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Will Galen
06-07-2006, 03:30 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060607/SPORTS04/606070512/1088

NBA's High-Priced Superstars-Are they worth it?

By Mark Montieth
mark.montieth@indystar.com

In the NBA, it's difficult for general managers to cover up their mistakes.
So how do general managers decide who's deserving?

"You've got to use your research and, if it's your own player, your history," Philadelphia general manager Billy King said. "And even using all that" -- King paused to chuckle -- "you still don't know."

Such is the guessing game general managers play with their livelihood. But it might be instructive that the league's most underachieving team, New York, finished its 23-win season with three max players -- not including Allan Houston, a max player sidelined by a knee injury -- while just three players in the NBA Finals have what can technically be called maximum contracts.

Dallas' Dirk Nowitzki and Keith Van Horn each have one, although Van Horn's was inherited by the Mavericks from a deal he signed with New Jersey in 1999. So does Miami's Shaquille O'Neal, whose five-year, $100 million contract signed last summer personifies the quandary personnel executives face.

The Heat, who lost to Detroit in seven games in the Eastern Conference finals last year, couldn't let him lumber off to another team, taking their title hopes with him. But at 34 and no longer an MVP candidate, he could quickly become an albatross if he decides to continue collecting paychecks until he's 39.

After next season, the Heat will have to award Dwyane Wade a max contract to keep him tethered to South Beach. But if O'Neal's play declines too much and he receives $20 million of their payroll, they'll have little chance to win a title or improve their roster.

Which would mean a few years in a painful state of limbo.

Some NBA general managers yearn for a system more like that of the NFL, where contracts are not guaranteed and players may be cut at any time -- or at least after the first two or three years of a long-term deal. Such a proposal would meet resistance from the players' union and probably lead to a lengthy work stoppage, and nobody in the league is pushing hard for it yet.

In the meantime, the luxury tax, which assesses a dollar-for-dollar tax after a team's payroll surpasses a threshold, has made teams more hesitant to hand out max deals. The tax was a factor in the Pacers' thinking in 2003. They awarded Jermaine O'Neal a max deal but elected not to re-sign Brad Miller when the bidding approached $70 million over seven seasons because of the tax implications.

"When the tax kicked in . . . that seemed to get owners' attention across the league," said Pete Babcock, former general manager in Toronto, Atlanta and Denver.

Yet it hasn't alleviated the pressure to keep young talents. While some players are so good they offer no-brainer decisions for GMs, others fall into a gray area. Their talent and potential might be obvious, but they haven't proved they can lead a team to title contention year after year.

But if only one other team is willing to make a major offer, how do you let them walk?

"Your fans and your media play into it," said Jim Lynam, who was Philadelphia's general manager from 1992-94. "They'll ask, 'How could you lose him?' It's tough for me to look into the camera and say, 'We think he's a good player; we just don't think he's worth this much money.' "

More than ever, general managers are forced to make tough predictions. Which players will view a max contract as an indicator of heightened responsibility and work harder? Who will take it as an indication they have it made, and slack off? Who, for that matter, will stay healthy?

"There's been some great returns on investments and there's been some busts," said former Pacers point guard Mark Jackson, who played 17 seasons before becoming a television commentator.

"Some guys wrap it up when they sign for $20 million and become content. And I've watched guys make a million dollars but play like they make $20 million."

Overpaid employees, of course, can be found in any profession. In the NBA, however, they can cause the unemployment of those who hire them.
"You're going to be wrong sometimes," Jackson said. "You just want to be right way more than wrong. The great GMs are able to do that."
Mad money

A look at the players who have received the maximum salaries allowed under the NBA's collective bargaining agreement, according to realgm.com:

Earning their money

Player Team 2005-06 Skinny
Elton Brand L.A. Clippers $13,152,000 No longer league's most underrated player.
Kobe Bryant L.A. Lakers $15,946,875 Like him or not, he's a force at both ends.
Tim Duncan San Antonio $15,845,156 Primary factor behind three championships.
Kevin Garnett Minnesota $18,000,000 Supreme talent in need of supporting cast.
Allen Iverson Philadelphia $16,453,125 Passion, production can't be debated.
Jason Kidd New Jersey $18,000,000 Once elite, but fading into overpriced status.
Shawn Marion Phoenix $13,770,0004 Perfect fit for Suns' up-tempo system.
Dirk Nowitzki Dallas $13,843,157 Could lead Mavs to first championship.
Shaquille O'Neal Miami $20,000,000 He's fading, and owed $80M next four years.
Paul Pierce Boston $13,843,157 Coming off most productive season.
Michael Redd Milwaukee $12,000,000 Averaged 25.4 pts in first year of max deal.


Jury is still out

Player Team 2005-06 Skinny
Vince Carter New Jersey $13,843,157 Great talent, but something is missing.
Antawn Jamison Washington $13,843,157 Offensive threat, but not a complete player.
Joe Johnson Atlanta $12,000,000 Was major producer on bad Hawks team.
Tracy McGrady Houston $15,694,250 Elite talent, but health is always an issue.
Jermaine O'Neal Pacers $16,425,000 Team's record without him raises questions.
Chris Webber Philadelphia $19,125,000 All-around talent, but past his prime.


Questionable investment

Player Team 2005-06 Skinny
Baron Davis Golden State $13,770,000 Talent is there, but attitude is lacking.
Steve Francis New York $13,770,000 Orlando took off after trading him.
Grant Hill Orlando $15,694,250 Collecting dust from all his injuries.
Stephon Marbury New York $16,453,125 Like Francis, doesn't contribute to winning.
Jalen Rose New York $15,694,250 Traded three times since signing max deal.
Keith Van Horn Dallas $15,694,250 Mavs paying for New Jersey's mistake.
-----

Example of a maximum contract

The maximum salary a player may receive is 105 percent of his previous salary or between 25 percent and 35 percent of that season's salary cap, whichever is greater, with annual raises thereafter. The percentage is based on experience. For example, Player A has fewer than six years' experience and made $5 million last season. The most he could make next season is $12.375 million, which is 25 percent of the new team cap of $49.5 million. (A player with 10 or more years could earn 35 percent of the team's cap.) Player A can get a 10.5 percent raise for each year of the contract if he stayed with the same team. If Player A signed with a new team, his annual raise shrinks to 8 percent per season.

Contracts can cover as many as six years -- seven until last summer's rule change -- and are guaranteed, meaning a bad deal made of misguided exuberance can hinder a franchise's ability to improve for years.

It's the dilemma of the maximum contract. A GM has to give them to keep great or even potentially great players and avoid looking like he's not trying to win a championship. But if he gives one to the wrong player, or the right player becomes too old or too injured to live up to the extreme expectations of a max player . . . well, that's often how ex-GMs are created.

The Indiana Pacers have awarded max contracts to two players, Jalen Rose and Jermaine O'Neal, and have received mixed results. Rose signed a deal for nearly $100 million in the summer of 2000, after he had been the leading scorer on a team that reached the NBA Finals. He failed to mesh with the Pacers' emerging young talent and coach Isiah Thomas and was traded to Chicago in 2002. He's since been traded twice, and with one year left on his deal, could be traded again next season.

O'Neal signed a seven-year, $127 million contract in the summer of 2003. He was one year removed from being named the league's Most Improved Player and had just averaged 22.8 points and 17.5 rebounds in a first-round playoff loss to Boston. He has been named to the Eastern Conference All-Star team every season since then, and has been voted a starter twice. But some fans became disenchanted with him this season, when the Pacers lost in the first round of the playoffs.

Putnam
06-07-2006, 08:21 AM
Heck no, max contracts are not worth it. They don't guarantee that the team will win a majority of its games, let alone a championship. And they don't guarantee that the player will stay healthy to earn his max money.

Anyway, the performance of players making only $6-$10 million is very comparable to that of players making $12 million and over. LeBron James doesn't have a max contract. Gilbert Arenas doesn't have one. And they were both in the top 5 in scoring. Dwayne Wade doesn't have one. Seventeen of the 23 players listed in the article scored over 1,000 points during the past season, but so did 55 other guys making less.

Dallas has Nowitski's max contract and they are in the finals. Miami has O'Neal's max contract and they are in the finals. But there is no logical connection. Both teams have a lot more going for them than fat contracts.


.

Kegboy
06-07-2006, 08:55 AM
Not to pull a Bball here, but does anybody else see something written between the lines with this article? What am I saying, of course, people will. Problem is, I can't really discount it.

Putnam
06-07-2006, 09:08 AM
Not to pull a Bball here, but does anybody else see something written between the lines with this article? What am I saying, of course, people will. Problem is, I can't really discount it.


Help me out, please. Are you saying this may have been written to pave the way for dumping a certain player from the Pacers roster?


.

Since86
06-07-2006, 09:21 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of not resigning a certain player.

Kegboy
06-07-2006, 09:30 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of not resigning a certain player.

Hey, what do you have against Scot Pollard? He needs the money for his hair stylist! Not to mention feeding Sprewell's family.

Since86
06-07-2006, 09:32 AM
No, no.

I was thinking more a long the lines of Freddie. His voice creeps me out.

Ara
06-07-2006, 09:37 AM
LeBron James doesn't have a max contract. Gilbert Arenas doesn't have one. And they were both in the top 5 in scoring. Dwayne Wade doesn't have one.

LeBron and D-Wade are still in their rookie contracts, right? And Gilbert...I dunno :P

Gamble
06-07-2006, 10:00 AM
Not to pull a Bball here, but does anybody else see something written between the lines with this article? What am I saying, of course, people will. Problem is, I can't really discount it.

So your saying we are going to get::cry:

Player Team 2005-06 Skinny
Baron Davis Golden State $13,770,000 Talent is there, but attitude is lacking.
Steve Francis New York $13,770,000 Orlando took off after trading him.
Grant Hill Orlando $15,694,250 Collecting dust from all his injuries.
Stephon Marbury New York $16,453,125 Like Francis, doesn't contribute to winning.
Jalen Rose New York $15,694,250 Traded three times since signing max deal.
Keith Van Horn Dallas $15,694,250 Mavs paying for New Jersey's mistake.

For JO.

Bball
06-07-2006, 10:08 AM
So your saying we are going to get::cry:

Player Team 2005-06 Skinny
Baron Davis Golden State $13,770,000 Talent is there, but attitude is lacking.
Steve Francis New York $13,770,000 Orlando took off after trading him.
Grant Hill Orlando $15,694,250 Collecting dust from all his injuries.
Stephon Marbury New York $16,453,125 Like Francis, doesn't contribute to winning.
Jalen Rose New York $15,694,250 Traded three times since signing max deal.
Keith Van Horn Dallas $15,694,250 Mavs paying for New Jersey's mistake.

For JO.

JO for Rose... 1 year left on Rose's contract. Does anyone really think the Pacers would look to a 3 year plan and clean the slate like that?

-Bball

Gamble
06-07-2006, 10:31 AM
THat would also get rid of our coaching problem as well.
RC couldn't get anything done with that roster and it might even
make him play Harrison.

OTD
06-07-2006, 12:14 PM
I have one question: Who has caused these over paid men? The owners, and then they just jack up the price for a seat, to where the avg. person cannot pay. If they would stop trying to get a player off of other team, running the price up on each other.

beast23
06-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Help me out, please. Are you saying this may have been written to pave the way for dumping a certain player from the Pacers roster?
I kind of wondered the same thing. There have been a number of times in the past where it seems as though the "skids were greased" through a Star article before the axe fell.

Is this coincidence, or is it possible that JO might be traded?

Or, is it possible that they are justifying why Peja might not be re-signed?

As for Freddy, he won't get enough money from anybody to make that much of a difference one way or another.

rm1369
06-07-2006, 12:34 PM
JO for Rose... 1 year left on Rose's contract. Does anyone really think the Pacers would look to a 3 year plan and clean the slate like that?

-Bball

This is from a post I made in another thread:

Indiana Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Jermaine O'Neal
Stephen Jackson
Jamaal Tinsley

Incoming
Jalen Rose (expiring)
Jamal Crawford
Channing Frye
David Lee
#20 Pick
#29 Pick

That gives us only about $25,000,000 million in committed salaries for the 2007 / 08 season (not counting three late draft choices or resigning Peja / Freddie)

AJ / Sarunas
Crawford / Rose
Granger / Rose
Fry / Croshere / Lee
Foster / Harrison
3 late draft picks + possible S & T of Peja and Freddie

Thats ugly, but we would clear our past sins, have some young talent, caproom, and flexibility (with Croshere + Rose expiring contracts).

Even though that team would suck, I'd bet the fans would like it more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously you would like to get better talent or higher draft choices, but I think to do that you will have to take back bad contracts. Golden State has some talent and a higher pick, but I wouldn't want Fishers, Foyles, or etc contracts.

I like JO more than some, but we are dangerously close to being what Minnesotta is - one really good player surrounded by mediocre talent. Our talent (or potential) has gone steadily down hill the last 2-3 years. Unless we want to remain mediocre we have two options IMO - roll the dice with someone elses high priced headache (Steve Francis, etc) or blow it up completly, clear capspace and acquire young talent / picks.

If there is ever a year that the fans will except a poor team it will be this upcoming season. As long as they play hard and there is a longterm plan think it would be excepted. With next year being touted as a deep draft the time is right IMO to start clean.

bulldog
06-07-2006, 12:38 PM
I have one question: Who has caused these over paid men? The owners, and then they just jack up the price for a seat, to where the avg. person cannot pay. If they would stop trying to get a player off of other team, running the price up on each other.

Mmm hmm...and if the Sixers let Iverson walk for free, or if the Heat let Dwayne Wade go, I'm sure their fans will reasonably and calmly argue that although their team will suck, it's worth it since the declining salaries will allow them to get front row seats as Udonis Haslem and the Heat take on Steven Hunter and the 76ers.

bulldog
06-07-2006, 12:39 PM
This is from a post I made in another thread:

Indiana Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Jermaine O'Neal
Stephen Jackson
Jamaal Tinsley

Incoming
Jalen Rose (expiring)
Jamal Crawford
Channing Frye
David Lee
#20 Pick
#29 Pick


:2tup:

beast23
06-07-2006, 12:50 PM
It has been said that any trade that brings Bonzi Wells to the Pacers would be unwelcome and one of the worst trades in Pacers history.

Let me be about the 647th person to say that this is also true of bringing Jalen Rose back.

I've been a fan since the Pacers first ABA season and have attended hundreds, maybe even a thousand games. You want to lose me totally as a fan for a year, Jalen Rose would be the way to do it. And I'm certain that there are a lot of season ticket holders that feel the same.

rm1369
06-07-2006, 12:53 PM
It has been said that any trade that brings Bonzi Wells to the Pacers would be unwelcome and one of the worst trades in Pacers history.

Let me be about the 647th person to say that this is also true of bringing Jalen Rose back.

I've been a fan since the Pacers first ABA season and have attended hundreds, maybe even a thousand games. You want to lose me totally as a fan for a year, Jalen Rose would be the way to do it. And I'm certain that there are a lot of season ticket holders that feel the same.

The idea isn't to bring Jalen back, it's to bring Jalen's expiring contract back. Cut him if you like - it may even be theraputic!

PacerMan
06-07-2006, 01:03 PM
JO for Rose... 1 year left on Rose's contract. Does anyone really think the Pacers would look to a 3 year plan and clean the slate like that?

-Bball


LOL


No.

beast23
06-07-2006, 01:09 PM
The idea isn't to bring Jalen back, it's to bring Jalen's expiring contract back. Cut him if you like - it may even be theraputic!Then let me go ahead and comment on the whole trade.
Jalen Rose - I've made myself clear.
Channing Frye - A young player who will likely be an All-Star some day.
David Lee - A young player with promise, but needs a lot of development.
#20 & #29 - Useless in this year's weak draft.

That leaves Crawford. Crawford is a a decent PG, but is an inadequate defender. He's not what we need at all in the backcourt. We could use a PG that is a distributor in place of Tinsley, but we absolutely must have someone capable of stopping dribble penetration.

This trade may very well free up cap space at the end of the coming season. But it straps us with a long-term contract for another PG that is still inadequate with respect to our needs. I would prefer AJ starting over Crawford because he is able to prevent at least half of the PGs from getting into the lane; Crawford can't do that.

The trade gets rid of the two knuckleheads, and it gets rid of the problem (if indeed there is one) of this team existing with JO's self proclamation of being the "team leader".

But it also trades the assets that we would like to see traded without really solving any of our problems.

Any trade with the Knicks will require multiple trading partners. Otherwise, we do get Frye for JO, but we also get stuck with a lot of other crap, too.

And, as far as I'm concerned, any trade for JO should net us a lot more down the road than just what amounts to a 1-for-1 trade for Channing Frye.

Putnam
06-07-2006, 01:10 PM
If there is ever a year that the fans will [EDIT: accept] a poor team it will be this upcoming season. As long as they play hard and there is a longterm plan think it would be [EDIT: accepted].



I agree with this. The fat payroll and the brawl stigma really bother me, so I'd love a clean sweep. I'd love a youth movement. I'd love a deliberate break with the past. It isn't something Donnie Walsh is likely to do, but RM1369 is right: if there's ever a time to do it, it would be now.


.

Mourning
06-07-2006, 01:45 PM
This is from a post I made in another thread:

Indiana Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Jermaine O'Neal
Stephen Jackson
Jamaal Tinsley

Incoming
Jalen Rose (expiring)
Jamal Crawford
Channing Frye
David Lee
#20 Pick
#29 Pick

That gives us only about $25,000,000 million in committed salaries for the 2007 / 08 season (not counting three late draft choices or resigning Peja / Freddie)

AJ / Sarunas
Crawford / Rose
Granger / Rose
Fry / Croshere / Lee
Foster / Harrison
3 late draft picks + possible S & T of Peja and Freddie

Thats ugly, but we would clear our past sins, have some young talent, caproom, and flexibility (with Croshere + Rose expiring contracts).

Even though that team would suck, I'd bet the fans would like it more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously you would like to get better talent or higher draft choices, but I think to do that you will have to take back bad contracts. Golden State has some talent and a higher pick, but I wouldn't want Fishers, Foyles, or etc contracts.

I like JO more than some, but we are dangerously close to being what Minnesotta is - one really good player surrounded by mediocre talent. Our talent (or potential) has gone steadily down hill the last 2-3 years. Unless we want to remain mediocre we have two options IMO - roll the dice with someone elses high priced headache (Steve Francis, etc) or blow it up completly, clear capspace and acquire young talent / picks.

If there is ever a year that the fans will except a poor team it will be this upcoming season. As long as they play hard and there is a longterm plan think it would be excepted. With next year being touted as a deep draft the time is right IMO to start clean.

I very much agree to what you wrote here and the trade looks interesting atleast. I especially agreed about what you wrote concerning declining talent. Sure, we got Danny last year, but look at what we lost the past 3 years.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

beast23
06-07-2006, 01:50 PM
I agree with this. The fat payroll and the brawl stigma really bother me, so I'd love a clean sweep. I'd love a youth movement. I'd love a deliberate break with the past. It isn't something Donnie Walsh is likely to do, but RM1369 is right: if there's ever a time to do it, it would be now.
I would agree that if it is to ever be done, this year would be the right year to do it.

BUT... I totally disagree with any opinion that would state that the fans would be accepting of a total decline in the success of the team. I think that would prove to be catostrophic with respect to their fan base.

However, I do believe that the fans would accept having as few as 3-4 carryovers going into next season, as long as the team experienced reasonable success during the season. Perhaps .500 ball or thereabouts.

Jon Theodore
06-07-2006, 02:04 PM
No, no.

I was thinking more a long the lines of Freddie. His voice creeps me out.

I'm glad im not the only one, his voice is insane. He cant be human. He sounds like a duck.

ChicagoJ
06-07-2006, 02:13 PM
I like Jalen. :shrug:

rexnom
06-07-2006, 02:21 PM
I'm glad im not the only one, his voice is insane. He cant be human. He sounds like a duck.
I love it. Whenever someone I know is a Pacer fan asks me how I'm doing I always respond in my best Freddie Voice and say:

"Ah, you know, I'm trying my best, you know, just giving it my 110%, you know, my all, you know, doing whatever I can to help."

I love him. I'll be disappointed if he leaves.

JayRedd
06-07-2006, 02:23 PM
I like Jalen. :shrug:

Yeah...my 2nd favorite Pacer of all time...Why is it people don't like the guy that brought us to the Finals anymore?

317Kim
06-07-2006, 02:26 PM
I love it. Whenever someone I know is a Pacer fan asks me how I'm doing I always respond in my best Freddie Voice and say:

"Ah, you know, I'm trying my best, you know, just giving it my 110%, you know, my all, you know, doing whatever I can to help."

I love him. I'll be disappointed if he leaves.

Me too. :sadyes:

Slick Pinkham
06-07-2006, 02:32 PM
How many NBA champions in the past 20 years have not had a maximum salaried player?

Only Detroit?

So you can

1) pay the max to the RIGHT superstar, i.e. a legit top 5 player who stays healthy and doesn't get too old immediately

or

2) assemble 5 all-star or near all-star caliber players that play great defense and never ever get hurt, and get Larry Brown to coach them.

Slick Pinkham
06-07-2006, 02:34 PM
No, no.

I was thinking more a long the lines of Freddie. His voice creeps me out.

Avery's Johnson's voice must send you running from the room screaming.

ChicagoJ
06-07-2006, 02:38 PM
Yeah...my 2nd favorite Pacer of all time...Why is it people don't like the guy that brought us to the Finals anymore?

Jalen is despised on this forum. I've heard the reasons why, but its stuff I never saw when he was with the team and that's when I was living in Indy and attending most the games, so I didn't bother with the whole internet fan-forum stuff.

Most of the posters on here think that Stephen Jackson is just a re-incarnation of Jalen. I disagree, but I got lonely arguing the point. I never had a problem with Jalen's shot selection, for example, because I always viewed him as the team's #1 option so it was his job to create shots for himself.

To hear these guys discuss it, you'd think that the team got to The Finals in spite of Jalen, when his emergence was in fact the #1 reason they finally did make The Finals and Reggie could finally be in his best role - as the second option who still got to take all the big shots in crunch time.

Oh well, I'll probably get shouted down on this topic by about 390,741 posts in the next 18 seconds.

btowncolt
06-07-2006, 02:41 PM
Oh well, I'll probably get shouted down on this topic by about 390,741 posts in the next 18 seconds.

Must be hard to type with your hands firmly nailed to that cross.........




:flirt: I keed becasue I care...

rm1369
06-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Then let me go ahead and comment on the whole trade.
Jalen Rose - I've made myself clear.
Channing Frye - A young player who will likely be an All-Star some day.
David Lee - A young player with promise, but needs a lot of development.
#20 & #29 - Useless in this year's weak draft.

That leaves Crawford. Crawford is a a decent PG, but is an inadequate defender. He's not what we need at all in the backcourt. We could use a PG that is a distributor in place of Tinsley, but we absolutely must have someone capable of stopping dribble penetration.

This trade may very well free up cap space at the end of the coming season. But it straps us with a long-term contract for another PG that is still inadequate with respect to our needs. I would prefer AJ starting over Crawford because he is able to prevent at least half of the PGs from getting into the lane; Crawford can't do that.

The trade gets rid of the two knuckleheads, and it gets rid of the problem (if indeed there is one) of this team existing with JO's self proclamation of being the "team leader".

But it also trades the assets that we would like to see traded without really solving any of our problems.

Any trade with the Knicks will require multiple trading partners. Otherwise, we do get Frye for JO, but we also get stuck with a lot of other crap, too.

And, as far as I'm concerned, any trade for JO should net us a lot more down the road than just what amounts to a 1-for-1 trade for Channing Frye.


The draft picks are not great, but they would give us ammo to move up in the draft or the oppurtunity to take a couple chances. Farmer, Lowry, Fernandez, Boone, and J White are all players they could be available that people on this board have expressed an interest in. If Splitter remains in the draft it is possible he would be available at 17 and that would still allow us to address other needs (PG) later. He has a huge buyout and would most likely not play in the NBA next year. If the Pacers don't try to rebuild they will need to take a solid (but low ceiling) guy at 17, IMO. Obviously most late picks don't pan out, but there are plenty of players that do, especially if you can roll the dice a little.

I view Crawford as a 2 not a PG. He is not a world beater but I think he is a talented player. The light bulb has seemed to gone on in his head. Larry Brown praised him several times during the season, IIRC. (They could have been digs at Starbury though)

The key for me is that I do not see what SJax and JT are going to net us that will make us better than a top 8-12 team next year. Unless we roll the dice with someone elses problems. If we do that and it fails can you imagine the reaction of the fans - seeing a new headcase with the same results?

Slick Pinkham
06-07-2006, 03:14 PM
Splitter pulled out of the draft, announced yesterday I think

brs14ku
06-07-2006, 04:32 PM
It has been said that any trade that brings Bonzi Wells to the Pacers would be unwelcome and one of the worst trades in Pacers history.

Let me be about the 647th person to say that this is also true of bringing Jalen Rose back.

I've been a fan since the Pacers first ABA season and have attended hundreds, maybe even a thousand games. You want to lose me totally as a fan for a year, Jalen Rose would be the way to do it. And I'm certain that there are a lot of season ticket holders that feel the same.

You must be a pretty hardcore fan to give up on years of loyalty because a guy that previously took your team to the Finals would come back for a year to make for a better team in two or three years.:rolleyes:

rm1369
06-07-2006, 04:34 PM
Splitter pulled out of the draft, announced yesterday I think

An article on hoopshype today quotes him as saying he was still undecided.

rexnom
06-07-2006, 05:37 PM
I like Jalen, always did, but then again, in those days it was OK to be a Pacer and not play D.

If we are going to rebuild...that trade is certainly one way of doing it. Probably the best way. Picks, cap space, a solid young player in Lee, and a future all-star (more than likely) in Frye. But if we pull a trade like that, we have to let Peja go as well.

Sollozzo
06-07-2006, 05:38 PM
Jalen is despised on this forum. I've heard the reasons why, but its stuff I never saw when he was with the team and that's when I was living in Indy and attending most the games, so I didn't bother with the whole internet fan-forum stuff.

Most of the posters on here think that Stephen Jackson is just a re-incarnation of Jalen. I disagree, but I got lonely arguing the point. I never had a problem with Jalen's shot selection, for example, because I always viewed him as the team's #1 option so it was his job to create shots for himself.

To hear these guys discuss it, you'd think that the team got to The Finals in spite of Jalen, when his emergence was in fact the #1 reason they finally did make The Finals and Reggie could finally be in his best role - as the second option who still got to take all the big shots in crunch time.

Oh well, I'll probably get shouted down on this topic by about 390,741 posts in the next 18 seconds.


I agree with that 100%, but I wouldn't really call Reggie the "second option", though Jalen did average a fraction of a point more PPG in the regular season. I think they were equal options.

The team could never make it to the finals when Reggie was the sole number one scoring option. In 2000, the team had what it never had before, a legitimate second scorer. The previous 2 years when teh Bulls and the Knicks eliminated the Pacers, Jalen was still coming off of the bench.

I've never understood why Jalen is so hated on these forums either. You've aluded to it before Jay when you have brought up that Indy fans like a Dale Davis type of player. Someone who has to work his *** off for everything he does on the court. Someone who isn't a "finese" type of talent. Reggie was a player like that too. Reggie definitely wasn't the most skilled player, but he had to work hard.

Basketball comes easy to Jalen. Indy fans don't really like a player like that.

If there's no second scorer in 2000, the Pacers don't get to the finals. There is no way Reggie could have taken the scoring load alone.

Bball
06-07-2006, 05:49 PM
Has Jalen's dream of being a PG died yet?

-Bball

Anthem
06-07-2006, 06:35 PM
Has Jalen's dream of being a PG died yet?
Has he stopped referring to himself in the third person?

Bball
06-07-2006, 06:55 PM
Has he stopped referring to himself in the third person?

Bball doesn't know.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
06-07-2006, 06:57 PM
I think Jalen still refers to Jalen in the third person.

rexnom
06-07-2006, 07:17 PM
Has he stopped referring to himself in the third person?
I sure hope not.

Anthem
06-07-2006, 07:23 PM
Bball doesn't know.
What Anthem always hated about Rose was that Rose always claimed that Rose got a bad deal... that he was lied to, that he wasn't given the opportunity to succeed, whatever. It also drove Anthem crazy that Rose apparently held a grudge at Reggie for being loved by Indy in a way that Rose wasn't... years later we were still hearing about how upset he was that the crowd chanted "Reggie Reggie" when both Rose and Reggie got 40 points against the Bucks.

ChicagoJ
06-07-2006, 09:37 PM
Of course, I didn't like that either, and I was chanting "Ja-len! Ja-len!"

I guess I was the only one (or the only one that still admits it.) :shrug:

Unclebuck
06-07-2006, 10:38 PM
Jalen, Jalen, Jalen. What is there to really say about him. He was a very nice guy off the court, great in the community, never caused any problems off the court to my knowledge.

The man could score, he was streaky and he scored in bunches, when the team was going well Jalen was great. When the Pacers played a great game, Jalen was front and center. Jalen was a great frontrunner, and he was great at scoring when the Pacers were down by 20 points in the 4th quarter. But within a close game when the Pacers really needed scoring and consistant scoring throughout a game, Jalen was too often no where to be found.

Defensively, Jalen was an embarassment, - he had the talent and capability to be a pretty good defender, but he rarely, rarely ever played defense.

Jalen and JO also did not get along, and it was pretty common knowledge that JO wasn't going to re-sign if Jalen was still here. Jalen was also jealous of Reggie, my inside source, (back when I had one) would say that everytime the crowd chanting R-E-G-G-I-E, Jalen hated it, he wanted the crowd to chant his name.

Just my two cents, 5 years removed

Kegboy
06-07-2006, 11:28 PM
Jalen really doesn't seem that bad, after all the **** we've been through. At least he was only bipolar while on the court.

I'll leave the good Jalen/bad Jalen dissertation for Grace.

ChicagoJ
06-08-2006, 12:39 AM
You call him a frontrunner but when he played well the Pacers won. And when he didn't, they lost.

And they won a pretty high % during the Bird years, so I'd say he played pretty well.

beast23
06-08-2006, 12:44 AM
...Defensively, Jalen was an embarassment, - he had the talent and capability to be a pretty good defender, but he rarely, rarely ever played defense.

Jalen and JO also did not get along, and it was pretty common knowledge that JO wasn't going to re-sign if Jalen was still here. Jalen was also jealous of Reggie, my inside source, (back when I had one) would say that everytime the crowd chanting R-E-G-G-I-E, Jalen hated it, he wanted the crowd to chant his name.

Just my two cents, 5 years removedDefense. Just the words Jalen and defense used together brings back memories of a lot of angry moments for me when Jalen was a Pacer.

Jalen was not only a pretty good defender, he absolutely locked down Jordan for key stretches of a couple of games we played against the Bulls. "Pretty good defender"? He was (and probably still is) a "DAMN GOOD defender", but only when he felt like it. And there is one of my sources of anger. Someone with all that talent at the defensive end of the court and, other than a quarter here and there, has absolutely refused to use it throughout his career.

My other source of anger is that Jalen couldn't keep his mouth shut and just play the game. A defender breathed on him without a call, and that was an absolute guarantee that he would not be playing defense on the changeover because he was going to be jacking his jaw at the trailing official. I don't know it as fact, but I wouldn't doubt that there were games where the opposition scored more points off of Jalen not getting back than they did for the game at the free throw line.

So, there you have it. I want know part of Jalen Rose because I don't believe he is a good teammate, he doesn't play hard at all times and consequently, he cannot be trusted on the court.

A couple of the exact same problems I have with Jackson.

As far as the Reggie chant goes, I think I even remember reading something about that when the fans were chanting for Reggie in the final seconds of the playoff game in 2000 where Jalen and Reggie both scored 40 or more.

Ron who?
06-08-2006, 10:12 PM
plain and simple why the fans chanted for Reggie and Jalen because Reggie is god and would smite them had they not :worship: