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rexnom
06-02-2006, 12:26 PM
The Tin Man
Andrew Perna - 1st June, 2006 7:24 PM

It’s not often that a player’s nickname is actually a precise description of their career, but in Jamaal Tinsley (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/105/jamaal_tinsley/)’s case it couldn’t be more appropriate. After bursting onto the scene during the first few months of his career in 2001, Tinsley’s brilliance has been shown only in short flashes because of an injury-riddled career that has been giving GM Donnie Walsh indigestion for five years.

After playing relatively injury-free for the first two years of his career, Tinsley has played in roughly half of Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/)’s games over the past three seasons. Meanwhile, in Jamaal’s absence back-up Anthony Johnson (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/423/anthony_johnson/) has shown what he’s capable of when given the opportunity to start and play consistent minutes.

Johnson doubled his career averages this season. Appearing in seventy-five games, and starting fifty-three of them, he averaged 9.2 points and 4.3 assists per game in just twenty-six minutes of play. That production, along with his heroics in the playoffs, have lead many, including myself, to believe at the age of thirty-one Johnson has finally earned the job of starting point guard.

The problem for the Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) is that Tinsley is signed long-term. He has five years left on his contract, which is also quite expensive. Jamaal will be paid nearly $6 million dollars in 2007, and will earn $7.5 million in 2011, the last year of his contract. If the Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) are willing to hand over the reigns to Johnson, they’d be smart to try and parts ways with Tinsley. But who would his history of injuries and inflated contract?

Finding someone who covets Tinsley is one thing. While it’s true that when healthy Tinsley is probably one of the league’s ten best point guards, he hasn’t shown he can remain on the floor long enough to help a team win.

Assume there’s a team that would consider dealing for Tinsley. In order for the deal to work financially the Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) would have to trade for a player within his salary range. That might work out fine for Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/), but their trading partner might not want to give up a player getting paid six million a year, because his market value could be higher than Tinsley’s.

If that doesn’t work out there are other ways Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/) could try to deal Tinsley. They could package him with other players in an attempt to make a deal. However, another problem arises. Assuming Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/) doesn’t want to part with young talent like Sarunas Jasikevicius (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1143/sarunas_jasikevicius/), Danny Granger (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1097/danny_granger/), David Harrison (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/973/david_harrison/), and Jeff Foster (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/460/jeff_foster/) – they don’t have very many tradable players.

Austin Croshere (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/462/austin_croshere/) will be famously overpaid at nine million dollars next season. The only other Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) under contract for next season are Jonathan Bender (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/465/jonathan_bender/) (retired), Stephen Jackson (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/254/stephen_jackson/), and Jermaine O’Neal. Jackson becomes the most likely option, at six million per year, but again you’d have to find someone willing to take a contract that runs through 2010.

The Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) can’t advertise Jackson or Tinsley as future cap relief, unless teams are planning to rebuild for half of a decade. Therefore the Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) best option would involve being part of a three-way trade where they send Tinsley in one direction and Jackson in another.

I used RealGM’s own Trade Checker to work through two deals that work on paper, but still would need to pass the ‘real world’ test.

In a three-way deal Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/) sends Jackson to Denver (http://nuggets.realgm.com/) for Reggie Evans (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/781/reggie_evans/) and sends Tinsley to New York (http://knicks.realgm.com/) for Jamal Crawford (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/7/jamal_crawford/). (To make things work Denver (http://nuggets.realgm.com/) gets Quentin Richardson (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/42/quentin_richardson/) and New York (http://knicks.realgm.com/) gets Kenyon Martin (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/104/kenyon_martin/)).

This trade works well for both Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/) and Denver (http://nuggets.realgm.com/) on the court, but it’s an uncertain move for New York (http://knicks.realgm.com/). It’s a great move for the Knicks (http://knicks.realgm.com/) if they can unload either Steve Francis (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/288/steve_francis/) or Stephon Marbury (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/252/stephon_marbury/), but if they don’t this deal would give them three point guards worthy of starting. The Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) earn cap relief as they can choose to either re-sign Evans, or let him go into the free agent pool this summer.

Jamal Crawford (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/7/jamal_crawford/) becomes a long-term investment with his contract running though 2011 like Tinsley’s, and he’ll be owed ten million in the last year of his deal, almost three million more than The Tin Man.

The next trade is another three-way deal, but this time it involves Chicago (http://bulls.realgm.com/) and Minnesota (http://timberwolves.realgm.com/). The Timberwolves (http://timberwolves.realgm.com/) need help at the point guard position so Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/) sends Tinsley to Minnesota (http://timberwolves.realgm.com/) for Mark Blount (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/361/mark_blount/). Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/) then sends Jackson to Chicago (http://bulls.realgm.com/) for Ben Gordon (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/947/ben_gordon/). (To make things work Chicago (http://bulls.realgm.com/) gets Trenton Hassell (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/94/trenton_hassell/) and Minnesota (http://timberwolves.realgm.com/) gets Michael Sweetney).

This deal works out tremendously for both Indiana (http://pacers.realgm.com/) and Chicago (http://bulls.realgm.com/). The Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) get an explosive guard in Gordon, which would than ease the possible loss of Fred Jones (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/752/fred_jones/) to free agency. They also get a big man in Blount who can fill in when regulars like O’Neal and Foster get banged up. If the continuous rumor that Coach Scott Skiles and Gordon clash is true, the Bulls (http://bulls.realgm.com/) get rid of Gordon and get a slightly less-talented, but similar player in Jackson.

Jackson isn’t the passer Gordon is, but Jackson can help on the glass more than Ben because of his height advantage over most two-guards. The Bulls (http://bulls.realgm.com/) then get Hassell, a heralded defender who can help them against tougher Eastern Conference opponents like Detroit (http://pistons.realgm.com/) and Miami (http://heat.realgm.com/).

Minnesota gets help at point guard, and gets a young body in Sweetney that can bang inside with KG for years to come. As in the first possibility, Minnesota (http://timberwolves.realgm.com/) would probably have to be coaxed into this deal as New York (http://knicks.realgm.com/) would need to be.

Maybe both of these trades are just wishful thinking, but if the Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) truly want to trade either Tinsley, or Jackson for that matter, a lot of thinking will have to be done.

Break out the Tylenol Donnie and pass some to Larry. You may plan to make only a few small moves this summer, but they’re likely to cause some pretty big headaches.

link: http://pacers.realgm.com/articles/88/20060601/the_tin_man/

rexnom
06-02-2006, 12:27 PM
I think the first trade he mentions is more realistic but I would LOVE the second trade. I LOVE Ben Gordon. LOVE him. Did I mention the love here?

Kegboy
06-02-2006, 01:01 PM
Considering that, as far as I know, "Tin Man" was never a real nickname, the whole basis of this article is flawed. :-p

I think both of those trades are too good to be true. Especially the second one. Plus, Grace might go PFFL if they traded for Jack.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-02-2006, 01:05 PM
Considering that, as far as I know, "Tin Man" was never a real nickname, the whole basis of this article is flawed. :-p

I think both of those trades are too good to be true. Especially the second one. Plus, Grace might go PFFL if they traded for Jack.

PFFL?

CableKC
06-02-2006, 01:13 PM
The way that I look at it.......any trade that involves Tinsley and SJax is gonna have the Pacers end up on the short end of the stick. This is because everyone and their grandmothers know that the Pacers desperately want to get rid of Tinsley and SJax. This means that if a team is wililng to take our garbage....we have to be prepared to take their garbage.

It just comes down to choosing the bag of garbage that smells the best and makes sense for Walsh/Bird's needs.

I don't mind doing either trades....but I know that the Pacers are in the passenger seat ( heck...I think we have been thrown in the trunk ) when it comes to moving either of them.....so IMHO....neither are realistic.

Kegboy
06-02-2006, 01:15 PM
PFFL?

Okay Hicks, now that the awards are done, you need to start a dictionary of terms that we can point newbies to.

Short and sweat, PFFL was a big name poster back at RATS who one day just completely flipped out, renounced the Pacers and Donnie Walsh in a huge, profanity laden rant, and was never seen again.

Whomever tells the complete version can tell you what RATS is.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-02-2006, 01:22 PM
Pacers Fan For Life is what it means I'm guessing?

beast23
06-02-2006, 01:35 PM
PFFL?The PD version of "postal", made famous by an immensely popular poster named PacerFanForLife, or "PFFL".

I don't know that the first proposal gives us the one really strong player that we would want in return for Tinsly and Jackson. But the second gives us Ben Gordon and a capable big man. It's probably too good to be true in that it gives us a starter and gets rid of the perceived knuckleheads... I'd do it immediately.

grace
06-02-2006, 02:46 PM
Plus, Grace might go PFFL if they traded for Jack.

I will make PFFL look like Mother Teresa if the Bulls trade Ben Gordon for Stephen Jackson and don't get a quality post player in the process.

I don't care what anybody says, that trade makes zero sense for the Bulls. If Skiles can't get along with Gordon he sure as :censored: can't get along with Jackson.

NuffSaid
06-02-2006, 04:46 PM
Considering that, as far as I know, "Tin Man" was never a real nickname, the whole basis of this article is flawed. :-p

I think both of those trades are too good to be true. Especially the second one. Plus, Grace might go PFFL if they traded for Jack.
Actually, we use "TinMan" over on the IndyStar/Pacers message board all the time when referring to Jamaal Tinsley. I've long suspected the media hypes read these message boards. :D ;)

Leisure Suit Larry
06-02-2006, 04:49 PM
Please tell me you are joking? The guy who writes the realgm articles is some college kid who is always on and gets his info from realgm and indystar boards.

grace
06-02-2006, 05:21 PM
I've long suspected the media hypes read these message boards. :D ;)

I'm sure they all have the next forum party marked on their calenders. I sure
imagine :kravitz: is hard at work trying to come up with a better disguise than "old guy with a laptop at Perkins" he used last time.

pizza guy
06-02-2006, 05:42 PM
It’s not often that a player’s nickname is actually a precise description of their career, but in Jamaal Tinsley’s case it couldn’t be more appropriate.

He has no heart?

http://www.tes.co.uk/upload/2113611/tinman.jpg

sixthman
06-02-2006, 10:03 PM
I don't think Jackson will be hard to trade for decent value, if that's what the P's want to do. But, Jamaal will.

Jack shows up every night and puts up decent stats. Jamaal's frequent breakdowns make it highly doubtful anyone will want to take on his long contract, without, at least, giving us a similar one back.

Lord Helmet
06-02-2006, 10:29 PM
Ben Gordon?

Sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pizza guy
06-02-2006, 11:21 PM
Ben Gordon?

Sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

me too

Jermaniac
06-02-2006, 11:41 PM
Very homerific trades Jermaniac thinks. But thats just what I think of course.

Trade Jackson to Minnesota for Trenton Hassell.
Keep Tinsley

Problems solved.

beast23
06-02-2006, 11:50 PM
Any plan that keeps Tinsley can't be deemed as "problem solved".

Remember the old saying, "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch"? Trade all the bad apples, i.e. knuckleheads, or we haven't even come close to solving the problem.

pizza guy
06-02-2006, 11:59 PM
Any plan that keeps Tinsley can't be deemed as "problem solved".

Remember the old saying, "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch"? Trade all the bad apples, i.e. knuckleheads, or we haven't even come close to solving the problem.

:stupid:

PacerPerspective
06-06-2006, 12:08 AM
Please tell me you are joking? The guy who writes the realgm articles is some college kid who is always on and gets his info from realgm and indystar boards.

Isn't that where most nicknames are born? The author isn't just some college kid either, I hear he's pretty talented....;)

BigDawg44
06-06-2006, 12:30 AM
so are you saying that you are the author?

Jermaniac
06-06-2006, 01:06 AM
Yes he wrote that.

Lord Helmet
06-06-2006, 04:11 AM
I like Tinsley, and I love his game, but, I'm not going to bank another season on his health.

No more, damnit. No more Tinsley in the lineup one night then missing the next game because of sinuses. I'm sick of it.

Sorry Jamaal.

The Pacers must rid themselves of Tinsley and Jackson. If they don't, they seriously damage another season and lose even more fans.

Since86
06-06-2006, 11:34 AM
Please tell me you are joking? The guy who writes the realgm articles is some college kid who is always on and gets his info from realgm and indystar boards.


There was an experiment, eventhough it wasn't scientific at all, about a year ago seeing if sports reporters check this board for trade info, and it actually turned out successful and turned into a mini-fight about how it shouldn't have been done.

To make a long story short, one poster said he heard a certain trade was in the making (that he and his coconspirators made up), and the next day that exact rumor was being reported nationally.

Believe it or not, so called "insiders" read forum boards, more specifically this one, for their info.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-06-2006, 11:56 AM
There was an experiment, eventhough it wasn't scientific at all, about a year ago seeing if sports reporters check this board for trade info, and it actually turned out successful and turned into a mini-fight about how it shouldn't have been done.

To make a long story short, one poster said he heard a certain trade was in the making (that he and his coconspirators made up), and the next day that exact rumor was being reported nationally.

Believe it or not, so called "insiders" read forum boards, more specifically this one, for their info.

What was the rumor?

Since86
06-06-2006, 11:58 AM
I forget the actual trade, but it was involving Toronto.

I think it had Bonner though....

I'll *try* to find the thread, but don't hold your breath.

EDIT: Looks like those threads were part of the ones that were lost. Maybe the experimenters could give more info.

Hicks
06-06-2006, 12:06 PM
The result never directly came like it was expected to. I wouldn't call it a success.

Frank Slade
06-06-2006, 02:07 PM
I forget the actual trade, but it was involving Toronto.

I think it had Bonner though....

I'll *try* to find the thread, but don't hold your breath.

EDIT: Looks like those threads were part of the ones that were lost. Maybe the experimenters could give more info.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16903&highlight=bonner

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16996&highlight=bonner


http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16959&highlight=bonner1

These are the thread that referenced the "rumor".. ;)

tdubb03
06-06-2006, 03:59 PM
I agree completely with CableKC.

Who's going to trade a legit player for a PG who had one good season, plays maybe 35 games a year and makes 7 million? No one. Well I guess maybe the Knicks.

However, I think Jax would have some value. You may not like his jawing with the refs and all of that, but no one can question his intensity. When he's on (which I admit he usually isn't) he's a great shooter. He's very underrated on D, I think. He's only 27/28. With a coach that would get on him he could be really good. I'd do a S&T with Miami for James Posey and a pick this year or next in a heartbeat. But, I'm in love with Posey.

I'm on the side that would like to see Jackson gone. With that said, I think there's a chance getting rid of him could be a blow to the team. With Reggie gone, this team has no heart, no desire to win. Say what you will about him, but Jackson's the closest we've got to that.

rel
06-06-2006, 04:20 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16903&highlight=bonner


Dang...that deal would have been great, knowing that the Raps have the first pick now