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Unclebuck
05-28-2006, 01:27 PM
I hope Jermaniac doesn't read this. But if you believe this "insider", Rick, Peja and Granger are staying and maybe no one else.

I've highlighted the part about the Pacers and brought it to the front of the column.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/v-pfriendly/story/421482p-355845c.html

New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
The No. 1 Priority

Sunday, May 28th, 2006


Like Larry Brown, Indiana's Rick Carlisle is currently involved in pre-draft workouts. But the difference is that while Brown is going to depart whenever Jim Dolan gives the word, Carlisle, who was on thin ice this past season, is apparently staying on. The Pacers' massive housecleaning plan includes exporting Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley and just about everybody else. Two players staying, barring a change, are Peja Stojakovic and Danny Granger.


One possible destination for Indy's O'Neal: Golden State, in a package starting with Troy Murphy. "A lot of teams out there like our players," said Golden State GM Rod Higgins. Besides Murphy, the Pacers like Ike Diogu and Mickael Pietrus.






We witnessed the dawn of a new era in the NBA this past week - and we're not talking about the dethroning of the San Antonio Spurs. For the first time in the Toronto Raptors' inglorious history, they won the draft lottery.


"Normally, we go backwards," said Jim Kelly, the team's long-time player personnel director. "We were just hoping we wouldn't lose ground, for once."

Hey, everybody gets lucky once in a while. The Raptors were barred from getting the No. 1 pick when they came into the league in 1995 and have never drafted higher than No. 2 (Marcus Camby in 1996). But now they can accelerate their rebuilding campaign. With the draft bereft of a franchise player who can make an immediate impact - that comes next year with Indianapolis high schooler and Ohio State recruit Greg Oden, ineligible for this year's draft - the Raptors are prime candidates to trade the pick.

They'd like to move down to No. 4, currently occupied by Portland, which owned the worst record this season and came up the big lottery loser. Gonzaga's Adam Morrison would help Portland turn around its fortunes, on and off the court. But Morrison probably won't be available at No. 4, so the Raptors might have themselves a trading partner. If Toronto can get a pick in next year's draft, already being touted as better than this June's, that would be ideal.

"There's no clear-cut No. 1 player this year, and if you asked three or four teams who they'd take at No. 1, you might get three or four different answers," Kelly said. "So we expect some action if we decide to move it."

At this early stage, Toronto doesn't know how far it will move down. But the Raptors are sending out strong signals that they'd like to get UConn's point guard Marcus Williams. The best pure point in this draft, Williams has drawn comparisons to Mark Jackson, but is considered faster than the ex-Knick.

The new man in charge in Toronto, Bryan Colangelo, wants a playmaker who looks to distribute the ball first to Chris Bosh and Williams' ex-UConn teammate Charlie Villanueva. Incumbent Mike James, a free agent, will be moving on this summer. So, unless it's a smokescreen, Williams is Toronto's leading choice to fill the role.

The Raptors would even take Williams as high as No. 4, a reach on most other team's draft boards. But as the Suns' GM, Colangelo sometimes took players higher than other teams had them projected, most notably Shawn Marion, at No. 9 in 1999.

The Bulls and Bobcats, drafting second and third, respectively, are set at point guard, with Kirk Hinrich and Raymond Felton. So they have no need for Williams.

"Williams isn't a jet like Chris Paul," said Kelly, referring to the Hornets' Rookie of the Year. "But he has good size and strength and he has a presence on the floor. He can deliver the ball to your big people. And he has a lot of big-game experience."

The Raptors haven't played in many big games. But who knows? In this new era, they could find themselves back in the playoffs next season after a four-year hiatus.

Cuban off the Mark

It's not really a new era for Dallas, even if Mark Cuban was saying as much after his Mavs ended the Spurs' bid for their first repeat title on the strength of Dirk Nowitzki's landmark series and an ill-advised foul at the end of regulation in Game 7 by Manu Ginobili.

"I told Dirk, did you see that? It just ran out of the door. The monkey that's been our back for so long, it's gone," Cuban said.

He wishes. This isn't Isiah Thomas' Pistons finally dethroning Larry Bird's Celtics, or even Michael Jordan's Bulls finally getting past Detroit. In each of those instances, the old kings were never heard from again. Boston never got past the second round in Bird's last four seasons, and the Pistons made it to only one more playoff series with Thomas, losing to the Knicks in the first round in 1992.

The comparison, used by TNT and elsewhere, falls short in an even more critical area. When Detroit ousted the Celtics in 1988, Bird was old and banged up at 32, Robert Parish was 35 and Kevin McHale was 31. The Celtics were limping and done. In the case of Detroit being supplanted by Chicago, the Pistons' mainstays were getting up there - Thomas was 30, Bill Laimbeer was 34 and Vinnie Johnson nearly 35 - while Jordan was 28 and primed to start his dynasty.

But the Spurs aren't ready to be carried out on their shields. Tim Duncan, described after the series by Nowitzki as "unguardable," turned 30 last month. Ginobili will be 29 in July. Tony Parker is 24.

"I listen to (people say) how athletic Dallas was and how we couldn't handle it, and it just makes me smile," Spurs VP Gregg Popovich said after the Spurs' run ended. "If you win, there's all kinds of things you did well. If you lose, there's got to be reasons why you lost. So if they're more athletic, I need to figure out how much more to win by a point. How much more athletic is that?"

Not much. Any tinkering the Spurs do is not going to be mistaken for some sort of radical makeover. They don't need one.

"Let's face it, that Dallas series could have gone either way," said Dan Majerle, the former Phoenix Suns guard. "Tim Duncan is going to continue be a great player for a while. Parker is still a young guy. So they're not going anywhere. The way it looks, the Spurs are still going to be the team that everybody will have to go through for a long time to come."


Slam Dunks



Like Larry Brown, Indiana's Rick Carlisle is currently involved in pre-draft workouts. But the difference is that while Brown is going to depart whenever Jim Dolan gives the word, Carlisle, who was on thin ice this past season, is apparently staying on. The Pacers' massive housecleaning plan includes exporting Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley and just about everybody else. Two players staying, barring a change, are Peja Stojakovic and Danny Granger.


One possible destination for Indy's O'Neal: Golden State, in a package starting with Troy Murphy. "A lot of teams out there like our players," said Golden State GM Rod Higgins. Besides Murphy, the Pacers like Ike Diogu and Mickael Pietrus.


Minnesota brought back assistant coach Randy Wittman, a Kevin McHale favorite who could slide into the No. 1 seat if Dwane Casey gets off to a rough start in Year 2 with Kevin Garnett. You don't hear Garnett's name in trade talks — yet — but the T-Wolves would love to move oft-injured Troy Hudson.


Kenyon Martin will have to reach some sort of buyout with the Nuggets before Rod Thorn even considers bringing him back to the Nets.

Aw Heck
05-28-2006, 01:33 PM
Like Larry Brown, Indiana's Rick Carlisle is currently involved in pre-draft workouts. But the difference is that while Brown is going to depart whenever Jim Dolan gives the word, Carlisle, who was on thin ice this past season, is apparently staying on. The Pacers' massive housecleaning plan includes exporting Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley and just about everybody else. Two players staying, barring a change, are Peja Stojakovic and Danny Granger.

One possible destination for Indy's O'Neal: Golden State, in a package starting with Troy Murphy. "A lot of teams out there like our players," said Golden State GM Rod Higgins. Besides Murphy, the Pacers like Ike Diogu and Mickael Pietrus.

Good Lord. If we absolutely have to trade JO (and I really don't think we do) it sure as hell better not involve Troy Murphy.

With Murphy and Peja, we would be VERY soft at the forward positions. They'd get lit up night in and night out.

This only makes sense if we plan to move towards a Phoenix-style of basketball. But then having Carlisle as the coach makes absolutely no sense. And considering we have no playmaker (that can stay healthy for more than 20 games at a time) in the backcourt, this makes even less sense.

I hope this "insider" is just making stuff up.

Shade
05-28-2006, 01:43 PM
I call :bs:. Seems too far-fetched.

And if we trade JO for Troy Murphy...well...it's called "going PFFL." That is all.

Unclebuck
05-28-2006, 01:48 PM
I think Murphy would be part of a much larger package. I don't don't know

Will Galen
05-28-2006, 01:53 PM
That article was from Mitch Lawrence. Does he ever get anything right thats not already obvious?

Peter Vecsey should have a column soon denying the O'Neal trade. He always punches holes in Lawrence's columns.

Most posters on here have a better handle on what is going on with the Pacers than Lawrence.

Unclebuck
05-28-2006, 01:54 PM
Mitch Lawrence is probably the worst insider there is. Some of you think Vescey is bad Mitch is hardly ever right.

But it is still interesting to consider what he's saying

Shade
05-28-2006, 01:58 PM
I was just looking over salaries, and in order to make it work, GS would have to send us Murphy AND Diogu AND Pietrus AND 1-2 other players. And I would want their first-rounder this year as well. :tongue:

Jermaniac
05-28-2006, 02:01 PM
Troy Murphy for Jermaine O'neal, I really pray that Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh are not that stupid. If they are that stupid and think that this trade would make the Pacers some how a better team then Godbless their poor soul's.

Troy Murphy SMFH.

Peja staying over Jermaine, that is just great. But whatever you know how Larry Bird likes his players.

Will Galen
05-28-2006, 02:02 PM
I was just looking over salaries, and in order to make it work, GS would have to send us Murphy AND Diogu AND Pietrus AND 1-2 other players. And I would want their first-rounder this year as well. :tongue:

No, next years first rounder!

Jermaniac
05-28-2006, 02:08 PM
Ohh and on Rick coming back, HELL YEAH BABY.

One more year of David Harrison being treated like ****, Danny Granger losing PT over Austin Croshere. The new rookie NEVER playing. Dumb **** offense that minimizes the talent our players have, Anthony Johnson being allowed to shoot 45 times a game. Lose every single double digit lead we get, and never win a close game.

Rick Carlisle for God.

Trader Joe
05-28-2006, 02:20 PM
I dont think that our problems begin and end with Rick, but IDK if Rick can take the next step in this new age quick paced NBA, He just does not want to change.

Jaydawg2270
05-28-2006, 02:24 PM
troy murphy i'll kill myself

Lord Helmet
05-28-2006, 02:35 PM
I'm ok with Jackson, Tinsley being out of here. But for no reason should JO be gone. That's just plain stupidity right there. Especially with the mock trade in the article.

Yeah, that's a great trade. :unimpress

If they trade JO, I will be highly pissed.

If they trade JO for crap, which is what they'd be doing if they do this Golden State trade. (They'd get like one or two "decent" players in the deal.) They'd lose even more fans. I refuse to believe Donnie and Larry are that stupid.

Lord Helmet
05-28-2006, 02:37 PM
Ohh and on Rick coming back, HELL YEAH BABY.

One more year of David Harrison being treated like ****, Danny Granger losing PT over Austin Croshere. The new rookie NEVER playing. Dumb **** offense that minimizes the talent our players have, Anthony Johnson being allowed to shoot 45 times a game. Lose every single double digit lead we get, and never win a close game.

Rick Carlisle for God.
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to another year like that. If Rick is back, he needs to change a little, too.

Young
05-28-2006, 02:46 PM
The Pacers are not trading Jermaine O'Neal. Why? Because when you combine his salary and talent, it is hard to get a player you want. Just look at what the Lakers got for Shaquile O'Neal, the Pacers would get even less than that from whoever they trade Jermaine to.

Now Tinsley and Jackson are guys who could go.

But everyone else like Foster, Croshere, and Freddie could either go or stay. Depending on what Donnie and Larry want and can do.

Pretty much Jackson and Tinsley are the only ones who are for sure gone this summer, other than them, who knows?

Hicks
05-28-2006, 02:49 PM
Troy Murphy SMFH.

What does that mean?

Jermaniac
05-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Shake
My
F you know what this is
Head

aceace
05-28-2006, 03:02 PM
I am not opposed to trading JO, look what happened to Orlando after they dumped Steve Francis. Now grant you Francis is no O'Neal. Having that said, it would all depend on who we got in exchange. Could we grab a couple draft picks along with a good player. Is G.S. the only team we can trade with? (Nope) Theres many teams that would line up to trade for J.O. It all depends on the circumstances. Nearly all the very good players in this league have been traded at one time or another. Its going to be a very interesting off season. The DW article a week ago about no massive breakup of the team could have been smoke and mirrors to sell season tickets. How many will decide not to buy s.t. if JO is traded.

rexnom
05-28-2006, 03:15 PM
I would be shocked if Jermaine was traded. No other comment.

Seed
05-28-2006, 03:31 PM
Negotiations tactics are one thing, but if DW, LB are saying that massive changes are not planned, and then they go out and trade everyone...
I find it... weird.
Is it likely they will give up their credibility to that extent?

VF21
05-28-2006, 03:44 PM
So basically (if Lawrence finally gets something right - which is a BIG if), the Kings gave up Rick Adelman and the Pacers are keeping Rick Carlisle.

Whoa...

...

...

I guess it truly might be the beginning of the end of the world.

Tim
05-28-2006, 03:57 PM
Negotiations tactics are one thing, but if DW, LB are saying that massive changes are not planned, and then they go out and trade everyone...
I find it... weird.
Is it likely they will give up their credibility to that extent?

You can never openly say your best players are being shopped, it brings down thee trade value.

SoupIsGood
05-28-2006, 03:58 PM
Keep JO, let Rick go

Unclebuck
05-28-2006, 04:13 PM
Isn't is common knowledge that the Pacers offered JO for Bosh last summer. Raptors turned the Pacers down

OnlyPacersLeft
05-28-2006, 04:24 PM
I donno...Peja over JO? wow! JO goes out there hurt and plays...but they want peja? BLAH! they would be stupid like that now wouldn't they?

Jaydawg2270
05-28-2006, 04:27 PM
I donno...Peja over JO? wow! JO goes out there hurt and plays...but they want peja? BLAH! they would be stupid like that now wouldn't they?

Larry wants more white players :rolleyes:

Will Galen
05-28-2006, 04:55 PM
Larry wants more white players :rolleyes:

Groan! I think Larry wants professionals that can shoot. And since he was slow (relatively) I don't think he respects speed as much as he should. You can get better at shooting by practicing, but you can't get more speed out of someone by practicing.

OnlyPacersLeft
05-28-2006, 04:59 PM
that would have golden state jumping for joy...wait we can get Jermaine O'neal...an all star...not in his prime yet...without giving up Jason Richardson or Baron Davis? haha where do we sign!?

Roaming Gnome
05-28-2006, 05:02 PM
The NBA is back, but not in Indiana!

Damn, if this is true....DW and Bird must have some serious blinders on. The league is getting away from Rick Carlisle's type of slog ball, slow it down and muck it up.

Personally, I would be more disappointed about keeping Carlisle...then letting J.O. go for the trash that Golden St. has to offer! I'm so sick of watching our young guys not developed, egg timer substitutions, (Plug in all other standard Carlisle gripes here), and don't forget running back on defense with careless reguard to offensive rebounding.

One thing I'm waiting for is an announcement on whether or not Carlisle will get an extension, I guarantee he won't start the season here without an extension. So all this is Bull until then. If he does get his extension, it looks like the wheels for this could be in motion and you will have to keep me away from high ledges, shower rods, and of course any firearm :suicide:.

sweabs
05-28-2006, 05:07 PM
You can get better at shooting by practicing, but you can't get more speed out of someone by practicing.

That's not really true.

Granted; genetics certainly help in this area, but one can certainly improve upon their quickness and speed through working on their fast-twitch muscle fibres. There's a lot of drills, exercises, and workout routines specifically geared towards this - plyometrics is key.

Roaming Gnome
05-28-2006, 05:16 PM
That's not really true.

Granted; genetics certainly help in this area, but one can certainly improve upon their quickness and speed through working on their fast-twitch muscle fibres. There's a lot of drills, exercises, and workout routines specifically geared towards this - plyometrics is key.

That's cool. Seriously, I didn't know that! I guess you really do learn something new every day.

Shade
05-28-2006, 05:18 PM
My source tells me that not only is this rumor true, but that TPTB have decided to bring in a new mascot to celebrate having both Peja and Troy Murphy on the same team:

http://www.ciadvertising.org/student_account/fall_01/adv382j/cmoore/whipple.jpg

vapacersfan
05-28-2006, 05:19 PM
Isn't is common knowledge that the Pacers offered JO for Bosh last summer. Raptors turned the Pacers down

Yeah, I have heard/read this several times.

I really didnt like Bosh at the time, but after watching him play more this past season he has shown me some things that have me impressed. With that said, I am not the best judge of talent. When we got JO I thought he was going to be raw talent that would never develop, and have a attitude problem at that. I was wrong, at least on the first part.

I have openly said I have not been pleased with JO the past few seasons (although more has to do with his maturity, or lack there of from my POV) but I really would like to see how he does with a more stable supporting cast around him.

I for one dont think that his performance during our 61 win season was a fluke, and I hope he proves me wrong.

Eindar
05-28-2006, 05:45 PM
That's not really true.

Granted; genetics certainly help in this area, but one can certainly improve upon their quickness and speed through working on their fast-twitch muscle fibres. There's a lot of drills, exercises, and workout routines specifically geared towards this - plyometrics is key.

If the Pacers medical staff is reading this, they are currently searching wikipedia for the word "plyometrics"

Jon Theodore
05-28-2006, 06:32 PM
JO, Jax, Tins for Ike, Pietrus, Murphy, monta ellis, their 1st round pick this year and next year = deal

SoupIsGood
05-28-2006, 06:55 PM
That's not really true.

Granted; genetics certainly help in this area, but one can certainly improve upon their quickness and speed through working on their fast-twitch muscle fibres. There's a lot of drills, exercises, and workout routines specifically geared towards this - plyometrics is key.

But when someone is already as fit as an NBA athlete, wouldn't the gains be kinda marginal? I mean, unless they are Greg Ostertag or something, they've probably done some of that before.

Shade
05-28-2006, 07:10 PM
JO, Jax, Tins for Ike, Pietrus, Murphy, monta ellis, their 1st round pick this year and next year = deal

:signit:

Jon Theodore
05-28-2006, 07:13 PM
too bad that trade couldnt work cuz of JO's contract. But i enjoy dreaming. Maybe if they threw foyle in there and we throw them DH also.

Pacersfan.
05-28-2006, 07:30 PM
Yea, I guess it could be a nice deal, but the team trading the star usually gets the short end of the stick no matter how many players they get back. I really wish that if we had to trade J.O. it would be for a player somewhat equal in talent.

Knucklehead Warrior
05-28-2006, 07:49 PM
Negotiations tactics are one thing, but if DW, LB are saying that massive changes are not planned, and then they go out and trade everyone...
I find it... weird.
Is it likely they will give up their credibility to that extent?
Team history says we would not be trading 3 starters and "everyone else". If jermO is gone, it would suggest to me that he also was part of the attitude problem.
I just don't see it.

Evan_The_Dude
05-28-2006, 08:15 PM
JO, Jax, Tins for Ike, Pietrus, Murphy, monta ellis, their 1st round pick this year and next year = deal

I'm opposed to trading JO, but where do I sign on that one? I'm not exactly convinced I'd rather have Pietrus than Jack though. Give us a new coach and I don't think Jack's mouth will be so out of control anymore. Shot selection will be questionable, but Pietrus aint exactly a 45% shooter himself. Plus, if I had Murphy, I'd want Jack with him. Somebody has to light the fire under Murphy's ***, might as well be Jack.

Ron who?
05-28-2006, 09:37 PM
keep JO throw Carlisle under a car....

What the pacers need is a coach who would want our team to play a high paced game because if JO sheds a couple of pounds back to when he didnt have injury problems and was alot more agile he is a great centerpiece for a high-paced team...
trade Peja (s-jax)and get rid of for a good PG and a better center and our starting line-up could look like this
New PG...Fred Jones (HOORAY JONES!).... Danny.... JO.... new center
O yeah and also get a new Coach for the Pacers because Carlisle was killed by the driver
all i need is for somebody to fill in those blanks and set up a new trade proposal

Robertmto
05-28-2006, 10:52 PM
keep JO throw Carlisle under a car....

What the pacers need is a coach who would want our team to play a high paced game because if JO sheds a couple of pounds back to when he didnt have injury problems and was alot more agile he is a great centerpiece for a high-paced team...
trade Peja (s-jax)and get rid of for a good PG and a better center and our starting line-up could look like this
New PG...Fred Jones (HOORAY JONES!).... Danny.... JO.... new center
O yeah and also get a new Coach for the Pacers because Carlisle was killed by the driver
all i need is for somebody to fill in those blanks and set up a new trade proposal

Basically relocate...lol

rexnom
05-28-2006, 11:55 PM
I don't think we should really look that much into this. I think we are set at 2, 3, 4 for a LOOONG time. And I'm pretty sure that's how TPTB view it too. Also, I'm fairly sure JO is coming back with a vengeance next year. I'll gladly watch him dominate all these smaller teams. Big men are disappearing. We're one of a handful of teams with one, and ours is still not quite at his peak. There's not going to be a trade here.

Evan_The_Dude
05-29-2006, 12:09 AM
We're set at the 2? Did I miss something?

Bball
05-29-2006, 12:12 AM
I could imagine TPTB wishing they could trade Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson, and Jamaal Tinsley but I don't see them having a fire sale to do it. Not a fire sale in each individual case anyway. I have a feeling one or two of those guys could be had for a bag of chips if that is the best offer.

Each guy has been a disappointment for one reason or the other. And the stigma of 11/19 still looms over this franchise. And I have to say, the recent Pacer letter had some interesting wording.

That said... this article sounds like it is using a rather large brush and methods that would be very uncharacteristic of Donnie Walsh.

-Bball

Sollozzo
05-29-2006, 12:36 AM
Isn't is common knowledge that the Pacers offered JO for Bosh last summer. Raptors turned the Pacers down



How long is Bosh under contract for?

It's hard to believe that he would want to stay in Toronto. Who would?

Other parts would have had to be included, but it may have been smart for Toronto to do this purely on the basis that O'Neal is locked up until 2010 and Bosh will be a FA sometime in the near future and will probably bolt.

sweabs
05-29-2006, 12:41 AM
But when someone is already as fit as an NBA athlete, wouldn't the gains be kinda marginal? I mean, unless they are Greg Ostertag or something, they've probably done some of that before.

You can be extremely fit, without ever thoroughly working on your fast-twitch muscle fibres. Marathon runners, for example, are in great shape but are no where near a guy like Dwyane Wade when it comes to fast-twitch (however, they are superior in the slow-twitch realm - mainly dealing with endurance). Merely running laps and playing 48 minute basketball games is not enough to help in this area; you actually have to isolate the muscle groups and specifically partake in exercises that work on enhancing the fast-twitch fibres. But of course, as I said earlier and most importantly, genetics is still the most determinant factor in all of this.

sweabs
05-29-2006, 12:45 AM
How long is Bosh under contract for?

It's hard to believe that he would want to stay in Toronto. Who would?

Other parts would have had to be included, but it may have been smart for Toronto to do this purely on the basis that O'Neal is locked up until 2010 and Bosh will be a FA sometime in the near future and will probably bolt.

Once again, Bosh has already made it public that he will be resigning with the Raptors.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20718&highlight=Bosh

It's too late now. You need to pull the trigger on those types of deals BEFORE the guy actually hits his stride - much like we did with JO when we acquired him. But then again, I was laughed at and ridiculed for even suggesting such a thing back then by a few certain people.....

Anthem
05-29-2006, 12:47 AM
Jackson for Pietrus and Diogu. Works for me.

Heck, I'll throw in Tinsley.

Jermaniac
05-29-2006, 01:02 AM
Jackson for Pietrus and Diogu. Works for me.

Heck, I'll throw in Tinsley.
It sure as hell doesnt work for the Warriors

Hicks
05-29-2006, 01:26 AM
Jackson for Pietrus and Diogu. Works for me.

Heck, I'll throw in Tinsley.

Ya don't say!


It sure as hell doesnt work for the Warriors

:ding:

SoupIsGood
05-29-2006, 01:48 AM
You can be extremely fit, without ever thoroughly working on your fast-twitch muscle fibres. Marathon runners, for example, are in great shape but are no where near a guy like Dwyane Wade when it comes to fast-twitch (however, they are superior in the slow-twitch realm - mainly dealing with endurance). Merely running laps and playing 48 minute basketball games is not enough to help in this area; you actually have to isolate the muscle groups and specifically partake in exercises that work on enhancing the fast-twitch fibres. But of course, as I said earlier and most importantly, genetics is still the most determinant factor in all of this.
I know, but I wasn't talking about marathon runners, I said 'NBA athletes.' I think that chances are they're already doing or have done some form of plyometrics, if they've made it this far.

I think if you take your typical NBA athlete, Will's statement would hold up pretty well. They'd get somewhat faster with training, but there's a lot more room for improvement when it comes to their shooting. IMO.

Anthem
05-29-2006, 02:08 AM
:ding:
Seriously, do I need to start putting [sarcasm] tags on everything?

SoupIsGood
05-29-2006, 02:15 AM
:signit:
JO, Jax, Tins for Ike, Pietrus, Murphy, monta ellis, their 1st round pick this year and next year = deal

Jax and Tins are trash, so it's basically JO for one softie, three guys with decent potential, and two picks.

The pick this year is a #9, but isn't exactly a whole lot better than our pick in this weak draft. Next year, led by JO, JRich, BDiddy, and hopefully a new coach, they would make the playoffs. So, no lottery pick there.

So, we trade JO for a bunch of decent players, a few of whom might be solid starters, but nowhere in the deal do we get a player as good as JO back.

Pass.

CableKC
05-29-2006, 02:49 AM
I would have ZERO problem with moving SJax and/or Tinsley in seperate deals that would bring back a equally bad contract and a solid backup player at the Guard and SF positions.......but I suspect that Bird is going to try to move them by packaging them with players like Foster :puke: or JONeal :puke:to try to get the type of player that they want ( and at the same time....get rid of SJax and Tinsley ) to rebuild the team with.

Oddly enough......Lawrence mentions the 3 remaining players that have most contributed to the problems that the Pacers have had......SJax ( the embaressment ), Tinsley and JONeal ( both injury-prone ).

BTW,.....if it ever happened.......the starting price is not Murphy....the starting price is JRich, Diogu and Pietrus......if SJax and/or Tinsley is included....then Murphy or Foyle would have to be included to make salaries match.

Downtown Threat
05-29-2006, 04:47 AM
Surely the only way you would trade JO is for a player of very similar caliber. Say if you trade JO and someone/something else to Timberwolves for KG then you would do it but JO for a number of "nice" pieces would be just dumb IMHO.

Roaming Gnome
05-29-2006, 06:15 AM
Surely the only way you would trade JO is for a player of very similar caliber. Say if you trade JO and someone/something else to Timberwolves for KG then you would do it but JO for a number of "nice" pieces would be just dumb IMHO.

:nod: Word....

Unclebuck
05-29-2006, 09:35 AM
The Pacers have to do what they did when they got JO. Trade for a player who is young but just hasn't gotten a chance.

Last year right now who knew Boris Diaw would turn out to be this good. Pacers must look for a player like that.

A player like John Salmons IMO is ready to break out, there are other players out there like that, the Pacers must target 3 of those type players, maybe only 1 really works out, but that is what they need to do.

sixthman
05-29-2006, 09:42 AM
I would be shocked if Jermaine was traded. No other comment.

I would not be shocked if JO is traded. I will be shocked if we take Troy Murphy back in the trade. No other comment.

rexnom
05-29-2006, 10:22 AM
We're set at the 2? Did I miss something?
I really think that Danny and Peja will man the 2 and 3 spots as starters.

Bball
05-29-2006, 10:22 AM
Surely the only way you would trade JO is for a player of very similar caliber. Say if you trade JO and someone/something else to Timberwolves for KG then you would do it but JO for a number of "nice" pieces would be just dumb IMHO.

I wonder just where TPTB rank JO when they are behind closed doors? Is he a couple of players back from a former MVP candidate or is he a oft-injured player not living up to his contract and part of a franchise black eye that TPTB and ownership want to distance themselves from?

IOW... Maybe TPTB have a different definition of 'similar caliber' when they are sitting in their office than we might suspect....

-Bball

ChicagoJ
05-29-2006, 12:08 PM
I wonder just where TPTB rank JO when they are behind closed doors? Is he a couple of players back from a former MVP candidate or is he a oft-injured player not living up to his contract and part of a franchise black eye that TPTB and ownership want to distance themselves from?

IOW... Maybe TPTB have a different definition of 'similar caliber' when they are sitting in their office than we might suspect....

-Bball

The one guy who's suspension was reduced?

The most charitable of the current Pacers?

JO *is* the face of the franchise right now, on and off the court. If there's one guy I've generally been proud of for the way he's responded to adversity, its JO. Perfect? Of couse not. But I'd imagine many other players of his stature would've snapped, or demaned a trade, or whatever.

There may be a franchise black-eye but in came in spite of JO's efforts to prevent it.

If he's an oft-injured player not living up to his contract, its management's fault for surrounding him with players that exposed his weaknesses (physically and skills-wise), not the other way around.

Goodness gracious, bball, are you trying to make me look like Sally :sunshine:? We must be up for "Darksider" balloting soon. :D

Bball
05-29-2006, 12:45 PM
The one guy who's suspension was reduced?

The most charitable of the current Pacers?

JO *is* the face of the franchise right now, on and off the court. If there's one guy I've generally been proud of for the way he's responded to adversity, its JO. Perfect? Of couse not. But I'd imagine many other players of his stature would've snapped, or demaned a trade, or whatever.

There may be a franchise black-eye but in came in spite of JO's efforts to prevent it.

If he's an oft-injured player not living up to his contract, its management's fault for surrounding him with players that exposed his weaknesses (physically and skills-wise), not the other way around.

Goodness gracious, bball, are you trying to make me look like Sally :sunshine:? We must be up for "Darksider" balloting soon. :D


You are talking about the 'public face' they put on in regards to JO. That very well could be exactly what it appears... OTOH... it could be different inside the darkened walls of PS&E. We'll have to see how much fire is really behind some of this smoke we have been, and are, seeing so far these past few weeks.

I have to take exception to one of your comments tho... What did JO ever do to attempt to prevent the episode of 11/19 (franchise black eye)?

If TPTB really are keeping Carlisle then I have to wonder about JO in all of this.

-Bball

Slick Pinkham
05-29-2006, 03:06 PM
This isn't fantasy basktball, this is Donnie Walsh.

Our blockbuster offseaon will involving not signing Eddie Gill and Scot Pollard, and signing the two draft picks.

If DW is feeling CRAZY, he will trade one other significant player, I'm guessing Tinsley, for basically a role player off the bench.

That's it, people. I hope I'm wong,and I invite anyone to bump up this post in September. No fire sale, no house cleaning, just a minor rearranging of the deck chairs, with a fresh coats of blue and gold paint and a new motto.

Bball
05-29-2006, 03:09 PM
This isn't fantasy basktball, this is Donnie Walsh.

No fire sale, no house cleaning, just a minor rearranging of the deck chairs, with a fresh coats of blue and gold paint and a new motto.

"The 2006-2007 Indiana Pacers: Unsinkable"

:hmm:

-Bball

Robertmto
05-29-2006, 03:14 PM
"The 2006-2007 Indiana Pacers: Unsinkable"

:hmm:

-Bball

:carlisle: Rick "The Iceberg" Carlisle

Bball
05-29-2006, 03:34 PM
And Donnie Walsh starring as "The Unsinkable Molly Brown"

(BTW... Are you sure Rick is the Iceburg or is Artest the Iceburg?) ....Hmmmm maybe Stern is the iceburg??? :confused:

-Bball

Unclebuck
05-29-2006, 03:38 PM
There will be a lot of changes. A lot of changes. You all will be surprised

Robertmto
05-29-2006, 03:45 PM
And Donnie Walsh starring as "The Unsinkable Molly Brown"

(BTW... Are you sure Rick is the Iceburg or is Artest the Iceburg?) ....Hmmmm maybe Stern is the iceburg??? :confused:

-Bball

It said the 2006-2007 team so it can't be Artest. But....

:sarunas: is the Pacers version of Leanardo Dicaprio. The saving grace that never was...

Lord Helmet
05-29-2006, 04:19 PM
There will be a lot of changes. A lot of changes. You all will be surprised
OK..........Donnie.

:laugh:

Mourning
05-29-2006, 04:29 PM
It said the 2006-2007 team so it can't be Artest. But....

:sarunas: is the Pacers version of Leanardo Dicaprio. The saving grace that never was...

Riiiight, because a rookie should be the "saving grace" of our franchise :rolleyes:




;)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

8.9_seconds
05-29-2006, 04:32 PM
Carlisle needs to go, now. I've never said this besides when I was all in favor of throwing him under the bus.

JO, he is not a championship player. He is not Hakeem. We can't base an entire team around Jermaine. I do really,really like him, he is intelligent, he seems to say all of the right things, but he brings no results. Give him one more season MAX; if that.

Why do I feel if we get rid of Rick that Tins, Saras, Danny, Scot,Hulk and so many other players will benefit?

I've always wondered if we got rid of Rick, would Tinsley be the player he is supposed to be?


EDIT:
PS-If there was a MAJOR housecleaning, What about signing Spree as a back up? :duck:

Seriously.

Kegboy
05-29-2006, 04:47 PM
EDIT:
PS-If there was a MAJOR housecleaning, What about signing Spree as a back up? :duck:

Seriously.

Where's that :machinegun: smilie?

Slick Pinkham
05-29-2006, 04:50 PM
Spree was clear that he would rather not play at all than accept mere mid-level-exception money from somebody.

As a result, he sat a whole year. If he were intelligent, that should tell him something, but I bet that he still doesn't get it.

8.9_seconds
05-29-2006, 04:51 PM
Where's that :machinegun: smilie?


Laugh now, but how is gonna feed his family?

Mourning
05-29-2006, 04:51 PM
I've always wondered if we got rid of Rick, would Tinsley be the player he is supposed to be?


EDIT:
PS-If there was a MAJOR housecleaning, What about signing Spree as a back up? :duck:

Seriously.

Seriously? I really don't want Spree on my team.

Regarding Tinsley. I think Tinsley got enough opportunities to play. He proved he could two years ago and at the start of last up until about the beginning of january that season. Since then It's been downhill IMO. And yes, I do know he saved our collective a** against the Celtics, but that said more about our team and what it had gone through at the time then anything else.

I think he should go. Seriously.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
05-29-2006, 04:53 PM
Laugh now, but how is gonna feed his family?

I don't want to know and I don't care. I want him far away from our younger players. Faaaaaaaaaaar away ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

8.9_seconds
05-29-2006, 04:58 PM
I don't want to know and I don't care. I want him far away from our younger players. Faaaaaaaaaaar away ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:


You are one cold dude, Mourning.;)


On the upside, if we signed Spree and kept Rick, maybe Latrell could pull a 'Golden State Choke hold' on him :eyebrow:

Will Galen
05-29-2006, 07:01 PM
[QUOTE=8.9_seconds

EDIT:
PS-If there was a MAJOR housecleaning, What about signing Spree as a back up? :duck:

Seriously.[/QUOTE]

For the life of me I can't understand your 360 degree reasoning.

SoupIsGood
05-29-2006, 07:25 PM
Where's that :machinegun: smilie?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/SoupIsGood/bigun2.gif

Kegboy
05-29-2006, 07:59 PM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/SoupIsGood/bigun2.gif

Thanks, but I don't want to shoot Primoz like you just shot Danny. :(

[edit] Woops, that was close. Thankfully the quote is just shooting the ball. Whew.

SoupIsGood
05-29-2006, 11:15 PM
Thanks, but I don't want to shoot Primoz like you just shot Danny. :(

[edit] Woops, that was close. Thankfully the quote is just shooting the ball. Whew.

Hmm, well mine is just shooting the ball too! :(

microwave_oven
05-30-2006, 12:07 AM
Thanks, but I don't want to shoot Primoz like you just shot Danny. :(

[edit] Woops, that was close. Thankfully the quote is just shooting the ball. Whew.

Yes it shot the ball right after it took his arm clean off :sarcasm:

8.9_seconds
05-30-2006, 12:07 AM
For the life of me I can't understand your 360 degree reasoning.


I'm guessing you mean getting rid of all of the 'trouble and baggage' and adding Latrell, so I'll answer the question like that.

With no income as of right now,it is probably in his best interest to go somewhere and play; I figure we could sign him. I really like Jax and Tins, but if they are both gone, maybe we could put Spree as our Back up SG.

Now, The reason:


I think he deserves a chance. He's a great player, he's proven that, IMHO. I also love Ronnie, but I don't think that Spree is in that level of crazy. I kind of see him as a Rasheed Wallace-type of crazy. I will say that it is a BIG risk and that I may be a little biased because I have grown up watching him; but I really think that he could be a nice addition. He can score, play defense, and maybe can handle being a third option better than Jax or Ron. Granted, I know this sounds like trading one headcase for another, but if we rely on him as a back-up, like in a Gary Payton role, it could work.

microwave_oven
05-30-2006, 12:10 AM
I agree with everything you just said 8.9, but I still want no part of Spree...ever

SoupIsGood
05-30-2006, 12:13 AM
The elusive boxout!! :lmao:

Funny cause it's true. :(

rexnom
05-30-2006, 12:14 AM
I'm guessing you mean getting rid of all of the 'trouble and baggage' and adding Latrell, so I'll answer the question like that.

With no income as of right now,it is probably in his best interest to go somewhere and play; I figure we could sign him. I really like Jax and Tins, but if they are both gone, maybe we could put Spree as our Back up SG.

Now, The reason:


I think he deserves a chance. He's a great player, he's proven that, IMHO. I also love Ronnie, but I don't think that Spree is in that level of crazy. I kind of see him as a Rasheed Wallace-type of crazy. I will say that it is a BIG risk and that I may be a little biased because I have grown up watching him; but I really think that he could be a nice addition. He can score, play defense, and maybe can handle being a third option better than Jax or Ron. Granted, I know this sounds like trading one headcase for another, but if we rely on him as a back-up, like in a Gary Payton role, it could work.
Spree once choked his coach and then explained that he wasn't trying to kill him, just strangle him a little. If that's not above Ron Artest crazy, I don't know what is.

8.9_seconds
05-30-2006, 12:49 AM
Spree once choked his coach and then explained that he wasn't trying to kill him, just strangle him a little. If that's not above Ron Artest crazy, I don't know what is.


It's like a love tap...no big. The man wears pig tails now, pig tails!!! Would a man in pig tails really choke anybody?

rexnom
05-30-2006, 01:25 AM
It's like a love tap...no big. The man wears pig tails now, pig tails!!! Would a man in pig tails really choke anybody?
Prolly not...has Scot Pollard ever choked anyone? Didn't think so.

8.9_seconds
05-30-2006, 01:32 AM
Prolly not...has Scot Pollard ever choked anyone? Didn't think so.


Exactly!...I think. SAVE SCOT!

Since86
05-30-2006, 10:25 AM
I know, but I wasn't talking about marathon runners, I said 'NBA athletes.' I think that chances are they're already doing or have done some form of plyometrics, if they've made it this far.

I think if you take your typical NBA athlete, Will's statement would hold up pretty well. They'd get somewhat faster with training, but there's a lot more room for improvement when it comes to their shooting. IMO.

You're missing his point on the training aspect.

Basketball is categorized as an endurance sport, just like marathoners. You train you're body for aerobic exercise, as opposed to anaerobic. Slow twitch fibers operate aerobically.

You have two types of fast twitch fibers, Type 2A and Type 2B. Training aerobically will make 2A fibers more producive using oxygen, and training anerobically will make them more productive without it, and will actually turn some slow twitch fibers into Type 2A.

Level of "fitness" for a basketball player is going to be on a similiar path as a marathon runner, as opposed to a sprinter. You can be fit and have no endurance whatsoever, or you can be fit and have no speed whatsoever.

Running a couple of sprints a day isn't going to be enough, you'd have to get on a strict speed training regimen and stay with it for a while.

ChicagoJ
05-30-2006, 10:36 AM
I have to take exception to one of your comments tho... What did JO ever do to attempt to prevent the episode of 11/19 (franchise black eye)?

The franchise black eye was not the episode of 11/19. That was a symptom of the problem. Maybe Joe-sports-page in Omaha thinks that, but anybody that's followed this team or Artest knows that what happened on 11/19 was just the tip of the iceberg of his destructive behavior.

Any embarassment this franchise achieved was from keeping Artest around so long that he was able to unleash his destruction on the franchise numerous times publicly and privately. The black eye was the personnel mistake by management - especially when they'd attempt to market the team with that stupid "One Goal" slogan.

JO doesn't deserve any of the blame being lobbed his way for this stuff. Blame him all you want that he hasn't made this flawed team better all by himself.

8.9_seconds
05-30-2006, 10:43 AM
The franchise black eye was not the episode of 11/19. That was a symptom of the problem. Maybe Joe-sports-page in Omaha thinks that, but anybody that's followed this team or Artest knows that what happened on 11/19 was just the tip of the iceberg of his destructive behavior.

Any embarassment this franchise achieved was from keeping Artest around so long that he was able to unleash his destruction on the franchise numerous times publicly and privately. The black eye was the personnel mistake by management - especially when they'd attempt to market the team with that stupid "One Goal" slogan.

Personally, I can't blame TPTB. Ron was Top 5 in defense, a reliable scorer, and an itimidator. He honestly was just a fantastic player. That really made the decision and put the blinders on the organization. I don't think we would have gotten anybody of even Peja's caliber had we traded him right after 11/19.


JO doesn't deserve any of the blame being lobbed his way for this stuff. Blame him all you want that he hasn't made this flawed team better all by himself.


This is correct. Jermaine has been very mature about the whole thing. It is true that one person cannot change a team like this, but his talk is cheap.

ChicagoJ
05-30-2006, 11:23 AM
Personally, I can't blame TPTB. Ron was Top 5 in defense, a reliable scorer, and an itimidator. He honestly was just a fantastic player. That really made the decision and put the blinders on the organization. I don't think we would have gotten anybody of even Peja's caliber had we traded him right after 11/19.

That ignores the fact that management knew how destructive he was (1) before they traded for him (Jerry Krause was very loose-lipped), (2) after they traded for him, with the crap he pulled on the court and in the lockerroom for Isiah, and the fact that he continued to cause numerous problems for Rick off the court even though his on-court behavior improved. Management knew he was a ticking time bomb but elected to not trade him because they were asking too much in return.

Ron's meltdown in the 2004 playoffs should've sent the signal that "nobody is ever going to win with this clown". "Falling in love with talent" is perfectly viable reason to blame TPTB for keeping him. That was the mistake - the franchise's black eye: one of the classiest franchises in professional sports voluntarily threw it all that goodwill away. And again, that's not JO's fault.

They knew he was a problem and tried to unload him. Maybe they couldn't get Peja for him in the summer of 2004 (Sacremento refused), and they offered him around for a few other star players. But because management held firm to a price that was "too high", they held on to him too long and caused both 11/19 and this season's debacle.

Of course his trade value was too low after the incident in Detroit. He wasn't worth anything in a trade but watching this year's team made me wonder if things had to be this bad. They could have more-vigorously pursued terminating his contract and saved us from a bunch of heartbreak and uncertainty this past season.

In summary, Ron SHOULD NOT have been with this team on opening day of the 2004-05 season. He had some trade value then - maybe not Peja who was fourth in the MVP voting the previous season but something. And Ron SHOULD NOT have been with this team on opening day of the 2005-06 season. Addition by subtraction would have been a wiser decision than the hype under which he returned to the team.

I'm surprised that Bball has never picked up on how destructive it was to the other 12/13 players on the team to see Larry Bird on the cover of SI with the guy that ruined the previous season for them. That surely caused more distrust between the players and management than any alleged "Jamaal Tinsley incident."

Bball
05-30-2006, 11:51 AM
I'm surprised that Bball has never picked up on how destructive it was to the other 12/13 players on the team to see Larry Bird on the cover of SI with the guy that ruined the previous season for them. That surely caused more distrust between the players and management than any alleged "Jamaal Tinsley incident."

I would hope the rest of the team was smart enough to realize the Pacers had to polish Artest's image as much as possible not only for trade reasons but for franchise PR.

You raise an interesting point in regards to how the Pacers handled the 11/19 situation and didn't vigorously pursue voiding his contract. IMHO when it's all said and done they blew it on a couple of fronts in handling the 11/19 aftermath. They either should've went to bat in a more public manner for their fans and players and/or thrown Artest under the bus then and there and pleaded for mercy from the NBA.

I would assume there were plenty of behind the scenes things going on... though with our patient 'wait and see' organization you're never quite sure... but IMHO I think a little more noise would not have hurt.

We made for willing patsies for Stern to throw a franchise under a bus and divert ALL of the blame for 11/19.

-Bball

8.9_seconds
05-30-2006, 11:58 AM
That ignores the fact that management knew how destructive he was (1) before they traded for him (Jerry Krause was very loose-lipped), (2) after the traded for him, with the crap he pulled on the court and in the lockerroom for Isiah, and the fact that he continued to cause numerous problems for Rick off the court even though his on-court behavior improved. Ron's meltdown in the 2004 playoffs should've sent the signal that "nobody is ever going to win with this clown". "Falling in love with talent" is perfectly viable reason to blame TPTB for keeping him. That was the mistake - the franchise's black eye: one of the classiest franchises in professional sports voluntarily threw it all that goodwill away. And again, that's not JO's fault.

They knew he was a problem and tried to unload him. Maybe they couldn't get Peja for him in the summer of 2004 (Sacremento refused), and they offered him around for a few other star players. But because management held firm to a price that was "too high", they held on to him too long and caused both 11/19 and this season's debacle.

Of course his trade value was too low after that incident. Management knew he was a ticking time bomb but elected to not trade him because they were asking too much in return. He wasn't worth anything in a trade but watching this year's team made me wonder if things had to be this bad. They could have more-vigorously pursued terminating his contract and saved us from a bunch of heartbreak and uncertainty this past season.

In summary, Ron SHOULD NOT have been with this team on opening day of the 2004-05 season. He had some trade value then - maybe not Peja who was fourth in the MVP voting the previous season but something. And Ron SHOULD NOT have been with this team on opening day of the 2005-06 season. Addition by subtraction would have been a wiser decision than the hype under which he returned to the team.

I'm surprised that Bball has never picked up on how destructive it was to the other 12/13 players on the team to see Larry Bird on the cover of SI with the guy that ruined the previous season for them. That surely caused more distrust between the players and management than any alleged "Jamaal Tinsley incident."


Very,Very well written. You know, I will freely admit it, I still like Ron. I think he has so many emotional problems that explain his volatility. He really needs help, seriously. I will also admit that Ron did fracture the franchise with alot of his antics. Did he deserve to be traded after 11/19, I guess he probably did in some ways; but in some ways he didn't. I can't and won't ever put every speck of blame on the players, but that's not really what this is about.

Ron did put a black eye on the franchise, JO tried to fix it; that is so true. Management probably should have seen he was a time bomb, but I honestly didn't think they knew. They really did just have blind faith, just like about 85-90% of this board at the time, just like all of the other Pacer fans, just like alot of other NBA fans. Ron became a golden boy around July of last year;the SI cover shows that. If you're Donnie and Larry, you don't want to think that your best defensive player, possibly best player, can't be salvaged after you've invested so much in him.

Should have Ron been here on opening day? Your answer of No, is very understandable. I think that he deserved that chance. He blew it with the trade talk, that was a low blow. I don't really think that he wanted to be traded, but it was still low. Ron was a distraction, but I don't think that he ruined this season. Players should have stepped on and acknowleged he was gone, like what AJ did when Tinsley was gone. That simply wasn't done.

Just a question, the whole distrust thing, do you mean that even though Larry was all buddy buddy with Ron and he was still traded meant that anybody could be traded?

ChicagoJ
05-30-2006, 12:04 PM
I would hope the rest of the team was smart enough to realize the Pacers had to polish Artest's image as much as possible not only for trade reasons but for franchise PR.

And I would hope that the rest of the team was smart enough to realize that the scowl on Tinsley's face was because he was frustrated with himself and that he wasn't able to help his teammates as much as possible on the court - where it matters.

:shrug:

(This obviously isn't a smart team) :(

ChicagoJ
05-30-2006, 12:12 PM
-snip-

Just a question, the whole distrust thing, do you mean that even though Larry was all buddy buddy with Ron and he was still traded meant that anybody could be traded?

No, I mean that publicly, the front office attempted to welcome back Ron as some sort of "misunderstood hero." But the players and coaches also knew what also happened a week or so before 11/19 - the last time Ron attempted to quit playing for the Pacers - and I think that sent the wrong signal to the rest of the team.

Either (1) the "squeakiest wheel gets the grease," which could explain the early season shot-wars between SJax, Tinsley, Fred, and Ron, where each guy tried as hard as possible to prove just how big a ballhog they could be.

Or (2) that the franchise clearly no longer cared about class, which could explain several pattersn of bad behavior, including (a) some of the derisive public comments which were made by Croshere (about JO's leadership) or Saras (about damn near everything) or even SJax's complaints about being boo'ed, (b) the whole Tinsley/ is-he-injured-or-is-he-pouting nonsense - after all, Bender was always allowed to look pretty on the bench in street clothes and everyone would talk about his star potential even though he rarely even practiced or played and Ron was treated like a hero after he missed an entire season blah blah blah... , (c) other bad behavior stuff - you probably get the drift so I'm not going to take the time to type it all out.

brichard
05-30-2006, 09:44 PM
No, I mean that publicly, the front office attempted to welcome back Ron as some sort of "misunderstood hero." But the players and coaches also knew what also happened a week or so before 11/19 - the last time Ron attempted to quit playing for the Pacers - and I think that sent the wrong signal to the rest of the team.

Either (1) the "squeakiest wheel gets the grease," which could explain the early season shot-wars between SJax, Tinsley, Fred, and Ron, where each guy tried as hard as possible to prove just how big a ballhog they could be.

Or (2) that the franchise clearly no longer cared about class, which could explain several pattersn of bad behavior, including (a) some of the derisive public comments which were made by Croshere (about JO's leadership) or Saras (about damn near everything) or even SJax's complaints about being boo'ed, (b) the whole Tinsley/ is-he-injured-or-is-he-pouting nonsense - after all, Bender was always allowed to look pretty on the bench in street clothes and everyone would talk about his star potential even though he rarely even practiced or played and Ron was treated like a hero after he missed an entire season blah blah blah... , (c) other bad behavior stuff - you probably get the drift so I'm not going to take the time to type it all out.

But Jay... did you really think Artest would get suspended for a season? Seriously. How many fights had Artest been involved in before the infamous Brawl. I can't think of any.

Did he do some low class things? Sure. (Hitting Rip for one, although it was a retaliation foul) But on a routine basis he was not nearly as volatile as guys like Barkley or Rodman were. And what would Barkley have done if somebody hit him with a beer? Part of the Brawl was just some very unfortunate circumstances. I could see Reggie attacking a fan if he was hit with a beer at close range. I'm not saying he would, but there would be a whole lotta folks who would have.

I've said this a million times, but there have been wackos (Rodman, Mad Max) that wear championship rings. For those who say "I knew Artest would go crazy," I guess I really don't believe that. I mean, his biggest reputation was for breaking stuff and some hard fouls. If you thought he would eventually destroy the team, I'll buy that, but I don't think anybody could have predicted the way in which it had happened. Just as many folks were saying Sheed would implode in Detroit. Hindsight is always 20/20.

It was a risk. It had nothing to do with class, it had to do with risk. Taking a chance on a guy to see if he can alter his behavior can be a way of showing class rather than casting a guy like Artest to the curb without effort. We gave a guy who had a bad reputation a chance to succeed and he turned into the NBA Defensive Player of the year. And then the wheels fell off.

Good short term risk, bad long term risk. End of story.

ChicagoJ
05-30-2006, 11:44 PM
But Jay... did you really think Artest would get suspended for a season? Seriously. How many fights had Artest been involved in before the infamous Brawl. I can't think of any.

On the court or in the lockerroom?

Does Glenn Robinson count? That was vicious.

Did I think he'd get suspended for a season? No, but I wasn't really surprised. I thought it was more likely that he'd either punch Rick, pull a weapon on JO during one of their fights, or toss another 500-lb weightlifting machine at a teammate and crush a foot this time.

Whether he was "fighting" (by throwing punches) or not, he certainly had a long history violence during games and in the lockerroom and, probably, off the court, too.

As for your analogy, the wheels were never really on. There were certainly behind-the-scenes problems throughout the season that we won 61 games and Ron won DPOY, such as the first time that Ron was benched for "conduct detrimental to winning" and of course Ron showed his true colors during the playoffs.

The Pacers/ IndyStar have tried very hard to spin that the wheels were on, but they weren't.

Having the sense to cut ties with that knucklehead would've saved the franchise from much embarassment, and probably nipped some of the current chemistry problems in the bud.

Pacers' management sent the signal to the rest of the team that the rotten apple gets the preferential treatment. That's not classy. :twocents:

Sorry, but TPTB had sufficient information to realize that he was really a bad short-term risk and a catastrophic long-term risk - (which is, by the way, the same conclusion the Bulls had reached when they suckered us into taking him.)

brichard
05-31-2006, 10:09 PM
As for your analogy, the wheels were never really on.

Well the fact that we won 61 games, in spite of how others try to diminish that accomplishment, shows that the wheels were in fact on. I don't rate teams by newspapers, coaches, or opinions... I rate them by their W-L records. And secondarily I rate them by how they specifically do in the playoffs. This team held their own with the eventual world champs, so that says something for them.


Having the sense to cut ties with that knucklehead would've saved the franchise from much embarassment, and probably nipped some of the current chemistry problems in the bud. Pacers' management sent the signal to the rest of the team that the rotten apple gets the preferential treatment. That's not classy. :twocents: Sorry, but TPTB had sufficient information to realize that he was really a bad short-term risk and a catastrophic long-term risk - (which is, by the way, the same conclusion the Bulls had reached when they suckered us into taking him.)

But again I will ask, didn't Portland feel the same way about that bad apple Rasheed Wallace? Or how about that lunatic Rodman in San Antonio? Why would the Pistons or Bulls be moron enough to hire guys with such checkered pasts?

They took a risk Jay. They each took risks and they won it all. Walsh deserves all the criticism for Artest. He also deserves it for Bender, particularly for re-signing him. But I would be critiquing him far more if he didn't roll the dice. I think that his conservative nature has been a valid criticism, but not in the last 5-7 years.

He may have bet and lost, but at least he finally bet. :twocents:

Young
05-31-2006, 10:20 PM
But again I will ask, didn't Portland feel the same way about that bad apple Rasheed Wallace? Or how about that lunatic Rodman in San Antonio? Why would the Pistons or Bulls be moron enough to hire guys with such checkered pasts?

The difference between the Rasheed Wallace in Portland and the Rasheed Wallace in Detroit is that the Rasheed Wallace in Portland was on the same team as other knuckleheads and Portland didn't win no championship or appear in the NBA Finals twice. Winning makes everything alright when you are winning.

The difference between Dennis Rodman in San Antonio and Dennis Rodman in Chicago is that Rodman not only won a lot more in Chicago, he also played for one of the greatest coaches in NBA history, especially for motivating his players, of course i'm talking about Phil Jackson. Also remember that Rodman was playing with Michael Jordan, one of the best leaders ever and a player that you followed his lead. So Rodman's antics didn't get in the Bulls way.

Anthem
05-31-2006, 10:59 PM
It's interesting. I thought having Ron traded would lighten Jay's mind. But he's gotten more and more strident as time goes on.

I'm not sure why that is.

ChicagoJ
06-01-2006, 10:28 AM
Do you guys still not get that Ron Artest was already in a totally un-precedented class of behind-the-scenes disruption. That's why Chicago was willing to dump him in the first place.

For those with sensitive eyes: just move on...

Here's the right risk reward profile for Artest: you're handed a revolver with six bullets in the chamber. At what monetary amount are you willing to play Russian roulette? Probably not $20, or even a $1,000. Would you do it for $1 billion? More?

There was no "risk" of Ron Artest going "Artest". That was a near certainty. There were six bullets in the chamber.

Shifting gears, let's use the famous finance analogy: How much would you pay for a company that's been losing money every year? (That's a trick question.)

How much would you pay for a company that's forecast to lose money every year in the future? That's risky, isn't it?

Now, how much would you pay for a corporation (limited liability) that's pretty much guaranteed to lose money every year? Not much, right?

Lastly, how much would you pay for a company (no limit to liability) that's pretty much guaranteed to lose money every year AND destroy the rest of your portfolio? That's a very unsound investment, and that's essentially what the Pacers' management did. Not only that, they put up the entire franchise as collateral.

Anthem, for the longest time, I was mad but I wasn't sure who to blame, and from time-to-time I've even blamed some of the victims like JO or Rick.

But now I'm solely pissed off at the current management for putting the team through this simply because "they fell in love with talent." Inexcusable.

I'm not sure the current front office has earned the right to clean up their own mess.

If they aren't going to hire Kiki, can they lure David Kahn away from the NBDL and back to the Pacers? At this stage, I'd rather have Billy Knight. At least he helped somebody win a championship with one of his trades.

Unclebuck
06-01-2006, 10:43 AM
If they aren't going to hire Kiki,



You've mentioned Kiki a few times. Has he really done a good job there. He really has one player and one player only, and that player was horrible in the playoffs. Kenyon Martin cannot be given away, he acquired two players who are similar to Artest this past season. I could go on.

But no thanks to Kiki.

ChicagoJ
06-01-2006, 10:45 AM
Eh, he's just the first name I think of in terms of a credible GM that's available.

Got somebody better in mind? I'm happy to listen.

indygeezer
06-01-2006, 10:56 AM
I'm gonna quote myself from another thread just because it seems to fit so well here:
_______________________________________-
Not to derail this thread.........but talk about souring your mood. I was watching the Pistons get drubbed the other night and right in the middle of the action my uncle flipped channels to watch Law and Order...guess which episode just happend to be showing.....yeah, THE BRAWL episode. That just really set the tone for the rest of the evening. He didn't wanna watch his Pistons get whupped but he enjoyed watching the brawl episode of L&O.

Please return to your normal threading now.

SoupIsGood
06-01-2006, 01:03 PM
Eh, he's just the first name I think of in terms of a credible GM that's available.

Got somebody better in mind? I'm happy to listen.

Donnie Walsh

rexnom
06-01-2006, 01:09 PM
You've mentioned Kiki a few times. Has he really done a good job there. He really has one player and one player only, and that player was horrible in the playoffs. Kenyon Martin cannot be given away, he acquired two players who are similar to Artest this past season. I could go on.

But no thanks to Kiki.
This reminds me, your boy Musselman got a second interview from Sac...which shows the inevitable...someone will hire him sooner or later. We can't wait forever and not fire Rick if we really don't want him to coach this team. Then again, we could just take initiative and give Rick an extension and he could prove he can coach in a more up-tempo style. I hope this isn't all about not paying two coaches, btw.

ChicagoJ
06-01-2006, 01:21 PM
Donnie Walsh

:rolleyes: I knew somebody would say that (didn't think it would be you.)

If DW were 45 again, I'd say yes.

Its time to move on. His last-ditch effort to win a title was misguided and failed. I'd rather move on and remember the highlights of his career (and there were many.)

brichard
06-01-2006, 02:57 PM
Do you guys still not get that Ron Artest was already in a totally un-precedented class of behind-the-scenes disruption. That's why Chicago was willing to dump him in the first place.


So Jay, what you are saying is that you have had access to every player, including Ron Artest, Charles Barkley, Rasheed Wallace, Mad Max etc., and you can quantifiably place that Ron was in a worse case than any other player in the history of the game in regards to their locker/off the court activities. Furthermore, you have a crystal ball that tells you when a player will rebound from their past afflictions and when they will not.

Sorry dude, but I just don't buy that. You were far early in the "Artest is going to hurt us" camp, and I'll give you kudos for seeing that in advance. However, to say it was just a foregone conclusion is a bit much for me. Kobe has been a lockerroom pain for years, but he was still able to put some rings on his finger. There is no team completley absent from discord and disruption, it is part of the business.

And, your analogy just doesn't hold water for me on the business analysis. If we are going to talk about winning/losing money in the financial sector, we must compare that to wins/losses in the sporting world. If you call a 61 win season and a deep playoff run a loss, color me surprised. Ron isn't a sole proprietor, he is part of the business that is the Indiana Pacers. So, in the business analogy I think you need to look at the team as a whole to see how the parts did/didn't fit together.

Yes, Ron was troubled throughout his tenure. And yes he did some things to disrupt himself and the team. But we also need to balance that view with what he did on the positive side of the ledger. He was a lockdown defender who was a pretty decent scorer. I don't think we have the same amount of wins without Ron than we would with Ron during that season.

Now, in order to be fair, we also must look at what he did the last 2 years. Ron lost money (wins) for us in a major way. And when it did become blatantly obvious that he was never going to change we cut him. To say we held on to him too long is also glaringly obvious now, but you don't invest in a risky investment and expect a guaranteed return.

And there are still suitors out there, most recently Sacramento, who will get in line to see if this stock can rebound to the heights it once hit. It is a high risk/high reward scenario. He is either going to make a huge positive or negative impact on your team. Are the Kings nuts? Maybe so.. maybe not. Only time will tell.

If Sheed were to be what everybody thought he would be based on his cancerous Portland days, Dumars would have looked like an idiot. But he in all of his madness was still able to fit in to that team.

I really don't think it is all that complicated. I think Walsh and Bird either A.) Really thought Ron was going to change or B.) They hoped he would at least change in the short run so they could dump him. They were wrong and they need to be held accountable for it.

I just don't think it was as cut and dried as everybody makes it out to be.

SoupIsGood
06-01-2006, 03:48 PM
:rolleyes: I knew somebody would say that (didn't think it would be you.)

If DW were 45 again, I'd say yes.

Its time to move on. His last-ditch effort to win a title was misguided and failed. I'd rather move on and remember the highlights of his career (and there were many.)

Sorry but the thought of someone like Kiki taking over really scares me. I'm just fine with Donnie right now. :)

naptownmenace
06-01-2006, 04:08 PM
So Jay, what you are saying is that you have had access to every player, including Ron Artest, Charles Barkley, Rasheed Wallace, Mad Max etc., and you can quantifiably place that Ron was in a worse case than any other player in the history of the game in regards to their locker/off the court activities. Furthermore, you have a crystal ball that tells you when a player will rebound from their past afflictions and when they will not.

Sorry dude, but I just don't buy that. You were far early in the "Artest is going to hurt us" camp, and I'll give you kudos for seeing that in advance. However, to say it was just a foregone conclusion is a bit much for me. Kobe has been a lockerroom pain for years, but he was still able to put some rings on his finger. There is no team completley absent from discord and disruption, it is part of the business.

And, your analogy just doesn't hold water for me on the business analysis. If we are going to talk about winning/losing money in the financial sector, we must compare that to wins/losses in the sporting world. If you call a 61 win season and a deep playoff run a loss, color me surprised. Ron isn't a sole proprietor, he is part of the business that is the Indiana Pacers. So, in the business analogy I think you need to look at the team as a whole to see how the parts did/didn't fit together.

Yes, Ron was troubled throughout his tenure. And yes he did some things to disrupt himself and the team. But we also need to balance that view with what he did on the positive side of the ledger. He was a lockdown defender who was a pretty decent scorer. I don't think we have the same amount of wins without Ron than we would with Ron during that season.

Now, in order to be fair, we also must look at what he did the last 2 years. Ron lost money (wins) for us in a major way. And when it did become blatantly obvious that he was never going to change we cut him. To say we held on to him too long is also glaringly obvious now, but you don't invest in a risky investment and expect a guaranteed return.

And there are still suitors out there, most recently Sacramento, who will get in line to see if this stock can rebound to the heights it once hit. It is a high risk/high reward scenario. He is either going to make a huge positive or negative impact on your team. Are the Kings nuts? Maybe so.. maybe not. Only time will tell.

If Sheed were to be what everybody thought he would be based on his cancerous Portland days, Dumars would have looked like an idiot. But he in all of his madness was still able to fit in to that team.

I really don't think it is all that complicated. I think Walsh and Bird either A.) Really thought Ron was going to change or B.) They hoped he would at least change in the short run so they could dump him. They were wrong and they need to be held accountable for it.

I just don't think it was as cut and dried as everybody makes it out to be.


That to me was the perfect post to sum up the whole Artest episode. Brilliantly put, my man.

Unclebuck
06-01-2006, 04:28 PM
Great post brichard.

I will never criticize TPTB for first acquiring Artest, and then doing everything they could to get him to be the best player he could be and to fit into the Pacers team. I will never criticize them for "keeping Ron too long" I appreciate the fact they they did everything they could to make it work, and for that I will continue to be a Pacers fan and continue to spend lost of money going to games.

ChicagoJ
06-01-2006, 04:31 PM
So Jay, what you are saying is that you have had access to every player, including Ron Artest, Charles Barkley, Rasheed Wallace, Mad Max etc., and you can quantifiably place that Ron was in a worse case than any other player in the history of the game in regards to their locker/off the court activities. Furthermore, you have a crystal ball that tells you when a player will rebound from their past afflictions and when they will not.

Sorry dude, but I just don't buy that. You were far early in the "Artest is going to hurt us" camp, and I'll give you kudos for seeing that in advance. However, to say it was just a foregone conclusion is a bit much for me. -snip-

Did I have access to that personally? No, of course not. But I knew what Jerry Krause thought of him, and he knew a thing or two about Rodman's and even Pippen's occasional anti-team outbursts.

There are things that Krause told suite-owners for the Bulls about Ron's mental health that probably can't be said anymore because of the HIPAA laws. Those are things you just can't change; you can only hope the guy changes his mind about ignoring remedies/ medication that were available to him to keep those problems to a minimum. Barring an about-face on that, continued problems are a certainty. That's certainly a higher risk that any comparable player that's been mentioned, and that's why I was always opposed to any trade scenario that had him joining the Pacers and never backed down from that position.

brichard
06-01-2006, 06:49 PM
That's certainly a higher risk that any comparable player that's been mentioned.

Do you know that with all certainty? Apparently you do have some inside information regarding Ron, but do you have it for all the other players? Maybe Rodman is a complete sideshow, maybe he has medical issues. Barkley and his temper could definitely need some counseling. And I think it is pretty common knowledge that Vernon Maxwell has some major issues, in spite of winning a championship in Houston.

ChicagoJ
06-01-2006, 07:33 PM
I think Barkley has admitted to being an alcholic and a gambling addict. And he retired with zero rings. Granted, I liked Barkley and would have liked to have him as a "second-banana" alongside Reggie.

I have no clue what to think about Rodman, but I always considered him an ego-maniac self-promoter who got his act in line when he had to deal with Phil and Michael. Maybe I'm wrong. Certainly the SA Spurs don't have good memories of his days there.

Maxwell is probably the best comparison, and there are two important differences: although he was a starter for one of the Rockets championship teams, that team wasn't built around him, it was build around Hakeem and a pool of basically interchangeable players that complimented Hakeem, such as Horry, Kenny Smith, Cassell, Thorpe/ Drexler, Elie etc. (6 guys averaged between 9 and 14 ppg, that team was balanced.) I'm tired of being subtle, the Pacers were trying to take a guy with b*-p*l*r d*s*r*er who refused to take his m*d*c*t*on and make him one of the two cornerstones of the franchise. That's dumb. D-U-M. Dumb.

Secondly, during the Rockets' second championship, they acquired Drexler and he essentially replaced Maxwell, who only played in one playoff game before taking a leave of absence.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/vernon_maxwell/bio.html

I think the Rockets knew what they were doing when they traded for his replacement while he was still on the team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1995.html

This is a fascinating re-read of his wacky behavior:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Maxwell

I'd forgotten about the herpes incident. What a tool.

brichard
06-01-2006, 10:22 PM
I'm tired of being subtle, the Pacers were trying to take a guy with b*-p*l*r d*s*r*er who refused to take his m*d*c*t*on and make him one of the two cornerstones of the franchise. That's dumb. D-U-M. Dumb.

Well, he was relatively cheap for what he offered in production. I still say that there are those with his disorder that can overcome it. And never say never, perhaps age will finally mature him and he'll take the meds routinely.

Robertmto
06-02-2006, 03:50 AM
I really need to learn what TPTB means...

Bball
06-02-2006, 09:27 AM
I really need to learn what TPTB means...

The Pacer Tomato Brigade




























Oh... The Powers That Be

-Bball

NuffSaid
06-02-2006, 04:56 PM
Any trade rumor that comes out long before the season is truly over isn't worth paying much attention to. They're all speculation at this point because nobody can really do anything until the season is officially over, and that's not until a winner stems from the NBA Finals.

So, I take every rumor with a grain or two of salt. While Bird has said he's not shopping JO, it's clear he's listening to offers, but it had better be a "Godfather-like" offer...one he can't refuse...before there's any truth to JO being moved. Because until then, it just ain't gonna happen.

Like any GM/true Pacers fan, I'll listen to all rumors, but until I read it on Pacers.com or in the IndyStar (in print or online) that JO has been traded, it just ain't so.

Robertmto
06-02-2006, 06:09 PM
Oh... The Powers That Be

-Bball

Thanks