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View Full Version : Is it time for one GM?



McKeyFan
05-10-2006, 09:31 PM
Recent discussions have made me wonder if much of our problem is that we have Donnie and larry--two GMs who, instead of complimenting each other, are keeping each other from acting decisively.

A few examples:

1. Bird likes Saras but Rick overrides him. Is that because Donnie sides with Rick?

2. Bird had misgivings about JO a couple of years ago. Did Donnie keep him from trading JO?

3. Bird "fell in love with talent" regarding Artest. But did Donnie keep Bird from building around Artest instead of JO? Would Donnie have sent Artest to the woodshed sooner?

Regarding #3, I'm not arguing that a decision by Bird to building around Ron instead of JO would have been better, I'm saying that the inability of management to be decisive in either direction (Go entirely with Artest, or get rid of him) has hurt our franchise.

My current opinion is that Bird is not really in charge. I think Donnie knows the numbers and the law and has the experience and confidence. He was the spokesman during the great crisis surrounding Ron's departure. So I wonder if Donnie gives Bird just enough authority to make our top brass a two-headed, indecisive monster.

ChicagoJ
05-10-2006, 09:41 PM
Yes.

And I wonder if his name should be spelled K-i-k-i?

bulletproof
05-10-2006, 09:47 PM
1. Bird likes Saras but Rick overrides him. Is that because Donnie sides with Rick?
No. Donnie is pretty hands off when it comes to coaching.


2. Bird had misgivings about JO a couple of years ago. Did Donnie keep him from trading JO?
No.


3. Bird "fell in love with talent" regarding Artest. But did Donnie keep Bird from building around Artest instead of JO? Would Donnie have sent Artest to the woodshed sooner?
No. Neither wanted to build around Ron. They were both part of the effort to try and move Ron for Peja after the ECFs (twice!). They were both on the same page in offering Ron as part of a deal for McGrady.


So I wonder if Donnie gives Bird just enough authority to make our top brass a two-headed, indecisive monster.
No.

Will Galen
05-10-2006, 11:20 PM
I'm with BulletProof.

Bball
05-10-2006, 11:48 PM
I don't necessarily agree with the road McKey Fan took to get to his theory, but I agree with the general premise.

There needs to be one voice, one vision.... and that voice needs the power to make something happen.

Other GM's need to know they have the right person on the phone... (there's nothing like talking to a client, making your best pitch, and then finding out you wasted it on a peon who has no real decision making/purse string power).

That voice needs ownership's backing.

Players need to know that when the GM requires something of them they have nowhere to run. Whatever the GM threatened them with he can walk down the hall and just do it... and doesn't have to 'ask' permission or run it thru a committee.

-Bball

McKeyFan
05-11-2006, 12:03 PM
Players need to know that when the GM requires something of them they have nowhere to run. Whatever the GM threatened them with he can walk down the hall and just do it... and doesn't have to 'ask' permission or run it thru a committee.

-Bball Like playing Mom off Dad and vice versa. So is Donnie the mommy or the daddy?

grace
05-11-2006, 12:18 PM
It's always been time for one GM. Even if they'd hired someone I like and/or trust I'd still say it's a bad idea having two people more or less doing one job.

CompACE
05-11-2006, 12:21 PM
I guess we'll have to wait one more year - Donnie Walsh is set to retire in a year and after that (barring any crazy personnel changes) bird will be the new gm.

bulletproof
05-11-2006, 12:25 PM
It's always been time for one GM. Even if they'd hired someone I like and/or trust I'd still say it's a bad idea having two people more or less doing one job.

In every profession, there are instances of two or more people sharing the same vision with great success.

ChicagoJ
05-11-2006, 12:27 PM
So what?

For the Pacers, is there any evidence that Bird and DW share the same vision?

They may have the same goal (or maybe not), but I think the suspicion from fans that they don't have the same vision of how to acheive that goal is a legit concern.

Doug in CO
05-11-2006, 12:28 PM
In every profession, there are instances of two or more people sharing the same vision with great success.

Let me ask you point blank - do you know if one of them (Donnie who covets young players who are locked up with longer contracts) favored a trade for Maggette and one of them (Bird who loves white guys ;) ) disagreed over where to send Ron? Seems to me that even with his injury, DW would have taken Maggette. His kind of guy.

And your alluding to the fact that it was a mistake on more than one occassion makes me think there was a difference in opinion with Larry and DW.

bulletproof
05-11-2006, 12:45 PM
Let me ask you point blank - do you know if one of them (Donnie who covets young players who are locked up with longer contracts) favored a trade for Maggette and one of them (Bird who loves white guys ;) ) disagreed over where to send Ron? Seems to me that even with his injury, DW would have taken Maggette. His kind of guy.

And your alluding to the fact that it was a mistake on more than one occassion makes me think there was a difference in opinion with Larry and DW.

I really don't know. I got the sense that Donnie was orchestrating Ron's trade, so I'm pretty sure if he really wanted Maggette, it would have happened. Of course the argument could be made that he did everything to accomodate Bird's wishes, although that seems highly unlikely. I imagine that it was something they both agreed on. They've had their eye on Peja as far back as the summer after the ECFs when they made two attempts to wrest him from the Kings.

Bball
05-11-2006, 01:18 PM
Like playing Mom off Dad and vice versa. So is Donnie the mommy or the daddy?


Analogies... Hmmmmm

You mean like DW pushing the cart down the cereal aisle of the grocery store and Bird riding in the child seat pointing to all the different cereals saying "I want that one, and that one, and not that yucky one, and that one 'cuz it has a toy in it!!"

And Walsh saying "If I let you get the Saras Sugar Flakes then you can't have the Dale Davis Pops!"

-Bball

bulletproof
05-11-2006, 01:29 PM
That's pretty funny.

MagicRat
05-11-2006, 02:01 PM
There needs to be one voice, one vision....

One Voice. One Vision. One Goal.

I think we have next season's ad campaign......:woot2:

RWB
05-11-2006, 02:05 PM
Let me ask you point blank - do you know if one of them (Donnie who covets young players who are locked up with longer contracts) favored a trade for Maggette and one of them (Bird who loves white guys ;) ) disagreed over where to send Ron? Seems to me that even with his injury, DW would have taken Maggette. His kind of guy.

And your alluding to the fact that it was a mistake on more than one occassion makes me think there was a difference in opinion with Larry and DW.

Doug OH, I think it was more the screw in the foot possibility swayed that decision.

RWB
05-11-2006, 02:08 PM
One Voice. One Vision. One Goal.

I think we have next season's ad campaign......:woot2:


One Vision
Hey!
One man, one goal, one mission
One heart, one soul, just one solution
One flash, of light, yeah one God one vision
One flesh one bone, one true religion
One voice, one hope, one real decision
Wowowowowowo gimmie one vision, yeah

No wrong, no right
I'm gonna tell you there's no black and no white
No blood, no stain
All we need is one world wide vision

One flesh one bone, one true religion
One race, one hope, one real decision
Wowowowowo oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah

I had a dream, when I was young
A dream of sweet illusion
A glimpse of hope and unity
And visions of one sweet union
But a cold wind blows
And a dark rain falls
And in my heart it shows
Look what they've done to my dream

One Vision
So give me your hands
Give me your hearts
I'm ready
There's only one direction
One world, one nation
Yeah one vision

No hate, no fight
Just excitation
All through the night
It's a celebration
Wowowowowowo yeah

One flesh one bone, one true religion
One voice, one hope, one real decision

Gimmie one night
Gimmie one hope
Just gimmie
One man, one man
One bar, one night
One day, hey hey
Just gimmie gimmie gimmie gimmie
Fried chicken

MagicRat
05-11-2006, 02:11 PM
And a theme song!...........:woot:

bulletproof
05-11-2006, 02:17 PM
And a theme song!...........:woot:

How about "One Love."

Did I ask too much?
More than a lot.
You gave me nothing,
Now it's all I've got
We're one
But we're not the same
Well we
Hurt each other
Then we do it again
You say
Pacers Basketball is a temple
Pacers Basketball is the higher law
You ask me to enter
But then You make me crawl
And I can't be holding on
To what You got
When all You've got is hurt

Bball
05-11-2006, 02:19 PM
GnR's "Patience" is the theme song...

-Bball

RWB
05-11-2006, 02:21 PM
GnR's "Patience" is the theme song...

-Bball

I'll grant you many of the PAcers have the same attitude as GnR's lead singer. :blush:

Bball
05-11-2006, 02:28 PM
Metallica "One" might need to get some consideration...

tho I hear Donnie already voted for "One is the loneliest number" 3 Dog Night...

-Bball

MagicRat
05-11-2006, 03:03 PM
(1..2...1,2,3,4)
Shed a tear 'cause I'm missing you
I'm still alright to smile
Ron, I think about you every day now

Was a time when I wasn't sure
But you set my mind at ease
There was no doubt in the playoffs you'd get suspended

Said Larry take it slow
It'll work itself out fine
All we need is just a little patience

Said Donnie make it slow
And we'll play together fine
All we need is just a little patience

(inhale) Patience...
Ooh, oh, yeah

Stand here in the vomitorium
'Cause I'd rather be alone
If you're hurt right now, I'll wait Tins
Sometimes, I get so fustrated
But I can't speed up AJ
But you know, JO's a premier top-ten player

Said JO lose fifteen pounds
And things will be just fine
Donnie and me'll just use a little patience

Said Peja take the time
'til your knee feels just right
You and the Hulkster's got what it takes to make it
Please Jeff fake it, Oh never take it
'Cause you can't make it

...little patience, mm yeah, ooh yeah,
Need a little Sarunas, yeah
Just a little more Granger, yeah
And some more pati... (ence, yeah)

I've been smoking these Marlboros at night
Just trying to get it right (Need some chemistry, yeah)
It's hard to play with so many injuries around
You know I don't like playing the post in a crowd(Could use a new center, yeah)
And if the players don't change we'll move them in a while
I ain't got time for Coach Carlisle
'Cause I need you (Vision, yeah)
Yeah, yeah well I need you
Oh, I need you (Take some patience)
Whoa, I need you (Just a little Isiah is all we need)
Ooh, this ti-ime......

bulletproof
05-11-2006, 03:07 PM
Shed a tear 'cause I'm missing you
I'm still alright to smile
Ron, I think about you every day now

Was a time when I wasn't sure
But you set my mind at ease
There was no doubt in the playoffs you'd get suspended

:laugh:

ChicagoJ
05-11-2006, 03:48 PM
Metallica "One" might need to get some consideration...

tho I hear Donnie already voted for "One is the loneliest number" 3 Dog Night...

-Bball

Yeah, I usually change my signature at the end of the Pacers' season to "One"

I didn't this year, but...


Hold My Breath as I Wish for Death
Oh Please God,wake Me
Now the World Is Gone I'm Just One
Oh God,help Me Hold My Breath as I Wish for Death
Oh Please God Help Me

Darkness Imprisoning Me
All That I See
Absolute Horror
I Cannot Live
I Cannot Die
Trapped in Myself
Body My Holding Cell

Landmine Has Taken My Sight
Taken My Speech
Taken My Hearing
Taken My Arms
Taken My Legs
Taken My Soul
Left Me with Life in Hell

Seems quite appropriate as the Pacers' theme song to me.

:blush: