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View Full Version : JO trade scenarios.



Young
06-14-2006, 01:03 AM
We all know how we offered JO for Bosh last summer and were turned down. We all know about the rumors of JO being trading for the 1rst or 2nd picks in this years draft. Maybe not rumors, but "ideas".

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/40908/20060613/raptors_say_they_wont_trade_pick_for_jermaine/

Here is what stands out to me from the link above:
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O'Neal has been rumored to be on the market for several weeks now, despite statements made by the Indiana front office.
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I really have doubts about JO being traded for a pick. There are a lot of reasons why it probably won't happen. From our standpoint would the Simons/Donnie allow this, do we hold onto JO to long like we did with Ron? Heck can Larry get a deal he likes? Again, probably not. And from the Raptors/Bulls standpoint do they want to take on JO and his injury problems and high dollar salary? Probably not.

I question rather we trade JO for much of anything. We don't tend to make big trades like we would be making. But we are in a very unique situation, IMO. So we could change, especially if Bird has complete control of the team.

But anyways, pretending that we try and trade JO this summer, i'd like to know who you think wants JO?

You have to start off with the Knicks. I would consider them a real contender for JO. They have Channy Frye, and I would think they would trade him for JO. We would have to take a bad salary though to make it work.

The Warriors would also be in the mix. They have a lot of nice players to offer us. Diogu/Biedrins/Pietrus/Foyle/Murphy/Dunlevy/Fisher/Ellis/Taft/9th pick. They have so much to offer us, they could get a deal done in a variety of ways.

I guess the Bulls could have interest in JO. But do we trade JO to a team in our division? And do the Bulls give up enough to get JO? (2nd pick/Gordon maybe?) Do we want to re build? A lot of questions would have to be answered but I guess the Bulls could deal for JO.

tdubb03
06-14-2006, 01:28 AM
2nd pick and Gordon would be fabulous. I can't see Toronto taking Morrison #1, though it's not a stretch by any means. Take him at the 2.

Ship Tinsley/Jax and our 17 and try to move up to around pick 9/10 and get Shelden Williams.

Think about it, this could be our starters;

1: Gordon
2: Jax
3: Morrison
4: Foster/Williams/Harrison
5. Williams/Foster/Harrison

Hey, it's realistic.

------EDIT--------
Man, that's so full of holes. Seattle wouldn't want Tinsley. Then there's the whole stojakovic Situation.

spazzxb
06-14-2006, 03:13 AM
2nd pick and Gordon would be fabulous. I can't see Toronto taking Morrison #1, though it's not a stretch by any means. Take him at the 2.

Ship Tinsley/Jax and our 17 and try to move up to around pick 9/10 and get Shelden Williams.

Think about it, this could be our starters;

1: Gordon
2: Jax
3: Morrison
4: Foster/Williams/Harrison
5. Williams/Foster/Harrison

Hey, it's realistic.

------EDIT--------
Man, that's so full of holes. Seattle wouldn't want Tinsley. Then there's the whole stojakovic Situation.

how can you ignore granger?

Pacersfan46
06-14-2006, 03:48 AM
how can you ignore granger?

and Peja ..... we just let a talented player walk? No way.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 07:29 AM
2nd pick and Gordon would be fabulous. I can't see Toronto taking Morrison #1, though it's not a stretch by any means. Take him at the 2.

Ship Tinsley/Jax and our 17 and try to move up to around pick 9/10 and get Shelden Williams.

Think about it, this could be our starters;

1: Gordon
2: Jax
3: Morrison
4: Foster/Williams/Harrison
5. Williams/Foster/Harrison

Hey, it's realistic.

Ben Gordon isn't a PG and where is Granger? And why is Williams starting at the 5? Do you just wanna give away 30 points in the paint a game?

Anthem
06-14-2006, 08:03 AM
And Jermaine in Chicago?

D-BONE
06-14-2006, 08:19 AM
Assuming the Garnett rumors have been proven to be just that, of what has been suggested here, if I were to trade JO, I'd look to work something with GS. It would have to include both Pietrus and Diogu, which I doubt they'd do of course.

Frank Slade
06-14-2006, 09:39 AM
KG, JO, AI, apparently if your nickname is two letters you possibly will be traded over the summer.

blanket
06-14-2006, 09:47 AM
I've advocated a JO to Golden State deal for a while now. I think this kind of package would be a good one:

Richardson and Diogu, plus one of the following: Pietrus, Biedrins, or a future 1st round pick.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 09:48 AM
Antonio Daniels we will protect you!

:wizards:

Slick Pinkham
06-14-2006, 11:45 AM
There's an interesting thread on one of the most active and knowledgeable boards in the NBA, the Houston fan board "clutch city".

People are naming who they think are the top 10 players in the NBA.

19 posters have responded so far, and not one person lists Jermaine among their 10.

FrenchConnection
06-14-2006, 12:01 PM
There's an interesting thread on one of the most active and knowledgeable boards in the NBA, the Houston fan board "clutch city".

People are naming who they think are the top 10 players in the NBA.

19 posters have responded so far, and not one person lists Jermaine among their 10.

Thats because he is not top 10, but that does not make him a bad player. If you had asked non-Indiana fans, Reggie would not have made a top ten list at any point in his career.

Bball
06-14-2006, 12:39 PM
There's an interesting thread on one of the most active and knowledgeable boards in the NBA, the Houston fan board "clutch city".

People are naming who they think are the top 10 players in the NBA.

19 posters have responded so far, and not one person lists Jermaine among their 10.

Top ten players? Only the most homerific fan would place JO on that list. Top ten power forwards would be more interesting to read if made by non Indiana fans or otherwise unbiased observers.

-Bball

JayRedd
06-14-2006, 02:35 PM
There's an interesting thread on one of the most active and knowledgeable boards in the NBA, the Houston fan board "clutch city".

People are naming who they think are the top 10 players in the NBA.

19 posters have responded so far, and not one person lists Jermaine among their 10.

I can't think of a single person that could come up with any sort of an argument that JO is better than any of these guys:

Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Wade
Nash
Dirk
KG
Brand
Pierce
McGrady
Shaq

I think the better question is whether he's even Top 20. These guys are all at least debatable: Iverson, Yao, Arenas, Vince, JKidd, Marion, Amare, Bosh, Carmelo, Manu, Tony Parker, Artest, Chris Paul, Chauncey, Jerome James (just checking to see if you're paying attention)

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 02:39 PM
I AM, I AM!!! Now pleez take him off

Mourning
06-14-2006, 02:42 PM
Maybe the plan is to let JO increase his own trade value and let the team stabilize a little the coming season by getting the most prominent problems in the locker room out.

Then if that works we go into full trading modus next summer when there's a nice draft, JO is much higher ranked again on the top players list (back to old weight, less injuries) and the coach can be replaced by someone who fits in better with the new direction the front office wants the team to go in without having to pay two coached at the sametime.

Seems far fetched, but realistically we aren't going anywhere the coming year and what we have in players that we could trade doesn't warrant a lot of return value, so why not first improve that and then stay reasonably afloat by just making the play-offs and do the MAJOR restructuring next summer when our position for major trades and acquisitions is much better then it is this summer?

Just throwing out a line of thought here.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Shade
06-14-2006, 03:17 PM
Channing Frye = :puke:
Shelden Williams = :puke:

Seriously, guys, come on...

ChicagoJ
06-14-2006, 03:22 PM
Using JayRedd's list:

Kobe - top 5
Duncan - top 5
Lebron - top 5
Wade - top 10
Nash - top 10 * (Just because he's MVP does not mean he's a top-5 player.)
Dirk - top 10
KG - top 5
Brand - not a top-10 IMO
Pierce - not a top-10 IMO
McGrady - if he's included it with an "assume he's healthy assumption". Under that assumption, JO is also a top-10 player. You can't have it both ways.
Shaq - top 5

I think JO (assuming he's healthy) is a top 6-10 player. Which means that, when everything is going right, he's an longshot MVP candidate (as he was in 2003/04) and when he's hurt people forget just how good he is when he's healthy.

Maybe we'll never see that version of JO again. But that would be a shame because JO does belong in that elite class of players.

Shade
06-14-2006, 03:25 PM
Using JayRedd's list:

Kobe - top 5
Duncan - top 5
Lebron - top 5
Wade - top 10
Nash - top 10 * (Just because he's MVP does not mean he's a top-5 player.)
Dirk - top 10
KG - top 5
Brand - not a top-10 IMO
Pierce - not a top-10 IMO
McGrady - if he's included it with an "assume he's healthy assumption". Under that assumption, JO is also a top-10 player. You can't have it both ways.
Shaq - top 5

I think JO (assuming he's healthy) is a top 6-10 player. Which means that, when everything is going right, he's an longshot MVP candidate (as he was in 2003/04) and when he's hurt people forget just how good he is when he's healthy.

Maybe we'll never see that version of JO again. But that would be a shame because JO does belong in that elite class of players.

Top 6-10? I think JO's underrated, but not THAT underrated.

I'd say Top 20-25, though, certainly. And Top 5 at his position.

Still, he needs the right players to compliment him. Another "star" (Peja?) and 3-4 good "role-players;" Magloire, Al, etc.

Slick Pinkham
06-14-2006, 03:33 PM
Amare (assuming good health), Carmelo, Iverson, Yao, Marion, Manu, and JayRedd's top 10 are all above JO IMO

I'm wavering on Parker, Arenas, Bosh, Billups, and Paul.

That puts him in the 17-22 range.

I might be overinflating his abilities, since I admit to being a Pacer fan homer. I think most impartial NBA fans would have him in the 20-30 range.

Shade
06-14-2006, 03:37 PM
I'm wavering on Parker, Arenas, Bosh, Billups, and Paul.

I might give you Arenas, but that's it from that list. Bosh, maybe, in time, but not right now.

ChicagoJ
06-14-2006, 03:41 PM
Yeah, but every one of those (post) players also need another "star" and 3-4 good role players.

Kobe - wing player with ball in his hands > 75% of the time
Duncan - post player with another star (Ginoboli) and 3-4 GREAT role players
LeBron - wing player with ball in his hands > 75% of the time
Wade - wing player with ball in his hands > 50% of the time, and another STAR (Shaq) and 3-4 good-to-great role players
Nash - PG with ball in his hands >75% of the time, two additional stars (Stoudamire and Marion) and several great role players
Dirk - maybe there isn't another "star" but the rest of this team follows the Detroit Pistons "team" model very, very well
KG - falling in stock for similar reasons to JO's alleged decline - he's supporting cast sucks. But KG is still KG
Brand - I'd give Cassell and Mobley more credit for the Clippers resurgence than Brand
Pierce - wing player with the ball in his hands > 75% of the time but does not belong on this list
McGrady - wing player with the ball in his hands ? 50% of the time with another border-line star (Yao) but a weak cast of role players
Shaq - post player with another Star (Wade) and 3-4 good-to-great role players.

I think this argument that "JO is not top-whatever because he needs to play with players that compliment his game" is nonsense.

Don't blame JO for the perceived drop in his value - blame management for putting together a team that exposed his weaknesses.

That's still true of every single great player in the NBA. Basketball is still a team game.

Let's play the game this way - which of those top-ten players, if you dropped them onto the Pacers and took away JO, would clearly make the Pacers a better team?

Same list:

Kobe - that's iffy - because we'd be a doughnut team and we'd probably still lose in the first round of the playoffs.
Duncan - yes (assuming no plantar fasciaitis)
LeBron - same problem as Kobe
Wade - same problem as LeBron and Kobe
Nash - that's interesting, but this team is certainly not cut out to play with Nash
Dirk - probably yes, but I'd be concerned about a defensive frontline of Dirk and Jeff - talk about soft
KG - I'm not convinced KG alone would make the rest of the Pacers any better. That's an interesting debate, though
Brand - I believe JO is a better player than Brand, although of course their stats are similar
Pierce/ McGrade - same problems as discussed before with players that aren't even as good as Kobe, LeBron, and Wade so the team probably wouldn't even make the playoffs
Shaq - heck yes, but not for much longer

Hicks
06-14-2006, 03:45 PM
Would I trade JO for...

Kobe? Hell yes.
Duncan? Yes.
LeBron? Hell f-ing yes.
Wade? Probably.
Nash? Probably not due to his age.
Dirk? Probably now I would since he's changed.
KG? Probably.
Brand? Tough call.
Pierce? No.
McGrady? Unlikely, but I'd think about it.
Shaq? Not now.

Shade
06-14-2006, 03:47 PM
Would I trade JO for...

Kobe? Hell yes.
Duncan? Yes.
LeBron? Hell f-ing yes.
Wade? Probably.
Nash? Probably not due to his age.
Dirk? Probably now I would since he's changed.
KG? Probably.
Brand? Tough call.
Pierce? No.
McGrady? Unlikely, but I'd think about it.
Shaq? Not now.

I pretty much agree with that.

bulldog
06-14-2006, 03:47 PM
Using JayRedd's list:

Kobe - top 5
Duncan - top 5
Lebron - top 5
Wade - top 10
Nash - top 10 * (Just because he's MVP does not mean he's a top-5 player.)
Dirk - top 10
KG - top 5
Brand - not a top-10 IMO
Pierce - not a top-10 IMO
McGrady - if he's included it with an "assume he's healthy assumption". Under that assumption, JO is also a top-10 player. You can't have it both ways.
Shaq - top 5


If that's your list, you're stuck in the past.
These lists are silly, and what does it even mean to be better when comparing apples and oranges (i.e. Nash vs. JO), but they're fun to do so I'll throw my hat into the ring. To clarify what it means to be "best", I'm gonna say this is the order I would draft guys if the whole league was re-drafted. They're not ranked within each category:


Franchise guys anyone would love to build around (1-4)
Dirk, LeBron, Wade, Duncan

Elite, but Limited or Have Question Marks (5-9)
Kobe, Nash, McGrady, KG, Brand

Those guys you ansolutely can't argue with. Now...
Very good and IMHO much better than JO (11-22)
Paul Pierce (did anyone actually watch the season he had; amazing), Chris Bosh, Shaq (he could very easily drop off the list), Tony Parker, Manu Ginnobli, Yao, Amare, Marion, Pau Gasol, Michael Redd, Ray Allen, Iverson, Arenas

Put JO at 23 at the earliest.

Shade
06-14-2006, 03:50 PM
Bosh is not currently better than JO. He's close, and has the potential to be better, but isn't as of right now. And he sure as hell isn't "MUCH better."

Parker is also overrated. Very inconsistent.

Gasol is about even with JO, but I think JO is slightly better.

I'd definitely put Yao, Manu, Amare, Redd, and Allen above him.

bulldog
06-14-2006, 03:52 PM
Kobe - that's iffy - because we'd be a doughnut team and we'd probably still lose in the first round of the playoffs.


Maybe, but he plays 82 games. At least it's a metaphorical doughnut. With JO we literally have a hole in the middle cause he's sitting on the sideline in an Armani suit. Not his fault, but being injury prone should be taken into consideration.

I have to say that you and I absolutely do not come even close to the way we think about the games top players. I feel you're overrating JO and being too critical of everyone else.

ChicagoJ
06-14-2006, 04:02 PM
Has JO really regressed that much? (Answer: No.)

I don't think my list is stuck in the past. Rather, I think I'm being less-myopic that many of these lists.

C'mon, he's in the "Elite, but Limited or Have Question Marks" category.

Looking at your 10-20:

Pierce - great stats on a losing team (something that has plagued Brand every year but one. Brand is benefitting, while JO suffers, from the What have you done lately? category.
Bosh - I'm not sold on him yet, let's see what he can do in the playoffs before we declare him to be better than JO
Shaq - I continue to disagree with the exaggerations of his demise
Parker - better than JO? No.
Ginoboli - I think he's top-ten, replacing Pierce from JayRedd's list
Yao - better than JO? No.
Amare - I think he's top-ten, replacing McGrady from JayRedd's list
Marion - better than JO? No.
Gasol - Would Memphis homers even argue that he's better than JO? Debatable.
Redd - No.
Allen - No.

I find it bewildering just how much Pacers' fans do not appreciate JO.

Its not that the SG that replaces Reggie in the Pacers' lineup has a hard act to follow, but it seems to me that the fans are not ready to embrace the Franchise Player that replaces Reggie.

And that's a shame, because a lot of you are ready to toss away a great, great NBA player for reasons that are not really his fault (questionable coaching/ gameplans, a mis-matched team/ utterly bad lockerroom chemistry and relationships between players & coaches, coaches & management, players & management, and possibly even within management.

Frankly, I'd hate to think of how bad this team would've been this season WITHOUT JO's efforts to hold it together.

Arcadian
06-14-2006, 04:15 PM
Intrestingly enough just about every player named is on a better team than the Pacers. It is even worse if you don't include Peja who we may or may not have been renting for half a season (and a third of the playoffs.)

Please tell me what star would make a starting line up of AJ, SJax, Peja, Cro and Foster (replace whomever you like) look good?

jcouts
06-14-2006, 04:20 PM
I will embrace JO when he starts making the players around him better.

As much as Ron needed to go, and I will not argue for a moment that he did not, he made JO and everyone else better players when he was in the game.

JO has never made anyone around him a better player when he has been in the game. Some would even argue that he makes players worse right now.

If he changes that, I'll embrace him.

Peck
06-14-2006, 04:46 PM
Has JO really regressed that much? (Answer: No.)

I don't think my list is stuck in the past. Rather, I think I'm being less-myopic that many of these lists.

C'mon, he's in the "Elite, but Limited or Have Question Marks" category.

Looking at your 10-20:

Pierce - great stats on a losing team (something that has plagued Brand every year but one. Brand is benefitting, while JO suffers, from the What have you done lately? category.
Bosh - I'm not sold on him yet, let's see what he can do in the playoffs before we declare him to be better than JO
Shaq - I continue to disagree with the exaggerations of his demise
Parker - better than JO? No.
Ginoboli - I think he's top-ten, replacing Pierce from JayRedd's list
Yao - better than JO? No.
Amare - I think he's top-ten, replacing McGrady from JayRedd's list
Marion - better than JO? No.
Gasol - Would Memphis homers even argue that he's better than JO? Debatable.
Redd - No.
Allen - No.

I find it bewildering just how much Pacers' fans do not appreciate JO.

Its not that the SG that replaces Reggie in the Pacers' lineup has a hard act to follow, but it seems to me that the fans are not ready to embrace the Franchise Player that replaces Reggie.

And that's a shame, because a lot of you are ready to toss away a great, great NBA player for reasons that are not really his fault (questionable coaching/ gameplans, a mis-matched team/ utterly bad lockerroom chemistry and relationships between players & coaches, coaches & management, players & management, and possibly even within management.
Frankly, I'd hate to think of how bad this team would've been this season WITHOUT JO's efforts to hold it together.


Jay, no offense because you know I respect you but IMO you are running the risk of becoming J.O.'s Uncle Buck.

There are some real & serious flaws with O'Neal both on & off the court that the Pacers have to deal with.

I will paraphrase Isiah Thomas's words to J.O. the summer before he was fired. He told J.O. to not work on jump shots or rebounding or passing or anything basketball related. He told him to try & be a better man.

To J.O.'s credit he appeared to take that to heart. There have been things beyond his control & dealing with Artest surely would tax anybody. But let's not make him out to be an angle either. There have been plenty of stories of J.O. conducting his personnel business on a cellphone while the team is having a meeting or coming to practice late & leaving early.

We've all seen the guy on the floor. He believes that he is due respect from every player & official that has ever lived because he is an all-star. Do you think he gets mad at physical play because he doesn't like physical play or because it offends him that the refs. let players play like that against him.

Remember his first press conferance here? You know the one he talked about winning the M.I.P., the M.V.P. & being an all-star but somehow never got around to talking about trying to win a title.

Does all of this make J.O. evil? No, of course not.

But let's not just say people are discounting him because of the coach. Yes, I feel that Carlisle's system sucks as well. But I am also NOT convinced that Jermaine's ego would allow him to be a cog in a wheel. I still believe the team has to force feed him in part to keep him happy as much as it does it because Rick likes that kind of offense.

I will now ask you the same question I asked U.B. years ago about Ron.

Do you honestly believe that Jermaine O'Neal would be happy winning but not being the focus on offense & not being an all-star because his #'s were down to say 16ppg?

Can you honestly say that Jermaine would willingly step back for another player?

What's ironic about this situation is that you do realize that it was J.O. who finally convinced Walsh to move your boy Jalen for Ron don't you?

I guess I get if you think the tides have turned to much against J.O. that you feel the need to defend him. But let's not annoint this guy for Sainthood.

beast23
06-14-2006, 04:53 PM
I will embrace JO when he starts making the players around him better.

As much as Ron needed to go, and I will not argue for a moment that he did not, he made JO and everyone else better players when he was in the game.

JO has never made anyone around him a better player when he has been in the game. Some would even argue that he makes players worse right now.

If he changes that, I'll embrace him.Agreed. And that brings up another point. Why is Ron not on the list? The list is obviously based on talent, not personality.

Now, if I were making up a list, I'd probably base my list of who is better than JO on which players I'd be willing to trade JO for in a 1-for-1 trade.

If that were my criteria, at this time Branch and Bosh would both rank ahead of JO in my book. Ron, because of his lack of self-control, would not.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 05:05 PM
I am so happy to see you guys givin Arenas his respect. He was the fourth leading scorer this year and its just amazing what he can do when the games on the line.

brs14ku
06-14-2006, 05:07 PM
I've advocated a JO to Golden State deal for a while now. I think this kind of package would be a good one:

Richardson and Diogu, plus one of the following: Pietrus, Biedrins, or a future 1st round pick.

I would love to get Pietrus and Diogu here as they seem like Indiana's type of players. Would absolutely love it. Jrich isn't bad either though. We would still need help at PG but Rich and Pietrus fill the 2 and 3 rather nicely when you put them with Granger and jax or peja.

JayRedd
06-14-2006, 05:16 PM
I think the better question is whether he's even Top 20. These guys are all at least debatable: Iverson, Yao, Arenas, Vince, JKidd, Marion, Amare, Bosh, Carmelo, Manu, Tony Parker, Artest, Chris Paul, Chauncey, Jerome James (just checking to see if you're paying attention)

Sure do feel like a retard here quoting myself, but since yall adopted my list, I just wanted to make sure yall know where I stand. I'd put a few of these guys ahead of him (prolly Yao, JKidd, Amare if he comes back well, and Paul), but I'd say he's definetely a Top 12-20 player in this league, depending on my mood that day. And that's plenty good enough to build around as long as you can get another guy in the Top 30 along with him.

There's nobody in the league, nor has there ever been, that can get team results on individual talent. I take nothing away from JO that he can't carry this mediocre at best roster deep into the playoffs. He needs help in the form at least a Manu Ginobli level talent. It takes one or two elite guys and a supporting cast of at least 2-3 other very solid NBA ballplayers to make a contender. JO is just as good as he was a few years ago, which makes him one of the best big men in basketball. That's probably the more important "ranking" to do, because as someone else said, you can't really compare JO to a guy like TMac or Paul Pierce when the talent is fairly comparable.

So which Bigs are better than JO (who I agree with Jay is being underrated now as much as we were overrating him three years ago):

Definetely Better
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Dirk

Probably Better
Amare
Yao
Brand

Might be better or too young to tell
Bosh
Howard
Ben Wallace


So it's reasonable to argue we have a Top 5-8 big man in this league. I think that's good enough to build around. We just have to get him a real perimeter side-kick--Peja and Danny are not gonna get it done.

Slick Pinkham
06-14-2006, 05:16 PM
Many of you seriously underestimate Yao Ming. Did you notice his development this year, even in a slow-motion offense without much help due to injured teammates?

Tell me why JO should be above Yao in anyone's list?

His first 4 years have shown steady and dramatic improvement:

Yao

02-03: 13.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.79 bpg, & 29 mpg
03-04: 17.5 ppg, 9 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.9 bpg, & 32.8 mpg
04-05: 18.3 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 0.8 asp, 2.0 bpg, & 30.6 mpg
05-06: 22.6 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.66 bpg, & 34.7 mpg

Kevin Garnett in his early years:

95-96: 10.8 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1.64 bpg, & 28.7 mpg
96-97: 17.0 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.10 apg, 2.12 bpg, & 38.9 mpg
97-98: 18.5 ppg, 9.6 rpb, 4.2 apg, 1.83 bpg, & 39.3 mpg
98-99: 20.8 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 4.30 apg, 1.77 bpg, & 37.9 mpg

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 05:18 PM
Realistic fans bash JO, yes!!!

JayRedd
06-14-2006, 05:22 PM
Many of you seriously underestimate Yao Ming. Did you notice his development this year, even in a slow-motion offense without much help due to injured teammates?

Tell me why JO should be above Yao in anyone's list?

His first 4 years have shown steady and dramatic improvement:



Agreed. He was an absolute animal after the All Star Break this year, averaging 25.7 ppg and 11.6 rpg on 53% from the floor.

Slick Pinkham
06-14-2006, 05:23 PM
I find it bewildering just how much Pacers' fans do not appreciate JO.

I am bewildered why anyone would think that is the case. We all think he's a top 25 player, most think top 20, I could even go up to 17 or so.

I see this topic discussed on forums not involving Pacers fans and trust me, JO is not among the top 20 names mentioned, EVER.

D-BONE
06-14-2006, 05:42 PM
I will embrace JO when he starts making the players around him better.

As much as Ron needed to go, and I will not argue for a moment that he did not, he made JO and everyone else better players when he was in the game.

JO has never made anyone around him a better player when he has been in the game. Some would even argue that he makes players worse right now.

If he changes that, I'll embrace him.

I'm not one who'd go so far as to say he makes players around him worse, but I'd definitely agree he does not raise their level either in on-court performance or in terms of team chemistry/motivation a la the leader role.

He's a nice guy and talented player. I see eye to eye with those who are putting him between 18-25 in the best player lists (despite the futility of making such lists).

Maybe some of us undervalue him. However I submit some on this board may be to soft in their criticism going so far as to consistently deflect any responsibility for the team's situation away from him. Yet he is supposedly the leader and franchise player.

My opinion continues to be that he is most suited to the #2 guy role as far as offensive option and team captain/leader/glue role. He should be the dominant #1 rebounding/interior D guy.

I'm not saying it's all his fault. Simply that he must factor into the team's difficulties to a reasonable degree. The same can be said for the coach, as well.

JayRedd
06-14-2006, 05:54 PM
Not sure how everybody can criticize JO for his "leadership abilities". Have you guys seen what happened to this team over the last two years? Between the two-year Ron Artest saga and all the injuries, this was barely even a team. And you expect JO just to pick everyone up on his shoulders and make them all play with happy smiles on their face or get healthy or take this mediocre roster to the 2nd Round? If you want a leader that could have done that, you might want to go find General Patton or Martin Luther King, Jr. Because I'd like to here your suggestions as to what other NBA player was going to "lead" this roster under these circumstances to anywhere other than a first round playoff loss.

I'm not trying to argue that JO is, in fact, a terrific leader. I'm just wondering what all the naysayers base their "JO's Not a Leader" idea on. Has he had a legitimate chance to even attempt to "lead" this team since Reggie (the unquestionable leader, character and face of the Pacers for over a decade) retired?

Bball
06-14-2006, 06:15 PM
der these circumstances to anywhere other than a first round playoff loss.

I'm not trying to argue that JO is, in fact, a terrific leader. I'm just wondering what all the naysayers base their "JO's Not a Leader" idea on. Has he had a legitimate chance to even attempt to "lead" this team since Reggie (the unquestionable leader, character and face of the Pacers for over a decade) retired?


Yes he has... First he had the 2004-2005 season once he returned from suspension. Then he had the 2005-2006 season where he had the path cleared for him by the departure of Reggie and Artest eventually PLUS he had the experience of the 04-05 season to build on (where he should've known he came up short and had an idea what he was going to need to improve upon in leading the team).

Alas, he failed miserably and helped create a black hole where other players either naturally rose to fill the void or forced themselves into it. That's a big part of the problem. The position was handed to JO on a silver platter and then circumstances gave him a situation where he could really grab the reins and instead he fell off the horse. That itself created turmoil and doubt IMHO.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 06:19 PM
Guys that I rank ahead of JO -
Pierce
LeBron
Dirk
Carmelo
Billups
McGrady (but not if his back is completely shot by now)
Yao
Brand
Kobe
Wade
Shaq
Garnett
Howard
Iverson
Nash
Marion
Stoudemire (if he isn't ruined)
Duncan
Ginobili
AK47
Bosh
Arenas


That puts JO at #23 for now.

Sollozzo
06-14-2006, 06:22 PM
Yes he has... First he had the 2004-2005 season once he returned from suspension. Then he had the 2005-2006 season where he had the path cleared for him by the departure of Reggie and Artest eventually PLUS he had the experience of the 04-05 season to build on (where he should've known he came up short and had an idea what he was going to need to improve upon in leading the team).

Alas, he failed miserably and helped create a black hole where other players either naturally rose to fill the void or forced themselves into it. That's a big part of the problem. The position was handed to JO on a silver platter and then circumstances gave him a situation where he could really grab the reins and instead he fell off the horse. That itself created turmoil and doubt IMHO.

-Bball


I don't think you're being handed something on a silver platter when you're asked to lead a team that has been devastated by suspensions and injuries one year, and then Artetst asking for a trade and more injuries the next.

JO will be handed something on a silver platter when he gets a better team around him. I'm not the biggets JO fan, but he really hasn't had the best scenarios for the 2 past seasons.

ChicagoJ
06-14-2006, 07:07 PM
Jay, no offense because you know I respect you but IMO you are running the risk of becoming J.O.'s Uncle Buck.

No offense to UB, but I probably won't fall into that role.


There are some real & serious flaws with O'Neal both on & off the court that the Pacers have to deal with.

I agree with this. I'm just trying to counter-punch the prevailing (yet myopic and wrong) opinion that JO is not even a top-twenty player in the NBA.


I will paraphrase Isiah Thomas's words to J.O. the summer before he was fired. He told J.O. to not work on jump shots or rebounding or passing or anything basketball related. He told him to try & be a better man.

To J.O.'s credit he appeared to take that to heart. There have been things beyond his control & dealing with Artest surely would tax anybody. But let's not make him out to be an angle either. There have been plenty of stories of J.O. conducting his personnel business on a cellphone while the team is having a meeting or coming to practice late & leaving early.

Yeah I agree, but I believe that happens on just about every team with just about every superstar. Its a serious problem, but when these guys get interested in endoresements and non-basketball-related businesses, they get distracted. Like when Dale and Mark opened that clothing store in the Hyatt. Just play ball, guys.


We've all seen the guy on the floor. He believes that he is due respect from every player & official that has ever lived because he is an all-star. Do you think he gets mad at physical play because he doesn't like physical play or because it offends him that the refs. let players play like that against him.

I understand and agree somewhat. I think he doesn't like physical play because he's worried that his body won't hold up and therefore he won't be able to prove just how great he really is. And I believe that's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. He certainly needs to shut-up-and-play, on a consistent basis.


Remember his first press conferance here? You know the one he talked about winning the M.I.P., the M.V.P. & being an all-star but somehow never got around to talking about trying to win a title.

Now you're just upset about that because it was Dale who just left town. So perhaps we just replaced one me-first guy with another.
:brick:

:flirt:


Does all of this make J.O. evil? No, of course not.

But let's not just say people are discounting him because of the coach. Yes, I feel that Carlisle's system sucks as well. But I am also NOT convinced that Jermaine's ego would allow him to be a cog in a wheel. I still believe the team has to force feed him in part to keep him happy as much as it does it because Rick likes that kind of offense.

I disagree. But that's the portion of this discussion that is the most "fun." I think Rick's role in this problem is vastly underrated.


I will now ask you the same question I asked U.B. years ago about Ron.

Do you honestly believe that Jermaine O'Neal would be happy winning but not being the focus on offense & not being an all-star because his #'s were down to say 16ppg?

I don't know, but I also don't think it would be in the Pacers' best interest for JO's scoring to drop that far. Unless he were to become a 16-14 guy. But I think that if we can get him to 14 rebounds per game that his scoring will go up, not down. Frankly, he doesn't take an absurdly high % of the team's shots (less than 20% of the team's shots during this season's playoffs; during his last full season he took 22% of the teams' shots. Contrast that with guys like Kobe that take one-third of their teams shots - LeBron is at 29%, Duncan is at 22% or so - he's missed enough games over the past couple seasons for misleading results, Dirk is at 25%.)


Can you honestly say that Jermaine would willingly step back for another player?

I don't think he would. But keep in mind, I don't think that's the right course for fixing the Pacers (finding a player better than JO to play *with* JO.) Besides, if we trade JO we can't get a better player than JO. Who the :censored: else are we going to trade that will net us a player that JO *should* take a back seat to? That was a fair question regarding Ron - we already had that player in JO. But as Jesse Jackson said on SNL, "THE QUESTION IS MOOT!"


What's ironic about this situation is that you do realize that it was J.O. who finally convinced Walsh to move your boy Jalen for Ron don't you?

Yeah. I won't dispute that Jalen was clearly not working out well in the new/ Zeke & JO-led Pacers era.


I guess I get if you think the tides have turned to much against J.O. that you feel the need to defend him. But let's not annoint this guy for Sainthood.

Agree. I'm mostly talking about the over-the-top bashing of him solely because he wasn't able to single-handedly save the Titanic from sinking whilst DW, Bird, and Rick were pouring extra water into the boat.


I see this topic discussed on forums not involving Pacers fans and trust me, JO is not among the top 20 names mentioned, EVER.

He's had a rough couple of years, and his stock has slipped because of the numerous injuries and the overall villification of everyone involved with the brawl.

Thus, I keep refering to this as a myopic problem.

They're just plain wrong if they think a healthy JO is not a top-twenty player.

If he gets the support he needs (from Foster's future replacement, whomever that is), it will be fun to watch everyone declare that JO "is back."

His game hasn't changed. Rick (along with Stan Van Gundy) has fully exposed a weakness we knew was there (his passing).

Ron has exposed that JO still needs to mature as a leader, but we knew that, too.

Trade JO and KG straight up and make no further roster changes, and the best either team is going to achieve is a first-round playoff exit.

So, come on, everyone else needs to drop KG out of their top twenty and then I'll shut up about this. Deal? Ditto for Bosh - does anybody really think Bosh could've led this team any further than they got?

BTW, I really don't like the new merge feature. :twocents:

Slick Pinkham
06-14-2006, 08:02 PM
top 10:

LeBron
Dirk
Kobe
Wade
Garnett
Carmelo
McGrady (if healthy)
Yao
Brand
Nash

second 10:
Marion
Stoudemire (if healthy)
Duncan
Shaq
Iverson
Billups
Pierce
Ginobili
Bosh
Arenas

third 10:
Jermaine O'Neal
AK47
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Gasol
Artest
Hinrich
Vince Carter
Jason Kidd
Ben Wallace

Kegboy
06-14-2006, 08:15 PM
..everything he just said...

:hug2:

Shade
06-14-2006, 10:36 PM
top 10:

LeBron
Dirk
Kobe
Wade
Garnett
Carmelo
McGrady (if healthy)
Yao
Brand
Nash

second 10:
Marion
Stoudemire (if healthy)
Duncan
Shaq
Iverson
Billups
Pierce
Ginobili
Bosh
Arenas

third 10:
Jermaine O'Neal
AK47
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Gasol
Artest
Hinrich
Vince Carter
Jason Kidd
Ben Wallace

Grr...Bosh is NOT better than JO! :tongue:

And going by that list, I would say JO is a Top 20 player.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 10:51 PM
TPTB seemed to think so last summer.

rel
06-14-2006, 10:54 PM
Guys that I rank ahead of JO -
Pierce
LeBron
Dirk
Carmelo
Billups
McGrady (but not if his back is completely shot by now)
Yao
Brand
Kobe
Wade
Shaq
Garnett
Howard
Iverson
Nash
Marion
Stoudemire (if he isn't ruined)
Duncan
Ginobili
AK47
Bosh
Arenas


That puts JO at #23 for now.


top 10:

LeBron
Dirk
Kobe
Wade
Garnett
Carmelo
McGrady (if healthy)
Yao
Brand
Nash

second 10:
Marion
Stoudemire (if healthy)
Duncan
Shaq
Iverson
Billups
Pierce
Ginobili
Bosh
Arenas

third 10:
Jermaine O'Neal
AK47
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Gasol
Artest
Hinrich
Vince Carter
Jason Kidd
Ben Wallace


i think you guys are really overrating Ginobli, i don't see him better than JO at all

Shade
06-14-2006, 10:55 PM
TPTB seemed to think so last summer.

No, they saw a player making much less $$$ who was close and with the potential to be better.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 10:57 PM
No, they saw a player making much less $$$ who was close and with the potential to be better.

But can you disagree? Bosh is on an incline and JO is on a decline.

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:00 PM
But can you disagree? Bosh is on an incline and JO is on a decline.

But JO is still currently better, and anything can happen. Bosh may never reach JO's level, even though he's close right now. It's not likely, but possible. So, you can't rate Bosh above him right now.

And I don't agree that JO is on a decline. But he won't reach his full potential with our current frontcourt.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 11:02 PM
But JO is still currently better, and anything can happen. Bosh may never reach JO's level, even though he's close right now. It's not likely, but possible. So, you can't rate Bosh above him right now.

And I don't agree that JO is on a decline. But he won't reach his full potential with our current frontcourt.

I think he will be at the end of nest year.

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 11:03 PM
i think you guys are really overrating Ginobli, i don't see him better than JO at all

I think he is, although his overall game was down a notch this year.

I'm biased though, I love to watch that guy play.

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:04 PM
I think he will be at the end of nest year.

Whether you think that or not, it's not relevant in the current discussion. I think Granger will be better than JO in a few years.

ChicagoJ
06-14-2006, 11:05 PM
JO is on a decline?

:lol:

After rushing back from a torn groin muscle (have you ever tried to jump or sprint on a torn groin muscle - not pulled, torn?), he averaged 21p/8r/2+ blocks while struggling with no explosion and some serious foul trouble in the playoffs. That's not "in decline".

That's a great player who has had a bad run of injuries over the past two seasons but will be "in his prime" for several more seasons.

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 11:06 PM
JO is on a decline?

:lol:

After rushing back from a torn groin muscle (have you ever tried to jump or sprint on a torn groin muscle - not pulled, torn?), he averaged 21p/8r/2+ blocks while struggling with no explosion and some serious foul trouble in the playoffs. That's not "in decline".

That's a great player who has had a bad run of injuries over the past two seasons but will be "in his prime" for several more seasons.

I really hope it is just a bad run of injuries and not something that will continue.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 11:07 PM
Will he ever be able to reach his full potential from b4 his injuries? If not I find that to be on a decline. IMO

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:07 PM
JO is on a decline?

:lol:

After rushing back from a torn groin muscle (have you ever tried to jump or sprint on a torn groin muscle - not pulled, torn?), he averaged 21p/8r/2+ blocks while struggling with no explosion and some serious foul trouble in the playoffs. That's not "in decline".

That's a great player who has had a bad run of injuries over the past two seasons but will be "in his prime" for several more seasons.

Dammit, Jay, the two of us are starting sound like a broken record here. :laugh:

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 11:08 PM
Whether you think that or not, it's not relevant in the current discussion. I think Granger will be better than JO in a few years.

Hmmm, Bosh has been healthier, and is the better offensive player. He's also no slouch in the other areas. I give him the edge, for now anyhow...

ChicagoJ
06-14-2006, 11:09 PM
Dammit, Jay, the two of us are starting sound like a broken record here. :laugh:

Hey, you know its negative around here when *I* sound like Sally :sunshine:.

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 11:09 PM
I just wonder if JO will ever become dominant at any phase of the game; I wonder if he can lift his level of play like Dirk has.

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:11 PM
Hmmm, Bosh has been healthier, and is the better offensive player. He's also no slouch in the other areas. I give him the edge, for now anyhow...

Bosh is slightly better in one category in a system more attuned to expose that strength. Not a real convincing argument for me.


I just wonder if JO will ever become dominant at any phase of the game; I wonder if he can lift his level of play like Dirk has.

Ah, how soon we all forget just two seasons ago...

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 11:14 PM
Ah, how soon we all forget just two seasons ago...

?


Hey, you know its negative around here when *I* sound like Sally :sunshine:.

I think I will start feeling the positive energy once the draft hits, or once I see some moves made and which direction this team is going in. Right now I just feel 'stuck.'

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:16 PM
?



I think I will start feeling the positive energy once the draft hits, or once I see some moves made and which direction this team is going in. Right now I just feel 'stuck.'

You don't remember JO being an MVP candidate? How about his 55-point game?

The Pacers were serious contenders just two seasons ago and JO was that team's Dirk.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 11:16 PM
Ernie G has had me feeling like that for 2 years now. DRAFT SOME D!!!

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:19 PM
Ernie G has had me feeling like that for 2 years now. DRAFT SOME D!!!

Or hire a defensive-minded coach.

How about Larry Brown? ;) :brick:

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 11:19 PM
You don't remember JO being an MVP candidate? How about his 55-point game?

He was an MVP candidate, but not dominant - just the best player on a great team.

His 55 point game was dominant - he teases us with dominant scoring stretches, and stretches where he shows he can rebound the heck out of the ball. Will he ever put it together for a season + playoffs? I'm hoping he can.

Look at Dirk, I never thought he would have made the leap from great player to elite player, but he did.

JO has to do it now!

Peck
06-14-2006, 11:21 PM
Bosh is slightly better in one category in a system more attuned to expose that strength. Not a real convincing argument for me.



Ah, how soon we all forget just two seasons ago...


I don't watch a lot of Raptors games but can you tell me that the Raps focus their offense more around Bosh than the Pacers do around O'Neal? For God's sake isn't that what we've all complained about for the past two years? You know the entire throw it into J.O. offense that we have.

It was shown that J.O. only shoots 20 some % of our shots, but I wonder how much time % wise that the ball is in J.O.'s hand compared to Boshs.

Robertmto
06-14-2006, 11:21 PM
Or hire a defensive-minded coach.

How about Larry Brown? ;) :brick:

Actuall I like Eddie Jordan as a coach. He is a friend of the players, ala Avery Johnson. We just need to stop going after offensive minded players every off season.

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:23 PM
He was an MVP candidate, but not dominant - just the best player on a great team.

His 55 point game was dominant - he teases us with dominant scoring stretches, and stretches where he shows he can rebound the heck out of the ball. Will he ever put it together for a season + playoffs? I'm hoping he can.

Look at Dirk, I never thought he would have made the leap from great player to elite player, but he did.

JO has to do it now!

Precious few players are consistently dominant.

And if you want JO to "step it up," he needs a better supporting cast. Especially up front.


I don't watch a lot of Raptors games but can you tell me that the Raps focus their offense more around Bosh than the Pacers do around O'Neal? For God's sake isn't that what we've all complained about for the past two years? You know the entire throw it into J.O. offense that we have.

It was shown that J.O. only shoots 20 some % of our shots, but I wonder how much time % wise that the ball is in J.O.'s hand compared to Boshs.

Toronto plays a much more up-tempo, free-flowing offense with more scoring opportunities.

SoupIsGood
06-14-2006, 11:24 PM
Precious few players are consistently dominant.



See, that's the thing. We need JO to be one of those precious few!

Look at the East - LeBron, Wade, and Dwight Howard are all going to be dominant players on good teams. We need more firepower, and it's got to start at JO! He needs to become elite, a "special" player.

That starts with a few things.

One, JO stays healthy somehow. That means not missing games, and either still playing effectively with the nagging injuries, or somehow avoiding those.

Two, BOX OUT! And a greater focus on rebounding. I think his intensity and focus on defense is fine though.

Three, he's got to improve the jumper and become more consistent. At times, his 15 foot shot is a real weapon, and at times, it's worthless. He's got to make that at a higher percentage.

Fourth, he's got to get better at attacking from the face-up position, and using different post moves. Sometimes he gets stuck in a niche of the same old predictable moves.

Fifth, SHOOT OVER FIFTY PERCENT (for a season) FOR ONCE!!!!!! Jeeez that frustrates me.

Young
06-14-2006, 11:25 PM
Look at Dirk, I never thought he would have made the leap from great player to elite player, but he did.

Was it Dirk becoming an elite player, or did the Mavs just become an elite team?

I think that the Pacers need to focus on getting JO some good players. We need to get 2-3 more good players on this team. Not only do we need good players, we need the pieces to fit. I don't care to much if we get defenseive players or offenseive players, as long as the team has chemistry.

Shade
06-14-2006, 11:26 PM
See, that's the thing. We need JO to be one of those precious few!

Look at the East - LeBron, Wade, and Dwight Howard are all going to be dominant players on good teams. We need more firepower, and it's got to start at JO! He needs to become elite, a "special" player.

Well, our team has been built around TWO players the last few years. Maybe with a revamped roster, JO can do just that. He's shown glimpses. But the roster needs to be upgraded.


Was it Dirk becoming an elite player, or did the Mavs just become an elite team?

I think that the Pacers need to focus on getting JO some good players. We need to get 2-3 more good players on this team. Not only do we need good players, we need the pieces to fit. I don't care to much if we get defenseive players or offenseive players, as long as the team has chemistry.

QFT

D-BONE
06-15-2006, 08:07 AM
Was it Dirk becoming an elite player, or did the Mavs just become an elite team?

I think that the Pacers need to focus on getting JO some good players. We need to get 2-3 more good players on this team. Not only do we need good players, we need the pieces to fit. I don't care to much if we get defenseive players or offenseive players, as long as the team has chemistry.

I think both points in this argument have validity. IOW, this development of elite team and elite player is always to a greater extent a symbiotic relationship.

As far as the Mavs are concerned, they have improved on a team level with solid personnel acquisitions, a great coaching hire, and Dirk's ascent to elite status the last couple seasons IMO. Could any of the above in isolation have gotten them to the finals? I think probably not.

The jury is still out on the Pacers IMO in all these areas. Can JO approach the level Dirk currently inhabits? Can we get in the calibur of player that meshes chemistry-wise? Is RC the right coach? To this point the answers are all no.

Could it still happen? Possibly, but I'm not too confident. Our cap situation has us handcuffed. For those who say 2-3 more good players to get the team/JO where it needs to be, are any of those 2-3 guys currently on our roster? Peja and DG would be 2 guys? If not, who and how do we obtain them?

Will Galen
06-15-2006, 08:52 AM
Has JO really regressed that much? (Answer: No.)

I don't think my list is stuck in the past. Rather, I think I'm being less-myopic that many of these lists.

C'mon, he's in the "Elite, but Limited or Have Question Marks" category.

Looking at your 10-20:

Pierce - great stats on a losing team (something that has plagued Brand every year but one. Brand is benefitting, while JO suffers, from the What have you done lately? category.
Bosh - I'm not sold on him yet, let's see what he can do in the playoffs before we declare him to be better than JO
Shaq - I continue to disagree with the exaggerations of his demise
Parker - better than JO? No.
Ginoboli - I think he's top-ten, replacing Pierce from JayRedd's list
Yao - better than JO? No.
Amare - I think he's top-ten, replacing McGrady from JayRedd's list
Marion - better than JO? No.
Gasol - Would Memphis homers even argue that he's better than JO? Debatable.
Redd - No.
Allen - No.

I find it bewildering just how much Pacers' fans do not appreciate JO.

Its not that the SG that replaces Reggie in the Pacers' lineup has a hard act to follow, but it seems to me that the fans are not ready to embrace the Franchise Player that replaces Reggie.

And that's a shame, because a lot of you are ready to toss away a great, great NBA player for reasons that are not really his fault (questionable coaching/ gameplans, a mis-matched team/ utterly bad lockerroom chemistry and relationships between players & coaches, coaches & management, players & management, and possibly even within management.

Frankly, I'd hate to think of how bad this team would've been this season WITHOUT JO's efforts to hold it together.

Very, very, good! Sometimes you nail it!

Trader Joe
06-15-2006, 03:05 PM
Let me ask those who say Manu is better than JO. You do realize Manu is a year older than JO? You do realize that Manu had a pretty big let down season? You do realize that Manu's value is highly overrated due to the NBA finals he had against Detroit a year ago? So basically all I can say is saying Manu>JO is one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard. Manu is good, but he is not better than JO. I mean really would you trade JO straight up for Manu? Not unless you wanted to be in the lottery for th next 3 or 4 years.

Young
06-15-2006, 03:12 PM
Let me ask those who say Manu is better than JO. You do realize Manu is a year older than JO? You do realize that Manu had a pretty big let down season? You do realize that Manu's value is highly overrated due to the NBA finals he had against Detroit a year ago? So basically all I can say is saying Manu>JO is one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard. Manu is good, but he is not better than JO. I mean really would you trade JO straight up for Manu? Not unless you wanted to be in the lottery for th next 3 or 4 years.

I agre with indy0731 here. Manu is good, he is an all star type talent. But he is not as good as JO.

vapacersfan
06-15-2006, 05:03 PM
I don't think anyone is having a hard time accepting JO as a franchise player. Just the contrary, I think many people were quick to assume JO would become the next "leader" just because he said the right things and because Reggie said he was passing him the torch. We all know Reggie was leader till the day he retired, and for good reason.

Do I think JO is a good player? For sho. even a great player? No doubt! But he can not carry a team by himself

He and Artest led this team to that 61 win season and the ECF's, and those two would have worked out great gad Artest not turned into a Mo-Ron.

JO can not lead this team by himself, and that is not a knock on him.

If we continue to stand pat (I hope to god we don't have to worry about this and it becomes a moot point) and just play "throw the ball to JO and let him create" we are going to continue to be dissappointed.

Now I have said since 11/19 that I thought JO would have a stigma attached to him because of the brawl, but I guarentee you that if he is able to get the team back to the "elite" status and even back to the ECFAnd hopefully the NBA finals then all would be forgotten and he would be accepted as the "face" of the franchise.

That isn't going to happen, however, ifall he leads us to is .500 season and first round exits

Shade
06-15-2006, 06:26 PM
Look at this team on paper and tell me it's much better than a .500 team. Brad Miller, Al Harrington, Reggie Miller, and Ron Artest are gone. Peja didn't play in 67% of the playoffs. We are currently JO, Peja, and the scrub squad (Danny is coming along, but isn't there yet). Just on paper, NJ should have swept us.

bulldog
06-15-2006, 07:25 PM
Manu's an NBA and World Champ. I understand Duncan's great, but Manu was the primary option down the stretch for both of those teams. He is one of the great players in the NBA. Until JO wins something, it's not even a comparison.

Gasol puts up similar stats on a team with less talent, plays many, many more games, and gets a better record. Hmm...

Marion is much more valuable than JO. Everything except the scoring...

I also forgot Kirilenko, who belongs in the Top 10-15.

If you saw Yao play when he was healthy, he was as dominant as JO at his peak, with literally nothing around him. Almost as much scoring, and a greater impact on D and the boards.

JO's a great player, an All-Star, not arguing that, but he's not an elite superstar. To win a title, we need another player of All-Star caliber. If managment determines they can't aquire one, we should get rid of JO, as we can field .500 teams without paying one guy $18 mil.

ChicagoJ
06-15-2006, 08:44 PM
Manu's an NBA and World Champ. I understand Duncan's great, but Manu was the primary option down the stretch for both of those teams. He is one of the great players in the NBA. Until JO wins something, it's not even a comparison.

Agree - of course I've got both Manu and JO in my top-ten.


Gasol puts up similar stats on a team with less talent, plays many, many more games, and gets a better record. Hmm...

The Grizzlies have less talent than the Pacers (minus JO)?? Nah, I don't buy that. As for the last two comments, that's an interesting correlation. JO has to get past the injuries that have plagued him the past two seasons that have resulted from him gaining the weight/ bulk necessary to play C. I'll admit that didn't work out too well; I was a leading advocate that JO's development as a "C" was a key variable in allowing Brad Miller to leave. My hunch is that, once JO loses the excess bulk, we are not talking about the injury-plagued JO anymore.


Marion is much more valuable than JO. Everything except the scoring...

So the Suns have three players more valuable than JO? Why aren't they defending their championship this week?


I also forgot Kirilenko, who belongs in the Top 10-15.

That's too high. 15-20 maybe.


If you saw Yao play when he was healthy, he was as dominant as JO at his peak, with literally nothing around him. Almost as much scoring, and a greater impact on D and the boards.

Better D? Really? Yao Ming vs. Jermaine O'Neal? :-o


JO's a great player, an All-Star, not arguing that, but he's not an elite superstar. To win a title, we need another player of All-Star caliber. If managment determines they can't aquire one, we should get rid of JO, as we can field .500 teams without paying one guy $18 mil.

JO needs a better surrounding cast, without a doubt.

Since when did everyone decide that to be a "superstar" you had to be able to take a bunch of mis-matched stiffs (by NBA standards) and single-handedly lead them to a title?

Other than Wilt a couple of times who has done that? That's an absurd criticism of JO.

I hate sounding like a damn rah-rah cheerleader, but the underserved negativity toward JO *as a player* is mystifying. I can understand criticism of his attitude at times, and if there's one thing he doesn't do well it is to pass out of the post to a bunch of teammates that have quit moving (although if you asked Bill Walton in his prime to pass out of the post to bunch of guys with their feet anchored in concret, he'd fail too.)

vapacersfan
06-15-2006, 09:04 PM
Look at this team on paper and tell me it's much better than a .500 team. Brad Miller, Al Harrington, Reggie Miller, and Ron Artest are gone. Peja didn't play in 67% of the playoffs. We are currently JO, Peja, and the scrub squad (Danny is coming along, but isn't there yet). Just on paper, NJ should have swept us.

Sorry if I am assuming, but this post was right after mine, but in case that was directed at me I never said otherwise.

I am honestly surprised it wasnt a 4 game sweep.

Sorry Jay, I have been in and out of this thread and I know my logic is a little off with me going backwards instead of forward.



KG - I'm not convinced KG alone would make the rest of the Pacers any better. That's an interesting debate, though


I realize KG has had some rough seasons these past few years, but honestly that is the one thing that seperates JO from the "elite".

I think the "elite" guys are able to take a team and bring out the full potential in there teammates. We have not seen that out of JO.

Once again, not a insult. Just more of an observation. I think we are quick to label guys "superstars" and "elite" now a days.

Just my .92


I am so happy to see you guys givin Arenas his respect. He was the fourth leading scorer this year and its just amazing what he can do when the games on the line.

Gil is a very good player, and a fun one to watch. He certainilly has his flaws, but I think he gets respect from most people. Esp. after the Wizards last couple of runs.

Shade
06-16-2006, 12:19 AM
Gil is a very good player, and a fun one to watch. He certainilly has his flaws, but I think he gets respect from most people.

Hey! "Gill" is spelled with TWO l's! :tongue:

JayRedd
06-16-2006, 11:52 AM
You do realize that Manu had a pretty big let down season?

I agree that JO is better than Manu, but Ginobli was pretty much hurt all season.

And this isn't directed at you Indy07, but it's a little frustrating to hear all this talk in the media about players drastically improving or getting worse from year to year when they're in their late 20s or older. This really is just "flavor of the month" talk. Perception says that JO is worse than he was in his MVP year. Perception is that Manu isn't as good as he was two years ago. Perception is that KG is now not as good as he was when the TWolves went to the WCFs.

Now, I'm not saying that people can't improve their jump shooting, ball-handling or just get a little better with maturity, but the notion that Manu's or KG's talent for this game somehow got any worse than it has been their whole life is pretty short-sighted. Basketball's a very, very simple game. You don't get worse. You may get old, or you be put in an environment where you can't succeed as well as you could in another one, but you don't get worse.

That's all I have to say about that.

Young
06-16-2006, 04:37 PM
Paul Pierce would like Jermaine or Kevin Garnett in Boston.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketb..._ left_elbow/

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I don't know too much about this draft, about the talent. I don't know if there's going to be anybody that will be much of an impact player in their first year at the seventh pick. What would I do? I'd find a way to use that seventh pick to get a guy like a Kevin Garnett, a Jermaine O'Neal, somebody. At least explore it.
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blanket
06-16-2006, 04:44 PM
Paul Pierce would like Jermaine or Kevin Garnett in Boston.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketb..._ left_elbow/

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I don't know too much about this draft, about the talent. I don't know if there's going to be anybody that will be much of an impact player in their first year at the seventh pick. What would I do? I'd find a way to use that seventh pick to get a guy like a Kevin Garnett, a Jermaine O'Neal, somebody. At least explore it.
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OK, how about a JO for Pierece and Jefferson.

Oh, you mean he'd like JO to JOIN him in Boston? ;)

FrenchConnection
06-16-2006, 04:55 PM
OK, how about a JO for Pierece and Jefferson.

Oh, you mean he'd like JO to JOIN him in Boston? ;)

You mean so that we can miss the playoffs like the Celtics?

bulldog
06-16-2006, 06:08 PM
JO + Pierce would be a good combo. The celtics are stuck, however, as WallyWorld and Lafrentz's contract make it difficult to rebuild, meaning they need to stick with Pierce till the end.

vapacersfan
06-17-2006, 09:01 PM
Hey! "Gill" is spelled with TWO l's! :tongue:

I was not speaking of the legend that is Eddit Gill ;)