net (they don't put out many rumors but you can infer a lot from their mock draft, I know some of these people pretty well)


Like Loren Woods being the #1 pick, or giving The Clippers an "E" on draft night for trading Tyson Chandler for Elton Brand?


Lewis will be in a much faster and shorter system tho, he an add 3rpg

1. Phoenix's system isn't that much faster than Seattle's.

2. Do you have any idea how big a jump 3 rebounds per game is? That's an extra 240+ rebounds per season for a guy that wouldn't know where the paint was if you drew him a map.

Steve McQueen
06-25-2006, 08:46 AM
NBAdraft.net consistently has the more accurate mock draft. However, it is true DraftExpress has far more content on their site. I check them both out daily.

As for Shard Lewis, anyone who doesn't think the Suns high octane tempo will increase a players production is crazy. Its common sense really. More possessions, more shots, more misses etc. The high number of players who have had their career years under said system is all the proof you need. Nash, Amare, Marion, Diaw, Bell, Richardson, J. Johnson etc.
I think in Phoenix's current system, Lewis could easily be a 24/8 player. Not quite on Marions level, but not nearly as far off as the casual fan would think. The question is, do the picks involved make it worthwhile for both teams? Hard to say....

Kstat
06-25-2006, 08:57 AM
As for Shard Lewis, anyone who doesn't think the Suns high octane tempo will increase a players production is crazy. Its common sense really.


Phoenix is a middle-of-the-pack team in terms of total rebounds per game. Their style inflates points and assists, but that's pretty much it. Expecting a mediocre rebounder to increase his average to 8RPG is beyond silly.

Steve McQueen
06-25-2006, 09:05 AM
Phoenix is a middle-of-the-pack team in terms of total rebounds per game. Their style inflates points and assists, but that's pretty much it. Expecting a mediocre rebounder to increase his average to 8RPG is beyond silly.
The 5.0 rpg were by far the lowest of Shards career since becoming a starter. His first 4 years starting, he averaged between 6.5-7.1 each season. So to say it's beyond silly to expect Shard to average 8 rebounds per game, in a stats-friendly Phoenix system, is kind of streching it in my humble opinion.

Kstat
06-25-2006, 09:09 AM
The 5.0 rpg were by far the lowest of Shards career since becoming a starter. His first 4 years starting, he averaged between 6.5-7.1 each season. So to say it's beyond silly to expect Shard to average 8 rebounds per game, in a stats-friendly Phoenix system, is kind of streching it in my humble opinion.

His 5rpg average wasn't a fluke, it was part of a trend.

Shard's rebounds have decreased each of the last 4 seasons. As his scoring has gone up, he's gone away from the paint entirely. He's becoming Glen Rice part 2.

Anthem
06-25-2006, 09:13 AM
Who would Pheonix take at 10?

Kstat
06-25-2006, 09:15 AM
Who would Pheonix take at 10?

Probably Reddick. Pechirov is also a player that D'Antoni probably likes.

If he's been drinking, I could even see him going for Shawne Williams.

The Suns may be thinking O'Bryant could fall to them, which would be a steal, albeit a longshot.

Steve McQueen
06-25-2006, 09:18 AM
His 5rpg average wasn't a fluke, it was part of a trend.

Shard's rebounds have decreased each of the last 4 seasons. As his scoring has gone up, he's gone away from the paint entirely. He's becoming Glen Rice part 2.
Which is exactly why a change of scenery would do him good. But him in Phoenixs fastbreak offense, and I gurantee you his field goal percentage, points per game, and rebounding all go up.

If Shard goes to Phoenix expect 24/8.....book it.


Who would Pheonix take at 10?
I would guess either Nash's eventual replacement (Williams, Rondo, Farmar) or an athletic big man with strong defensive skills like Saer Sene or Cedric Simmons.

Kstat
06-25-2006, 09:21 AM
Which is exactly why a change of scenery would do him good. But him in Phoenixs fastbreak offense, and I gurantee you his field goal percentage, points per game, and rebounding all go up.

If Shard goes to Phoenix expect 24/8.....book it.




1. Lewis's shot attempts would go down, not up, especially if Amare is healthy.

2. Nobody's rebounding increases in that offense. Were you not listening? If anything, it only encourages Shard to float around the perimeter more and not rebound.

Kegboy
06-25-2006, 09:25 AM
Amazing deal for Seattle, pretty stupid one for Phoenix.

Kstat
06-25-2006, 09:28 AM
Amazing deal for Seattle, pretty stupid one for Phoenix.

I dunno, I don't think it helps either team.

Marion is obviously a better all-around player than Lewis. But he's the kind of guy that makes a good team better. He doesn't strike me as a guy that makes a bad team good.

Kegboy
06-25-2006, 09:36 AM
I dunno, I don't think it helps either team.

Marion is obviously a better all-around player than Lewis. But he's the kind of guy that makes a good team better. He doesn't strike me as a guy that makes a bad team good.

That may very well be true. But they already know for a fact Lewis isn't.

Kstat
06-25-2006, 09:38 AM
That may very well be true. But they already know for a fact Lewis isn't.

Yes, and now they can pay Marion $6 million MORE to win the same amount of games....

Trader Joe
06-25-2006, 10:56 AM
I don't think this makes either team worse and I do not think it makes either team better. They just don't strike me as good trading partners.

Chauncey
06-25-2006, 01:40 PM
I think many are missing the point from Phoenix' perspective. They would do this deal knowing that Lewis is going to walk after next year. They're basically saying that they'd rather be able to resign Barbosa and Diaw than keep Marion and then not resign one or both of those guys.

Assuming the trade goes down, that is.

Kegboy
06-25-2006, 02:53 PM
Oh, I understand they're doing this to keep Diaw. I don't know about Barbosa though, considering he may be included in the deal.

Young
06-25-2006, 03:51 PM
I don't like this deal at all for Phoenix.

I think that they are taking a huge risk in trading away Marion. Marion one of their best players and a very important part of that team. He can play the 3 or 4 and as bad as an offenseive game he has he has still manged to average nearly 20 points per game pretty much ever since his second year in the league. He is a double double guy every night while giving you a block and a steal.

If they want to trade Marion, fine. But if you trade him for some of the names i've been hearing, Tyson Chandler and now Rashard Lewis. Sure they get a draft pick too but how does that help them win now? It doesn't.

Sure they get to keep probably Boris Diaw and maybe either Barbosa and/or Tim Thomas but they lose Shawn Marion. How good are the Suns without Marion? I guess we will find out.

I can sort of understand why they want to deal Shawn, yet I don't understand why they would have interest in some of these deals.

So they trade Marion for Lewis/pick with the intentions of Lewis walking next summer? So all you get for your 3rd best player is the 10th pick and you keep your role players? Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that is a hell of a deal for the Suns. I know Diaw is good and Barbosa and Thomas have crucial roles but man I don't see how they can afford to trade Marion, at the very least not until they see how Amare comes back.

Will Galen
06-25-2006, 03:57 PM
Oh, I understand they're doing this to keep Diaw. I don't know about Barbosa though, considering he may be included in the deal.


Seattle and Phoenix may yet make a deal, but Phoenix is losing big time talent wise the way this is laid out. Marion is a stud and Barbosa is very good. Lewis is an all star, but not in Marion's class. Barbosa is really the deal breaker for me here. That's way to much. Better if it was James Jones instead of Barbosa.

Chauncey
06-25-2006, 05:35 PM
So no one is going to take issue with the idea of the salary dump itself? Its nowhere near a fair deal...If I was a Suns fan, I would have made about 500 calls to the corporate office today.

Shade
06-25-2006, 06:06 PM
My first impression is that this is not a bad deal for Seattle, but is horrible for Phoenix. Mucking with a team on the cusp to save money is the ultimate insult to fans. The only rationale I see to this from the Suns' perspective is that they expect that #10 pick to be huge for them.

Should the Pacers make a run for Marion? What do you guys think it would take? That would be a hell of a logjam.

Plax80
06-25-2006, 07:53 PM
I don't like this deal at all for Phoenix.

I think that they are taking a huge risk in trading away Marion. Marion one of their best players and a very important part of that team. He can play the 3 or 4 and as bad as an offenseive game he has he has still manged to average nearly 20 points per game pretty much ever since his second year in the league. He is a double double guy every night while giving you a block and a steal.

If they want to trade Marion, fine. But if you trade him for some of the names i've been hearing, Tyson Chandler and now Rashard Lewis. Sure they get a draft pick too but how does that help them win now? It doesn't.

Sure they get to keep probably Boris Diaw and maybe either Barbosa and/or Tim Thomas but they lose Shawn Marion. How good are the Suns without Marion? I guess we will find out.

I can sort of understand why they want to deal Shawn, yet I don't understand why they would have interest in some of these deals.

So they trade Marion for Lewis/pick with the intentions of Lewis walking next summer? So all you get for your 3rd best player is the 10th pick and you keep your role players? Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that is a hell of a deal for the Suns. I know Diaw is good and Barbosa and Thomas have crucial roles but man I don't see how they can afford to trade Marion, at the very least not until they see how Amare comes back.

Lewis isn't likely to walk away from playing next to Nash. I think he will flourish in that system. Marion's work on the boards will be missed but from their perspective its a no-brainer.

They won't pay the luxury tax...so you are really left with a Marion and Barbosa for Diaw, Thomas, Lewis, and the 10th pick. Phoenix will be setting themselves up very nicely for the next 5 years w/o worrying baout exceeding tax threshhold.

Thats a great deal.

From Seattle's perspective....they want to win now again. Marion is a better player than Lewis. They don't want to lose Lewis and get back nothing. They were left with doing a deal like this and vaulting back into the WC ladder or completely tearing down the team and starting from scratch. I believe the owners want out and the best way to accomplish that is to start winning again. Marion is very expensive but his deal has only three years left and by including Fortson, you are really only adding salary in the 2nd and 3rd yrs. They already have some young big players, in Collison, Swift, Wilcox, etc... so the 10th pick wasn't going to help them.

Great move as well for them.

naptownmenace
06-26-2006, 10:21 AM
Should the Pacers make a run for Marion? What do you guys think it would take? That would be a hell of a logjam.


1. YES!!!! :nod:

2. I'd be willing to trade pretty much anyone on the team other than JO, including Granger, for Marion. I love Granger but I doubt he'll ever be as good as The Matrix. Maybe a package of Granger, Jackson, and Tinsley for Marion and James Jones would work?

Let the team work out the logjam problems during the summer.