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View Full Version : Legler just said the Pacers are a contending team in the east



Unclebuck
06-21-2006, 09:34 AM
Tim Legler was on ESPN radio and was talking about next season and he said in the east, the Heat, Pistons, Cavs and Pacers will be the best 4 teams.

Doesn't that make your summer. We're back baby

Bball
06-21-2006, 09:37 AM
Great!!! We can stand pat!

Monument Circle will look great in the parade.

-Bball

bulletproof
06-21-2006, 09:38 AM
Tim Legler was on ESPN radio and was talking about next season and he said in the east, the Heat, Pistons, Cavs and Pacers will be the best 4 teams.

No he didn't! That's impossible! (If you believe some people around here)

D-BONE
06-21-2006, 09:38 AM
Tim Legler was on ESPN radio and was talking about next season and he said in the east, the Heat, Pistons, Cavs and Pacers will be the best 4 teams.

Doesn't that make your summer. We're back baby

Whoa! Timmy, time to get off the sauce!

Seriously, any basis for this? With or without significant roster changes?

It could happen, but I still find this a fairly bold prediction on his part. Although I suppose he's not narrowing it down to the EC champ or anything.

Unclebuck
06-21-2006, 09:41 AM
Whoa! Timmy, time to get off the sauce!

Seriously, any basis for this? With or without significant roster changes?

It could happen, but I still find this a fairly bold prediction on his part. Although I suppose he's not narrowing it down to the EC champ or anything.



He didn't get into any specifics and he just mentioned and and I should point out the Pacers were the last of the teams in the east he mentioned.

Stryder
06-21-2006, 09:42 AM
And Legler was a good player?

D-BONE
06-21-2006, 09:44 AM
And Legler was a good player?

And Legler is a good commentator/prognosticator?

P.S.-I do believe he picked the Heat in six.

Steve McQueen
06-21-2006, 09:56 AM
I've been saying this since day 1. You cant put any stock into the past 2 seasons, these seasons have been 2 of the craziest any team has ever faced in league history. What we saw wasnt our true team, but some broken down imposter. If we can make a few minor moves and get and stay healthy, we're easily a 50+ win team.

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 09:59 AM
I've been saying this since day 1. You cant put any stock into the past 2 seasons, these seasons have been 2 of the craziest any team has ever faced in league history. What we saw wasnt our true team, but some broken down imposter. If we can make a few minor moves and get and stay healthy, we're easily a 50+ win team.

The problem is that we have to get to a point where the guys actually like playing with each other. A team where some players (Jack and Tins) refuse to pass the ball to other players (Saras) cannot go very far.

MagicRat
06-21-2006, 10:00 AM
:sunshine:

Putnam
06-21-2006, 10:23 AM
If we can make a few minor moves and get and stay healthy, we're easily a 50+ win team.


May I respectfully suggest a moratorium on vague phrases like the one above? What do you mean, Steve McQueen, by minor?

Some people are saying "blow it up" and others are saying "tweak it" and they may actually want very nearly the same thing.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 10:25 AM
They could be a 50-win team and the fourth best team in a three-team race.

Big deal.

:unimpress

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 10:26 AM
They could be a 50-win team and the fourth best team in a three-team race.

Big deal.

:unimpress

I'll take it!

Shade
06-21-2006, 10:33 AM
They could be a 50-win team and the fourth best team in a three-team race.

Big deal.

:unimpress

That's what I was gonna say. So we're the fourth best team in the East? Big freakin' whoop. :unimpress

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 10:40 AM
I'll take it!

Can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic?

I'd rather have a re-vamped team spend a season or two at 0.500 with a chance of getting back to the Elite than bringing this team back to win 50 games and get upset by the #5 seed in the first round.

Steve McQueen
06-21-2006, 10:42 AM
We're better than the Cavs, and if the Pistons lose Ben Wallace to free agency, we're better than them, too.

Frank Slade
06-21-2006, 10:46 AM
Can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic?

I'd rather have a re-vamped team spend a season or two at 0.500 with a chance of getting back to the Elite than bringing this team back to win 50-wins and get upset by the #5 seed in the first round.

Agreed, put my name on that list

:signit:

bulletproof
06-21-2006, 10:46 AM
And we seem to have the Heat's number!

317Kim
06-21-2006, 10:51 AM
We're better than the Cavs, and if the Pistons lose Ben Wallace to free agency, we're better than them, too.



And we seem to have the Heat's number!


I like where this is going. Extra :sunshine:

Hicks
06-21-2006, 10:52 AM
61 wins!!!

Wait, I hate when people do that.

I got nothin'.

Frank Slade
06-21-2006, 11:05 AM
Maybe the Pacers should retire Jordan's Jersey and then that will break the curse ? :shrug:

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 11:10 AM
Maybe the Pacers should retire Jordan's Jersey and then that will break the curse ? :shrug:

:banhim:

Unclebuck
06-21-2006, 11:11 AM
WE'RE GOING TO WIN IT ALL NEXT SEASON.

btowncolt
06-21-2006, 11:13 AM
:banhim:

I hope we retire Bird's jersey.

Bball
06-21-2006, 11:14 AM
And we seem to have the Heat's number!

There will be a special ceremony at the season opener to hang that banner in the rafters.

"The Indiana Pacers 05-06- a regular season nightmare for the NBA Champion Miami Heat".

-Bball

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 11:19 AM
I hope we retire Bird's jersey.

:finger:


There will be a special ceremony at the season opener to hang that banner in the rafters.

"The Indiana Pacers 05-06- a regular season nightmare for the NBA Champion Miami Heat".

-Bball

There's a place for it right next to the "61 Wins!!" banner. :-p

Skaut_Ech
06-21-2006, 11:27 AM
There will be a special ceremony at the season opener to hang that banner in the rafters.

"The Indiana Pacers 05-06- a regular season nightmare for the NBA Champion Miami Heat".

-Bball


:lolchair::evillaugh




:tip:

Frank Slade
06-21-2006, 11:30 AM
Whatever happened to our "Loudest 6th Man Banner" ?

:sad:

Bball
06-21-2006, 11:40 AM
Whatever happened to our "Loudest 6th Man Banner" ?

:sad:

Miami and Sacremento are fighting over it...

-Bball

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic?

I'd rather have a re-vamped team spend a season or two at 0.500 with a chance of getting back to the Elite than bringing this team back to win 50 games and get upset by the #5 seed in the first round.

I just thought that it was a succinct response that would generate a response. But seriously, I have been agreeing with almost everything that you are saying for the past two weeks or so, so I will not stop now. I just want everyone to go on record saying that they are OK with a bad season or two so that I can call them out when they are on here complaining about 20 point losses to the Bucks,Hawks and Sonics in December while the Raptors are on their way to 50 wins with JO and Bosh. No calling for DW's head for making the trade when it appears to have worked out well in the short term for the Raps while Bargnani struggles with the transition to the NBA game. Remember, this is what we wanted.

Shade
06-21-2006, 11:50 AM
WE'RE GOING TO WIN IT ALL NEXT SEASON.

:lol: :crazy2:

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 11:50 AM
Maybe the Pacers should retire Jordan's Jersey and then that will break the curse ? :shrug:

Let's retire Wade's too and then the whole crowd can spit at them in a ritual fashion before every home game.

Los Angeles
06-21-2006, 11:55 AM
I'll take it!
I'll gladly take that, too.

Putnam
06-21-2006, 12:22 PM
I just want everyone to go on record saying that they are OK with a bad season or two so that I can call them out when they are on here complaining about 20 point losses to the Bucks,Hawks and Sonics

Nobody wants a bad season. Nobody is saying they want the Pacers to be a door mat. If they play rotten and lose badly, then nobody is going to like that.

But if the team seems to have turned a corner, then there probably are a lot of people on this board who would be OK with a 35-win season with a lot of evident upside.

+ Imagine Granger averaging a double-double.
+ Imagine the crowd getting behind every sloppy Rajon Rondo field goal as if it was a Reggie 3-pointer.
+ Imagine Jeff Foster draining a few shots from eight feet away.
+ Imagine Harrison staying on the floor for 35-40 minutes.
+ Imagine Peja leading the NBA in 3s.
+ Imagine the Pacers occasionally outscoring the opponent on fastbreak points.
+ Imagine Stephen Jackson being on the other team.

Unclebuck
06-21-2006, 12:33 PM
In all seriousness, let's assume for sake of discussion, that the pacers re-sign peja, Granger improves as expected, JO is not traded, Tinsley and Jax are traded and the Pacers somehow acquire a reasonable starting shooting guard and somehow get a decent starting point guard.

There is no reason to suggest the Pacers can't win around 50 games next season and if they did they would be in the hunt for the 4th seed and homecourt advantage.

But is that what we want.

rel
06-21-2006, 12:33 PM
Imagine Stephen Jackson being on the other team.

sounds good to me. the pacers would lead the league in opponents's FG%
:)

Young
06-21-2006, 12:41 PM
Legler got 3 of the 4 top teams right.

The Heat, who knows what they will do. They probably won't be as strong next year. They have a lot of older guys, how much do they have left in the tank and will they even play or retire?

The Pistons, well I doubt they keep their same guys after that playoff lost. They are still a question mark.

The Cavs, they played great against the Pistons, I think they still need to get better at PG and maybe some better depth overall to be the best in the East. They are very close.

Then there is us. We have way to many question marks and we are to injury prone and this team just didn't play well together, IMO. I don't get how Legler picked us over the Nets.

BillS
06-21-2006, 12:43 PM
The "realists" who think that two years of sub-par seasons from giving away any top players we have for players with "potential" would be enough to vault us back to Conference Finals and NBA Finals territory need to put down the grape juice and walk away slowly.

We could tank two seasons in a row by forfeiting every game and we still would not be guaranteed a high enough pick in the draft to make it worth our while. We wouldn't have anyone left to use to trade up because we would have gotten rid of them. We wouldn't have been able to develop a teamwork ethic because the team foundation (not the "superstar" but the bench and role players) won't have been together long enough.

If we were to choose to go for the drop out of sight and develop potential route, I pretty much guarantee we'll be looking at Chicago Bulls style 5-6 years minimum before being back in contention, much less elite.

It's not like there's a Dwayne Wade and a LeBron James every draft - most of the ones hyped at that level bust or turn out to be players who can't lead the rest of their team anywhere.

It certainly is a valid option to try to re-tool completely and get the kind of draft lottery position that only comes from being stinkaroonie. But don't fool yourselves into thinking it's just a couple of years and everything will suddenly glow with hope and glory.

SoupIsGood
06-21-2006, 12:50 PM
WE'RE GOING TO WIN IT ALL NEXT SEASON.


Now THAT IS MORE LIKE IT!!!!! :sunshine:

I'm convinced, if the Heat can win it all with the initally suspect team they put together, we sure as heck can too!!!!

:sunshine:


Hop on the :oneal: train!!! (Cause that's what they Pacers will be ridin to the title)


In all seriousness, let's assume for sake of discussion, that the pacers re-sign peja, Granger improves as expected, JO is not traded, Tinsley and Jax are traded and the Pacers somehow acquire a reasonable starting shooting guard and somehow get a decent starting point guard.

There is no reason to suggest the Pacers can't win around 50 games next season and if they did they would be in the hunt for the 4th seed and homecourt advantage.

But is that what we want.

I figure we need to find a solid 8 man rotation.

I think David can be a solid backup big next year. Granger can be our 6th man at both F spots. I'm more open to keeping Peja now, after seeing what Fatoine did this year.

?/Harrison
O'Neal/Granger
Peja/Granger
?/
?

We're lacking half of our 8 man rotation right now. We need a good combo guard off the bench, and then three starters.

Can we get all that? I dunno. But if we get solid vets who play well with JO, we could look pretty good next year.

:sunshine:

Edit - So I guess that's what I view our needs as being this offseaon. Two starting guards, 1 combo guard, and a starting big.

I love AJ, but I don't think he is a good fit with JO.

Tins was a great fit with JO when he was healthy. It's too bad, really.

CableKC
06-21-2006, 12:56 PM
Tim Legler was on ESPN radio and was talking about next season and he said in the east, the Heat, Pistons, Cavs and Pacers will be the best 4 teams.

Doesn't that make your summer. We're back baby

I think that Tim Legler is stuck in the summer of 2005.

Kegboy
06-21-2006, 01:02 PM
Forget it. Nevermind Miami, Detroit, and Cleveland.

For a second, think about my sister's :bulls::
- they played The Champs closer than anybody
- their core is young and improving
- they've got the #2 pick in the draft
- they've got major cap room

Forget 4th in the East, we'll be fighting Milwaukee for 4th in our own division.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 01:10 PM
The "realists" who think that two years of sub-par seasons from giving away any top players we have for players with "potential" would be enough to vault us back to Conference Finals and NBA Finals territory need to put down the grape juice and walk away slowly.

-snip-

for the record, I think that if we give up JO for the #1 that we'll be in the lottery for five-six years. That's not a move I've got in mind.

I want the following players gone/ in significantly reduced roles next season:

SJax
Foster
AJ
Saras
Jones

I'm indifferent on Peja, Croshere and Tinsley (but I agree we need somebody quicker).

I don't want the core of JO-David-Danny messed with. That's all we've got that's worth keeping. Everyone else is available, but not valuable. So let's rebuild around *that* core instead of patch up the current team with a couple of bandaids (which is basically what UncleBuck said about six posts up). But it may take a couple of drafts until the team comes back together. So be it.

Shade
06-21-2006, 01:17 PM
Nobody wants a bad season. Nobody is saying they want the Pacers to be a door mat. If they play rotten and lose badly, then nobody is going to like that.

But if the team seems to have turned a corner, then there probably are a lot of people on this board who would be OK with a 35-win season with a lot of evident upside.

+ Imagine Granger averaging a double-double.
+ Imagine the crowd getting behind every sloppy Rajon Rondo field goal as if it was a Reggie 3-pointer.
+ Imagine Jeff Foster draining a few shots from eight feet away.
+ Imagine Harrison staying on the floor for 35-40 minutes.
+ Imagine Peja leading the NBA in 3s.
+ Imagine the Pacers occasionally outscoring the opponent on fastbreak points.
+ Imagine Stephen Jackson being on the other team.

If all of that happens, we'd damn well better be winning more than 35 games.


Forget it. Nevermind Miami, Detroit, and Cleveland.

For a second, think about my sister's :bulls::
- they played The Champs closer than anybody
- their core is young and improving
- they've got the #2 pick in the draft
- they've got major cap room

Forget 4th in the East, we'll be fighting Milwaukee for 4th in our own division.

I also seem to recall us getting eliminated by a certain Nets team.

Miami
Detroit
Cleveland

Are all clearly better.

New Jersey
Chicago

Are probably better.

That makes us #6 at best.

Putnam
06-21-2006, 01:20 PM
BillS is probably right. A strategy of "tanking" in order to position for a high draft pick, or of shedding talent in order to play the free agents probably wouldn't lead to a championship in two years. Does anybody think it would?

All I want to say is that the entertainment value of a young, energetic team on the upswing would probably be better than the entertainment value of the past season. Remember that Indiana fans booed their own player during pre-game introductions, and that playoff games didn't sell out.






We could tank two seasons in a row by forfeiting every game and we still would not be guaranteed a high enough pick in the draft to make it worth our while.




How do you figure? A record of 0-82 would have to set you pretty well in the draft. The last-ranked team might not get first pick in the lottery, but they'd be in the top 3-4. Two top picks in a row could help the team a lot. But, of course, nobody is advocating anything like losing 164 games in a row.

Hicks
06-21-2006, 02:42 PM
Miami and Sacremento are fighting over it...

-Bball
:lol2: :lmao: :lolchair:

------------------

I'm just about to erupt over all the pessimism on this forum. Why don't you all give up the Pacers if they're doomed to suck so badly for at least 5 years. Good grief. I've bit my tongue a LOT this whole damn year, but I'm reaching a boiling point with this depressive crap.

Arcadian
06-21-2006, 02:49 PM
I can see how a person removed from the emotion of this season would say that a team with JO, Peja and the proven ability of Walsh to keep the team competetive would say that Indiana is in the top 4 of the Eastern conference.

Contender might be a strong prediction though.

tadscout
06-21-2006, 02:55 PM
:lol2: :lmao: :lolchair:

I'm just about to erupt over all the pessimism on this forum. Why don't you all give up the Pacers if they're doomed to suck so badly for at least 5 years. Good grief. I've bit my tongue a LOT this whole damn year, but I'm reaching a boiling point with this depressive crap.

:amen:

That was part of the reason I just had to stop visiting this site for a couple months... it was just getting ridiculous...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

PacerMan
06-21-2006, 03:52 PM
They could be a 50-win team and the fourth best team in a three-team race.

Big deal.

:unimpress

One HELL of a lot better than most of you doom and gloomers are predicting.

Do ANY of you "blow em up" fans have an idea of how devastating throw away seasons would be to this small market franchise?? Is there any business sense here?? Fans would run away EN MASSE and many would not return when we got better. That is a well known factoid in the sports world these days. Businesses spend TEN times more to attract a new customer versus keeping an existing customer. That is universal.
A couple of years of cellar dwelling and this franchise would be on the market.
And out of Indiana.
Take it to the bank.

THAT is why Donnie will never blow it up.

Rightly so.

Trader Joe
06-21-2006, 04:06 PM
Sign me up for 50 wins. Miami only won 52 in the regular season.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 04:27 PM
Sign me up for 50 wins. Miami only won 52 in the regular season.

Wade missed a few games, Shaq and Jason Williams each missed about twenty games. They weren't exactly healthy during the regular season (thus, only 52 wins) but were healthy when it mattered.

Trader Joe
06-21-2006, 04:35 PM
Wade missed a few games, Shaq and Jason Williams each missed about twenty games. They weren't exactly healthy during the regular season (thus, only 52 wins) but were healthy when it mattered.

Injuries are a part of the game. So they were a 52 win this season. They weren't completely healthy now either more than likely. No one ever is. It is just a matter of how you deal with it. Some people sit out deciding game 6s of their team's first round playoff series others play through it.

clemdogg
06-21-2006, 04:35 PM
The problem is that we have to get to a point where the guys actually like playing with each other. A team where some players (Jack and Tins) refuse to pass the ball to other players (Saras) cannot go very far.

French is right. The biggest problem I saw in the playoff series was the fact that they don't like eachother. There is no chemistry. There is no trust. You have to be able to trust your teammates, both offensively and defensively. We make so many stupid fouls and send teams to the line because we don't trust eachother on defense. We don't make any plays because...well, we have no athletic playmakers, and we don't trust eachother to finish the plays.

As far as Legler's comments, I have to believe he is putting his stock in Carlisle's coaching ability, the fact that we should have a healthy a full JO and Peja, and we will probably get something out of Jackson and/or Tinsley.

By the way....just because we are in the top 4 teams in the EC doesn't make us "contenders" by any means.

Fireball Kid
06-21-2006, 04:35 PM
If all of that happens, we'd damn well better be winning more than 35 games.



I also seem to recall us getting eliminated by a certain Nets team.

Miami
Detroit
Cleveland

Are all clearly better.

New Jersey
Chicago

Are probably better.

That makes us #6 at best.

Orlando is gonna be pretty good too.

Putnam
06-21-2006, 04:37 PM
One HELL of a lot better than most of you doom and gloomers are predicting.

Do ANY of you "blow em up" fans have an idea of how devastating throw away seasons would be to this small market franchise?? Is there any business sense here?? Fans would run away EN MASSE and many would not return when we got better. That is a well known factoid in the sports world these days. Businesses spend TEN times more to attract a new customer versus keeping an existing customer. That is universal.
A couple of years of cellar dwelling and this franchise would be on the market.
And out of Indiana.
Take it to the bank.

THAT is why Donnie will never blow it up.

Rightly so.


All of this is disputable. Until you stop throwing out imprecise phrases like "blow 'em up" who can be sure what you mean? There has been one discussion earlier in this thread of losing every game for two seasons in a row, but that is wild hyperbole.

A good discussion depends on saying what you mean -- not a wild overstatement of it.

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 04:39 PM
One HELL of a lot better than most of you doom and gloomers are predicting.

Do ANY of you "blow em up" fans have an idea of how devastating throw away seasons would be to this small market franchise?? Is there any business sense here?? Fans would run away EN MASSE and many would not return when we got better. That is a well known factoid in the sports world these days. Businesses spend TEN times more to attract a new customer versus keeping an existing customer. That is universal.
A couple of years of cellar dwelling and this franchise would be on the market.
And out of Indiana.
Take it to the bank.

THAT is why Donnie will never blow it up.

Rightly so.

This is my point right here. And these same fans that are calling for the team to be rebuilt will be on here complaining about poor play next year. Also, people talk as if rebuilding is a sure bet. The Hawks and Bulls have been trying to do this for years now and have yet to get the job done. How long did it take the Heat? It is really hard to get free agents to come to Indiana and the draft is a crap shoot, so it takes real luck to rebuild. I say keep what you have got that is of value and build around it. Get some luck and the right mix and you never know.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 04:40 PM
Injuries are a part of the game. So they were a 52 win this season. They weren't completely healthy now either more than likely. No one ever is. It is just a matter of how you deal with it. Some people sit out deciding game 6s of their team's first round playoff series others play through it.

True, but out of context. My comment was in reply to a suggestion that if our team was healthy and won fifty games, that it would be just a couple less wins than this year's champion.

But this year's champion wasn't healthy either. If they were healthy (and didn't have a mid-season coaching change), they would've had closer to 60 wins. So we would still be ten wins or so behind them.

And that still gets a big fat, "So what?" from me.

FrenchConnection
06-21-2006, 04:42 PM
All of this is disputable. Until you stop throwing out imprecise phrases like "blow 'em up" who can be sure what you mean? There has been one discussion earlier in this thread of losing every game for two seasons in a row, but that is wild hyperbole.

A good discussion depends on saying what you mean -- not a wild overstatement of it.

"blow 'em up" would entail trading JO along with Tins and Jack, trying to clear cap space and looking to get a high draft pick in 2007 and 2008. Retooling would involve trading Jack and/or Tins with other pieces to get a better backcourt. I prefer the latter to the former.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 04:44 PM
This is my point right here. And these same fans that are calling for the team to be rebuilt will be on here complaining about poor play next year. Also, people talk as if rebuilding is a sure bet. The Hawks and Bulls have been trying to do this for years now and have yet to get the job done. How long did it take the Heat? It is really hard to get free agents to come to Indiana and the draft is a crap shoot, so it takes real luck to rebuild. I say keep what you have got that is of value and build around it. Get some luck and the right mix and you never know.

I swear that's what I've been trying to say for several weeks, but I keep getting quoted as some pessimistic blow-up-the-team/ trade-JO lunatic.

Hey, I'm much less pessimistic this summer than the past three or four. Ron is gone. :woot2: Now they can start building the team with a real, sturdy foundation. And IMO, that includes JO, Granger and Harrison. Problem is, the rebuilding really starts now (since they decided not to start the process in February.)

Putnam
06-21-2006, 04:49 PM
"blow 'em up" would entail trading JO along with Tins and Jack, trying to clear cap space and looking to get a high draft pick in 2007 and 2008. Retooling would involve trading Jack and/or Tins with other pieces to get a better backcourt. I prefer the latter to the former.

This is more like it. Agreed. Let's re-tool by trading away Jackson and Tinsley plus whatever it takes to move them (except JO and Granger), and solidify the backcourt.

And if the re-tooled team is younger, faster, more aggressive, less thuggish, more harmonious and nearer to the salary cap, that will be OK, too.

clemdogg
06-21-2006, 05:01 PM
I am not at all against trading JO, unless its for unproven players. JO is a great player. But ultimately, unless we get Ben Wallace, I don't see us winning a championship on his shoulders. He just isn't tough enough for me. He is all talk. When he isn't scoring, he isn't a factor. And that isn't to say he is only a scorer, obviously hes a great shotblocker and rebounder when he wants to be. But when he doesn't hit his first couple of shots, or the calls don't go his way, he is taken out of the game. Period. If we can trade JO packaged with whoever, except Granger, and we get a proving guy to build around in return and not an experiment, then I think it'd work.

I'm not saying we necessarily should...it would depend on who we are sending and who we are getting. But I'm not sold on us winning rings on JO's shoulders.

Suaveness
06-21-2006, 05:10 PM
We suck.

PacerMan
06-21-2006, 05:24 PM
All of this is disputable. Until you stop throwing out imprecise phrases like "blow 'em up" who can be sure what you mean? There has been one discussion earlier in this thread of losing every game for two seasons in a row, but that is wild hyperbole.

A good discussion depends on saying what you mean -- not a wild overstatement of it.

MY phrases like "blow em up"???????!!!!!!!!

I suggest you read a few earlier posts.

And 2 seasons would be PLENTY to lose this fan base.

Take that wild overstatement how ever you wish.......


I swear that's what I've been trying to say for several weeks, but I keep getting quoted as some pessimistic blow-up-the-team/ trade-JO lunatic.

Hey, I'm much less pessimistic this summer than the past three or four. Ron is gone. :woot2: Now they can start building the team with a real, sturdy foundation. And IMO, that includes JO, Granger and Harrison. Problem is, the rebuilding really starts now (since they decided not to start the process in February.)

Sorry dude, was just responding to your one post without considering what you've been posting. The doom/gloomers make it hard to see through the haze. :)

SoupIsGood
06-21-2006, 05:32 PM
We suck.

We rock.

ChicagoJ
06-21-2006, 06:19 PM
MY phrases like "blow em up"???????!!!!!!!!

I suggest you read a few earlier posts.

And 2 seasons would be PLENTY to lose this fan base.

Take that wild overstatement how ever you wish.......



Sorry dude, was just responding to your one post without considering what you've been posting. The doom/gloomers make it hard to see through the haze. :)

No problem-o.

BillS
06-22-2006, 08:40 AM
for the record, I think that if we give up JO for the #1 that we'll be in the lottery for five-six years. That's not a move I've got in mind.

I want the following players gone/ in significantly reduced roles next season:

SJax
Foster
AJ
Saras
Jones

I'm indifferent on Peja, Croshere and Tinsley (but I agree we need somebody quicker).


I'd swap Tinsley with AJ, I'm willing to see what Saras brings with a year of NBA experience, and Foster depends on whether or not we get a decently rebounding 5 in return for one of the other trades.

However, because either your scenario or mine is unlikely to net us a gosh-golly-wow-commercial-making-STAR it will still be perceived by some as "only tinkering".


How do you figure? A record of 0-82 would have to set you pretty well in the draft. The last-ranked team might not get first pick in the lottery, but they'd be in the top 3-4. Two top picks in a row could help the team a lot. But, of course, nobody is advocating anything like losing 164 games in a row.

Because a number 3 pick isn't a guarantee of anything anymore. There are so few players coming out that are ready to step on the floor and contribute that I'd only see a number 1 pick as success, and that is even more of a crap shoot than I'd like to take most years. For every LeBron James there's a Kwame Brown.

D-BONE
06-22-2006, 08:48 AM
I am not at all against trading JO, unless its for unproven players. JO is a great player. But ultimately, unless we get Ben Wallace, I don't see us winning a championship on his shoulders. He just isn't tough enough for me. He is all talk. When he isn't scoring, he isn't a factor. And that isn't to say he is only a scorer, obviously hes a great shotblocker and rebounder when he wants to be. But when he doesn't hit his first couple of shots, or the calls don't go his way, he is taken out of the game. Period. If we can trade JO packaged with whoever, except Granger, and we get a proving guy to build around in return and not an experiment, then I think it'd work.

I'm not saying we necessarily should...it would depend on who we are sending and who we are getting. But I'm not sold on us winning rings on JO's shoulders.

Agree wholeheartedly with this post. Especially the JO talk part. Perhaps not ALL talk (but more than I'd prefer), but definitely not enough action.

Since I don't find it likely to consumate anything for a proven foundation type player that you describe, I hope JO will demonstrate more action next season and change my perception.

And NO. I do not think this year's #1 and CV fit the proven player bill.

Black Sox
06-22-2006, 09:16 AM
Can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic?

I'd rather have a re-vamped team spend a season or two at 0.500 with a chance of getting back to the Elite than bringing this team back to win 50 games and get upset by the #5 seed in the first round.


You don't have to have the best record or be considered the best team to win a championship. Just look at Miami.

The Pacers will be fine next year.

FlavaDave
06-22-2006, 09:41 AM
I would be happy with a team of AJ/Jones/Granger/JO/Harrison, assuming that we get one or two promising young players in return for the trio of Peja, Tinsley and Jackson.

FrenchConnection
06-22-2006, 10:06 AM
I would be happy with a team of AJ/Jones/Granger/JO/Harrison, assuming that we get one or two promising young players in return for the trio of Peja, Tinsley and Jackson.

Unless Granger makes a huge leap, that team wins 40 games tops even if they stay healthy all year. They lack outside shooting and the backcourt is really undersized. But those are all good guys, if 35 wins and the lottery makes you happy, then this would be your feel-good team. I personally want Peja at the 3 . The reason that I like having Peja there is that it allows the team to go out and get a SG that does not have a really good outside shot but can get to the basket because your three point shooting comes from the SF spot. And I really don't like AJ as a starting PG. Keeping fred to start at the 2 would be better if we got a PG with some size.

FlavaDave
06-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Unless Granger makes a huge leap, that team wins 40 games tops even if they stay healthy all year. They lack outside shooting and the backcourt is really undersized. But those are all good guys, if 35 wins and the lottery makes you happy, then this would be your feel-good team. I personally want Peja at the 3 . The reason that I like having Peja there is that it allows the team to go out and get a SG that does not have a really good outside shot but can get to the basket because your three point shooting comes from the SF spot. And I really don't like AJ as a starting PG. Keeping fred to start at the 2 would be better if we got a PG with some size.

I understand. I disagree that 40 wins would be the ceiling; but anyway, my thought is this:

Few if any people think that a team of Peja/JO/Foster/Jackson/Tinsley would win a title in the next 3-4 years, after which the team would break up due to age. So I would rather develop the young guys, stay competitive, and build for the future. Not blow the team up, just cut off the fat. Basically, I think holding on to Peja, Jackson, Tinsley, Croshire, Foster, and Pollard for the next three years is pointless.

I think the lineup I mentioned would make the playoffs. Even if we were a 6-8 seed for a few years, I think Indy would be satisfied with the knowledge that this team was going somewhere.

D-BONE
06-22-2006, 06:50 PM
I would be happy with a team of AJ/Jones/Granger/JO/Harrison, assuming that we get one or two promising young players in return for the trio of Peja, Tinsley and Jackson.

FlavaDave, I'm not sure this team would make the playoffs but I could live with the frontline. Upgrade the backcourt with a good athletic player at at least one of the two G positions (probably SG) then I think playoffs is more realistic. Hopefully, the promising youngsters could at least provide depth.

FlavaDave
06-23-2006, 08:33 AM
FlavaDave, I'm not sure this team would make the playoffs but I could live with the frontline. Upgrade the backcourt with a good athletic player at at least one of the two G positions (probably SG) then I think playoffs is more realistic. Hopefully, the promising youngsters could at least provide depth.

Yeah, "my plan" would hinge on trading the veterans I mentioned for guards and focusing on the backcourt in the next 2-3 drafts.

I do have a prediction, though: Larry trades a group of those veterans for Jamaal Magloire. If that happens, and Lorbek pans out (a decently big if), then we are good to go up front.

D-BONE
06-23-2006, 09:12 AM
Yeah, "my plan" would hinge on trading the veterans I mentioned for guards and focusing on the backcourt in the next 2-3 drafts.

I do have a prediction, though: Larry trades a group of those veterans for Jamaal Magloire. If that happens, and Lorbek pans out (a decently big if), then we are good to go up front.

Not to say anyone can predict the draft with exact precision, but Draftexpress would appear to agree with your approach. They've got us taking athletic PGs in both rounds-Rondo and Will Blalock next week.

Rondo's availability at 17 has been brought into question however. It this scenario actually played out, you also wonder how many PGs we really want to carry and/or who won't be around. AJ could tutor a young PG or two and also log some minutes at the 2. Saras? JT shipped out I'm assuming. Should be interesting.

RON ARTEST
06-24-2006, 04:36 AM
in the east yes in the west no. they are a very good team though, especially with a few roster changes. i think trading peja would be a good idea if they got the right deal.

Lord Helmet
06-24-2006, 04:41 AM
We suck.
Last year? Yes. This coming year? Who the hell knows.

RON ARTEST
06-24-2006, 04:52 AM
Last year? Yes. This coming year? Who the hell knows.yeah its too hard too predict the nba. it all depends on the moves the pacers make and the moves that other teams make. and even then it would be stupid to predict whats gonna happen.

PacerMan
06-24-2006, 11:00 AM
We sucked because of internal problems. The talent is ok to be good with good effort given and smart play. Many seem to forget the stretches of very good play last year, like before Jermaine came back and Cro and others were injured, the whole bench was playing and playing with great effort and teamwork. Everyone was raving about the ball sharing and instensity. That was THIS LAST season.
Move whoever the problem child is(are), tell/demand Rick cracks the whip or he's gone, draft some speed or shooting for the guard spot, resign Peja so we have a legit #2 option and we'll be fine.
David or Danny takes a step forward next year and we'll be in the hunt. Tinsley stays here and stays healthy OR Danny AND Hulk both take steps forward and we'll be very tough.

Robertmto
06-24-2006, 04:30 PM
yeah its too hard too predict the nba. it all depends on the moves the pacers make and the moves that other teams make. and even then it would be stupid to predict whats gonna happen.

I honestly dont expect any big moves. Or that many little ones. Max of 1.

Kingsfanbmiller
06-24-2006, 05:48 PM
IMO the Pacers need to get rid(S&T and trade) of Peja, Jacko, and Tinsley if they want to contend. I like the Pacers' frontcourt. Tinsley is always injured and Peja gets injured a lot too. Neither of them were able to play much in the playoffs. I think Granger can be the starting 3 and you will be fine as long as you upgrade at the 1 and 2. Granger has a lot of talent and a lot of heart, he's a good defender and he's going to be getting better this offseason. Peja is talented but I don't think he is a very good fit for this team because you already have Granger and the only thing he does well is bomb 3s because he's good moving without the ball. I'm not really sure who's on the market but if the Pacers could grab a 2nd star player and put them next to JO, that would be great.