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View Full Version : How much does size matter in todays game (at the 2 guard)



Young
05-22-2006, 09:52 PM
Does size really matter much as far as shooting guards go in today's game?

There are so many teams that have or had small backcourts. Even if they are not starting, they play a small backcourt and they are very effective at it.

Examples:
Recent History:
- 76ers Snow/Iverson
- Kings: Bibby/B.Jackson
- Mavs: Nash/Van Exel
- Rockets: Francis/Mobley
Current:
- Bulls: Hinrich/Gordon (You could include Duhon in here too.)
- Mavs: Terry/Harris
- Suns: Nash/House (I think they play these two together sometimes.)
- Clippers: Cassell/Mobley

Of course there are others but these are the ones off the top of my head.

So in todays NBA game, do you think that size really matters a lot at the 2 when so many other teams play a small 2 guard, even if it's starting or coming off the bench playing meaningful minuates, you will probably find a smaller 2 guard on almost any NBA team.

I think that you have to have the right team of course but I think that it is becoming less and less important in today's game to have a 2 guard with some size. I think it is more important to have one with quickness so he can contain other guards in the league.

Why do I ask this? For one, i'm curious to know what others think and another reason I ask this is because we could end up drafting Quincy Douby, so i'm wondering how important it is to you guys to have a "natural" 2 guard.

PacerMan
05-22-2006, 10:44 PM
Does size really matter much as far as shooting guards go in today's game?

There are so many teams that have or had small backcourts. Even if they are not starting, they play a small backcourt and they are very effective at it.

Examples:
Recent History:
- 76ers Snow/Iverson
- Kings: Bibby/B.Jackson
- Mavs: Nash/Van Exel
- Rockets: Francis/Mobley
Current:
- Bulls: Hinrich/Gordon (You could include Duhon in here too.)
- Mavs: Terry/Harris
- Suns: Nash/House (I think they play these two together sometimes.)
- Clippers: Cassell/Mobley

Of course there are others but these are the ones off the top of my head.

So in todays NBA game, do you think that size really matters a lot at the 2 when so many other teams play a small 2 guard, even if it's starting or coming off the bench playing meaningful minuates, you will probably find a smaller 2 guard on almost any NBA team.

I think that you have to have the right team of course but I think that it is becoming less and less important in today's game to have a 2 guard with some size. I think it is more important to have one with quickness so he can contain other guards in the league.

Why do I ask this? For one, i'm curious to know what others think and another reason I ask this is because we could end up drafting Quincy Douby, so i'm wondering how important it is to you guys to have a "natural" 2 guard.

It's a non factor except against a very few large 2's that post up.

wooolus
05-22-2006, 11:15 PM
Note: None of those team have really good defense

Unclebuck
05-22-2006, 11:22 PM
Size doesn't matter very much. But if you have a small shooting guard, you need a small forward to help offset that. You can't look at the size of your two guard in a vacuum

beast23
05-22-2006, 11:35 PM
I think you have to look at all 5 starters and see how they blend together.

For example, if you have a very weak defender at SG, then you probably need stronger defenders at PG and SF to help compensate. If your SF can't hit anything beyond 15 feet, then you probably need a PG that can hit perimeter shots to complement your SG.

I think 'Buck nailed it the other day when he played up the importance of quickness. If you give me a choice between two players with similar shooting ability, and one is a 6-8 SG of average quickness that can post up and the other is a 6-3 SG that is very quick, I think I'd rather have the quicker player.

I figure you can always switch out defensive assignments with your SF, or provide help in the paint if the opponent tries to post their taller SG against your 6-3 speed king.

But the real reason that I favor quickness is in the ability to penetrate offensively and in the ability to defend the perimeter. There are exceptions, but more often than not quickness is a significant factor.

Skaut_Ech
05-23-2006, 10:36 AM
Along those lines, I thought it was funny how often people would poo-poo on trade ideas because they would say "so and so would get posted up all day long". If you think about it, the Mark Jackson/Charles Barkley rule, pretty much negated a lot of the mismatch posting up.

I think size at the two doesn't really matter. It's all a mindset. Do you play to your competitors's strengths, or yours? I think the two position gives a team it's most latitude of any player on the floor, in terms of what you want to get from that position for your team.

Moses
05-23-2006, 10:56 AM
Note: None of those team have really good defense
Hit the nail on the head right here. Quick guys are always going to be defensive liabilities when it comes to having them play out of position. Snow and Iverson were a great example..anyone with a brain realized that if you posted up Iverson with your SG, they would be screwed. But did anyone do it? No. Why? Because there isn't much defense in the NBA nowadays. The best defensive contest so far in these playoffs have been Detroit and the Cavs and I'm not sure if thats a compliment to the Cavs.

bulldog
05-23-2006, 01:32 PM
Did you see Bonzi Wells (a big 2-guard) just flat-out dominate the Spur's backcourt? Now, Manu isn't particularly small, but he isn't big either and the Kings could score more easily and crashed the offensive glass, and the Spurs couldn't cope. And this is one of the better overall defense/rebounding teams in the NBA.

If you play a small backcourt, at some point in the play-offs you will have match-up problems. Hopefully, you either have a bigger guard on the bench or the positives of your small 2 outweight the negatives (as is the case with Manu).

Chauncey
05-23-2006, 01:59 PM
Examples:
Recent History:
- 76ers Snow/Iverson
- Kings: Bibby/B.Jackson
- Mavs: Nash/Van Exel
- Rockets: Francis/Mobley
Current:
- Bulls: Hinrich/Gordon (You could include Duhon in here too.)
- Mavs: Terry/Harris
- Suns: Nash/House (I think they play these two together sometimes.)
- Clippers: Cassell/Mobley

.

Aside from being "small"...anyone notice anything else these teams and players have in common with the alien being the exception?

Gamble
05-23-2006, 02:05 PM
Its not only that teams are playing less defense its also the NBA pushing
for games that are more entertaining to the casual viewer.

The NBA is not behind a defensive backcourt so size doesn't matter as
much as it use too. Also if you think about the sg postion most teams
opt for scoring rather than defense at that position.

JayRedd
05-23-2006, 02:17 PM
How much does size matter in todays game (at the 2 guard)?

A lot. Even Dwyane Wade a 6'3 is a defensive liability in the post when guys like Rip, Gilbert Arenas, Vince or Paul Pierce get the ball down there. And DWade's a very good defender.

As for your list

- 76ers Snow/Iverson
Snow is a good, tough defender so it allowed their "SG" of Ivy to stay guarding the other team's PG if that was the better matchup. And how's that work out when they were trying to guard Kobe?

- Kings: Bibby/B.Jackson
Usually it was Christie matching up on the other teams SG if there was a dominant one on the other team. Bibby and Bobby didn't play together all that much. Besides, Sacto was pretty terrible defensively overall.


- Mavs: Nash/Van Exel
Don't think I can conceive of a worse defensive backcourt. Maybe exchange Van Exel with Sarunas.

- Rockets: Francis/Mobley
How'd these guys do in the Playoffs?

Current:
- Bulls: Hinrich/Gordon (You could include Duhon in here too.)
Again, how'd these guys do in the Playoffs? (And it really helps that Hinrich is a fantastic defender to counteract Ben's lackthereof)

- Mavs: Terry/Harris
Good combo and Harris plays good D. But this seemed like more of a "gimmicky" type of lineup that Avery came up with to expose a slow, old and injured Spurs team. I imagine we'll see this against the Suns as well though given the likely pace of the game. Not sure these two guys will be able to be on the court at the same time if they see Chauncey/Rip in the Finals though.

- Suns: Nash/House (I think they play these two together sometimes.)
Rarely play together. And the Suns don't really count when talking about a normal NBA team.

- Clippers: Cassell/Mobley
You saw this mostly against PHX to match their smallball/offensive power. But Cassell/Livingston seemed to work better since Shaun plays a helluva on-the-ball D



I really think it helps out a lot to have a 6'5 + SG.

ChicagoJ
05-23-2006, 05:00 PM
The answer to this question is found in another question: what size is Ginoboli?

Chauncey
05-23-2006, 09:05 PM
Aside from being "small"...anyone notice anything else these teams and players have in common with the alien being the exception?

The silence is deafening.

Hicks
05-23-2006, 09:07 PM
The silence is deafening.

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/pg2/2002/1030/photo/a_ring_hi.jpg

pizza guy
05-23-2006, 09:31 PM
"You can't teach size."

:-p

While one-on-one defenders are great, team defense is what counts. If you have a small SG, get a good defensive SF. If you've got a normal SG, get a normal SF. I like the idea of a normal/big SG because if a small, quick SG gets past the perimeter, the 3, 4, and 5 positions are there to rotate and take care of it. Truthfully, SJax has really good size for the 2, IMO - perhaps a better example is Kobe. I don't like Freddie as a 2 because he's too small and doesn't have a consistent shot. I'd take DWade as a small SG in a heartbeat, though.

In a nutshell: if you're small, you better be GOOD. If you're normal/big, you better be GOOD. That's about as simple as it gets.

SycamoreKen
05-23-2006, 11:54 PM
http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/pg2/2002/1030/photo/a_ring_hi.jpg

That was going to be my answer, they have not won anything at all.

Manu is 6'6" I believe. Bonzi is freakish in that it is his weight more than his hieght that made a difference. He and Artest are similar in their large frames for 2 guards.