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View Full Version : Can the Pacers win a championship with JO as its best player?



rexnom
06-03-2006, 01:20 PM
Just a fundamental question. Can the Pacers win a championship with JO as the go-to guy and franchise player? You are free to explain your choice but I would just like to get a read of this board.

A "yes" answer could mean JO is the best player but he gets lots of new help, it could be that he gets some new pieces, but mostly it's him elevating his game like Brand or Dirk did, or it could be something completely different.

A "no" answer could mean that it's just simply impossible with JO, that JO can still be on the team, but someone else, like maybe Danny, needs to be "the guy," or it could something completely different.

Peck
06-03-2006, 03:04 PM
Sorry but yes & no are just to little of a box for me on this one.

I will say maybe, but probably not.

I mean if you surround J.O. with a team like the Pistons minus their best player (whoever you want to say that is) then sure, J.O. could win.

But to just keep trying the same old throw it in to J.O. & have a bunch of outside shooters to help him? No way in hell.

My gut tells me though that J.O. is not a franchise like player so since you want us to vote I will, but I still say it could go either way depending on the circumstance.

rexnom
06-03-2006, 03:24 PM
Sorry but yes & no are just to little of a box for me on this one.

I will say maybe, but probably not.

I mean if you surround J.O. with a team like the Pistons minus their best player (whoever you want to say that is) then sure, J.O. could win.

But to just keep trying the same old throw it in to J.O. & have a bunch of outside shooters to help him? No way in hell.

My gut tells me though that J.O. is not a franchise like player so since you want us to vote I will, but I still say it could go either way depending on the circumstance.
Maybe restricting the poll was a mistake but I just wanted to avoid cop-out answers.

To me the Pistons are a rare anomaly. Usually you have to have a franchise guy and build around him...get pieces that will fit him. Can JO be that guy? If we build around him, get players to fit his skill set, and rely on him to carry us when we are down, can we win a championship?

I think yes. I just don't think we really have ever tried building around JO. I think Peja was a step in that direction because he can take some pressure off of JO as well as cut. We don't have nearly enough cutters and not enough real shooters. He needs a scoring big guy. As good as Duncan is, he has always had a good team built around him.

I like flirting with the idea of trading JO for younger talent and picks and such, but I really think that we should build around him first. And I do think it's worth it.

Young
06-03-2006, 03:26 PM
Yes the Pacers can win a championship with JO as the best player.

But as Peck said we can't just surrond him with outside shooters and throw the ball to Jermaine in the post.

You defiantly have to have atleast 2 very good players besides JO. But JO can still be the best player on a championship team.

vapacersfan
06-03-2006, 03:45 PM
Sorry but yes & no are just to little of a box for me on this one.

I will say maybe, but probably not.

I mean if you surround J.O. with a team like the Pistons minus their best player (whoever you want to say that is) then sure, J.O. could win.

But to just keep trying the same old throw it in to J.O. & have a bunch of outside shooters to help him? No way in hell.

My gut tells me though that J.O. is not a franchise like player so since you want us to vote I will, but I still say it could go either way depending on the circumstance.

I agree with this.

I think we really had it made with Artest, if only he were sane.

I think minus the mental illness, most would have no problem saying Artest was a better player then JO. But we still went to JO in the clutch more then we did Artest.

I dont think it really matter if JO is our best player or not (although it would be great to get a perimiter player that could compliment him, and if that person is a better player then JO then so be it) but what really matters is how our personel is used. I think that will have the biggest impact on this teams success, or lack there of.

If we continue to sit back and just dump the ball into JO and have the other 4 guys just stand around, we will continue to be dissappointed.

Hoop
06-03-2006, 04:15 PM
I thank we could win it all with JO being our best player. As long as Granger develops and becomes close to JO's level and Peja plays his best.

Shade
06-03-2006, 04:47 PM
I thank we could win it all with JO being our best player. As long as Granger develops and becomes close to JO's level and Peja plays his best.

Add in a new SG and a true center and I agree.

Even though he's undersized, I would kill for Ben Gordon right now.

Magloire is also on the block in Milwaukee, it would appear.

I would go hard after both of those guys.

C - Mags/Hulk
PF - JO/Cro
SF - Peja/Danny
SG - Gordon/FJones?
PG - Tins/AJ/Runi

:drool:

Skaut_Ech
06-03-2006, 04:57 PM
No.

It's that simple for me.

No.

You said with JO as our go-to player and franchise guy.

JO strikes me as neither a leader or a dominant player. You substitute Steve Nash, I say maybe. Duncan...okay. Garnett...maybe...Wade, Dirk, LeBron, Bryant, Marion, Artest, Arenas, Ming, Carter, I can but them as the most dominant player on a team and given surrounding them with proper talent, I can see it. I just don't with Jermaine. I dont see the leadership needed. I don't see the maturity. I don't see the vision from him. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt. Or maybe I feel I've gotten to see what he can do.

I think of Jermanie as a Scottie Pippen. I see him as the second guy, not THE guy.

That being said, maybe it's possible if he has an equal. He's Karl Malone to a John Stockton type. Or he's a Shawn Kemp to someones Gary Payton. Jerome Kersey to someone's Clyde Drexler.

I thought Ron-Ron was going to be that guy. I'm sure so did the Pacer's brass, to the point that they looked away at his indiscretions for far too long.

I think Jermaine needs a strong minded leader to point the way, just as Payton, Stockton, Clyde, etc, did for their second bananas.

I don't think that guy is on this team. Might be Danny. Saras is a long shot. I dunno.

I do know that I feel Jermaine is NOT the guy to lead us there. Great guy. Very good ball player. But he's not the one.

Shade
06-03-2006, 05:03 PM
"Leadership" is overrated. If you surround JO with the right players, he can win a title. And as the best player on the team.

SoupIsGood
06-03-2006, 05:09 PM
In the past few years we could have. Now, I'm not so sure. The other team's franchise players have gotten too good. Wade, LeBron, and Dwight Howard eventually..... :sigh:

He would need 4 very good players starting with him. Danny is a great start in that direction.

Shade
06-03-2006, 05:12 PM
In the past few years we could have. Now, I'm not so sure. The other team's franchise players have gotten too good. Wade, LeBron, and Dwight Howard eventually..... :sigh:

He would need 4 very good players starting with him. Danny is a great start in that direction.

Except, Danny won't be starting... :unimpress

We really need a new starting C and SG this offseason. Now, more than ever, is the right time to move Jeff. In addition to his hip issues, the "new NBA" we are witnessing has little room for severe offensive liabilities like Foster. Just look at Ben Wallace.

rexnom
06-03-2006, 05:16 PM
Except, Danny won't be starting... :unimpress

We really need a new starting C and SG this offseason. Now, more than ever, is the right time to move Jeff. In addition to his hip issues, the "new NBA" we are witnessing has little room for severe offensive liabilities like Foster. Just look at Ben Wallace.
I think Danny could start. I think they're going for Danny, Peja, JO (with Jack being shipped out). Danny needs to work on his handle and penetration a bit, but he can do it. All this being said, I would also love Ben Gordon on this team.

McKeyFan
06-03-2006, 05:47 PM
I mean if you surround J.O. with a team like the Pistons minus their best player (whoever you want to say that is) then sure, J.O. could win.

JO is no longer the best player on the floor if you add any of Detroit's starting five.

Shade
06-03-2006, 05:58 PM
JO is no longer the best player on the floor if you add any of Detroit's starting five.

Bull. Add JO in place of one of the Wallaces and Detroit wins this year.

Jermaniac
06-03-2006, 11:07 PM
JO is no longer the best player on the floor if you add any of Detroit's starting five.You dont beleive what you just said, now sit on your hands.

You put the right pieces around Jermaine, pieces that are not idiots, and yes we can win a championship.

wooolus
06-03-2006, 11:42 PM
You replace Ben with JO, Detroit will win another Ship

beast23
06-03-2006, 11:51 PM
No.

It's that simple for me.

No.

You said with JO as our go-to player and franchise guy.

JO strikes me as neither a leader or a dominant player. You substitute Steve Nash, I say maybe. Duncan...okay. Garnett...maybe...Wade, Dirk, LeBron, Bryant, Marion, Artest, Arenas, Ming, Carter, I can but them as the most dominant player on a team and given surrounding them with proper talent, I can see it. I just don't with Jermaine. I dont see the leadership needed. I don't see the maturity. I don't see the vision from him. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt. Or maybe I feel I've gotten to see what he can do.

I think of Jermanie as a Scottie Pippen. I see him as the second guy, not THE guy.

That being said, maybe it's possible if he has an equal. He's Karl Malone to a John Stockton type. Or he's a Shawn Kemp to someones Gary Payton. Jerome Kersey to someone's Clyde Drexler.

I thought Ron-Ron was going to be that guy. I'm sure so did the Pacer's brass, to the point that they looked away at his indiscretions for far too long.

I think Jermaine needs a strong minded leader to point the way, just as Payton, Stockton, Clyde, etc, did for their second bananas.

I don't think that guy is on this team. Might be Danny. Saras is a long shot. I dunno.

I do know that I feel Jermaine is NOT the guy to lead us there. Great guy. Very good ball player. But he's not the one.Spot on. Very accurate description of what I believe.

I believe we could win a title with JO on the team, playing in an equal-opportunity offense, provided that one of the other players has the leadership skills that we need... and that is assuming that JO would actually accept such a role.

But with JO as the #1 go-to guy, where he will get more shots than any other player game after game... a title will never happen.

D-BONE
06-04-2006, 08:35 AM
I still think JO's a pefect fit as the #2 guy or in a 1A/1B situation. We obviously had the latter set up nicely with he and Ron Ron. Too bad their egos (and obviously RA's insanity) had to get in the way of that balance.

Anthem
06-04-2006, 01:17 PM
I agree with Peck on this one. Depends on how big the gap is between our best and second-best (or fourth-best) player.

BlueNGold
06-04-2006, 01:33 PM
Although I doubt it is going to happen, I said yes. They would have to be very fortunate, but it is possible. So, yes, just as the Pistons were able to win with no defacto superstar (ala Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, etc.), the Pacers could win under the right circumstances with JO as the best player. Of course, the following would be deciding factors:

1) His maturity/attitude/health
3) His supporting cast's maturity/attitude/health and talent level

To be sure, if we had 5 players of about JO's supposedly insufficient talent level, we would have a very good shot.

Bball
06-04-2006, 03:02 PM
JO should never utter the words "I am the leader of this team" or anything similar ever again. He either earns it thru his actions or defers to someone else (whether that person is already on the roster or not) and it should be obvious thru player interactions. He should not have to say it. He also must be willing vacate that leadership role, not stand in the way.

If someone else is naturally filling the void created by JO's inability to maintain the leadership mantle (that was handed to him), then that person needs to be embraced and encouraged in that role. There should be no trepidation and there should be no ego issues with JO. It's time he sucks it up, figures it out, and begins to trust his teammates and understand his own limitations.

And it time the team (and TPTB) understand that as well and begins to use JO for what he is, not what his is not. That might mean Peja becomes the number 1 option... or that Granger gets groomed to be the face of the franchise if he has the proper drive and desire (and ability). ..Or whomever it might be. JO simply needs to accept it and work harder.

JO being overpaid is one thing... but that doesn't mean he has to be overused, misused, and totally exposed just because he is overpaid.

-Bball

vapacersfan
06-04-2006, 03:22 PM
No.

It's that simple for me.

No.

You said with JO as our go-to player and franchise guy.

JO strikes me as neither a leader or a dominant player. You substitute Steve Nash, I say maybe. Duncan...okay. Garnett...maybe...Wade, Dirk, LeBron, Bryant, Marion, Artest, Arenas, Ming, Carter, I can but them as the most dominant player on a team and given surrounding them with proper talent, I can see it. I just don't with Jermaine. I dont see the leadership needed. I don't see the maturity. I don't see the vision from him. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt. Or maybe I feel I've gotten to see what he can do.

I think of Jermanie as a Scottie Pippen. I see him as the second guy, not THE guy.

That being said, maybe it's possible if he has an equal. He's Karl Malone to a John Stockton type. Or he's a Shawn Kemp to someones Gary Payton. Jerome Kersey to someone's Clyde Drexler.

I thought Ron-Ron was going to be that guy. I'm sure so did the Pacer's brass, to the point that they looked away at his indiscretions for far too long.

I think Jermaine needs a strong minded leader to point the way, just as Payton, Stockton, Clyde, etc, did for their second bananas.

I don't think that guy is on this team. Might be Danny. Saras is a long shot. I dunno.

I do know that I feel Jermaine is NOT the guy to lead us there. Great guy. Very good ball player. But he's not the one.

You just said everything I wanted to say in my previous post - thank you!

ChicagoJ
06-05-2006, 03:24 PM
If you surround JO with the right players, he can win a title. And as the best player on the team.

Bingo.

Gamble
06-05-2006, 03:42 PM
I have to say NO he can not as the best player. In this day in age
of the NBA I would say a guard who is able to take over a game
at anytime more valueable than JO on this team.

Leadership and chemistry along with talent produces in the playoffs.
JO provides the talent and isn't a positive or negative for the other two.
He might have a silver spoon in his mouth or just lacks a competive edge
but he hasn't the shoulders to carry this franchise.

Give us another all-star with leadership skills and I believe we have
something to carry us to the finals.

Pig Nash
06-05-2006, 09:42 PM
He just needs Ron Artest-like role player help. (as in ron when he's not crazy)

PacerPerspective
06-06-2006, 12:03 AM
Of course we can, we nearly did a few years back. We need a healthy season, and some nice additions. :)

Ron who?
06-06-2006, 01:33 AM
has everybody forgotten about 2003-2004 Pacers... JO was the go-to guy had a great supporting cast and we had a shot at the championship if detroit wasnt there the championship was ours for the taking because the Pistons won WITHOUT home court AND we did better against the Pistons than the Lakers did... All we would need to do with this line up is trade peja s-jax and tinsley for a decent pg and a good sg.... and i think JO needs to shed some pounds go back to his lean Amare Stoudemire style of play and like i said earlier if anybody needs to be cut its Carlisle....

Robertmto
06-06-2006, 01:48 AM
JO needs to she dpounds and bulk up at the same time if you guys want to win a championship with him as the best player.

Bball
06-06-2006, 09:14 AM
Of course we can, we nearly did a few years back. We need a healthy season, and some nice additions. :)

JO was not the best player IMHO... Artest was. JO was the more sane player tho.

-Bball

Putnam
06-06-2006, 09:33 AM
has everybody forgotten about 2003-2004 Pacers... JO was the go-to guy had a great supporting cast and we had a shot at the championship if detroit wasnt there the championship was ours for the taking because the Pistons won WITHOUT home court AND we did better against the Pistons than the Lakers did... All we would need to do with this line up is trade peja s-jax and tinsley for a decent pg and a good sg.... and i think JO needs to shed some pounds go back to his lean Amare Stoudemire style of play and like i said earlier if anybody needs to be cut its Carlisle....

You are describing a feasible plan to win the 03-04 championship, but it is too late to do that. There have been some pretty strong arguments here (in other threads) that the Pacers are not keeping up with several other teams. Cleveland wasn't an issue in 04, but now they are a very good team. Ditto Chicago. It is against those improved teams that the JO-led Pacers must win a championship, if they ever do.


.

Skaut_Ech
06-06-2006, 09:40 AM
JO was not the best player IMHO... Artest was. JO was the more sane player tho.

-Bball



JO was the go-to guy had a great supporting cast



He just needs Ron Artest-like role player help.

See that's the point I was making in my last post. JO was NOT the best player on the team. Ron was. JO was the marketing face of the team. In terms of talent, Ron was the guy who made things happen.

So you guys who want to say "see, we almost did it two years ago" are making an arguement with a wrong foundation. JO wasn't surrounded with a great supporting cast, RON was the best player on the team. Kinda goes back to my Clyde Drexler/Jerome Kersey analogy I made earlier.

JO is the Kersey/Kemp type player, while he needs a Payton/Clyde. The reason we got as far as we did wasn't JO. It was Ron.

Ron may be a loon, but he's able to bring double digit scoring and rebounds, and play clamp down D and change the flow of the game by himself. Surround HIM with the right role players (providing he was mentally stable) and he could win a title.

I don't think you can do that with JO. He's second banana material, just like Pau Gasol or Troy Murphy.

Slick Pinkham
06-06-2006, 09:48 AM
He's second banana material, just like Pau Gasol or Troy Murphy.

Counting down the seconds until Jermainiac blows a gasket...

10, 9, 8...

ChicagoJ
06-06-2006, 09:57 AM
Ron...

double digit rebounds?

Maybe over the course of an entire week.

Chuck Person was a better rebounder at SF. And that's saying something.

Trader Joe
06-06-2006, 10:07 AM
I think we can. It is all about the setup of the team and the players around him. Peja and Danny both bring things to the table that work around JO. On paper so do Tinsley and Foster. Unfortunately Tinsley and Foster both have deficiencies that hurt too much. Foster has no offense Tinsley is a wuss. I really like Shade's idea of obtaining Magloire and Ben Gordon. Gordon is clutch and would appear to be ready to thrive in this new NBA. Magloire provides D, rebounding, and a big body next to JO. IDK how I feel about Tins still starting next year. The talent is there but can he finally stay healthy and show the desire to take the next step. I also dont know if Rick can be here. If he has lost the players he needs to go ASAP. But yes we can win with JO as our best player we just need the right cast.

Roy Munson
06-06-2006, 06:38 PM
JO is not a leader. He'll never make his teammates better.

JO can make all the brave speeches to the media he wants, but the bottom line is that if his teammates don't look up to him and respect him as a leader, then he isn't their leader. Leadership is so much more than speeches to a reporter.

Nash is a leader.
Duncan is a leader.
Billups is a leader.
Wade is figuring out how to be a leader.
Dirk has become a decent leader.

JO. No way.

Lord Helmet
06-06-2006, 07:02 PM
I voted no, but I'm kinda with Peck on this one.

Diesel_81
06-07-2006, 01:00 AM
I think Jermiane can win a title being the teams best player but as of right now we don't have the right mix of players and system in place for that. About getting a pg that actually sets Jermaine Oneal up for easy shots,as well as the other players on this team. I'm tired of seeing that every point Jermaine gets is hard earned, also moving Jermaine Oneal back to powerforward and get that big brusing center would definetly help,but the biggest thing that would help Jermaine Oneals game is adding that bonna fide perimeter all star who can take over a game late in the 4th quarter.

I honestly believe it's tough for all star big men to close games out on a regular basis. I think Jermaine does a great job carrying us for about 3 quarters but we just don't have that guy that can close a game out and strike fear in an opponent. I guess what I'm asking for is another Reggie. Guys like Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen are known for knocking down clutch shots or going on there mini 4th quarter runs to seal a victory. We just don't have that player.