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View Full Version : "Should I stay or should I go?"



Shade
05-12-2006, 08:47 PM
Before I start, let me just note that ANY player is tradable for the right deal. I'm basing my analysis off of the potential to fit into this current team.

Jeff Foster - I love Jeff's hustle, but he is not the type of center that we need to play alongside JO. I'd love to have a banger, preferably a veteran presence. I seem to recall someone like that in a Pacers uni last season... :innocent: Jeff's inability to hit wide open 15 footers just sealed the deal in my mind.

Verdict: Go

David Harrison - I'm afraid Hulk's game is going to deteriorate under Carlisle. Rick can't keep yanking him after one foul and expecting him to improve. David also needs to keep his attitude with the refs in check. Bringning him up on a team of players who like to ***** to the refs all the time probably hasn't helped his disposition any. But David has a lot of tools, and if he ever learns to use them correctly, watch out.

Verdict: Stay

Scot Pollard - I like Scot, but he's always going to have back problems. However, for the right money, he's a great glue guy and we could do far worse on the bench in emergency situations.

Verdict: Stay

Jermaine O'Neal - JO may not be a Top 10 player in this league (yet), but his attitude has been good and he shows the effort on the floor most of the time. He has shown the ability to really shine when showcased with a legitimate center.

Verdict: Stay

Austin Croshere - Cro is a good guy, and I wouldn't mind keeping him at a sane price, but he doesn't really fit into the mold of this team if we keep Peja. And I'll pull my hair out if we keep giving him minutes over Danny. But don't underestimate the spark he presents off the bench when he decides to be aggresive and not just chuck threes. He's also a rare veteran presence on a young team.

Verdict: Give or Take

Peja Stojakovic - I like Peja, but I lost a lot of faith in him due to his inability/unwillingness to play in the playoffs. Either he had a negative attidue about playing, was afraid of choking in the playoffs again, or now has knee problems to go with his back problems. His presence at the 3 also hinders Danny's development.

Verdict: Go

Danny Granger - What can you say? An impact player as a rookie, and already our best defender which has shown the ability to be clutch. He has a great attitude to boot.

Verdict: Stay

Stephen Jackson - Erratic shooter who has lapses of effort, plays outside of the offense, and constanly barks at referees and teammates. Need I say more?

Verdict: Go

Fred Jones - I like Freddie. I think some of us underestimate the spark he brings off the bench, and how well he is capable of shooting the ball when his hand isn't injured. His defense is a liability, obvously, and I could live with never seeing him make another pass while committed in the air. But for the right price, we could do a lot worse as a back-up SG.

Verdict: Give or Take

Jamaal Tinsley - When healthy, Tins is the best point guard on this team. But he's never healthy, and his attitude and decision-making come into question often. His shooting at times is just as bad as Foster's. I expect Tins will be back on the roster, because his trade value is virtually nil, but I'm ready to take a stab at acquiring a new starting point.

Verdict: Go

Anthony Johnson - AJ deserves major props for the progress he's made. His offense has come a long way, and his teammates seem to be more comfortable with him running the show. However, he does have a tendency to regress when his starting spot is in question, he's slow as molasses at times, and he's not a great distributor. He can also dominate the ball at times when he shouldn't. Still, we could do much worse in a back-up, and AJ can play 2 positions if needed (though I still feel he's better suited as a 2).

Verdict: Stay

Sarunas Jasikevicius - People tend to forget that Runi was effectively a rookie this season. His season was extended by more than 30 games, and that's a ton for a rookie. He played well to start the season and then hit the wall. Hopefully, his defense isn't really as bad as we saw over the last couple of months. I'm willing to give him more time.

Verdict: Stay

Eddie Gill - Wherever the Lord Eddie goeth, thou shalt follow in His sneaker-steps. :bowdown:

Seriously, though, I would like to have Eddie back, but it's not necessary as the fourth point guard.

Verdict: Give or Take

So, I would like to see a roster sorta like this next season:

C - ???/Harrison/Pollard
PF - JO/Cro?
SF - Danny/???
SG - ???/Freddie?/AJ
PG - ???/AJ/Runi/Gill?

We need a new starting C, starting SG, and starting PG. We'll also need a quality back-up SF and possibly PF/SG depending on what we do with Cro (trade his contract?) and Freddie (let him walk?).

Unclebuck
05-12-2006, 09:05 PM
You lost me when you said Jeff should go and David should stay

Doug in CO
05-12-2006, 09:09 PM
I think depth is a good thing - Peja should stay - and he probably hurt his value with his injury - he should stay and you can have Granger play some 2.

Last time we felt like we had a logjam at a position we traded Al for Jax. Doh!

I think Austin is an extremely valuable asset for a team looking to get under the cap and dump someone we could use at the trade deadline.

Other than that - I agree with you.

Shade
05-12-2006, 09:15 PM
You lost me when you said Jeff should go and David should stay

David is a true center. Jeff is not. We need a true center, and one who has some offensive capabilities, to compliment JO.

It's as simple as that.

Shade
05-12-2006, 09:17 PM
I think depth is a good thing - Peja should stay - and he probably hurt his value with his injury - he should stay and you can have Granger play some 2.

Last time we felt like we had a logjam at a position we traded Al for Jax. Doh!

I think Austin is an extremely valuable asset for a team looking to get under the cap and dump someone we could use at the trade deadline.

Other than that - I agree with you.

True, but I would much rather sign and trade Peja for a new starting SG and get a new SF to back up Danny. Playing Danny out of position to try to make it work doesn't sit well with me. Danny is already good enough to start, and never will if we lock Peja into a long-term deal.

Doug in CO
05-12-2006, 09:20 PM
A sign and trade is easier said than done

Maybe we can sign and trade him for Maggette

purdue101
05-12-2006, 09:42 PM
i pretty much agree with everything except for peja, tinsley, and AJ.

if peja leaves then we traded artest for nothing when we could have had a guy like maggette, who is young, gives you 20 a night, and is on at a great bargain price for the next 4-5 years. ppl keep talking about a sign and trade w/ peja, but we won't get crap back simply b/c he is not restricted. you only see teams getting a lot back via sign and trade when they have the leverage to match the offer (think joe johnson). when the player is unrestricted, like peja is, the other team is usually willing to offer up only a role player as a salary dump (think brad miller for pollard).

as for tinsley.....you're right. he's one of the best PG's when healthy and his contract is fairly cheap for a player with his capabilities. i think his injuries result from lack of conditioning and training in the offseason. if we can get a decent trade on the table for him, then i would consider it. but i wouldn't give him up for nothing. part of me is hoping bird and carlisle really come down hard on him and he comes back strong next year.

AJ is never going to have a trade value as high as it is now. if bird really is intent on a tinsley/sarunas pg rotation, then we might want to cash in on AJ's value after that awesome NJ series.

Robertmto
05-12-2006, 09:45 PM
Keep Hulk and let Foster go?????

wooolus
05-12-2006, 10:31 PM
Hulk makes less money, hulk is younger, hulk has more upside, hulk is a true center, I don't necessarily want Foster to go, but I prefer to keep Hulk rather than him.

Moses
05-12-2006, 10:40 PM
I completely agree with my good friend and Eddie Gill fanatic, Shade.

As to why to let Jeff go and not Hulk..It's really simple actually. This team needs a real center. An offensive threat who can put up 10-15 points consistently and has even a SHRED of offensive game. At this point, Dikembe Mutumbo and Theo Ratliff have more offensive moves than Jeff and that is flat out disgustingly pathetic. The fact of the matter is, when Jeff isn't grabbing 15 boards a game or guarding a smaller center in the league, he's pretty much useless. He provides no shot blocking presence in the paint and a reason why we have some of the worst interior defense in the league to slashing guards. (I realize our wingmen should stop them, but they need to meet a force in the paint besides JO) I would LOVE to keep Jeff as the backup PF and a guy we use when we go small, but he is great trade bait at the moment and his health is only deteriorating.

Hulk is still young and has alot to learn. I don't know if he'll ever pan out under Rick Carlisle but he will be a good center under a coach who isn't afraid to play their rookies and let them learn through mistakes. In my opinion, we need to give Granger and Harrison ALOT more time in the rotation next year to develop them. It's obvious we wont win a championship unless they develop a ton and we get a premier 2 guard.

Overall, Excellent analysis of the team Shade. I agree with every point you made with the exception of Eddie Gill being Stay or Go. Stop trying to please the haters, you know he needs to stay. 12th man award for sportsmanship - Only guy on our team who won an award all season!

beast23
05-13-2006, 12:34 AM
There are several things that I don't agree with.

Foster. This team needs talent, that is true. But we've been down that road before, when we had decent talent and more depth than any team in the league. So, IMO, it would be dumb to get rid of Foster, who is a good presence on the floor and in the locker room... and who is equally productive whether he starts or comes off the bench. We need good attitudes and capable bigs; Jeff can play either 1 or 4 off the bench AS A BACKUP.

Freddie. "His defense is a liability, obvously"? What the heck? Freddie is one of the best perimeter defenders we have. Now, if you want to say that Saras and Tinsley play matador defense, I'll go along with that. But whether we need Freddie next season depends totally on whether we deal Tinsley and Jackson and whether we get a player capable of playing perimeter defensive back in . If we don't get a decent defensive player, then we will need Freddie. If we trade Tinsley and Jax for other assets, like a center, and fill the 2 slot from either Peja or Bender, then we need Freddie as a backup at 2.

Tinsley. I'd trade him and Jackson for a moldy dog biscuit, but I'm kind of hoping that the two of them combined will either bring back a good PG or a serviceable center. If that's not enough, then sacrifice Croshere's contract early in the year rather than waiting for the trade deadline.

Bender and Pollard. I really believe that both players represent cap relief for the Pacers. Either Pollard will be re-signed for very little money, or we will let him go. If the Pacers trade Croshere, I think we will not trade Bender's contract, simply because it will be covered by insurance anyway and it will provide cap relief at season's end to help cover whatever we need to play Peja to retain him.

Jon Theodore
05-13-2006, 12:36 AM
we really do need to ship out AJ while his trade value is high. AJ really won me over this year, but it's best to move him while he has such high value. We could use an AJ/Foster combo to land us a big guy to compliment Jermaine.

Draft a PG, keep the roster as is...trade Tins/AJ/Foster for a solid center (with draft pick possibly) put an extremely short leash on Jack and DH.

Young
05-13-2006, 12:37 AM
You have to get rid of either Jeff or Scot. I like them both but they have trouble staying heatlhy. Maybe we really don't need someone better, we do need a player more durable to start at center.

Also, I would say that Anthony Johnson is give or take. He was great vs New Jersey but we need quickness in the backcourt. He doesn't give us that. And plus his value should be very good, we might be better off getting something good while his value is high. Of course it wouldn't hurt to keep him if we drafted say Kyle Lowery, the Nova point guard.

Putnam
05-13-2006, 08:23 AM
Shade's ideas are all good, but I think the first question has to be Carlisle. Is he going to be the coach next year? And is he going to coach the same way? If yes to both of these questions, then Harrison and Sarunas might as well go. Either of them is better or worse, depending on the system they are in -- and Carlisle's system makes them worse.

I hope Carlisle goes. But my second wish is that -- if he must stay -- he gets 12 players that he can work with.

Moses
05-13-2006, 09:36 AM
I think Pollard would sign for the Vets minimum once his contract is up.

rexnom
05-13-2006, 09:50 AM
I think Pollard would sign for the Vets minimum once his contract is up.

I agree, I think the question is whether he considers himself healthy enough to do so.

beast23
05-13-2006, 11:11 AM
we really do need to ship out AJ while his trade value is high. AJ really won me over this year, but it's best to move him while he has such high value. We could use an AJ/Foster combo to land us a big guy to compliment Jermaine.

Draft a PG, keep the roster as is...trade Tins/AJ/Foster for a solid center (with draft pick possibly) put an extremely short leash on Jack and DH.

I'm gonna pick on your idea a little because I think this is exactly the thing that we absolutely shouldn't do.

I totally agree with you regarding the needs of the team. We need a better big up front for Jermaine. And heaven knows we've suffered this year at PG (and at SG for that matter).

But we have chemistry problems on this team. Even the most blind of fans agree on that. So, you don't dump players that are good influences when they are performing well.

Trading AJ/Foster for a big is not a good idea when we retain guys like Tinsley, Jackson and Harrison.

Out of those three players, I see Harrison as the one that most of us are really hoping pans out. We are hoping that he's the big that we need to pair up with Jermaine. Since Harrison seems to have a few issues of his own, I say you dump the players who provide the worst of influences on him... and I personally believe that's Tinsley and Jackson.

Jumper
05-13-2006, 11:36 AM
So from reading the above.

We trade Foster and Jackson for an interior post presence. Then we trade Tinsley and our first round pick to move up and draft a point guard. Sign and trade Peja for a 2 guard and keep Freddie as the backup.

microwave_oven
05-13-2006, 11:43 AM
You can't sign and trade Peja for anything but a snickers bar (with almonds mind you, but a snickers bar none the less)

Shade
05-13-2006, 11:47 AM
So from reading the above.

We trade Foster and Jackson for an interior post presence. Then we trade Tinsley and our first round pick to move up and draft a point guard. Sign and trade Peja for a 2 guard and keep Freddie as the backup.

If we could actually pull all of that off, I'd be pretty happy.

I wonder what Milwaukee would want for Magloire...

Trader Joe
05-13-2006, 10:55 PM
I think getting rid of Foster is entirely dependent on what we get back. If we can get back a big in a package of Foster and someone else that is more suited to play next to JO then by all means we should do it, if not we could do a lot worse than a healthy Foster as our starting center.

pizza guy
05-13-2006, 11:46 PM
I have to say that Shade's synopsis of the team was pretty good. Since I agree with most of it, I'll just point out a couple things from the thread.

1.) Keep Hulk, trade Foster. Hulk has a future if Carlisle allows it. Jeff, though good at it, will never be more than a fiesty rebounder and a decent post-defender. Hulk has A TON more upside than Jeff, especially considering health, and every team needs that one guy who will jump on the floor for loose balls and fight for the rebound.

2.) Trade Tinsley, trade Jackson. Those two are such headaches. It's been said by a person or two on here, but I'd also give serious consideration to not watching the Pacers next year if these guys are back. Tinsley's health and attitude, Jack's constant griping to refs and inconsistant play.....I just can't take it anymore.

3.) See what you can get for AJ. His trade value will certainly never be better, and the backcourt is a major area of concern for us. A veteran, good-shooting, smart, playoff capable PG is always at the top of someone's list, and AJ had to have raised some eyebrows this post-season. And, if we don't like what we see, oh well, he's a good PG and it doesn't hurt us at all to keep him.

Jermaniac
05-14-2006, 12:08 AM
What is this attitude of Tinsley's you speak of? Do you get to sneek to the locker room and see how Jamaal acts? I still dont know where people get this idea that Jamaal has a bad attitude. Being injury prone doesnt mean you have a bad attitude.

pizza guy
05-14-2006, 11:07 AM
Tinsley's attitude isn't quite the same as Jack's. Tins doesn't whine to the refs like Jack does - he just pouts when being taken out. It's pretty obvious when he's waltzing back to the bench dropping "MF" over and over. Also, it's the Rucker Park attitude he takes on whenever he feels like it and forgets that there are four other guys on his team. It's not necessarily the same, but it's there, and it's bad.

Jermaniac
05-14-2006, 01:02 PM
People think that when they see Tinsley on the bench looking not interested they think he is pouting, he isnt pouting thats how he always looks. Jamaal Tinsley doesnt have a attitude, he is just made out of glass, thats his only problem, if he wasnt hurt he wouldnt ever need to be traded.

aceace
05-14-2006, 01:14 PM
i pretty much agree with everything except for peja, tinsley, and AJ.

if peja leaves then we traded artest for nothing when we could have had a guy like maggette, who is young, gives you 20 a night, and is on at a great bargain price for the next 4-5 years. ppl keep talking about a sign and trade w/ peja, but we won't get crap back simply b/c he is not restricted. you only see teams getting a lot back via sign and trade when they have the leverage to match the offer (think joe johnson). when the player is unrestricted, like peja is, the other team is usually willing to offer up only a role player as a salary dump (think brad miller for pollard).

as for tinsley.....you're right. he's one of the best PG's when healthy and his contract is fairly cheap for a player with his capabilities. i think his injuries result from lack of conditioning and training in the offseason. if we can get a decent trade on the table for him, then i would consider it. but i wouldn't give him up for nothing. part of me is hoping bird and carlisle really come down hard on him and he comes back strong next year.

AJ is never going to have a trade value as high as it is now. if bird really is intent on a tinsley/sarunas pg rotation, then we might want to cash in on AJ's value after that awesome NJ series.Do a little research before you post, we own Pejas bird rights which means we can sign him for 6 years instead of 5. We can match any offer he recieves and keep him. Phx could have done the same with Johnson they just didn't want to fork out that much on a 3rd player. They got Diaw and some draft picks (3). If another team offers him more then want we want to give we can get draft picks and player like Phx did.

Magette has had injuries mostly to the legs/knees trading for him would have been a bad idea. Why would you want to trade AJ? He's going to make about 3 million next year, a bargain for what he brings to the table. Tinsley needs a full time medical staff to play 2 straight games.

Jax is the most boneheaded player we have, when he's on he's pretty good. That happens about every 4-5 games. He took more bad shots then the rest of the team combined. We need to upgrade the 2 and the 5. I would resign Eddie just because he knows the system. Next year (07) Lorbach will join the team and give us some help/depth at the 4 if we decide to let Cro go.

Doug in CO
05-14-2006, 02:16 PM
Do a little research before you post, we own Pejas bird rights which means we can sign him for 6 years instead of 5. We can match any offer he recieves and keep him.

You are partly right

We have no right to match - we can pay him more, but we can't match an offer to keep him (unlike with Freddy)

So if Peja decides he wants to go, he is truly FREE to go

purdue101
05-14-2006, 05:01 PM
Do a little research before you post, we own Pejas bird rights which means we can sign him for 6 years instead of 5. We can match any offer he recieves and keep him. Phx could have done the same with Johnson they just didn't want to fork out that much on a 3rd player. They got Diaw and some draft picks (3). If another team offers him more then want we want to give we can get draft picks and player like Phx did.

Magette has had injuries mostly to the legs/knees trading for him would have been a bad idea. Why would you want to trade AJ? He's going to make about 3 million next year, a bargain for what he brings to the table. Tinsley needs a full time medical staff to play 2 straight games.

Jax is the most boneheaded player we have, when he's on he's pretty good. That happens about every 4-5 games. He took more bad shots then the rest of the team combined. We need to upgrade the 2 and the 5. I would resign Eddie just because he knows the system. Next year (07) Lorbach will join the team and give us some help/depth at the 4 if we decide to let Cro go.

i think you're the one lacking the research. peja can go anywhere he wants as he pleases and we can ultimately do nothing about it. by obtaining his bird rights, we can offer more money over more years, but if he wants to leave, we can't do anything about it. he's unrestricted. if peja wants to leave, bird can't leverage other teams to give up picks, players, etc by threatening to match.

the reasoning behind my thoughts on AJ come from birds press conference. he made it clear that he wants sarunas to play backup PG. it also seemed clear that he hasn't given up on tinsley either. AJ's value is at an all time high after the nets series. if we plan on using tinsley and sarunas at the point, and possibly even drafting a PG, then we should trade him along with jax for an upgrade at the 2.

pizza guy
05-14-2006, 05:07 PM
People think that when they see Tinsley on the bench looking not interested they think he is pouting, he isnt pouting thats how he always looks. Jamaal Tinsley doesnt have a attitude, he is just made out of glass, thats his only problem, if he wasnt hurt he wouldnt ever need to be traded.

Notice I never said, "When Tinsley is on the bench..."

My biggest beef with his attitude is his tendency to think he can street ball against his man and beat him. If he really could beat his man, meh, it'd be alright sometimes. But the dude misses more teardrops than anyone I've ever seen, and continues to try it. He's got the best skill set on the team (for PGs), aside from poor shooting AND his one-up-manship that shows up at least once a game - sometimes for the whole game.

Certainly, the biggest problem is his bad health record. Maybe without that, he'd be more settled into a solid PG role. But, he's just never going to be able to consistently stay healthy.

Tinsley needs to be traded for something...anything...just get rid of him.

Shack80
05-15-2006, 04:26 AM
Frankly I want to see JO, Sjax and Tinsley gone. Jax is a punk , tinsley is broken and JO only plays 100% about 70% of the time, and that is if he does not start sulking over something. We will never win a championship with JO.

Robertmto
05-15-2006, 09:13 AM
Frankly I want to see JO, Sjax and Tinsley gone. Jax is a punk , tinsley is broken and JO only plays 100% about 70% of the time, and that is if he does not start sulking over something. We will never win a championship with JO.

What about Peja?

Shamboubou
05-15-2006, 01:00 PM
Foster- I say keep, he does the work that nobody else wants to do. Winning the rebounding battle in the NBA is very important and he helps us to do that.

Tinsley- Let him go, hurt all the time and even when he is in he dribbles too much instead of moving the ball and drives inside and makes a lot of stupid passes.

Jax- Let him go, the guy is a momentum killer. Seemed like everytime we were coming back in a game he would make a stupid play whether it was taking a stupid shot, trying to isolate, making a stupid pass, or losing the ball off the dribble. He cry's to the ref's all game long over good calls and he's only hot 2 games out of 5 most of the time.

J.O.- He needs to realise that he isn't one of the best players in the NBA and he's not the entire Pacers team. He is a person though that has good and bad. He's pretty good at blocking shots most of the time, but he gets dominated by good players, and if he ever has to put the ball on the floor you might as well just hand the ball over. He either gets stripped or mishandles the ball about every time.

A.J.- I think we need to trade him while he has some value. I dont know that he has many more years left at the level he played this year. I think he would be nice to keep, but I think we could get some young talent in here for him which in the long run would be more beneficial.

Harrison- Seeing that this season was pretty much his rookie year I think he will be a good player. Like said before he needs to control his attitude with the refs and not pick up stupid fouls, but that is something you learn with experience.

Austin- He's either on or he is way off. I think he is way off too much personally I think he's expedible. Let him go and let his money go.

Freddie and Granger- I think both are two young talents Freddie had some injuries this year and Granger did great for a rookie.