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View Full Version : Jonathan Bender - The Saga Is Officially Over



sweabs
06-14-2006, 07:00 PM
f

Shade
06-14-2006, 07:02 PM
Does this mean his salary comes off the books?

sweabs
06-14-2006, 07:04 PM
f

blanket
06-14-2006, 07:12 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story/?ID=168766&hubname=nba

Pacers waive Jonathan Bender
Sports Ticker
6/14/2006 4:38:53 PM

INDIANAPOLIS (Ticker) -- The Indiana Pacers waived oft-injured forward Jonathan Bender on Wednesday.

Bender announced his retirement in February due to a medical condition in his knees. He played a total of just nine games for the Pacers over the last two seasons.

The 7-0 Bender has always possessed seemingly limitless potential but has been plagued by injuries throughout his career. He played just two games in 2005-06 before being sidelined by a sore left knee.

The fifth overall draft selection in 1999, Bender was dealt to Indiana by the Toronto Raptors on August 8, 1999. He averaged 5.6 points and 2.2 rebounds in parts of seven seasons with the Pacers.

Bender, who was drafted straight out of high school, showed flashes of brilliance with the Pacers but never blossomed into the player the organization hoped he would be. His best season came in 2001-02 when he played in 78 games and averaged 7.4 points and 3.1 rebounds.

317Kim
06-14-2006, 07:24 PM
Yet, another article.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bender_waived_060614.html

Bender Officially Waived
Pacers News Release

Indianapolis, June 14 - The Indiana Pacers announced Wednesday they have waived guard/forward Jonathan Bender. On Feb. 4, 2006, Bender announced that due to a medical condition in his knees, he would no longer be able to continue playing basketball.

Bender played six seasons with the Pacers, but was plagued by injuries. His best season was 2001-02 when he played 78 games, averaging 7.4 points and 3.1 rebounds per game. He played just two games in the 2005-06 season before chronic soreness in his left knee sidelined him. Bender was the Toronto Raptors’ first-round draft pick (fifth overall) in the 1999 NBA draft. The Pacers acquired him Aug. 8, 1999, from the Raptors in exchange for Antonio Davis.

Frank Slade
06-14-2006, 07:28 PM
So does this have any effect on our Salary Cap, aren't the Pacers still waiting to hear in regards to the requested medical exemption?

Bball
06-14-2006, 07:29 PM
How do you 'waive' a 'retired' player? Did Bender ever officially 'retire'?

-Bball

Hicks
06-14-2006, 07:39 PM
Assuming for the moment we get some kind of medical salary benefit from this (and I hate that because I wanted to see Jonathan succeed; I'm sorry his career ended this way), would this allow us to make a relatively big free agent signing if we chose to do so?

purdue101
06-14-2006, 07:44 PM
unfortunately we are still over the cap, so no, we can't go out and sign a big name FA. we're stuck with the MLE or a S&T.

Unclebuck
06-14-2006, 07:46 PM
Bender never retired.

Frank Slade
06-14-2006, 07:48 PM
Yes I think we will still be over.. Here is an article about our Cap situation from Draft.Net assuming it's correct..

State of the Cap: Indiana Pacers

By Josh Redetzke
redball77@yahoo.com
5/3/06


2006/07 Indiana Pacers Payroll: $61.1 million
2006/07 Estimated NBA Salary Cap: $52 million
Roughly: $9.1 million over cap

The Good: Indiana's cap situation starts to improve this off-season. Scot Pollard and Reggie Miller come off the books, saving the team $12.3 million. And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts. Croshere and Bender have been sore spots for a long time and Indiana will not be sad to see them go. Better yet, both of their contracts will be valuable trade assets heading into next season.

The Bad: Not even their superstar, Jermaine O'Neal, is immune from entering the "Bad" section. There is no doubt that O'Neal is an incredible talent and a team leader. He led the Pacers in points (20.1), rebounds (9.3), and blocks (2.3). Plus, were it not for O'Neal calling out his teammates in public to play better, Indiana might not have made the playoffs at all.

However, Jermaine's contract is massive. He will earn an average of $20.5 million dollars for the next 4 years. He also hasn't played in more than 51 games in any of the past two seasons. Indiana needs their leader to be on the court. They also don't need him to simply be good, he must be great, especially with the money they are paying him (one of the top ten salaries in the league). We all know O'Neal has the ability to earn his contract, but he must stay healthy and elevate his game a little more.

Jamaal Tinsley still has 5 long years left on his contract for roughly $6.7 million per season. First of all, Jamaal has a lot of trouble just staying on the court. The often-injured point guard hasn't played in more than 52 games in any of the past three seasons. Secondly, Anthony Johnson, a player who makes half as much money as Jamaal, is outplaying him this year. Last I looked, Johnson wasn't playing very well either. The Pacers are probably stuck with Tinsley for a long time.

Jeff Foster will make about $17 million dollars the next three years. He is a rebounding fool, grabbing 9.1 a game in just 25 minutes of play. Foster has also had his own health issues the past two years and he provides absolutely nothing on offense and rarely blocks a shot. His pay isn't outlandish, but it's a bit steep for such a one-dimensional player...cont'd


NBADRAFT.NET (http://www.nbadraft.net/2006stateofthecapindiana001.asp)

travmil
06-14-2006, 07:49 PM
Thank the maker, that I will never have to hear the phrase "flashes of brilliance" ever again.

purdue101
06-14-2006, 07:49 PM
we may qualify for a "medical exemption" which grants a team couple million to sign a player w/o having to pay a tax (assuming you're over the cap).

this doesn't mean we have 8 million (JB's 06 salary) to go out and sign somebody.

Kegboy
06-14-2006, 07:53 PM
How do you 'waive' a 'retired' player? Did Bender ever officially 'retire'?

-Bball

We waived Reggie after he retired.

travmil
06-14-2006, 08:04 PM
We waived Reggie after he retired.

But that was a one time exception, and if TPTB had known then what they know now, they would have almost certainly used it on Bender.

Bball
06-14-2006, 08:06 PM
We waived Reggie after he retired.

Technically, Reggie didn't retire 'officially' IIRC.

-BBall

PacerMan
06-14-2006, 08:17 PM
Thank the maker, that I will never have to hear the phrase "flashes of brilliance" ever again.

Danny Granger has shown flashes of brilliance.

:)

indytoad
06-14-2006, 08:22 PM
But that was a one time exception, and if TPTB had known then what they know now, they would have almost certainly used it on Bender.

The sad part is, at that point in time, they were the only ones that didn't seem to know.

Ah well, at least it's all in the past now.

IndyToad
Unless, of course, his DNA is reconstituted into an ostrich

OTD
06-14-2006, 08:39 PM
Ch 6 at 6:20 said something to that affect. I did not catch all of it but think he is consider retired

Bball
06-14-2006, 08:40 PM
OK.... so back to the subject at hand.

This 'so called' medical exception (or exemption)- Who's call is it? Can we waive a player and get this cap relief? Why didn't Bender officially retire?

Able has led us to believe he had this all figured out but I don't remember us needing to 'waive' Bender in any of his scenarios.

If we had to 'waive' Bender I'm wondering if that means he didn't agree with our hopes of him going along with our cap relief plans. Or maybe the NBA didn't go along with them.

In any case... It's more confusing to me now than before. Is waiving him just a step in the process... or does it mean the process hit a snag?

-Bball

bulldog
06-14-2006, 08:52 PM
Why did we waive him? Couldn't we have used the expiring contract in a trade?

In the interest of reading too much between the lines...

Couldn't we have traded, let's say Sarunas, Granger, and draft picks + Bender's contract for Pierce, for example (don't argue about this particular trade, you get the point I'm making)? To me, this seems like we are absolutely sure we don't want to take on any more salary, which hints at rebuilding.

edit:
Too bad we don't have Cuban as an owner For example, if money/luxury cap weren't an issue, wouldn't you have taken this:

Indiana Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
5.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.2 apg in 15.4 minutes

Sarunas Jasikevicius
6-4 SG from Maryland
7.3 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.0 apg in 20.8 minutes

Jonathan Bender
7-0 SF from Picayune Memorial (HS)
5.0 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.0 apg in 10.5 minutes

Austin Croshere
6-10 PF from Providence
8.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 1.2 apg in 22.9 minutes
Incoming

Paul Pierce
6-6 SG from Kansas
26.8 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 4.8 apg in 39.0 minutes

Raef LaFrentz
6-11 C from Kansas
7.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.4 apg in 24.7 minutes
Change in team outlook: +8.3 ppg, -1.4 rpg, and +0.8 apg.


Successful Scenario
Due to Boston and Indiana being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Boston and Indiana had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Trade ID
Every trade made by fans is allocated a unique Trade ID which you can share with friends and fellow basketball fans to allow them to see your trade scenario. The Trade ID for this scenario is 3155463.

Frank Slade
06-14-2006, 08:58 PM
OK.... so back to the subject at hand.

This 'so called' medical exception (or exemption)- Who's call is it? Can we waive a player and get this cap relief? Why didn't Bender officially retire?

Able has led us to believe he had this all figured out but I don't remember us needing to 'waive' Bender in any of his scenarios.

If we had to 'waive' Bender I'm wondering if that means he didn't agree with our hopes of him going along with our cap relief plans. Or maybe the NBA didn't go along with them.

In any case... It's more confusing to me now than before. Is waiving him just a step in the process... or does it mean the process hit a snag?

-Bball

That's where I am at as well. I emailed Bruno perhaps he can enlighten us.:confused:

indytoad
06-14-2006, 09:00 PM
Why did we waive him? Couldn't we have used the expiring contract in a trade?

In the interest of reading too much between the lines...

Couldn't we have traded, let's say Sarunas, Granger, and draft picks + Bender's contract for Pierce, for example (don't argue about this particular trade, you get the point I'm making)? To me, this seems like we are absolutely sure we don't want to take on any more salary, which hints at rebuilding.

I was thinking the same thing. They may just be trying to get out of the luxury tax - we may see an expiring contract trade next season (I'm thinking Croshere), once a few of the other biggies have expired. Or it's just as likely they won't, I mean, when have we ever made such a trade?

IndyToad
Wearing and wielding a duster

travmil
06-14-2006, 09:04 PM
I don't know why the Pacers won't rebuild. Both teams in the Finals right now have hit rock bottom, and then rebuilt, during the decade or so that the Pacers have supposedly been contenders.

Young
06-14-2006, 09:07 PM
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#53

53. How do retired players count against the cap?

Any money paid to a player is included in team salary, even if the player has retired. For example, James Worthy retired in 1994, two years before his contract ended. He continued to receive his salary for the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons, so his salary was included in the Lakers' team salary in those seasons. It is at the team's discretion (or as the result of an agreement between the team and player) whether to continue to pay the player after he has retired.

There is one exception whereby a player can continue to receive his salary, but the salary is not included in the team's team salary. This is when a player is forced to retire for medical reasons and a league-appointed physician confirms that he is medically unfit to continue playing. There is a waiting period of one year following the injury or illness before a team can apply for this salary cap relief. If the waiting period expires mid-season (on any date prior to the last day of the regular season), then the player's entire salary for that season is removed from the team's team salary. For example, in March 2003 the Knicks were allowed to remove Luc Longley's entire 2002-03 salary from their books (and since the luxury tax is based on the team salary as of the last day of the regular season, the Knicks avoided paying any tax on Longley's salary). This provision can also be used when a player dies while under contract.

Teams are not allowed to trade for disabled players and then apply for this salary cap relief. Only the team for which the player was playing when he was disabled may request this relief.

If a player retires, even for medical reasons, his team does not receive a salary cap exception to acquire a replacement player.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
55. Do released players count against the cap? What is set-off?

Released (waived) players with guaranteed contracts continue to be included in team salary. Players whose contracts are not guaranteed are included in team salary in the amount they made while they were with the team. Players on non-guaranteed "summer contracts" are not included in team salary unless they make the regular season roster.

The team and player may negotiate a revised payment schedule to be utilized in the event the player is waived. This revised payment schedule may call for the guaranteed portion of the player's contract to be paid over a longer or shorter period of time than originally specified in the contract, or even as a lump sum. This is often referred to as a "spread provision." Also see question numbers 59 and 60. Even if the payment schedule is altered, the team's team salary is charged for the same number of seasons as specified in the original contract.


If another team signs a released player who had a guaranteed contract (as long as the player has cleared waivers -- see question number 54), the player's original team is allowed to reduce the amount of money they still owe the player (and lower their team salary) by a commensurate amount (this is called the right of set-off). This is true if the player signs with any professional team -- it doesn't even have to be an NBA team. The amount the original team gets to set off is limited to one-half the difference between the player's new salary and the minimum salary for a one-year veteran (if the player is a rookie, then the rookie minimum is used instead).


For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived during the 2005 offseason, with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another NBA team for the 2005-06 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $641,748 (the minimum for a one-year veteran in 2005-06), divided by two, or $179,126. If this player had a $5 million salary with his prior team, then his prior team would be responsible for the remaining $4,820,874. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,820,874, which was more than he made prior to being waived.


There was some controversy about what happens to player options if the player is released before the option can be exercised. See question number 50 for details.

Hopefully this will give you guys your answers.

Bball
06-14-2006, 09:14 PM
Hopefully this will give you guys your answers.

Yes... I believe it says we should've waived Bender instead of Reggie last season because we are not getting Bender off the cap.

But maybe I read it wrong.

If we 'waived' Bender this week it sounds like he didn't 'retire' for medical reasons.

-Bball

indygeezer
06-14-2006, 09:26 PM
So then about all I see it does is free up a roster spot.

If he wsan't retired or waived then he must have still been on the roster.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 10:06 PM
I am uber confused here!

bulldog
06-14-2006, 10:37 PM
Hmmm...maybe clearing roster space for a trade? How many guys do we have, and how many are allowed?

Let's see, if we trade JO, we're getting a few guys back, probably...

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 10:39 PM
yes it all comes together!!! :-o

Young
06-14-2006, 10:42 PM
Hmmm...maybe clearing roster space for a trade? How many guys do we have, and how many are allowed?

Let's see, if we trade JO, we're getting a few guys back, probably...

I think we can have 15 guys under contract.

We have these guys under contract for next year:
- O'Neal
- Jackson
- Tinsley
- Granger
- Foster
- Harrison
- Croshere
- Johnson
- Saras

Free Agents:
- Peja
- Freddie
- Eddie
- Pollard

Bball
06-14-2006, 10:42 PM
I wouldn't think you'd have to make space right now.

-Bball

Anthem
06-14-2006, 10:45 PM
I think we're confusing two different things.


53. How do retired players count against the cap?

Any money paid to a player is included in team salary, even if the player has retired. For example, James Worthy retired in 1994, two years before his contract ended. He continued to receive his salary for the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons, so his salary was included in the Lakers' team salary in those seasons. It is at the team's discretion (or as the result of an agreement between the team and player) whether to continue to pay the player after he has retired.

There is one exception whereby a player can continue to receive his salary, but the salary is not included in the team's team salary. This is when a player is forced to retire for medical reasons and a league-appointed physician confirms that he is medically unfit to continue playing. There is a waiting period of one year following the injury or illness before a team can apply for this salary cap relief. If the waiting period expires mid-season (on any date prior to the last day of the regular season), then the player's entire salary for that season is removed from the team's team salary. For example, in March 2003 the Knicks were allowed to remove Luc Longley's entire 2002-03 salary from their books (and since the luxury tax is based on the team salary as of the last day of the regular season, the Knicks avoided paying any tax on Longley's salary). This provision can also be used when a player dies while under contract.

Teams are not allowed to trade for disabled players and then apply for this salary cap relief. Only the team for which the player was playing when he was disabled may request this relief.

If a player retires, even for medical reasons, his team does not receive a salary cap exception to acquire a replacement player.




DISABLED PLAYER EXCEPTION -- This exception allows a team which is over the cap to acquire a replacement for a disabled player who will be out for the remainder of that season (if the player is disabled between July 1 and November 30) or the following season (if the player is disabled after November 30). This exception can also be granted in the event of a player's death. This exception can only be used to acquire one player. The maximum salary for the replacement player is 50% of the injured player's salary, or the average salary, whichever is less (see question number 24 for the definition of "average salary"). Approval from the league (based on a determination by an NBA-designated physician) is required for this exception to be used. This exception can be used to sign a free agent, or to create room to accept a salary in trade. When used for trade, the team may acquire a player whose salary (including any trade bonus) is up to 100% of this exception plus $100,000 (not 125%). Also see question number 20 for more information on the availability and use of this exception.

If a player is disabled between July 1 and November 30, the team must acquire the replacement player within 45 days. If the player is disabled between December 1 and June 30, then the team has until October 1 to sign a replacement. If the disabled player comes back sooner than expected, then he may be activated immediately, and the replacement player is not affected. However, if the disabled player comes back before the exception is used, then the exception is lost.

Teams sometimes have had difficulty getting the NBA to approve an injury exception. For example, Danny Manning tore an ACL toward the end of the 1997-98 season, yet the NBA did not approve the Suns for this exception. More recently, the Magic did not receive this exception in 2003 for Grant Hill. However, this exception was granted in the 1999 offseason to San Antonio, so they could replace Sean Elliott, who was disabled due to kidney problems. This exception was also granted to Charlotte soon after Bobby Phills was killed.

Don't confuse this exception with the salary cap relief teams can apply for a year after losing a player to a career-ending injury or death (see question number 53). This exception allows a team to acquire a replacement player. The salary cap relief removes a contract from the books.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 10:48 PM
I think we can have 15 guys under contract.

We have these guys under contract for next year:
- O'Neal
- Jackson
- Tinsley
- Granger
- Foster
- Harrison
- Croshere
- Johnson
- Saras

Free Agents:
- Peja
- Freddie
- Eddie
- Pollard

Is my math wrong?

Anthem
06-14-2006, 11:04 PM
Is my math wrong?
Nope, just your reading comprehension. :flirt:

It doesn't say we have 15 guys under contract, it says we CAN have them. Or did I miss your point?

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:13 PM
Yeah, we have PLENTY of room on the roster for new players. Only 9 under contract, with only one or two likely to be re-signed.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 11:18 PM
Nope, just your reading comprehension. :flirt:

It doesn't say we have 15 guys under contract, it says we CAN have them. Or did I miss your point?

No you were right. But thats odd I scored a perfect 36/36 on my ACT is reading comprehension.

My reading Comprehension score = Greg Oden


all hype

:laugh:

Anthem
06-14-2006, 11:25 PM
No you were right. But thats odd I scored a perfect 36/36 on my ACT is reading comprehension.
But did you skip a grade because of it?

PacerFan31
06-14-2006, 11:26 PM
RTV6 just reported the Pacers will get salary cap releif from the move.

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:28 PM
RTV6 just reported the Pacers will get salary cap releif from the move.

Excellent news if accurate.

bulldog
06-14-2006, 11:34 PM
RTV6 just reported the Pacers will get salary cap releif from the move.

Unfortunately, we will still come out in the red as we were forced to hire seven top of the line accountants to read the NBA's CBA and figure out wtf happens when you waive an injured player.

Frank Slade
06-15-2006, 10:12 AM
Pacers insurance policy will cover the $7.7 million he is due next season.
:rock:
Bender's salary no longer will count against the Pacers' salary cap or luxury tax.

INDYSTAR (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060615/SPORTS04/606150425)

317Kim
06-15-2006, 10:20 AM
:woot2: Wow, a lot of great news this morning.

I'll be saving those JB wallpapers now before they take them off.

Gyron
06-15-2006, 10:24 AM
So what does that do to our luxury tax/salary cap situation?

That was a pretty big nut on that one wasn't it?

What else drops off this year?

Frank Slade
06-15-2006, 10:28 AM
I think we may still be a few million over the proposed cap for next year..?

Well, I see Bruno posted my question as the QOD on Pacers.Com :cool:

How Does Bender’s Release Affect Cap?

Thursday, June 15, 2006

Q. As Bender has now officially been waived, is this because the Pacers were not able to get a medical exemption for his salary? Also, will he still count again this year's salary cap?

(From Andrew in Avon, Ind.)
:rolleyes:


A. The waiving of Bender brought closure to his career with the Pacers. Shortly after he announced in February that he would be unable to continue his career due to the medical condition of his oft-injured knees, the Pacers applied for salary-cap relief from the league. Though the remainder of Bender's contract was paid by an insurance policy, the team hoped to clear his salary from the books for both 2005-06 and 2006-07, the final two years of his deal.

After studying the medical reports, the NBA did grant that relief to the Pacers, which reportedly removed nearly $8 million from the 2006-07 cap number.

Bender's release means the Pacers currently have nine players under contract for 2006-07.

That does not include free agents Peja Stojakovic, Scot Pollard and Eddie Gill, or potential free agent Fred Jones. The Pacers must make Jones a qualifying offer by June 30 to retain the right of first refusal.

Pacers.Com (http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question.html)

Outsider
06-15-2006, 12:38 PM
Am I reading that CBA section correctly? We have two seperate issues here with Bender's Injury assuming he never really filed for Retirement.

1. Bender's salary comes off of the books for both the salary cap and luxury tax for the 06-07 season (his last on his contract). Though we are still over the salary cap with the 9 players under contract we are much lower than the luxury tax threshhold.

2. Since his injury occured after Nov 30th the Pacers recieve an exception for 50% his pay (~4M) to use by October 1st. This is in addition to the high and midlevel exceptions they already have.

Am I correct?

Outsider

blanket
06-15-2006, 01:02 PM
...the Pacers applied for salary-cap relief from the league. Though the remainder of Bender's contract was paid by an insurance policy, the team hoped to clear his salary from the books for both 2005-06 and 2006-07, the final two years of his deal.

After studying the medical reports, the NBA did grant that relief to the Pacers, which reportedly removed nearly $8 million from the 2006-07 cap number.

It sounds like we got payroll relief for both this season and next (2005/06, and 2006/07). So I guess we won't have to pay the LT this summer, plus we should be able to use our full MLE this summer if there's a FA or two worth using it on.

Based on the numbers at hoopshype, I think this places our current payroll at around 50M. Of course, we'll have to add in salaries for our draft pick(s), plus any FAs we sign, including our own (like Peja or Fred).

indygeezer
06-15-2006, 08:34 PM
One thing this tells me....

The NBA accepted Bender's injuries as legit....
The insurance companies accpeted Bender's injuries as legit...

ergo....

Jonathan wasn't dogging it and we all owe him an apology.

Frank Slade
06-15-2006, 09:02 PM
It sounds like we got payroll relief for both this season and next (2005/06, and 2006/07). So I guess we won't have to pay the LT this summer, plus we should be able to use our full MLE this summer if there's a FA or two worth using it on.

Based on the numbers at hoopshype, I think this places our current payroll at around 50M. Of course, we'll have to add in salaries for our draft pick(s), plus any FAs we sign, including our own (like Peja or Fred).

Yes I think as of know we are at or around 52.9 Million..
Whereas the projected Cap I think is around 52 million.

Hicks
06-15-2006, 09:19 PM
One thing this tells me....

The NBA accepted Bender's injuries as legit....
The insurance companies accpeted Bender's injuries as legit...

ergo....

Jonathan wasn't dogging it and we all owe him an apology.

:ding:

Bball
06-15-2006, 10:20 PM
One thing this tells me....

The NBA accepted Bender's injuries as legit....
The insurance companies accpeted Bender's injuries as legit...

ergo....

Jonathan wasn't dogging it and we all owe him an apology.


Medical science hasn't created a pain meter. I'll save the apology to Bender, my problem was with TPTB making a bad situation worse by not cutting ties sooner, extending him with a stupid contract, not trading him when we had a chance(s), etc..

He should be very thankful he was taken by the Pacers. No other team would've given him the opportunities or money the Pacers did.

That his knees hurt too bad for him to play is a sad situation but Bender was going to be a bust injury or not. The only question was how big of a bust.




-Bball

bulletproof
06-15-2006, 10:36 PM
Medical science hasn't created a pain meter. I'll save the apology to Bender, my problem was with TPTB making a bad situation worse by not cutting ties sooner, extending him with a stupid contract, not trading him when we had a chance(s), etc..

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD302/OS40024.JPG



He should be very thankful he was taken by the Pacers. No other team would've given him the opportunities or money the Pacers did.

You must have some amazing extra sensory powers.

Anthem
06-15-2006, 11:01 PM
Am I reading that CBA section correctly? We have two seperate issues here with Bender's Injury assuming he never really filed for Retirement.

1. Bender's salary comes off of the books for both the salary cap and luxury tax for the 06-07 season (his last on his contract). Though we are still over the salary cap with the 9 players under contract we are much lower than the luxury tax threshhold.

2. Since his injury occured after Nov 30th the Pacers recieve an exception for 50% his pay (~4M) to use by October 1st. This is in addition to the high and midlevel exceptions they already have.

Am I correct?

Outsider
Yup, that's my understanding.

Kaufman
06-15-2006, 11:27 PM
If Bender would have filed for retirement, then he might not have been able to claim the insurance of his contract, in other words, he'd not have had a pay day.

As far as Bball's comment about the pain scale - well to each person there is a different threshold of pain and Bender's was whatever it was. We can't climb inside his body and compare it to the pain we would be able to tolerate ourselves. But my involvement in these types of cases and in facing judges when explaining these types of things gives me a little expertise ---

When it comes to these things, the next thing that is looked at is evidence to support the claim being made. And the thing is, JB has all the evidence in the world with his various radiographic studies and comparing his studies with those of the normal person.

Even though this is involving millions of dollars, its an issue that comes up in courts everyday in a very real way --- social security and medicaid. Lots of people are out there and want to get a check from Uncle Sam for "disability". While the dollars are much less in that situation per person, the same process goes on in deciding who to give disability to, and who not to give it to. And I got to tell you - in my opinion 90% of the time the courts get it right. And they look at radiographs and labs and things that are concrete and not subjective.

I think on this occasion, the evidence is there to support the JB situation and say that most people misjudged his injury when in fact he truly is unable to play basketball. His knees, from what my buddies tell me, look worse than Geezer's.

Bball
06-16-2006, 12:01 AM
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD302/OS40024.JPG




You must have some amazing extra sensory powers.

Thank you...

-Bball

Unclebuck
06-16-2006, 12:05 AM
Bender was going to be a bust injury or not. The only question was how big of a bust.




-Bball



I disagree with you 100%. He would have been an excellent player. He was already starting to be a matchup nightmare, and he would have really been a huge problem for teams to defend. And his shootblocking was going to be outstanding

But we'll never find out for sure

Robertmto
06-16-2006, 02:09 AM
But did you skip a grade because of it?

Haha, no i'm not good enuff. :cry:

Kaufman
06-16-2006, 06:06 AM
I disagree with you 100%. He would have been an excellent player. He was already starting to be a matchup nightmare, and he would have really been a huge problem for teams to defend. And his shootblocking was going to be outstanding

But we'll never find out for sure

I don't think he was necessarily a "can't miss" --- in some sense I think that he might have been a bust in the sense that he might not have been able to live up to the billing that he had gotten before he arrived - a Damon Bailey phenomenon if you will.

Bball
06-16-2006, 10:34 AM
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD302/OS40024.JPG


It's easy to repeat one's self when one's position has been proven correct.

-Bball

Anthem
06-16-2006, 10:53 AM
It's easy to repeat one's self when one's position has been proven correct.
A legend in his own mind...

Bball
06-16-2006, 11:26 AM
A legend in his own mind...

And predicted exactly how the Bender situation would play out....

-Bball

Since86
06-16-2006, 11:29 AM
And predicted exactly how the Bender situation would play out....

-Bball


Even a broken clock is right twice a day......

Doug
06-16-2006, 12:48 PM
I'm just glad it's over.

DisplacedKnick
06-16-2006, 03:35 PM
I disagree with you 100%. He would have been an excellent player. He was already starting to be a matchup nightmare, and he would have really been a huge problem for teams to defend. And his shootblocking was going to be outstanding

But we'll never find out for sure

The only matchup nightmare he ever presented was his inability to defend big guys in the post or small guys on the perimeter. IOW - he couldn't defend anyone.

He was never going to amount to much. A contributing reserve was his top end. It tends to be that way for great athletes without much in the way of basketball skills.

He should have been a high jumper. And you should have traded him back when I suggested it - when he was at peak value.

timmanis2000
06-16-2006, 04:12 PM
I,m glad it is over.

PacerMan
06-16-2006, 04:33 PM
Medical science hasn't created a pain meter. I'll save the apology to Bender, my problem was with TPTB making a bad situation worse by not cutting ties sooner, extending him with a stupid contract, not trading him when we had a chance(s), etc..

He should be very thankful he was taken by the Pacers. No other team would've given him the opportunities or money the Pacers did.

That his knees hurt too bad for him to play is a sad situation but Bender was going to be a bust injury or not. The only question was how big of a bust.




-Bball

Complete and total BS.