PDA

View Full Version : Offense Clearly Wins Championships



Sollozzo
06-21-2006, 11:57 AM
This series just reinforced my belief that offense is what really wins championships. Great offense and a decent team defense has always won titles in the league. What the Pistons did in 04 was not the standard, it was the exception to the rule. We won't see a team built like that that will win it all again for a long time. It's possible that they can win the title again next year, but as far as other teams building with that mold, I just don't think it will work.

I get so tired of hearing defense wins championships. In game 5, it was obvious that neither of these teams were going to stop each other. Whoever could put up the best offense down the stretch was going to win this basketball game. Would it be Dirk or Wade who delievered? Neither of them were going to be stopped. Your D just has to be good enough to allow you to outscore the other team by 1 point. Hey, that's what Miami did in game 5.

Defense wins in the regular season. Defense gets you 55 or 60 wins when half of those wins are against garbage teams who are easy to stop. It's offense that wins in the playoffs. Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Wade, Hakeem.....all of those guys were the best offensive players who could take over the game. No team would have been able to put a defensive package together to stop any of these guys in their prime.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-21-2006, 12:01 PM
Good post, I agree.

Peck
06-21-2006, 12:18 PM
somewhere right now Uncle Buck is having an out of body experiance.

Unclebuck
06-21-2006, 12:22 PM
"Offense clearly wins championships"


There, I guess I can type those 4 words.


Edit: To suggest that offense wins championships is as shortsighted as saying defense wins championships. Obviously you need both, but more than that you need timely offense and timely defense.

In all honesty it comes down to this for me and it was clearly evident in this series. You have to be able to score at the end of close playoff games and you must be able to get stops at the end of close playoff games. The Heat were better in both departments and that is why they won.

Of course first you have to be good enough to get into position to be in close playoff games.

But make no mistake about one thing. The Heats defense was excellent in this series. They defended Dirk a lot better than the Spurs did.

One final point. The new defensive rules have shifted the advantage to the offense. So maybe a team like the Pistons in 2004 (who were the best defensive team I've ever seen under the "old rules") maybe they couldn't win it under these new rules.

BillS
06-21-2006, 12:48 PM
In all cases the statements from the players indicate that the reason the Heat have been so much stronger is that their defense stepped it up immensely under R... R... R... their current coach.

This year's Pacers showed clearly that defense isn't the only thing. However, I am of the opinion that you have to get that stop before you can guarantee an opportunity to make the offense work. The elite teams all have offense, so you have to be able to take them out of it in order for your own offense to have a chance to dominate.

Slick Pinkham
06-21-2006, 12:50 PM
I couldn't disagree more.

Miami is an aberration. Dallas made themselves easy to defend.

The Bulls won in the 90s playing the best defense I've ever seen. The Spurs and Pistons also won with it.

You probably have to go back to the showtime Lakers before you see the best offensive team winning a title, and they played good D too.

Kegboy
06-21-2006, 12:54 PM
Simply ludicrous statement. Both Miami and Dallas got to the finals because they finally had coaches who got their players to buy into team defense. (Avery is obvious, but Pat also succeeded in getting that roster to play both ends when Stan couldn't.) Do teams need a SA or Detroit lockdown D to win? No, but if offense won championships, Phoenix would have won the last couple years and either Nellie's Dallas or Byron's NJ would have won the couple before that.

What this finals taught me is, regardless of this "new NBA" talk, basketball is still won in the post.

Slick Pinkham
06-21-2006, 12:55 PM
and why did Dallas shoot 37% last night Adam, or Larry?

Didn't seem like an offensive shootout to me.

Pacersfan46
06-21-2006, 12:56 PM
Guess what?

Winning wins championships.

Amazing how that works, isn't it? It doesn't matter how you get there. I'm tired of hearing one or the other wins championships. Blah.

SoupIsGood
06-21-2006, 12:57 PM
You need both. A balanced team that features a dominant scorer is the way to go.

Since86
06-21-2006, 12:58 PM
Offense clearly wins championships?

HUH!?

Look over the Dallas roster and the Miami roster. Which team has more scorers?

Dallas has 4 starters that are capable of getting 20+ easily any given night. Then add in Stack.

Miami has Wade, maybe Walker, and Shaq when he wants too. Shaq scored NINE points, yet offense clearly wins?

Shade
06-21-2006, 01:12 PM
Superstars clearly win championships.


You need both. A balanced team that features a dominant scorer is the way to go.

OFT

Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Olajuwon, Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc.

Detroit was a bit of an aberration, though Billups and Rip went nuts at times.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 01:18 PM
Point differential wins championships.

Would you rather have a team that wins 82-76 or 102-96? Both teams are plus-six.

And sometimes, you're just going to give up more than 76 points so you need to be able to score. And some nights, you won't be able to score so you need to be able to defend.

Teams that emphasize offense do so because they don't have confidence in their players to play defense. Teams that emphasize defense do so because they don't have (enough) competent offensive players.

Fool
06-21-2006, 01:38 PM
Antione Walker wins championships. Well, one at least.

Shade
06-21-2006, 01:41 PM
Antione Walker wins championships. Well, one at least.

Miami won despite Fatty. He was damn near the Mavs' MVP.

Roy Munson
06-21-2006, 01:54 PM
This series proves that FREE THROWS win championships.

Arcadian
06-21-2006, 01:55 PM
What wins championship is having the two best players, inside presense and players accepting their roles.

If the series changed my opinion on anything it is coaching. Riley did an amazing job with his players and clearly out coach Avery.

DisplacedKnick
06-21-2006, 02:02 PM
If offense won championships then Phoenix would have rings and Dallas would have won this series.

Obviously you have to put the ball in the basket but you can be a mid-level offensive team and top defensive team and win a title (see Detroit and the Spurs). You can't be a top offensive team and mid-level defense and win it. Even the Lakers those years when their stats weren't very good during the regular season really turned up the pressure in the playoffs.

bread
06-21-2006, 02:03 PM
I don't see Miami as being either an offesive juggernaut nor a superb defensive team (although they did a good job of being physical with Dirk). Their Offense was more clutch than anything. Several players stepped up at crunch time besides Wade who was clearly the most clutch of anyone else on the court. But GP, Haslem and Posey also made big shots at the end of games 3, 5 and 6.

Add that to the fact that Dallas threw up all over themselves in clutch situations and that was it, game over.

Dirk missed the free throw in Game 3 that would have sent it to OT.
Dirk and Howard both blew FTs in game 5.
The whole team was missing open shots down the stretch in game 6 including going 2-18 :-o from 3 with several being open looks.

Dallas also didn't take advantage late in the 4th last night when both Shaq and Zo were on the bench and they were within 5-6 pts. They kept firing up from the perimeter when they could have gone in the lane with no fear of getting their shot blocked. Poor recognition by the Mavs.

Bottom line is that Miami made shots when they had to and Dallas didn't. IMO it was not a case of either great offense or defense.

D-BONE
06-21-2006, 02:16 PM
I don't see Miami as being either an offesive juggernaut nor a superb defensive team (although they did a good job of being physical with Dirk). Their Offense was more clutch than anything. Several players stepped up at crunch time besides Wade who was clearly the most clutch of anyone else on the court. But GP, Haslem and Posey also made big shots at the end of games 3, 5 and 6.

Add that to the fact that Dallas threw up all over themselves in clutch situations and that was it, game over.

Dirk missed the free throw in Game 3 that would have sent it to OT.
Dirk and Howard both blew FTs in game 5.
The whole team was missing open shots down the stretch in game 6 including going 2-18 :-o from 3 with several being open looks.

Dallas also didn't take advantage late in the 4th last night when both Shaq and Zo were on the bench and they were within 5-6 pts. They kept firing up from the perimeter when they could have gone in the lane with no fear of getting their shot blocked. Poor recognition by the Mavs.

Bottom line is that Miami made shots when they had to and Dallas didn't. IMO it was not a case of either great offense or defense.

NICE ANSWER! I'm with you.

Hicks
06-21-2006, 02:27 PM
The Heat won because Wade took over. The #1 thing I want to see my team have before I start thinking about raising a banner is a guy that can't be stopped at the end of a close game.

Beyond that, I don't believe in "*insert one single aspect of the game here* wins championships". If any, I wouldn't say defense or offense, but rather rebounding. If my team has the dominant player, especially if he's a guard, and we control the boards, I bet we'll win more than anyone else.

Bball
06-21-2006, 02:55 PM
Defense should be a constant... offense comes and goes. Your defense needs the ability to take up the slack when the offense goes into a slump.

BTW... no rebounds, no rings...

-Bball

Leisure Suit Larry
06-21-2006, 03:02 PM
Defense is boring

Unclebuck
06-21-2006, 03:07 PM
Defense is boring

blasphemy

Arcadian
06-21-2006, 03:11 PM
It should also be pointed out that Miami had 2 defenders who could match up with Dirk in Haslem and Posey. That is something neither the Spurs or Suns had.

Bball
06-21-2006, 04:59 PM
Coaching wins championships too...

-Bball

SoupIsGood
06-21-2006, 05:38 PM
Champions win Championships....

Sollozzo
06-21-2006, 05:48 PM
Offense clearly wins championships?

HUH!?

Look over the Dallas roster and the Miami roster. Which team has more scorers?

Dallas has 4 starters that are capable of getting 20+ easily any given night. Then add in Stack.

Miami has Wade, maybe Walker, and Shaq when he wants too. Shaq scored NINE points, yet offense clearly wins?


You missed the point. Wade was the best offensive player. Superior to any of the players Dallas has. It's not about having a bunch of decent scorers as much as it is having that one player like Wade, Jordan, or a Diesel in his prime. Hell, the Kings in 02 had more scorers than the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, but Shaq and Kobe were superior to anything the Kings had. My point wasn't about having the most scorers, it was about having the BEST scorer.

He averaged 34 points, so yes, he basically took over the series.

I said in my initial post that the best offensive players have led their teams to titles 9 times out of 10.

06: Wade
03, 05: Duncan(easily takes over the game on the offensive end when called upon)
00-02: Shaq, Kobe
96-98: Jordan
94, 95: Hakeem
91-93:Jordan

I think the pattern is obvious. Outside of the 04 Pistons, every champion you look at had the best offensive superstar of the day. Were the Lakers from 00-02 a superb defensive team? Not really. They played good enough defense, but they clearly won because no one could stop their offense.


Simply ludicrous statement. Both Miami and Dallas got to the finals because they finally had coaches who got their players to buy into team defense. (Avery is obvious, but Pat also succeeded in getting that roster to play both ends when Stan couldn't.) Do teams need a SA or Detroit lockdown D to win? No, but if offense won championships, Phoenix would have won the last couple years and either Nellie's Dallas or Byron's NJ would have won the couple before that.

What this finals taught me is, regardless of this "new NBA" talk, basketball is still won in the post.


I said in my initial post that you needed team defense.

Did Phoenix or Byron's Nets ever have the BEST offensive players? I think you've missed my point. I meant that you have to have plaeyrs like JOrdan, Shaq or Duncan who can take over. Phoenix or NJ never had those type of plaeyrs. Who was NJ beat by in the finals? Lakers and Spurs. NJ may have had more offensive weapons than the Lakers in 02, but the Lakers had the one offensive weapon in Shaq who couldn't be stopped.

I knew that the first thing I would hear on this thread is that "If offense wins, Phoenix and Dallas would have rings."

But the point is, Phoenix and Dallas never had the BEST offensive players. Dallas was beaten by Miami, who had a player who could dominate on the offensive end and take over the game. No one on Dallas was capable of that, despite the fact that they probably have more "complete" scorers than Miami does.

Kegboy
06-21-2006, 06:51 PM
Okay, your argument is having the best offensive player wins championships, not offense wins championships. So then, where's Kobe?

Sollozzo
06-21-2006, 07:01 PM
Okay, your argument is having the best offensive player wins championships, not offense wins championships. So then, where's Kobe?


Polishing his 3 rings?

If Kobe can get a cast of players around him like MJ had, he'll bring another title to LA.

I'm not saying that it's a one man show. But modern NBA history shows that outside of 04 Pistons, the team who wins the title always has one of the best players who can take over. I would say that anytime in the league, there are 5 players in that mold. Next year, it may not be DWADE who leads his team to a title. But I bet that it will be Lebron, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk(if he can elevate to a level like Wade did).....or the Pistons (the one team in modern history who won a title without the typical mold.

bulldog
06-21-2006, 07:46 PM
Dick Bavetta wins championships.

Eindar
06-21-2006, 07:51 PM
Polishing his 3 rings?

If Kobe can get a cast of players around him like MJ had, he'll bring another title to LA.

I'm not saying that it's a one man show. But modern NBA history shows that outside of 04 Pistons, the team who wins the title always has one of the best players who can take over. I would say that anytime in the league, there are 5 players in that mold. Next year, it may not be DWADE who leads his team to a title. But I bet that it will be Lebron, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk(if he can elevate to a level like Wade did).....or the Pistons (the one team in modern history who won a title without the typical mold.

Odom, Kwame, and Mihm aren't exactly chopped liver, and I think you'll see it next year. All they need is A) a "Phil Jackson PG" or B) A coach that will let them play more transition. They have quality players, it's just a matter of seeing if Kobe can go 1 season without poisoning his own well.

I think, given the new rules, you need a balanced team with clutch players.

BlueNGold
06-21-2006, 09:00 PM
The most recent dynasties, Detroit and San Antonio, have won championships and/or been featured in the finals primarily because of their defense. If you look back to prior years, the average ppg allowed by the champions has gone down from over 100 to the low 90's and even the 80's for the Pistons. Even da' Bulls had a great defense compared to previous dynasties like the Celtics. They had lower avg ppg than many previous champions, but would have crushed them easily.

The argument that offense wins championships misses the point. Of course it does. So does chemistry, coaching and referees. The point is, the game has changed. It changed in about 1989 when the Bad Boys brought their brand of defense to the game. The Bad Boys taught the league how to play D. It was always obvious that offense was important....and you will always find great players who want to stuff the stat sheet with scoring, but not as many who want to do the dirty work and are good at it. That's why people need to be reminded that......

grace
06-23-2006, 12:17 AM
Dick Bavetta wins championships.

I was waiting for someone to say that. Your answer should have been more generic. Something like "refs win championships. :stirthepo"

Bball
06-23-2006, 02:01 AM
I was waiting for someone to say that. Your answer should have been more generic. Something like "refs win championships. :stirthepo"

Conspiracies win championships...

-Bball

Robertmto
06-23-2006, 03:16 AM
None of you guys are right. You don't decide; Stern decides who wins championships.

We need 2 Stern smileys. :stern: and :conspiracystern: