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Will Galen
05-07-2006, 04:18 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060507/COLUMNISTS01/605070440/1088/SPORTS04

IndyStar.com Columnists Bob Kravitz

May 7, 2006

Pacers must step back to improve

A couple of weeks ago, Indiana Pacers president Larry Bird was asked if he ever considered blowing up the team and fielding a lottery-bound team for a couple of seasons in a bid to rebuild.

"I don't think we could do that here,'' he said. "I don't think we could afford to do it.''

Well, I'm not privy to the team's finances, and while I know the Simon brothers could buy and sell me many thousands of times over, I don't know how willing they are to field a sub-standard team that doesn't produce home playoff purses.

From a purely competitive standpoint, though, that is exactly what the Pacers need to do.

Blow it up. Tear it down. Start over. Play the lottery. Get busy in free agency once the big contracts -- notably the Austin Croshere deal -- expire. Take two steps back, maybe three, before taking the largest steps forward.

What? You want a few more seasons of 45 victories? And no chance to compete for a championship?

Yes, it is astonishing the Pacers have made the playoffs in 15 of the past 16 years, and Donnie Walsh deserves all the credit for continuing to field a competitive team during a period of massive transformation after the 2000 season. He committed abject thievery during those years, getting Jermaine O'Neal, dealing for Ron Artest and Brad Miller.

That, though, is not a magic act easily duplicated. Most teams fall completely out of sight for a while before re-emerging as contenders. And that, I believe, is what must now happen with the Pacers.

It's probably counterintuitive to Bird, who is too competitive to let his team fall off the map. And it's not the way Walsh, who is expected to retire at the end of next year, would want to leave the franchise.

But tinkering is a half-measure the Pacers can't afford to take. They've tried tinkering. They tinkered and brought in Stephen Jackson. They tinkered and mistakenly signed Sarunas Jasikevicius. Tinkering hasn't worked. And tinkering hasn't gotten this city excited, as evidenced by the empty seats at Conseco Fieldhouse this past week.

So they get rid of Jamaal Tinsley. What do they get back? Maybe a second-round draft choice.

So they move Jackson. Is he going to bring an impact player in return?
There is only one player on this roster who has the potential to bring the Pacers a star player in return, and that's O'Neal. But given all the injuries the past two years, the lack of production and the fact he's got a lot of miles on him at a relatively young age, how many teams are going to go strong after O'Neal? (Besides Isiah Thomas, that is.)

As for Peja Stojakovic, here's the deal: I believe the Pacers will bring him back if it's at the right price, in large part because they don't want to have dealt Artest for nothing. My feeling, though, is he's a one-trick pony, and if the Pacers opt to rebuild with youth, there's no place for him and a long-term deal.

It's time to think of the long-term future; it's time to think in terms of bringing in players who will give the Pacers cap space down the line. Already this summer, the franchise will drop Scot Pollard's and Reggie Miller's salaries from the cap, and they expect to get relief after the Jonathan Bender retirement. Next year, they will get out from under Croshere's salary, a mistake that turned into a huge albatross around the team's neck.

A couple of more sage moves, moves made with an eye on freeing up cash for free agents, and the Pacers will be sitting pretty in the years ahead.
Of course, it's a risk. Sometimes, teams get intentionally bad and stay bad for a very long time. But you look at the teams remaining in the playoffs, and all of them had to survive some lean years.

The Detroit Pistons were a second-division team until Joe Dumars made several brilliant trades and got a free agent named Chauncey Billups.

The Phoenix Suns fell off the map, then signed Steve Nash, brought in coach Mike D'Antoni and made several key additions through trades.

Cleveland, Dallas, New Jersey, Miami -- all had to pay a price for a time to get in position to build a championship-caliber team.

A lot of people would look at the empty seats and say, "If Indy won't support a playoff team, how would they hang tough for a few years winning 30 games?''

Clearly, though, this town is no longer interested in having a team that's just good enough. I think management can sell the city on a vision of the future that involves a little bit of suffering.

And while we're talking about rebuilding, one more thing: They Pacers have got to join the rest of the 21st century NBA and take advantage of the glut of foreign players. While the surviving playoff teams are loaded with foreign talent -- Dallas' Dirk Nowitzki, New Jersey's Nenad Krstic, San Antonio's Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker, Cleveland's Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Varejao, and many others -- the Pacers have done next to nothing overseas. Take the past six years, for instance. Primoz Brezec. Bruno Sundov. Sarunas Jasikevicius. The Pacers are 0-for-Europe.

Tear it down. Build it back up again.

Pacers fans haven't had to suffer like so many of their NBA brethren. Now, though, it's time to pay that price.
---------

Kravitz picks the wrong guys here on PD to agree with. It makes him look stupid. What he is advocating is like replacing all the pistons in your car engine because a couple are misfiring. We don't need to tear it completely down only to build it back up. All we need to do is replace the misfiring players.

We made the NBA finals in 2,000 and Donnie decided to rebuild the team. How long did it take him? In 2003-04 the team won 61 games.

My only fear in rebuilding is Bird is now doing the picking and he is picking shooters. That's okay but you need to guard people too.

Mourning
05-07-2006, 07:08 AM
Kravitz picks the wrong guys here on PD to agree with. It makes him look stupid. What he is advocating is like replacing all the pistons in your car engine because a couple are misfiring. We don't need to tear it completely down only to build it back up. All we need to do is replace the misfiring players.

We made the NBA finals in 2,000 and Donnie decided to rebuild the team. How long did it take him? In 2003-04 the team won 61 games.

My only fear in rebuilding is Bird is now doing the picking and he is picking shooters. That's okay but you need to guard people too.

Problem is that we have been dealing with what a drain of talent over the past few years.

Brad Miller, Ron Artest, Al Harrington, Reggie Miller all leaving or retiring, while Tinsely has become very injury-prone and thus also hardly useable, JO starting to seriously have problems staying healthy over the course of the season for the second year in succession.

Ok, we not only lost, we also gained players in return. We got a great talented player in Danny Granger in the draft, acquired Peja for (Mo)Ron and Jackson for Al Harrington, while signing AJ and Sarunas in Free Agency.

Now, I think we can all agree that adding by substraction can really work a lot of times, but in my opinion you need a minimum level of talent to remain and I think we have simply lost TOO much talent over the last years to make up for it easily.

Also I am not at all convinced we will be able to get much talent for Tinsley or Jackson in return, so like both of them or not, but we will again relatively lost talent. Sure, we might improve our chemistry, which is very important, but I seriously doubt, no, actually I am quite certain that that won't make up for much more on our teams record when we head off into the play-offs next year. In fact our record may actually be worse next year, compared to this year, as the east is getting stronger with young teams maturing more and more, hightening the competition, especially in the Central Division.

At the sametime we are at the point of resigning Peja, who plays the same position as our best talent (Granger), which means either of them will have to play at a position that he can or could possibly play at, but is not ideal for them.

So, we divide our (players/)talents (which IMO is limited) over positions that are not ideally suited for them, so they atleast make the minutes needed for them to progress a little. I rather have us simply doing a S&T with Peja, so Danny can play the position he is most suited for and he can be a difference maker (in my opinion) at SF. I think he could be good, but not a difference making player at either PF or SG.

Basically, I simply think our team can't afford the luxury of having two of it's three best players playing the same position resulting in one of them (Danny) having to play a position I am sure he can play, but is definitely not ideal for him and limits his progress at SF. Or atleast that's what I am very afraid of.

Now with all this said and done and with the team probably keeping Peja and trading Tinsley and Jackson (which moves I both would support depending on what we get back, I don't want a long lasting albatross mega-contract a la the Isiah Thomas Knicks have in abundance) and maybe one or two relatively marginal players we could probably get the 7th or 8th seed, but that's about it.

Maybe I am wrong, I could very well be. But, IF I am right or close to beying correct then in the draft we aren't going to get a high, but a middle of the road pick. Sometimes, you get lucky like we did with Danny last year, but that's very unlikely to happen repeatedly. Sure, we have in my opinion one of the best draft records in the NBA looking at how high (or low depending on your viewpoint ;)) we have drafted the last 20 years, but I don't think we are likely to get a real difference maker this year or next year if things play out like I think they will.

Endresult: a mediocre team for several years to come. Now I don't know about everyone of you, but I suspect almost no one on here would be very content with that, I know I wouldn't be.

I rather have us be a lottery team for a year or two and then heading steady into the play-offs with a young and revigorated team that won't be immediately be touching the luxury tax if we want to resign one of our players.

What this means? Probably letting go of JO :blush:. I'm sure I am going to get a lot of burn for this, but I think it's the only way to get significant returns for the long term.

Sure, we might get something for Austins or Benders contract next year, but are we expecting a real top player here or a really good talent? More likely we will get a decent player with a long term ugly contract or a good player on the decline with a multi-year contract (such as we are about to do with Peja this summer). Either way, none of those sort of signings is going to help us getting close to beying a contender again. They might actually make things worse by getting us a few more wins, weakening our draft pick position, and then when they leave or retire ... what happens? Well nothing, except that Danny, David (IF still here), JO (IF still here) will all be several years older and we will have accomplished nothing, except worsening our position in the longrun.

I say make a carefull firesale for draft picks, young talented 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players and expiring contracts. Now that would be in the long term adding by substracting.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

BBALL56HACKER
05-07-2006, 07:23 AM
I agree with most of your post but I think GRANGER will be a great 2 guard. He played some in college (as well as the foward). Plus when he was drafted he talked about being a 2/3 . He would be such a hard match for other teams to play against. We wouldn`t get killed by other guards on the boards as much. One question though-with Bender retiring we cannot trade his contract can we, and also Pacers are going to get it off the cap aren`t they?

Mourning
05-07-2006, 08:00 AM
I agree with most of your post but I think GRANGER will be a great 2 guard. He played some in college (as well as the foward). Plus when he was drafted he talked about being a 2/3 . He would be such a hard match for other teams to play against. We wouldn`t get killed by other guards on the boards as much. One question though-with Bender retiring we cannot trade his contract can we, and also Pacers are going to get it off the cap aren`t they?

Well, I am not questioning that Granger can play the 2 quite well, but I don't think he will be the kind of differencemaker that he, in my opinion, will become if he were to play SF.

With regards to Bender if all things go well ... and I hope I understood this right, he won't count against the cap for the Pacers.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

DeS
05-07-2006, 08:05 AM
Very good post Mourning. Still I think, that Pacers can allow the luxury to play both (Danny and Peja) at the same position. Imo: Danny still need someone to learn from; we desperately need an outside shooter and Peja is a proven one of them; untill its proven otherwise, i think Peja could play equal amount of minutes without ruining chemistry.
I'm not letting go either of them ;)

Seed
05-07-2006, 08:33 AM
Mourning, wouldn't you like to see this basic roster running for a single year with less of the chemistry/injury issues? I mean look at it this way:
1. We trade Tins, Jax, and maybe DH, Fred.
2. We use their value and the money from Bender's, Polly's contracts to acquire a decent SG, and maybe a good back-up at center.
3. We keep Jeff as our big guy, and let AJ start PG, and Saras back him.

Basically this means a much better SG than this year, and pretty much the same PG we had this year (AJ). I t also means this team is less injury prone, and has better chemistry.

I'm sure it will perform rather well (think what the addition of a good SG will do). The main risk I see is the PG spot. If it turns out to be a our main problem, we can acquire a great PG in the year after, by using Austin's salary, and trading Saras/AJ. You may then trade Peja too for a big guy and get a monster team.

What do you/others think?

Unclebuck
05-07-2006, 08:47 AM
Endresult: a mediocre team for several years to come. Now I don't know about everyone of you, but I suspect almost no one on here would be very content with that, I know I wouldn't be.

I rather have us be a lottery team for a year or two and then heading steady into the play-offs with a young and revigorated team that won't be immediately be touching the luxury tax if we want to resign one of our players.

What this means? Probably letting go of JO :blush:. I'm sure I am going to get a lot of burn for this, but I think it's the only way to get significant returns for the long term.

I say make a carefull firesale for draft picks, young talented 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players and expiring contracts. Now that would be in the long term adding by substracting.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:


OK, when you say "letting go of JO", I assume you mean trade him for draft picks, current or future cap space or very young unproven talent. I think that is the wrong way to go. There is no guarantee, in fact I could make a very good case that the Pacers will not be able to attract any top notch free agents. There are certainly no guarantees that draft picks will work out either. Look at the history of how the same teams are in the lottery every year.

How did the Wizard and Clippers get out of the lottery. Was it with draft picks no. The Clipppers traded for Brand a few years ago, giving up a top 3 pick and acquiring Cassell last summer. The Wizards did it with acquring Gilbert and, Jamison. Unless you "hit the lottery" and get Lebron the same teams are in the lottery almost every year. But getting a player like Lebron takes a lot more than getting the number one pick. Players like him come along once every 10 years, in other words you have to get the number 1 pick in the correct year. Do you think Bogut is going to turn any franchise around.

Unless we can get quality for J.O. I'm not trading him. I don't want to go back into the lottery. I don't want to win 25 games ever. I do wonder how many tickets Kravitz family will buy to see a 25 win team.

One other thing no one brings up very often. it is more difficult to attract top notch free agents to a team that wins 25 games than it is to a team that is winning 40-45 games. Players won't want to come here if this team stinks, we'll have to overpay to get average talent.

A few smart traded this summer and with a little bit of luck this team could be a contender again a lot sooner than if we took Kravitz approach.

Mourning
05-07-2006, 09:17 AM
OK, when you say "letting go of JO", I assume you mean trade him for draft picks, current or future cap space or very young unproven talent. I think that is the wrong way to go. There is no guarantee, in fact I could make a very good case that the Pacers will not be able to attract any top notch free agents. There are certainly no guarantees that draft picks will work out either. Look at the history of how the same teams are in the lottery every year.

How did the Wizard and Clippers get out of the lottery. Was it with draft picks no. The Clipppers traded for Brand a few years ago, giving up a top 3 pick and acquiring Cassell last summer. The Wizards did it with acquring Gilbert and, Jamison. Unless you "hit the lottery" and get Lebron the same teams are in the lottery almost every year. But getting a player like Lebron takes a lot more than getting the number one pick. Players like him come along once every 10 years, in other words you have to get the number 1 pick in the correct year. Do you think Bogut is going to turn any franchise around.

Unless we can get quality for J.O. I'm not trading him. I don't want to go back into the lottery. I don't want to win 25 games ever. I do wonder how many tickets Kravitz family will buy to see a 25 win team.

One other thing no one brings up very often. it is more difficult to attract top notch free agents to a team that wins 25 games than it is to a team that is winning 40-45 games. Players won't want to come here if this team stinks, we'll have to overpay to get average talent.

A few smart traded this summer and with a little bit of luck this team could be a contender again a lot sooner than if we took Kravitz approach.

Ok, I see your point and I think you make a fair one. There are nog quarantees, but I do want to point out that you don't necessarily need to hit a "Lebron". I think Miami is doing quite well with Wade, New Orleans are doing a good thing with Chris Paul, I like Chris Bosh aswell. These are just some examples, there are a lot more.

A lot of players premiere players stay with the franchise that drafted them. Also, I don't know about you, but that $20+ mln dollar contract fgor JO for quite some years is getting me a little nervous about the room we will ever have to get a FA of value at all and with a team (ours) that is nowhere near contention for the next two years (unless you think we hit a "Rasheed" near the trade deadline, but I don't think that will happen and I also think that we would be making ourselves quite vulnerable to makes us dependent on such a move to get us back to the top)

A JO btw that will soon start aging and might have already started giving signs of that (injuries, more and more), remember he didn't enter the league when he was 22 or 23 like a lot of the 80's and 90's top power forwards did, he entered it significantly earlier.

So, IF by all means we get back at the top in say the season of 2007-2008 (I don't see how, but ok let's leave that little detail aside), we will be playing with a PF whom I severely doubt will be playing more than 60 games a season, while receiving $20+ mln a year limiting all our options for resigning other players or attracting other ones through Free Agency.

Free Agency. Yes, it is hard for a team like Indy to get good players via that route, but it's not impossible and when we do get some results because of young talent showing some of their play and we do have a lot of room to sign players then why shouldn't we be able to get a good Free Agent? Milwaukee has done so, Detroit has done so, Washington has done so, etc.

I think our franchise is a lot better operated at the top then Atlanta, Golden State or the early of this decade Bulls. I'm not so afraid of those kind of situations. I think we can do it, but a half hearted approach will result in failure. We need to make hard choices.

I as a fan am willing to sacrifice watching a bad team for one or two years and then having a good chance of advancing high up into the NBA hierarchy, there are no quarantees, but I think it makes it a lot more attractive then 50% ball which we are heading towards and it may even be less, because the East is getting stronger with young teams maturing in Cleveland, Milwaukee, Toronto, Washington and Orlando soon joining or already having joined the ranks of play-off teams.

We had it hard getting the 6th seed this year? Go watch next year if we just trade Tinsley and Jackson and some others away and get marginal players like Jared Jeffries back.

I think we simply lost too much talent over the years for addition by substraction to work anymore.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
05-07-2006, 09:26 AM
Mourning, wouldn't you like to see this basic roster running for a single year with less of the chemistry/injury issues? I mean look at it this way:
1. We trade Tins, Jax, and maybe DH, Fred.
2. We use their value and the money from Bender's, Polly's contracts to acquire a decent SG, and maybe a good back-up at center.
3. We keep Jeff as our big guy, and let AJ start PG, and Saras back him.

Basically this means a much better SG than this year, and pretty much the same PG we had this year (AJ). I t also means this team is less injury prone, and has better chemistry.

I'm sure it will perform rather well (think what the addition of a good SG will do). The main risk I see is the PG spot. If it turns out to be a our main problem, we can acquire a great PG in the year after, by using Austin's salary, and trading Saras/AJ. You may then trade Peja too for a big guy and get a monster team.

What do you/others think?

I don't think we will be getting that good SG with what we have to trade, unless it's one with a hefty multi-year contract that either has his team disgruntled with him or him beying disgruntles with his team. Chances are the guy is probably either on the decline or atleast getting older.

I also don't think we have enough up front to prevent JO from getting even more banged up. I like Jeff, but one thing that has been clear for me for several years is that he is not a starter for this team.

We need someone who can absorb some of the blows, who can enforce at defense and who isn't totally useless on the offensive end. It would be perfect if we could get a guy that finally draws some of the attention away from JO or atleast makes double or tripple teaming on him that much more difficult.

Those guys are rare, but I would really like us to make a move for Magloire this summer. It is unlikely as he's on a divisional rival and what do we have that they like?

PG will be too weak too IMO. I like AJ and Sarunas both, but with the loss of Tinsley due to injury we really need to do something here aswell.

I just see too many holes too be filled, and both not good enough draft picks and enough financial means to get them fixed, maybe I am too negative, I don't know.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

able
05-07-2006, 10:22 AM
Please name me all of 5 players of impact (thanks Jay) that were signed as FA away from thre team they were with over the past couple of years?

Forget FA, in FA you can sign an addition, but not an impact (thanks Jay) player or at least not with any frequency or sure goods.

Draft is what it is, lottery and luck and trades are the only way the real top players are moving around, IF.

Look at all the teams that had or have a lot of cap space and see what they attracted in a sense of FA's

Kegboy
05-07-2006, 10:30 AM
People around here don't get what "rebuilding" really means. Rebuilding is not the Isiah Thomas years. Rebuilding is the Tim Floyd Bulls years. Name one team that blew up their team, went down in the lottery for "a year or two" then was a good team again? Better yet, name one GM who chose to blow up his team, then still had his job by the time they were successful again.

bulletproof
05-07-2006, 10:34 AM
I don't want to win 25 games ever. I do wonder how many tickets Kravitz family will buy to see a 25 win team.
I haven't really minded Kravitz' articles lately, but this one feels insincere.



One other thing no one brings up very often. it is more difficult to attract top notch free agents to a team that wins 25 games than it is to a team that is winning 40-45 games. Players won't want to come here if this team stinks, we'll have to overpay to get average talent.
Not to mention, Indianapolis isn't Los Angeles, New York or Miami.

Seed
05-07-2006, 10:42 AM
I don't think we will be getting that good SG with what we have to trade.

I agree this is the key point. TPTB have some assets here. They must play with what they have: some money from Bender's & Polly's contracts expiration, Jax, Tins, Fred, DH and in the worst case - Peja, and get this SG. They can also use Danny as backup SG to compensate for Fred's loss without acquiring a new backup.



I also don't think we have enough up front to prevent JO from getting even more banged up. I like Jeff, but one thing that has been clear for me for several years is that he is not a starter for this team.

Well, I don't think Jeff was our weak link during the regular season. The playoffs were a different story. We lack in mass and agresiveness. That's why the lack of development and use of DH was the real bad, not the appearance of Foster.



PG will be too weak too IMO. I like AJ and Sarunas both, but with the loss of Tinsley due to injury we really need to do something here aswell.

AJ & Saras played rather well as starting & backup duo this season. None is a top-10 PG in the league, but they have very different styles, which is a benefit. Also - the chemistry between these 2 seems very good: did you notice how Saras enjoyed AJ's 40 points game?



I just see too many holes too be filled, and both not good enough draft picks and enough financial means to get them fixed, maybe I am too negative, I don't know.

All in all, I think it is worth to think again whether this team, with the proper roster tweaks, and with less injuries and ego-issues, can acheive something.
Starting:
- AJ
- new GOOD SG
- Peja
- JO
- Jeff
Backing:
- Danny (with more minutes as he can help both in SG and SF)
- Cro
- Saras
- Improved DH.

And if it fails, your'e still not doomed. Use Austin's huge salary, trade a great player like Peja, and solid ones like Jeff and Saras/AJ, and you got a monster:
Starting:
- new GOOD PG
- new GOOD SG
- Danny
- JO
- new GOOD Center
and a shorter bench (I admit).

Roaming Gnome
05-07-2006, 12:01 PM
Since no one has said it yet, Kravitz just doesnt know enough about the NBA for his comment to hold any weight or merit. This rediculous column just discredits any knowledge he has on what it takes to be critical of any NBA GM's job. Kegboy and UB just nailed my thoughts to a tee....Bottom line: Rebuilding and being a lottery team sucks and offers no guarantees!



Sorry Morning, but trading J.O. for unproven draft picks and a one way ticket to the lottery is SOOOO not the way to go. As for UB's question to Kravitz about how many tickets he is going to buy for a suck *** lottery team...I don't know, but I wouldn't stand for it and let them keep my deposit for my next years season tickets and demand the rest of my money back!

The only answer is to re-tool, leave the dynamite alone! I believe a new coaching philosophy goes a long ways in getting it done.

Mourning
05-07-2006, 12:21 PM
People around here don't get what "rebuilding" really means. Rebuilding is not the Isiah Thomas years. Rebuilding is the Tim Floyd Bulls years. Name one team that blew up their team, went down in the lottery for "a year or two" then was a good team again? Better yet, name one GM who chose to blow up his team, then still had his job by the time they were successful again.

Come on! That is NOT what I am saying at all. Besides, I think the Nuggets didn't do too bad the last few years. They are sucking mostly because they signed a PF to a monstercontract instead of getting a good SG with that money.

Orlando is now also on the right way, but they aren't there yet. I am not saying sell EVERYTHING like some are implying, I am saying sell the cancers, the excess talent at one position and if push came to shove, sell our current star player not for just draft picks, but also a promising player and if we can some expiring contracts.

Guess, I am the only one here who is worried about JO's contract and the number of games he has played or the influence he has had on the games we play :rolleyes:.

Btw Able, where did I say I wanted to get a top player through FA? I said suck one or two years to get a few good players through the draft and through trading and maybe add a good or decent player through Free Agency.

Now we can get all semantic about this, but let me say with "good" I don't mean a "premiere player" like I wrote in a previous post. So, your point of attack is moot here IMO. I see FA more as a means of getting some additional help. Besides, why don't you talk about a S&T here? IF Sac-Town could do that to us then why shouldn't we be able to do it to some other team. Sure, they don't happen that frequently, so?

I just don't like the longterm for our team with simply retooling a little. That's almost painless, but I think if we really want to change things then it can't be done without pain. Unless you think adding a (just throwing names at random out here) Ronald Murray, a James Posey, a Sam Cassell in Free Agency or a Nestorivic, a Brian Skinner or a Eddie Griffin in a trade would help us get back in contention.


PS: I don't want to appear as weak or evasive, so here's a shortlist of 5 players I dug up in about a minute or 2 with regarding to FA:

1) Steve Nash
2) Gilbert Arenas
3) Chancey Billups
4) Lamar Odom
5) Tracy MacGrady

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
05-07-2006, 12:33 PM
Since no one has said it yet, Kravitz just doesnt know enough about the NBA for his comment to hold any weight or merit. This rediculous column just discredits any knowledge he has on what it takes to be critical of any NBA GM's job. Kegboy and UB just nailed my thoughts to a tee....Bottom line: Rebuilding and being a lottery team sucks and offers no guarantees!



Sorry Morning, but trading J.O. for unproven draft picks and a one way ticket to the lottery is SOOOO not the way to go. As for UB's question to Kravitz about how many tickets he is going to buy for a suck *** lottery team...I don't know, but I wouldn't stand for it and let them keep my deposit for my next years season tickets and demand the rest of my money back!

The only answer is to re-tool, leave the dynamite alone! I believe a new coaching philosophy goes a long ways in getting it done.

There are never quarantees in life. Can you guarantee me that we will be getting something decent in the coming months? Something that propels us back into contention all of a sudden?

Again, the whole point I am making is that I think that over the past years we have lost too much talent to now make up for it by following the "addition by substraction"-theory. I find it strange everyone seems to be tumbling over the remarks regarding the lottery, but do not comment on this point.

Do you all believe we have enough talent left that we can trade away malcontents for lesser talent, because that IS what we are talking about with regards to Tinsley and Jackson? And then become a contender again? Especially with the sort of picks we are going to get and the east and in particular the central division getting stronger?

I don't believe that.

Besides, I'm not advocating trading JO just for expirings or draft picks. Why not go for a second or third year player that is on the verge? I trust Donnie and his scouts enough to steal one or more away from another team and maybe get other stuff in the process.

Maybe a new coaching philosophy would help. Actually, I am pretty sure it would help depending on who we would get and I don't see such a long list of quality candidates there. But, it might help if only because Rick probably has lost the team. But, then still I don't think we would have enough quality to anything impressive in the play-offs.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Bball
05-07-2006, 01:01 PM
Why not go for a second or third year player that is on the verge? I trust Donnie and his scouts enough to steal one or more away from another team and maybe get other stuff in the process.


Mourning :cool:

That is the scary part and why I have said it is time for a change in management. I don't have the faith in DW that some of you have (jury is out on Bird as far I can tell) and the most worrisome part is that I fear if Walsh made a blockbuster trade involving JO and it didn't work out, he'd stubbornly refuse to admit and not cut our losses and move on.

Of course if he's going to retire in a year anyway (as Kravitz says) then any mistake would become someone else's problem and I doubt anyone can be as stubborn about admitting a mistake and moving on as DW.



-Bball

Arcadian
05-07-2006, 01:05 PM
I think Kravitz would be happier with a 25 win team. He would enjoy writing and calling for heads about how managment let this team slide into the lottery.

Jermaniac
05-07-2006, 01:09 PM
I think Kravitz would be happier with a 25 win team. He would enjoy writing and calling for heads about how managment let this team slide into the lottery.Yep, if we did blow the team up like he wants us too, he would just find a new set of players/managment people to ***** about.

owl
05-07-2006, 01:18 PM
Kravitz is a muck-raker. That is all his articles are meant to do. Before
Gannett we had writers who had balance in their articles. Most of his
articles are unreadable.


owl

Bball
05-07-2006, 01:18 PM
I think Kravitz would be happier with a 25 win team. He would enjoy writing and calling for heads about how managment let this team slide into the lottery.

He'd be right...

-Bball

bulletproof
05-07-2006, 01:20 PM
That is the scart part and why I have said it is time for a change in management. I don't have the faith in DW that some of you have (jury is out on Bird as far I can tell) and the most worrisome part is that I fear if Walsh made a blockbuster trade involving JO and it didn't work out, he'd stubbornly refuse to admit and not cut our losses and move on.

Of course if he's going to retire in a year anyway (as Kravitz says) then any mistake would become someone else's problem and I doubt anyone can be as stubborn about admitting a mistake and moving on as DW.

Your baiting is getting tiresome. And this desire you have for Donnie to admit he's made mistakes is truly bizarre, almost sociopathic. What did he say about Ron? "Sometimes you fall in love with talent." I think that comes pretty close to admitting that he made an error in judgment. Also, show me quotes of other GMs admitting to their mistakes. Like I said, truly bizarre.

Arcadian
05-07-2006, 01:26 PM
No, he would be a hypocrit--asking for the team to go into the lottery and the critize them for it. Maybe he left some wiggle room with a cavat.

Also if he would be right for railing against about managment going into the lottery then he'd also be wrong. How many times have the Pacer's been in the lottery in the last 10, 15 years? If heads should roll for allowing a team to go into the lottery then the converse should be true. But then some just like to complain.

Bball
05-07-2006, 01:39 PM
Your baiting is getting tiresome. And this desire you have for Donnie to admit he's made mistakes is truly bizarre, almost sociopathic. What did he say about Ron? "Sometimes you fall in love with talent." I think that comes pretty close to admitting that he made an error in judgment. Also, show me quotes of other GMs admitting to their mistakes. Like I said, truly bizarre.

When I say "admitting his mistakes" I am not talking about a tearful apology on Oprah, I am talking actions.

Example:
Bender was a mistake. Fine, we traded AD for the 5th pick and then blew it. It was clear Bender was never going to be half the player AD was. Don't compound the mistake by re-signing the guy to a bloated contract. Let him walk or trade him by the 3rd year....whatever...

Skaut Ech had a GREAT quote from Joe Dumars about this very type of thing. Donnie could learn a lot from Joe Dumars.

-Bball

Robertmto
05-07-2006, 01:46 PM
Jonathon Bender's contract is in worse shape than the buffet @ Golden Corral when Oprah's family reunion walks in!

Knucklehead Warrior
05-07-2006, 10:56 PM
Hindsight's pretty good on that AD-Bender trade isn't it?
The decision at the time was a darned good one. We had a guy who wasn't happy, wanted to start, was nearing the end of his career, and we traded him for the 5th pick in the draft. What's not to like?

bulletproof
05-07-2006, 11:07 PM
Hindsight's pretty good on that AD-Bender trade isn't it?
The decision at the time was a darned good one. We had a guy who wasn't happy, wanted to start, was nearing the end of his career, and we traded him for the 5th pick in the draft. What's not to like?

The actual pick. Look who we passed up:

Wally Szczerbiak
Richard Hamilton
Andre Miller
Shawn Marion
Jason Terry
Corey Maggette
Andrei Kirilenko

Ack!

SoupIsGood
05-07-2006, 11:17 PM
They Pacers have got to join the rest of the 21st century NBA and take advantage of the glut of foreign players. While the surviving playoff teams are loaded with foreign talent -- Dallas' Dirk Nowitzki, New Jersey's Nenad Krstic, San Antonio's Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker, Cleveland's Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Varejao, and many others -- the Pacers have done next to nothing overseas. Take the past six years, for instance. Primoz Brezec. Bruno Sundov. Sarunas Jasikevicius. The Pacers are 0-for-Europe.



First off, nice typo Bob. :rolleyes:

I didn't read the entire article, because it was Kravitz and Kravitz = trash.

I did see this though. I completely agree.

I'm counting on Bird to draft Rudy Fernandez. This kid is going to be a very good SG, and should be available at #17.

I think Rudy and Danny at the 2 and 3 would have us set for years at the starting swing positions.


Edit - Good to know Larry is on top of things.

http://www.encancha.com/imagenes/noticias/20051215_bird2.jpg
In this pic, Larry is in Barcelona, primarily for the purposes of scouting Rudy Fernandez.

Hopefully he liked what he saw.