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Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

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  • #1

    Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

    Let me say up front this post has nothing to do with Jeff Foster, in fact this is the only time I'm going to mention his name. This post also doesn't have anything to do with Pollard or David Harrison as I won't mention their names again either.

    As I was watching the Mavs play the Spurs last night something hit me like a ton of bricks. The NBA has changed. It has changed a lot more than I think any of us realize or care to admit. I've read a lot lately about how the Pacers really need to upgrade their center position. Some have even called it the Pacers biggest weakness. I wonder if any of you who believe that are watching the NBA playoffs.

    Well, if this were 1995, if this were 1999, or even if this were 2002, I might agree that the Pacers need a huge upgrade at the center position. But not in 2006, not at all.

    Watching the Mavs play last night, it became obvious to me that the NBA isn't what it used to be. The Mavs are built perfectly for the 2006 NBA. Do they have great centers, great post players, big strong post defenders?. NO. Don't get me wrong Diop and Dampier are nice serviceable players. But make no mistake those two guys have very little to do with how good they are.

    The NBA has changed, and it has taken me way too long to figure it out. Everything now is dribble penetration and stopping dribble penetration. Speed and quickness in the backcourt his paramount now. Really speed and quickness is paramount not just in the backcourt but at small forward, power forward and even center. The days of traditional post up basketball are over. It is time the Pacers realize that and adapt to the current NBA. And it is time we as fans adjust also.

    When I see Devon Harris go to the basket, I say that is what we need, when I see Jason Terry drive to the hoop I know that is what we need. Watch the Mavs play, that is what the NBA is right now, perhaps the NBA hasn't quite gotten to the Suns style of play, but it is moving in that direction. It is time the Pacers move into this era of the NBA.

    Shaq is fading quickly, we don't have to worry about him anymore. We need to worry about quick penetrating players really from all 5 positions, because that is what the NBA is becoming. Look at the elite 8 teams. Only two teams post up at all really. The Heat and the Spurs. But neither of those teams would be where they are right now without dynamic penetraters. Wade, Parker and Manu.

    If I were building an NBA team I'd model it after the current Mavs, exteme quickness in the backcourt, an extremely versatile small and power forward. And a serviceable center who is available when needed.

    Let me say something here, I'm not moving away from defense being the way to win. Not at all. Defense is as important as ever. But unless you have the proper quickness it doesn't matter how good the "team defense" is. Yes you have to be physical on defense, but the days of big brusing players are over. The frontcourt of the Knicks of the mid 90's in todays NBA would all foul out by the start of the second quarter. Big bruising players don't get it done anymore, the NBA calls things differently, you need quickness.

    Let me say something else right here, shooting is as important as ever. Unless you have adequate shooting at multiple positions the penetration can be stopped rather easily. Postups (what I used to think were the bedrock of every NBA offense) just aren't very important anymore - offensively or defensively.

    OK, what does this mean for the Pacers. Looking at the 1,2, and 3 positions. They need more than one penetrator, more than one shooter, and they need more than one defender. Exactly what type of players would I like the Pacers to get, look at the Mavs. That is what I want, that is what you need in todays NBA. Devon Harris, Jason terry, Marquis Daniels, Josh Howard - all 4 are good defenders, all four can penetrate - those are the types of players we need.

    Who of the Pacers current roster fits this blueprint. I think Granger does at small forward, but the backcourt needs to be entirely revamped. Peja brings the shooting we need, but nothing else. I'm not even sure AJ fits into what I think we need.

    What about J.O. Well I'd rather have Dirk, and I've never even thought about such a thing prior to now. J.O might fit in if used properly. He needs to be used less in straight postups and more as an all around offensive player.

    There is more I want to say about this, but Mother's day activities are calling.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

    I'd be happy if we had a team of 'traditional' players (ie: real center, pg, sg, sf and pf) and let them play their traditional roles/positions on the court... with lots of motion/cutting/screening/passing.

    And I'd be fine with a team that "plays quick but doesn't get in a hurry".

    I'm not sure how far apart we are in these thoughts. Probably not all that far altho we attack it from different angles.

    J.O might fit in if used properly. He needs to be used less in straight postups and more as an all around offensive player.
    Haven't I been saying this for a while now? Welcome to the club

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    • #3
      Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

      Originally posted by Bball
      I'd be happy if we had a team of 'traditional' players (ie: real center, pg, sg, sf and pf) and let them play their traditional roles/positions on the court... with lots of motion/cutting/screening/passing.

      And I'd be fine with a team that "plays quick but doesn't get in a hurry".

      I'm not sure how far apart we are in these thoughts. Probably not all that far altho we attack it from different angles.



      Haven't I been saying this for a while now? Welcome to the club

      -Bball
      I'm slow but not dumb

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

        I agree, but the best way to counter those quick penetrators defensively is with a center who can block shots and takes up the middle. Harrison does that but he is to inconsistent.

        I wish we had a guy like Ginobli or Parker though who could penetrate whenever they willed to do so. The only penetrator this team has is Jamal Tinsley and he was injured all year long.

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        • #5
          Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

          lol We could have Wade,Arenas,AI,Kobe and KG as our line up and that fool Carlisle would still play that halfcourt bull****. If we are going to go with a quick lineup we need a new coach cause Rick I Will Not Change Even If My Life Depended On It Carlisle wont let the team play quick.

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          • #6
            Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

            Quickness is something that this franchise has always lacked. None of the draft picks / FAs were lightning quick. The only quick player that I know that was drafted by the Pacers was Kenny Williams. (He was quick to get into trouble also!)



            Our SG/SF/PG position with Reggie, Sjax, Freddie, Artest, Vern Fleming, Mark Jackson, Workman, Mckey, Jalen Rose, Eddie Johnson, Ricky Pierce, Ferrell, etc etc always lacked quickness. (Freddie is athletic but not quick).

            Dale, Al, AD and Rik were slow also.

            The Pacers made their run in the 1990s with a conventional team with cutting / passing / defense and effort. It was fun to watch.

            Right now we neither are a conventional team nor are we a incredibly athletic and quick team. That is one of the reason we have been sucking quite a bit in addition to all the off court stuff.
            ANDY: I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy winning or get busy losing.

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            • #7
              Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

              I agree but disagree all at the same time.

              Quickness can be overcome by execution & movement. Our problem is we have few players that can exacute a move properly & we have a coach that does not believe in movement.

              BTW, slashing to the basket is not new. Did you miss the Bulls teams of the 90's? Jordan, Pippen & Harper all routinely hit the hole & they very rarely, if ever, played post up basketball.

              In fact the only team that had much success with the style that you have been advocating for the past 4 years was Houston. N.Y., Indiana, Orlando, Chicago, L.A. all used multiple offensive sets & did not go to the isolation basketball that we have seen. Yes, even Orlando did not do this all of the time.

              So, in the backcourt I agree speed & penetration are the key. However you still will need & will always need a big tough interior rebounder & defender in the post. But that player must be agile as well.

              Again, yes I know it's me, but think along the lines of Dale Davis or Ben Wallace. Each of them are strong as Ox's yet each of them were cat like quick for thier size in thier prime.

              If what you say is totally true then J.O. is not only the answer by opening up the offense a little bit but he is also then the most qualified to play center as well once he loses weight.

              However, I still hold firm to my belief that the day of the big man is coming back.


              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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              • #8
                Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                Originally posted by Unclebuck
                -snip-The NBA has changed, and it has taken me way too long to figure it out. Everything now is dribble penetration and stopping dribble penetration. Speed and quickness in the backcourt his paramount now. Really speed and quickness is paramount not just in the backcourt but at small forward, power forward and even center. The days of traditional post up basketball are over. It is time the Pacers realize that and adapt to the current NBA. And it is time we as fans adjust also.
                I wouldn't says post-up basketball is over. There are just fewer and fewer players willing to or able to post up. Tim Duncan is still the best player on the court in that series, and he's pretty good in the paint.

                Let me say something here, I'm not moving away from defense being the way to win. Not at all. Defense is as important as ever. But unless you have the proper quickness it doesn't matter how good the "team defense" is. Yes you have to be physical on defense, but the days of big brusing players are over. The frontcourt of the Knicks of the mid 90's in todays NBA would all foul out by the start of the second quarter. Big bruising players don't get it done anymore, the NBA calls things differently, you need quickness.
                Yes, the officiating in this year's playoffs has been much different. I can't think of any other spring in which Duncan, Shaq, JO, etc. have struggled with foul trouble so much. Tim and JO are young and will adapt to playing in the post without fouling. JO's already figured out he needs to lose 15 pounds to get quicker. Tim's feet are really bothering him and he should also lose some weight to get quicker.

                OK, what does this mean for the Pacers. Looking at the 1,2, and 3 positions. They need more than one penetrator, more than one shooter, and they need more than one defender. Exactly what type of players would I like the Pacers to get, look at the Mavs. That is what I want, that is what you need in todays NBA. Devon Harris, Jason terry, Marquis Daniels, Josh Howard - all 4 are good defenders, all four can penetrate - those are the types of players we need.

                Who of the Pacers current roster fits this blueprint. I think Granger does at small forward, but the backcourt needs to be entirely revamped. Peja brings the shooting we need, but nothing else. I'm not even sure AJ fits into what I think we need.

                What about J.O. Well I'd rather have Dirk, and I've never even thought about such a thing prior to now. J.O might fit in if used properly. He needs to be used less in straight postups and more as an all around offensive player.
                First of all, I utterly disagree about Dirk. Tony Parker did a fine job on Dirk in the fourth quarter last night because Dirk is such a pansy about playing inside. If another team ever attempted to guard JO with a PG, I'd love to see what JO could do to them.

                Secondly, our only player with quickness is so un-skilled at anything other than driving with his right hand that he still can't earn any court time. You don't just need quickness or we'd have a starting backcourt of Travis "Bust" and Fred "Righty" Jones. Skills and fundamentals are making a comeback, along with quickness.

                Third, I certainly do agree we need more quickness at PG and SG. In fact, while I like Granger, I do wonder if he's a quick enough player for your model. Man, Devin Harris has a crossover, doesn't he. We either draft a quick player or a skilled player. Why can't we find a player that has both?


                Originally posted by Moses
                I agree, but the best way to counter those quick penetrators defensively is with a center who can block shots and takes up the middle. Harrison does that but he is to inconsistent.

                I wish we had a guy like Ginobli or Parker though who could penetrate whenever they willed to do so. The only penetrator this team has is Jamal Tinsley and he was injured all year long.
                I completely agree with both points. To keep somebody from penetrating you need two things - quickness at the guard positions and an intimidating presence in the paint.

                And watching Manu relentless and fearlessly attack the basket with both hands, . I think we should offer the Spurs whatever it takes to get him, even if the package includes Granger. I know the Spurs don't want to trade him, blah, blah, blah... Its time to get serious about making some trades to improve the roster.

                Originally posted by Peck
                -snip-
                If what you say is totally true then J.O. is not only the answer by opening up the offense a little bit but he is also then the most qualified to play center as well once he loses weight.
                Not if he's got to defend the post. Or we really need to upgrade our PF (Foster) playing alongside him.

                However, I still hold firm to my belief that the day of the big man is coming back.
                True, true. Difference is, only a few teams will have one but they'll have a big advantage over everyone else. Like the Rockets (Hakeen), Magic (Shaq), Knicks (Ewing) and Spurs (D-Rob) during Jordan's first retirement - the only four teams with a legit post presence were the four most-likely championship contenders during those two seasons. (Yes, I know the who the other ECF team during those two seasons was.)
                Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                And life itself, rushing over me
                Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

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                • #9
                  Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                  If quickness is what you want you will never see it with Donnie in charge.

                  Donnie drafts/trades for big players at their respective positions. If I remember correctly I think Donnie said years back is that you can lose your quickness over time but you can't grow shorter. Or was it you can't teach height? Anyway, this course is set with Donnie at the helm.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                    Originally posted by Bball
                    I'd be happy if we had a team of 'traditional' players (ie: real center, pg, sg, sf and pf) and let them play their traditional roles/positions on the court... with lots of motion/cutting/screening/passing.

                    And I'd be fine with a team that "plays quick but doesn't get in a hurry".

                    I'm not sure how far apart we are in these thoughts. Probably not all that far altho we attack it from different angles.



                    Haven't I been saying this for a while now? Welcome to the club

                    -Bball
                    sorta like Detroit?


                    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                      I believe tha quickness is more important especially for our team. Bodies are so much bigger and faster now there is less spacing, smaller passing lanes and rotations are quicker. Dribble penetration and shooting are musts to open up the floor.
                      "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

                      "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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                      • #12
                        Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                        Originally posted by Tim
                        If quickness is what you want you will never see it with Donnie in charge.

                        Donnie drafts/trades for big players at their respective positions.
                        I don't think Carlisle got the memo.

                        I was waiting to see him play Granger at center.
                        This space for rent.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                          The Pistons should be the model. Length, teamwork and merely adequate quickness will beat the Mavs' athletes. Extreme athleticism takes away from ball movement, teamwork, etc. IMO. The Mavs are only making noise in the playoffs because they finally picked up some decent defenders and a true center to defend the paint....to go along with an awesome offensive team which they have had for years.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                            I agree that we need qiickness in the backcourt, but I am not sure it would matter. 90% of how a team plays and sets up on offense and defense is determined by the coach. If Rick does not loosen the reigns then even if we could get our hands on some really quick players for the 1 and 2 positions it would not matter. Rick has to give up the control.


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                            • #15
                              Re: Pacers biggest need: Is not center - it is quickness

                              Originally posted by indy0731
                              I agree that we ickness in the backcourt, but I am not sure it would matter. 90% of how a team plays and sets up on offense and defense is determined by the coach. If Rick does not loosen the reigns then even if we could get our hands on some really quick players for the 1 and 2 positions it would not matter. Rick has to give up the control.
                              Where is would matter, even if Rick is maintained, is on the defensive end.
                              It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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