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Peck
06-02-2006, 01:51 AM
The team.

The good: When looking at last season it's easy to say that there was no good to be found, however we have to be real & find some of the good things. Danny Granger was a blessing sent down by the basketball Gods as a gift to our fans for the last 6 seasons of this team & in particular the years we were held hostage by nutball. I'm not over rating Danny, I don't expect him to be an all-world player next year or anything but he is a solid basketball player who appears to have a very high basketball I.Q.

Anthony Johnson is a player that you may or may not like but even the haters can't deny the fact that this is a guy who you can be proud of on your team. He has kicked around the minor leagues, several teams & even been the third guard in our rotation at the beginning of the season yet he just goes out & proves himself every time.

Croshere & Foster both had their normal seasons as well, each having a time where they exceeded their normal output. But they each were injured for several differant times as well.

The Bad:

We've been over this before so I won't elaborate on this but here is just a list of a few of the problems of our team from last season, in no particular order.

1. Ron Artest
2. Donnie Walsh/Larry Bird
3. Rick Carlisle
4. Stephen Jackson
5. Jamaal Tinsley
6. Jermaine O'Neal
7. Injuries
8. team chemisty
9. Lack of true talent
10. Lack of shooting
11. Lack of leadership
12. Lack of physical players
13. Lack of speed
14. Lack of penetration defense
15. Lack of post defense

I could go on but that is enough for now, if you want to add more feel free.

The Outlook:

I feel we are as far away from a title now as we were in the late 80's early 90's when we were just good enough to make the playoffs & get a mid first round draft pick every year & never an impact player.

One of the things I used to argue with people about back on the old star board was that sometimes it's not just what you do or don't do that impacts you. Sometimes things other people do have dire affects on your team & in our case I have a horrid feeling that we are living in the beggining of the LaBron dynasty with a few Wade titles thrown in there as well.

I wish I had faith that we were going to do something to catapolt us out of this but I fear that we just don't have the guns to make a major trade. Let's be honest nobody is going to give us gold for our trouble makers & we are probably going to have to package some of our good citizens or expiring contracts to make any kind of move at all. Which is fine if we can bring back some form of impact player, but I'm not sure how we do that?

For that matter the more & more I read from the old mouthpiece (God I wish I never would have read that season ending interview with the bunny & Walsh) the more & more I believe we are heading back into the days when we heard the words patience uttered over & over & we saw the phrases "no kneejerk trades" or "we don't make trades for the sake of trades".

I'm now becoming convinced that Carlisle will return, which I don't like but can live with but somebody explain how next season is going to be any differant to me. They cannot just hang their hats on the hopes that the team will now not be injured.

IMO, we are floating adrift without a rudder right now & very little steam in the engine. I get no sense whatsoever that there is direction flowing down from the top & I get the very sad feeling that the players are going to be given shape up or ship out speeches. That's all fine & dandy but that should have been done two seasons ago & now it's a little late.

We don't have the talent to compete with Detroit, Cleveland, Miami & I'm still convinced that the Bulls & Wizards would take us in a seven game series.

I guess what I'm saying is I have very little hope for a real chance next season or any season in the near future without seeing something done. If we just come back next season with one or two new players through draft picks & Rick is back I don't care what the regular season record is, we will not be legitimate title contenders. We will probably have a winning record, we will probably make the playoffs, but one or two round & that will be it.

We need something drastic to happen, whether it be a great draft pick, a new coach, a big trade, something, anything.

Also, I'm sorry to say this as well, but if they just come back as is next season with no changes & Jamaal & Jax still on the team. You will see a dead fieldhouse early & often. I'm even pretty much convinced that the fans are tired of Carlisle as well but I'm not sure they care so much about that.

Every five years or so the NBA changes & right now I think we are in the process of the next change. I just don't see us with the players to play at this level.

RON ARTEST
06-02-2006, 02:09 AM
The team.

The good: When looking at last season it's easy to say that there was no good to be found, however we have to be real & find some of the good things. Danny Granger was a blessing sent down by the basketball Gods as a gift to our fans for the last 6 seasons of this team & in particular the years we were held hostage by nutball. I'm not over rating Danny, I don't expect him to be an all-world player next year or anything but he is a solid basketball player who appears to have a very high basketball I.Q.

Anthony Johnson is a player that you may or may not like but even the haters can't deny the fact that this is a guy who you can be proud of on your team. He has kicked around the minor leagues, several teams & even been the third guard in our rotation at the beginning of the season yet he just goes out & proves himself every time.

Croshere & Foster both had their normal seasons as well, each having a time where they exceeded their normal output. But they each were injured for several differant times as well.

The Bad:

We've been over this before so I won't elaborate on this but here is just a list of a few of the problems of our team from last season, in no particular order.

1. Ron Artest
2. Donnie Walsh/Larry Bird
3. Rick Carlisle
4. Stephen Jackson
5. Jamaal Tinsley
6. Jermaine O'Neal
7. Injuries
8. team chemisty
9. Lack of true talent
10. Lack of shooting
11. Lack of leadership
12. Lack of physical players
13. Lack of speed
14. Lack of penetration defense
15. Lack of post defense

I could go on but that is enough for now, if you want to add more feel free.

The Outlook:

I feel we are as far away from a title now as we were in the late 80's early 90's when we were just good enough to make the playoffs & get a mid first round draft pick every year & never an impact player.

One of the things I used to argue with people about back on the old star board was that sometimes it's not just what you do or don't do that impacts you. Sometimes things other people do have dire affects on your team & in our case I have a horrid feeling that we are living in the beggining of the LaBron dynasty with a few Wade titles thrown in there as well.

I wish I had faith that we were going to do something to catapolt us out of this but I fear that we just don't have the guns to make a major trade. Let's be honest nobody is going to give us gold for our trouble makers & we are probably going to have to package some of our good citizens or expiring contracts to make any kind of move at all. Which is fine if we can bring back some form of impact player, but I'm not sure how we do that?

For that matter the more & more I read from the old mouthpiece (God I wish I never would have read that season ending interview with the bunny & Walsh) the more & more I believe we are heading back into the days when we heard the words patience uttered over & over & we saw the phrases "no kneejerk trades" or "we don't make trades for the sake of trades".

I'm now becoming convinced that Carlisle will return, which I don't like but can live with but somebody explain how next season is going to be any differant to me. They cannot just hang their hats on the hopes that the team will now not be injured.

IMO, we are floating adrift without a rudder right now & very little steam in the engine. I get no sense whatsoever that there is direction flowing down from the top & I get the very sad feeling that the players are going to be given shape up or ship out speeches. That's all fine & dandy but that should have been done two seasons ago & now it's a little late.

We don't have the talent to compete with Detroit, Cleveland, Miami & I'm still convinced that the Bulls & Wizards would take us in a seven game series.

I guess what I'm saying is I have very little hope for a real chance next season or any season in the near future without seeing something done. If we just come back next season with one or two new players through draft picks & Rick is back I don't care what the regular season record is, we will not be legitimate title contenders. We will probably have a winning record, we will probably make the playoffs, but one or two round & that will be it.

We need something drastic to happen, whether it be a great draft pick, a new coach, a big trade, something, anything.

Also, I'm sorry to say this as well, but if they just come back as is next season with no changes & Jamaal & Jax still on the team. You will see a dead fieldhouse early & often. I'm even pretty much convinced that the fans are tired of Carlisle as well but I'm not sure they care so much about that.

Every five years or so the NBA changes & right now I think we are in the process of the next change. I just don't see us with the players to play at this level.artest was a problem?
























just kidding i know he was a pain in the butt for you guys. i hope it works out for the pacers. everyone on this board is acting like they arent gonna be very good this coming season but they will win 50+ games next year. book it

Peck
06-02-2006, 02:19 AM
artest was a problem?
























just kidding i know he was a pain in the butt for you guys. i hope it works out for the pacers. everyone on this board is acting like they arent gonna be very good this coming season but they will win 50+ games next year. book it


There is a differance between being a 50 win team & a title contender. I could care less if we went 41-41 & made it to the finals as opposed to some 50 win team who everybody knows has no chance in hell in beating team X or Y or Z in the playoffs.

I have no doubt that the regular season record will be, as people have come to expect during the Walsh years, above average or maybe just slightly above average.

I want to win a title & barring that I want to know that we were one of 2 teams that could win a title.

Quoting Jermaine O'Neal & Larry Bird, "anything less is a failure".

I just don't feel like we are one of those two teams right now.

Kegboy
06-02-2006, 02:51 AM
I don't see anything I can disagree with here. While I never trust the "popular opinion" put forth by the media, even I can't deny that we're seeing a true change to the NBA in these playoffs. And while I don't agree with the notion that "offense first" is the way to go nowadays (just ask Detroit), I do believe we've seen the future of the East, and it's LeBron and Wade. It's gonna take something special to compete with that, and say what you will, there's nothing we have that's special.

Good thing I jumped on that Mike Brown bandwagon early, huh? :-p

Seriously, while I'm not ready to pull a Grace quite yet, if we truly don't do anything of consequence this summer, I'm certainly gonna be headed in that direction.

Will Galen
06-02-2006, 03:06 AM
We don't have the talent to compete with Detroit, Cleveland, Miami & I'm still convinced that the Bulls & Wizards would take us in a seven game series.

I've heard this before and I'm unconvinced for two reasons. One, we started last year as one of the favorites and the only player change was Ron for Peja. Peja isn't so shabby that we should drop off the map as everyone thinks.

Now I know you don't think much of management, but they have said they don't think we are that far off. Under the circumstances I agree with them. A couple moves and we could be right back in the hunt.

Two, we don't really know how good this team would be if they played a different style. And I'm convinced a different style is coming, because Bird wants to run.




We need something drastic to happen, whether it be a great draft pick, a new coach, a big trade, something, anything.


Drastic? I don't think any of those things would be drastic. Drastic would be doing something like trading the whole team. I do believe we need some good fortune though. Something like last year when Danny dropped to us. Not having so many injuries would also help immensely.

You know if we would have had a healthy team we could have had a championship or two with this team. That's spectulation though.

Eindar
06-02-2006, 03:39 AM
I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this one. Let's face it, Donnie Walsh has never been about titles, his MO is keeping the stands full and fielding a competitive team. I think we might see some changes based on the fact that Conseco attendance drops a little every year, but it's not like we're the Hawks or anything, so it will be surverys followed by small changes to get the fans interested again.

Ultimately, however, I think we're in for a long stretch of mediocre years, followed by a slide into the lottery. We've got decent talent, but it doesn't fit well together, and it's mostly in the frontcourt, in a league that values backcourt play more and more. I know that's a very depressing forecast, but it's true.

I hope we do something to shake things up, because it's awful knowing your team has no chance at a title this year, and no prospects in the near future.

owl
06-02-2006, 07:50 AM
Peck said..."Also, I'm sorry to say this as well, but if they just come back as is next season with no changes & Jamaal & Jax still on the team. You will see a dead fieldhouse early & often. I'm even pretty much convinced that the fans are tired of Carlisle as well but I'm not sure they care so much about that."


This and not winning a title are fairly even problems in my opinion.
But win or lose following the Pacers is a hobby and I will continue to
do so. As the fans say in Chicago, there is always next year.

microwave_oven
06-02-2006, 11:58 AM
You people are truely depressing.

I believe that if we could sign Peja, and get rid of the two knuckleheads for one good backcourt player, who is quick, then we would be off to a good start. Follow that up with letting Fred walk and signing Scott for cheap, and you have 4-5 roster positions to fill. Add in your two draft picks and sign a veteran big man, and you have a much better team than last year. This team will compete for a title next year IMO.

Leisure Suit Larry
06-02-2006, 11:59 AM
Wow, there really is a part 8.

ChicagoJ
06-02-2006, 12:22 PM
Ultimately, however, I think we're in for a long stretch of mediocre years, followed by a slide into the lottery. We've got decent talent, but it doesn't fit well together, and it's mostly in the frontcourt, in a league that values backcourt play more and more. I know that's a very depressing forecast, but it's true.

Yes it is. :suicide:

Gamble
06-02-2006, 12:30 PM
I don't think were contenders in the near future but I do think we'll give
everyone a run for there money.

IF we get rid of the attitudes
IF we rid ourselves of bad contracts
IF we get rid of the coach come this year or next
And finally find a leader to motivate and challenge the players.

To me this draft is perfect for us. The lottery picks are not impressive
so teams like chicago can't get star power and teams like us can still
find quality talent at the 17th spot. We ride together and Bird is going
to change our style of play to fit the new NBA.

Doug in CO
06-02-2006, 12:55 PM
One of the things I used to argue with people about back on the old star board was that sometimes it's not just what you do or don't do that impacts you. Sometimes things other people do have dire affects on your team & in our case I have a horrid feeling that we are living in the beggining of the LaBron dynasty with a few Wade titles thrown in there as well.

For that matter the more & more I read from the old mouthpiece (God I wish I never would have read that season ending interview with the bunny & Walsh) the more & more I believe we are heading back into the days when we heard the words patience uttered over & over & we saw the phrases "no kneejerk trades" or "we don't make trades for the sake of trades".


Amen. Amen. Amen. On this topic we are brothers in arms - because the bullet is coming.

Great post Peck.

brichard
06-02-2006, 01:43 PM
Since we are being real, lets talk about some challenges.

1. Trading our Nutballs for Suitable Replacements- This is going to be a tough task in my opinion. First of all, we have to find a team who wants our guys and secondarily they aren't going to give us gold for garbage. Our best scenario would involve a block buster, but b/c of item number 2. listed below, that probably won't happen.

2. Keeping butts in the seats- Blame Bird, Walsh, or the Simons, but the Pacers aren't willing to hit the skids before they improve. So our rebuilding process will probably be more gradual. If we lose one nutjob, we now have the ability to unload AC's contract which is coming up and maybe we are in a better position in a year to make more changes.

3. Injuries- If we are decimated like we have been in years past by injuries, nothing we will do makes a difference. I know some have blamed conditioning, and perhaps that is part of it. But I sure hope the basketball Gods give us a break this year. Everybody has injuries, but what we have endured the last several years is ridiculous.

Personally I think we are probably several years away from being the type of team that Peck and everybody else wants. We just have too many flawed players. We need more players like Granger. Again, not that he is spectacular, but he is solid in basically every aspect of the game.

So many of our current players are a combination of the following 1. Streaky, 2. Injury Prone, 3. One Dimensional with severe limitations at other aspects of the game, 4. Very short on basketball IQ, 5. Unwilling or unable to make others around them better.

It's going to take a coach, a leader, or a flush of the toilet to get this team back to where we were in the late 90's.

bulletproof
06-02-2006, 02:08 PM
I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this one. Let's face it, Donnie Walsh has never been about titles, his MO is keeping the stands full and fielding a competitive team. I think we might see some changes based on the fact that Conseco attendance drops a little every year, but it's not like we're the Hawks or anything, so it will be surverys followed by small changes to get the fans interested again.

I love when people say this. It's really telling. Do you know anyone that has achieved at a level Walsh (or Bird) has - that has set personal goals as high as they have and attained what they have? Do you honestly think that their operating software (DNA) allows them to settle? Do you honestly think that good is good enough for these guys? If you do, you don't know anyone like that.

DisplacedKnick
06-02-2006, 02:08 PM
Well, ultimately, IMO these are the moves you need to look at:

First, Danny Granger needs to be your SF so a Sign-and-Trade using Peja this summer should be a big option.

Second, Stephen Jackson needs to go. I don't happen to think he's the nutjob a lot of others do, but Indy's through with him.

Then you need to get, either through the draft or via trade:

1) A PG who can be just OK. AJ MAY even be that guy but I'd hate to bank my season on it. He needs to defend first, not turn the ball over second, be able to pass little third and hit the open shot when it's gift-wrapped for him.

2) An outside shooter - which is why trading Peja hurts. But he and Granger are both SF's. Shoving one of them into service at SG in anything but an emergency would be stupid. Well, unless you want to try for Phoenix East and play JO at C, Granger at PF ... nah.

3) A bruiser on defense. If he can score a little in the post that would be fine but he needs to defend the physical guys and board. Dale Davis II, or Charles Oakley - somebody along those lines.

You get those things and you're right back in it IF JO can stay healthy.

Does that mean you're a long ways from being a contender or close? Dunno - depends on how well you can get those pieces.

beast23
06-02-2006, 03:35 PM
The team....

I feel we are as far away from a title now as we were in the late 80's early 90's when we were just good enough to make the playoffs & get a mid first round draft pick every year & never an impact player....

Also, I'm sorry to say this as well, but if they just come back as is next season with no changes & Jamaal & Jax still on the team. You will see a dead fieldhouse early & often. I'm even pretty much convinced that the fans are tired of Carlisle as well but I'm not sure they care so much about that....

Every five years or so the NBA changes & right now I think we are in the process of the next change. I just don't see us with the players to play at this level.
With the roster we have today, we are as far away from a title as we were in the 80s and early 90s. But I believe that our biggest problems is the team chemistry problems due to the influence of the knuckleheads and that we are one or two players away being as competitive as we need to be.

I think we have one shot... and EXACTLY ONE SHOT, to get the boat headed toward the right direction in the near future, and that shot is this summer.

My fear is that if we do not trade Jackson and Tinsley, that their higher salaries going into 2007-2008, along with any behavioral and/or health problems might make them even more difficult, even impossible, to trade. If either causes a problem next season, I don't think the brass will have any other choice than to put them on the inactive list to get them away from other team members. Is it likely they could be traded after that?

Anyone that believes the Pacers can be contenders for a title next season is mistaken. And for next season anyway, that's the wrong goal. Goal #1 is to do what is necessary to make us competitive within our own conference.

I think we can do that if we get one starter back in return for whatever trade is made for Jackson and Tinsley. The current trade in another thread bringing back Gordon and Blount would be a winner.

But one thing is clear to me. To become an EC contender, something will have to be sacrificed. And I think what will be sacrificed is most of the remaining quality depth on our roster. We will end up with a decent starting 5, maybe even 6 or 7 players, but not much more.

Those that believe the fans will become even more alienated next season if Tinsley and Jackson are part of the team are right. I have attended games regularly since the Pacers very first season in the ABA. I have enjoyed attending games regularly with my wife since our marriage nearly 34 years ago. But with Artest and Jackson, my wife drew the line. As a result, we attended only 8-9 games this past pre-season, season and playoffs combined... a far cry from our normal 35-40 games.

If we as supposed die-hard fans take that position, then what about the casual non-season ticket holding fan that purchases tickets for a couple of games a year? The fans that the Pacers needed to help sell out games simply will quit attending.

The product on the floor must not only comprise a good and competitive team, it is even more important that they play with the sportsmanship and with the character as men that we have usually demanded here in Indy.

So, I believe this one individual summer is as important as any off-season in the history of our Pacers. Without some timely and intelligent decisions, it will probably be 4-5 years before we have a contender. And it will be 4-5 years before we start selling out the fieldhouse again.

Unclebuck
06-02-2006, 04:34 PM
Peck you are very depressing. I've lost my ability to be analytical because I'm too depressed

CableKC
06-02-2006, 05:25 PM
Question to you all....in order to move Tinsley and SJax....which IMHO....is one of the top priorities....would you do a firesale on both of them and just get back players ( probably with comprable long-term contracts ) but clearly a downgrade at the position?

or

Would you package them with a player like Foster, AJ or ( heavenforbid ) JONeal in order to try to turn "garbage" into "gold"?

I'm nearly at the point where I think they must go and would accept nearly any backup player with a similiar contract....JUST to see them gone.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2006, 07:40 AM
Question to you all....in order to move Tinsley and SJax....which IMHO....is one of the top priorities....would you do a firesale on both of them and just get back players ( probably with comprable long-term contracts ) but clearly a downgrade at the position?

or

Would you package them with a player like Foster, AJ or ( heavenforbid ) JONeal in order to try to turn "garbage" into "gold"?

I'm nearly at the point where I think they must go and would accept nearly any backup player with a similiar contract....JUST to see them gone.

You won't get much for Tinsley IMO - the injury problems are too much. Jackson's another story - solid on both sides of the ball, starter on a championship team, etc.

As for how you trade them, whatever works. You need role players more than superstars though.

Putnam
06-03-2006, 08:11 AM
With the roster we have today, we are as far away from a title as we were in the 80s and early 90s. But I believe that our biggest problems is the team chemistry problems due to the influence of the knuckleheads and that we are one or two players away being as competitive as we need to be.

I think we have one shot... and EXACTLY ONE SHOT, to get the boat headed toward the right direction in the near future, and that shot is this summer.

My fear is that if we do not trade Jackson and Tinsley, that their higher salaries going into 2007-2008, along with any behavioral and/or health problems might make them even more difficult, even impossible, to trade. If either causes a problem next season, I don't think the brass will have any other choice than to put them on the inactive list to get them away from other team members. Is it likely they could be traded after that?

Anyone that believes the Pacers can be contenders for a title next season is mistaken. And for next season anyway, that's the wrong goal. Goal #1 is to do what is necessary to make us competitive within our own conference.

I think we can do that if we get one starter back in return for whatever trade is made for Jackson and Tinsley. The current trade in another thread bringing back Gordon and Blount would be a winner.

But one thing is clear to me. To become an EC contender, something will have to be sacrificed. And I think what will be sacrificed is most of the remaining quality depth on our roster. We will end up with a decent starting 5, maybe even 6 or 7 players, but not much more.

Those that believe the fans will become even more alienated next season if Tinsley and Jackson are part of the team are right. I have attended games regularly since the Pacers very first season in the ABA. I have enjoyed attending games regularly with my wife since our marriage nearly 34 years ago. But with Artest and Jackson, my wife drew the line. As a result, we attended only 8-9 games this past pre-season, season and playoffs combined... a far cry from our normal 35-40 games.

If we as supposed die-hard fans take that position, then what about the casual non-season ticket holding fan that purchases tickets for a couple of games a year? The fans that the Pacers needed to help sell out games simply will quit attending.

The product on the floor must not only comprise a good and competitive team, it is even more important that they play with the sportsmanship and with the character as men that we have usually demanded here in Indy.

So, I believe this one individual summer is as important as any off-season in the history of our Pacers. Without some timely and intelligent decisions, it will probably be 4-5 years before we have a contender. And it will be 4-5 years before we start selling out the fieldhouse again.


This is a great post.

I'm wondering about the part about sacrificing depth. Does anyone have any reluctance to do this? I've seen several posts in other threads arguing for a rotation of 8 players -- in other words, a shorter bench. And Bird said in his press conference that the heavy use of "bench players" was the cause of fustration.

Going into this past season, great depth was one of the Pacers' supposed strengths. But depth wasn't enough to recover from the various problems. It was just enough to keep the team mediocre.

It seems to me that an $80 million payroll based on depth is a failed experiment.

Refitting the team is a big challenge, but I suggest that sacrificing depth is a card we should be happy to play, if possible.

Unclebuck
06-04-2006, 12:16 AM
Question: The Mavs have completely changed their team in the past 2 years. They still have Dirk but no one else. And look where they are now. Why can't the pacers do the same thing.

Also I see a lot of similarities between Josh Howard and Granger

SoupIsGood
06-04-2006, 12:19 AM
Also I see a lot of similarities between Josh Howard and Granger

Yes. I always REALLY wanted us to trade for Howard until we got Granger.

I was thinking.... what if JO made the same leap that Dirk has.

Could he and Granger be our own Dirk/Howard?

You would think, Hell No! Right....? Well, not too many predicted Dirk would toughen up and turn into this kind of player... hmmmm...

Arcadian
06-04-2006, 12:48 PM
Left out of the good was that we traded Artest. Beyond being rid of him it also forces us to change our roster which was built with Ron in mind. Stephen and Jeff are both players who benefited greatly from having Ron on the floor. Without Ron I don't see how these two can be kept as starters.

I know that the rumblings sound like nothing over the off-season is going to change but I'm going to give managament the benefit of seeing what they do this summer. I have to believe even Bird is smart enough to realize that changes are needed.

JayRedd
06-04-2006, 05:44 PM
Question to you all....in order to move Tinsley and SJax....which IMHO....is one of the top priorities....would you do a firesale on both of them and just get back players ( probably with comprable long-term contracts ) but clearly a downgrade at the position?

or

Would you package them with a player like Foster, AJ or ( heavenforbid ) JONeal in order to try to turn "garbage" into "gold"?

I'm nearly at the point where I think they must go and would accept nearly any backup player with a similiar contract....JUST to see them gone.

I'm in favor of "giving away" both of these guys to anyone that will take them, and hopefully getting a 2nd-year type guy with a little bit of upside. But, i DON'T want to get anyone back with a similar contract. I say trade them both to someone for an expiring contract and a young'n.

The biggest priority I would have as GM would be to get under the cap so we can make a run at one of the free agents in the Summer 07 (In case you're not aware, this is the potential "Class of 07": Lebron, DWade, Bosh, Carmelo, Dirk (opt-out), Pierce (opt-out), Chauncey, Ron Artest (opt out), Vince (opt-out), Hinrich, Josh Howard, Boris Diaw, TJ Ford, Leandro Barbosa, David West, Pietrus, Luke Ridnour, Jalen Rose, Chris Kaman, Darko, Mo Pete, Gerald Wallace (opt-out), Anderson Vareajo, Desmond Mason....In a word: WOW)

People seem to think that there's no way we could get under the cap, but if you get rid of Jamaal and SJax's long-term deals, that's $13-$15 million in each of the next couple years. Getting rid of this by trading for someone who will expire next year (i.e. Magloire, Jalen, etc.), not re-signing Peja, and re-signing Freddie to a reasonable (4 years/$24 mil) deal would be a HUGE stride in becoming a player in that free agent market. Obviously, it's unlikely we could get Wade or Bron, but Pierce, Carmelo or Vince would look great in Pacer blue. I really don't think it's a pie in the sky idea, and it would be a one-year reload rather than complete rebuild that would take longer than JO has left in his tank. This is really the only way I can see us becoming legit contenders again over the next four years.

Team would look like this at the start of 07-08:

JO ($19.7 mil)
'07 Free Agent (1st year of max/near-max deal)
Danny ($1.5 mil)
Harrison ($1.3 mil)
AJ ($2.9 mil)
Freddie ($5-6 mil)
Foster ($5.7 mil)
Sarunas ($4 mil)
re-sign Austin or similar mid-level exception type ($4-5 mil)
#17 pick this year--PG or Big ($1.5 mil)
1st Round pick next year ($2 mil)
Possible resign of the expiring contract we traded Jax/Tin for. Or a 2nd round pick (???)

12th Man Filler (<$1 mil)



Obviously, this isn't exact and the PG and Center needs aren't necessarilly settled (draft could help in this), and this sample roster is full of youth, but we need to get JO some REAL, elite NBA talent to make a run with. The '07 free agent class is the only real opportunity I can see to get this done. Because, I, personally don't think Peja can be part of the 1/2 punch for a contender guy, and I think Granger is ideally a third banana (think Josh Howard, Horace Grant, Byron Scott type). And if you think we're getting any real talent back for the slopfest trade chips we have in TinMan, Jax or Croshere, you're dreaming.

ChicagoJ
06-06-2006, 02:33 PM
I'm wondering about the part about sacrificing depth. Does anyone have any reluctance to do this? I've seen several posts in other threads arguing for a rotation of 8 players -- in other words, a shorter bench. And Bird said in his press conference that the heavy use of "bench players" was the cause of fustration.

Going into this past season, great depth was one of the Pacers' supposed strengths. But depth wasn't enough to recover from the various problems. It was just enough to keep the team mediocre.

It seems to me that an $80 million payroll based on depth is a failed experiment.

Refitting the team is a big challenge, but I suggest that sacrificing depth is a card we should be happy to play, if possible.

You're exactly right. Every time we begin the season or the playoffs talking about our depth, I automatically say to myself, "well then, our starters just aren't good enough to keep the bench players on the bench." And that's been the biggest problem throughout the DW-era for the Pacers. Our #1 through #3 guys have never quite been good enough.

Chuck? No.
Detlef? No.
Reggie? Maybe.
Rik? No.
Dale? No.
Jalen? No.
JO? No, at least not yet.
Brad? No.
Ron? No.

The only thing more over-rated than depth is the so-called importance of HCA in the later rounds of the playoffs.

Trader Joe
06-06-2006, 03:06 PM
You're exactly right. Every time we begin the season or the playoffs talking about our depth, I automatically say to myself, "well then, our starters just aren't good enough to keep the bench players on the bench." And that's been the biggest problem throughout the DW-era for the Pacers. Our #1 through #3 guys have never quite been good enough.

Chuck? No.
Detlef? No.
Reggie? Maybe.
Rik? No.
Dale? No.
Jalen? No.
JO? No, at least not yet.
Brad? No.
Ron? No.

The only thing more over-rated than depth is the so-called importance of HCA in the later rounds of the playoffs.

Agreed. I used to be a huge supporter of depth, but I have been awakened that all you reall need is a solid 6-7 man rotation where the guys on the bench are versatile and can play 2 or 3 positions. Throw in three other guys who are serviceable if needed fill out the roster with scrubs and you will be fine. We dont need to be two or three deep at every position just have two guys on the bench that can cover them.

Sollozzo
06-09-2006, 05:28 PM
I've heard this before and I'm unconvinced for two reasons. One, we started last year as one of the favorites and the only player change was Ron for Peja. Peja isn't so shabby that we should drop off the map as everyone thinks.




Started out last season as one of the favorites in whose minds? Pacer fans on here?

There were many of us who weren't sold on this team at all last year. I thought they would win the first round, then get knocked out. How people could predict that a team that went through as much as the Pacers did in 04-05 plus a team that lost its 18 year legend could make the finals is beyond me.

I don't think many people around the league had the Pacers going too far last season. Teams that go through a traumatic event and all of the suspensions don't just magically put it behind them and go to the NBA finals.

Most knew it would come down to Miami and Detroit again in the east. The Pacers weren't in that class.

Sollozzo
06-09-2006, 05:40 PM
I don't see anything I can disagree with here. While I never trust the "popular opinion" put forth by the media, even I can't deny that we're seeing a true change to the NBA in these playoffs. And while I don't agree with the notion that "offense first" is the way to go nowadays (just ask Detroit), I do believe we've seen the future of the East, and it's LeBron and Wade. It's gonna take something special to compete with that, and say what you will, there's nothing we have that's special.

Good thing I jumped on that Mike Brown bandwagon early, huh? :-p

Seriously, while I'm not ready to pull a Grace quite yet, if we truly don't do anything of consequence this summer, I'm certainly gonna be headed in that direction.


What "true change?" High Offensive Superstars like Nowitzki and Wade taking their teams far? That's not a change at all. Getting to the finals and winning it has always been about having a top offensive superstar that can put the team on his back.

Detroit was an exception to the rule. Detroit is the only team in modern NBA history to win a title with several "very good players" with a defensive mindset. If you want to build a team like Detroit, good luck. It would be impossible find players like that and make it work like they did. We won't see a team outside of the Pistons win that way for a long long time.

1999, 2003, 2005: Spurs, Duncan
2000-2002: Lakers, Shaq & Kobe
1991-1993, 1996-1998: Bulls, Jordan
1994, 1995: Rockets, Hakeem

In the 80's, the Celtics, Lakers and Sixers all won titles. Bird, Johnson, Jabbar, Erving...etc.

The Pistons won in 89 and 90 with the "team" mindset that won them a title in 04. But still, Dumars and Thomas could certainly kill on the offensive end when called upon.

I think the pattern is clear. 95% of the time since teh NBA was born, high offensive superstars are what win a championship. Defense may win 55 or 60 games, but offense is what wins in the playoffs. Notice how all of the top moments in NBA playoff history are offense related moments. You can maybe stop some superstars in the regular season, but it's impossible to stop the best players come playoff time.

Wade, Lebron, Dirk.......A new generation of players, certainly......But they're just picking up the torch from what players have done since the league was created.

ABADays
06-09-2006, 05:55 PM
The sad thing about what follows is that I don't disagree with much of anything that is posted on this thread. But, between the Pacers and the Colts I am freaking tired of giving OTHER teams a run for their money. I am tired of pretenders.