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View Full Version : here's to you, mister NBA conspiracy theorist- Tell us who the NBA wants to win



Slick Pinkham
05-23-2006, 05:12 PM
I know that we will hear from you eventually, but I anticipate that the argument will be tailored to the circumstances.

If Miami gets some calls, you will say it's because "they" (TPTB in the NBA) want Shaq and Wade in the finals--"star power".

Or if Detroit gets some calls, you will say "they" want Detroit, because that will result in a more competitive finals.

Or if Phoenix gets some calls, it will be because of Nash/Marion "star power" and exciting offense that the NBA would like to showcase in the finals.

Or if Dallas get some calls, it's because Dallas has a bigger national following and a bigger regional TV market.

So please go on the record now, before the series starts, and tell us what the Swami David Stern has decided is in the best interests of the NBA.

Tell me what you expect to happen, mister NBA conspiracy theorist, so I can raise a Bud light in your honor.

DisplacedKnick
05-23-2006, 05:18 PM
Dontcha know? The league wants the Knicks to win. That's why they invented the Allan Houston rule - which we promptly screwed up by not using it on Allan Houston.

Eindar
05-23-2006, 05:21 PM
No brainer!

Obviously they want Dallas/Miami, capturing 2 big markets, big names, and an exciting finals that casual fans will want to watch.

But most importantly, they want between 6 and 7 games, regardless of who is playing, to maximize butts in the seats and minutes of advertising space sold.

Eindar
05-23-2006, 05:22 PM
Dontcha know? The league wants the Knicks to win. That's why they invented the Allan Houston rule - which we promptly screwed up by not using it on Allan Houston.

Don't forget about Patrick Ewing's frozen envelope and Stern's comments today on how the league needs the Knicks to right the ship...

Moses
05-23-2006, 05:24 PM
Larry..Johnson..4 point play...

Wait a minute...

FrenchConnection
05-23-2006, 05:24 PM
Eindar is right in both cases. In my two favorite sports (NBA and NHL), you can see officials working to ensure long series. But, in the end they want Dallas and Miami, but there are no bad markets or stories among these teams. It is not like there is a small market among them. Now in the NHL, they obviously don't want my Sabres to advance (trying to grow hockey in the south, larger market, etc...), but that is another story.

Slick Pinkham
05-23-2006, 05:31 PM
Eindar, FC;

Do you actually believe the NBA directs officials to enforce a certain outcome?

Seriously?

Shade
05-23-2006, 05:36 PM
I'll say Miami and Phoenix. The Suns feature the same up-tempo, exciting offense the Mavs feature, plus they have the 2-time defending MVP.

But, mostly, I'll bet Stern hates Mark Cuban with a passion and never wants him anywhere near the :trophy:.

vapacersfan
05-23-2006, 05:38 PM
Wait, you mean people are using logic and actually think the players decide the games.....

Nah, it can't be.

VF21
05-23-2006, 05:44 PM
But, mostly, I'll bet Stern hates Mark Cuban with a passion and never wants him anywhere near the :trophy:.

Wow. I didn't realize it until right this very moment, but I actually agree with David Stern on something.

Who wudda thunk?

:buddies:

Moses
05-23-2006, 05:44 PM
Wait, you mean people are using logic and actually think the players decide the games.....

Nah, it can't be.
The National Basketball Association fines vapacersfan $45,000 dollars for making negative comments about the officiating.

CableKC
05-23-2006, 06:14 PM
I thought that this thread was about how the NBA Draft is rigged.

Although its not...I will be the first to say that the Bulls will not get the #1 or #2 pick sent to them from the Knicks due to the Eddy Curry trade....I wouldn't be surprised if the Bulls get the #3 or #4 pick.

My theory is that Stern isn't going to give the Bulls a top 2 pick just because they had the fortune to deal with a moronic GM that can't GM his way out of a paper bag despite having one of the best coaches in the league.

DisplacedKnick
05-23-2006, 06:30 PM
Don't forget about Patrick Ewing's frozen envelope and Stern's comments today on how the league needs the Knicks to right the ship...

Ooooh - goodie! :dance: :dance: :cheers: :applaud: :applaud: :jump:

You mean right before the lottery the league office will void last summer's Eddy Curry trade?

Though to be serious, there's no player I'm ready to kill myself over not getting - the difference between 1 and 20 may be smaller than in any draft in league history.

Eindar
05-23-2006, 06:44 PM
Ooooh - goodie! :dance: :dance: :cheers: :applaud: :applaud: :jump:

You mean right before the lottery the league office will void last summer's Eddy Curry trade?

Though to be serious, there's no player I'm ready to kill myself over not getting - the difference between 1 and 20 may be smaller than in any draft in league history.

No shenanigans this year. We'll see who Oden ends up playing for, however.

Eindar
05-23-2006, 06:52 PM
Eindar, FC;

Do you actually believe the NBA directs officials to enforce a certain outcome?

Seriously?

No I don't think the NBA directs officials to enforce a certain outcome. I think that officials who enforce a certain outcome are allowed to continue refereeing in the NBA. If one team is clearly better than another, there is nothing the refs can (or will) do to decide a game/series. But in a close game, 1 or 2 calls, especially momentum changers, can turn the game from a 50/50 game into a 70/30 game, and you'd be hard pressed to call it anything other than a questionable call, if you didn't have the track record of several years to lean on. Also, it's much harder to do this in the playoffs, due to the added focus. I think, if you buy into this, the fact that you can massage the standings to get home court advantage for teams you'd like to see in the finals, or get big market teams into the playoffs is enough. Then, with competition being as close as it is in the playoffs, 1 or 2 calls can decide the outcome of an entire series.

Then there's the whole question of why NBA officials' mistakes and discipline are never aired, ever, and the fact that they make waaay more money than what the market demands. Perhaps they are paid for their silence, perhaps not.

I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm 100% certain that the fix is in, but what I am willing to say is that it's certainly possible.

JayRedd
05-23-2006, 07:23 PM
in the end they want Dallas and Miami, but there are no bad markets or stories among these teams. It is not like there is a small market among them.

From a market standpoint, Dallas is far and away the largest, followed by Detroit. Phoenix and then Miami have quite a lot less actually. But it's not like we're talking about Portland, Indy or Charlotte in any of these cases.

But as for national ratings, I think Miami with its two marquee stars would be The Stern Administration's top choice. In the West, I'd have to say Nash
and his Canadian MVP trophies would be more of an attention getter nationally than some shaggy haired German dudes and a bunch of nobodies.

RANK -- Market Area -- TV Homes
1 New York - 7,375,530
2 Los Angeles - 5,536,430
3 Chicago - 3,430,790
4 Philadelphia - 2,925,560
5 Boston (Manchester) - 2,375,310
6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose - 2,355,740
7 Dallas-Ft. Worth - 2,336,140
8 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) - 2,252,550
9 Atlanta 2,097,220
10 Houston - 1,938,670
11 Detroit - 1,936,350
12 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) - 1,710,400
13 Seattle-Tacoma - 1,701,950
14 Phoenix (Prescott) - 1,660,430
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul - 1,652,940
16 Cleveland-Akron (Canton) - 1,541,780
17 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale - 1,522,960
18 Denver - 1,415,180
19 Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto - 1,345,820
20 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn - 1,345,700
21 St. Louis - 1,222,380
22 Pittsburgh - 1,169,800
23 Portland, OR - 1,099,890
24 Baltimore - 1,089,220
25 Indianapolis - 1,053,750

Slick Pinkham
05-23-2006, 07:46 PM
From a market standpoint, Dallas is far and away the largest, followed by Detroit...But as for national ratings, I think Miami with its two marquee stars would be The Stern Administration's top choice. In the West, I'd have to say Nash and his Canadian MVP trophies would be more of an attention getter nationally

We can tell that the fix is in if Detroit or Miami wins, and then the winner faces either Phoenix or Dallas, and if THEN if one of those 4 teams wins in the finals.

;)

JayRedd
05-23-2006, 08:01 PM
We can tell that the fix is in if Detroit or Miami wins, and then the winner faces either Phoenix or Dallas, and if THEN if one of those 4 teams wins in the finals.

;)

Exactly

SoupIsGood
05-23-2006, 09:28 PM
Lowgators

Eindar
05-23-2006, 10:20 PM
We can tell that the fix is in if Detroit or Miami wins, and then the winner faces either Phoenix or Dallas, and if THEN if one of those 4 teams wins in the finals.

;)

You made a joke, but you have also proven a point. Any of those 4 teams would be good for the finals. Which, to my mind, means that the refs have already done their jobs by getting those teams home court, and eliminating the small market teams in the 1st round. At this point, they can call games completely straight, with a possible lean towards the home team, that way there's no concern over someone getting "jobbed" out of a title.

vapacersfan
05-23-2006, 10:58 PM
The National Basketball Association fines vapacersfan $45,000 dollars for making negative comments about the officiating.

Yeah, I figured my comments on blogvapacersfan.com didnt help any, but hey, as I have always said "you gotta do what you gotta do"

JayRedd
05-23-2006, 11:04 PM
You made a joke, but you have also proven a point. Any of those 4 teams would be good for the finals. Which, to my mind, means that the refs have already done their jobs by getting those teams home court, and eliminating the small market teams in the 1st round. At this point, they can call games completely straight, with a possible lean towards the home team, that way there's no concern over someone getting "jobbed" out of a title.

mwaaahhahahhahha....mmmwwwwahhahahhahahhahahha

Excellent, Bavetta

Robertmto
05-23-2006, 11:17 PM
If the NBA chose someone to win LBJ and the Cavs would sweep the Clippers in the Finals.

grace
05-23-2006, 11:26 PM
Eindar, FC;

Do you actually believe the NBA directs officials to enforce a certain outcome?

Seriously?

Stern rules and I have proof.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=150595#post150595


[The scene: Feb. 2005, the commish's office]

Commish: [answering intercom on his desk] Yes, [insert name of commish's secretary].

Secretary: Excuse the interruption your Holiness, but Ron Artest is on line one.

Commish: [picks up the phone] Hello Ron. What can I do for you? [salivating at the thought of telling Ron there is no way in hell he'll be allowed back this season.]

Ron: Hello, Mr. Stern. I'm going to be in New York this weekend visiting family. And since I'm going to be in the neighborhood I thought maybe you and me could have some fun.

Commish: [visibly drooling at the thought of going clubbing with a music mogul like Ron Artest] Just what did you have in mind, Ron?

Ron: Well, Mr. Stern, we have this thing here called the Pacer Digest. My man Anthony lurks there for us. Anyway, there's this one dude Uncle Buck who claims you and I are having a meeting on Monday. He's usually right about stuff like this so I thought I should call you and invite you out to lunch.

Commish: That's very nice of you to offer, Ron. Be at my office at noon on Monday. We'll send my secretary to the vending machine to get some snacks.

[the scene: Monday at the Commish's office. The commish and Ron are sitting on the floor drinking diet coke and eating out of a big bag of potato chips. "All My Children" is on the TV.]

Commish: Susan Lucci. She's hot.

Ron: For her age sir, she's smokin'.

Commish: [during commercial] So Ronnie, how often does my name come up on this Pacer's Digest?

Ron: I don't know exactly how often you're mentioned by name or in effigy, but you're always there in spirit, sir.

Commish: Let's get on line and see how many threads our meeting is generating.

Ron: O.K. [Ron agrees hesitantly, worrying that the Islamic site will pop up again]

Commish: Oh look, a pacemates thread. You know Ronnie I've always thought the pacemates are the hottest chicks in the league.

Ron: [surprised] Hotter than the Miami dancers, sir?

Commish: If I wanted to watch silicone giggle I'd have my secretary do jumping jacks.

Ron: Well sir, if you think our pacemates are hot check this out.

Commish: Ashley :love:

Ron: Sir I really think you should sit down before you pass out.

Commish: I have to meet this goddess of timeouts. You have to help me, Ronnie. [falls to his knees]

Ron: [helps Commish back into his seat] I'd like to help you, sir, but Ashley already has quite a following sir. I'm afraid if I brought her to you the people on the board really would kill you.

Commish: There has to be something we can do. I know, I'll arrange it so that has been Dale Davis can play for the Pacers again. Everyone will be so preoccupied with their assumptions that he's the second coming they won't even notice the goddess is gone.

Ron: [shake head no] That would only work with that Peck guy.

Commish: [angry] All right, fine! [secretary runs in with paper work] Not that kind of fine, [insert name of secretary]. Get me Vern Fleming on the phone. [secretary leaves]

Ron: [:confused: ] Sir, the Dale Davis thing is a good idea, but Vern Fleming? What's next? Are you going to bring Roger Brown back from the dead?

Commish: Don't think I can't do it. If I can keep everyone quiet about me paying off the refs I can raise the dead too! [phone rings, commish picks it up] Vern? How's he coming?...I know he's capable of using correct English. He did at my luncheon...Tell the Wise One I want The Letter by the end of the week. [hang up]

Ron: Sir?

Commish: Have a seat Ronnie. What I'm about to tell you cannot leave this room. I must have Ashley. To that end Larry Bird will write a letter to me asking for your reinstatement. I, being a benevolent God, I mean commissioner, will, out of the goodness of my heart, allow you to come back. In turn, Pacer fans everywhere will rejoice. I will be able to once again show my face in Conseco. I will be able to see my dear Ashley. All will be right with the world.

Ron: Mr. Stern I do want to play again more than anything, but I have to be honest. I can't sacrifice Ashley. Not even to feed my family. We'll survive on what I make as a model. Really, I can wait until next year.

Commish: It is not for you to decide, bipolar man. I speak it. It will be so.:mib:

Unclebuck
05-23-2006, 11:28 PM
If you look at the ratings for the last round of the playoffs, the Spurs and Mavs had the higher ratings. The Mavs are popular, lasy year the Mavs Suns series in round two was the most popular second round series

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/nielsen-more.htm


Rank Show title Network Viewers in millions
1. The Sopranos HBO 8.2
2. Spurs/Mavericks (Friday) ESPN 5.6
3. Mavericks/Spurs(Wednesday) TNT 5.4
4. WWE Raw (Monday, 10 p.m) USA 5.0
4. Fairly OddParents Nick 5.0
6. WWE Raw (Monday, 9 p.m) USA 4.8
6. Nextel Cup Race FX 4.8
8. Spurs/Mavericks (Monday) TNT 4.6
9. Pistons/Cavaliers (Friday) TNT 4.5
10. Cavaliers/Pistons (Wednesday) TNT 4.4
10. Clippers/Suns (Tuesday) TNT 4.4
12. Pistons/Cavaliers (Monday) TNT 4.2
13. Big Love HBO 4.1
13. Yankees/Mets ESPN 4.1
15. Nets/Heat (Tuesday) TNT 4.0
15. Suns/Clippers (Thursday) TNT 4.0

Arcadian
05-24-2006, 12:28 AM
If both the Suns and Mavs make it to the finals I will believe there is a conspiracy.

Robertmto
05-24-2006, 12:47 AM
If both the Suns and Mavs make it to the finals I will believe there is a conspiracy.

Haha :laugh:

bulletproof
05-24-2006, 12:58 AM
Do I think there's a spoken directive from the league to officals? No. Do I think that everyone involved is acutely aware that higher ratings mean more ad revenue and that affects their decision making? Absolutely. It's a business. Do I think the desire for higher ratings (read: more revenue) affects the game and how it's "managed" by the league. Absolutely. Again, it's a business. And the primary objective of a business is to maximize profits. It's naive to think that it all comes down to "may the best team win."

fwpacerfan
05-24-2006, 06:58 AM
Eindar, FC;

Do you actually believe the NBA directs officials to enforce a certain outcome?

Seriously?


Not directly. I do think the league office tells officials what they want them looking for in a particular series. I think you will tell who Stern's boys want to win by how often 3 seconds and offensive fouls are called on Shaq and how often traveling is called against Wade.

Due to the nature of the game, NBA officials can and sometimes do, have a drastic affect on outcomes of games. They could very easily cause one team to win or lose a series and because there are so few of them a conspiracy could be covered up. On the other hand, it would only take one of them to write a book, make $99 million dollars and retire in Grand Cayman to take the whole league down.

fwpacerfan
05-24-2006, 07:06 AM
If you look at the ratings for the last round of the playoffs, the Spurs and Mavs had the higher ratings. The Mavs are popular, lasy year the Mavs Suns series in round two was the most popular second round series

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/nielsen-more.htm


Rank Show title Network Viewers in millions
1. The Sopranos HBO 8.2
2. Spurs/Mavericks (Friday) ESPN 5.6
3. Mavericks/Spurs(Wednesday) TNT 5.4
4. WWE Raw (Monday, 10 p.m) USA 5.0
4. Fairly OddParents Nick 5.0
6. WWE Raw (Monday, 9 p.m) USA 4.8
6. Nextel Cup Race FX 4.8
8. Spurs/Mavericks (Monday) TNT 4.6
9. Pistons/Cavaliers (Friday) TNT 4.5
10. Cavaliers/Pistons (Wednesday) TNT 4.4
10. Clippers/Suns (Tuesday) TNT 4.4
12. Pistons/Cavaliers (Monday) TNT 4.2
13. Big Love HBO 4.1
13. Yankees/Mets ESPN 4.1
15. Nets/Heat (Tuesday) TNT 4.0
15. Suns/Clippers (Thursday) TNT 4.0

I'm glad SOMETHING finally took down the Fairly OddParents!!!!!

I'm glad my kid isn't the only one watching that show. This list says a lot about the state of our country though when only 400000 more people watched Spurs/Mavericks than watched 'Wrasslin.'

RWB
05-24-2006, 07:11 AM
A pure fix? Nah, but since it seems the refs are given the right to use their discretion or interpretation on rules/calls then yes it is only marginally fixed.

Skaut_Ech
05-24-2006, 08:08 AM
If both the Suns and Mavs make it to the finals I will believe there is a conspiracy.

:laugh::hmm:

I gotta tell ya, I might start to wonder just a teensy bit.

Unclebuck
05-24-2006, 08:20 AM
Do I think there's a spoken directive from the league to officals? No. Do I think that everyone involved is acutely aware that higher ratings mean more ad revenue and that affects their decision making? Absolutely. It's a business. Do I think the desire for higher ratings (read: more revenue) affects the game and how it's "managed" by the league. Absolutely. Again, it's a business. And the primary objective of a business is to maximize profits. It's naive to think that it all comes down to "may the best team win."



Well then I'm 100% naive, because I don't believe a word of what you're saying. And it amazes me that so many people believe what you are suggesting or even worse.

Slick Pinkham
05-24-2006, 08:22 AM
... it would only take one of them to write a book, make $99 million dollars and retire in Grand Cayman to take the whole league down.

That's why I don't think there is anything underhanded going on. Hundreds of officials would have been involved over the decades. Any one of them pulls a Jose Conseco move and writes a book, then the league crumbles. And officials are not saints. Some have done time for tax evasion, drug dealing, etc. Some of them would want to write the tell-all book.

A far more likely way in which games could be affected is by associations between gamblers and officials, though I think that the NBA watches this pretty closely.

bulletproof
05-24-2006, 10:21 AM
Well then I'm 100% naive, because I don't believe a word of what you're saying. And it amazes me that so many people believe what you are suggesting or even worse.

You don't believe the NBA is a business?

Unclebuck
05-24-2006, 11:04 AM
You don't believe the NBA is a business?


Yes I believe it is a business

ChicagoJ
05-24-2006, 12:22 PM
:laugh::hmm:

I gotta tell ya, I might start to wonder just a teensy bit.

I'm tellin' ya, I'm looking forward to the Spurs and Mavs playing again in The Finals. That will be a great series.

If the league makes it a "Best of 37" game series, we'll know its all about the ad revenue.

waxman
05-24-2006, 01:03 PM
RANK -- Market Area -- TV Homes
1 New York - 7,375,530
2 Los Angeles - 5,536,430
3 Chicago - 3,430,790
4 Philadelphia - 2,925,560
5 Boston (Manchester) - 2,375,310
6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose - 2,355,740
7 Dallas-Ft. Worth - 2,336,140
8 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) - 2,252,550
9 Atlanta 2,097,220
10 Houston - 1,938,670
11 Detroit - 1,936,350
12 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) - 1,710,400
13 Seattle-Tacoma - 1,701,950
14 Phoenix (Prescott) - 1,660,430
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul - 1,652,940
16 Cleveland-Akron (Canton) - 1,541,780
17 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale - 1,522,960
18 Denver - 1,415,180
19 Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto - 1,345,820
20 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn - 1,345,700
21 St. Louis - 1,222,380
22 Pittsburgh - 1,169,800
23 Portland, OR - 1,099,890
24 Baltimore - 1,089,220
25 Indianapolis - 1,053,750

This list is fixed....:-p Dallas/Ft.Worth is one market, fine... SF/Oak/...SanJose is one market? OK. But if thats the case you gotta include the Phoenix Metropolitan area which puts it well over 3 million. And shouldn't include Prescott (and its huge population of 10,000) which is about 2hours north of Phoenix. ;)

bulletproof
05-24-2006, 01:10 PM
Yes I believe it is a business

So then the NBA would be one of the few big businesses (which happens to be a monopoly, by the way) that you feel is 100% above board and puts its customers first over profits? And why do you think the NBA operates differently from any other business?

efx
05-24-2006, 01:18 PM
Seeing as the business aspect of the nba also includes the team owners that becomes the reason I don't believe in certain markets being treated differently than others just because of the stink that the unfairly treated owners would raise.

Refs makes mistakes. That's about as far as any conspiracy goes.

bulletproof
05-24-2006, 01:20 PM
Refs makes mistakes. That's about as far as any conspiracy goes.

So refs aren't influenced by external pressures or forces? Or even their own personal biases and desires? Are you saying they're not human?

Slick Pinkham
05-24-2006, 01:22 PM
So then the NBA would be one of the few big businesses that you feel is 100% above board and puts its customers first over profits?

I think that they attempt to maximize profits but not by rigging games. The chance of having a game-fixing scandal blowing up in their face is far too great.

Not many long-term successful business do every illegal thing possible to maximize profits.

People see a poorly officiated game or a blown call or even a 50-50 call go against them and see all sorts of conspiracy demons.

The simplest explantion (Occam's razor principle) is probably the best: Officiating is subject to human error and sometimes they make mistakes. When they do, about 50% of the people feel wronged and a few of them have elaborate fantasies about vast conspiracies.

DisplacedKnick
05-24-2006, 01:24 PM
This list is fixed....:-p Dallas/Ft.Worth is one market, fine... SF/Oak/...SanJose is one market? OK. But if thats the case you gotta include the Phoenix Metropolitan area which puts it well over 3 million. And shouldn't include Prescott (and its huge population of 10,000) which is about 2hours north of Phoenix. ;)

It's more fixed than that. Being as I'm waiting for the IT guy to install our new network printer I pulled off census data for Indianapolis and the "donut" counties:

Marion - 863,133
Boone - 52,061
Hamilton - 240,685
Hancock - 63,138
Hendricks - 127,483
Johnson - 128,436
Morgan - 69,778
Shelby - 43,152

Total - 1,587,866

And if you add Delaware & Madison Counties (Muncie & Alexandria) you get to 1,834,640

I have a hard time seeing the Indy market area as being just a touch over a million - what did they do - add Carmel and Noblesville and leave everything else out?

bulletproof
05-24-2006, 01:26 PM
pacertom, I think the power of suggestion (whether overt or subtly implied) can be very powerful indeed. Especially when the incentive is money and profit.

Chauncey
05-24-2006, 01:40 PM
It's more fixed than that. Being as I'm waiting for the IT guy to install our new network printer I pulled off census data for Indianapolis and the "donut" counties:

Marion - 863,133
Boone - 52,061
Hamilton - 240,685
Hancock - 63,138
Hendricks - 127,483
Johnson - 128,436
Morgan - 69,778
Shelby - 43,152

Total - 1,587,866

And if you add Delaware & Madison Counties (Muncie & Alexandria) you get to 1,834,640

I have a hard time seeing the Indy market area as being just a touch over a million - what did they do - add Carmel and Noblesville and leave everything else out?

You're looking at populations....I think UB's list was for TV homes

Slick Pinkham
05-24-2006, 01:41 PM
I think that the league obviously discusses "point of emphasis" when they think certain existing rules are not being enforced. People can imply that they do target a player or a team. After years of not ever calling a palming violation, they started calling it. Was that targeting Iverson? Philly fans think so. I think it some caoches complained and they starting calling it more often against whoever does it (though not often enough).

I live in south Florida. Miami Heat fans genuinely think that Shaq is being officiated differently now and the league is "against them" and fouling him off the court.

I think that teams have stop trying to be physical and instead crowd his elbow and look to flop when he turns. Or they beat him to a spot, and he's not as quick as he used to be. Maybe a point of emphasis was to call offensive fouls if the offensive player bangs through a defender who beat him to a spot. If so, that's not a new rule, doesn't target Shaq, and isn't a league conspiracy against Shaq.

Everybody feels they are victims, is my point. Fans of every team in the league (including the 4 finalists) are convinced of a conspiracy against them.

Alleging a conspiracy is an extraordinary claim, and Carl Sagan said something like "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

I see no evidence, extraordinary or otherwise.

efx
05-24-2006, 01:52 PM
So refs aren't influenced by external pressures or forces? Or even their own personal biases and desires? Are you saying they're not human?

I don't believe the leauge puts any specifc pressure on the refs.
Are they biased on a personal level against certain teams/players?

Maybe, but then again I think the best refs in the game have learned to live above that.

There isn't a single team in the NBA who fans don't feel like they are wronged by the higher ups at some point or another. That just seems to indicate that certain fans are looking to put their frustrations of their team on some outside source.

RWB
05-24-2006, 01:57 PM
Maybe, but then again I think the best refs in the game have learned to live above that.


Maybe, let's ask David Harrison? :devil:

efx
05-24-2006, 02:01 PM
Maybe, let's ask David Harrison? :devil:

David Harrisson has never comitted a foul in his entire career ;)

sweabs
05-24-2006, 03:05 PM
Eindar is right in both cases. In my two favorite sports (NBA and NHL), you can see officials working to ensure long series. But, in the end they want Dallas and Miami, but there are no bad markets or stories among these teams. It is not like there is a small market among them. Now in the NHL, they obviously don't want my Sabres to advance (trying to grow hockey in the south, larger market, etc...), but that is another story.

What do you think about the theory that Edmonton is winning and advancing in this year's playoffs because of help from the refs (missing blatant calls, and calling "ticky-tack" stuff on the opponents). Betman's way of getting a small-market team into the finals? Trying to put an end to the doubts regarding small market teams which resonated during the lockout?

Unclebuck
05-24-2006, 03:07 PM
So then the NBA would be one of the few big businesses (which happens to be a monopoly, by the way) that you feel is 100% above board and puts its customers first over profits? And why do you think the NBA operates differently from any other business?

The reward is not worth the risk

JayRedd
05-24-2006, 04:42 PM
It's more fixed than that. Being as I'm waiting for the IT guy to install our new network printer I pulled off census data for Indianapolis and the "donut" counties:

Marion - 863,133
Boone - 52,061
Hamilton - 240,685
Hancock - 63,138
Hendricks - 127,483
Johnson - 128,436
Morgan - 69,778
Shelby - 43,152

Total - 1,587,866

And if you add Delaware & Madison Counties (Muncie & Alexandria) you get to 1,834,640

I have a hard time seeing the Indy market area as being just a touch over a million - what did they do - add Carmel and Noblesville and leave everything else out?

The original TV market rankings were taken from Nielson's 2004 data and the numbers are television households, not population.

Eindar
05-24-2006, 04:56 PM
So then why is it that the NBA won't release salary figures for NBA referees? My dad has been at a game where an official paid for a soda with a roll of 100s as big as your fist. And yet there are hundreds of officials as good as the current NBA refs, so why are these refs paid so well, and so secretly? Why is Ronnie Nunez Jr. an NBA ref? He's patently terrible, yet there are plenty of good refs in the NBDL who can't get a shot? Is it because his dad was a ref, so he's "in the know" and could be brought in safely? Why do you think the refs are essentially lifers, no matter how good or bad they are?

Why was there such a volatile reaction when Van Gundy said he had an insider tell him that the refs were going to be calling Yao Ming a lot tighter, once they were up 2-0 on the Mavs? Why did the referee's union call for him to be fired, and why did Stern feel it neccessary to fine him something like 100 grand, the most ever given in fines to a coach? Obviously it undermines the credibility of the league, but Cuban has theorized the same in the past, and received a quarter of that fine, despite being AN OWNER. Think it might have something to do with the fact that Van Gundy intimated that he had proof? And why, after the huge fine and the demand from the refs that Van Gundy be immediately fired, did Stern go one step further, warning Van Gundy that if he brought it up again, he's be kicked out of the entire league?

I'll give all the non-conspiracy theorists a pass on the fact that the refs are never publicly held accountable for their actions, and in fact, the NBA has never publicly acknowledged that there is any punishment whatsoever for bad calls, but I'm waiting to hear your excuses as to why it's neccessary to keep such a tight lid on the annual salary of an NBA referee, to the point that literally NOBODY knows, or can even ballpark the salary of an NBA referee. Also, feel free to explain all the things I've mentioned above. It should be simple, since the NBA is soooo above-board and completely legit.

BoomBaby31
05-24-2006, 05:03 PM
Eindar, FC;

Do you actually believe the NBA directs officials to enforce a certain outcome?

Seriously?

I don't believe the NBA directs them but, the other officials follow role when a certian thing is happening. I don't think the NBA is full out rigid, nor do I think any other American "true" sport is. Some Games/matches are, boxing happens all of the time, last years Superbowl was 100% no denying altered on ALL levels for the Steelers. Even ANY DIEHARD Steelers fan would tell you the game was favored to the steelers. That was one of the most altered games in American sports history. I don't have any recent memories of NBA games that will change my mind of the sports like last years superbowl. There is some altering in SOME games not all though.

vapacersfan
05-24-2006, 05:04 PM
Any time this discussion comes up I cant help but remember back a couple of year ago when the Lakers were in the finals, and they had the refs miked up, and the head ref was actually caught on tape reminding his co workers that Shaq had "5" fouls and to be careful with any calls that were made.

As for the topic at hand, I am once again finding myself agree with BP, which is really scary.

I never beleived that the NBA would operate under any type of conspiracy (it would get out sooner or later) but these guys have some bias, I am certain of that.

Slick Pinkham
05-24-2006, 05:49 PM
So then why is it that the NBA won't release salary figures for NBA referees?

Perhaps it is in their collective bargaining agreement that their salaries not be released publicly. That is very common in collective bargaining for a non publicly traded entity like the National Basketbal Association.


My dad has been at a game where an official paid for a soda with a roll of 100s as big as your fist.

There's your proof right there. Any guy with a money clip is a crook. :rolleyes: Never mind that these guys practically LIVE on the road.


Why is Ronnie Nunez Jr. an NBA ref?

Their collective bargaining agreement probably makes it hard for them to be fired.


Why was there such a volatile reaction when Van Gundy said he had an insider tell him that the refs were going to be calling Yao Ming a lot tighter, once they were up 2-0 on the Mavs?

Because JVG's statement made it sound like he heard that from a referee. It did NOT come from a referee. JVG clarified that by stating that when he said "NBA official" he meant someone who works for the league office.


Why did the referee's union call for him to be fired, and why did Stern feel it neccessary to fine him something like 100 grand, the most ever given in fines to a coach? Because to suggest that the league is specifically telling the refs to call certain moves on certain players IF TRUE would be a disaster.


Cuban has theorized the same in the past, and received a quarter of that fine, despite being AN OWNER.
No he hasn't. Cuban has called refs incompetent and complained that they are not held accountable for making bad calls. He has never alleged that they were puposefully calling the game a certain way under orders from the NBA office.



NBA has never publicly acknowledged that there is any punishment whatsoever for bad calls

The punishment is apparently to not have your contract renewed. There are officials who used to referee in the NBA but don't anymore.


I'm waiting to hear your excuses as to why it's neccessary to keep such a tight lid on the annual salary of an NBA referee, to the point that literally NOBODY knows, or can even ballpark the salary of an NBA referee.

Again, nobody knows for sure, but the simple explanation is that their collective bargaining agreement specifies that their salary not be disclosed to the public.

I'm not sure why having their salary secret has any more relevance to fixing games than it would to validating the existence of Bigfoot or alien invaders from Neptune.

My boss does not have to tell you my salary even if you ask very nicely. I am not a senior officer of a publicly traded company or a public employee. The fact that you cannot find out my salary does not make it more likely that I am a criminal.

larry
05-24-2006, 10:28 PM
there really isn't a clear cut team that would grab ratings this year. the nba wants lebron in there and they will give him every call untill he makes it. they need another bird vs magic. if they cant get that they will settle for a jordan type domination era. i don't think they have 2 much of preferance out of this year's final 4. they will just keep it fair for once.
pacers vs lakers finals, you thought those games were called fairly? what about the foul call on dale that sent glenn rice to the line in game 6. the game the lakers had us down by 8 and the court baracaded and then we came back and tied the game and grabbed the rebound off a laker miss w/ seconds to go only 2 hear a whistle on dale fouling rice who made the 2 freethrows. that ended the game basically. we were screwed big time. not to mention the ratings for that series sucked and the nba was hyping kobe and shaq. stern said mike, magic, bird, kobe, and shaq were the best 5 in nba history. i am a big nba conspiriacy beleiver. and i hate wrasslin but at least they admit its fake were as the nba denies the games are more fixed then some shady don king fight.

larry
05-24-2006, 10:35 PM
dick bevetta is living in a multi-million dollar mansion thanks to helping the knicks try and win a tittle. no wonder he calls all the big games for stern. i'm not a conspiracy guy on the war, aliens, and all that other paranoid bs, but i will say i am confident several nba games have been fixed in the stern era. that means calls were or were not called and players were paid to under perform. it may not have the desired effect on the outcome, but it increases odds for stern and the nbas choosen victor. thing is many people i know don't like the nba and he has 2 change that thru dress codes and false idols

larry
05-24-2006, 10:41 PM
E.T. aint real but 'Knick Bevetta is so real, he damn near has a glowing finger, hahaha.
NBA=FIXED/FAKE
NFL=REAL/LEGIT
That's why the NFL does so well, any team can win any year. They don't have to create paper champions!!!

larry
05-24-2006, 10:45 PM
I don't believe the NBA directs them but, the other officials follow role when a certian thing is happening. I don't think the NBA is full out rigid, nor do I think any other American "true" sport is. Some Games/matches are, boxing happens all of the time, last years Superbowl was 100% no denying altered on ALL levels for the Steelers. Even ANY DIEHARD Steelers fan would tell you the game was favored to the steelers. That was one of the most altered games in American sports history. I don't have any recent memories of NBA games that will change my mind of the sports like last years superbowl. There is some altering in SOME games not all though.

yeah i guess you have a point it seemed very favored to pitt, but hey it wasnt near as bad as many nba games.

p.s. you are the only living creature living in beatingthenetsville, in

Shade
05-24-2006, 11:36 PM
I'll say Miami and Phoenix. The Suns feature the same up-tempo, exciting offense the Mavs feature, plus they have the 2-time defending MVP.

But, mostly, I'll bet Stern hates Mark Cuban with a passion and never wants him anywhere near the :trophy:.

Miami and Phoenix each take Game 1... :uhoh: ;)

Eindar
05-25-2006, 01:03 AM
Perhaps it is in their collective bargaining agreement that their salaries not be released publicly. That is very common in collective bargaining for a non publicly traded entity like the National Basketbal Association.


Perhaps is such a concrete term. Players salaries aren't released in most cases, but we have those. NFL refs make $5200 per game. What I'm getting at is there are always leaks, with the very strange exception being the NBA referees. Why is that?



There's your proof right there. Any guy with a money clip is a crook. :rolleyes: Never mind that these guys practically LIVE on the road.


There's a difference between a money clip and a roll that should belong to someone in the mafia. Also, debit cards mean nobody MUST have that much cash on them. Finally, all I'm establishing is that they make a very high wage for what they do.




Their collective bargaining agreement probably makes it hard for them to be fired.

Probably is probably my favorite vague term.




Because JVG's statement made it sound like he heard that from a referee. It did NOT come from a referee. JVG clarified that by stating that when he said "NBA official" he meant someone who works for the league office.

Now, did he clarify that before or after Stern threatened him with a lifetime ban from the NBA in addition to the biggest fine in NBA history for a coach?



Because to suggest that the league is specifically telling the refs to call certain moves on certain players IF TRUE would be a disaster.

You're right, it would be. Maybe that's why all the secrecy?



No he hasn't. Cuban has called refs incompetent and complained that they are not held accountable for making bad calls. He has never alleged that they were puposefully calling the game a certain way under orders from the NBA office.

http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/7660123812377656



The punishment is apparently to not have your contract renewed. There are officials who used to referee in the NBA but don't anymore.

Name 3 who were fired.




Again, nobody knows for sure, but the simple explanation is that their collective bargaining agreement specifies that their salary not be disclosed to the public.

And why is that?



I'm not sure why having their salary secret has any more relevance to fixing games than it would to validating the existence of Bigfoot or alien invaders from Neptune.

Ever heard of hush money?



My boss does not have to tell you my salary even if you ask very nicely. I am not a senior officer of a publicly traded company or a public employee. The fact that you cannot find out my salary does not make it more likely that I am a criminal.

You aren't one of the most visible characters in a nationally televised event followed by millions of fans, either.

Unclebuck
05-25-2006, 08:00 AM
There used to be 2 female refs, but one of them was fired after I think 2 seasons. Several refs are "forced" into retirement a little early. A few refs are fired every season.

Slick Pinkham
05-25-2006, 08:40 AM
There used to be 2 female refs, but one of them was fired after I think 2 seasons. Several refs are "forced" into retirement a little early. A few refs are fired every season.

I'm sure they have to be "silenced" to keep the conspiracy going.

They are confined in "area 51"

;)

I still don't see the big deal with knowing salaries or why it means something evil if they are kept secret.

Do we know the salaries of:

Donnie Walsh
David Stern
Russ Granik
The Simons

What is UNUSUAL is that we routinely know the salaries of athletes. If I were a pro athlete, I'd want my union to fight for the right to keep salaries undisclosed. How much more well-liked would Austin Croshere be if we didn't know how much money he was making? It would however make trades and free agency a mysterious process.

Slick Pinkham
05-25-2006, 08:52 AM
http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/7660123812377656


I repeat, in this blog and others,

Cuban calls refs incompetent-- here he calls out Dan Crawford for never calling enough fouls. He also quotes Flip Saunders as saying that there were 33 missed calls in a game. He credits officials for starting to call traveling when post players shuffle their pivot feet (an apparent "point of emphasis" adjustment)

Cuban in no way alleges that the NBA referees were puposefully directed to make calls a certain way in order to directly impact (for Jay) the outcome of a game toward one team, a team favored by the NBA office.

Cuban's crusade is for better officiating, grading officials, making them consistent for crew to crew, and weeding out the bad ones. I don't think that he shares the game-fixing paranoia.

Unclebuck
05-25-2006, 09:02 AM
I don't understand this discussion about knowing the refs salaries. We have a pretty good idea what they make. Every 4 or 5 years when they work out a new collective bargaining agreement between the refs union and the NBA is gets discussed to death.

Someone like Joey Crawford makes about $250,000 per year, plus they get first class plane tickets, hotel, expenses paid for. The rookie refs make around $90K

Slick Pinkham
05-25-2006, 09:15 AM
30 seconds of google searching shows a salary rage for NBA officials from $77,000 and $224,000, depending upon experience.

These figures may be a few years old. Several articles from 2001, 2002, 2003 stated the same figures, so 90-250 seems right for today.

I'm not sure what else they get from bribes, kickbacks, hush money, and private performances by Miami Heat cheerleaders. ;)

bulletproof
05-25-2006, 10:09 AM
So pacertom, you don't think refs are influenced by anything? You don't think the league and its desire for increased ad revenues (profits) has any influence on them whatsoever?

RWB
05-25-2006, 10:49 AM
And this little jewel from the www.benmaller.com site.

For you conspiracy buffs, few in the NBA are closer to Commissioner David Stern than Jerry Colangelo, the Phoenix Suns executive whose son, Bryan, now runs the Raptors. They made the big jump in the lottery along with Charlotte. The big loser was Portland, and who would the NBA want to get back at more than the Trail Blazers because of owner Paul Allen literally bankrupting the franchise and alienating the community. Stern even pulled out of negotiations on the team's dispute with its arena's bond holders. The Trail Blazers fell as far as possible as the team with the poorest record in the league and the most chances to get the top pick.

Slick Pinkham
05-25-2006, 11:11 AM
So pacertom, you don't think refs are influenced by anything? You don't think the league and its desire for increased ad revenues (profits) has any influence on them whatsoever?

I think there are good refs and bad refs, and refs with good days and bad days. I sure some of them get tired of being yelled at and cursed and, being human beings, resent that treatment, and may tend to make a call AGAINST the pouty, whiny player or coach. But as a whole, refs are very thick-skinned. They probably want to do a good job and get a good evaluation and a nice raise so they can add more to the college fund.

You seem to want me to prove that game-fixing by NBA refs DOESN'T exist. It's hard to prove the negative. It's silly to have to prove that refs DON'T cheat, UFOs DON'T visit us from other planets, or Elvis is NOT alive, or that Bigfoot does NOT exist.

You claim that they are NOT HONEST and fair, and they are guided by the NBA office to change the outcomes of games. That is the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. More than comments about secret salary figures and wads of cash seen coming from a ref's pocket.

Show me the disgruntled ex-game-fixer, his ex-wife, his jilted lover who writes the tell-all, his bookmaker who got shafted, or the disgruntled ex NBA front office employee or his ex-spouse. Or tell me why they don't want to cash in and why they keep quiet... wait... I expect that you will say they are conveniently paid off or held in in David Stern's basement.

ChicagoJ
05-25-2006, 11:13 AM
last years Superbowl was 100% no denying altered on ALL levels for the Steelers. Even ANY DIEHARD Steelers fan would tell you the game was favored to the steelers.

Do we have to do this again? :rolleyes:

There were a series of close/ debatable calls. Nothing more, nothing less.


That was one of the most altered games in American sports history.

Altered? :laugh:

Altered would've been if they ruled Ben's scramble was not a touchdown, and then by virtue of review - which was clearly inconclusive - decided to give him the touchdown. Was it controversial that they ruled it to be a touchdown on the field? Yes. Is there any evidence to prove the call was actually wrong? No. And there's no evidence to prove the call was right, either. It was a judgment call that was properly upheld after it was reviewed.

The holding penalty in the fourth quarter would be a lot less controversial had ABC shown a view from the reverse side of the field where the official saw the player being held. All we ever saw on ABC was the OL's back. We never saw his hands so that's clearly inconclusive. Can't call that one "altered." Blame ABC's crappy coverage for creating a controversy on that call, but goodness gracious, even from the camera angles available you see Clark Hagans beat the OL and have a clear path to the QB, and then he gets spun around from behind. Explain how that happens without holding? (Hint: you can't.)

The push off in the end zone may not have been enough to get Chris Hope moving backwards, (the jab step certainly was sufficient to get the defender moving backwards) but it was enough to get the offensive player turned back to the ball (when his momentum from the jab step would have carried him away from the ball and, thus, an incomplete pass). An advantage was gained; therefore pass interference was within the realm of reasonable. Can't call that one "altered." It was "iffy"/ controversial, we've seen less contact called interference and we've seen more contact go unpunished. Its a judgment call.

Besides, the Steelers had to overcome some truly bad officiating against them during the playoffs, like having Troy's interception erroneously overturned. If your arguement is to hold water, then why did it seem like the league was trying so hard to work against the Steelers prior to the SuperBowl? :hmm:

Slick Pinkham
05-25-2006, 11:26 AM
Read the interviews with Don Denkenger (sp?)

He was a good baseball umpire who absolutely blew a call that altered the outcome of a world series. It haunts him. There is not a day where it is not brought up and he feels awful for it. he has endured death threats and even his family members are ridiculed.

His whole career is thrown out and he is associated with one very terrible call. You hear him talk about it and you KNOW that it was a honest mistake.

Mistakes happen. Officiating is error-riddled.

Thank goodness there are some mechanisms to lessen the errors (officials huddling together, replay, etc.).

I bet there have been dishonest refs, just like there are dishonest, doctors, lawyers, priests, ministers, politicians, and sportswriters.

To just write off bad calls as "the fix is on" is too easy a leap for some to make and is way overused.

Putnam
05-25-2006, 11:44 AM
To just write off bad calls as "the fix is on" is too easy a leap for some to make and is way overused.





SUGGESTION: How about a survey to show how Pacers Digest members come down on this? It should be public to reveal who has voted and how.



.

bulletproof
05-25-2006, 12:08 PM
You seem to want me to prove that game-fixing by NBA refs DOESN'T exist. It's hard to prove the negative. It's silly to have to prove that refs DON'T cheat, UFOs DON'T visit us from other planets, or Elvis is NOT alive, or that Bigfoot does NOT exist.

You claim that they are NOT HONEST and fair, and they are guided by the NBA office to change the outcomes of games. That is the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. More than comments about secret salary figures and wads of cash seen coming from a ref's pocket.

I think you have me confused with Eindar. I never said that the NBA is blatantly fixed. I suggested that refs are influenced by the desire of the league to maximize profits through higher ratings and increased ad revenue. And of course, there are personal biases and desires.

JayRedd
05-25-2006, 12:15 PM
He credits officials for starting to call traveling when post players shuffle their pivot feet (an apparent "point of emphasis" adjustment)

Apparently, the refs watching Boris Diaw on the final play of the game last night missed that memo....That ballet routine he pulled off was pretty egregious.

Eindar
05-25-2006, 07:50 PM
I think you have me confused with Eindar. I never said that the NBA is blatantly fixed. I suggested that refs are influenced by the desire of the league to maximize profits through higher ratings and increased ad revenue. And of course, there are personal biases and desires.

More like he's just flat out confused. Like I said earlier, I'm not willing to say that "the league is fixed" or even that the league mandates that certain things happen. What I am saying is that there's too much suspicious activity for me to dismiss it out of hand.

If you want to get the gist of my beliefs, it all comes down to the economic principle of collusion vs. price leadership. I think that the refs and the league office engage in the NBA equivalent of price leadership.