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owl
05-29-2006, 08:46 AM
It seems there is a very real chance Chicago will be trading one or both
of its picks for a bigman, possibly with LA.

Another trading partner is Phoenix and Shawn Marion.

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm


owl

rel
05-29-2006, 09:10 AM
It seems there is a very real chance Chicago will be trading one or both
of its picks for a bigman, possibly with LA.

Another trading partner is Phoenix and Shawn Marion.

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm


owl

Marion on the bulls :(

he'd be a pretty good fit there i think

Unclebuck
05-29-2006, 09:38 AM
Here is the whole article


http://www.dailyherald.com/search/printstory.asp?id=194207


Marion, Odom may be Bulls’ best chance for summer trade
By Mike McGraw
Daily Herald Sports Writer
Posted Monday, May 29, 2006

Before anyone gets carried away and starts calling the Bulls-Heat series the real Eastern Conference finalsæ…

There is no question Bulls general manager John Paxson and coach Scott Skiles would love to add an experienced player who could kick the team beyond the first round of the playoffs.

Of course, a suitable trade may not come along. Of the names most often mentioned, Kevin Garnett and Chris Bosh won’t be available. Jermaine O’Neal isn’t worth the money.

When the Bulls look around to see if they can turn the No. 2 draft pick into a valuable veteran, two names to keep in mind are Shawn Marion and Lamar Odom.

There is talk around the NBA that the Phoenix Suns may be willing to move Marion this summer. At first glance, the idea seems absurd, since the 28-year-old forward is coming off consecutive third-team all-NBA honors.

But here’s the theory: The Suns’ payroll is already close to $60 million for next season, just below luxury-tax threshold. The team also has a new owner, Robert Sarver, who paid a high price to gain control from the Colangelo family.

The Suns expect to have Amare Stoudemire back from a knee injury next year, and they found a capable small forward in Boris Diaw, who won the most-improved-player award and hit the winning shot against Dallas in Game 1 of the Western Conference finals.

Marion is owed about $48.5 million over the next three years, so the Suns might be willing to make a trade if they can get a big man in return and lose a few million in salary. Trimming the payroll would help Phoenix re-sign Diaw and guard Leandro Barbosa, who are eligible for extensions.

The Bulls could send their two first-round draft picks to Phoenix for Marion, which would give the Suns a shot at LaMarcus Aldridge or Tyrus Thomas with the No. 2 selection and also lower their payroll by about $10 million.

Would the Suns be interested in such a deal? Hard to say, but former Phoenix general manager Bryan Colangelo is sitting in Toronto with the No. 1 pick and might jump on the same trade if it’s available.

Skiles coached Marion, who grew up in North Chicago, early in his career. But Marion may not necessarily be a slam-dunk acquisition for the Bulls.

Marion’s statistics (21.8 points, 11.8 rebounds this season) have been reasonably consistent, but his field-goal percentage skyrocketed when point guard Steve Nash showed up in Phoenix.

The key questions for the Bulls would be whether Marion can be as valuable without Nash or if he’s worth a $17.1 million salary in the 2008-09 season. Marion’s strongest suit is his athleticism and drive. He’s great on the fastbreak and tough to keep off the offensive boards, but he isn’t really a go-to offensive player.

The Bulls haven’t had any serious discussions with the Los Angeles Lakers about Odom. But the Bulls would love to plug him in at power forward, and it seems apparent that the 6-foot-10 Odom isn’t meshing well with Kobe Bryant.

Odom averaged 17.1 points and 9.7 rebounds in 2003-04, his lone season with Miami. He scored 14.8 points for the Lakers this year, shooting a career-high 48.1 percent.

The trouble here is finding a deal that would suit both sides. It’s hard to imagine Lakers coach Phil Jackson endorsing Odom for the No. 2 pick, since he’s looking to make quick progress. The Lakers could gain around $10 million in cap room for 2007 from that deal.

Perhaps the Lakers feel Tyson Chandler could improve their interior defense. Chandler, Chris Duhon and the No. 16 pick for Odom is an idea, though Chandler has more money left on his contract than Odom’s $40.6 million over three years.

Another obvious issue for the Bulls when exploring any trade this summer is why give up the No. 2 pick for a forward when there is a good chance they could sign Atlanta free agent Al Harrington (18.6 points, 6.9 rebounds) outright without giving up any assets.

There will be few easy decisions for Paxson this summer.

Hicks
05-29-2006, 09:59 AM
Jermaine O’Neal isn’t worth the money.

Ouch.

Unclebuck
05-29-2006, 10:15 AM
Ouch.



Yes I noticed that also

Mourning
05-29-2006, 11:01 AM
Quote:
"Jermaine O’Neal isn’t worth the money."


Ouch.

Yes I noticed that also

What's so strange about that?

Gamble
05-29-2006, 11:08 AM
THe powers at be are shifting in the East. ITs kind of scary if you think
about the Bulls and the Raptors are gaining strength and the Pacers
are slipping back slowly. The thing that bothers me the most is that
we simply won't change to a athletic team. I'll give Donnie credit in
saying that he tried but it obivious we are not commited to build around
the rules of the NBA.

SoupIsGood
05-29-2006, 11:51 AM
Odom on the Bulls does nothing for them, and Marion isnt getting traded.

Bball
05-29-2006, 12:04 PM
THe powers at be are shifting in the East. ITs kind of scary if you think
about the Bulls and the Raptors are gaining strength and the Pacers
are slipping back slowly.

Slowly? :cry:

-Bball

Anthem
05-29-2006, 02:16 PM
Hey, if the Bulls got Marion, they wouldn't need Noc anymore, right?

Tom White
05-29-2006, 02:24 PM
Ouch.

Sometimes, the truth hurts.

Robertmto
05-29-2006, 03:17 PM
Is JO losing respect everywhere?

Unclebuck
05-29-2006, 03:39 PM
JO's tendency to get injured really hurts his trade value, that more than anything

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 03:40 PM
JO's tendency to get injured really hurts his trade value, that more than anything

I agree with that, but I also wonder how much JO's imaturity hurts it as well...

Unclebuck
05-29-2006, 03:43 PM
I agree with that, but I also wonder how much JO's imaturity hurts it as well...



It doesn't help, but I don't think JO is thought to be a bad guy around the league

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 03:49 PM
It doesn't help, but I don't think JO is thought to be a bad guy around the league

I didnt mean as in a "bad" guy, although I do think that [sadly] he will always be stuck with the stigma of November 19th.

I meant what I said in terms of he sometimes puts his foot in his mouth and says to much when it would be better to just let his game do the speaking for him.

8.9_seconds
05-29-2006, 04:39 PM
Ouch.


I said the same EXACT thing when I read that.

Slick Pinkham
05-29-2006, 05:14 PM
I didnt mean as in a "bad" guy, although I do think that [sadly] he will always be stuck with the stigma of November 19th.

Judging by the fans of other teams that I know (mostly Heat fans and Celtics fans) JO doesn't carry much stigma from 11/19.

The lasting image is Artest and Jackson in the stands, and that's about all.

Nobody cares what Ben Wallace did before (unfortunately) or what Jermaine did after.

gilpdawg
05-29-2006, 05:31 PM
Ouch.
Well, it's true ya know.

Jermaniac
05-29-2006, 06:08 PM
If Jermaine aint worth the money, then KG aint worth it either.

Anxiety
05-29-2006, 06:22 PM
If Jermaine aint worth the money, then KG aint worth it either.


No player in the NBA is worth what they make but if you are trying to put KG and JO on the same level then pass over whatever you are smoking bud.

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 06:36 PM
No player in the NBA is worth what they make but if you are trying to put KG and JO on the same level then pass over whatever you are smoking bud.

Why?

I admit KG may be a little better, but its not by much.

Look, I have been as hard on JO as one can be, and frankly I still wont lose much sleep if he is traded, but I dont see what there is to laugh about when someone says they are on the same level.

They both play a different kind of style, and KG a little more range and better ball handling, but JO took his team (along with Artest) to the NBA finals and also took the team to the ECF. What does KG have to show for the playoffs? It was an accomplishment when he was able to get his squad out of the first round a few years ago..........

KG and JO are on the same level, and that is what makes JO such a hard player for me to understand. He has the skills, he certainilly gets paid "franchise" money, but so far he has not lived up to being the "franchise" player that we need here. Granted not all of that if his fault.

But I fail to see what is laughable about comparing the two.

heywoode
05-29-2006, 06:48 PM
When did JO take a team to the Finals?

He is about 70% of Garnett. Garnett can handle the ball better, he can shoot better, he can pass better, he can defend better, he can REBOUND better....

What CAN'T he do better than JO?

I like JO and all, and I don't want to trade him unless it is for Bosh or KG. That still doesn't change the fact that Garnett is much more a complete and proven player than JO.

Don't forget about that pesky MVP trophy that Garnett has also...

Jermaniac
05-29-2006, 06:50 PM
When did JO take a team to the Finals?
When did Kevin Garnett?

heywoode
05-29-2006, 06:53 PM
When did Kevin Garnett?

I never said that he did.

He is still much better than JO.

Jermaniac
05-29-2006, 07:06 PM
The guy is so much better he lead his team to the 6th pick in this years draft. AMAZING. I hope Danny turns out as good as KG so he can lead us to the lottery every year.

heywoode
05-29-2006, 07:11 PM
The guy is so much better he lead his team to the 6th pick in this years draft. AMAZING. I hope Danny turns out as good as KG so he can lead us to the lottery every year.

With JO at the helm of the T'wolves, they would've had the number ONE pick.

You can't solely judge either of them on what level they raise their team to...Individually, there is no comparison except for salaries, and that is the Pacers fault for giving JO too much money.

Call me Garnettiac, but I would take him over JO any day of the week.

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 07:15 PM
When did JO take a team to the Finals?

He is about 70% of Garnett. Garnett can handle the ball better, he can shoot better, he can pass better, he can defend better, he can REBOUND better....

What CAN'T he do better than JO?

I like JO and all, and I don't want to trade him unless it is for Bosh or KG. That still doesn't change the fact that Garnett is much more a complete and proven player than JO.

Don't forget about that pesky MVP trophy that Garnett has also...

Notice I never used the wordage "led" because he didnt. Artest and Reggie were just as big of a factor that season (along with Mel-Mel to a lesser extent) but JO was a huge part of that team. Team being the key phrase. That year we went to the finals as a team, that was a great displa of team basketball.

Also, dont forget JO was 3rd in MVP rankings that year. Not all that bad.

I will give you a better shooter (range wise) and better rebounder, but I dont buy the argument KG is a better passer or defender then JO. JO used to really be bad as passing out of any kind of pressure, but he has really improved in that department.

Like I said, I wont argue KG is a better player, but they are both on the same level. I am not sure how KG is "more proven", but Ill take a trip to the finals and multiple deep runs in the playoffs over what KG has done....

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 07:16 PM
With JO at the helm of the T'wolves, they would've had the number ONE pick.

You can't solely judge either of them on what level they raise their team to...Individually, there is no comparison except for salaries, and that is the Pacers fault for giving JO too much money.

Call me Garnettiac, but I would take him over JO any day of the week.

On pure skills alone, I think 99.99% of people would agree with you.

Anxiety
05-29-2006, 07:16 PM
Jermainiac don't tell me that if you were starting a team today you'd pick JO over KG.

Jermaniac
05-29-2006, 07:18 PM
Jermainiac don't tell me that if you were starting a team today you'd pick JO over KG.
Yep

Anxiety
05-29-2006, 07:37 PM
Yep

And I thought Rob Babcock sucked as a GM.

heywoode
05-29-2006, 08:07 PM
Notice I never used the wordage "led" because he didnt. Artest and Reggie were just as big of a factor that season (along with Mel-Mel to a lesser extent) but JO was a huge part of that team. Team being the key phrase. That year we went to the finals as a team, that was a great displa of team basketball.

Also, dont forget JO was 3rd in MVP rankings that year. Not all that bad.

I will give you a better shooter (range wise) and better rebounder, but I dont buy the argument KG is a better passer or defender then JO. JO used to really be bad as passing out of any kind of pressure, but he has really improved in that department.

Like I said, I wont argue KG is a better player, but they are both on the same level. I am not sure how KG is "more proven", but Ill take a trip to the finals and multiple deep runs in the playoffs over what KG has done....

JO wasn't on the only NBA Finals team the Pacers have had. When did JO play in the Finals? The team you speak of, the 61 win team, got beat by the Pistons in the ECF...

JO has improved at passing out of the double team, but he now turns the ball over alot while trying to pass out too much. I think he will continue to improve, but he isn't at the KG level of passing yet.

KG is more proven because he has played at a consistently high level for longer, been less injury-prone, and been more of a leader than JO. He has shown a ton of maturity for what he has had to deal with in Minnesota. I hesitate to think how JO would handle such adversity.

Don't get me wrong, I think JO is a very good player. I just don't think he is comparable to KG, except when it comes to salaries.

Fireball Kid
05-29-2006, 08:14 PM
heywoode, your just wasting your time. He can't be reasoned with when it comes to Jermaine O'Neal. No one on this planet can convince him that Kevin Garnett is a better player.

heywoode
05-29-2006, 08:23 PM
heywoode, your just wasting your time. He can't be reasoned with when it comes to Jermaine O'Neal. No one on this planet can convince him that Kevin Garnett is a better player.

Nah, it's not a waste of time...

I'm open to hearing good reasons why Jermaine is better, or at least on the same level...

Jermaniac
05-29-2006, 08:34 PM
-Better in the post
-Just as good on D
-Better shotblocker
-When Rick started running a offense that allowed Jermaine to show his passing ability, Just as good of a passer
-Just as good of a leader. Ask Reggie who the leader was the last few years.

They are on the same level.

heywoode
05-29-2006, 08:48 PM
-Better in the post
-Just as good on D
-Better shotblocker
-When Rick started running a offense that allowed Jermaine to show his passing ability, Just as good of a passer
-Just as good of a leader. Ask Reggie who the leader was the last few years.

They are on the same level.

-No way, no day.
-Nope.
-close here, but still like KG better
-Nope. He's getting better, but JO's still not a better passer.
-Nope. This one is laughable. Reggie was trying to pass the leadership to Jermaine, and kept having to refer to Jermaine as the leader. Point here is that people would continually go to Reggie with leadership type questions and he kept having to tell them that it was Jermaine's team. No one had to tell anyone that the T'wolves are (and always were) KG's team.

Jermaniac
05-29-2006, 08:58 PM
See thats the thing you got all that from some ESPN Fastbreak show, I saw the games for myself and decided. You need Stephen A Smith to tell you who was better. Why do you let TV dictate who you like and dont like?

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 09:11 PM
JO wasn't on the only NBA Finals team the Pacers have had. When did JO play in the Finals? The team you speak of, the 61 win team, got beat by the Pistons in the ECF...

JO has improved at passing out of the double team, but he now turns the ball over alot while trying to pass out too much. I think he will continue to improve, but he isn't at the KG level of passing yet.

KG is more proven because he has played at a consistently high level for longer, been less injury-prone, and been more of a leader than JO. He has shown a ton of maturity for what he has had to deal with in Minnesota. I hesitate to think how JO would handle such adversity.

Don't get me wrong, I think JO is a very good player. I just don't think he is comparable to KG, except when it comes to salaries.

You're right, I was mistaken. I dont know why I thought that JO was on the 2000 team.

I agree KG is at a different level, but I havent seen any of the "leadership" you say he has shown. I agree JO being injury prone has really hurt his value, that is one big area where I think KG has a advantage over him.

I really hate arguing over player ratings, but I still think they are on the same level. Just my .02, but if I was starting a team KG would be 1A and JO would be 1B.

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 09:12 PM
heywoode, your just wasting your time. He can't be reasoned with when it comes to Jermaine O'Neal. No one on this planet can convince him that Kevin Garnett is a better player.

Wait, which "he" are you refering to? me?

Cause I have actually taken critism from some people for being to hard on JO, also known as being a "hater".

heywoode
05-29-2006, 09:37 PM
See thats the thing you got all that from some ESPN Fastbreak show, I saw the games for myself and decided. You need Stephen A Smith to tell you who was better. Why do you let TV dictate who you like and dont like?

I occasionally visit ESPN.com to catch scores and read headlines without having to be spoon-fed a half hour of SportsCenter to find out what I want to know, but other than that, I don't have much time for ESPN.

I went to 12 of the 44 games at Conseco this year and watched every game I wasn't at. I have a pretty decent idea of JO's abilities. I let the play of the players dictate who I believe to be better. If you did that, you would realize the truth. I have no problem with you thinking JO is better. I simply know it isn't the truth.

BlueNGold
05-29-2006, 09:42 PM
See thats the thing you got all that from some ESPN Fastbreak show, I saw the games for myself and decided. You need Stephen A Smith to tell you who was better. Why do you let TV dictate who you like and dont like?

KG is a top 10 player. JO is somewhere around #15-20. To be sure, the Pacers would definitely trade JO for KG any day of the week and twice on Sundays. There are many reasons for this including KG's intangibles (e.g. maturity, leadership, etc.)

Also, KG statistically dominates JO. Stats are not the be-all end-all, but when there is such an across the board difference, they carry some weight.

For example:

FG%: KG career FG% is 49.3; JO is 46.5; KG last 2 years > 50%
FT%: KG career FT% is 77.3; JO is 69.3
Rebounds: KG 12-13; JO 9-10; KG does play a couple more mpg, but that does not explain the difference of 3 rpg on average
Assists: KG 4-6; JO 2-3
KG has more steals
KG has lower turnovers, lower # fouls...even while playing more minutes.

heywoode
05-29-2006, 09:44 PM
You're right, I was mistaken. I dont know why I thought that JO was on the 2000 team.

I agree KG is at a different level, but I havent seen any of the "leadership" you say he has shown. I agree JO being injury prone has really hurt his value, that is one big area where I think KG has a advantage over him.

I really hate arguing over player ratings, but I still think they are on the same level. Just my .02, but if I was starting a team KG would be 1A and JO would be 1B.

Garnett isn't a greatly effective leader either, given the level of (or lack of) success he has brought to Minnesota. I agree that he isn't the kind of leader Jordan was, or Shaq is. Players like that bring success with them and that is one thing that can be seen as a negative with KG.

There are a few players that I would take over JO if I was starting a team, but not many. JO is a very good player who certainly has the potential to be a superstar. He has the talent. He has the personality. He has the intelligence. It is just a matter of patience and getting and staying healthy...and maybe a little luck.

I would be happy to have JO as part of a team I was building, and I am happy to have him as a member of the Pacers.

They are both All-Stars, without a doubt. That is a pretty good level to be on!

vapacersfan
05-29-2006, 09:57 PM
Just to clarify, when I said 1A and 1B, I meant it relation to JO and KG.

If I were starting a team from scratch I would think I would tkae a D.Wade and maybe a (old healthy) T-Mac or Iverson over JO....but thankfully for many of the posters here at PD I will not be running the Pacers, or any NBA team, in the immidiate future :-p

microwave_oven
05-29-2006, 11:53 PM
I think you have all missed the point here. JO is not worth the money, but Lamar Odom is? :huh:

rexnom
05-30-2006, 12:24 AM
I think you have all missed the point here. JO is not worth the money, but Lamar Odom is? :huh:
I agree with this. And the funny thing is that the Bulls need a low-postt presence like crazy. IMO, for the Bulls, JO is more worth the mone than both Marion and Odom. That's why I always thought that we could probably get a lot from the Bulls if we listened to trade offers. I would definitely trade with them. They have much more interesting talent than the Warriors

In regards to the KG debate, right now, KG is better. But I could either way in terms of a trade. For KG we'll probably have to offer more than just JO. In addition to that, I think JO will be back with a vengeance next year.

Will Galen
05-30-2006, 12:37 AM
I think you have all missed the point here. JO is not worth the money, but Lamar Odom is? :huh:

It depends. Next years salaries.

Odom $12,489,000

Marion $15,070,000

JO $18,067,500

microwave_oven
05-30-2006, 12:43 AM
granted...5.5 million is a lot of money between the two, but who is Lamar Odom? Oh he's that guy that played with Kobe. Who is Jermaine O'Neal? Oh he's the face of the franchise known as the Indiana Pacers. Lamar Odom is nothing compared to Jermaine. Jermaine, when healthy, deserves his salary (by NBA standards). When Lamar is healthy, he is that grossly overpaid guy that plays next to Kobe.

Anthem
05-30-2006, 12:49 AM
It depends. Next years salaries.

Odom $12,489,000

Marion $15,070,000

JO $18,067,500
Wow, I didn't realize Marion was making that much money.

Talk about overpaid. And I really like Shawn Marion.

SoupIsGood
05-30-2006, 12:51 AM
Wow, I didn't realize Marion was making that much money.

Talk about overpaid. And I really like Shawn Marion.

He's a 21-12 player. No way in heck is he overpaid.

rexnom
05-30-2006, 12:54 AM
He's a 21-12 player. No way in heck is he overpaid. He's a max guy earning max dollar. Seems fair to me. The Suns would be nowhere and losing 3-0 to the Mavs if he weren't there right now. I can't see why they would trade him.

8.9_seconds
05-30-2006, 12:57 AM
I love JO, but I would trade him for Marion in a heartbeat.

microwave_oven
05-30-2006, 01:03 AM
I believe that JO is more valuable than Marion. Matrix is good in that system, but if he comes to the East, he won't put up JO numbers, let alone his current numbers.

8.9_seconds
05-30-2006, 01:18 AM
I believe that JO is more valuable than Marion. Matrix is good in that system, but if he comes to the East, he won't put up JO numbers, let alone his current numbers.


I see what your saying, but I can't say that I agree. I think that Shawn is just a flat out good player. His shooting and decision making are slightly above JO and I think the he would be + rather than a -.

Anthem
05-30-2006, 01:21 AM
I believe that JO is more valuable than Marion. Matrix is good in that system, but if he comes to the East, he won't put up JO numbers, let alone his current numbers.
My thoughts exactly.

BoomBaby31
06-02-2006, 01:49 AM
Odom on the Bulls does nothing for them, and Marion isnt getting traded.

Agree. Odom is the best he is going to be under Phil Jackson. Odom is just gaining confidence to shoot the ball but, he won't fit in the Bulls Offense. Marion isn't being traded, for one who does the bulls have to even entice the Suns. NO ONE.

Eindar
06-02-2006, 04:00 AM
The most valuable thing about Marion is he can put up 21 and 11 from the SF position, allowing you to have a PF or C who is a poor rebounder. For instance, he would have been a lifesaver on a team with Rik Smits. Also, when you need to go small, he can move over to PF and you lose nothing. That's where his true value lies.

As for Odom, I really like him. He's got excellent court vision, handles the ball well, and has some moves in the post. He can also play either SF or PF, but I think ultimately his best position will be as a PF.

JO is definitely better than Odom, but he also makes more money. I'd say JO and Marion are roughly equal. For Chicago's system, I think Odom would be the best fit, due to his ability to post up and pass for open shots.

sixthman
06-02-2006, 08:36 PM
and that is the Pacers fault for giving JO too much money.


Had the Pacers not given JO the max, he would have been out of Indiana and in San Antonio, or wherever. Pacers did what they needed to do. To blame the Pacers now for re-signing JO is way off base.

owl
06-02-2006, 10:43 PM
And San Antonio would be going to the finals this year.

Jermaniac
06-02-2006, 11:13 PM
If Jermaine signed with the Spurs, the Spurs would never lose a game.

Parker-Gino-Bowen-JO-Timmy = UGLY.

Glad he stayed with us though.