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Unclebuck
06-12-2006, 10:27 AM
Sam Smith might be crazy, but there is some interesting stuff in here.



http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-0606120smith,1,753460,print.column?coll=cs-columnists-navigation



INSIDE THE NBA

2 Hall of Famers, 1 savvy GM
Sam Smith
On Pro Basketball

June 12, 2006

There's a wonderful symmetry at work with two NBA franchises. Both are run by Hall of Famers who played for the Celtics. Both have superstar-level players whose values have diminished, and both are in transition.

But only one, the Pacers with Larry Bird, knows it's in transition. The Timberwolves with Kevin McHale don't.

Apparently not much has changed since the 1980s when Bird and McHale combined with Robert Parish as probably the best frontcourt in NBA history. Bird was the serious, hard-driving one always looking forward to getting better. McHale had the talent, if not necessarily the vision.

That's why the talk fast-breaking around the NBA these days is that the Pacers are pushing for major moves involving their star forward, Jermaine O'Neal, while the Timberwolves are sitting back with their star forward, Kevin Garnett, and expected to go forward with pretty much what they have.

It remains highly unlikely that Minnesota will trade Garnett. The Timberwolves are said to be looking to move their No. 6 draft pick for a veteran to complement Garnett, though it's hard to imagine they could get someone significant at that level in this draft. With Larry Brown likely out as New York's coach, it seems the Knicks will keep Stephon Marbury. So maybe the Timberwolves will make a deal for Steve Francis, who actually could help. But they look like a team just trying to make the playoffs in Garnett's waning years. What's the point?

The Pacers understand their situation better, which is why they've been one of the most forward-thinking franchises in the league. Rather than risk going down slowly after making the Finals in 2000, they broke up their team without falling to the bottom and quickly returned to championship contention. Because of Ron Artest and the big brawl against Detroit, the plan fell apart. They made the playoffs last season, but they understand the goals are larger. They could make the playoffs again with the team they have, but why bother?

That's why they're said to be one of the teams talking with Toronto about a trade for the No. 1 pick. Although it has been rumored that Toronto will pick Italian 7-footer Andrea Bargnani, I don't believe that. It's clear Chris Bosh, the Raptors' star forward, doesn't want that, and priority No. 1 is extending Bosh's contract. Plus, as a first-year general manager, Bryan Colangelo probably doesn't want to take such a risk with the No. 1 pick in a draft with personnel experts saying any one of six players could justify a top pick.

One of the rumors from Toronto has been that the Raptors would add a veteran inside player to ease the burden on Bosh and try to be a playoff team immediately. Memphis' Pau Gasol has been mentioned, and one could make a case for the Grizzlies trying to get younger and save some money with an ownership change apparently imminent. The other rumor is a deal for the Pacers' O'Neal, who could be the kind of low-post presence to ease the strain on Bosh.

Bosh is said to be pushing for Texas forward LaMarcus Aldridge as the No. 1 pick. They're even working out together now. But it would be hard for the Raptors to say no to O'Neal, a perennial All-Star.

The talk is the Pacers would throw in their No. 17 pick, which would give the Raptors a shot at a point guard and a team ready to compete next season. The Pacers would get back forward Charlie Villanueva, whom Colangelo is said to be willing to deal.

There are some other factors which suggest a major Pacers' makeover.

Pacers coach Rick Carlisle is entering the final year of his four-year contract with no extension likely. He's done a remarkable job in some respects with all the turmoil from suspensions and injuries, but Bird said at the end of the season that Carlisle "probably did lose the team" at times.

Bird also said when he left the Pacers' coaching job after three seasons that three is probably the optimum run for a coach with one group of players. Insiders say Bird privately was lobbying for major moves last summer because he envisioned the fit wouldn't work anymore, but he was persuaded by ownership to endorse the current coaching staff. Now it seems Bird has been vindicated and will have a freer hand to make moves.

One rumor is the Pacers would take Gonzaga guard/forward Adam Morrison at No. 1 if they made the deal. But it seems more likely they'd try to re-sign Peja Stojakovic and draft a big man, probably Aldridge, to pair with Villanueva, and then move Stephen Jackson and Jamaal Tinsley and be back in contention sooner than many would expect.

The Timberwolves could do something similar, though I'm convinced they won't. In fact, the way the NBA is going these days with the perimeter dominance, if I were the Bulls I'm not sure I'd even want Garnett anymore and probably would just use my draft picks. But if Minnesota could get both first-round picks and a player, say Ben Gordon or Luol Deng, for Garnett, wouldn't they have to consider that? It would give them an exciting young nucleus. But, heck, if you can get to eighth in the West, why change?

All that Jazz

The Jazz finally got Brigham Young star Rafael Araujo, whom the Raptors took No. 8 in 2004. Araujo doesn't figure to be a starter, but he's a big body to help with Greg Ostertag having retired. And the Raptors could get something out of Kris Humphries, who never got a chance with Carlos Boozer and Mehmet Okur signed after that draft. The Jazz, though, continues to look at big men, suggesting it might have a deal for Boozer. The Jazz is said to be looking at Bradley's Patrick O'Bryant, UConn's Hilton Armstong, Duke's Shelden Williams--whose workouts hint he might go top 10--and Saer Sena, the 7-footer from Senegal who impressed Karl Malone in a workout. Said Malone: "He's hungry; he didn't start playing until 2003."

Addition by subtraction

Maybe the NBA should just disband several franchises and make a stronger league. How about Charlotte, Memphis, Atlanta and Portland to start?

The Bobcats have now run out their president, chief operating officer and marketing head in the last two weeks amid declining ticket sales despite a new arena. The Trail Blazers remain for sale, and bankruptcy even has been mentioned. The Grizzlies are for sale, and there's talk of a group including former NBA player Christian Laettner coming in and cutting back. And last week a Maryland judge ruled in favor of former Atlanta part-owner Steve Belkin's claim that he be allowed to buy out the partners who ran him out, setting up more appeals and a franchise in chaos. Then there's Seattle for sale and seeking a new arena and the Jazz talking of losing millions annually.

Hey, but it's been a good playoffs.

Mile-high news

Shawn Kemp gave himself a positive review after working out for the Nuggets at a free-agent camp. He told Denver reporters: "I wanted to make it through every drill, through every play and not come up hurt, not take any plays off, and I was able to do that. I actually surprised myself with my speed. I ran better than most of the big guys here." Kemp, who hasn't played since 2002-03, said he'll work out for Dallas. . . .

Denver coach George Karl says he hasn't spoken to Kenyon Martin since he suspended Martin in the playoffs. Said Karl: "We have a frontcourt situation which Kenyon, Marcus (Camby), Nene, Carmelo (Anthony) all want to be paid $10 million. You can't have that. So there's going to have to be some cleaning out there."

Double dribbles

Gonzaga's Morrison says not to worry about his diabetes and mentions players who succeeded with the disease, like Chris Dudley in basketball, Bobby Clarke in hockey and Ron Santo in baseball. Bobcats coach Bernie Bickerstaff was so impressed with Morrison's workout that he said Morrison might not get to them at No. 3. . . . Former Bull Jason Williams, trying to come back from his 2003 motorcycle accident, has worked out for or is expected to see the Raptors, Grizzlies and Nets. . . . Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy said on New York radio that his relationship with Heat coach Pat Riley has been strained with the early-season departure of his brother, Stan as Miami coach. Jeff added: "I don't think they're any better coached this year than they have been in the last two years with Stan."

Finals thoughts

Something special about this year's Finals is two guys we didn't expect to see there, Magic Johnson and Alonzo Mourning. Johnson, who 15 years ago was diagnosed with the AIDS virus, worked for TNT leading up to the Finals and remains the NBA's No. 1 ambassador. Mourning, in his first Finals with the Heat, was diagnosed with kidney disease six years ago and had a transplant.

"Everyone thought I was going to die, like a year later," Johnson, 46, told CNN in an interview earlier this year. "Most people who are healthy, and I'm healthy, can't even live my life. Trust me. I get up at 5:30, 6 every morning. I run a couple of miles. I lift weights, and then I'm at work until 8, 9 at night. The only time I think about HIV is when I have to take my medicine twice a day."

Said Mourning: "I give everything I've got. It ain't a matter of pacing myself. I just go as hard as I can. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed."

"Next year isn't guaranteed. It's not guaranteed this team will be together. Who knows?"
Copyright 2006, The Chicago Tribune

Frank Slade
06-12-2006, 10:43 AM
Nice find UB... forgetting this is Sam Smith for a moment , there does seem to be a ring of truth to at least portions of the article... and if Bird still truly feels that he was unable to make "Major Moves" last summer, who else could that be in reference too but JO and or Tinsley..:confused:

edit: or I guess he could of been referencing Artest,even though it would appear he was in Ronnie's corner publically.

Although giving up both our 17th and JO for Villanueva and the 1 does not make sense Money wise,not to speak of how it does not match up talent wise..

Dollars wise Toronto could trade
Villanueva, Mike James, Mo Pete, Alvin Williams and their #1
for Jo and the 17th pick.. strictly numbers wise that matches up. unless I am missing something in regards to Toronto being under the cap ?

Unclebuck
06-12-2006, 10:51 AM
In regards to Bird wanting to make major moves last summer (which I think is the most newsworthy portion of the article) if you remember last summer right after the season, Bird was very critical of JO suggesting that he really needs to stand up and be the leader. I was surprised Bird said that in the media, but that might add a little credence to what Sam is writing here.

And we pretty much know that JO was offered for Bosh last summer. We also learned that Jax, JO, went to TPTB and asked they keep the team together, and we know that the owners liked Ron a lot.

You add everything up now, and yes it is very believeable that Bird wanted to make major moved last summer but was more or less talked out of it. Well that's history now, but what that means is he will make major moves this summer.

Bball
06-12-2006, 10:54 AM
We've been told somewhere that the Simons have put the kibosh on moving Artest in the past. Was that supposedly last summer or was that the summer prior to the brawl (following Artest's playoff meltdown)?

BTW... I thought the local media has always told us the Simons were 'hands off' kind of owners and let the basketball people run the team?

-Bball

Knucklehead Warrior
06-12-2006, 10:55 AM
The other rumor is a deal for the Pacers' O'Neal, who could be the kind of low-post presence to ease the strain on Bosh

Is this what jermO meant when he said he could use some help from a big man? :laugh:

Bball
06-12-2006, 10:55 AM
Well that's history now, but what that means is he will make major moves this summer.

Let us hope so anyway...

-Bball

Pacers#1Fan
06-12-2006, 10:58 AM
You never know for sure what this team is going to do until it's done. That's just the way its always been. It's frustrating the way this franchise keeps everyone snowed. We have been hearing "BIG MOVES BIG MOVES BIG MOVES!!!" for at least the last three off seasons and what have we gotten? Brad for Scot and Al for Stephen. Not exactly blockbusters. I don't count the Artest for Peja deal because it was during the season and wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been forced upon us by he who we do not speak of. Hell, the only strokes of luck this franchise has gotten the last couple years was helping Reggie make it to the playoffs in his final season (which that was more heart than luck) and snagging Granger in last years draft (definitely luck and great scouting). All in all the only thing we can do is sit back and pray that Donnie and Larry make the right decisions and hope we are happy with those decisions.

Unclebuck
06-12-2006, 11:00 AM
Wait a minute, I just read this part again

Insiders say Bird privately was lobbying for major moves last summer because he envisioned the fit wouldn't work anymore, but he was persuaded by ownership to endorse the current coaching staff. Now it seems Bird has been vindicated and will have a freer hand to make moves.


And it is less clear to me now. Something doesn't make sense. The part I have in bold. When was he pursuaded to endorse the current coaching staff? Last summer or this summer. When I first read that I thought the major moves were in regards to player moves, but if you re-read that it is talking about coaching staff.

I need Bball to read between the lines here.

Why can't these professional writers be more clear.

Slick Pinkham
06-12-2006, 11:02 AM
I'm all for major moves but not involving JO, unless it involves getting a clearly better player here for him.

I'd love getting KG.

I don't think JO is a top 10 player, but he is solidly in the 12-20 range with the ability to be a top 10 player when healthy and well-motivated, and thus far above offers like Villanueva and a high draft pick in a crappy draft.

Trading a top 15 player for two in the 75-100 range is not a good move, EVER.

Unclebuck
06-12-2006, 11:02 AM
We've been told somewhere that the Simons have put the kibosh on moving Artest in the past. Was that supposedly last summer or was that the summer prior to the brawl (following Artest's playoff meltdown)?

BTW... I thought the local media has always told us the Simons were 'hands off' kind of owners and let the basketball people run the team?

-Bball

There was an article sometime after Ron was traded February (or was in in either MM or Wells Q&A about how the owners did not want to trade Artest)

microwave_oven
06-12-2006, 11:03 AM
If this is true, then it is refreshing. This means that Bird is not buying into the "minor tweaks" theory. I'm not saying that JO and the 17th for CV3 and the 1st is a good trade, but the idea that Larry is not happy with the team is refreshing.

indygeezer
06-12-2006, 11:37 AM
Wait a minute, I just read this part again

Insiders say Bird privately was lobbying for major moves last summer because he envisioned the fit wouldn't work anymore, but he was persuaded by ownership to endorse the current coaching staff. Now it seems Bird has been vindicated and will have a freer hand to make moves.


And it is less clear to me now. Something doesn't make sense. The part I have in bold. When was he pursuaded to endorse the current coaching staff? Last summer or this summer. When I first read that I thought the major moves were in regards to player moves, but if you re-read that it is talking about coaching staff.

I need Bball to read between the lines here.

Why can't these professional writers be more clear.


I wondered about that too UB. Re-reading that you get the feeling Bird was ready to insert a new coaching staff LAST year and was told NO. I can't imagine that inserting Kevin O'Neal was how he wanted to change the staff either. But then again you have to ask yourself, "Just how much does this writer really know about the Pacer situation?"

Will Galen
06-12-2006, 11:54 AM
Last year is when we had Mike Brown who now coach's Cleveland. I liked the coaching staff better with him. In fact I thought everyone did.

Another thought, according to this it's the Simon's that want to go slow. Peck and others have always blamed Donnie for not making fast enough changes, but now an argument could be made that the team is run the way the Simon's want it run.

Next year when Donnie's contract is up will be interesting. I think the Simon's will make every effort to keep him because he seems to accept the Simon's pace whereas Bird doesn't.

Interesting article! Very interesting! Good post UB!

Slick Pinkham
06-12-2006, 12:00 PM
If we are going to move JO to move up in the draft,

I wonder if Houston would part with McGrady and their #8 for JO and our #17.

We take the risk of T-Mac's back blowing up, but we draft a solid PG at #8 and start:

Jeff or Hulk
Danny
Peja
TMac
AJ/rookie PG

I could go for that if docs clear T-Mac.

Bball
06-12-2006, 12:08 PM
Wait a minute, I just read this part again

Insiders say Bird privately was lobbying for major moves last summer because he envisioned the fit wouldn't work anymore, but he was persuaded by ownership to endorse the current coaching staff. Now it seems Bird has been vindicated and will have a freer hand to make moves.


I need Bball to read between the lines here.

Why can't these professional writers be more clear.

Maybe Larry told the Simons something like: "We're in trouble. This collection of players is not going to mesh. They will make life very difficult for Rick and make his job impossible"

The Simons: "Larry, we don't make trades for the sake of trades. When we all decide there is a problem then we'll take some time to decide the best direction and address it a few months later once we talk to Donnie and we all can agree it's time to make a move... or thereabouts. Nothing rash. We don't won't to jump the gun. Isn't that right, Donnie?"

Donnie "Patience... We must have patience"

The Simons "So Larry, why don't you just make sure and endorse Rick and get his back so these players know who is boss"

:shrug:

-Bball

blanket
06-12-2006, 12:09 PM
Nice find UB... forgetting this is Sam Smith for a moment , there does seem to be a ring of truth to at least portions of the article... and if Bird still truly feels that he was unable to make "Major Moves" last summer, who else could that be in reference too but JO and or Tinsley..:confused:

edit: or I guess he could of been referencing Artest,even though it would appear he was in Ronnie's corner publically.

Although giving up both our 17th and JO for Villanueva and the 1 does not make sense Money wise,not to speak of how it does not match up talent wise..

Dollars wise Toronto could trade
Villanueva, Mike James, Mo Pete, Alvin Williams and their #1
for Jo and the 17th pick.. strictly numbers wise that matches up. unless I am missing something in regards to Toronto being under the cap ?

Toronto is under the salary cap, so matching salaries is not an issue in any potential trade with them.

Hicks
06-12-2006, 12:16 PM
I thought it was pretty clear he was referring to Larry wanting a coaching change.

However, didn't Jay tell us before that Monday columns are where Smith just throws crap on the wall to see what sticks, and it's mostly just BS?

Unclebuck
06-12-2006, 12:18 PM
However, didn't Jay tell us before that Monday columns are where Smith just throws crap on the wall to see what sticks, and it's mostly just BS?



Yes he does, but they are still enjoyable to read.

ChicagoJ
06-12-2006, 12:49 PM
This doesn't seem to be the "Sam pretends he's the GM of the Bulls" schtick that we normally see on a Monday - that's when he's clearly just making stuff up and calling it "opinion". This seems to have some research behind it. It could all be wrong (unless he's relying on an unnamed Vecsey he's rarely got the Pacers behind-the-scenes stuff right) but I don't know what to think about this one.

I didn't see a column from Sam in the print edition yesterday.

Nevermind, I did see it. For the fourth time in this season's playoffs, he attempted to predict Shaq's demise. So far he's 0-3, with some massive games against the Bulls and Pistons along the way. :unimpress

Kegboy
06-12-2006, 12:51 PM
Yes he does, but they are still enjoyable to read.

:rolleyes:

Yes, I just love journalism as entertainment.

Anyway, regardless of who wrote this, I find it very hard to believe that Larry wanted to get rid of Rick last year. Maybe he wanted to get a better replacement for Mike, as opposed to just promoting O'Neill and making Chuck official, but that's it.

Peck
06-12-2006, 12:58 PM
All I can think is that more & more our team is a mess because our upper management is a mess.

It appears we have a vast differance of philosophy's between the Simons/Walsh & Bird.

Every single article I read keeps saying that last season Bird was ready to chuck this team.

I truely wonder if Bird will stay once Donnie leaves because if the Simons are actually behind the slow moves then I wonder if Bird will tolerate it that long.

BTW Will, I agree. If it has been the Simons all of these years my entire world view will have to be changed.

Either way though, if the article is true I will say this. It makes me happy, I like the way Bird is not content. We've had 20 years of contentment & I look forward to something new, if we get to see it.

Steve
06-12-2006, 12:59 PM
It seems that everyone in the media keeps saying how good Brandon Roy is. If we got Roy, he could fill a void in our backcourt, especially if we deal Jackson. Say we do this deal with Toronto.... why not pick Roy? If we don't are we going to regret it later?

ChicagoJ
06-12-2006, 01:08 PM
Every single article I read keeps saying that last season Bird was ready to chuck this team.

Maybe that's the spin... "We really were concerned about this team, Larry even spotted it but the players persuaded us to give them one final chance together."

Sounds like revisionist history to me. Aren't they basically admitting they let the inmates run the asylum or that they didn't really believe this enough to "pound the table" and insist that it was the right action.

In this case, I still think actions speak louder than words.

Will says Bird is in charge. Everyone else thinks DW is in charge. But nobody did anything to prevent the problem that Bird now allegedly saw last summer. If that's even true?

These guys have gone from "good liars" to "bad liars".

Kegboy
06-12-2006, 01:15 PM
revisionist history

:ding:

Arcadian
06-12-2006, 01:21 PM
The Pacers understand their situation better, which is why they've been one of the most forward-thinking franchises in the league. Rather than risk going down slowly after making the Finals in 2000, they broke up their team without falling to the bottom and quickly returned to championship contention.

How can the darksiders like an article which has this gem in it?

As far as Smith on Larry being talked to by ownership: it was written inregards to coaching changes.

Edit: I agree with Jay.

Los Angeles
06-12-2006, 01:21 PM
Revisionist history? I doubt it.

Failure to accept full responsibility? Absolutely.

I could give two cares about what anyone WANTED to do but didn't do. I only care that they admit that they failed, that it is their fault more than anyone else's, and that they are working their butts off to fix what's broken.

Bball
06-12-2006, 01:53 PM
OK... so my post was taking a little potshot at our fast as molasses management style BUT I did have a serious point in there.

That point being: Maybe Bird told the Simons (directly or thru DW) that he worried this team would tune Carlisle out and he wanted player changes to make sure that didn't happen. But instead, TPTB told him to wait... be patient... and stick up for coach Carlisle to head off any player mutinies.

IOW... the Simons were saying that if Bird inserted himself (or asserted himself) that the players would respect him enough not to tune Carlisle out... as long as the players knew Carlisle had Bird's endorsement.

I don't think the Sam Smith article has to be taken to mean a coaching change was on Bird's agenda.

-Bball

Kegboy
06-12-2006, 02:10 PM
You know, it finally occurred to me. Alot of the so-called "darksiders" seem to think that once Donnie's gone next year and Larry is "really in charge", everything will be just hunky dory. Doesn't that really make them :sunshine:, and people like Jay and I are the real darksiders for thinking that Larry's just gonna make things worse?

Just an observation. Go :cavs:.

Hicks
06-12-2006, 02:16 PM
I've never really taken you guys seriously on bashing Bird because your bias is out for all to see. :shrug:

ChicagoJ
06-12-2006, 03:17 PM
I've never really taken you guys seriously on bashing Bird because your bias is out for all to see. :shrug:

Bias?

I'm not a fan of his because I consider him a Celtic, and everyone knows I don't like the Green Guys. But I've never said, "He's an idiot because he played for the Celtics."

I have argued that he's an idiot based on neutral or objective reasons/ logic.

Ultimate Frisbee
06-12-2006, 03:26 PM
I so wish that they had blown up the team last summer and built around Ron... ah... dreams.

pizza guy
06-12-2006, 03:57 PM
I so wish that they had blown up the team last summer and built around Ron... ah... dreams.

:banned:

Will Galen
06-12-2006, 04:20 PM
Will says Bird is in charge. Everyone else thinks DW is in charge. But nobody did anything to prevent the problem that Bird now allegedly saw last summer. If that's even true?



All I've ever said is Bird has the last say in picking the players. Obviously other people scout players too and give their opinions. If there is no consensus it's his job to make the final decision. I say he does that, others say Walsh does it.

It now appears that both are working under constraint from the Simon's. That is if you can believe Sam Smith.

Again if Sam is right the Simon's are now giving Larry a free hand.

I guess we are just going to have to wait and see what happens this Summer. If Sam is right he's scooped Peter Vacsey because Peter usually knows what's up with the Pacers.

Then again Peter did tell Hicks in an email that he thought, QUOTE;

"Off the top, purely common sense, I'd say there's every reason to believe Jermaine is exceedingly touchable. Don't believe the No. 1 pick and CV would be nearly enough to get Indy's attention. The draft has no one to make that deal worthwhile."

I think everyone agrees there's no one in the draft to make that deal worthwhile, however Bird might be going the combination route like has been discussed.

For instant, JO for Toronto's CV, the #1, and other considerations. Then trade the #1 for Portland's #4, Jack, and other considerations.

But then we have to remember again Chad Ford started this rumor, and Bird is on record as saying, QUOTE;

"Jermaine O'Neal is the best player on this team," he said. "Every player on this team knows Jermaine's our guy. Are we looking to trade Jermaine? No. I can't sit here today and tell you we're going to pursue to trade Jermaine O'Neal. I don't know who you could trade Jermaine for and get somebody better. It's all going to be speculation. Would I go to Jermaine and say 'I'm 100 percent sure you're not going to get traded?' I can't do that. But he is our guy and we're going to build around him."

Peck
06-12-2006, 07:49 PM
All I've ever said is Bird has the last say in picking the players. Obviously other people scout players too and give their opinions. If there is no consensus it's his job to make the final decision. I say he does that, others say Walsh does it.

It now appears that both are working under constraint from the Simon's. That is if you can believe Sam Smith.

Again if Sam is right the Simon's are now giving Larry a free hand.

I guess we are just going to have to wait and see what happens this Summer. If Sam is right he's scooped Peter Vacsey because Peter usually knows what's up with the Pacers.

Then again Peter did tell Hicks in an email that he thought, QUOTE;

"Off the top, purely common sense, I'd say there's every reason to believe Jermaine is exceedingly touchable. Don't believe the No. 1 pick and CV would be nearly enough to get Indy's attention. The draft has no one to make that deal worthwhile."

I think everyone agrees there's no one in the draft to make that deal worthwhile, however Bird might be going the combination route like has been discussed.

For instant, JO for Toronto's CV, the #1, and other considerations. Then trade the #1 for Portland's #4, Jack, and other considerations.

But then we have to remember again Chad Ford started this rumor, and Bird is on record as saying, QUOTE;

"Jermaine O'Neal is the best player on this team," he said. "Every player on this team knows Jermaine's our guy. Are we looking to trade Jermaine? No. I can't sit here today and tell you we're going to pursue to trade Jermaine O'Neal. I don't know who you could trade Jermaine for and get somebody better. It's all going to be speculation. Would I go to Jermaine and say 'I'm 100 percent sure you're not going to get traded?' I can't do that. But he is our guy and we're going to build around him."

Um, Will.....

Why do you put so much stock into what Bird is saying there at the bottom of your post, yet completley ignore what Bird said in the same interview about what you put in the top of your post that I highlighted?

Here, allow me to cut & paste.

*****************

Q. Is the team's makeup completely up to you now, or is it still a responsibility shared with Donnie Walsh?

A. He's my boss, there's no question about that. I've got to take more responsibility for the way these players (behave). After noticing the fans' frustration, I think it's up to me to take the next step and make sure these guys make the change. If they can't make the change, we've got to make the change. We just can't have that. It's not what this franchise is all about. So I'll have to do more. I probably should've done more last year. I don't like to walk into the middle of the season and sort of discredit Rick. But I know what I have to do and we're going to do it.

**********
--- Edited Follow-Up ---

Bias?

I'm not a fan of his because I consider him a Celtic, and everyone knows I don't like the Green Guys. But I've never said, "He's an idiot because he played for the Celtics."

I have argued that he's an idiot based on neutral or objective reasons/ logic.


How does the last sentence corolate with your first sentence?

In other words how can you be neutral or objective when you just admitted that you don't like him because he was a Celtic?

Look, I hated him as a player. I couldn't stand him or the f'n Celtics & trust me I sit through plenty of games surrounded by Kelly Green. But he's with the Pacers now & I can only hope for the best.

ChicagoJ
06-12-2006, 07:55 PM
I guess we are just going to have to wait and see what happens this Summer. If Sam is right he's scooped Peter Vacsey because Peter usually knows what's up with the Pacers.

Once Peter's high school buddy is no longer involved with the Pacers, I'll be willing to bet that he's never right about them ever again. But until that day, I'd put stock into anything PV says about the blue-and-gold.
--- Edited Follow-Up ---

How does the last sentence corolate with your first sentence?

In other words how can you be neutral or objective when you just admitted that you don't like him because he was a Celtic?

Look, I hated him as a player. I couldn't stand him or the f'n Celtics & trust me I sit through plenty of games surrounded by Kelly Green. But he's with the Pacers now & I can only hope for the best.

I can separate my dislike for LJB, the Celtic, from the objective evidence that he's an idiot.

I hope for the best, but I'm not very confident.

To say I'm biased is infering that I think he's an idiot solely because he was a Green Guy.

Granted, I don't attempt to hide my dislike of him.

If that doesn't convince you, I'll need to pull out the "everybody's biased in some way" argument. :flirt:
--- Edited Follow-Up ---
I don't get this "edited followup" stuff.

Will Galen
06-12-2006, 08:20 PM
Um, Will.....

Why do you put so much stock into what Bird is saying there at the bottom of your post, yet completley ignore what Bird said in the same interview about what you put in the top of your post that I highlighted?

Here, allow me to cut & paste.

*****************

Q. Is the team's makeup completely up to you now, or is it still a responsibility shared with Donnie Walsh?

A. He's my boss, there's no question about that. I've got to take more responsibility for the way these players (behave). After noticing the fans' frustration, I think it's up to me to take the next step and make sure these guys make the change. If they can't make the change, we've got to make the change. We just can't have that. It's not what this franchise is all about. So I'll have to do more. I probably should've done more last year. I don't like to walk into the middle of the season and sort of discredit Rick. But I know what I have to do and we're going to do it.

**********





I think Donnie nixes some players Bird wants, be it for contract reasons or whatever, etc. Bird still picks the players but obviously he can't pick who Donnie or the Simon's don't want.

As an example say Bird likes three players, but Donnie says he can't sign one of them for whatever reason. Bird still picks the player we draft or trade for, but of course he has to go by NBA rules and guild-lines, and also those of Donnie and the Simon's. It's just common sense that you have to abide by certain guild lines whatever your job.

Kegboy
06-12-2006, 08:51 PM
I don't get the bias stuff, either. Unlike Jay, I never even hated Bird cause he was a Celtic. I didn't really care about the Pacers until after he retired. I was fine with him when he was hired. Hell, I was hoping he'd stay on in 2000, even though his coaching bored me to tears. But ever since he came back, he's just been an idiot.

Hicks
06-12-2006, 09:44 PM
All right, let's hear it all. Let's hear all his moments that declared him "idiot" in Jay/Kegboy's respective Universes.

George Foreman
06-12-2006, 10:34 PM
WE NEED BRANDON ROY, NOW!!!!!!

Please?!?!

Kegboy
06-12-2006, 10:49 PM
All right, let's hear it all. Let's hear all his moments that declared him "idiot" in Jay/Kegboy's respective Universes.

Trading your girlfriend. Need I go on?

Peck
06-12-2006, 11:35 PM
Trading your girlfriend. Need I go on?

That was him? You know that for sure?

Bball
06-13-2006, 01:40 AM
That was him? You know that for sure?

All bad things are Bird. All good things are Donnie Walsh.

-Bball

grace
06-13-2006, 01:43 AM
Just an observation. Go :cavs:.

No, Go :bulls:
--- Edited Follow-Up ---

That was him? You know that for sure?

Do you know it wasn't him?

Robertmto
06-13-2006, 01:48 AM
No, Go :bulls:


Go :cavaliers

Your both wrong, Go :wizards:

Arcadian
06-13-2006, 02:14 AM
Larry said that Cro was the best player on the Pacers after he left. He likes Walker's game. He stuck with Ron. He signed Saras letting Davis, JJ go, or save money so they could hire a new coach. Also two of the most questioned Pacer trades in Brad and Al were made.

Who knows what Donnie made him do or believe. But what aside for firing IT has he done to make us think he has done anything?

What I dislike about Larry most is the talk. Calls players milk drinkers then sits on his hand as Pacer fan's have to watch one of the most undisiplined teams this side of Portland. Calls out Rick then gives every intention of keeping him.

If Larry believes these things he should do something about it. If he doesn't have the authority to do anything he should shut up.

bulletproof
06-13-2006, 02:27 AM
All bad things are Bird. All good things are Donnie Walsh.

-Bball

Who thinks that? One person? Jay?

Funny how an article by Sam Smith (of all people) can trigger so much silly speculation about what does or doesn't happen in the front offices.

Peck
06-13-2006, 02:53 AM
Who thinks that? One person? Jay?

Funny how an article by Sam Smith (of all people) can trigger so much silly speculation about what does or doesn't happen in the front offices.


Well, to my credit I used quotes from Bird to speculate on mine. :)

Besides, it's never been a question to me. Walsh is the boss & Bird is his high level employee. He may sign off on anything Larry wants but he does have to sign off on it. It's not Birds ball yet.
--- Edited Follow-Up ---

No, Go :bulls:
--- Edited Follow-Up ---


Do you know it wasn't him?


Nope.

blanket
06-13-2006, 10:00 AM
http://www.journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=6195


A Raptors official made it abundantly clear the team wouldn’t surrender its No. 1 overall pick for Indiana forward Jermaine O’Neal

indytoad
06-13-2006, 10:31 AM
http://www.journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=6195

JO's trade value just keeps getting lower and lower...

IndyToad
Like a bucket of bees

D-BONE
06-13-2006, 10:43 AM
JO's trade value just keeps getting lower and lower...

IndyToad
Like a bucket of bees

Maybe they don't envy shouldering his albatross of a contract.

Bball
06-13-2006, 10:44 AM
JO's trade value just keeps getting lower and lower...

IndyToad
Like a bucket of bees

That happens when your team loses a supposed second banana leaving the court wide open for you to spread your wings and put your stamp on the team... and the team ends up playing better without you. For two seasons in a row...

-Bball
(BTW- The Raptors' comments could be a negotiating ploy... looking for leverage)

ChicagoJ
06-13-2006, 10:50 AM
This is just a theory, but we've seen several things that seemed very out-of-character for DW.

Trading Brad Miller (instead of letting him walk away for nothing.) I still would have no problem if TPTB let Brad go to Denver or Utah without compensation, and I believe DW would've let him. I believe it was Bird that said, "we need to get something in return."

Along that same line, I think it was Bird that insisted on getting "fair value" in return for damaged-goods-Ron during the 2004 offseason. Sure, he was shopped. For Pierce, for McGrady, for Peja. If we had set our sights just slightly lower, maybe we could've avoided the fiascos of the past two seasons. Keeping Ron Artest was not a very DW-like move. Getting the best value one can get and then moving on is more DW-like. I would've been thrilled with an Artest for Posey swap, for example. Many of the rest of you would've *****ed and moaned, but we could've avoided The Brawl and Trade-me Gate and the other crap.

Further, I think Bird's meddling or indeciviseness or ego-driven insistence on value prolonged the trade process this season.

I'm not even going to touch on the Saras decision.

Maybe idiot isn't the right word. But if nothing else he's letting his ego get in the way of good decisions.

I'm not sure I believe that superstar players can make good GMs. His bball IQ is high, on the court and from the bench. I think "role players" may have a better idea of how to actually assemble a team, however.


All bad things are Bird. All good things are Donnie Walsh.

I think I've been far too critical of DW lately for that notion to be ascribed to me. Although there may be some truth to it. :flirt:

Let's be clear, we'd be better off with just Bird and not the tag-team (mis-)management we've got now. But not much. My theory is that DW has actually prevented Bird from a few other mis-steps, especially on the heels of the Saras/ too many PGs fiasco. But that's just a theory.

If DW wasn't a year from retirement, keeping him would be my preference. But its time to move on, from both guys.

Maybe not Kiki. I'm happy to listen to other suggestions.
--- Edited Follow-Up ---

That happens when your team loses a supposed second banana leaving the court wide open for you to spread your wings and put your stamp on the team... and the team ends up playing better without you. For two seasons in a row...

-Bball

They were not better without JO during the brawl season. That's absurd. You may have enjoyed the teamwork and hustle more, but they were not better.

They were better without JO during the past season because Rick did a better job coaching the TEAM during JO's absence, then reverted to a "throw the ball into JO" gameplan when the rest of the team had become a very bad match for JO - only one true perimter player (Peja), nobody capable or willing to get the ball to JO in the paint (forcing him to face the basket), inept players on the weak side allowing easy double (and triple) teams.

None of that is JO's fault. If you're blaming Rick for JO's declining trade value, then okay, I agree.

If Toronto isn't trading for JO then its because they are concerned about whether he and bosh will really compliment each other. If JO is losing weight to play PF, which player is going to sit?

With Coangelo on board, I'd expect the Raptors to start making smart decisions, like that one. They probably can't get a better player for the #1 pick, but they can get a better FIT.

D-BONE
06-13-2006, 10:58 AM
Jay, so essentially JO is without fault in the team's underachievement and the difficult situation in which it now finds itself? I find it hard to believe he is beyond any responsibility. It's a team problem and he is part of the team.

FrenchConnection
06-13-2006, 11:15 AM
With Coangelo on board, I'd expect the Raptors to start making smart decisions, like that one. They probably can't get a better player for the #1 pick, but they can get a better FIT.

Yes, what they need is a 5 that will do the dirty work for Bosh, and Chris Mihm or Andrew Bynum would be a much better fit there. They also need a good shooter at the 2 spot, but that is a different matter all together.

Bball
06-13-2006, 11:47 AM
They were not better without JO during the brawl season. That's absurd. You may have enjoyed the teamwork and hustle more, but they were not better.



Initially... after the brawl... there was a rallying and some heart at play. But reality settled in. We were shorthanded and it showed.

BUT... after JO's injury forced him to the sidelines, and we were no longer so shorthanded, IMHO the team played better ball consistently without him.

I'm willing to listen to arguments that JO has been misused. In fact, I agree. What I don't know is how much of that is JO's own fault. I know both seasons he has said he wanted the team to keep playing the style it was playing while he was out (when he returned). I think the majority of Pacer fans would agree with his assessment. But talk is cheap. It would be nice if the local media asked Bird, DW, Carlisle more incisive questions regarding the change in play when JO returned.

I know people have complained that JO needs to make better decisions with the ball. Perhaps we should be honest and just say "JO frequently makes bad decisions with the ball". Maybe that is what is hurting the flow. Or maybe a bigger issue is Carlisle is too stubborn to open things up and trust his team...

Maybe both Carlisle and JO need to trust the player around them more.

-Bball

Kegboy
06-13-2006, 12:08 PM
When Bird was hired, we were told he was in charge of all basketball-related matters. Now, maybe that was a lie, and he's just Boomer for Adults. But then, maybe it's not, and he actually does perform his job description.

All I know is, ever since Bird was hired, it's been one **** up after another. The best thing I can say is he didn't screw up the drafts where Danny and David fell in his lap.

Lastly, as far as this Simons stuff is concerned, from their track record, it's much more likely for them to fall on the sword and take the blame than it is to involve themselves in the operation of the team.

ChicagoJ
06-13-2006, 02:11 PM
I'm willing to listen to arguments that JO has been misused. In fact, I agree. What I don't know is how much of that is JO's own fault. I know both seasons he has said he wanted the team to keep playing the style it was playing while he was out (when he returned). I think the majority of Pacer fans would agree with his assessment. But talk is cheap. It would be nice if the local media asked Bird, DW, Carlisle more incisive questions regarding the change in play when JO returned.

Unlike coaches/ management, I can't imagine why JO would make those comments ("I've just got to fit in with the way the team is playing right now.") in an insincere way. Besides, the team started reverting to post/ isolation ball BEFORE JO returned. Therefore, I blame Rick.

Aside - D-BONE, I'm happy to blame certain problems on JO - lack of good passes/ decisions from a double-team for example. But not "gameplan" problems.


I know people have complained that JO needs to make better decisions with the ball. Perhaps we should be honest and just say "JO frequently makes bad decisions with the ball". Maybe that is what is hurting the flow. Or maybe a bigger issue is Carlisle is too stubborn to open things up and trust his team...

Maybe both Carlisle and JO need to trust the player around them more.

-Bball

Maybe Carlisle and JO need players around them that are 1) trustworthy and 2) actually compliment JO and the game Rick wants to play.

Do you want to do the list again?

Tinsley - I trust him and you don't (but I agree he's looking for his own shot too often now that he's learned he can score at will)
Fred - Can only be trusted to go right
AJ - Can't be trusted to get the ball to JO in the paint
Saras - Can be trusted to get the ball to JO in the paint, but can't be trusted to do anything else
SJax - can't be trusted
Peja - Okay, Peja fits nicely with JO
Foster - Can't be trusted to hit open shots on offense or help JO out with post defense. Can be trusted to hustle and chase down rebounds.
Croshere - Might be a nice compliment for JO but he's got limitations
Harrision - A great fit with JO but can't be trusted to stay on the court
Granger - Probably a good fit with JO, need to see him play more when JO is also on the court

I've intentionally left out Gill and Pollard. (Am I missing someone? I only count 13 players.)

Bball
03-17-2007, 02:08 PM
Hmmm .... as much as things change.... the more they stay the same.

This thread could almost be re-used this coming summer.

-Bball