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SwissExpress
05-06-2006, 07:16 AM
State of the cap evaluation is nbadraft.net's annual feature. They summarize good/bad/future in respect of each team and give a grade in the end.

Yesterday they published one on the Pacers.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2006stateofthecapindiana001.asp

State of the Cap: Indiana Pacers

2006/07 Indiana Pacers Payroll: $61.1 million
2006/07 Estimated NBA Salary Cap: $52 million
Roughly: $9.1 million over cap
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD width=13></TD><TD width=240>http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/largepics/joneal03.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width=13 height=28></TD><TD width=240>Jermaine O'Neal
AP Photo/Mel Evans
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The Good: Indiana's cap situation starts to improve this off-season. Scot Pollard and Reggie Miller come off the books, saving the team $12.3 million. And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts. Croshere and Bender have been sore spots for a long time and Indiana will not be sad to see them go. Better yet, both of their contracts will be valuable trade assets heading into next season.
The Bad: Not even their superstar, Jermaine O'Neal, is immune from entering the "Bad" section. There is no doubt that O'Neal is an incredible talent and a team leader. He led the Pacers in points (20.1), rebounds (9.3), and blocks (2.3). Plus, were it not for O'Neal calling out his teammates in public to play better, Indiana might not have made the playoffs at all.

However, Jermaine's contract is massive. He will earn an average of $20.5 million dollars for the next 4 years. He also hasn't played in more than 51 games in any of the past two seasons. Indiana needs their leader to be on the court. They also don't need him to simply be good, he must be great, especially with the money they are paying him (one of the top ten salaries in the league). We all know O'Neal has the ability to earn his contract, but he must stay healthy and elevate his game a little more.

Jamaal Tinsley still has 5 long years left on his contract for roughly $6.7 million per season. First of all, Jamaal has a lot of trouble just staying on the court. The often-injured point guard hasn't played in more than 52 games in any of the past three seasons. Secondly, Anthony Johnson, a player who makes half as much money as Jamaal, is outplaying him this year. Last I looked, Johnson wasn't playing very well either. The Pacers are probably stuck with Tinsley for a long time.

Jeff Foster will make about $17 million dollars the next three years. He is a rebounding fool, grabbing 9.1 a game in just 25 minutes of play. Foster has also had his own health issues the past two years and he provides absolutely nothing on offense and rarely blocks a shot. His pay isn't outlandish, but it's a bit steep for such a one-dimensional player.
The Future: The Pacers had to endure another difficult and emotional season. The injuries, the Ron Artest uncertainty, and poor play nearly caused the team to miss the playoffs.

As difficult as it was, trading away Ron Artest was a great move by this franchise. Even though Ron is playing well as a King, he simply had to go. Peja Stojakovic has played pretty well for this team, scoring 19.5 points a game, grabbing 6.3 rebounds, and shooting an incredible 90% from the free throw line this season. If he leaves as a free agent, the Pacers will get some much-needed cap relief, but the team is planning to keep him. At the right price, Peja would be a nice shooting guard to hang on to.

Indiana's top rookie, Danny Granger, had some really nice games this year. The team was ecstatic when Granger fell to them in the first round. So far, he looks like a keeper.

The biggest need for this team is at point guard. The three-headed monster of Tinsley, Johnson, and rookie Sarunas Jasikevicius will not get them anywhere. Even though they are over the cap, Indiana does have some expiring contracts they could use to acquire a good point guard.
Bonus Points… for handling the Ron Artest situation so well. I thought the Pacers did an excellent job of keeping him and his attitude away from the team as well as having the patience to work out a good trade. They could have unloaded Ron for nothing (like Toronto with Vince Carter), but they hung around and got an excellent shooting guard to replace him. Hopefully they can resign Peja this summer.

Grade: C-
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indygeezer
05-06-2006, 07:24 AM
State of the cap evaluation is nbadraft.net's annual feature. They summarize good/bad/future in respect of each team and give a grade in the end.

Yesterday they published one on the Pacers.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2006stateofthecapindiana001.asp

State of the Cap: Indiana Pacers

2006/07 Indiana Pacers Payroll: $61.1 million
2006/07 Estimated NBA Salary Cap: $52 million
Roughly: $9.1 million over cap
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD width=13></TD><TD width=240>http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/largepics/joneal03.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width=13 height=28></TD><TD width=240>Jermaine O'Neal
AP Photo/Mel Evans
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The Good: Indiana's cap situation starts to improve this off-season. Scot Pollard and Reggie Miller come off the books, saving the team $12.3 million. And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts. Croshere and Bender have been sore spots for a long time and Indiana will not be sad to see them go. Better yet, both of their contracts will be valuable trade assets heading into next season.
The Bad: Not even their superstar, Jermaine O'Neal, is immune from entering the "Bad" section. There is no doubt that O'Neal is an incredible talent and a team leader. He led the Pacers in points (20.1), rebounds (9.3), and blocks (2.3). Plus, were it not for O'Neal calling out his teammates in public to play better, Indiana might not have made the playoffs at all.

However, Jermaine's contract is massive. He will earn an average of $20.5 million dollars for the next 4 years. He also hasn't played in more than 51 games in any of the past two seasons. Indiana needs their leader to be on the court. They also don't need him to simply be good, he must be great, especially with the money they are paying him (one of the top ten salaries in the league). We all know O'Neal has the ability to earn his contract, but he must stay healthy and elevate his game a little more.

Jamaal Tinsley still has 5 long years left on his contract for roughly $6.7 million per season. First of all, Jamaal has a lot of trouble just staying on the court. The often-injured point guard hasn't played in more than 52 games in any of the past three seasons. Secondly, Anthony Johnson, a player who makes half as much money as Jamaal, is outplaying him this year. Last I looked, Johnson wasn't playing very well either. The Pacers are probably stuck with Tinsley for a long time.

Jeff Foster will make about $17 million dollars the next three years. He is a rebounding fool, grabbing 9.1 a game in just 25 minutes of play. Foster has also had his own health issues the past two years and he provides absolutely nothing on offense and rarely blocks a shot. His pay isn't outlandish, but it's a bit steep for such a one-dimensional player.
The Future: The Pacers had to endure another difficult and emotional season. The injuries, the Ron Artest uncertainty, and poor play nearly caused the team to miss the playoffs.

As difficult as it was, trading away Ron Artest was a great move by this franchise. Even though Ron is playing well as a King, he simply had to go. Peja Stojakovic has played pretty well for this team, scoring 19.5 points a game, grabbing 6.3 rebounds, and shooting an incredible 90% from the free throw line this season. If he leaves as a free agent, the Pacers will get some much-needed cap relief, but the team is planning to keep him. At the right price, Peja would be a nice shooting guard to hang on to.

Indiana's top rookie, Danny Granger, had some really nice games this year. The team was ecstatic when Granger fell to them in the first round. So far, he looks like a keeper.

The biggest need for this team is at point guard. The three-headed monster of Tinsley, Johnson, and rookie Sarunas Jasikevicius will not get them anywhere. Even though they are over the cap, Indiana does have some expiring contracts they could use to acquire a good point guard.
Bonus Points… for handling the Ron Artest situation so well. I thought the Pacers did an excellent job of keeping him and his attitude away from the team as well as having the patience to work out a good trade. They could have unloaded Ron for nothing (like Toronto with Vince Carter), but they hung around and got an excellent shooting guard to replace him. Hopefully they can resign Peja this summer.

Grade: C-
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Point 1) Wasn't that CRO that made the comments that got them going in the right direction?

#2) How much SG did Peja play? That musta been back during Lent 'cause I don't remember seeing it happen.

Ragnar
05-06-2006, 12:20 PM
The ONLY area AJ outplayed Jamaal was in shooting percentage (not a pg's job) and games played. AJ cant get his team involved and thats part of the reason we lost to the nets. Sure AJ had a good game (for a shooting guard) the problem is he was playing the point.

Peck
05-06-2006, 01:09 PM
Hold it I'm confused.

If Pollard, Gill, Jones, Peja, Bender & Reggie all come off of the salary this year you mean we are still over the damn salary cap? :confused:

Good God!!!

For some reason I actually thought this season we would have some room to manuver & if we weren't under the cap we would be right at it.

Los Angeles
05-06-2006, 01:12 PM
The ONLY area AJ outplayed Jamaal was in shooting percentage (not a pg's job) and games played. AJ cant get his team involved and thats part of the reason we lost to the nets. Sure AJ had a good game (for a shooting guard) the problem is he was playing the point.
You'll never give this up.

Johnson owned Tinsley this season. OUTPLAYED, OUTPERFORMED, OUTCLASSED. Johnson might not be the answer, but he was a much better answer than Tinsley.

Tinsley sucked all year. He is a broken down shadow of his former self.

bulletproof
05-06-2006, 01:18 PM
Hold it I'm confused.

If Pollard, Gill, Jones, Peja, Bender & Reggie all come off of the salary this year you mean we are still over the damn salary cap? :confused:

Good God!!!

For some reason I actually thought this season we would have some room to manuver & if we weren't under the cap we would be right at it.

Where are you getting your math?

2006/07 Indiana Pacers Payroll: $61.1 million
2006/07 Estimated NBA Salary Cap: $52 million
Roughly: $9.1 million over cap

Scot Pollard and Reggie Miller come off the books, saving the team $12.3 million. And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts.

Maybe next year won't be so bad after all. Those expiring contracts are going to valuable.

bulletproof
05-06-2006, 01:19 PM
You'll never give this up.

Johnson owned Tinsley this season. OUTPLAYED, OUTPERFORMED, OUTCLASSED. Johnson might not be the answer, but he was a much better answer than Tinsley.

Tinsley sucked all year. He is a broken down shadow of his former self.

:applaud:

Someone had to say it. Here, you can borrow my Bball pic:

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD302/OS40024.JPG

Los Angeles
05-06-2006, 01:20 PM
Hold it I'm confused.

If Pollard, Gill, Jones, Peja, Bender & Reggie all come off of the salary this year you mean we are still over the damn salary cap? :confused:

Good God!!!

For some reason I actually thought this season we would have some room to manuver & if we weren't under the cap we would be right at it.
Beder was signed through next season. I don't know if he will be removed through the "medical rules" it's been a while since those threads, but I think that able had a good post about his status and all the rules/options surrounding his situation.

Kegboy
05-06-2006, 01:45 PM
Where are you getting your math?

2006/07 Indiana Pacers Payroll: $61.1 million
2006/07 Estimated NBA Salary Cap: $52 million
Roughly: $9.1 million over cap

Scot Pollard and Reggie Miller come off the books, saving the team $12.3 million. And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts.

Maybe next year won't be so bad after all. Those expiring contracts are going to valuable.

Peck never pays attention to the cap. That's why he still doesn't get what the harm would have been in overpaying Brad.

Of course, if his ticket price went up 60%, maybe he'd pay closer attention. :(

able
05-06-2006, 01:47 PM
this article besides an opinion is crap.

sorry no other word for, as far as cap info goes it is all wrong.

Peck
05-06-2006, 01:51 PM
Where are you getting your math?

2006/07 Indiana Pacers Payroll: $61.1 million
2006/07 Estimated NBA Salary Cap: $52 million
Roughly: $9.1 million over cap

Scot Pollard and Reggie Miller come off the books, saving the team $12.3 million. And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts.

Maybe next year won't be so bad after all. Those expiring contracts are going to valuable.


I'm not sure where my math is wrong?

Like I said, not just Pollard & Reggie but also Jones, Peja, Gill & Bender. In theory they should all come off of the cap. right now.

Peck
05-06-2006, 01:53 PM
Peck never pays attention to the cap. That's why he still doesn't get what the harm would have been in overpaying Brad.

Of course, if his ticket price went up 60%, maybe he'd pay closer attention. :(

I'm not here to debate the merits of the trade but I fail to see if we are still over the cap & still can't do anything how signing Brad or not signing Brad would make a differance one way or the other.

In theory your guys point about Brad should be realized this summer. Pollard should come off of the cap. However, which I said at the time, it never matters because we are always over the cap.

But with everybody going off all at once here I though we honestly had a chance to be at or under the cap. this year.

Kegboy
05-06-2006, 01:58 PM
I'm not here to debate the merits of the trade but I fail to see if we are still over the cap & still can't do anything how signing Brad or not signing Brad would make a differance one way or the other.

In theory your guys point about Brad should be realized this summer. Pollard should come off of the cap. However, which I said at the time, it never matters because we are always over the cap.

But with everybody going off all at once here I though we honestly had a chance to be at or under the cap. this year.

You might have picked up on the theme during the "Trade Ron" days that it was repeatedly stated that we could be under the cap if we included Cro for an expiring contract. But no, we're still over the cap, as we were destined to be ever since we re-signed Austin in the first place.

Mourning
05-06-2006, 02:00 PM
this article besides an opinion is crap.

sorry no other word for, as far as cap info goes it is all wrong.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm not really an expert on CAP-territory.
I aggree that some of the "opinions" laid down in the article are incorrect (the remark about AJ and designating Peja as a SG come to mind as good examples IMO).

But, is there anything factually wrong with the numbers? Bender was brought up above and in another thread aswell. I have no idea what his status is with regards to his salary as I didn't really read much about him and his situation after I read he would stop.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Hicks
05-06-2006, 02:00 PM
this article besides an opinion is crap.

sorry no other word for, as far as cap info goes it is all wrong.

That would make it different than any other article about the Pacers, how?

Where's the Fact King?

bulletproof
05-06-2006, 02:08 PM
I'm not sure where my math is wrong?

Like I said, not just Pollard & Reggie but also Jones, Peja, Gill & Bender. In theory they should all come off of the cap. right now.

Maybe I'm just not clear on how you're reading that article. I wouldn't take it entirely at face value, but you said, "If Pollard, Gill, Jones, Peja, Bender & Reggie all come off of the salary this year you mean we are still over the damn salary cap? Good God!!!" And even by that article, that's clearly not the case.

CableKC
05-06-2006, 02:31 PM
And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts. Croshere and Bender have been sore spots for a long time and Indiana will not be sad to see them go. Better yet, both of their contracts will be valuable trade assets heading into next season.

I'm confused....if Bender is retiring...is it still a contract that we can use as a bargaining chip for the offseason?

At least for Croshere's contract....I can see the Pacers using it in a trade to acquire a player before the trade deadline in 2006-2007 season.

There are gonna be teams lining up to get ready for the 2007-2008 Free Agent offseason....and they are gonna need to clear cap space in preperation for any run at any major free agents that offseason.

bulldog
05-06-2006, 02:57 PM
I think a better bet than trying to get under the cap is trading away some of those expiring contracts (Crosh and Bender). Along with Peja and SJax, probably the only assets we really have unless we're willing to totally blow the team up (trade JO).

Is there a SG on a rebuilding team that would take cap space in return?

Can we get Joe Johnson maybe? Atlanta doesn't really need cap, but I've heard rumblings over there that the contract and the style don't really fit Atlanta.

Anthem
05-06-2006, 03:35 PM
But, is there anything factually wrong with the numbers? Bender was brought up above and in another thread aswell. I have no idea what his status is with regards to his salary as I didn't really read much about him and his situation after I read he would stop.
Bender is off the cap, as is Reggie.

Anthem
05-06-2006, 03:37 PM
I think a better bet than trying to get under the cap is trading away some of those expiring contracts (Crosh and Bender). Along with Peja and SJax, probably the only assets we really have unless we're willing to totally blow the team up (trade JO).
Agreed. Although Bender's not tradable if he's already put in his retirement papers.

Ive been wondering if that's why we haven't heard anything yet. Because he's officially still a player, we can use his expiring contract in trades this summer.

Mourning
05-06-2006, 03:48 PM
Bender is off the cap, as is Reggie.

Thx! :) And, yes, I agree it doesn't sound THAT unlikely like you and bulldog mentioned that his contract could be used this summer for a team wanting to make a splash in the summer of 2007.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Will Galen
05-06-2006, 05:23 PM
2006-07 Pacer Player salaries

JO..................................18,067,500.... . signed for 3 more years
Cro..................................9,560,000.... . last year
Peja................................8,225,000..... has player option. Will opt and sign new contract. Still on the books until he opts out.

Bender............................7,810,000..... last year. Will probably not count against cap do to medical reasons.

Pollard............................0
Reggie............................0
Jackson..........................6,120,000.......t hree more years
Tinsley............................5,850,000...... .four more years
Foster.............................5,225,000...... .two more years
Sarunas..........................4,000,000.......o ne more year
Johnson..........................2,640,000.......o ne more year
Jones..............................3,239,420...... .restricted free agent. his salary is a qualifying offer, but the Pacers don't have to make it.

Granger...........................1,417,800....... three more years, the last a qualifying offer.
Gill..................................0
Harrison...........................739,080........ .two more years, the last a qualifying offer.
TOTAL.............................69,654,380

Peja, Bender, and Jones could all come off. That would put us at $50,379,960, or under the cap.

We will probably never actually get under the cap due to Benders contract. Whether it actually comes off ,and when, depends on the NBA.

able
05-06-2006, 05:42 PM
1: Peja opts out, so cross that one off.
2: JB does not only not count against the cap next year, nor are the P's liable for his salary, insurance.
3: Jones is FA, restricted or not, he does not (yet) count against next years cap
4: Total salary at THIS moment for next year is 53,619,380

please bare in mind that:

This is based on 9 signed players
If we are to re-sign Peja add approx 8,500.000
Fred 3,000,000
Polly 2,000,000

that makes 12 man and we are at 67 million, add a 1.4 million draft-pick and we are back at 69 mio which will likely be the lux tax max, so count on some "interesting" trades that lower that and a signing or two for min rookies.

we will probably run the season with about 67 million in salary, perhaps a bit more.

Will Galen
05-06-2006, 06:25 PM
1: Peja opts out, so cross that one off.
2: JB does not only not count against the cap next year, nor are the P's liable for his salary, insurance.
3: Jones is FA, restricted or not, he does not (yet) count against next years cap
4: Total salary at THIS moment for next year is 53,619,380



The way you are stating things confuses.

1 and 4 are incompatable. Peja hasn't opted out yet so 4 can't be right.

What's your source for your statements on JB.

8.9_seconds
05-06-2006, 06:41 PM
And despite the fact that the Pacers owe Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender a combined $17.3 million next season, that will be the final years of both their contracts. Croshere and Bender have been sore spots for a long time and Indiana will not be sad to see them go. Better yet, both of their contracts will be valuable trade assets heading into next season.


:growl:
Assh*les.

Mourning
05-06-2006, 07:35 PM
:growl:
Assh*les.

No, true.

8.9_seconds
05-06-2006, 07:39 PM
No, true.


Can we agree on ungrateful?

Alot of the players on this list,including Austin, have contributed hugely to this team and have been, if you will, 'shat' on.

Mourning
05-06-2006, 07:49 PM
Yeah, ehmm... he contributes and does nice things for the team and has decent value, but somehow that $ 9,560,000 just doesn't seem anywhere NEAR appropriate for what he is bringing.

8.9_seconds
05-06-2006, 07:55 PM
Yeah, ehmm... he contributes and does nice things for the team and has decent value, but somehow that $ 9,560,000 just doesn't seem anywhere NEAR appropriate for what he is bringing.


Well, agreed on that. I will say, however, that I think that he could contribute like he was expected, but unfortunate things happen to him.

I wasn't really talking about him totally though. I meant players like AJ, Scot, Austin, David at times, and a few others.

Anthem
05-06-2006, 08:42 PM
Well, agreed on that. I will say, however, that I think that he could contribute like he was expected, but unfortunate things happen to him.
Yeah, if by "unfortunate things" you mean "hasn't added a single thing to his game in the last six years."

Name one area in which he's better on the court than he was when he signed his contract. ONE.

Will Galen
05-06-2006, 09:27 PM
Yeah, if by "unfortunate things" you mean "hasn't added a single thing to his game in the last six years."

Name one area in which he's better on the court than he was when he signed his contract. ONE.

Talk about hanging yourself out there! Gladly!

How about FG%.

How about 3P%.

How about FT%.

How about rebounds.

How about Assists.

How about less TO.

How about less PF.

Anthem
05-06-2006, 10:02 PM
Talk about hanging yourself out there! Gladly!
You're too kind. :flirt:

What I asked, though, was different. Is there a single thing he's added to his game in the last 6 years? He's never added a post move (instead, his one solid post move has shriveled up and wasted away). He's never added a mid-range jumper. He's never added a pull-up jumper. At this point in his career, he either dunks or shoots a three. That's not ideal for anybody, let alone a power forward.

----

EDIT: And FWIW, his rebounding numbers aren't up, they're down from 6 years ago (from 6.4 rpg to 5.3 rpg). And it's hard to get excited about raising his APG from 1.1 to 1.2, or dropping his TPG from 2.5 to 2.1. Even his minutes are down from 6 years ago! Carlisle, the coach that loves him, plays him only 23 mpg. Heck, Zeke played him more than that!

Bottom line is he's still the same player he was before he signed his contract, and we all expected him to improve.

Peck
05-06-2006, 10:41 PM
You're too kind. :flirt:

What I asked, though, was different. Is there a single thing he's added to his game in the last 6 years? He's never added a post move (instead, his one solid post move has shriveled up and wasted away). He's never added a mid-range jumper. He's never added a pull-up jumper. At this point in his career, he either dunks or shoots a three. That's not ideal for anybody, let alone a power forward.

----

EDIT: And FWIW, his rebounding numbers aren't up, they're down from 6 years ago (from 6.4 rpg to 5.3 rpg). And it's hard to get excited about raising his APG from 1.1 to 1.2, or dropping his TPG from 2.5 to 2.1. Even his minutes are down from 6 years ago! Carlisle, the coach that loves him, plays him only 23 mpg. Heck, Zeke played him more than that!

Bottom line is he's still the same player he was before he signed his contract, and we all expected him to improve.


The only thing I think he has added since his contract is more of an ability to guard the post. Now don't faint on me, I'm not saying he is a good post defender. But he is better than he was 6 years ago at doing this.

Kegboy
05-06-2006, 10:58 PM
Remember the big deal made last year when Austin "added" a mid-range jumper to his vast repertoire? I think all the concussions made him forget. :(

Anthem
05-06-2006, 11:15 PM
The only thing I think he has added since his contract is more of an ability to guard the post. Now don't faint on me, I'm not saying he is a good post defender. But he is better than he was 6 years ago at doing this.
Ok, I could see that. But then, six years ago he still considered himself a small forward. :flirt:

8.9_seconds
05-07-2006, 01:36 AM
Ok, I could see that. But then, six years ago he still considered himself a small forward. :flirt:


Haha, Anthem,you b*stard, you just refuse to lose,don't you?

I'll say this Austin earned his contract when he first go it. Is it his fault that he was given so much money? If you were offered 9 mil a year, would you refuse? The answers to both are no. No, I don't think that Austin turned out to be the guy they thought he would be. Do I think that over his career here that he has contributed alot? Yes, and that goes farther than stats. It comes with reliability on the floor that when he's in he'll give his best. When the team is sucking it up, Austin will still be fighting. He doesn't complain about minutes, he doesn't try to be a superstar, and he never claims to be the savior of the team. Maybe his fatal flaw is that. Maybe if he wanted to unquestionably take a shot a JO's job, he could have. Maybe the problem is that he know he has to be that guy, the guy who keeps his head all the team. Cro has contributed so much; much more than Stephen Jackson, Ron Artest, or even JO could ever think of.

Is he ever going to be worth all of that money? No. Does he deserve it, maybe.

Will Galen
05-07-2006, 01:45 AM
[QUOTE=Anthem]You're too kind. :flirt:

What I asked, though, was different. Is there a single thing he's added to his game in the last 6 years?

Nice try at moving the goal posts. This is what you asked, quote; "Name one area in which he's better on the court than he was when he signed his contract. ONE."

EDIT: And FWIW, his rebounding numbers aren't up, they're down from 6 years ago (from 6.4 rpg to 5.3 rpg).

Another attempt at trying to move the goal posts. I'm holding you to your statement. You said nothing about career highs. I know I'm splitting hairs, but you specified ONE thing he was better at WHEN he signed his contract. He didn't have those rebound numbers WHEN he signed his contract.

What I'm saying is the facts don't support your orginal criteria. Now you can split your own hairs if you want to, but he is a better shooter than he was then. I believe being a better shooter is ONE thing.

Now I admit I agree with what you are saying in princible. I'm just giving you a hard time about your choice of wording. (giggle)

I wanted to see if you would argue or restate your case. You asked for one thing and I gave you seven yet you chose to argue.

Peck
05-07-2006, 03:51 AM
Ok, I could see that. But then, six years ago he still considered himself a small forward. :flirt:

Actually 6 years ago Isiah Thomas thought he was a small forward. Remember when he came in during the Bird years he came in with Sam.

Jalen, Mckey or Mullin would be playing the small forward spot.

That is really the basis of where you & I have always disagreed. You believe Isiah gave him a shot & I think he threw him to the wolves at a new position.

He was never fast enough or athletic enough to play the 3 spot except for emergency duty. It would be like being mad at Reggie because he couldn't play the point guard spot just because he is a guard.

But I also see your point as well, so who the hell knows.

able
05-07-2006, 06:56 AM
Jose, sorry to take this long to answer, life....

1: Peja WILL opt out, he has stated that and so has his agent, the doubt there was earlier on was taken away when he said he would definitely opt-out. Waiting for a confirmation from him or PSE is silly, we are discussing the payroll for next year, at this moment, and neither Peja nor PSE are going to send us a memo saying he opted out, his statements in the press should suffice.
2: JB Assuming the paperwork was filed in time the CBA is quite clear on this, the only thing standing in the way is if he is NOT injured severely enough and the independent NBA doctors decide he is not "permanently injured" which in all likelyhood is not even a topic.
The insurance is a definite assumption, but if they haven't insured him then I guess DW and LB will have to suffer a pay-cut to make up for the loss.

I fail to see however why you would pick on these items that are common knowledge and factual as is, just because we have no "confirmation in writing" (though Conrad writing he will opt-out is a good measuring stick) and the "waiting for the league" on the JB matter (do you think PSE would ever announce anything on that?) which can take (in accordance with the CBA) to the middle of next season to be definitive are not exactly points that are of real importance at this moment.

The far more important conclusion is how much we have to spend and what we are going to do with it.

Anthem
05-07-2006, 08:47 AM
EDIT: And FWIW, his rebounding numbers aren't up, they're down from 6 years ago (from 6.4 rpg to 5.3 rpg).

Another attempt at trying to move the goal posts. I'm holding you to your statement. You said nothing about career highs. I know I'm splitting hairs, but you specified ONE thing he was better at WHEN he signed his contract. He didn't have those rebound numbers WHEN he signed his contract.
Hey, I'll admit you got me on being unclear. So that was my fault. But in 99-00, which was the season that won him his contract, he averaged 6.4 rebounds per game. He's never gotten close to that since then.

Anthem
05-07-2006, 08:51 AM
Actually 6 years ago Isiah Thomas thought he was a small forward. Remember when he came in during the Bird years he came in with Sam.

Jalen, Mckey or Mullin would be playing the small forward spot.

That is really the basis of where you & I have always disagreed. You believe Isiah gave him a shot & I think he threw him to the wolves at a new position.
And I always break out quotes from Austin and others that show the entire team thought of Austin as a SF and Jeff as a PF. But we've been over it a billion times and it ain't gonna change now. Plus, Isiah did play him a lot as the backup PF, but Austin still sucked it up and played his way out of the rotation. Kind of like Sarunas. :devil:

Regardless, I think we can both agree that it's frustrating that he's never come close to rebounding the ball like he did the year he won his contract. I don't ask for perfection, I just ask for improvement. Is that so much to ask?