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Sollozzo
05-05-2006, 01:51 PM
Jermaine O'Neal will never lead this team to the promise land on his own shoulders?

He averaged only 21 points in 6 games, and thats with a monster 37 point game. He averaged just 7.5 rebounds, and thats with what, 15 in game 3? He looks pretty soft at times. Dale Davis wouldn't have let Carter dunk on him in game 5. You foul Carter hard and make him beat you at the free throw line.

He can't elevate his game in the playoffs. He is a very good player, but he isn't a player that can elevate you in a playoff series. His figures stay the same. He is unable to rise up to the challenge. What we saw this series was typical Jermaine O'Neal, one monster game and 5 average performances. It was DejaVu of 2002 all over again. He had a monster game 1 that year, talked trash, and KMART had him locked up the rest of the series.

He is not worth the contract he is getting. I understand the Pacers had to offer him that. One penny less than the max, and he bolts. It was the right move. But he hasn't proven himself to be worth that at all.

This isn't a thread to talk about trading O'Neal. I agree with what others have posted that you don't trade him for the sake of trading him, but only if you can get a better combination in return.

I want to know this. Is there anyone out there who still has confidence in O'Neal to lead this team far someday?

We hear it from O'Neal every year. All the stuff about how he wants to win a title for the city and the fans. It used to be how he wanted to win one for Reggie.

bulletproof
05-05-2006, 01:55 PM
I think when JO has the right players around him he is an exceptional piece to the puzzle. With no one to stretch the floor, he's marginalized. And we need an enforcer down low (a Dale Davis type). Jermaine's a finesse player.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 01:59 PM
He also needs a physical defensive minded small forward who can also post up and help J.O shoulder some of the offensive load

Sollozzo
05-05-2006, 02:04 PM
I think when JO has the right players around him he is an exceptional piece to the puzzle. With no one to stretch the floor, he's marginalized. And we need an enforcer down low (a Dale Davis type). Jermaine's a finesse player.



I agree.

He's a very good player. But I think it stops there. He's a finesse player, but not a player you can count on to win you a big game.

What we all hoped for when he was signed to that contract 3 years ago, was that he would take his game to the next level and become a true superstar. He was 25 when that season started, and we thought we'd see alot more from him. He really is the same player that he was in 2003.

JO has to have the right players around him, that's the problem. He can't really make anyone else around him better.

As time goes on, the support for him from the forum decreases.

Bball
05-05-2006, 02:55 PM
He is not worth the contract he is getting. I understand the Pacers had to offer him that. One penny less than the max, and he bolts. It was the right move. But he hasn't proven himself to be worth that at all.
.

I've been wondering what would've happened if we didn't immediately put JO into the position that we did when we got him. What if we'd brought in a veteran player to take some of JO's minutes? Does that slow his development down? Did we rush him along?

And what if we would've told Reggie "No Reggie the Deferrer! You're still our guy"? (Of course the deferring to Jalen factor comes in here as well).

Do we end up putting JO into position to get that max contract? Does he have the leverage we ended up handing him on a silver platter? What were other teams willing to offer in the first place... did we HAVE to 'max' him?

Of course if Walsh hadn't decided to not commit to the team in '99, had not panicked and thought the run was finished (which was obviously a mistake), and had not started his rebuilding process (and not wasted a #5 pick on Bender)- would we be any worse than we are right now? Would we still have had 3 straight 1st round exits? Is it not hard to imagine we could've made the ECF's 1 more time... if not the finals?

Our problems now go back to the idea that you break up a contender to build a contender. It isn't that easy... IMHO you tweak and ride the horse to the end of it's run. Maybe Walsh started believing the hype a little too much and thought he did have a golden touch.

Walsh is a great guy to get you solid... but he's not the guy to get a team to the next level. After 20 years this should start to be clear.



-Bball

jcouts
05-05-2006, 03:00 PM
I've been wondering what would've happened if we didn't immediately put JO into the position that we did when we got him. What if we'd brought in a veteran player to take some of JO's minutes? Does that slow his development down? Did we rush him along?

-Bball

JO had that in Portland for 2-3 years behind Sheed and Robinson.

waxman
05-05-2006, 03:04 PM
He also needs a physical defensive minded small forward who can also post up and help J.O shoulder some of the offensive load

hmmm....who could you possibly be referring to.... mmmmmmmARTESTICLE!





Sounds like all JO needs is

JKidd @ PG
R.Allen @ SG
R.Artest @ SF
Shaq or at least Kaman @ C

yeah thats do-able.

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 03:05 PM
He also needs a physical defensive minded small forward who can also post up and help J.O shoulder some of the offensive load

Too bad the only one of those I know of is PSYCHO!!

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 03:07 PM
JO is a post player. He's not a ballhandler. Of course, he can't do it on his own.

Neither could Kareem, he needed Oscar or Magic.

Wilt could barely do it on his own.

Shaq couldn't really do it on his own.

And JO's awfully good, but those are three of the best post players of all time. And they needed help. Lighten up, its a team game.

Some of you have really misguided definition of "franchise player" - especially for a guy that plays in the post.

Bball
05-05-2006, 03:07 PM
JO had that in Portland for 2-3 years behind Sheed and Robinson.

Altho neither is in Portland any longer, it's clear why they went with those people over JO. If games are any indication, they must've owned him in practice.

I've long said Portland knew what they were doing when they traded JO. I don't think DW put anything over on them. That doesn't mean they didn't see potential in JO (or not), it simply means they had better players in front of him and were trying to win in the present... not down the road.

-Bball

DisplacedKnick
05-05-2006, 03:32 PM
If I'm a Pacers fan I'm more encouraged by what JO did - or tried to do - in these playoffs than I've been since I've watched him.

Granted, his rebound numbers weren't that good but on offense he really wanted the ball - but A) his teammates weren't worth a crap getting it to him and b) nobody did anything the entire series to get him any space to work with.

If you had someone who could hit an outside shot and stretch the defense JO averages close to 30 this series IMO - and you win it. I'm amazed he could average 21 with constant double and triple teaming every time he touched the ball within 15 feet of the basket.

Was he good enough to hoist the team completely on his back? Nope - but nobody in the NBA is. He did pretty well with the hand he was dealt.

I'd be worried about him based on his durability but I sure wouldn't worry about him based on his play in this series.

SoupIsGood
05-05-2006, 03:58 PM
If I'm a Pacers fan I'm more encouraged by what JO did - or tried to do - in these playoffs than I've been since I've watched him.

Granted, his rebound numbers weren't that good but on offense he really wanted the ball - but A) his teammates weren't worth a crap getting it to him and b) nobody did anything the entire series to get him any space to work with.

If you had someone who could hit an outside shot and stretch the defense JO averages close to 30 this series IMO - and you win it. I'm amazed he could average 21 with constant double and triple teaming every time he touched the ball within 15 feet of the basket.

Was he good enough to hoist the team completely on his back? Nope - but nobody in the NBA is. He did pretty well with the hand he was dealt.

I'd be worried about him based on his durability but I sure wouldn't worry about him based on his play in this series.


Excellent take! I agree.

denyfizle
05-05-2006, 04:41 PM
yea, and the only person i know that's more arrogant than JO is that guy in LA. this year really unravelled alot about our supposed team leader-most obvious is that he can't and shouldn't be.

Moses
05-05-2006, 04:50 PM
He also needs a physical defensive minded small forward who can also post up and help J.O shoulder some of the offensive load
Bonzi Wells anyone?

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 04:52 PM
Check that...

Too bad the only two of those I know of are PSYCHO!!

Since86
05-05-2006, 04:54 PM
Bonzi Wells anyone?

That would be inviting more problems.

He's got WAY WAY WAY too much baggage to be this close to home. Hell, when he was drafted by Det., people (who where in the know) were saying that was too close.

Young
05-05-2006, 05:00 PM
JO could be a big part of the Pacers winning a championship but this team has to be nearly flawless in every asspect.

We need to get some chemistry on offense, some quicker guards who can defend, and a big man who is more physical and durable than Jeff and Scot.

bulletproof
05-05-2006, 05:49 PM
Of course if Walsh hadn't decided to not commit to the team in '99, had not panicked and thought the run was finished (which was obviously a mistake), and had not started his rebuilding process (and not wasted a #5 pick on Bender)- would we be any worse than we are right now? Would we still have had 3 straight 1st round exits? Is it not hard to imagine we could've made the ECF's 1 more time... if not the finals?

Our problems now go back to the idea that you break up a contender to build a contender. It isn't that easy... IMHO you tweak and ride the horse to the end of it's run. Maybe Walsh started believing the hype a little too much and thought he did have a golden touch.

Walsh is a great guy to get you solid... but he's not the guy to get a team to the next level. After 20 years this should start to be clear.
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD302/OS40024.JPG




I've concluded that you must be the illegitimate son that Donnie gave up for adoption.

Mourning
05-05-2006, 05:56 PM
If I'm a Pacers fan I'm more encouraged by what JO did - or tried to do - in these playoffs than I've been since I've watched him.

Granted, his rebound numbers weren't that good but on offense he really wanted the ball - but A) his teammates weren't worth a crap getting it to him and b) nobody did anything the entire series to get him any space to work with.

If you had someone who could hit an outside shot and stretch the defense JO averages close to 30 this series IMO - and you win it. I'm amazed he could average 21 with constant double and triple teaming every time he touched the ball within 15 feet of the basket.

Was he good enough to hoist the team completely on his back? Nope - but nobody in the NBA is. He did pretty well with the hand he was dealt.

I'd be worried about him based on his durability but I sure wouldn't worry about him based on his play in this series.

I think this is a fair assesment. And so is the one Jay made previously in this thread. I AM bothered by the lack of rebounding of JO in this series though. Maybe he didn't recover enough from that injury for that, I don't know.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
05-05-2006, 05:57 PM
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD302/OS40024.JPG




I've concluded that you must be the illegitimate son that Donnie gave up for adoption.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

8.9_seconds
05-05-2006, 07:55 PM
I miss Dale....

Sollozzo
05-06-2006, 02:41 AM
JO is a post player. He's not a ballhandler. Of course, he can't do it on his own.

Neither could Kareem, he needed Oscar or Magic.

Wilt could barely do it on his own.

Shaq couldn't really do it on his own.

And JO's awfully good, but those are three of the best post players of all time. And they needed help. Lighten up, its a team game.

Some of you have really misguided definition of "franchise player" - especially for a guy that plays in the post.


Of course its a "team game", but a team reflects its best player. The difference between the players you listed and Jermaine O'Neal is that all of those players made guys around them better. Can that be said about JO? JO has to have a team catered to his needs to be successful. It's no coincidence that teammates of Shaquille O'Neal tend to have their best years when they play alongside him.

JO is open to this criticism because of the money he makes. He hasn't elevated his game any since he signed that deal. His rebounds have gone down. He's a very good player, but I think most fans thought he would become a player who could put a team on his back come playoff time. Even with a team catered to his needs, I'm not sure he could do that.

Peck
05-06-2006, 03:48 AM
He also needs a physical defensive minded small forward who can also post up and help J.O shoulder some of the offensive load


Since you said also in your post I won't even try & argue with you.

I just want to make you sick to your stomach so that way you can join me whenever I think about this.

Could you imagine what we could have been like if the team decided to re-sign Dale instead of going after Saras?

A frontline of Dale, Jermaine & Ron with Jeff/Austin, Danny & David coming off of the bench. :(

Why do TPTB value strong post players so little?:(

I'm not saying that Ron wouldn't have still gone Ron but I just have a feeling that Dale could have helped control him & if not we still would have had Dale, Jermaine & Danny. sigh