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View Full Version : Carlisle Has To Go.... And Other things.. My Quick Thoughts



Bball
05-05-2006, 01:31 PM
There's a large and growing question mark about JO. IMHO we have to change the coach in order to see just how fundamentally flawed we are at the core of the team. If under a new system JO can't flourish, if he's peaked, if he suffers another series of injuries... then we are screwed and a LONG uphill battle will continue.

OTOH, to keep JO and Carlisle, and this system... is simply going to make JO's trade value plummet and the question marks continue. And the losses mounting. We cannot continue using JO in the same way. And that means we need a new coach in here. And he needs a clear vision from management (or to present a clear vision to management of how he wants an NBA team playing). The coach and management need to be on the same page and the players either need to buy into it or be shipped off.

I have no problem seeing the two-headed monster in management become one. I'm open to giving Bird his chance to operate unencumbered by the past ways... I'm not sure how much of this debacle is actually his fault. We did a lot of things 'half-way' almost as if it was a compromise. IE: We get a FA (Sarunas) and overload a position on the team (PG) and then leave it clogged with 4 PG's and a coach that seems to be the opposite of anything Sarunas needs.

If the Simons want to step in here and force and end to the two-headed monster in either direction then I'd be all for it.

Whatever you think of Sarunas, it's clear he would never succeed under Carlisle.

This team had a nice run with Peja and Sjax as our main guns in a more free-flowing but disciplined style. But Carlisle's comments telegraphed how much he didn't like (or was concerned with) that style. Sarunas was more successful, Harrison started becoming a factor. But... Sure enough, by the time JO was returning we'd went back to Carlisle Ball and this thing dissolved right back into the mess we thought we'd just pulled out of. Again, there's the question mark about JO... and there's the question mark about coaching and getting the best out of this team. 2 years in a row, when forced to go away from "JO Ball" we found some of our best and most consistent ball of the season. That folks is more than a coincidence.

It's quite possible JO and Carlisle are both problems. Changing the coach is the easiest thing to do there. And you don't want to miss the boat on JO if being misused is the problem. OTOH, coming to terms with whether JO is or is not something less than what we need (and pay for) needs to be figured out ASAP.

We need to see JO in a new system, with a coach without any double-standards... and JO needs to be ready to accept a 'lesser' role if that is what is needed for the good of the team.

And no more whining to the refs... If there is one clear sign that Carlisle lost this team it is how he finally just threw up his hands and let that stuff just get out of control. I don't see how Sjax can come back. I don't see why anyone would want Tinsley back ("injured, malcontent" isn't exactly a resume booster). I'm nor sure where I stand on the Peja situation. He sure looked good without JO...

'Carlisle' is simply the answer to the first thing management needs to do. But his name is not the answer to the last thing management needs to do.

-Bball

Knucklehead Warrior
05-05-2006, 01:48 PM
I'm not willing to spend another year waiting to see if jermO can do it. IMO either he's OK the way his is or he's not, no coach is going to make that any different. Now if you're talking about bringing in another player to help free up jermO's game, then yeah maybe a good big man or a Peja or a new 2 can do that.

Saras played his way out of the rotation. He still has a chance to produce, but if a coaching change means we see the same old defense, lack of ball control, and whining, then deal him. That's not RC's fault.

The style change we witnessed toward the end of the season also came with its losses and its turnovers. With jermO in the mix, it may still be viable. I didn't see the return to JOball when he returned; I saw him adjust to a freer flowing system and pass the ball out of the paint. I also saw what a good consistent outside shooter can do for his game.

naptownmenace
05-05-2006, 02:27 PM
I'm not willing to spend another year waiting to see if jermO can do it. IMO either he's OK the way his is or he's not, no coach is going to make that any different. Now if you're talking about bringing in another player to help free up jermO's game, then yeah maybe a good big man or a Peja or a new 2 can do that.

Saras played his way out of the rotation. He still has a chance to produce, but if a coaching change means we see the same old defense, lack of ball control, and whining, then deal him. That's not RC's fault.

The style change we witnessed toward the end of the season also came with its losses and its turnovers. With jermO in the mix, it may still be viable. I didn't see the return to JOball when he returned; I saw him adjust to a freer flowing system and pass the ball out of the paint. I also saw what a good consistent outside shooter can do for his game.

Knucklehead Warrior is right.

Bball... not so much.


I think these players are flawed, moreso than the coach not being able to pull them together. I think Rick got the most out this fragile bunch of slackers that any coach could.

If anyone needs firing it's the strength and conditioning coach, trainers, and maybe one or more of the assistant coaches. Bird should and DW should be on the hotseat too for several of their less than stellar personnel decisions over the past 3 seasons.

Bball
05-05-2006, 02:36 PM
Saras played his way out of the rotation. He still has a chance to produce, but if a coaching change means we see the same old defense, lack of ball control, and whining, then deal him. That's not RC's fault.
.

I'd disagree that Sarunas played himself out of the lineup. What I saw was Carlisle made room for JT's return as a starter by benching Sarunas and moving AJ to the second unit. What Sarunas did was fail to truly play his way back into the lineup once JT was benched or injured or whatever set of circumstances were that saw him once again be unable to play.

If you are saying WYSIWYG with JO (regardless of the coach or system) then we have to move him yesterday before his value goes any lower (I don't think it's necessarily sinking much now, but it would in that case). If that's all there is, let alone if some of these 'inside stories' and rumors are even partially true... he has to go. I'd be willing to give him a chance in a different system but there are some flaws to his game that just seem to be recurring. I'd hope in the new system, with a different coach, maybe we get that 'lightbulb' game where he starts to 'get it'.

Of course if a different coach and system still gets us the same old JO, then I imagine his value does plummet. There'd be no "Rick Carlisle excuse" to hid behind.


-Bball

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 02:58 PM
I don't think JO is WYSIWYG.

Of course, I've always thought that what we call "JO Ball" was Rick's preference, not JO's.

Rick *thinks* he maximizing the team's talents, but he's not even using his best player correctly.

JO needs to lose 10-15 pounds (back to 245-250) and prepare to play quicker, but still with his back to the basket. He needs to be more agile.

But I'd like to see JO and Tinsley under a new coach before I'm ready to ship them out.

I'm close... don't get me wrong...

DisplacedKnick
05-05-2006, 03:27 PM
I don't see a problem with the system myself - I see where the Pacers don't have the players to implement Carlisle's system - part of that is their physical abilities and part is mental.

IMO you need a new coach because at least several - and maybe most - of the players don't want to play for him. But the system isn't bad IMO. It may be dull and boring but dull and boring has won the last 2 NBA titles.

Jose Slaughter
05-05-2006, 03:27 PM
Bball

You are the reason I post much less & read much more. Another fine post.

Some of you can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the best coaches learn the strengths of their players & then design an offense & defense around those strengths.

I posted an article from one of the Orlando papers earlier in the year about Brian Hill's effort to do this with his young Magic roster. It takes time but I feel in the long run the results are much better.

Pacersfan.
05-05-2006, 03:38 PM
I really feel JO would be much better player in a better offensive system. Rick is a good coach, but we really need a new offensive approach. Everyone always says that a faster more fun offensive approach doesn't win ballgames. Well, the Spurs last year and the Pistons this year have won plenty of games and their offense is pretty fast (compared to ours) and fun.

shockedandchagrined
05-05-2006, 03:49 PM
JO needs to lose 10-15 pounds (back to 245-250) and prepare to play quicker, but still with his back to the basket. He needs to be more agile.



I agree with this. I'm not sure how much weight he needs to lose, but I do think he needs to be quicker and capable of being more explosive. Also, if he's going to spend time in the weight room, he needs to spend more time developing lower body or core strength, and less time on the 'guns'.

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 04:02 PM
Some of you can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the best coaches learn the strengths of their players & then design an offense & defense around those strengths.

I thought Rick was excellent at this his first season. Remember, that team wasn't really *that much* like Rick's Detroit teams. And the popular convention was that he'd try to turn this team into his Piston teams.

He's somewhat flexible.

But he seems to have misread this year's team. Badly.

btowncolt
05-05-2006, 04:07 PM
But he seems to have misread this year's team. Badly.

Given that this team is full of completely immature doushebags, I really wouldn't want a coach who would be the kind of human being that "reads" this team well.

Anthem
05-05-2006, 04:21 PM
I don't think JO is WYSIWYG.

Of course, I've always thought that what we call "JO Ball" was Rick's preference, not JO's.

Rick *thinks* he maximizing the team's talents, but he's not even using his best player correctly.
I could be sympathetic to this view. JO has shown in his time back that he's able to pass... I always used to question that part of his game, but no more.

I think he could be the best player on a championship-caliber team... I just don't think he'd be the best player on a superstar-led team. I don't want to give too much Piston love, but if JO was part of a team like that I think he'd be very successful. The problem is putting him in a situation where he's expected to be the superstar.

DisplacedKnick
05-05-2006, 05:25 PM
Some of you can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the best coaches learn the strengths of their players & then design an offense & defense around those strengths.


Well, they should tweak it a little but most coaches have a system. Larry Brown frex - he uses the same basic system both on offense and defense wherever he goes. Philly was his biggest challenge and he changed more there to account for AI, but it was still pretty much the same system.