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clemdogg
06-21-2006, 03:14 PM
Look folks...I love Larry Bird as much as the next Pacer fan, and probably more. For the longest time, he was my favorite NBA player of all time, now behind Reggie Miller. Although he's the only Pacer coach to get us over the hump and into the Finals, is he really the right man for the job in front office?

To me, Donnie Walsh has been, and still is, one of the best front office guys in basketball. The fact that the Pacers have been in the playoffs...what is it like 18 of the last 19 seasons?...is remarkable. What's even more remarkable is the job that was done after the 2000 loss to the Lakers in the Finals. The returning team really looked nothing like that one, and yet in a short time, we were right back to competing again. Donnie made great moves getting JO, Artest, and Miller in here. Obviously, he has a really good eye for talent.

But consider the decisions that Larry has made, or at least has influenced greatly:
1.) Keeping Ron around. - "Ronnie" is a top ten player in the league. Period. But he cost us 2 seasons, and possibly 2 championships, in Indy. The Pacers knew he was a problem, and had a decision to make. Either let him go to whoever would take him, or try to fix him. Obviously, we felt we could fix him, so we kept him. And at the time, I thought it was the right decision. Obviously, me and Larry were both wrong.

2.) Sarunas - I may be being a little hard on ol' Sarunas after only a year, but honestly, I haven't seen anything in this guy that makes me think he is going to be a premier point guard in the league. Maybe he just lost his confidence, and maybe he really is really good. But I'm not sure he was worth bringing considering our position at PG in the first place.

3.) Rick Carlisle - As of now, Carlisle has yet to get a contract extension. It would be a mistake to let him go. But its also a mistake to keep him around if Larry wants to coach from the front office. You don't hire a guy if you don't trust him. You don't hire a guy if you want to tell him what players should be playing what positions.

4.) Peja vs. Maggette - I'm not sure this was a mistake. I like Peja. I think he will do well if he sticks around. I think JO needs him out there on the wing. Having said all that, if the rumors that Corey Maggette was available and we passed on him because of health, then I think it was a mistake. Obviously Maggette performed much better in the playoffs than did Peja (he actually played!), but I'm not basing it solely off of that, if at all. Maggette is the type of player we need - a strong, athletic playmaker who can finish. We have a few guys who can drive (Fred Jones, Jack), but rarely do they finish.

There are a few more moves but I'm not sure what hand Larry had in them. In fact, I'm not positive on what kind of hand Larry had in all of these deals. If anyone knows, please share. But Larry has some moves coming up that will really be the judge of his front office talent, and his eye for talent. Obviously, we need to move Tinsley or AJ, preferably Tinsley, and possibly Jack. And the draft as well. I just wonder if Larry can get us back to being contenders in the next year or two.

Will Galen
06-21-2006, 03:19 PM
To soon to tell. I would say he is better than Magic, Isiah, and Jordan, plus he's learning under Donnie Walsh.

The only problem I foresee with Bird is he doesn't appear to understand if teams don't have a superstar they need chemistry. And by superstar I mean like the guys mentioned.

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 03:19 PM
You are really opening up a can of worms with this thread. Look out!

Leisure Suit Larry
06-21-2006, 03:21 PM
Yeah, he is.

clemdogg
06-21-2006, 03:24 PM
Yeah, he is.

I am opening up a can of worms? Or Larry is the right man for the job?

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 03:27 PM
I am opening up a can of worms? Or Larry is the right man for the job?

I would say both!

Hicks
06-21-2006, 03:31 PM
He might be. Will's right in that it's too early to tell. Now wait for those who hate his guts (now, before, and always) to chime in.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-21-2006, 03:36 PM
Wait was Larry was after we traded Brad Miller right? That and letting Ron Mercer go were the only bad things that happened since Bender. Harrington for Jackson wasn't great but I like both of them so I don't care.

clemdogg
06-21-2006, 03:36 PM
As much as I want to think its too eary to tell, I'm not sure it is. The biggest problem I have is that he doesn't seem to me the type to admit he's wrong. Which is a very bad thing for a GM. Think about it: He didn't get rid of Ron because he thought he could change him. He was wrong and he hurt us. He put all this stock into Sarunas, and as of last year, he was wrong. But he blames Rick for not playing him at the right spot. I mean, those are two HUGE moves that may or may not have cost us a championship in the last 2 years. When will it not be too early to tell anymore? When will it be too late? How many wrong moves do you get?

I'm not sold one way or another, but I'm leaning towards the fact that he won't get it done in the long run. I'm not looking forward to Donnie leaving.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-21-2006, 03:38 PM
One more thing, don't forget about the James Jones thing. It doesn't bother me but I know many of the people on here thought he was the second coming for some reason.

Arcadian
06-21-2006, 03:39 PM
First off that is a great post.

Even tough I'm not a Larry fan I guess it is too early to say he is bad. We will never know until it is just him. His style does rub me the wrong way. That however doesn't mean he will do a bad job.

One of my concerns though is that as long as he is the dominate figure we might not ever get that coach who is required to take charge in the lookerroom.

Matney33
06-21-2006, 03:40 PM
Was it not the Simons that loved Ron so? I don't blame him either on the Maggette issue, Benders situation could make you think twice about taking on an injured player. Bird seems to be sticking with Carlisle, but that could have more to do with money at this point.

PacerMan
06-21-2006, 03:41 PM
I never liked him as a coach either. His judgement on players is questionable, Saras for sure. Just because Larry could overcome being too slow and can't jump doesn't mean that every slow white guy can. (sorry if that's racist)
Just because a guy was a great player doesn't mean he knows a lot about other aspects of the game. If anything I'd think there's a propensity to think that effort and practice can overcome all. Not for everyone.
I for one don't think Morrison will be anything AT ALL special in the NBA. IF Larry really does, and he turns out to be another Croshere (or Saras, or that other stiff white guy "Luke somebody"?? he liked a couple seasons ago), I'll feel sure about his inability to judge talent.

Young
06-21-2006, 03:46 PM
Wait was Larry was after we traded Brad Miller right? That and letting Ron Mercer go were the only bad things that happened since Bender. Harrington for Jackson wasn't great but I like both of them so I don't care.

I don't mean to sound like a prick, this isn't really directed towards you LSL, but I hate how some people don't understand why we traded Brad.Brad was dealt because we couldn't afford him and I would like to add that getting Scot Pollard was a good deal for us, considering that we could have got nothing at all if Brad would have went to the Jazz or Nuggets and that Pollard is a solid veteran big man, he just can't stay healthy with his bad back.

We had several possiable free agents that year. I think it was Tinsley/Foster/Bender that signed extensions before the season started and then we had Brad/Reggie/Jermaine as free agents that summer. We couldn't afford all 6...if I remember right.

Anyways back on topic, Larry is the right man for the job. Only I question how much power he has running the basketball operations. Is this his team or is it more of Donnie's? I love Donnie, he is awesome, but I have to say that for us to really see what Larry can do...I think that Donnie has to not be apart of the basketball operations and I don't think that will happen unless he is retired.

I like Larry as the president. He has a great basketball mind. I think that he has to not be on a leash though for us to really see what he can do. It's like riding a bike with training wheels if that makes any sense. I feel like Donnie still has a huge say in basketball operations, it's time to take the training wheels off of Larry. Let him show us what he can really do if this team has one voice in TPTB.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 03:48 PM
Larry's best contribution as a coach was his ability to teach mental toughness by example. That team, after hot-headed Larry Brown, just needed composure and confidence. His teams played within themselves and for the team. Just like his :censored:ing Celtics teams did. I think about Reggie's big shot against the Bulls in the ECFs, Larry didn't blink, didn't celebrate - he was ready to get the team ready to defend Jordan's last shot.

From the front office, he has not been able to repeat that. This team lacks mental toughness, composure, and teamwork. But he's too distant from the players to teach them mental toughness from behind a desk, and he doesn't seem to have a clue how to assemble players and coaches into a team.

He may not enjoy coaching, but I think he's a better fit on the bench than in the front office. And he's probably a better choice for coaching this team than his hand-picked guy.

Eh. Screw that. I still dislike all of the Green Guys and I won't miss him when he's gone.

As for "learning from Donnie Walsh" - Billy Knight spent a lot of time with DW, and he isn't exactly dominating the league from Atlanta. And Billy is one of our guys. I don't think Bird will be any better than Billy; and as a Pacers fan I identify with Billy Knight much more than I identify with one of the Green Guys.

Young
06-21-2006, 03:53 PM
IF Larry really does, and he turns out to be another Croshere (or Saras, or that other stiff white guy "Luke somebody"?? he liked a couple seasons ago), I'll feel sure about his inability to judge talent.

Actually I believe that Larry was targeting Ben Gordon. I know rumors were we wanted Luke Jackson, but I think that was more of a smokescreen. If Larry really wanted Luke Jackson back then, Al Harrington would be on the Cavs right now.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-21-2006, 03:53 PM
I don't mean to sound like a prick, this isn't really directed towards you LSL, but I hate how some people don't understand why we traded Brad.Brad was dealt because we couldn't afford him and I would like to add that getting Scot Pollard was a good deal for us, considering that we could have got nothing at all if Brad would have went to the Jazz or Nuggets and that Pollard is a solid veteran big man, he just can't stay healthy with his bad back.

We had several possiable free agents that year. I think it was Tinsley/Foster/Bender that signed extensions before the season started and then we had Brad/Reggie/Jermaine as free agents that summer. We couldn't afford all 6...if I remember right.

Anyways back on topic, Larry is the right man for the job. Only I question how much power he has running the basketball operations. Is this his team or is it more of Donnie's? I love Donnie, he is awesome, but I have to say that for us to really see what Larry can do...I think that Donnie has to not be apart of the basketball operations and I don't think that will happen unless he is retired.

I like Larry as the president. He has a great basketball mind. I think that he has to not be on a leash though for us to really see what he can do. It's like riding a bike with training wheels if that makes any sense. I feel like Donnie still has a huge say in basketball operations, it's time to take the training wheels off of Larry. Let him show us what he can really do if this team has one voice in TPTB.

Yeah I know he was let go for contract purposes so was JJ. I just have noticed its a touchy subject around here.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 03:55 PM
As much as I want to think its too eary to tell, I'm not sure it is. The biggest problem I have is that he doesn't seem to me the type to admit he's wrong. Which is a very bad thing for a GM. Think about it: He didn't get rid of Ron because he thought he could change him. He was wrong and he hurt us. He put all this stock into Sarunas, and as of last year, he was wrong. But he blames Rick for not playing him at the right spot. I mean, those are two HUGE moves that may or may not have cost us a championship in the last 2 years. When will it not be too early to tell anymore? When will it be too late? How many wrong moves do you get?

E - G - O.

If Bird can't get his ego under control, he'll be a failure no matter where he is the GM/ President.

He doesn't have to admit his mistakes publicly - just go about the business of fixing those mistakes. Like DW does. Like Dumars does. Like Riley does. Like Jerry West does.

But think about DW - he screwed up by trading away Mark Jackson when Brownie wanted to make Jackson the scapegoat of the 1996-96 playoffs (and those two passes toward Rik Smits in the last minutes of Game #5 that sailed out-of-bounds made Jackson an easy target). But eight months later, what did DW do? Re-acquire Mark Jackson.

Bird seems more interested in stubbornly proving that he was right in the first place, and doesn't know when to cut his losses and move on, or how to turn a negative into a positive.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-21-2006, 03:57 PM
E - G - O.

If Bird can't get his ego under control, he'll be a failure no matter where he is the GM/ President.

He doesn't have to admit his mistakes publicly - just go about the business of fixing those mistakes. Like DW does. Like Dumars does. Like Riley does. Like Jerry West does.

But think about DW - he screwed up by trading away Mark Jackson when Brownie wanted to make Jackson the scapegoat of the 1996-96 playoffs (and those two passes toward Rik Smits in the last minutes of Game #5 that sailed out-of-bounds made Jackson an easy target). But eight months later, what did DW do? Re-acquire Mark Jackson.

Bird seems more interested in stubbornly proving that he was right in the first place, and doesn't know when to cut his losses and move on, or how to turn a negative into a positive.

Now I know Jalen was the main piece in sending him to Denver but who else was involved and what did we give up to get him back?

P.S. Who knew that Escalade from And1 is Mark Jackson's younger brother. And1 is coming to Indy in July!

Hicks
06-21-2006, 04:08 PM
Strangely enough, I do agree with Jay that he'd probably be better as our coach than our GM right now.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 04:18 PM
We got Jalen and the rights to Dampier for Jackson, Ricky Pierce and our draft pick (which was used on a European player and I don't remember how to spell his name.)

To get Jackson back (along with getting Tank Thompson back), we traded Eddie Johnson and ??? (off to research :blush: EDIT - I was right in the first place, Vinnie Askew (:puke: ).

On the same day, we also traded Jerome Allen (who make Jamison Brewer look competent, he was that BAD) for Darvin Ham, who only played in one game for us.

clemdogg
06-21-2006, 04:25 PM
E - G - O.

If Bird can't get his ego under control, he'll be a failure no matter where he is the GM/ President.

He doesn't have to admit his mistakes publicly - just go about the business of fixing those mistakes. Like DW does. Like Dumars does. Like Riley does. Like Jerry West does.

But think about DW - he screwed up by trading away Mark Jackson when Brownie wanted to make Jackson the scapegoat of the 1996-96 playoffs (and those two passes toward Rik Smits in the last minutes of Game #5 that sailed out-of-bounds made Jackson an easy target). But eight months later, what did DW do? Re-acquire Mark Jackson.

Bird seems more interested in stubbornly proving that he was right in the first place, and doesn't know when to cut his losses and move on, or how to turn a negative into a positive.

Jay, I think you are exactly right. And the whole mental toughness thing would take us on to a whole new level of basketball talk, basically because I think mental toughness wins basketball games....period. Look at the last champions and the coaches of those champions: Pat Riley, Larry Brown, and G-Pop. Other than that, its Phil Jackson. I think Carlisle definitely has mental toughness and a mind for the game, but he can't express it to his players, and he takes too much $hi* from them.

Also, I agree that Bird doesn't need to make his mistakes public. But that doesn't mean go and blame it on Rick or anyone else either. Like in the Sarunas situation.

And Rommie, I think you are right in that none of us really know for sure how much influence and power Bird has had on some of these decisions. But I do know 2 things: Bird was the one in Europe scouting talent, not DW. 2) It was the media that made it sound like Bird was the one wanting, more than anybody, to keep Ronnie around. That was a mistake. Period. It wasn't like they couldn't have seen it coming, and I am not saying they knew it was going to happen. I'm saying I wasn't surprised when it happened because Ron is nuts. And they had to have at least considered him going nuts again in some capacity a possibilty. One or both of them (Bird and DW) rolled the dice, and one or both of them were wrong. Like I said, I feel like it was more DW letting Larry make the call.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 04:37 PM
And the whole mental toughness thing would take us on to a whole new level of basketball talk, basically because I think mental toughness wins basketball games....period.

I haven't exactly thought of it that way but I think you're 100% right.

Its cute to say "defense wins championships." But great defense is all about mental toughness.

That's what I've always said was the one thing that set Jordan (:censored: him) apart - it wasn't his skills (although he was skilled) it was his mental toughness.

Kegboy
06-21-2006, 04:39 PM
No.

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 04:44 PM
No.

He finally showed up on here, but I am so disappointed by your lack of passion. Show us how much you hate the man with his bad hair and porn mustache.

Kegboy
06-21-2006, 04:53 PM
He finally showed up on here, but I am so disappointed by your lack of passion. Show us how much you hate the man with his bad hair and porn mustache.
Well, I started to write a long retort to Jay's "he's a better coach" argument, but decided not to get into it. I will say that Larry never coached, he stood around looking pretty (well, not really), while Rick and Dick did all the heavy lifting. Is that vindictive enough for you?

:haterade:

PacerMan
06-21-2006, 05:31 PM
I don't mean to sound like a prick, this isn't really directed towards you LSL, but I hate how some people don't understand why we traded Brad.Brad was dealt because we couldn't afford him and I would like to add that getting Scot Pollard was a good deal for us, considering that we could have got nothing at all if Brad would have went to the Jazz or Nuggets and that Pollard is a solid veteran big man, he just can't stay healthy with his bad back.

We had several possiable free agents that year. I think it was Tinsley/Foster/Bender that signed extensions before the season started and then we had Brad/Reggie/Jermaine as free agents that summer. We couldn't afford all 6...if I remember right.

Anyways back on topic, Larry is the right man for the job. Only I question how much power he has running the basketball operations. Is this his team or is it more of Donnie's? I love Donnie, he is awesome, but I have to say that for us to really see what Larry can do...I think that Donnie has to not be apart of the basketball operations and I don't think that will happen unless he is retired.

I like Larry as the president. He has a great basketball mind. I think that he has to not be on a leash though for us to really see what he can do. It's like riding a bike with training wheels if that makes any sense. I feel like Donnie still has a huge say in basketball operations, it's time to take the training wheels off of Larry. Let him show us what he can really do if this team has one voice in TPTB.

We couldn't afford Brad because we overpaid those 3 guys. I won't fault him for signing JB like some do, I was all for that. BUt all 3 were overpaid.


Actually I believe that Larry was targeting Ben Gordon. I know rumors were we wanted Luke Jackson, but I think that was more of a smokescreen. If Larry really wanted Luke Jackson back then, Al Harrington would be on the Cavs right now.


Could be. But what is your reason for thinking he was targeting Ben Gordon?


Well, I started to write a long retort to Jay's "he's a better coach" argument, but decided not to get into it. I will say that Larry never coached, he stood around looking pretty (well, not really), while Rick and Dick did all the heavy lifting. Is that vindictive enough for you?

:haterade:


agreed. that was a veteran team that didn't need a lot of day to day direction. I've also read more than one point of view that he was a figurehead more than a leader.

Bball
06-21-2006, 05:49 PM
I need to know how Bird will run things unencumbered by Walsh... and hopefully with minimal interference from the Simons... before I can make too much of a comment about whether he's the right man for the job.

Really, the team now should be made in the image that Bird plans for our future. No halfway measures or compromises please. If Walsh plans to leave after this year then we'll be spinning our wheels and delaying the inevitable (whether that is a good eventuality or a bad one) until Bird fully has the keys.

If Bird sucks in putting a team together then the sooner we know it, and the sooner we know it's his sole responsibility, then the quicker we can hopefully move on.

OTOH, if he is going to be great at it then what are we waiting on?

-Bball

Young
06-21-2006, 05:56 PM
Could be. But what is your reason for thinking he was targeting Ben Gordon?

Because I believe that's what the rumors were, after the draft and it makes sense because there have been rumors about Bird still wanting Gordon.

Here is a link to the rumor.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19102

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 06:17 PM
Well, I started to write a long retort to Jay's "he's a better coach" argument, but decided not to get into it. I will say that Larry never coached, he stood around looking pretty (well, not really), while Rick and Dick did all the heavy lifting. Is that vindictive enough for you?

:haterade:


I wasn't exactly complimentary of his coaching. The only thing he did, IMO, was provide an example of mental toughness for the players to learn from. Nothing more, nothing less.

And he can't even do that from the front office.

He was - without a doubt - a great player with a great on-court basketball mind. We've never seen any evidence of that actually helping him in any of his post-playing jobs.

BoomBaby31
06-21-2006, 09:19 PM
He is the man for the job, of course I'd rather have him as coach though. I honestly think we have the best "organization" in NBA basketball. Carisle is the only question out of the whole group. I honestly believe we would of had a championship if Bird would of kept coaching.

Peck
06-21-2006, 10:46 PM
E - G - O.

If Bird can't get his ego under control, he'll be a failure no matter where he is the GM/ President.

He doesn't have to admit his mistakes publicly - just go about the business of fixing those mistakes. Like DW does. Like Dumars does. Like Riley does. Like Jerry West does.

But think about DW - he screwed up by trading away Mark Jackson when Brownie wanted to make Jackson the scapegoat of the 1996-96 playoffs (and those two passes toward Rik Smits in the last minutes of Game #5 that sailed out-of-bounds made Jackson an easy target). But eight months later, what did DW do? Re-acquire Mark Jackson.

Bird seems more interested in stubbornly proving that he was right in the first place, and doesn't know when to cut his losses and move on, or how to turn a negative into a positive.


I'm sorry I couldn't read another post after that right there. In fact I really stopped breathing altogether right after that & was only revived when I refused to follow Chuck Person into the light.

Are you kidding me?????

Admit his mistakes & fix them like D.W.? By DW you do mean Donnie Walsh right?

When, when does he admit his mistakes & change them? After it is to late & the entire problem falls apart?

Let me just name some recent issues for you.

Artest (I should be able to stop right there & not have to go on but I will)

Jon Bender (drafting him was not a problem, signing him to a huge contract when he had neither shown the ability to play nor the stamina to play is outragous)

Brad Miller (we can debate the merits of this however anybody likes but nobody can deny that trading for Pollard was a desperation move to just save face)

I'll stop there because I have to leave for awhile but I have many more if you would like.

clemdogg
06-22-2006, 12:37 AM
No, see, what Jay is saying is that DW realized he made mistakes. He was never quoted in The Star as blaming them on other people. And even with all of those mistakes that DW made...the Bender, the Brad Miller...we were still contenders. Like I said before, I place more blame for the Artest situation on Bird than I do DW.

And Boombaby, I partly agree with you about our organization. I think DW is a top guy. I mean, he is really good. I have no clue what he saw in Brad Miller or JO (and I could probably go on), but he really has a nice eye for talent, and players and personel seem to like him a lot. I'm not sure what else entails an organization, but I'm pretty sure the training staff falls under there, and I would say ours isn't very good at all. We can't keep any of our players healthy. Now that may just be because they don't want to stay healthy, but thats a different idea altogether.

ChicagoJ
06-22-2006, 10:28 AM
I'm sorry I couldn't read another post after that right there. In fact I really stopped breathing altogether right after that & was only revived when I refused to follow Chuck Person into the light.

Are you kidding me?????

Admit his mistakes & fix them like D.W.? By DW you do mean Donnie Walsh right?

When, when does he admit his mistakes & change them? After it is to late & the entire problem falls apart?

Let me just name some recent issues for you.

Okay. Key word being "recent." Donnie's reputation has certainly taken a few dings in recent years.


Artest (I should be able to stop right there & not have to go on but I will)

Somewhere along the line I heard that DW and Rick were sick of him/ his antics and wanted to move him, but Bird still felt *he* could rehabilitate Ronnie. I've always felt it was Bird that was driving the "We have to get equal value" truck because that was very un-DW like.


Jon Bender (drafting him was not a problem, signing him to a huge contract when he had neither shown the ability to play nor the stamina to play is outragous)

Agreed - the huge contracts for Bender and Artest, when they were unproven physically or mentally, was a very bad October in Pacers' history.


Brad Miller (we can debate the merits of this however anybody likes but nobody can deny that trading for Pollard was a desperation move to just save face)

Probably because that was our first S&T, and it came on the heels of Bird's hiring, I've always thought that (1) Bird undervalued Brad Miller; and (2) It was Bird that insisted on getting something in return (Pollard) when it would might have been smarter to just let Brad walk away (especially since we learned there were other teams willing to take Mercer in a salary-dump.)

I understand your points, and we don't fully know who to blame for these mistakes. But if nothing else DW seems like an even worse GM with Bird on board (thus, I would not object if the Simons decided to clean-house.)

Kegboy
06-22-2006, 11:16 AM
Agreed - the huge contracts for Bender and Artest, when they were unproven physically or mentally, was a very bad October in Pacers' history.

What everyone seems to forget is the Bender extension was not only right after the season where he played in 78 games and proved to be a valuable member of the rotation after Al went down, but also signed during the "Quick" preseason where Ron was hurt and Al and JB were playing incredibly well together in the open floor. And still Donnie only signed him to 3 years, when he could have signed him to 6.

PacerMan
06-22-2006, 11:42 AM
What everyone seems to forget is the Bender extension was not only right after the season where he played in 78 games and proved to be a valuable member of the rotation after Al went down, but also signed during the "Quick" preseason where Ron was hurt and Al and JB were playing incredibly well together in the open floor. And still Donnie only signed him to 3 years, when he could have signed him to 6.
\

Very good points. I think most here are guilty of very short memories when it comes to timing and details. Myself included.

ChicagoJ
06-22-2006, 11:44 AM
Three years? Huh? You sure about that?

Fool
06-22-2006, 11:47 AM
Hoopshype has JB's contract as going to 06-07.

vapacersfan
06-22-2006, 12:06 PM
Wow Jay, you never pass up a chance to blame Bird, do you?

I have no clue who is to blame on any of those (although as the GM one would assume Donnie has the last say on all calls, but that discussion has been beat to death), but I seem to remember that the Simons were the ones who wanted to keep giving Ron "one more chance".

Maybe I am just making that up, but I could have sworn I read that in more then one place, esp. after the season where the Pistons eliminated us in the ECF's.....

Kegboy
06-22-2006, 12:08 PM
Three years? Huh? You sure about that?

You're right, it was 4 years, $28 million. My bad.

Young
06-22-2006, 12:10 PM
Maybe I am just making that up, but I could have sworn I read that in more then one place, esp. after the season where the Pistons eliminated us in the ECF's.....

I don't think you are just making it up, because I also could have sworn that I read that too.

ChicagoJ
06-22-2006, 12:17 PM
-snip- but I seem to remember that the Simons were the ones who wanted to keep giving Ron "one more chance".

Maybe I am just making that up, but I could have sworn I read that in more then one place, esp. after the season where the Pistons eliminated us in the ECF's.....

That's been discussed, during the brawl aftermath when it was unclear how aggressively the Pacers were pursuing the opportunity to void Artest's contract. NOT during the summer of 2004 when Ron was being shopped for a superstar.

Have the Simons ever approved/ disapproved/ voiced any opinion of any other trade? That's one thing that's made them great owners - they let their basketball guys take care of the basketball decisions.

The only time I can think of the Simons meddling in the basketball operations was when DW decided not to renew Bo Hill's contract, while the Simons were in contact with the recently-retired Larry Bird. IIRC, Donnie had to convince the Simons that he & Larry Brown were a better choice to lead the team than Bird.

Los Angeles
06-22-2006, 12:27 PM
What everyone seems to forget is the Bender extension was not only right after the season where he played in 78 games and proved to be a valuable member of the rotation after Al went down, but also signed during the "Quick" preseason where Ron was hurt and Al and JB were playing incredibly well together in the open floor. And still Donnie only signed him to 3 years, when he could have signed him to 6.
Now THIS is a great post. Even at 4 years and not 3, your point still holds up.

vapacersfan
06-22-2006, 01:29 PM
That's been discussed, during the brawl aftermath when it was unclear how aggressively the Pacers were pursuing the opportunity to void Artest's contract. NOT during the summer of 2004 when Ron was being shopped for a superstar.


I stand corrected. My point still stands, but I see that they just didnt want to void his contract. I guess they wanted to be loyal :whoknows:



Have the Simons ever approved/ disapproved/ voiced any opinion of any other trade? That's one thing that's made them great owners - they let their basketball guys take care of the basketball decisions.


I realize that was rhetorical, but I honestly have no clue. In the short 5 years I have followed the team I havent heard them have a big (if any) impact, but then again they had a big enough impact with the Artest sage



The only time I can think of the Simons meddling in the basketball operations was when DW decided not to renew Bo Hill's contract, while the Simons were in contact with the recently-retired Larry Bird. IIRC, Donnie had to convince the Simons that he & Larry Brown were a better choice to lead the team than Bird.

Like I said I didnt start following the team refularly till around 2000-2001, so I assume that was before my time. Way to make me feel young ;)

grace
06-23-2006, 12:38 AM
Since FC didn't like Kegboy's answer of "No" I'll just say "Heck NO!"

Rather than rehash my reasons for thinking Bird is just this side of pond scum I'll instead offer up an alternative (assuming Donnie is going to retire):

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Sep-05-Fri-2003/photos/anthony.jpg








(Disclaimer: I cannot take credit/blame for the Greg Anthony theory. Eric Kuselias was guest hosting on Dan Patrick today. He said Greg Anthony will be a GM in the next 10 years. I'm just suggesting an acceleration of the time table.)

Young
06-23-2006, 12:51 AM
[QUOTE=grace]http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Sep-05-Fri-2003/photos/anthony.jpg[QUOTE]

Am I the only one that thinks Greg Anthony is full of it and would not be better than Larry?

grace
06-23-2006, 01:28 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Greg Anthony is full of it and would not be better than Larry?

Mark Jackson if full of it. As for Greg, my opinion is I have no opinion.

Bball
06-23-2006, 01:56 AM
Now THIS is a great post. Even at 4 years and not 3, your point still holds up.

Except it's a stretch to say JB ever played incredibly well. He barely brushed against mediocre and the fact he was any use at all for a season didn't mean he deserved to be offered a contract of a size he couldn't refuse. He was so far down the list of important cogs at that point he should've been allowed to play out the season (and his existing contract) and establish his FA value. Or better still... traded while he had any value left at all. He never should've gotten an extension.

Trading AD for the 5th pick in the draft- fine.
Trading AD for Bender- stupid. Very. Wrong time. Wrong team.
Not cutting our losses with Bender MUCH sooner- Inexcusable

-Bball

Robertmto
06-23-2006, 03:19 AM
Greg Anthony as a GM >> MJ as a GM

vapacersfan
06-23-2006, 05:53 AM
Greg Anthony as a GM >> MJ as a GM

That's not saying much. Hell, vapacersfan as a GM >> MJ as a GM.........

hoopsforlife
06-23-2006, 08:01 AM
Except it's a stretch to say JB ever played incredibly well. He barely brushed against mediocre and the fact he was any use at all for a season didn't mean he deserved to be offered a contract of a size he couldn't refuse. He was so far down the list of important cogs at that point he should've been allowed to play out the season (and his existing contract) and establish his FA value. Or better still... traded while he had any value left at all. He never should've gotten an extension.

Trading AD for the 5th pick in the draft- fine.
Trading AD for Bender- stupid. Very. Wrong time. Wrong team.
Not cutting our losses with Bender MUCH sooner- Inexcusable

-Bball

All posts by Bball - Priceless...

:)

PS: I find myself agreeing with you most of the time. And it scares me. :thumbup: :highfive:

bulletproof
06-23-2006, 08:05 AM
What everyone seems to forget is the Bender extension was not only right after the season where he played in 78 games and proved to be a valuable member of the rotation after Al went down, but also signed during the "Quick" preseason where Ron was hurt and Al and JB were playing incredibly well together in the open floor. And still Donnie only signed him to 3 years, when he could have signed him to 6.

Maybe Bball will make this his new sig...?

PacerMan
06-23-2006, 08:07 AM
Now THIS is a great post. Even at 4 years and not 3, your point still holds up.


Man, I remember how excited I was thinking our future front line was going to be Jermaine/Al/JB. They DID look like they had incredible potential together. That was pre Head Case.

bulletproof
06-23-2006, 08:07 AM
Except it's a stretch to say JB ever played incredibly well. He barely brushed against mediocre and the fact he was any use at all for a season didn't mean he deserved to be offered a contract of a size he couldn't refuse. He was so far down the list of important cogs at that point he should've been allowed to play out the season (and his existing contract) and establish his FA value. Or better still... traded while he had any value left at all. He never should've gotten an extension.

Trading AD for the 5th pick in the draft- fine.
Trading AD for Bender- stupid. Very. Wrong time. Wrong team.
Not cutting our losses with Bender MUCH sooner- Inexcusable

-Bball

Can we have a Most Amazing Hindsight Award next year?

PacerMan
06-23-2006, 08:10 AM
Except it's a stretch to say JB ever played incredibly well. He barely brushed against mediocre and the fact he was any use at all for a season didn't mean he deserved to be offered a contract of a size he couldn't refuse. He was so far down the list of important cogs at that point he should've been allowed to play out the season (and his existing contract) and establish his FA value. Or better still... traded while he had any value left at all. He never should've gotten an extension.

Trading AD for the 5th pick in the draft- fine.
Trading AD for Bender- stupid. Very. Wrong time. Wrong team.
Not cutting our losses with Bender MUCH sooner- Inexcusable

-Bball


Couldn't disagree more. He looked like he was becoming a valuable piece who hadn't yet tapped his potential. He would have gotten BIG offers if he'd gone free agent. The Pacers made NO mistakes with Bender. Sure as hell not their fault his knees puked. Head Case was the ONLY one they should have cut loose sooner.

Bball
06-23-2006, 10:48 AM
Can we have a Most Amazing Hindsight Award next year?

No hindsight there at all. That was my call all along.

-Bball


Maybe Bball will make this his new sig...?

No, because that is inaccurate....

-Bball

bulletproof
06-23-2006, 10:57 AM
No hindsight there at all. That was my call all along.

Seems you're in the wrong profession then. Donnie's leaving after next year, maybe they will make room for you in the front office. Pay is good.



No, because that is inaccurate...

Change the 3 to 4.

Bball
06-23-2006, 11:07 AM
Seems you're in the wrong profession then. Donnie's leaving after next year, maybe they will make room for you in the front office. Pay is good.




Change the 3 to 4.

It would still be inaccurate. Bender did nothing to deserve that extension. And the timing couldn't have been worse for Donnie to take that kind of monetary gamble...

-Bball

bulletproof
06-23-2006, 11:27 AM
It would still be inaccurate. Bender did nothing to deserve that extension. And the timing couldn't have been worse for Donnie to take that kind of monetary gamble...

-Bball

Take all your posts about everything Donnie did wrong and what you would have done, put it in resumé form and submit it to the Simons. I'm sure they'd make room for you in the front office.

Bball
06-23-2006, 11:33 AM
Take all your posts about everything Donnie did wrong and what you would have done, put it resumé form and submit it to the Simons. I'm sure they'd make room for you in the front office.

No, it's time to let Larry Bird sink or swim on his own. :tongue:

-Bball

Los Angeles
06-23-2006, 12:52 PM
Except it's a stretch to say JB ever played incredibly well. He barely brushed against mediocre and the fact he was any use at all for a season didn't mean he deserved to be offered a contract of a size he couldn't refuse. He was so far down the list of important cogs at that point he should've been allowed to play out the season (and his existing contract) and establish his FA value. Or better still... traded while he had any value left at all. He never should've gotten an extension.

Trading AD for the 5th pick in the draft- fine.
Trading AD for Bender- stupid. Very. Wrong time. Wrong team.
Not cutting our losses with Bender MUCH sooner- Inexcusable

-Bball
Well, you quoted me when you wrote this, so i guess I have a duty to respond.

Bender was a monstrously athletic 7 footer with both a slashing game AND a deadly outside shot. At his best, he was not a tough man to defend, he was an impossible man to defend. Bender in the rough was seen by many as a potential diamond that could become a player not unlike how we see many all-stars today. My ONLY worry about him was his terrible understanding of team game basics.

Regardless, trading a disgruntled AD for that was absolutely the right move, and extending Bender as insurance against the in-house clashes at both forward positions was the safer move. Bender was poised to break out, signed the deal and broke down instead. You can't fault Donnie for that, in fact you can only credit him for keeping the contract reasonable, remaining patient, and keeping the phone lines open.

Once Bender was chronically injured, do you really think that he would have passed a trade physical? As I see it, once the injuries mounted, he was an impossible sell, like selling a house after it falls off a cliff.

grace
06-23-2006, 01:02 PM
Greg Anthony as a GM >> MJ as a GM

I already have the first test for these two to take. Greg says Larry should sit out a year. Mike Wilbon seems to think that Jordan will try to get Brown to coach Charlotte.

Personally, I think Larry would be stupid to take that (or any) job. The Knicks' job was supposed to be his dream job and look how it turned out. Besides I don't want him messing up PB. You think Kegboy gets testy now. :-o

bulletproof
06-23-2006, 01:11 PM
As I see it, once the injuries mounted, he was an impossible sell, like selling a house after it falls off a cliff.

A metaphor only a Los Angelinos would use. ;)

Los Angeles
06-23-2006, 01:34 PM
A metaphor only a Los Angelinos would use. ;)
Safety first:

http://www.thedigitalbuffalo.com/cali/caliimages/houseoncliff500.jpg

;)

Kegboy
06-24-2006, 08:44 AM
Except it's a stretch to say JB ever played incredibly well.

If I ever get my hands on a tape of the 4/12/02 OT game against Milwaukee which got us into the playoffs that year, I might just kidnap Bball and Peck, tape their eyes open, and force them to watch it 24/7 for a week or two.

:hypnotize

Hicks
06-24-2006, 11:27 AM
So you're saying after the '01 Christmas game, he had another dandy, and that's what made the contract OK? :stirthepo

Bball
06-24-2006, 12:00 PM
So you're saying after the '01 Christmas game, he had another dandy, and that's what made the contract OK? :stirthepo

Don't forget the 1st half of that Sacremento game at Conseco a couple of years ago! Gotta throw that one in there too. That makes 3 games... altho he already had his extension by then.

...And he left the game never to return with a 'shoulder' injury. Did he even return that season?

Ahhh yes... reliving Bender's great moments. That kills a few seconds...

-Bball

Peck
06-24-2006, 12:14 PM
If I ever get my hands on a tape of the 4/12/02 OT game against Milwaukee which got us into the playoffs that year, I might just kidnap Bball and Peck, tape their eyes open, and force them to watch it 24/7 for a week or two.

:hypnotize


And at the end of that week or two I still would be waiting to see him box out, defend a cutter or move without the ball.

Kegboy
06-24-2006, 01:55 PM
Laugh it up, fuzzball. You'll see.

:evillaugh: