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View Full Version : Anyone else listening to Mark Montieth on WIBC



Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:26 PM
He is guest hosting and he is being very critical of Rick Carlisle.

I'll add more in a few minutes

Jermaniac
05-16-2006, 09:29 PM
GO MARK, Get at Carlisle

SoupIsGood
05-16-2006, 09:31 PM
We need to hire Adelman

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:31 PM
"The shift from Mike Brown as lead assistant to Kevin O'Neill did not go well".

"Mike Brown was getting so frustrated last season that he likely would have left after last season even if he didn't get
the head coaching job in Cleveland"

MM didn't say what Brown was getting frustrated about

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:33 PM
"Rick Carlisle lost the team in the locker room and on the bench.

"Several people within the organization wanted Rick to discipline Jax, but Rick never did"

Kegboy
05-16-2006, 09:35 PM
MM didn't say what Brown was getting fustrated about

Fixed. ;)

Jermaniac
05-16-2006, 09:37 PM
"Rick Carlisle lost the team in the locker room and on the bench.

"Several people within the organization wanted Rick to discipline Jax, but Rick never did"Yep just like I have always said, he is afraid of Stephen.

Roaming Gnome
05-16-2006, 09:37 PM
Good, maybe Carlisle will get peddled on out of here!

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:38 PM
"MM said many in the organization believe Tinsley did not rehab his injuries as he should. He doesn't take care of his body"


"Rick might have gone too far in practice with Artest, going so far as to belittle him"

Kegboy
05-16-2006, 09:39 PM
Rick was mean to poor wittle Wonnie? :bawl:

Kegboy
05-16-2006, 09:40 PM
Jack has championship experience. :rollout:

[edit] Oops, :bunny: just said that.

SoupIsGood
05-16-2006, 09:40 PM
Man, if MM of all people is saying all this, you gotta think Rick is all but fired at this point.

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:47 PM
Sally: "start with acquiring higher caliber players"



It is insight like that that sets Indianapolis part

Jermaniac
05-16-2006, 09:47 PM
"MM said many in the organization believe Tinsley did not rehab his injuries as he should. He doesn't take care of his body"


"Rick might have gone too far in practice with Artest, going so far as to belittle him"WTF Rick is a *****. No wonder Ron wanted to leave.

Kegboy
05-16-2006, 09:47 PM
Higher caliber players? God, I hate call-in shows.

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:48 PM
WTF Rick is a *****. No wonder Ron wanted to leave.



We don't need your running commentary

Kegboy
05-16-2006, 09:49 PM
Hey, Peck does a good job of disguising his voice.

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:50 PM
These callers are driving me crazy, they talk and talk and talk and say nothing

Jermaniac
05-16-2006, 09:51 PM
We don't need your running commentaryI dont care about what you need.

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:52 PM
I dont care about what you need.


Relax, I was just joking around, I figured we hadn't had a good fight in a couple of weeks

Kegboy
05-16-2006, 09:52 PM
And you two wonder why you were nom'd for best couple.

Jermaniac
05-16-2006, 09:53 PM
My fault then UB, I just dont know when someone is joking or is being serious anymore.

Unclebuck
05-16-2006, 09:53 PM
And you two wonder why you were nom'd for best couple.



We're actually brothers.


Well that is it, shows over.

Maybe someone else listened in and has a different take on what MM was saying

Frank Slade
05-16-2006, 10:00 PM
Sally: "start with acquiring higher caliber players"



It is insight like that that sets Indianapolis part
:laugh: What is it ? the most naive sports minded people, are the only one's able to call into these shows, and spout the most obvious . and tired observations..

I swear always good for a laugh...
Like why can't we ever get a good starter type players in the draft... uh.
:unimpress

McKeyFan
05-16-2006, 11:01 PM
This is pretty disappointing information.

I mean, sure, I had suspicions that he wouldn't discipline Jax. But, you know, maybe he was pressured from above or something. But for MM to just flat out say he wouldn't discipline him, that way lowers my estimation of Carlisle.

Regarding the belittling of Ron, that is also disheartening.

I hope, then, that it's true that he's all but fired.

Hicks
05-16-2006, 11:17 PM
So he was too mean to Ron, but not mean at all to Jack? I can't figure that one out. Either could scare me if they wanted to, but Ron could crush me faster than Jack...

sixthman
05-17-2006, 12:06 AM
So he was too mean to Ron, but not mean at all to Jack? I can't figure that one out. Either could scare me if they wanted to, but Ron could crush me faster than Jack...

I agree that doesn't seem like it would pass the truth test. Maybe he felt Ron was salvageable. Maybe he thought Ron was less crazy? :confused:

The more I hear, the more I fear the off season is going to be less than inspirational.

beast23
05-17-2006, 12:13 AM
Maybe Jackson went into the crowd, but I just think that he's more hype as a tough guy than an actual tough guy.

Sheesh... with Rick's intensity, I'm surprised he didn't b!tch slap Jackson all over the practice court and the locker room. Unless he was too busy belittling Artest.

Doug in CO
05-17-2006, 12:18 AM
Guys - Jackson bagged the morning practice and still started game 6... no idea why RC lets him get away with the crap he does.

Evan_The_Dude
05-17-2006, 12:25 AM
MM is just attempting to give Rick the worst reputation possible in hopes of getting him to step down. I can't say he's doing that bad of a job so far.

Anthem
05-17-2006, 01:17 AM
So he was too mean to Ron, but not mean at all to Jack? I can't figure that one out. Either could scare me if they wanted to, but Ron could crush me faster than Jack...
Except Jack would knife you...

larry
05-17-2006, 02:49 AM
Pacer fans dont cry it is be. In time I'll take away your misery and make it mine. D'Evils

Bball
05-17-2006, 05:43 AM
I have the theory that MM wasn't/isn't soley a Pacers' PR mouthpiece as much as he is loyal to DW... therefore.... I have the question if this is info DW wants out or if it is info MM thinks should be out in order to separate DW from the mess?

Where's my conspiracy hat. We need a conspiracy smiley...

-Bball

Will Galen
05-17-2006, 06:09 AM
I have the theory that MM wasn't/isn't soley a Pacers' PR mouthpiece as much as he is loyal to DW... therefore.... I have the question if this is info DW wants out or if it is info MM thinks should be out in order to separate DW from the mess?

Where's my conspiracy hat. We need a conspiracy smiley...

-Bball

That's close to my take on it. It seems to me the PTB want Carlisle to quit so they don't have to pay him. Maybe Bird will take over for a year and that way the Pacers wouldn't be paying two coachs.

Just an idea, I think the chances of Bird coaching again are slim and none. Bird doesn't want to coach and Bird doesn't strike me as a man that does a lot of things he doesn't want to do.

Why . . . I think Isiah would coach NY's mess before that happens and we all know Isiah is waiting until he gets a viable contender before he does that. (snort)

able
05-17-2006, 06:30 AM
OK 1: I am dissapointed there is no recording of this :D
2: Mark is "his own man" for most part, Slick and Mark did not hold back any punches all season on anybody and towards the end certainly not towards Rick or Jax.
3: Theories aside, can we just face the facts, even we knew he lost the team all over the place, several players have publicly stated not liking (or in Ron's case not wanting) toplay for coach and as I and several others have stated over the year, the los of Mike was devastating, O'Neill was the last one we needed after his debacle in his prior job.

In my eyes this only heightens my respect for JO who has stood behind a coach he promised to stand behind on day 1 while he most likely had different ideas as well, yet he kept doing everything asked from him, perhaps those are some of the things LB meant when he was speaking of how JO had learned a lot.

To me it becomes awfully clear that RC will not coach this team next year, and I'm most interested in the press-release of the "talk" with RC this week, wasn't that supposed to be today?

fwpacerfan
05-17-2006, 08:22 AM
Another theory:

Maybe Montieth has found another job?

Putnam
05-17-2006, 09:03 AM
In my eyes this only heightens my respect for JO who has stood behind a coach he promised to stand behind on day 1 while he most likely had different ideas as well, yet he kept doing everything asked from him


Excellent point!

Anthem
05-17-2006, 09:18 AM
In my eyes this only heightens my respect for JO who has stood behind a coach he promised to stand behind on day 1 while he most likely had different ideas as well, yet he kept doing everything asked from him, perhaps those are some of the things LB meant when he was speaking of how JO had learned a lot.
Man, that's a good point. Jermaine's definitely been the company man. I appreciate it.

Jermaniac
05-17-2006, 11:09 AM
Maybe Jackson went into the crowd, but I just think that he's more hype as a tough guy than an actual tough guy.

Sheesh... with Rick's intensity, I'm surprised he didn't b!tch slap Jackson all over the practice court and the locker room. Unless he was too busy belittling Artest.Jack is as tough as they come in the NBA, I doubt anything is fake about the man. Reading that story about him on ESPN last year made me realize how real he is. Too bad that doesnt translate into smart basketball play.

ChicagoJ
05-17-2006, 11:15 AM
I've come to the realization that the contemporary definition of "real" is not very appealing to me. He can take his "real" gang colors/ bandana to somebody else's lockerroom.

But I'll happily take that guy that "isn't real" and has turned his back on his former gang life.

ChicagoJ
05-17-2006, 11:30 AM
"MM said many in the organization believe Tinsley did not rehab his injuries as he should. He doesn't take care of his body"

That's what I've been waiting to hear. That's a legit reason to trade him (with one caveat, below). The player may not be able to control his injury tendencies, but he can control his approach to rehab.

Again, is this because he just isn't motivated to rush back and play for Rick, or is it solely a personality flaw of Tinsley's?

The answer to this question is the answer for whether Tinsley should be kept or dealt. Unless, of course, the team is going to choose to keep Carlisle over Tinsley regardless. Then there's no point in asking the question and we'll just hope that Tinsley doesn't ever figure out how to stay healthy later on...

bulletproof
05-17-2006, 11:31 AM
I have the question if this is info DW wants out or if it is info MM thinks should be out in order to separate DW from the mess.

How does that separate Donnie from "the mess"? And do you honestly think Donnie hired Bird so he doesn't have to take any flak? He still has to answer to the Simons. Here's something else to stick in your pipe and smoke on for awhile, Donnie had every intention of leaving after the 2002-03 season, especially after the death of his granddaughter (yeah, that's right, real life things happen to these guys as well), but the Simons "made him offer he couldn't refuse," so to speak. That's how much they respect the guy. They were willing to pay two GMs at the same time so Donnie could step back a little and have more time to spend with his family. Hopefully you have employers who think as highly of you. You act as if this was all orchestrated by Donnie so he doesn't have to take responsibility for anything; that he can reap all the benefits if things go well, but have little or no accountability if things don't go well. You really have no clue. But if you want to level criticism at anyone for Donnie's seemingly impervious teflon coating, blame the Simons for respecting the man so much.

Bball
05-17-2006, 11:57 AM
How does that separate Donnie from "the mess"?

The current 'mess' is what I am talking about. And it is a mess...

In this case, I was speculating that the bunny was simply trying to clue people in that this wasn't DW's fault. The implication is that Rick is Bird's man.





And do you honestly think Donnie hired Bird so he doesn't have to take any flak?

No, and I never said that.




He still has to answer to the Simons.

Did I say he didn't?




Here's something else to stick in your pipe and smoke on for awhile, Donnie had every intention of leaving after the 2002-03 season, especially after the death of his granddaughter (yeah, that's right, real life things happen to these guys as well), but the Simons "made him offer he couldn't refuse," so to speak. That's how much they respect the guy. They were willing to pay two GMs at the same time so Donnie could step back a little and have more time to spend with his family

We don't need someone 'stepping back' right now. We need one vision acting in a proactive manner.

We need a lone voice leading and shaping this team. We don't have that and it's clear from top to bottom.




. Hopefully you have employers who think as highly of you. You act as if this was all orchestrated by Donnie so he doesn't have to take responsibility for anything;

That's entirely untrue and if I've said things that gave you the impression that was my point then you've been misreading my words.




that he can reap all the benefits if things go well, but have little or no accountability if things don't go well.

I've never thought that DW worked to put himself in that positon. The local media, followed by a segment of the fans, have put him in that position. For years he has been above criticism. He's the Teflon Don because our media rarely (basically 'never') sees fit to ask tough question or critique DW. IMHO it's because the city nearly lost the Pacers and there's been some unwritten rule amongst the older reporters (many of which have moved on) to not speak ill of the team and especially management. Any problems- management was always part of the solution... only... and never part of the problem.

MM is an example of a reporter that I would classify as being loyal to DW... so loyal in fact that it clouds his reporting (IMHO).





You really have no clue. But if you want to level criticism at anyone for Donnie's seemingly impervious teflon coating, blame the Simons for respecting the man so much.

And you are so blinded by loyalty that you can't see the forest for the trees. You misread what I say because you see it as a personal attack. None of this makes Donnie Walsh a bad guy, in fact he most likely is a great guy. Being accused of being 'loyal to a fault' isn't exactly a character failing... But it is a failing for an executive in charge of personnel for a professional basketball team.

If I don't have a clue, you're not far behind...

-Bball

Hicks
05-17-2006, 12:12 PM
That's what I've been waiting to hear. That's a legit reason to trade him (with one caveat, below). The player may not be able to control his injury tendencies, but he can control his approach to rehab.

Again, is this because he just isn't motivated to rush back and play for Rick, or is it solely a personality flaw of Tinsley's?

The answer to this question is the answer for whether Tinsley should be kept or dealt. Unless, of course, the team is going to choose to keep Carlisle over Tinsley regardless. Then there's no point in asking the question and we'll just hope that Tinsley doesn't ever figure out how to stay healthy later on...

I call BS on that. If a player needs motivation to rehab properly for any coach, he doesn't belong on my team. Inexcusable.

ChicagoJ
05-17-2006, 12:18 PM
Did you hate your boss at Pizza Hut?

If you came down with the flu, were you in any hurry to return to work?

I find it troubling that any NBA player wouldn't take care of thier bodies. But I also find the pattern of broken relationships between Pacers players and the current coaching staff quite troubling. I don't know which situation bothers me more.

I'm just saying I'm willing to throw Rick under the bus and give the players a very short leash under a new coach - allowing them to prove that Rick really was the problem or they should get shipped out too.

bulletproof
05-17-2006, 12:20 PM
We don't need someone 'stepping back' right now. We need one vision acting in a proactive manner.

We need a lone voice leading and shaping this team. We don't have that and it's clear from top to bottom.

That's the thing, he hasn't stepped back. The events of the past two years haven't allowed that. And you don't know what this team does or doesn't have from a management standpoint.

One thing has been abundantly clear to me: I don't know many teams that could have sustained what the Pacers have in the past two years and still remained competitive. The events of 11/19 were catastrophic. But you know, keep ignoring that and continue with your blame game. You seem to be having a lot of fun with it.

Los Angeles
05-17-2006, 12:30 PM
Did you hate your boss at Pizza Hut?

If you came down with the flu, were you in any hurry to return to work?

I find it troubling that any NBA player wouldn't take care of thier bodies. But I also find the pattern of broken relationships between Pacers players and the current coaching staff quite troubling. I don't know which situation bothers me more.

I'm just saying I'm willing to throw Rick under the bus and give the players a very short leash under a new coach - allowing them to prove that Rick really was the problem or they should get shipped out too.
It's very difficult to tell the baby from the bathwater here.

Further, if you pick the wrong one to go first, you lose both of them.

Hicks
05-17-2006, 12:33 PM
Did you hate your boss at Pizza Hut?[

If you came down with the flu, were you in any hurry to return to work?

Well for starters, I quit in late Feb. for the record (didn't need the job anymore).

Secondly, if I could go to work, I went to work. I was either too sick or I wasn't. I did the job as best I could regardless of if my favorite or least-favorite manager was on duty. And believe me I didn't like them all equally by a long shot. I did my job. It didn't matter who it was. And this was only for minimum wage, let along a ****ing 7-figure salary.

Since86
05-17-2006, 12:50 PM
Did you hate your boss at Pizza Hut?

If you came down with the flu, were you in any hurry to return to work?

I find it troubling that any NBA player wouldn't take care of thier bodies. But I also find the pattern of broken relationships between Pacers players and the current coaching staff quite troubling. I don't know which situation bothers me more.

I'm just saying I'm willing to throw Rick under the bus and give the players a very short leash under a new coach - allowing them to prove that Rick really was the problem or they should get shipped out too.


He's not being paid millions of dollars to do his job either. Pizza Hut also isn't a specialized job. (No offense to anyone) Any Joe can come in off the street and fill the position, with little training.

Starting caliber PGs aren't a dime a dozen. If you're saying he purposely didn't rehab, because he didn't like the coach, he should be in breach of contract and should pay back his salary.

He's paid to play a frickin game, that anyone of us would love to do. I can't believe Rick being the coach is being offered up as an excuse for not rehabing properly......

Arcadian
05-17-2006, 12:58 PM
Yeah, not rehabing to get back at your coach is stupid. Your hurting your body not your coach.

Besides Jay aren't you always complaining about how Saras wasn't ready to play? It's the same case here.

Putnam
05-17-2006, 01:17 PM
I'm willing to throw Rick under the bus and give the players a very short leash under a new coach - allowing them to prove that Rick really was the problem or they should get shipped out too.




That isn't fair, but it probably would be effective. I agree that it is the right first step. There has to be a fall guy, and there has to be a fresh start for whoever is left.

Can we start a "Throw Rick Under the Bus" Bandwagon?

ABADays
05-17-2006, 01:40 PM
Makes on sense to me why Jax would get a free ride on anything or why RC would be afraid of him.

Peck
05-17-2006, 01:40 PM
That's the thing, he hasn't stepped back. The events of the past two years haven't allowed that. And you don't know what this team does or doesn't have from a management standpoint.

One thing has been abundantly clear to me: I don't know many teams that could have sustained what the Pacers have in the past two years and still remained competitive. The events of 11/19 were catastrophic. But you know, keep ignoring that and continue with your blame game. You seem to be having a lot of fun with it.


Not to jump in here but I do have to ask you a question & yes I'm being serious & not trying to be an @ss about it.

What can we criticize Donnie Walsh for? Look I've always told you that he is a supreme business man & I have never winked or blinked when I said it. If I were starting a company & wanted someone to run it he would be the person I would hire as well. He is very loyal to players he feels a close association with. He paid Rik Smits money that no one else in the entire NBA would. He paid Reggie money longer than anyone else would. I've only ever heard a handfull of players ever criticize him when they moved on & the loudest one was Detleph Schremph & believe it or not that was over a pool that he had built at his house.

But does that mean that he is beyond criticism at all? Is nothing that has happened his fault?

You state that the team has been devistated since 11/19 & you are right. Does Donnie not have any responisibility in that at all? Are you saying he didn't know or suspect that Ron had issues for at least a season? I've been more than understanding that he was taking a risk with Ron which is why I haven't criticized him much for it, however why can't people who don't share my views on this ask the question. Why can't someone, like say Jay, be critical of him for keeping him on the team when he knew he was a ticking time bomb?

Actually I'm going off of track here, I don't want to debate the merits of any of this. I just want to know when & when we cannot question Donnie Walsh?

bulletproof
05-17-2006, 01:41 PM
That isn't fair, but it probably would be effective. I agree that it is the right first step. There has to be a fall guy, and there has to be a fresh start for whoever is left.

Good lord. How 'bout we start with Ron? You guys remember him, right? The clown that charged into the stands in Detroit and devastated this franchise.

Bball
05-17-2006, 01:42 PM
I'd be fine with throwing Rick under the bus as a start... but a player or two... or three should also follow him to show that Rick isn't entirely going to take the fall for this and set a needed example about what is expected (and tolerated) with any player wearing a Pacer uniform.

Then a clean slate and short leash sounds pretty good. And never again allow some of the things MM has talked about to be tolerated....

-Bball

Bball
05-17-2006, 02:19 PM
That's the thing, he hasn't stepped back. The events of the past two years haven't allowed that. And you don't know what this team does or doesn't have from a management standpoint.

It's not at all clear whether Larry and DW are on the same page. Larry's comments make it crystal clear that he and Rick aren't on the same page.




One thing has been abundantly clear to me: I don't know many teams that could have sustained what the Pacers have in the past two years and still remained competitive. The events of 11/19 were catastrophic. But you know, keep ignoring that and continue with your blame game. You seem to be having a lot of fun with it.

I'm not ignoring it, in fact I was one of the first to opine that things might not be all fun and sunshine once the suspensions ended. It didn't take long to see some problems exposed as last season unfolded. And then to see Artest acting ummmm 'different' during the home opener this current season just wasn't a good feeling.

This team is so mentally weak and undisciplined that it boggles the mind. In one incarnation or another they've quit on two different coaches. And you'd think and hope they could've used the season following 11/19 as a rallying point. A chance to redeem themselves... not prove the nay-sayers correct.

A team that quits on two different coaches begins to raise redflags regarding the core of the team (players and coaching)... or management... or both. Management needs to figure out how to quit compounding mistakes with either keeping a rotten core of players intact or making bad decisions regarding coaches and get someone who fits the talent that they've collected rather than alienating it.

But management needs to be honest in their evaluations... if there is a player or players who simply are always going to tune out coaches, cause chemistry issues, require too much 'effort' and create friction due to their 'needs'... then we can't expect a revolving door of coaches to solve anything.

Maybe that is why Bird is sticking up for Carlisle even tho they appear to have different takes on how this team should be playing? (IOW, Rick might be between a rock and hard place with this bunch and Bird doesn't want to 'reward' the lunatics by allowing them to dictate an ouster of the asylum leader).

In any case... it's management's job to get us past 11/19, beyond this malaise, and back on track again. Artest simply cannot be used continually as a scapegoat, particularly when he's only played as a Pacer for 25 or so games in the last 2 years. And none since before the start of the year.

-Bball

bulletproof
05-17-2006, 02:24 PM
What can we criticize Donnie Walsh for? But does that mean that he is beyond criticism at all? Is nothing that has happened his fault?

You state that the team has been devistated since 11/19 & you are right. Does Donnie not have any responisibility in that at all? Are you saying he didn't know or suspect that Ron had issues for at least a season? I've been more than understanding that he was taking a risk with Ron which is why I haven't criticized him much for it, however why can't people who don't share my views on this ask the question. Why can't someone, like say Jay, be critical of him for keeping him on the team when he knew he was a ticking time bomb?
I've said several times that I think Bender was a mistake (size of contract vs. "potential" - what potential?). I've also said many times that I think the way they handled Ron was a mistake. On one hand, they made concerted efforts to trade him after the ECFs knowing how volatile and dangerous to this team he could be (just how dangerous, no one could have known). On the other hand, they were holding out for some kind of equal value in return. But the most baffling thing to me is that after 11/19, they allowed him to return to this team and gave him another chance to wreak havoc on it, which *surprise* he did. So as far as I'm concerned, how they handled Ron is their most perplexing and egregious error. And yes, I use "their" because for the life of me I can't figure out how both Donne and Larry gave that knucklehead as much rope as they did to hang himself. But even Donnie admitted, "Sometimes you fall in love with talent." But then why did they try to trade him on several occasions? It's confusing.

And there's a difference between questioning a decision and belaboring a point.

Putnam
05-17-2006, 02:29 PM
Good lord. How 'bout we start with Ron? You guys remember him, right? The clown that charged into the stands in Detroit and devastated this franchise.


I'm with you, Bulletproof: I'm not trying to minimize the harm Artest did. Ron is/was the place to start with the repair job. But we can't stop with him, because the problem persisted after he left. The animosity that Artest created lingered long fter he left. But the solution for the team has to go beyond calling Ron bad names.

I support throwing Carlisle under the bus, not because I think it is all his fault or even mostly his fault. I don't presume to know precisely where the fault lies. But I believe that it is the best solution.

An analogy: Say you go to the kitchen for a midnight snack. You reach into the refrigerator and pull out bread, ham, sliced onion, mayonnaise, horseradish and chocolate fudge syrup. You have three options. First, you can put them all together and have a ham sandwich with chocolate fudge. Or you can put everything but the fudge back into the refrigerator, bring out the ice cream, and make yourself a sundae. Or you can put the chocolate back and make a good ham sandwich.

The first of these options is the Pacers as we have them now. There is plenty of talent, but the pieces don't fit together well. The result isn't very satisfactory. The second option is tantamount to moving enough players (Jackson and Tinsley for sure, probably Jasikavisius and Harrison) to recreate a roster than suits Carlisle and won't retain any of the old chemistry problems. But that won't be easy for a team that is over the cap. You have to be building talent at the same time you are eliminating "problems."

So the third option: change the one piece that hinders all the rest from functioning well. It is evident from the media that tension between coaching staff and players has been very strong (much stronger than the occasional tension among players). If Rick Carlisle and Kevin O'Neal go, then that tension is lifted.

(This post doesn't imply that changing Carlisle would be enough by itself. Bball's post above this one makes the case that much more needs to be done. But changing Carlisle is probably the best first step in the right direction.)

ChicagoJ
05-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Good lord. How 'bout we start with Ron? You guys remember him, right? The clown that charged into the stands in Detroit and devastated this franchise.

Somebody traded for him in spite of well-documented baggage.

Somebody gave him a contract extension in spite of continued displays of bizarre/ unacceptable behavior.

Somebody took responsibility for that relationship when his new coach benched him for conduct detrimental to winning against NJ in the fall of 2003 and then said, "I can't deal with this guy anymore, get rid of him."

Somebody was willing to consider trading him but held onto him for too long, setting the stage for 11/19.

Somebody said they were going to pursue whether his contract could be voided but apparently did not.

Somebody could've had a fire sale for him in the summer following his suspension. Instead, the "face of the franchise" appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated with him, setting the stage for a trade demand.

Somebody even could've found a way to pull the trigger on a trade several weeks faster.

There had been numerous opportunities for the Pacers to cut ties with that clown. Somebody needs to take the blame for holding onto him for too long. Sure, UncleBuck thinks it was worth it. But UncleBuck was and is wrong about that. The decision to keep him around any longer than his original contract that was inherited from the Bulls was a collassal mistake and its been compounded many times over.

Frankly, at least one "somebody" should pay for that mistake by losing their job. I don't have enough information to know if that should be Bird or Donnie. Or both. And most of those moves seem very out-of-character for Donnie, but if Donnie was responsible for these decisions then IMO the Simons should fire him. And if its Bird, then either the Simons or Walsh should fire him.

Peck's got a point. I've privately wondered exactly where the line in the sand has been drawn with regards to criticizing Donnie, because IMO he's earned a lot more criticism than he's receiving on this board. Conversely, there have been times during his career where he has not received enough credit from my fellow darksides for the job he's done.

Donnie and Rick are in a very similar position. If I were picking a coach or GM of a team with no built-in baggage, they'd be near (at) the top of my list. There is no question that each of them are among the best, if not the very best, at their positions. But they've been co-contributors to this ****edup mess that is the Indiana Pacers. And IMO its time for heads to roll.

Peck
05-17-2006, 02:35 PM
I've said several times that I think Bender was a mistake (size of contract vs. "potential" - what potential?). I've also said many times that I think the way they handled Ron was a mistake. On one hand, they made concerted efforts to trade him after the ECFs knowing how volatile and dangerous to this team he could be (just how dangerous, no one could have known). On the other hand, they were holding out for some kind of equal value in return. But the most baffling thing to me is that after 11/19, they allowed him to return to this team and gave him another chance to wreak havoc on it, which *surprise* he did. So as far as I'm concerned, how they handled Ron is their most perplexing and egregious error. And yes, I use "their" because for the life of me I can't figure out how both Donne and Larry gave that knucklehead as much rope as they did to hang himself. But even Donnie admitted, "Sometimes you fall in love with talent." But then why did they try to trade him on several occasions? It's confusing.

And there's a difference between questioning a decision and belaboring a point.

I think I understand what you are saying but I want to be sure.

Can you give me an example of both?

ChicagoJ
05-17-2006, 03:07 PM
As for the Tinsley rehab topic, two comments:

(1) Why am I the only one that notices that these players and coaches are human beings, just like the rest of us. Well, maybe not Rimfire... after all, I don't think there are any human NY Knick fans remaining. :flirt: I kid... I kid...

Anyway, I'm obviously not getting through to some of you, so I'll try it one more time on a more universal level: These guys are human. Relationships matter, and they do affect a person's job performance. That doesn't excuse bad behavior (such as not taking rehab seriously) but you have to be careful with how you solve the problem.

I don't care how much money they make, or that their job description says "point guard" and we'd all love to have the same job description. If you can't stand your boss (coach) because you think he's holding you back and won't let you do what you do best (e.g., run a basketball team), its going to wear on you, its going to hamper your job performance, etc.

(2) You can decide this is totally unacceptable and trade away Tinsley and watch him decide to take better care of his body and play 75 games every year for the next five years; while the guy you trade for may get pissed off at Rick and repeats the exact same stunt. Or you can decide this is totally unacceptable and try to figure out the root cause and fix it. Either way, I agree that this behavior is totally unacceptable. Of course, you could also decide this is totally unacceptable, trade away Tinsley, and watch him fade out of the league. I don't think that's very likely, but I know that's the popular opinion.

I keep coming back to the fact that this kid was driving a garbage truck not that long ago. I think its very important for Tinsley to have a strong relationship/ level of trust with his coach.

If the root cause is truly Tinsley, I've got no problem with trading him. Meanwhile, Rick should be on the hot seat for soooooo many other reasons that this conversation is moot. As I've said many times, I'm not privy to all the evidence of the root cause, and the only way I'll really be able to reach a conclusion (in my role as a paying customer) is to see how Tinsley responds to a different coach. Somebody on the inside would have more information and if Tinsley is shipped out then I'll be okay with assuming that the evidence was overwhelming.

bulletproof
05-17-2006, 04:07 PM
I think I understand what you are saying but I want to be sure.

Can you give me an example of both?

If you don't mind, tell me what you think I mean. I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I think it seems fairly obvious.

indygeezer
05-17-2006, 04:29 PM
Jumping in where I don[t belong (hey it's the internet way)...Jay is right in the regard that a micromanaging SOB can completely destroy ANY and all desire to perform. I've got three or 4 of the t-shirts at home. So I can certainly understand that opinion.

Saying that tho, it wasn't RC's micromanaging that made Tinsley go up against Wallace 3 times in a row during a playoff game. It was hardheaded selfish pride and willfulness. That alone is enough for me to want him off the team.

wooolus
05-17-2006, 04:59 PM
or the fact if you remember, last year during the playoffs, he attamped 4 three in a row when and some of them aren't even close nor open.

Bball
05-17-2006, 04:59 PM
If you don't mind, tell me what you think I mean. I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I think it seems fairly obvious.


I get the impression you mean: "Sure there's been some mistakes but everybody makes the mistakes. Let's not keep this rehashing of bad stuff like Bball does. Let's forget these mistakes and talk about the all the good stuff instead."


-Bball

Peck
05-17-2006, 05:11 PM
If you don't mind, tell me what you think I mean. I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I think it seems fairly obvious.


Well I'll try.

Making a point would be like saying "Donnie Walsh is a good G.M. however he is flawed".

Belaboring a point would be like saying "Donnie not only has flaws but I will now list all of his flaws for you".

Is this what you are trying to say?

bulletproof
05-17-2006, 05:18 PM
Making a point would be like saying "Donnie Walsh is a good G.M. however he is flawed".
It doesn't even have to be qualified like that. You make the point, discuss it and move on.


Belaboring a point would be like saying "Donnie not only has flaws but I will now list all of his flaws for you".
Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and...

And I will tell you about them even if they have no real basis or relevance to the conversation we're having. But it's not just flaws. It's stupid suppositions as well.

CableKC
05-17-2006, 05:39 PM
It doesn't even have to be qualified like that. You make the point, discuss it and move on.

Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and...

And I will tell you about them even if they have no real basis or relevance to the conversation we're having. But it's not just flaws. It's stupid suppositions as well.

You watch Scrubs don't you? :laugh:

Peck
05-17-2006, 05:42 PM
It doesn't even have to be qualified like that. You make the point, discuss it and move on.


Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and...

And I will tell you about them even if they have no real basis or relevance to the conversation we're having. But it's not just flaws. It's stupid suppositions as well.

Ok I think I get what you are saying then.

However the bold part is in question because wouldn't that be the readers opionion of the supposition, not the supposition itself? By it's nature isn't a supposition nothing more than a glorafied opinion?

Eindar
05-17-2006, 05:57 PM
I think it's very...convenient that Rick is now "on the hot seat" less than a week after Adelman became available, and Larry Brown is likely looking for work, also. Two weeks ago, the company line, reporters included, was that Rick was here for next year, 100%. Now all the dirt is coming to the surface, just after Adelman is canned. If you buy into the MM "mouthpiece" theory, it seems like DW and PS&E are trying to set the fans against Carlisle so that there will be little negative reaction when/if they fire him to go after Adelman, Brown, or Van Gundy, especially considering this will be the second time Carlisle is fired after doing a supposed "good job" with what he was given.

Young
05-17-2006, 06:31 PM
First off I am not suprised that going from Mike Brown as lead assistant to Kevin O'Neil did not go well. I could have told you that when Mike left and Kevin was hired. I don't want KO and was pissed when he was hired, but not suprised since him and Rick are close friends.

Here is what concerns me from what Mark said.

That Mike Brown would have left even if he didn't get the Cavs job. This may or may not be true though.

That Rick didn't discipline Jackson.

The thing that really has me worried is that Rick lost the team in the locker room and on the bench.

After hereing Mark say some of these things I am a little more open to the idea of Rick being fired.

If Rick is fired, here are my thoughts on possiable replacements.

- Larry Brown
I don't think that LB would be the answer. Players would not get along with him anymore than they do Rick.

- Rick Aldamen
Like LB, RA is not the answer. He is a good coach but we don't have the right team for his Princton Style Offense. I don't like how RA doesn't stress defense enough, IMO. I wouldn't mind him though if we had the right players.

Here are a couple of other names to throw out there:

- Eddie Jordan
Eddie is rumored to be out in Washington. If so, he would make a good hire.

- Mike O'Koaner
Washington assistant. Never has been a head coach but I think he would make a good one.

- Stan Van Gundy
He is a good coach as he proved even before Shaquille O'Neal went to Miami. Although Stan isn't my first choice if Rick is fired.

- Michael Cooper
He proved when he was in the WNBA as the LA Sparks head coach that he can win. Was thrown into the fire as an intern coach in Denver right before George Karl was hired so i'd like to see what Cooper can do when he has a few months to prepare and incorporate his ideas into the team.

-Marc Iavaroni
Suns assistant. I don't know much about him but I like the way the Suns play, maybe he could bring that kind of style to Indiana. I believe that Marc was a strong canidate to get the Blazers head coaching jobing last summer but pulled out of it or he just wasn't offered the position.

I still would like to see Rick finish out his contract as I think that some of the players are the problem as to Rick.

Bball
05-17-2006, 07:33 PM
The events of 11/19 were catastrophic. But you know, keep ignoring that and continue with your blame game. You seem to be having a lot of fun with it.

You know... I keep coming back to this line. Here is what I am reading:
It's not OK for me to begin to blame management for any of this failing BUT it is perfectly OK for you to blame Artest.

I blame management for putting us in this position in the first place... you refuse to blame management for anything, even while admitting management made mistakes. Did those mistakes happen in a vacuum? Are there no consequences for those mistakes? No reactions to them? No cause and effect?

-Bball

Kegboy
05-17-2006, 07:56 PM
If Rick is fired, here are my thoughts on possiable replacements.

- Larry Brown
I don't think that LB would be the answer. Players would not get along with him anymore than they do Rick.
Yep.


- Rick Aldamen
Like LB, RA is not the answer. He is a good coach but we don't have the right team for his Princton Style Offense. I don't like how RA doesn't stress defense enough, IMO. I wouldn't mind him though if we had the right players.
He didn't play Princeton until he got Carrill there. I agree on defense.


- Eddie Jordan
Eddie is rumored to be out in Washington. If so, he would make a good hire.

I disagree. Everytime I watch the Wizards, I come away thinking that either Arenas doesn't listen, or they're badly coached.


- Mike O'Koaner
Washington assistant. Never has been a head coach but I think he would make a good one.
He's a name, and has a pedigree. Still, see my last point.


- Stan Van Gundy
He is a good coach as he proved even before Shaquille O'Neal went to Miami. Although Stan isn't my first choice if Rick is fired.
He's good. He had a great staff in Miami, so I'm a little skeptical, but he's a lot better than his brother in my book. Still, as I've said 5,000 times, I just don't see him taking a job 6 months after pulling a Danny Ainge.


- Michael Cooper
He proved when he was in the WNBA as the LA Sparks head coach that he can win. Was thrown into the fire as an intern coach in Denver right before George Karl was hired so i'd like to see what Cooper can do when he has a few months to prepare and incorporate his ideas into the team.
Ding ding ding ding ding!


-Marc Iavaroni
Suns assistant. I don't know much about him but I like the way the Suns play, maybe he could bring that kind of style to Indiana. I believe that Marc was a strong canidate to get the Blazers head coaching jobing last summer but pulled out of it or he just wasn't offered the position.
I'm surprised this guy isn't on Sac's short list. Maybe he is, and they're just waiting was Phoenix to be done. He'd certainly fit what Larry says he wants style-wise.


I still would like to see Rick finish out his contract as I think that some of the players are the problem as to Rick.
I think this is where we're headed. I'm fine with that.

naptownmenace
05-22-2006, 01:27 PM
The answer to this question is the answer for whether Tinsley should be kept or dealt. Unless, of course, the team is going to choose to keep Carlisle over Tinsley regardless. Then there's no point in asking the question and we'll just hope that Tinsley doesn't ever figure out how to stay healthy later on...


If you guaranteed me that Tinsley would be 100% healthy for the next 3 seasons, playoffs included, I still wouldn't want him on this Pacers team.

Tinsley's maxed out his potential and if the Pacers could trade him to move up in the draft or get a decent bigman prospect, now's the time to do it.


Back on topic... I have no problem with Rick remaining as coach as long as Tinsley and Jack are traded elsewhere. If he gets fired I don't have a problem with that either but sticking with the same players isn't going to work.

Out of all the potential candidates available, the only ones that I would seriously consider worthy would be Michael Cooper and Rick Adelman.

Another former coach to consider would be Terry Porter. I still think he got a raw deal with Milwaukee and he has the mettle and resume that would translate well with the main players on the team.

Unclebuck
05-22-2006, 01:33 PM
Iavaroni also coached under pat Riley for several seasons, so we don't know what style he might actually play. He has seen the two extremes though, that is probably good.

Moses
05-23-2006, 11:07 AM
You know, even if you disregard all the problems Rick is involved in, in terms of chemistry and being liked and so forth..

Do you guys really enjoy watching the way the Pacers play underneath him? After watching nearly every game in this years playoffs, I like watching the way EVERY other team has played more then our style of play. Are you guys not bored of Ricks style? He sped up the offense..but it's still boring to watch. I want to see something exciting..doesn't have to be the Suns offense..but I want to see an offense that either has outstanding chemistry and team-work (IE Pistons) or a team that is at least fun to watch offensively that can throw up 120 on you any given night. If we aren't going to win a championship soon, at least give me some enjoyable basketball. At this point, I'm ready to say we need to trade away Jax, Tinsle, and get rid of Carlisle. Bring in something new..I think the general Pacers fan is tired of watching how our team plays and is tired of all the problems this team has had. If you fire Carlisle and keep the bad guys, we are always going to have some locker-room problems. Keep Carlisle, and our style of basketball is boring and you wont get many ticket sales. Get rid of Carlisle, Jackson, Tinsley, etc..you solve alot of problems and make people who want to buy tickets think, 'Hey, New coach and new players could be a good thing' and they buy the tickets. Making change for the sake of making changes isn't good in most situations..but this is one of those situations that it is. Fire Carlisle, Trade Jackson and Tinsley and AJ (Trade Value) and let's start this team over. Not completely, but I want a new complection or style of play. I want to see JO run the floor in a fast-break offense the same way any athletic PF should.

Note: Most of this is venting and spur of the moment decision making.

Bball
05-23-2006, 11:15 AM
Moses,
Along the same lines as your thoughts... Watching these playoffs has really brought a mixed bag of feelings out for me. One, nostalgia as I watched teams and fans in one collective bit of elecitricity. Two, thinking how far removed from that we really are.

We are in a death spiral AFAIC and in bad need of a transfusion.

-BBall