PDA

View Full Version : Stern fed up with complaints about refs



Will Galen
06-05-2006, 07:55 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-0606050084jun05,1,904892.column?coll=cs-bulls-utility


Stern fed up with complaints about refs

BY SAM SMITH
Chicago Tribune

It's spring, which means planting flowers, playing golf and, if you're an NBA player or coach, complaining about officiating.

There has been quite a bit of that in these playoffs, and it didn't help when the NBA rescinded a technical against Michael Finley from San Antonio's overtime game against Dallas. As their series wound down, the Suns and Mavs were sending dueling complaints to the league office about the other's alleged cheap shots and dirty play.

NBA Commissioner David Stern said he has had about enough. He believes the actions of the players and coaches trickle down to the fans and cast doubt on the game. He has quietly told the players and coaches to button it.

"We've sort of delivered the message to the coaches," Stern said. "(When) a coach loses a game because a call went the wrong way, I'm never going to say you can't let off some steam.

"When we started the season we said, `Let's tell the assistant coaches they don't have a lot to add to the dialogue with the officials,'" Stern said. "Next season's project will be to persuade the players. Since I've been commissioner there have probably been 35,000 calls a season times 22, and the next call that gets overturned because a player complained will be the first. So it's not a productive enterprise."

But if the NBA really wants to help the officials, it could do something about the block/charge, which remains the call most frequently questioned. So many players are flopping, you wonder if the "skill" is taught before dribbling in Europe.

The league installed the small circle under the basket as a restricted zone where a player cannot draw a change. But the best way to end the bogus practice is to stop calling so many charges. A charge should be called only when a defender plays good defense and moves his feet and still gets run over by the player he is guarding.

Even though zones are allowed now, hardly anyone plays them for more than a few minutes. Sliding over to get in front of a driver is hardly good defense. It's a trick, and it's time the NBA recognized that.

KNICKS' SOAP OPERA

"Dead man walking" was Larry Brown's description last week of his amazing situation in New York, where a classic game of chicken goes on. The Knicks want Brown to quit so they don't have to pay him the $40 million he is owed for four more years. Brown wants it. So Brown's bosses are not talking to him as he works out draft prospects. They hope Brown will violate his contract by not showing up at the predraft camp this week. Others say Brown will go to the camp to network for another job.

Only a year ago New York reporters were staking out Brown's Long Island home and getting comments from him about becoming Knicks coach to save the franchise. Now they're yelling questions in a similarly surreal scene as Brown leaves the Knicks' training facility each day. Police were called one day to keep the reporters back.

They now huddle on a traffic island near the facility. Last week, they watched as Brown's and general manager Isiah Thomas' cars nearly collided in the rain as the two sought to avoid the media. Typical of the Knicks' situation, they missed.

Reporters then followed Knicks owner James Dolan when he played with his band, JD and Straight Shot, at a New York club. Knicks staffers attended to keep reporters away from Dolan.

NO DOUBTING THOMAS

It wasn't a great conference finals finish for Tim Thomas, who fouled out with eight points trying to guard Dirk Nowitzki after Nowitzki had 50 in Game 5. But Thomas had a remarkable playoff run, averaging 14.7 points and shooting 50 percent overall against the Mavs and 52 percent on threes.

"Getting Tim Thomas was a stroke of luck," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said. "Getting him when Kurt (Thomas) went down saved the season. . . . without him we couldn't have done all this."

But again, Thomas would not have worked so well with the Bulls. They could not have gotten anything for him without giving up almost all their salary-cap room because they would have had to take on $14 million in contracts.

"His body," D'Antoni said, "is kind of that slow-twitch kind of thing where you think sometimes he's really not putting out all the effort." Even though he was the tallest Sun on the court, the 6-foot-10-inch Thomas averaged only 4.6 rebounds against the Mavs as the Suns positioned him to shoot three-pointers.

Suns owner Robert Sarver, meanwhile, may have been a little premature in declaring that former GM Bryan Colangelo would not get a ring if the Suns won the NBA title. They were tied 2-2 with Dallas in the Western Conference finals at the time and didn't win another game.

"Bryan doesn't work for the organization, so it wouldn't seem to make sense," Sarver said.

He was saved from that delicate issue with the Mavs' win.

WEB OF TRUTH?

The Nuggets and George Karl said Karl was misquoted in suggesting he will take over team personnel with Kiki Vandeweghe gone. The Nuggets' Web site is pressing the issue, recently posting this: "A word to the wise, Nuggets fans: Don't believe everything you read in the paper, see on television or hear on talk radio."

The message claimed certain reporters "will deliberately refuse to report the facts" and went on to cite situations with two unnamed columnists. One refused to meet with team officials to clear up alleged misconceptions and another refused to identify a source when the Nuggets asked, violating, according to the site, "the No. 1 rule of journalism."

Only on the site can fans be assured of getting the Nuggets' side of the story, it declared, and it will act as a journalism review for the benefit of fans.

The Denver Post, meanwhile, talked to Shawn Kemp, who said he is trying to return to the NBA and would like to rejoin Karl, his coach in Seattle.

1 LESS SHAQ-HACKER

Not that it should alter the series, but the Mavs lose six fouls to go against Shaquille O'Neal for four games with DJ Mbenga's suspension for going into the stands. Mbenga was not in uniform, and Mavs reserve Darrell Armstrong said he told Mbenga to go into the stands to help coach Avery Johnson's wife, who was in a dispute with fans after asking them to sit down. Johnson apparently suspended his wife for one game because she didn't attend Game 6 in Phoenix.

SHORTER STORY

In another installment of Amazing Atlanta Hawks tales, general manager Billy Knight told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution he wouldn't rule out drafting still another 6-8 swingman.

"I always take talent," Knight said. "I like good basketball players, and there are a lot of 6-foot-8 players in the draft. And 6-foot-8 is the ideal size."

Knight has an ally in 76ers GM Billy King. "I'd like to get two more 6-6 or 6-8 athletes," King said. "In watching the playoffs, you watch Dwyane Wade, you watch LeBron (James), you watch Shawn Marion - you need more athletic 6-6, 6-8 guys. A lot more teams are going small, playing a 6-8 small forward at the power forward position."

DOUBLE DRIBBLES

Eric Musselman takes over in Sacramento after the Kings talked with WNBA coach John Whisenant and Golden State assistant Mario Elie . . . Another assistant's name starting to gain notice with Dallas' run to the Finals is Rolando Blackman. . . . Karl Malone is easing back into the NBA. He worked with the Jazz in analyzing draft prospects last week and said he was contacted by the Hornets before Hurricane Katrina about perhaps working for them back home in Louisiana.

Stanford's Danny Grunfeld, son of former Knicks GM Ernie, worked out for the Knicks and hopes to be a second-round pick. . . . Former Bull Jay Williams worked out for the Raptors and is expected to work out for the 76ers and Cavs. Scouts said he didn't seem to be as explosive as he was, but it's an amazing comeback. The first word the Bulls heard after his 2003 motorcycle accident was his leg would be amputated.

Little-used center Kelvin Cato is a free agent and mentioned the Bulls as a team he believes he can help. The Pistons "just never really had any confidence to use me," Cato said. . . . One of Pat Riley's playoff motivational efforts was taping Yogi Berra quotes to players' lockers. Udonis Haslem never heard of Berra and told reporters Riley gave them Yogi Bear quotes. . . . Byron Scott is selling his New Orleans house and has a home now in Oklahoma City. Scott said it was just a good time to sell with market conditions.

Antonio McDyess, the only Detroit core player without a championship ring, took it hard when the Pistons lost to Miami in the Eastern finals. "This feels like the end," he said. "It doesn't feel like I'm ever going to come close to that ring again. It seems like I had the best chance of winning it last year. And now it seems like it faded away, and I don't think it'll ever come back."
----------

I would like to see them call a charge when a player backs in and bumps the defender with his butt.

Jose Slaughter
06-05-2006, 08:18 AM
They should call a T or a personal foul on any player that flops.

Fool
06-05-2006, 10:15 AM
First the perimeter defense changes, next year no complaining to the refs, by 08-09 I expect a "no teams allowed to represent Detroit" rule. :)

Slick Pinkham
06-05-2006, 10:29 AM
I think that refs should T up anyone who yells and curses at them.

Player moaning and griping is out of control to to point that coaches and players who DON'T COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME can be viewed as wimps not aggressively pursuing all the advantages possible.

Unsportsmanlike conduct should result in a technical. After a few weeks I think the message would settle in, after Rasheed gets 20 technicals in 10 games.

Anybody else old enough to remember when you would get a technical if you didn't hold your arm up after you were called for a foul, at least in college and high school? There used to be an expectation of sportsmanlike behavior.

JayRedd
06-05-2006, 10:56 AM
But if the NBA really wants to help the officials, it could do something about the block/charge, which remains the call most frequently questioned. So many players are flopping, you wonder if the "skill" is taught before dribbling in Europe.

The league installed the small circle under the basket as a restricted zone where a player cannot draw a change. But the best way to end the bogus practice is to stop calling so many charges. A charge should be called only when a defender plays good defense and moves his feet and still gets run over by the player he is guarding.

Even though zones are allowed now, hardly anyone plays them for more than a few minutes. Sliding over to get in front of a driver is hardly good defense. It's a trick, and it's time the NBA recognized that.



This makes me angrier than anything. The amount of charge calls in a game has really gotten out of hand. In the Miami/Detroit series, Dwyane Wade must've been called for at least two a game just because Lindsey Hunter would take a slide step and then fall when Wade dribbled that way.

It happens constantly across the league on the perimeter and it's not good defense. Most people think it is, but like Smith says, it's basically a trick, and the refs need to stop encouraging it. These defenders are not getting knocked down by the contact. They just fall on their own and it has very little to do with anything the ball-handler is doing.

indygeezer
06-05-2006, 11:00 AM
I think that refs should T up anyone who yells and curses at them.

Player moaning and griping is out of control to to point that coaches and players who DON'T COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME can be viewed as wimps not aggressively pursuing all the advantages possible.

Unsportsmanlike conduct should result in a technical. After a few weeks I think the message would settle in, after Rasheed gets 20 technicals in 10 games.

Anybody else old enough to remember when you would get a technical if you didn't hold your arm up after you were called for a foul, at least in college and high school? There used to be an expectation of sportsmanlike behavior.



oo oooo I remember that rule.


I remember a family of boys (Hancock County) back in the 60's that played for a rival team. They were known for driving the lane, slapping their thigh, and falling to the floor. They were considered "dirty" players and were so hated people would boo them at the filling station. I can still see their smirk.

Fool
06-05-2006, 11:05 AM
oo oooo I remember that rule.


I remember a family of boys (Hancock County) back in the 60's that played for a rival team. They were known for driving the lane, slapping their thigh, and falling to the floor. They were considered "dirty" players and were so hated people would boo them at the filling station. I can still see their smirk.

NBA shorts were lengthened to stop this very tactic. :-p

Jermaniac
06-05-2006, 11:15 AM
He should fix how the refs call these games and then he wont get complaints.

Slick Pinkham
06-05-2006, 11:48 AM
He should fix how the refs call these games and then he wont get complaints.

Bull.

Every ref gets complaints on every judgement call, whether it is called right or wrong. They even get complaints on the completely obvious calls.

indygeezer
06-05-2006, 12:19 PM
He should fix how the refs call these games and then he wont get complaints.


I always did think the refs "fixed" the calls anyway...might as well make it legal.

Knucklehead Warrior
06-05-2006, 12:28 PM
Anybody else old enough to remember when you would get a technical if you didn't hold your arm up after you were called for a foul, at least in college and high school? There used to be an expectation of sportsmanlike behavior.

Ahhh yes. You mean the good ole days. Back when basketball was played, but now enough people (even some PD members) want flash and in-your-face and chest thumping and yes even knuckleheadedness, that basketball is more like the WWF or WWE or whatever the :censored: they are. Sportsmanlike behavior? WTF is that? Must be talking about the PGA.

This is something of Herr Schtern's that I can latch onto and celebrate. Any questions Jax2? Ask after the game.

What if bball was played like golf? "Hey could I get an official over here? I need a ruling. I was driving the lane, Lindsay Hunter parked outside the arc and I believe I might have charged. Whose ball is it?" :laugh:

indygeezer
06-05-2006, 01:00 PM
Ahhh yes. You mean the good ole days. Back when basketball was played, but now enough people (even some PD members) want flash and in-your-face and chest thumping and yes even knuckleheadedness, that basketball is more like the WWF or WWE or whatever the :censored: they are. Sportsmanlike behavior? WTF is that? Must be talking about the PGA.

This is something of Herr Schtern's that I can latch onto and celebrate. Any questions Jax2? Ask after the game.

What if bball was played like golf? "Hey could I get an official over here? I need a ruling. I was driving the lane, Lindsay Hunter parked outside the arc and I believe I might have charged. Whose ball is it?" :laugh:


and tennis used to be the same way.


Then came TV and the big $.



But it also brought us Live games instead of taped delay. It brought us Bird and Magic...it brought us Ivy and Ron, uh, waitaminute...

Hicks
06-05-2006, 03:26 PM
I think they should make the rule that only the head coach and 1 designated player can talk to the refs at all during the game. If someone else tries to, they get 1 warning, and then the team gets a T every time afterward. Either the team, or the player himself (meaning he's tossed for doing it twice, or getting one in-game T and one ref-T). The NBA badly needs to end what's happening right now. Too much jaw-flapping, to much yelling at the refs while not getting back on D (Hello Stephen Jackson), too much whining, too many drama queens after tough or bad calls (Hello Rasheed "Do A Little Dance" Wallace), and so forth. It needs to end. It's embarassing.

indygeezer
06-05-2006, 03:32 PM
NBA shorts were lengthened to stop this very tactic. :-p


Gee and I thought it was the Fab-five that brought koolots to the NBA.

beast23
06-05-2006, 03:57 PM
You want to control the b!tching, then Stern should tell the refs to T-up not the offending player, but instead the team's best player on the floor. Trust me, coaches and fellow players will get the player to shut up very quickly.

I coached soccer, basketball and baseball for years. I never had a problem with a parent because my rule was that each parent keep his/her mouth shut regarding heckling of opposing players or their son would sit the bench.

But I also officiated a lot of soccer. I always warned coaches before the game that I wouldn't stand for them constantly complaing or trashing opposing players. And if I had problems with the coach during the game, I would find an excuse to very quickly give a yellow card to either one of his captains or his best player. As I gave the yellow card, I then would instruct the player that play wouldn't restart for several seconds, and he was to go toward the sideline and let his coach know to keep his mouth shut, or I would soon be issuing a red card to the player.

There were a few coaches that didn't care for me, I must admit. But I didn't have problems with coaches. And for the most part, their fans also learned to give positive encouragement toward their own players, rather than yelling at opposing players.

Stern has to do something, because fines don't really mean a thing to any of the players other than maybe a handful of minimum-salary players. However, you T-up the best player of a team twice and he's sitting the bench, I'd be willing to bet the coach and team will quickly learn to keep their mouths shut.

Lord Helmet
06-05-2006, 04:46 PM
I think they should make the rule that only the head coach and 1 designated player can talk to the refs at all during the game. If someone else tries to, they get 1 warning, and then the team gets a T every time afterward. Either the team, or the player himself (meaning he's tossed for doing it twice, or getting one in-game T and one ref-T). The NBA badly needs to end what's happening right now. Too much jaw-flapping, to much yelling at the refs while not getting back on D (Hello Stephen Jackson), too much whining, too many drama queens after tough or bad calls (Hello Rasheed "Do A Little Dance" Wallace), and so forth. It needs to end. It's embarassing.
I agree.

Too bad it probably won't happen.

Hicks
06-05-2006, 04:51 PM
beast23, I love your idea. The rule could stand that the referee chooses which player gets the T, and is instructed to pick who he feels is (one of) the best on the team. There should be an official warning (like with a delay of game) to keep it honest, though.

Robertmto
06-05-2006, 05:00 PM
I think the NBA should maybe have a system of judging the refs' performance. Like in the MLB.

Los Angeles
06-05-2006, 05:02 PM
beast23, I love your idea. The rule could stand that the referee chooses which player gets the T, and is instructed to pick who he feels is (one of) the best on the team. There should be an official warning (like with a delay of game) to keep it honest, though.
I HATE the idea. Imagine this year's finals: game 7, two minutes to go, Wade has 5 fouls, a Miami player complains to the ref, and the ref gets to choose who gets the T. He's officially screwed. If he chooses Wade, he is accused of giving the series to Dallas. If he gives the T to another player, he is accused of favoring Miami.

The player that does the complaining gets the T. It's the only way this kind of thing would work.

Knucklehead Warrior
06-05-2006, 05:55 PM
The player that does the complaining gets the T. It's the only way this kind of thing would work.

Agreed. The coach and/or the captain speak to the refs, no one else.
Glaring is permitted. Remember the Robert Parish glare?

Hicks
06-05-2006, 06:10 PM
I HATE the idea. Imagine this year's finals: game 7, two minutes to go, Wade has 5 fouls, a Miami player complains to the ref, and the ref gets to choose who gets the T. He's officially screwed. If he chooses Wade, he is accused of giving the series to Dallas. If he gives the T to another player, he is accused of favoring Miami.

The player that does the complaining gets the T. It's the only way this kind of thing would work.

It would never come to that. Teams would figure out by December to STFU and play the game.

VF21
06-05-2006, 06:25 PM
I think they should make the rule that only the head coach and 1 designated player can talk to the refs at all during the game. If someone else tries to, they get 1 warning, and then the team gets a T every time afterward. Either the team, or the player himself (meaning he's tossed for doing it twice, or getting one in-game T and one ref-T). The NBA badly needs to end what's happening right now. Too much jaw-flapping, to much yelling at the refs while not getting back on D (Hello Stephen Jackson), too much whining, too many drama queens after tough or bad calls (Hello Rasheed "Do A Little Dance" Wallace), and so forth. It needs to end. It's embarassing.

Great idea.

You need to come post it on my board before I steal it.

;)

ABADays
06-05-2006, 08:18 PM
I'm all for the one player having a say on the court. Fans are getting so tired of the *****ing!

VF21
06-05-2006, 08:24 PM
Too late, Hicks. I stole it - but I did give you credit.

;)

Pig Nash
06-05-2006, 08:24 PM
Captain and coach are only one's allowed to talk to the refs. And if you think a call is grevious enough to go to them then maybe they can talk to the ref about it when there's not a freaking play going on at the other end of the court.

beast23
06-05-2006, 10:53 PM
Captain and coach are only one's allowed to talk to the refs. And if you think a call is grevious enough to go to them then maybe they can talk to the ref about it when there's not a freaking play going on at the other end of the court.That's really a more practical way of handling the situation.

Captain, or one designated player on the floor, and coach are the official spokesmen for the team and as such are the only ones allowed to speak to the ref other than during timeouts.

During a timeout, there is nothing wrong with any player asking a question in a civil manner.

But Hicks is right. If you T-up the best player, teams will have their mouths under control well before Christmas.

Will Galen
06-05-2006, 11:29 PM
You want to control the b!tching, then Stern should tell the refs to T-up not the offending player, but instead the team's best player on the floor. Trust me, coaches and fellow players will get the player to shut up very quickly.

I'm one that hates all the bellyaching players do, but that would be totally unfair to the best player. Throwing the bellyacher out of the game, or giving the coach a tech for not controlling his players I could see, but this . . .
nope!

I could see some players complaining just to get the best player thrown out of the game, that way their buddy could play.

In my estimation there are to many things wrong with this idea.

Will Galen
06-05-2006, 11:39 PM
But Hicks is right. If you T-up the best player, teams will have their mouths under control well before Christmas.

For the most part yes, but it would still happen. Stern's idea of punishing Ron Artest so severely was with the idea that players wouldn't even think of going in the stands again. Ha! Players are still going into the stands.

People don't always think before doing something, they react.

8.9_seconds
06-06-2006, 12:34 AM
They should call a T or a personal foul on any player that flops.


Whoa, isn't that a little extreme? I would say that about 90% of Wide open lay-ups where a charge is called is a flop. Taking a charge and doing it so it is an offensive foul is an art of the game, I think that a T is a little extreme for that.

Bball
06-06-2006, 12:53 AM
Just make complaining to the ref while the ball is in play an automatic ejection for the player doing it.

I don't want to see the complaining so even if it's the Pacer with the hot hand, I don't care. Get him off the court, away from the bench, and out of my sight.

Note to TPTB- Put a stop to the sh-+ and start yanking these players and suspending them yourselves for this stuff. Make it an immediate ejection and suspension and trip to the showers. No exceptions. No playing favorites or double-standards. If the ball is in play then all 5 players should be playing ball, not whining to the refs. Zero tolerance. If the ball is in play, the refs are off limits.

-Bball

Will Galen
06-06-2006, 01:49 AM
Just make complaining to the ref while the ball is in play an automatic ejection for the player doing it.

Works for me!

Robertmto
06-06-2006, 01:55 AM
Just make complaining to the ref while the ball is in play an automatic ejection for the player doing it.


-Bball

It would end up a 1 on 1 game everynite, and sometimes with less players.

Can you imagine Michael Doleac vs. Pavel Podkolzine for the :trophy: ?!

Stryder
06-06-2006, 06:38 AM
It would end up a 1 on 1 game everynite, and sometimes with less players.

Can you imagine Michael Doleac vs. Pavel Podkolzine for the :trophy: ?!

You don't get the point. The players would have to learn and adapt (i.e. stop complaining and *****ing after every call).

RWB
06-06-2006, 07:41 AM
I HATE the idea. Imagine this year's finals: game 7, two minutes to go, Wade has 5 fouls, a Miami player complains to the ref, and the ref gets to choose who gets the T. He's officially screwed. If he chooses Wade, he is accused of giving the series to Dallas. If he gives the T to another player, he is accused of favoring Miami.

The player that does the complaining gets the T. It's the only way this kind of thing would work.

:applaud:


I'm not a big fan of the 'Kindergarten or Kindergarden' rule where you punish everyone for a particular individuals' mistake. What LA posted makes sense to me.

Hicks
06-06-2006, 07:48 AM
It's not a "Kindergarten rule". It's a generel school discipline method. It works. And this isn't what we're talking about. That would be like giving a T to every player and every coach whenever one player mouths off.

RWB
06-06-2006, 07:58 AM
It's not a "Kindergarten rule". It's a generel school discipline method. It works. And this isn't what we're talking about. That would be like giving a T to every player and every coach whenever one player mouths off.

Ok Mr. Wise guy, let's get this out in the open. Is it Kindergarten or Kindergarden? ;) Being a teacher you know you're on the hot seat friend.

Hicks
06-06-2006, 08:09 AM
with a "T"

Stryder
06-06-2006, 08:57 AM
with a "T"

I believe it is German for "Children's garden". Hence, the 'T'.

Knucklehead Warrior
06-06-2006, 09:40 AM
Biergarten :buddies:

Since86
06-06-2006, 09:51 AM
I'm with LA and RWB. You don't punish a player for what his teammate did, because he can't control his teammates mouth. He can try to intervene, but usually he'll be too far away to react.

These are grown men, and you treat them that way. If they can't control themselves, then you punish those guilty.

indygeezer
06-06-2006, 10:02 AM
I believe it is German for "Children's garden". Hence, the 'T'.


kinter garten....kindtergarden....kindergarden.........Ge rman for Children "garden" play grounds.

I don't care who gets the T.......shut em up!



BTW.....military.........everyone pays for the mistake of the one.

Fool
06-06-2006, 10:10 AM
I think they should make the refs play 21 during halftime. "Yeah Bavetta! Jam it in Crawford's face!"

Since86
06-06-2006, 10:24 AM
BTW.....military.........everyone pays for the mistake of the one.

One persons mistake can also be the cause of a whole platoon's destruction. Basketball is a game, and no matter what people say, it's not life or death.

bulletproof
06-06-2006, 11:04 AM
I'm with LA and RWB. You don't punish a player for what his teammate did, because he can't control his teammates mouth. He can try to intervene, but usually he'll be too far away to react.

These are grown men, and you treat them that way. If they can't control themselves, then you punish those guilty.

Quoted for truth.

Hicks
06-06-2006, 12:08 PM
These are grown men, and you treat them that way.

They act like children with the referees. Treating them like it would actually get a point across instead of just making it tougher to do the exact same thing.

bulletproof
06-06-2006, 12:15 PM
They act like children with the referees. Treating them like it would actually get a point across instead of just making it tougher to do the exact same thing.

Some of them act like children with the referees, not all of them.

Since86
06-06-2006, 12:22 PM
They act like children with the referees. Treating them like it would actually get a point across instead of just making it tougher to do the exact same thing.

Treat those who act like children, like children then. Give them there technical, which is the equivalant of a timeout for a toddler. If they misbehave again send them to their (locker)room.

I wonder what the principal of your school would say if you sent a student to his/her office that wasn't doing anything wrong, because another student was giving you lip. Not to mention the parents.

Hicks
06-06-2006, 12:31 PM
Of course that doesn't make sense; this isn't a classroom; the analogy doesn't hold up completely. This is a sport, and if you target the star player, it cripples your team's competitiveness. That's the whole point. *sigh* I'm leaving this alone. I don't give a **** about it, but I like the idea. I'm sure as hell not going to argue over it.

Los Angeles
06-06-2006, 12:37 PM
Can't we just agree that complaining to a ref while the clock is ticking should get a technical? Isn't that enough? Arguing over the "best player" concept is a waste of time.

bulletproof
06-06-2006, 01:13 PM
Of course that doesn't make sense; this isn't a classroom; the analogy doesn't hold up completely. This is a sport, and if you target the star player, it cripples your team's competitiveness. That's the whole point. *sigh* I'm leaving this alone. I don't give a **** about it, but I like the idea. I'm sure as hell not going to argue over it.

Argument? I thought you guys were having a civil discussion. :shrug:

Arcadian
06-06-2006, 01:46 PM
How about if you stand back to argue with the ref the other team would get a 5 on 4 "power play". Seeing how this hurts the team surely Stephen would get the message and stop.

Los Angeles
06-06-2006, 01:54 PM
Let's split hairs some more. "You guys"? I thought VF21 was a female. She was involved in this early, so let's not say it incorrectly.
:laugh:

WAY OT - a good friend used to work on a party cruise boat, and was the "beer girl" who passed beers out from a cooler for tips. There was a vacation group of lesbian women taking the cruise one day, and a couple took beers from my friend, tipped her a couple of bucks and asked how late they would be serving.

"I'll be serving until 10, but the main bar will be open until 11 if you guys want anything after that."

At the sound of "you guys," the women suddenly stared at her in anger, reached into the tip jar, took their money back and stormed off. :)

Knucklehead Warrior
06-06-2006, 03:00 PM
How about if you stand back to argue with the ref the other team would get a 5 on 4 "power play". Seeing how this hurts the team surely Stephen would get the message and stop.
He's already doing a 4 on 5 NOW. :laugh:

ChicagoJ
06-06-2006, 03:16 PM
Can't we just agree that complaining to a ref while the clock is ticking should get a technical? Isn't that enough?

Why? The team is appropriately punished when Stephen Jackson's man gets an easy basket while he's yapping away.

We're just mad that we've got the leading offender(s) in this category. Doesn't mean that rule should change.

It obviously doesn't bother Rick. In fact, I think he encourages it since he rarely, if ever, says anything to the officials that these guys would think was "sticking up for them" and he never disciplines any player but David for complaining to the officials.

beast23
06-06-2006, 03:38 PM
Of course that doesn't make sense; this isn't a classroom; the analogy doesn't hold up completely. This is a sport, and if you target the star player, it cripples your team's competitiveness. That's the whole point. *sigh* I'm leaving this alone. I don't give a **** about it, but I like the idea. I'm sure as hell not going to argue over it.Wow. I throw out something that I'd used before in youth sports, and I never realized it would generate so much discussion.

Hicks, you fought a good fight, but it probably is something that would be difficult to apply at the professional level.

Part of the problem is that just about every pro player is a millionaire and a prima-donna. Within an NBA pro team environment, there really is no such thing as "peer pressure" that can be applied in an attempt to reel in a player's behavior. And I think a player like Jackson is too subborn and emotional anyway; the only thing that can be done is for the Carlisle to bench him. That action is probably more likely to build up resentment rather than bringing any positive result.

The easiest means of policing the situation without putting the burden on the teams themselves, possible resulting in friction between coaches and players, players and administrators and even coaches and administrators is for the league to legislate it as a rule.

So, I suppose levelling a "T" on any player that "discusses" a call with a ref during anything other than a time or between quarters is the most practical way of handling the situation.

Arcadian
06-06-2006, 03:46 PM
I agree with Jay. Really the responsiblity for keeping players in line is the teams' not the league's. We shouldn't be asking Stern to do something about our players' behavior we should be asking Rick.

beast23
06-06-2006, 04:03 PM
I agree with Jay. Really the responsiblity for keeping players in line is the teams' not the league's. We shouldn't be asking Stern to do something about our players' behavior we should be asking Rick.I would normally agree with you that players' behavior is better policed by the teams than the league.

However, in this instance, there is nothing that a ref would love to do more than "T" up someone who's giving him a lot of grief. I think that this is something that could be policed far easier by the league and its refs than the individual teams. And Pavlovian conditioning being what it is, if the refs handle it, I believe it would enable a swift change in the on-court behavior of the players.

Putting it in the hands of the teams would not stop the problem because its handling would not be uniform across the league. Some coaches would turn a deaf ear and not even address it, while others would address it promptly every time the problem occurs.

If you want the perception of sportsmanship to improve across the league, and you have an easy way to legislate it, then I think that would present the best solution. In this instance, it would be very simple to provide rules governing what happens when you begin whining to the officials.

ChicagoJ
06-06-2006, 06:15 PM
I'm all-for more "T's" being called for badly behaving players.

Even if it is Stephen Jackson at fault - I don't want the officials to stop play just because the defensive player is screaming at them (something the officials won't do anyway.) Now, as soon as the Pacers get the ball back, give him the "T" and take the that possession away.

Clearly, if the officials are not calling a "T" when its deserved then the teams have no incentive to enforce good behavior.

VF21
06-06-2006, 11:55 PM
Let's split hairs some more. "You guys"? I thought VF21 was a female. She was involved in this early, so let's not say it incorrectly.
:laugh:

WAY OT - a good friend used to work on a party cruise boat, and was the "beer girl" who passed beers out from a cooler for tips. There was a vacation group of lesbian women taking the cruise one day, and a couple took beers from my friend, tipped her a couple of bucks and asked how late they would be serving.

"I'll be serving until 10, but the main bar will be open until 11 if you guys want anything after that."

At the sound of "you guys," the women suddenly stared at her in anger, reached into the tip jar, took their money back and stormed off. :)

erm, what?

VF21
06-06-2006, 11:58 PM
Back to the topic at hand?

I like the idea of holding the teams responsible for the actions of their players. The coaches should be the ones making it clear that guys who argue/whine during the game will be set down. Fines wouldn't do any good, but pulling a player as a disciplinary action just might work. Of course, you'd have to have a general manager willing to yank a coach if HE didn't follow the rules...

The bottom line is the whole situation is an embarrassment. Teams need to shut up, suck it up and just play the game. Any complaints about the officiating can be done when the clock is stopped.

Big Smooth
06-07-2006, 12:45 AM
Of course that doesn't make sense; this isn't a classroom; the analogy doesn't hold up completely. This is a sport, and if you target the star player, it cripples your team's competitiveness. That's the whole point. *sigh* I'm leaving this alone. I don't give a **** about it, but I like the idea. I'm sure as hell not going to argue over it.

It is a rather lousy idea. In fact it's downright horrible. Yes, let's eject guys who did nothing wrong. That is the message to send. Then you'll have lesser teams trying to bait your team into a tech in order to get rid of the star.

It's really one of the poorest ideas I've ever come across and I'm being very serious.

Hicks
06-07-2006, 08:11 AM
Tell me how you really feel. :flirt:

Since86
06-07-2006, 09:29 AM
It is a rather lousy idea. In fact it's downright horrible. Yes, let's eject guys who did nothing wrong. That is the message to send. Then you'll have lesser teams trying to bait your team into a tech in order to get rid of the star.

It's really one of the poorest ideas I've ever come across and I'm being very serious.

I don't like the idea either, but obviously you've missed the boat.

How can the other team bait an opposing player into complaining to an official? The idea isn't for jawing to the other team, or even fighting, it's purely for players who b!tch at refs while the ball is in play.

If an opposing player has enough skill to manipulate his opponent into that, then he's pretty gifted.

Bball
06-07-2006, 09:35 AM
How about the league issuing fines to the teams for players deemed to be crossing the line with arguing with the refs during the play?

The team itself should really be cleaning some of this stuff up and not throwing their hands up or passing the buck. Whether it's a coach with a backbone or a strongwilled GM or owner, either way works for me. And if they aren't doing their job then perhaps a stiff fine from the league can help serve as a reminder.

I suppose that way the other team doesn't get cheated out of a 5-4 fast break when the ref calls a technical... and the fans of the team of whiners don't feel cheated by losing a possession after just watching their team already be penalized by playing 4 on 5 and THEN the ref issuing the tech.

Of course the ref would always have the option of a tech.

But I really don't care how it's done... No more whining Pacer players should be allowed.

-Bball

Shade
06-07-2006, 05:37 PM
Maybe the fact that there have been 770,000 complaints about the refs should set off some alarms, eh Stern?

If you're tired of the complaints, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Dumbass.

A lot of players just like to whine, but I know when I'm getting hosed while I'm working my *** off I'm going to be pissed as well. If Stern would make it clear that players are going to be T'd up and/or ejected for complaining rather than making up rules on the fly all the time, things would be better for everyone involved.

SycamoreKen
06-08-2006, 06:40 PM
maybe the officials should start calling things the same way, the whole game, for every player. The way they manipulate and massage games to keep them competitive is stupid. I'm not eve going to get into the start player treatment that has been talked about to death. Also the officials need to be 100% sure something happened before blowing the whistle. The do more assuming on plays than any group I have ever seen, with the classic example being from this year's playoffs when the goof blew the whistle when he thoguht Ginobili was going to double dribble before he even touched the ball.

The players also need to stop the moaning and complaining. If you complain about everything then the refs just block it out. I would make the job of talking to the refs an assistant's responsiblity. That way your head coach and captains are not tied up during a time out.

beast23
06-08-2006, 07:38 PM
A lot of players just like to whine, but I know when I'm getting hosed while I'm working my *** off I'm going to be pissed as well. If Stern would make it clear that players are going to be T'd up and/or ejected for complaining rather than making up rules on the fly all the time, things would be better for everyone involved.I think that venting is a natural reaction to most people when they believe they've been wronged.

But the complaining in the league has increasingly gotten out of hand over the last 4-5 years. A lot of players get touched when they are driving or shooting, and if they misss the shot or lose the ball after minimal contact, the still really get out of sorts.

I believe other players complain because it allows them to shift the blame after making a bad play. To me, that's how Jermaine used to be. He got a little contact in the paint, missed his shot, lost the ball or didn't get the rebound and he'd either jack his jaw or give the ref the angry stare. To his credit, although he is still a work in progress, I believe JO has this much more under control now than it used to be.

I don't think you can really hit the team with the fines because I believe that most teams stand behind their players anyway. They'll just play it and let the matter drop... unless we're talking 50K or 100K maybe.

I think that it is best controlled by some form of on-court action. And I think a T is the best means to do it. Perhaps 2 Ts in a single game for complaining not only ejects the player for the rest of the game, but also gets him a 1-game suspension. Or maybe x number of Ts in 5 games also results in a 1-game suspension.

Who knows? One thing is for certain... the NBA has to get it under control.

arenn
06-10-2006, 05:10 PM
Well, complaining about officiating is perhaps out of hand. OTOH:

1. Officiating in the NBA is horrible. It is by far the worst officiated professional sport. When LeBron gets to take 20 steps to the hole, etc., etc., etc. then it should come as no surprise when people complain. It's not the complaining that is making people lose faith in NBA officiating (for those who didn't lose faith a long time ago), it is a long history of poor officiating and two-tier treatment for superstars.

2. Complaining about officiating works.

Robertmto
06-10-2006, 06:15 PM
Well, complaining about officiating is perhaps out of hand. OTOH:

1. Officiating in the NBA is horrible. It is by far the worst officiated professional sport. When LeBron gets to take 20 steps to the hole, etc., etc., etc. then it should come as no surprise when people complain. It's not the complaining that is making people lose faith in NBA officiating (for those who didn't lose faith a long time ago), it is a long history of poor officiating and two-tier treatment for superstars.

:censored: LeBron, the traveing machine.

beast23
06-10-2006, 11:40 PM
Well, complaining about officiating is perhaps out of hand. OTOH:

1. Officiating in the NBA is horrible. It is by far the worst officiated professional sport. When LeBron gets to take 20 steps to the hole, etc., etc., etc. then it should come as no surprise when people complain. It's not the complaining that is making people lose faith in NBA officiating (for those who didn't lose faith a long time ago), it is a long history of poor officiating and two-tier treatment for superstars.

2. Complaining about officiating works.
Your are correct that there appears to be a two-tiered treatment for players, but I think you miss the main point of the thread. Fans are being turned off by players constantly ******ing about officiating.

I think that improvement in the calls and perhaps making minor rules changes to enable easier and more certain judgements in making calls would be beneficial. That is something that is continually being done almost every season.

But there's more to it than just improvement of the officials. It's also an improvement in the behavior of the prima-donas that seem to forget that officials are human and will make mistakes. It's getting old. And quite frankly, if you really think about it, the 3 officials make far fewer mistakes each game than the players do. Teams average what, about 12-13 error per game. That's 25 mistakes a game. I've not seen many games where I thought the officials missed more than 8-10 calls, and of those, maybe an average of 2-3 are what we might term "gross errors".

What I'd still like to see is an official stop a game after Jackson takes a stupid shot, commits a dumb foul or makes an error and go over and start criticising him. I can see it now, "Jackson, you dumb son-of-a-******, how the hell you make such a stupid pass. If they gave you credit for assists to the other team, you'd probably be averaging 5-6 assists per game!"

As they say, paybacks are hell. I think it's time the players went through a little hell of their own.

One thing that I do believe is necessary in basketball is for the league to adopt the "play on" rule of soccer. You have a player jacking his jaw on a fast break by the other team, let the play continue through the shot and eventual change of possession on the break, then call the technical... and make it a two shot infraction, just like the bench technicals used to be years ago.

Let a team hit a laying then get 2 more points on a technical and maybe that would help players keep their mouths shut.

But quite frankly, other than technicals for illegal defenses, I believe every technical should be a two-shot infraction. A larger penalty would definitely help reduce some of the bad behavior that results in the infraction being called.

Bball
06-11-2006, 09:58 AM
I still like an 'automatic' ejection for a player complaining about a call/no call while the ball is in play.

I'd also be fine with a rule that only the team captains could talk with the officials... at all.

But then, I'd be all for tossing players for beating on their chests and any other showboating after a made basket too.... so what do I know?

-Bball

ChicagoJ
06-12-2006, 12:08 PM
How 'bout when they pull the armpit of their jersey to the side just to show that "they've got heart"? Should they be tossed, too?

What about if you hit three ridiculous three-pointers in a row during The Finals. Should you be allowed to turn to the camera and shrug, in disbelief?

Do we want to watch robots play the game with no emotion?

I'd like to see the officials call a few more technical fouls when deserved (not, however, the example of when Joey Crawford tossed Reggie from the game in Altanta when Reggie was sitting on the bench.) But the players need to show some emotion, too.

And sometimes, that emotion is anger. When used properly (hint to Stephen Jackson and even my boy Harrison, that doesn't mean after e-v-e-r-y s-i-n-g-l-e c-a-l-l) it can be useful while not distracting to the game.

Bball
06-12-2006, 04:33 PM
How 'bout when they pull the armpit of their jersey to the side just to show that "they've got heart"? Should they be tossed, too?

Yes.



What about if you hit three ridiculous three-pointers in a row during The Finals. Should you be allowed to turn to the camera and shrug, in disbelief?

No problem with that.




Do we want to watch robots play the game with no emotion?

There's a difference in a natural show of emotion and showboating.




I'd like to see the officials call a few more technical fouls when deserved (not, however, the example of when Joey Crawford tossed Reggie from the game in Altanta when Reggie was sitting on the bench.) But the players need to show some emotion, too.

No problem here with seeing players showing some heart and natural excitement. That's not showboating tho.


And sometimes, that emotion is anger. When used properly (hint to Stephen Jackson and even my boy Harrison, that doesn't mean after e-v-e-r-y s-i-n-g-l-e c-a-l-l) it can be useful while not distracting to the game.

Some players can actually make anger work for them and channel their emotions into their game and take their play to another level. Some players let their emotions take them out of their game tho. Tinsley and JO come to mind here.

-Bball

Robertmto
06-12-2006, 05:01 PM
You guys are going over the lne here, do you want Shaq tossed every time he shimmies down the court bball?