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Unclebuck
05-11-2006, 08:55 AM
This is the best news I've heard since the season ended.



http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20060511&Category=SPORTS04&ArtNo=605110428&SectionCat=&Template=printart


Pacers don't plan to move O'Neal

'Jermaine is our guy,' Bird reaffirms, despite his 2nd consecutive injury-plagued season

By Mike Wells
May 11, 2006


Indiana Pacers officials expect their phones to ring throughout the summer with teams calling about forward Jermaine O'Neal.

Call all you want, team president Larry Bird said Wednesday, but O'Neal isn't going anywhere.

"Jermaine's name is going to come up all summer," Bird said during his season-ending news conference at Conseco Fieldhouse. "There's not one time we ever called anybody and said, 'Hey, are you interested in Jermaine O'Neal?' Jermaine O'Neal is the best player on this team. Everybody on this team knows Jermaine is our guy. Are we looking to trade Jermaine? No."

There's been speculation since February that O'Neal's run here could be ending. O'Neal said before Game 6 against New Jersey that he wasn't worried about getting traded, a sentiment he repeated Wednesday.

"I haven't thought about it once," O'Neal said during a phone interview. "I love being here. As far as being traded, I'm only 27 and I'm one of the top 10 players in the league. I'm one of the premier back-to-the-basket players in this league. I'm not concerned because if it ever comes to a point where they want to trade me, I'm 27 and longevity is everything and I haven't reached my peak yet. This trade talk came up since we struggled last season. People want to take shots at you when things aren't going well. But that's fine; my skin is thick."

A year ago, in a similar season-ending forum, Bird put the onus on O'Neal to step up and lead the team to title contention.

O'Neal missed 31 games with groin and ankle injuries and pneumonia, but Bird said he's sticking by O'Neal and plans to build the team around him.

"He's getting better. There's no question about it," Bird said. "He knows the little things he has to do now. (The players) look up to Jermaine. It's two years in a row -- he had the shoulder and then the groin. He's coming. He's getting better. You can't just do it overnight. Trying to lead a team and do all the little things, at times, it gets frustrating. I think that he'll continue to get better."
Bird, however, did take issue with O'Neal saying last week that the Pacers needed a big man to play alongside him.
Bird said the Pacers have three: Jeff Foster, Scot Pollard and David Harrison.

Bird said O'Neal made his comments out of "frustration" last week.

"I sort of felt bad when I heard that for Jeff, Scotty and David," Bird said. "If you have those three guys healthy and playing, that's a pretty powerful unit there. I can see where Jermaine's coming from at times, but I also like the three guys that we have."

O'Neal, who averaged 20.1 points and 9.3 rebounds, will resume his workouts early next month and wants to lower his playing weight from 265 to 250.

"That's where I was two years ago, but when I slim down, I won't be able to play (center) as much," he said. "In order for me to get back to that level (two years ago), I have to really concentrate on my quickness and agility."

Kegboy
05-11-2006, 09:11 AM
:applaud:

McClintic Sphere
05-11-2006, 09:15 AM
Oh, no. We're already in the 'player X has remade his body in the offseason' phase?

Gamble
05-11-2006, 09:16 AM
Hopefully he becomes more explosive around the basket.

Anthem
05-11-2006, 09:16 AM
Glory be.

He's right, though. If he's going to de-bulk (and it's about time), then the Pacers need to not play him at center.

Hicks
05-11-2006, 09:30 AM
That is good news, assuming he follows through with it. I wouldn't be upset if he even went back to 240 and really focused on his quickness. Even when he's bulked up, he still gets pushed around anyway.

naptownmenace
05-11-2006, 09:33 AM
That's the best thing JO could do.

Look at Amare before his injury or Boris Diaw and Shawn Marion this season. Smaller big-men can be very effective, even in the paint, because of their quickness and agility.

Besides, JO's legs and lower frame is so thin that he can't carry that extra weight effectively. Hence, he's had knee, ankle, and this year the groin injury.

Getting lighter and quicker should be priority #1 with his ballhandling as #2.

Unclebuck
05-11-2006, 09:36 AM
OK, I'm sorry, but this whole J.O. can't play center thing is driving me crazy and it has for several seasons now. J.O. says it himself. He wants a legit center so he doesn't have to bang with the big boys. When does he ever bang with the big boys?


On defense J.O with rare exceptions guards the lesser offensive player. Whether that player is bigger or smaller. There are several reasons why he does this - to stay out of foul trouble, to be in better help position......

On offense most teams like to use their quicker big to guard J.O. In fact I love it when a bigger guy guards J.O, because he can usually go right around him.

OK, let me pick a few of the eastern conference playoff teams to make my point.

1) The Cavs. Who guards J.O. I don't believe it is Z, and J.O never guards him unless it is very late in the game. Drew Gooden guards J.O. and Vice versa.

OK. let's say we acquire a legit center. Someone like Jamaal Magloire. (we can't say Shaq because that is not in the realm of possibility) . OK so the Pacers starting two big guys are Magloire and JO. That would not change the matchups at all against the Cavs. OK, let's move on to other teams. The Nets, would Nenad guard J.O if Magloire were on the court - NO

OK let's move to the Pistons. Sheed would guard JO no matter who are center is.

The Heat - Shaq rarely guards J.O. and J.O never guards Shaq, so I don't see how Magloire makes the matchups any easier.

I just don't see how the pacers having a huge physical center helps JO because J.O is not guarding nor is he being guarded by the other teams biggest player.

Having said that, you certainly could make the argument that having a player like Magloire would help the Pacers team overall, J.O needs a physical player playing beside him, but it won't change the players JO guards and the players that guard JO.

I'm just using Magloire as an example

MagicRat
05-11-2006, 09:50 AM
Does it matter who starts off guarding JO? Since Foster isn't a factor on the offensive end, doesn't Jermaine end up dealing with 2 bigs instead of one?

Will the real Brad Miller fans please stand up, please stand up, please stand up?........:stirthepo

Unclebuck
05-11-2006, 10:06 AM
Does it matter who starts off guarding JO? Since Foster isn't a factor on the offensive end, doesn't Jermaine end up dealing with 2 bigs instead of one?

Will the real Brad Miller fans please stand up, please stand up, please stand up?........:stirthepo



OK but that is a different issue. You just want another offensive threat from one of the two big positions. OK, that I can agree with and fully understand. But that is not what JO said in his post season press conference and that his not what everyone on here has been crying about for a few years now.

Will Galen
05-11-2006, 10:16 AM
I'm glad JO is thinking for himself. The Pacers are always wanting players to bulk up, and play out of their natural position. I'm convinced the extra weight on Smits feet shortened his career. I was afraid they were going to ask Danny to bulk up. So it was good news when I heard they were going to try him at shooting guard, because I knew they wouldn't want him to bulk up then.

ChicagoJ
05-11-2006, 10:17 AM
I see JO playing post defense far more than any other Pacer. Except when DD was here.

But you can't call "fronting the post" post defense. Foster does absolutely nothing to reduce (I'd say "mimimalize" but I'm afraid Rimfire would find a way to say "affect" again) the physical beating JO takes night in and night out.

Unclebuck
05-11-2006, 10:24 AM
I see JO playing post defense far more than any other Pacer. Except when DD was here.

But you can't call "fronting the post" post defense. Foster does absolutely nothing to reduce (I'd say "mimimalize" but I'm afraid Rimfire would find a way to say "affect" again) the physical beating JO takes night in and night out.



Jay, didn't you notice how little the Pacers fronted the post this past season, in fact they rarely fronted the post, that is where the loss of Mike Brown really hurt. We can argue about fronting the post another time, but their defense changed when Brown left.

Jay, what do you mean "JO playing post defense" If you mean being ready to come opver and block shots, take charges and help when our guards were beat, then yes J.O played post defense. But if you're talking about J.O defending the better low post player, he rarely did that.

Anthem
05-11-2006, 10:33 AM
I hate fronting the post. Hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it.

Major Cold
05-11-2006, 10:46 AM
OK, I'm sorry, but this whole J.O. can't play center thing is driving me crazy and it has for several seasons now. J.O. says it himself. He wants a legit center so he doesn't have to bang with the big boys. When does he ever bang with the big boys?


On defense J.O with rare exceptions guards the lesser offensive player. Whether that player is bigger or smaller. There are several reasons why he does this - to stay out of foul trouble, to be in better help position......

On offense most teams like to use their quicker big to guard J.O. In fact I love it when a bigger guy guards J.O, because he can usually go right around him.

OK, let me pick a few of the eastern conference playoff teams to make my point.

1) The Cavs. Who guards J.O. I don't believe it is Z, and J.O never guards him unless it is very late in the game. Drew Gooden guards J.O. and Vice versa.

OK. let's say we acquire a legit center. Someone like Jamaal Magloire. (we can't say Shaq because that is not in the realm of possibility) . OK so the Pacers starting two big guys are Magloire and JO. That would not change the matchups at all against the Cavs. OK, let's move on to other teams. The Nets, would Nenad guard J.O if Magloire were on the court - NO

OK let's move to the Pistons. Sheed would guard JO no matter who are center is.

The Heat - Shaq rarely guards J.O. and J.O never guards Shaq, so I don't see how Magloire makes the matchups any easier.

I just don't see how the pacers having a huge physical center helps JO because J.O is not guarding nor is he being guarded by the other teams biggest player.

Having said that, you certainly could make the argument that having a player like Magloire would help the Pacers team overall, J.O needs a physical player playing beside him, but it won't change the players JO guards and the players that guard JO.

I'm just using Magloire as an example

With a center that can block shots, JO will not have to:

Guard his own man
be a help side shot blocker
and grant the fans requests that he average more rebounds.

When he alone moves to block shots that puts him out of position to rebound. Jeff is a perfect bench center who can get you 25 min a game a both big man positions. But lets face it he is not durable enough to play over that. If we had another interior presence then JO could do what he wants....shoot fade away jumpers....

Lets face it no matter who we bring in JO will push the burden of failure on someone else. He has not reached a maturity level to be a team leader. I think he will get there, but until he takes responsibility I can't change me opionon.

ChicagoJ
05-11-2006, 10:46 AM
Well, I never did figure out our interior defense schemes this year, with all the injuries and inconsistent lineups.

I certainly didn't see Foster guarding the post or the other team's best post player.

Maybe that's our problem - nobody was guarding him except when Pollard or Harrison were in the game.

Bball
05-11-2006, 10:54 AM
Maybe JO just wants another 'big' so he can do even less on the court except focus on his scoring.

-Bball

Doug in CO
05-11-2006, 10:59 AM
I wish we played Polly more - not sure if it is his back or RC - or both.

I much prefer Polly to Foster

ChicagoJ
05-11-2006, 11:01 AM
Maybe JO just wants another 'big' so he can do even less on the court except focus on his scoring.

-Bball

Goodness. You really clutch onto small issues tightly, don't you.

He's not playing lazy. Without any help, he's taking a huge beating. Hard to be a team's go-to guy when you're the go-to guy for everything - points, rebounds, interior defense, etc.

You'd like him to play the paint like Kareem, pass like Walton, block shots like Russell, lead a team like Ewing, get laid like Wilt, give as good an interview as Shaq, be as chartiable as Hakeem, and serve his country like Robinson.

Is that enough for you?

:tongue:

Jermaniac
05-11-2006, 11:03 AM
In 2007 yall gonna see it, the MVP candidate is coming back.

Will Galen
05-11-2006, 11:04 AM
Goodness. You really clutch onto small issues tightly, don't you.

He's not playing lazy. Without any help, he's taking a huge beating. Hard to be a team's go-to guy when you're the go-to guy for everything - points, rebounds, interior defense, etc.

You'd like him to play the paint like Kareem, pass like Walton, block shots like Russell, lead a team like Ewing, get laid like Wilt, give as good an interview as Shaq, be as chartiable as Hakeem, and serve his country like Robinson.

Is that enough for you?

:tongue:

You forgot the bit's about God, Mom, and Apple pie.

Bball
05-11-2006, 11:07 AM
"I haven't thought about it once," O'Neal said during a phone interview. "I love being here. As far as being traded, I'm only 27 and I'm one of the top 10 players in the league. I'm one of the premier back-to-the-basket players in this league. I'm not concerned because if it ever comes to a point where they want to trade me, I'm 27 and longevity is everything and I haven't reached my peak yet. This trade talk came up since we struggled last season. People want to take shots at you when things aren't going well. But that's fine; my skin is thick."



Maybe it's just me and maybe I should just shrug it off, but this paragraph doesn't sit well with me.

If his mental game wasn't so lacking there might be a pretty good argument to be made that he in fact has already peaked... but Lord knows there's plenty of room for him to grow mentally and he best be starting.

But more importantly...
I don't think Jermaine O Neal and the word "premier" belongs in the same sentence.

He might be telling where he wants to get to, but he isn't there yet. Someone buy him a mirror. And at 27 the clock is ticking.

-Bball

Bball
05-11-2006, 11:09 AM
Goodness. You really clutch onto small issues tightly, don't you.

He's not playing lazy. Without any help, he's taking a huge beating. Hard to be a team's go-to guy when you're the go-to guy for everything - points, rebounds, interior defense, etc.

You'd like him to play the paint like Kareem, pass like Walton, block shots like Russell, lead a team like Ewing, get laid like Wilt, give as good an interview as Shaq, be as chartiable as Hakeem, and serve his country like Robinson.

Is that enough for you?

:tongue:

I didn't like his self analysis. It rubbed me the wrong way. See the above post.

-Bball

317Kim
05-11-2006, 11:12 AM
A long and lean JO. I can dig it :nod:.

JO's been putting on weight then taking some off. Going from 242 to 265 then taking off some and getting to 250. Very nice.

ChicagoJ
05-11-2006, 11:17 AM
Maybe it's just me and maybe I should just shrug it off, but this paragraph doesn't sit well with me.

If his mental game wasn't so lacking there might be a pretty good argument to be made that he in fact has already peaked... but Lord knows there's plenty of room for him to grow mentally and he best be starting.

But more importantly...
I don't think Jermaine O Neal and the word "premier" belongs in the same sentence.

He might be telling where he wants to get to, but he isn't there yet. Someone buy him a mirror. And at 27 the clock is ticking.

-Bball

You're working hard to garner up those "most argumentative" votes, aren't you?

Have you completely forgotten JO's 2003-04 season, where he was the best player in the Eastern conference for the second year in a row and placed high in the MVP race.

Did he peak then? Only if injuries ultimately prevent him from getting back there. And JO's got a legit complaint about the physical pounding he's had to absorb since Brad Miller's departure. Say what you want about Brad's late season breakdowns, but I'd rather have Brad on the Pacers, breaking down, if it keeps JO healthy for an entire season.

I believe that if TPTB actually surround JO with players that compliment him, instead of take away from his game, that we'll see him return to MVP candidate levels.

JO is a top-ten player in the league, and its good that he's got confidence in himself.

Dear God, bball, you're making me look like a :sunshine:er.

Maybe you're trying to lock up Darksider and Argumentative in one fell swoop.

Bball
05-11-2006, 11:23 AM
JO is a top-ten player in the league, and its good that he's got confidence in himself.

Top ten player in the league? I don't think so. Top ten salary, yeah I believe he is. Top ten at his position... debatable. Certainly not recently IMHO but I'll buy the injury excuse for that for a little bit.


Dear God, bball, you're making me look like a :sunshine:er.

Maybe you're trying to lock up Darksider and Argumentative in one fell swoop.

Vote early and vote often! :cool2:

-Bball

bmac
05-11-2006, 11:29 AM
That is good news, assuming he follows through with it. I wouldn't be upset if he even went back to 240 and really focused on his quickness. Even when he's bulked up, he still gets pushed around anyway.

He gets pushed around because he doesn't have that lower leg strength to help him get dug in. I could care less how much upper body muscle a player has, if you don't have that leg strength you are not going to "push" other post players around.

As soon as I started reading this thread, I thought of watching JO in the playoffs against Brian Grant a couple of years ago. Grant was nowhere near the player he once was, but he was still having his way w/JO in the paint. JO is quicker, more athletic and more refined offensively, but when we ask him to match up with true "bangers" down low, the P's are asking to much.

I don't consider Cliff Robinson a real "banger", but he sure made JO look like a finesse player against NJ in the playoffs. We need to cater to JO's strengths instead of attempting to morph him into a post-set style of center.

Do you guys realize how good JO would be in Phoenix? He is a perfect fit for that style of offense. Rick is a great coach,I think he is certainly one of the top 5 in the league but if we really are serious about keeping JO, our offense needs to be structured to get the most out of our "franchise" player, ie O'Neal.

Thats my two bits. I've been reading all this stuff here at PD and haven't posted much, so sorry if this post went on a tangent. I'm scratching my head as much as anyone after this piece of crap season, as to what TPTB should do to make us competitive again.

BillS
05-11-2006, 11:30 AM
I think Jay has made the point I was going to make - whatever type of offense JO starts with, he ends up being crushed by bodies as part of the "collapse in the middle" defensive strategy that was used successfully against us all season. The "let 'em play" philosophy means it is brutally physical down there. A full-size center who is a legit offensive and defensive threat would draw some of the collapse, and if JO takes even just a third less punishment next year he's better off.

Will Galen
05-11-2006, 11:32 AM
A long and lean JO. I can dig it :nod:.

JO's been putting on weight then taking some off. Going from 240 to 265 then taking off some and getting to 150. Very nice.

I50? And you think thats nice? Maybe for a hat rack or someone a foot shorter.

(giggle, giggle, snort)

Doug
05-11-2006, 11:35 AM
I like this for a couple of reasons. I think JO is more effective when he uses his quickness instead of banging - and I think the extra poundage was hindering his quickness a little.

The other reason is I think that Rick will be less likely to play JO at center if he's 15 pounds less. And I think JO is *much* more effective paired with a "true" center.

diamonddave00
05-11-2006, 11:55 AM
Personally I'm glad to hear Jermaine wants to lost 15-20 pounds this summer ( hell I'd like to do that too). He's 28 the start of next season , his game is not a true power game never was never will be, losing the weight will improve his quickness and as pointed out hopefully his ability to stay healthy.

I think Larry Bird alluded to his choice of who'd he'd like to bring in as a center here . During the interview he mentioned only Al Harrington (I know he's not a center) and Nazr Mohammad when he talked about this summer's free agent crop.

Mohammad fits the center position type player Jermaine has asked for. He's a free agent with the Spurs ( lets think what Pacers is from San Antonio?) could Larry be thinking of a sign and trade which sends Jeff Foster home???

McKeyFan
05-11-2006, 11:59 AM
Maybe it's just me and maybe I should just shrug it off, but this paragraph doesn't sit well with me.

If his mental game wasn't so lacking there might be a pretty good argument to be made that he in fact has already peaked... but Lord knows there's plenty of room for him to grow mentally and he best be starting.

But more importantly...
I don't think Jermaine O Neal and the word "premier" belongs in the same sentence.

He might be telling where he wants to get to, but he isn't there yet. Someone buy him a mirror. And at 27 the clock is ticking.

-Bball

The bigger problem with these quotes by JO are what it tells us about him as a person, as a savvy human being.

I just don't see Tim Duncan or Garnett making these kinds of comments. Maybe Shaq, but he's kind of an anomaly.

Point being, even if you are top ten, even if you are premiere, you don't say it yourself. You let others do that and you stay reserved in making comments like that about yourself.

This isn't just good PR advice, its mature, savvy human behavior, of which JO seems to be a bit lacking.

The same mentality shows up on court, which is precisely why his is NOT premiere yet.

Shade
05-11-2006, 12:01 PM
This is good news from a basketball standpoint. I just hope JO doesn't damage his health yo-yoing around like this. He doesn't really have any fat to lose, so he's going to be burning 15 pounds of muscle.

Roy Munson
05-11-2006, 12:22 PM
"I haven't thought about it once," O'Neal said during a phone interview. "I love being here. As far as being traded, I'm only 27 and I'm one of the top 10 players in the league. I'm one of the premier back-to-the-basket players in this league. I'm not concerned because if it ever comes to a point where they want to trade me, I'm 27 and longevity is everything and I haven't reached my peak yet. This trade talk came up since we struggled last season. People want to take shots at you when things aren't going well. But that's fine; my skin is thick."



This is why I can no longer stand JO. The guy is delusional. If he's so good, then why did Krstic so badly outplay him in the playoffs? If JO is a top 10 player (he's not even close), then Krstic is a top 9 player....and that's just silly.

Just because he SAYS he is great, and most Indiana fans SAY he is great, it doesn't make him great. And playing great in 20% of his games doesn't make him a great player either.

JO ought to try a little humility instead of coming across like a cocky clown.

blanket
05-11-2006, 12:45 PM
I expect Pollard to sign elsewhere or perhaps retire, so if JO's slimming down with an eye toward playing center less, we really need to come up with a trade or FA signing for a legit veteran center to fill that void. I don't see a C rotation of Foster and Harrison doing it. At all.

Slick Pinkham
05-11-2006, 01:11 PM
There is something called an "all NBA team" where the best 5 players, second best 5 players, 3rd best 5 players, etc. are chosen.

You will find that by no objective opinion is Jermaine O'Neal a top 10 player.

edit: He did get 2nd team once-- wow.

Suaveness
05-11-2006, 01:14 PM
There is something called an "all NBA team" where the best 5 players, second best 5 players, 3rd best 5 players, etc. are chosen.

You will find that by no objective opinion is Jermaine O'Neal a top 10 player, now or at any point in the past.

That's by position, however, it truly isn't QUITE accurate.

But Jermaine isn't a top 10 player right now. Not from this season's performance.

Slick Pinkham
05-11-2006, 01:29 PM
Here are 19 players who are better then Jermaine.

Quibble with a few, but I'd like to see anyone tell me which 10 players they would take off, with a straight face, to put Jermaine in the top 10:

C: Shaq, Ming, Amare, Ben Wallace
PF: Duncan, Brand, Garnett, Nowitsky
SF: LeBron, Wade, Anthony, McGrady
SG: Kobe, Pierce, Ray Allen
PG: Nash, Billups, Arenas, Iverson

Isaac
05-11-2006, 01:35 PM
After the 03-04 season, you'd be crazy not to list JO as top 10 in the league. He was widely considered in the same league as TD and KG, and was 3rd in MVP voting that season.

JO has had a tough couple of years, but 2 seasons ago, he was not only a top 10 player, but arguably a top 3 player.

owl
05-11-2006, 01:37 PM
How about we either develope(Harrison) or draft Williams(my strong preference) a center who can take some of the heat off JO and actually rebound like Foster, block shots at least as well as Harrison, and score, something none of the current 3 Pacers centers do.



owl

Doug in CO
05-11-2006, 01:38 PM
Reggie is a superstar!!!!

sorry - some sort of weird flashback

Roy Munson
05-11-2006, 01:40 PM
he was not only a top 10 player, but arguably a top 3 player.


VERY arguably. Especially when you throw in names like Shaq, Garnett, Kobe, Nowitski, Duncan, McGrady, Iverson.

vapacersfan
05-11-2006, 01:44 PM
VERY arguably. Especially when you throw in names like Shaq, Garnett, Kobe, Nowitski, Duncan, McGrady, Iverson.

I'm as sick of JO having two bad seasons as the next guy, and he still has a lot of maturing to do, esp. mentally, but he was most def. a top 3 that season.

I dont have the numbers on hand, but he was number 2 or 3 in MVP votes that year. You put the right guys around him, he can do damage. He just cant carry a team by himself, which is why I dont consider him a true "superstar". At least not yet........

J_2_Da_IzzO
05-11-2006, 02:11 PM
Top ten player in the league? I don't think so. Top ten salary, yeah I believe he is. Top ten at his position... debatable. Certainly not recently IMHO but I'll buy the injury excuse for that for a little bit.

To say him being a top 10 PF is debatable either shows a big lack of basketball knowledge or pure hatred towards Jermaine.

Only PF I think is better then him is Duncan. I used to think KG but he just didnt seem bothered at all with the way his teams season was going and I would rather a leader speak out then lay low.

You can add strong arguements for Nowitzky and Brand but I think if JO had the players Nowitzky has round him Dallas would be just as good if not better. And Brand has only been excelling this season so to early to add him into the mix.

JO is trying to adjust for the best of the team. The offseason last year he worked on his shooting and when Peja came he obviously worked on passing out the post. Now he realizes that he needs to lose weight and I believe he will do it. If this is a player that just cares about himself and is lazy then I want someone to show me a player that is fully commited to there teams cause.

Since86
05-11-2006, 02:52 PM
To say him being a top 10 PF is debatable either shows a big lack of basketball knowledge or pure hatred towards Jermaine.

You need to reread his post. He didn't say he wasn't a top 10 PF, he said he wasn't a top 10 PLAYER, which he's not.

Anthem
05-11-2006, 03:29 PM
You need to reread his post. He didn't say he wasn't a top 10 PF, he said he wasn't a top 10 PLAYER, which he's not.
Looks like YOU need to re-read BBall's post. He says and I quote: "Top ten at his position... debatable."

Shade
05-11-2006, 03:33 PM
I like this for a couple of reasons. I think JO is more effective when he uses his quickness instead of banging - and I think the extra poundage was hindering his quickness a little.

The other reason is I think that Rick will be less likely to play JO at center if he's 15 pounds less. And I think JO is *much* more effective paired with a "true" center.

Too bad TPTB don't seem to share your sentiments.

Since86
05-11-2006, 03:36 PM
Looks like YOU need to re-read BBall's post. He says and I quote: "Top ten at his position... debatable."

Just reading the first and last sentence of a paragraph always got me in trouble in high school too.

:blush:

BoomBaby31
05-11-2006, 03:39 PM
I expect Pollard to sign elsewhere or perhaps retire, so if JO's slimming down with an eye toward playing center less, we really need to come up with a trade or FA signing for a legit veteran center to fill that void. I don't see a C rotation of Foster and Harrison doing it. At all.

Maybe JO knows of a trade or has a "feeling" thats we are going to be getting a big man soon. Foster and Harrison rotation is not going to cut it. JO could probably lose 15lbs in 2 weeks being as big as he is. I'm 5'11 220 and always drop my "winter gain" of 17lbs in exactly 2 1/2 weeks.

Jermaniac
05-11-2006, 06:22 PM
Top ten player in the league? I don't think so. Top ten salary, yeah I believe he is. Top ten at his position... debatable. Certainly not recently IMHO but I'll buy the injury excuse for that for a little bit.


-Bball
You name me 10 PF's better then Jermaine, and I will eat a piece of dog **** and post a video of it all over the internet.

JO is a top 3-4 PF EASY.

pizza guy
05-11-2006, 08:18 PM
Wow, I didn't actually think it would happen. Y'all have no idea how excited I am that JO is going to drop 15 lbs and play at his natural weight and position again! The dude is an absolute freak when he is making quick decision and quick moves. He's got the athletic ability that is so hard to stop when he's using it properly, that it can make him a top-10. He may not be right now, but I honestly believe he can be.

I agree 100% with his request for a better/different big man as well. JO doesn't play C half as well as PF, and the team needs a good C. Foster and Pollard, as hard working as they are, are no offensive threats; and Hulk isn't exactly lightin' it up yet - though I do like his potential. Nazr would be a wonderful pick up if we can get him. I'd send Foster back home in a heartbeat for Nazr, Jeff plays better in SA anyways.

JO realized at the end of this season that when he makes quick moves, he's very hard to stop. I'm pretty sure he made some comments to that notion. I think he (and TPTB) also recognized that two years ago he added bulk...and subtracted games played. That's no coincidence, and they've figured it out.

JO slimming back down is great news, I can't wait to see him rock the NBA again like he did the 61-win season.

Slick Pinkham
05-11-2006, 11:07 PM
You name me 10 PF's better then Jermaine, and I will eat a piece of dog **** and post a video of it all over the internet.

Since you din't say ACTIVE players, I'll try...

Hall-of-famers:
1. Kevin McHale
2. Connie Hawkins
3. Wes Unseld
4. Elvin Hayes
5. Dan Issel

soon to be HOF:
6. Karl Malone

active:
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Elton Brand
10. Dirk Nowitsky

Jermaniac
05-11-2006, 11:08 PM
JO is better then Dirk and Brand. And I ment active players sorry didnt put that.

pizza guy
05-11-2006, 11:48 PM
I'd be willing to accept better than Brand, but Dirk is a freak. Can JO post you up AND drain threes all night? Of course, JO's defense is better - shot blocking and rebounding. Neither one of them are exceptional passers, though not terrible. In a one-on-one match-up, I just don't think JO could handle Dirk.

Of course, it's not one-on-one, but the team that matters. So who's a better teammate? Obviously, Dirk has the better team, so a point for him. We know JO can't carry this team solely on his shoulders, and Dirk seemingly has for Dallas - though his supporting cast is much better.

So, eh, I like JO as much as the next guy, but better than Dirk? Only if Dirk is having a bad shooting night - and that doesn't happen often.

Anthem
05-12-2006, 12:23 AM
I'd be willing to accept better than Brand, but Dirk is a freak. Can JO post you up AND drain threes all night?
I haven't seen many Mavs games this year, but in years past Dirk's post game was never much to speak of. Did something change?

And I agree that THIS YEAR's JO wasn't better than THIS YEAR's Brand, but if he drops 15 pounds and gets to play next to a center, I'm betting he has a great year next year.

GO!!!!!
05-12-2006, 12:29 AM
I'm over losing and if Jerm has to lose 15 pounds = what 6 Kilo's to be a superstar and average 24-12 then I'll take it...

Jumper
05-12-2006, 01:16 AM
OK so let me set the facts straight as I see them...

JO this year, sucked, not worth the money.

JO, last year was great,...when healthy.

JO 2 years ago, people were saying he was the best Oneal, enough said, you bring this guy back and I do some kinky sH*W. He was easily a top 2 player that year. Pacer fan's have a short memory, as do most sport fans, so bring it Jermaine, we are waiting....

Roy Munson
05-12-2006, 01:42 AM
JO is better then Dirk and Brand. And I ment active players sorry didnt put that.

That is an absolutly ridiculous statement.

Slick Pinkham
05-12-2006, 09:04 AM
JO is better then Dirk and Brand. And I ment active players sorry didnt put that.

:spitout:

:rotflmao:

JO in the playoffs this year, 7.5 rebounds per game. JO can give you 35 and 15, but he is more likely to give you 18 and 5.

Dirk is way more likely to give you 25 and 9 that you can count on every night.

PS I don't want him traded, unless it's for Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitsky.

Since that is so extremely unlikely, I want him to get better, stop shooting fadeaways, stop whining, and become a leader.

bmac
05-12-2006, 11:16 AM
active:
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Elton Brand
10. Dirk Nowitsky


Don't forget Dwight Howard.

bmac
05-12-2006, 11:17 AM
active:
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Elton Brand
10. Dirk Nowitsky


Don't forget Dwight Howard. He's already better than JO and I don't think he's even 21 yet.

Doug in CO
05-12-2006, 11:30 AM
what position is Chris Bosh? He is really a PF... so add him to the list.

jcouts
05-12-2006, 11:30 AM
I have one strong issue above all other things with David Harrison being our center of the future:

Much like Kevin Willis, Harrison has very short arms for someone of his size.
Length in the NBA has almost always won over height. Even though Harrison is a 7 footer, his vertical reach is probably less than someone like Tayshaun.

With that being said, I don't think he's ever going to be the shot blocking presence that we need from a center.

ChicagoJ
05-12-2006, 11:40 AM
JO will be the shot blocker, playing the weak side. David will play post defense on the strong side.

I don't see a glaring need for David to be a great shot blocker. I think he'll be an "opportunity" shot blocker - just ask Richard Jefferson about that regular season block.

ChicagoJ
05-12-2006, 11:45 AM
Here are 19 players who are better then Jermaine.

Quibble with a few, but I'd like to see anyone tell me which 10 players they would take off, with a straight face, to put Jermaine in the top 10:

C: Shaq, Ming, Amare, Ben Wallace
PF: Duncan, Brand, Garnett, Nowitsky
SF: LeBron, Wade, Anthony, McGrady
SG: Kobe, Pierce, Ray Allen
PG: Nash, Billups, Arenas, Iverson

McGrady - are you thinking of the McGrady from 2-3 years ago? If so, which JO are you comparing him to? The one who's struggled with injuries or the one who was a top player in the NBA a couple years ago? You can't have it both ways.

I'd rank JO ahead of Ming, Ben, Brand (vastly overrated on this board), Dirk, Carmello, Pierce, Allen, Arenas, Billups. That puts JO as borderline top-ten, with Shaq and Iverson in decline. I'd still include McGrady as top-ten but like JO, he's going to have to get healthy again.

Just my :twocents:

Slick Pinkham
05-12-2006, 11:54 AM
McGrady - are you thinking of the McGrady from 2-3 years ago? If so, which JO are you comparing him to? The one who's struggled with injuries or the one who was a top player in the NBA a couple years ago? You can't have it both ways.


They both were top players a few years ago and both have struggled with injuries.

When both are healthy, I'd take TMac.

TMac's back issues may be more a problem going forward, though, than JO's groin/shoulder/knee/whining/leadership problems

J_2_Da_IzzO
05-12-2006, 11:55 AM
:spitout:

:rotflmao:

JO in the playoffs this year, 7.5 rebounds per game. JO can give you 35 and 15, but he is more likely to give you 18 and 5.

Dirk is way more likely to give you 25 and 9 that you can count on every night.

PS I don't want him traded, unless it's for Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitsky.

Since that is so extremely unlikely, I want him to get better, stop shooting fadeaways, stop whining, and become a leader.

Your basing that on just the playoffs where JO was in foul trouble for half the games.

Your basing the numbers on the playoffs where I could just as easily say:

Bonzi Wells is likely to give you 23 and 12.

Since when is Dirk more likely to get more rebounds then JO when we know JO is easily a better rebounder. The things that are most peoples reasons for not liking JO would not be resolved if Dirk was at the Pacers.

(1) You dont like how JO occasionally boxes out and apparently doesnt do well on boards. Well if Dirk was here I think you might see him boxing out 2-3 times a game.

(2) As a player who would you rather try laying around/on. Dirk or JO? JO can block, Dirk cant.

Only thing Dirk is better then JO at is scoring. But JO is a better scorer then Duncan but doesnt mean hes better.

ChicagoJ
05-12-2006, 11:59 AM
They both were top players a few years ago and both have struggled with injuries.

When both are healthy, I'd take TMac.

TMac's back issues may be more a problem going forward, though, than JO's groin/shoulder/knee/whining/leadership problems

If I'm just looking at the most recent season, I'm not sure McGrady (or JO) makes my top-twenty. I don't see how you can include McGrady but cast out JO?

If I'm saying, "who are the top ten players in the league - assuming everyone in the league is healthy?" Then both JO and McGrady are on that list.

Slick Pinkham
05-12-2006, 12:16 PM
Only thing Dirk is better then JO at is scoring.

Let's break down some categories and see who has the advantage:

Outside shooting: Dirk
mid-range shooting: Dirk
around the basket shooting: Dirk
shooting off the dribble: Dirk
creating his own shot: Dirk
shot selection: Dirk
finding an open teammate: Dirk
staying out of foul trouble: Dirk
actually playing well when your team needs you: Dirk


blocking shots: Jermaine
one-on-one defense: Jermaine
dunking the ball very impressively: Jermaine
help defense: Jermaine
posing after dunks and blocks: Jermaine


Maybe I'm missing a few things. If so help me out.

ChicagoJ
05-12-2006, 12:53 PM
around the basket shooting: Dirk


No.

J_2_Da_IzzO
05-12-2006, 02:24 PM
Let's break down some categories and see who has the advantage:

Outside shooting: Dirk
mid-range shooting: Dirk
around the basket shooting: Dirk
shooting off the dribble: Dirk
creating his own shot: Dirk
shot selection: Dirk
finding an open teammate: Dirk
staying out of foul trouble: Dirk
actually playing well when your team needs you: Dirk


blocking shots: Jermaine
one-on-one defense: Jermaine
dunking the ball very impressively: Jermaine
help defense: Jermaine
posing after dunks and blocks: Jermaine


Maybe I'm missing a few things. If so help me out.

I'll do my own. Mine will be a bit more fair then yours tho. Nice try.

Outside Shooting: Dirk
Mid Range Shooting: Dirk
Around The Basket Shooting: Jermaine
Back To Basket: Jermaine
Creating His Own Shot: Jermaine
Shot Selection: ------ (Last season this would have been Dirk but this year JO improved in his shot selection so evens)
Passing: ------ (But next season I guarantee JO will be the better passer)
Blocking: Jermaine
Rebounds: Jermaine
Help Defense: Jermaine

Comparing them in fields like foul trouble is stupid because Dirk is soft. I would much rather see my PF try and block or intimidate a shooter then let him glide past just to avoid getting your second or third foul.

Since86
05-12-2006, 02:51 PM
Creating His Own Shot: Jermaine


That thought is just nutty.

Jo doesn't "create" much at all. A fall away jumper is the easiest shot to get over a defender, and is usually used as a last resort of a good shooter.

Creating your own shot involves some type of skill set of taking some dribbles to set your defender in a position to get the shot you want, hence the create part of the phrase.

JO can get the shot he wants off, whenever he wants, but then again anyone can shoot a fade. Doubt its as accurate, but it's still the easiest shot to release.

Bball
05-12-2006, 03:48 PM
JO will be the shot blocker, playing the weak side. David will play post defense on the strong side.

I don't see a glaring need for David to be a great shot blocker. I think he'll be an "opportunity" shot blocker - just ask Richard Jefferson about that regular season block.

Shot blocking is nice and makes the fans "Ooo" and "Ahhh", but when did it become such an important aspect to the Pacers?

-Bball

J_2_Da_IzzO
05-12-2006, 05:04 PM
Shot blocking is nice and makes the fans "Ooo" and "Ahhh", but when did it become such an important aspect to the Pacers?

-Bball

Its an important aspect for every team.

J_2_Da_IzzO
05-12-2006, 05:07 PM
That thought is just nutty.

Jo doesn't "create" much at all. A fall away jumper is the easiest shot to get over a defender, and is usually used as a last resort of a good shooter.

Creating your own shot involves some type of skill set of taking some dribbles to set your defender in a position to get the shot you want, hence the create part of the phrase.

JO can get the shot he wants off, whenever he wants, but then again anyone can shoot a fade. Doubt its as accurate, but it's still the easiest shot to release.

Compared to Dirk, JO does create his shots. Dirk will usually stand beyond the 3 point arc or around the 15 foot mark and shoot. JO with his back to the basket will have to pull off some sort of move to get past the defender or stop him from blocking a shot.

Eg. When JO is fed inside back in the days when we had a 'dump it on JO' offense he had to create his own shot because that was the offense. If he couldnt get it up there wasnt really a back up option.

Since86
05-12-2006, 05:21 PM
Compared to Dirk, JO does create his shots. Dirk will usually stand beyond the 3 point arc or around the 15 foot mark and shoot. JO with his back to the basket will have to pull off some sort of move to get past the defender or stop him from blocking a shot.

Eg. When JO is fed inside back in the days when we had a 'dump it on JO' offense he had to create his own shot because that was the offense. If he couldnt get it up there wasnt really a back up option.

:laugh:

Dirk a catch and shoot player?

Wow. Can't respond to that.

Bball
05-12-2006, 06:45 PM
Its an important aspect for every team.

If your defense has to rely on shot-blocking IMHO your defense has problems.

I think shot blocking is overrated as far as a measurement of defense. ...But it does play well on ESPN Sportscenter. That's not to take away from a good shot blocker but all this talk about it makes me wonder if we're not getting carried away with it.

It seems to be one of those things where we're valuing athleticism over fundamentals.

...Or I could be wrong...

-Bball

Jermaniac
05-12-2006, 07:14 PM
If your defense has to rely on shot-blocking IMHO your defense has problems.

I think shot blocking is overrated as far as a measurement of defense. ...But it does play well on ESPN Sportscenter. That's not to take away from a good shot blocker but all this talk about it makes me wonder if we're not getting carried away with it.

It seems to be one of those things where we're valuing athleticism over fundamentals.

...Or I could be wrong...

-BballIf Jermaine couldnt block shots, you would make an argument that blocks are one of the most important aspects of the game.

J_2_Da_IzzO
05-12-2006, 07:19 PM
If your defense has to rely on shot-blocking IMHO your defense has problems.

I think shot blocking is overrated as far as a measurement of defense. ...But it does play well on ESPN Sportscenter. That's not to take away from a good shot blocker but all this talk about it makes me wonder if we're not getting carried away with it.

It seems to be one of those things where we're valuing athleticism over fundamentals.

...Or I could be wrong...

-Bball

We have seen many times over the past year that when JO leaves a game the opponents take advantage aand penetrate inside more often then when JO is in the game. Being a good shot blocker also intimidates the opponents and they will occasionally settle for jumpshots instead of attacking the rim.

This is a vital part to defense imo. Look at the Pistons for example. The best defensive team in the NBA and they have 3 players that can block shots regurlarly in Ben and Rasheed Wallace and Prince. They also have players that can steal the ball and thats what makes them so good defensively because opponents get intimidated by them.

We have one shot blocker. Thats the problem. When Artest was with us we had someone that could read what players are going to do and steal it away. Now we dont so we really need to add to our defense this off season.

Bball
05-12-2006, 07:53 PM
I'm one of those curmudgeons who think you play defense with your feet and so blocks in and of themselves don't float my boat all that much.

My point in all this was to wonder if we are overvaluing shotblocking and neglecting some other issues along the way. Why is there so much discussion and worry about having shotblockers inside?

Shotblocking is nice but shouldn't it come farther down the list of priorities? Am I alone in this?



-Bball

Unclebuck
05-12-2006, 09:22 PM
I'm one of those curmudgeons who think you play defense with your feet and so blocks in and of themselves don't float my boat all that much.

My point in all this was to wonder if we are overvaluing shotblocking and neglecting some other issues along the way. Why is there so much discussion and worry about having shotblockers inside?

Shotblocking is nice but shouldn't it come farther down the list of priorities? Am I alone in this?



-Bball

I agree with you. But it is nice to have someone who can block shots inside. A shotblocker can have a real impact on the opponents offense.

However there are more important things than blokcing shots or getting steals.

Among those things more important than blocking shots or getting steals. Not in any particular order

- Deflections
- Following the defensive game plan
- Helping out
- Helping and recovering
- Trusting your teammates to help on your man when you help on his
- Quickness
- Basketball IQ
- Quick hands
- Quick feet
- Good defensive instincts
- Nose for the ball
- Blocking out

ChicagoJ
05-12-2006, 09:51 PM
That thought is just nutty.

Jo doesn't "create" much at all. A fall away jumper is the easiest shot to get over a defender, and is usually used as a last resort of a good shooter.

Creating your own shot involves some type of skill set of taking some dribbles to set your defender in a position to get the shot you want, hence the create part of the phrase.

JO can get the shot he wants off, whenever he wants, but then again anyone can shoot a fade. Doubt its as accurate, but it's still the easiest shot to release.

That's a fine definition for a wing player. But JO doesn't play on the wing, nor does anybody want him to.

Aside,

I'm utterly tired of reading the complaints about JO shooting fadeaways. That was probably a legit complaint about Al Harrington. I only see JO shooting fadeaways when he's double teamed (in other words, when Foster's on the court) and the off-the-ball movement is stagnant so there's no one to pass to. In those cases, JO often has no choice to shoot a fadeaway. But that's a by-product of game plan, offensive design, etc. I don't believe for a second that JO *wants* to be forced to shoot fadeaways and I believe he usually only goes to the fadeaway as a last resort.

Back to the point, JO can create his own shot as well as any other post player, especially from the left block where he is absolutely devastating with a drop step move and power move across the lane.

He's a post player, but so many of you define "create his own shot" as if he were on the wing, facing the basket, looking to put the ball on the floor and drive.

:rolleyes:

ssmall
05-12-2006, 10:10 PM
I agree with you. But it is nice to have someone who can block shots inside. A shotblocker can have a real impact on the opponents offense.

However there are more important things than blokcing shots or getting steals.

Among those things more important than blocking shots or getting steals. Not in any particular order

- Deflections
- Following the defensive game plan
- Helping out
- Helping and recovering
- Trusting your teammates to help on your man when you help on his
- Quickness
- Basketball IQ
- Quick hands
- Quick feet
- Good defensive instincts
- Nose for the ball
- Blocking out
Im not sure if i should quote this but its an ideal player setup for me. I know you cant be perfect. If i can choose what to give to a player id give the qualities you mentioned, and in most cases that comes over shot blocking or offensive rebounds which people tend to value a lot (not satying theyr stupid but in my opinion its a wrong aproach). One of the biggest values id consider are following the defensive game plan and helping and recovering.

Robertmto
05-12-2006, 10:13 PM
I'd rank JO ahead of Ming, Ben, Brand (vastly overrated on this board), Dirk, Carmello, Pierce, Allen, Arenas, Billups.

I've got a couple of things for this one. How is JO better than the man who has been Defensive player of the year 4 times in the last five years? Even if he did only deserve three of them. Are you telling me you'd honestly rather have JO over Ben Wallace?

Chauncey Billups should have been MVP this year. He was teh best player on the best team. That equals MVP to me. He averaged 19 points, 8 assists, and 3 rebounds in the regular season. He's averaging 20 points, 7 assists and 3 rebounds in the playoffs. Jo averaged 20 points, 9 rebounds, and 2.5 assists in the regular season. He averaged 21 points, 7.5 rebounds, and 2 assists in the postseason. Pretty close right? UNTIL you mention the fact that Billups led his team to the semi-finals and is breezing into the finals. Also he has the on court leadership presence.

Lastly Arenas. He was fourth in the league in scoring averaging 30 a game. He is one of the few PG's in the league that can take over a game by himself. And as of right now he is the leading scorer in the playoffs!!! JO barely showed up in the playoffs.

ChicagoJ
05-12-2006, 10:31 PM
JO wasn't anywhere near 100% in the playoffs because of the groin tear and he had no elevation.

Ben's a one-dimensional wonder. But JO's a fine defensive player and far superior to Ben defensively. EDIT: :blush: offensively. I'll take JO every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Billups is iffy, because he's so clutch. I'll give you that its debateable.

Gilbert - I can't make up my mind about him. But I'll take the post player.

Robertmto
05-12-2006, 10:56 PM
Ben's a one-dimensional wonder. But JO's a fine defensive player and far superior to Ben defensively.

I'm hoping thats a typo. Did u just say that??

ChicagoJ
05-12-2006, 11:12 PM
Oops.

:blush:

Robertmto
05-13-2006, 02:06 AM
Whew!!! I was bout to say...

Downtown Threat
05-13-2006, 07:11 AM
JO is better then Dirk and Brand. And I ment active players sorry didnt put that.
Now you really need to take those rose coloured glasses off.