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View Full Version : A Traves-sham-mockery... 2006 and beyond



Doug in CO
05-05-2006, 09:47 AM
I can’t remember ever feeling this way after a season.

Usually I am depressed – sometimes angry – sometimes optimistic that our young team would take the next step the following year.

This year – I am at a loss as to how I feel – and frankly – where we are. I think we are farther from contender status than we have been in a long time. Maybe as long as the 80s – that may be an exaggeration.

I think that we have to hope that Bird and DW will be able to make changes that matter. This is as challenging an off season as they have ever had in my opinion – even more so than after 2000 Finals season. Mostly because our chips are limited. What we are left with from Brad Miller (mention dedicated to Hicks) and Ron Artest are 2 ex-Kings soon to be ex-Pacers. They will both leave. And frankly, after Peja showed a lack of ability to strap it on and play… I say good riddance. Poor decisions like taking Peja over Corey Maggette make me think that they are not up to the task. But if they prove me wrong, I am not so stubborn to eat crow (unlike some poster whose name may rhyme with stubborn goof).

I think the fact that our chips have limited value may force us – whether you are a Rick guy or not (I am not) to make a change. I think also the fact that he has alienated several players including free agent Peja makes me think his time has run out.

First – Fred Jones. I am so sick of him and his limited ability. His shot is suspect, and his decision making last night was even worse. He will be good on an up and down West coast team. Good riddance.

Now rumors were going yesterday about SJax – and the fact is, reported or not, he blew off practice in the morning. His emotions were running rampant (nothing new) and he did not show up when he read Kravitz... Whether he was pouting or whatever… the cover up is there, the Star is complicit, and it is what it is because we do not want to erode what little value he has… if any. He has a nice salary for several years… how many stiffs can the Knicks take? What the hell - call IT.

JO once again came up small in a big game. When Kidd beat him to that rebound and when Jefferson blocked his shot… well let’s just say I was not chanting MVP. BUT trading for him does not seem an option as we will not get equal value for him. Unless we think he is a cancer ala Artest, or we can get a stud like Garnett or god forbid a great 2 guard… he stays.

AJ had a great game – but without a decent 2 guard, we still have backcourt issues. AJ can stay the starter – but not without an upgrade at the 2.

Which brings me to Mr. Sinusitis. Who the frack is going to give us anything for Tinsley? Seriously? If we can get anything I would be all for it. I am skeptical.

I would like to keep Pollard for a small salary – but he will be gone and should be if Carlisle is still here. Our other center – Foster – well right now he is only slightly more reliable than Tinsley. Can we get the Spurs to trade for him since he plays so well there?

Croshere – he is probably a candidate for a trade deadline deal – salary cap guy to a team that is tanking the season. Keep him. Keep his leadership.

Harrison is a loooooooooong term project. Do we have the luxury of waiting on him? Dunno but I know I am running out of patience.

Granger is now my favorite Pacer – crazy, but a rookie is the one player other than AJ that really brought it last night. He is going to be special. He already is.

I think Saras is better suited to the West coast – but could be a good backup for us. He may be one of our few chips this off season – believe it or not.

Lots of random thoughts… like I said, it is hard for me to totally wrap up my feelings about where we are… because our team is so "Sybil." It does start with the coach – a decision needs to be made and made quickly on Rick.

Anthem
05-05-2006, 10:16 AM
I can’t remember ever feeling this way after a season.

Usually I am depressed – sometimes angry – sometimes optimistic that our young team would take the next step the following year.

This year – I am at a loss as to how I feel – and frankly – where we are.
Great post, but I especially resonated with this part. This is me.

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 10:18 AM
Don't agree with every single one of your player evaluations but that's a great summary.

We need to make changes in the front office, on the coaching staff, and to the roster.

There's a lot of work to be done. But first, IMO, the Simons need to pick somebody to do it. I'd pick Walsh over Bird.

But "management by committee" has been a floundering fiasco. We need one voice from management. The dysfunction starts at the top.

Doug in CO
05-05-2006, 10:28 AM
But "management by committee" has been a floundering fiasco. We need one voice from management. The dysfunction starts at the top.

I think they have disagreed on 2 key things this year:

a) Rick
b) who to trade Artest for - I believe DW's hiostory suggests his choice would have been a GS package or Maggette

Anthem
05-05-2006, 10:44 AM
I think they have disagreed on 2 key things this year:

a) Rick
b) who to trade Artest for - I believe DW's hiostory suggests his choice would have been a GS package or Maggette
Yup. Plus the offseason... signing Saras instead of Dale.

Walsh 3, Bird 0.

Peck
05-05-2006, 11:11 AM
Man there is so much meat in what Doug is saying.

I just don't have time this a.m. to get into all of this but needless to say this post kicks @ss.

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 11:14 AM
Here's who we know Bird wants on the team:

PG - Saras
SG - Ben Gordon
SF - Luke Jackson or Peja
PF - Peja ?
C - ??

Coached by: Rick Carlilse.

:suicide:

indygeezer
05-05-2006, 11:18 AM
Good article Doug.


I'll make two suggestions for the off-season (more later)

1) Fire Rick (hire Reggie....Oh I know he don't wanna, but make him anyway :devil: )

2) Hire Robert Parish as a big-man coach/assistant coach. I suggested this a loooooong time ago and I still stand by it.

Doug in CO
05-05-2006, 11:31 AM
[QUOTE=indygeezer]1) Fire Rick (hire Reggie....Oh I know he don't wanna, but make him anyway :devil: )
[QUOTE]

Or maybe a better choice - he was in the arena last night - Mark Jackson.

indygeezer
05-05-2006, 11:40 AM
[QUOTE=indygeezer]1) Fire Rick (hire Reggie....Oh I know he don't wanna, but make him anyway :devil: )
[QUOTE]

Or maybe a better choice - he was in the arena last night - Mark Jackson.


That too would be acceptable. (Uh...would he be trying to teach JO how to back his man down???)




edit....Why was MJ there, was he part of the the TV crew?

Doug in CO
05-05-2006, 11:42 AM
edit....Why was MJ there, was he part of the the TV crew?

He does the Nets games locally (ala Quin Buckner)

RWB
05-05-2006, 12:35 PM
1) Fire Rick (hire Reggie....Oh I know he don't wanna, but make him anyway :devil: )


I doubt Reg is ready to come back as a head coach, but I wouldn't be surprised he changes his mind about any kind of coaching. Nothing wrong with being an assistant for awhile. :)

microwave_oven
05-05-2006, 12:39 PM
Robert Parish is exactly what David Harrison needs. You don't not get better through the season because you aren't talented. And he obviously putin the work this off-season. He NEEDS a bigs coach and Parish would be a PERFECT pick-up.

Bball
05-05-2006, 12:57 PM
Yup. Plus the offseason... signing Saras instead of Dale.

Walsh 3, Bird 0.

Signing Saras... maybe... But I doubt Walsh was lobbying for Dale.

-Bball

naptownmenace
05-05-2006, 02:05 PM
Great post, Doug. Your player descriptions were absolutely perfect!

My keeper list is (in order of importance):

1. Granger - a no brainer.
2. AJ - showed more heart this season than any other player on the team.
3. JO - I really think he could work out here but he needs a consistent all-star beside him.
4. Croshere - If it weren't for the concussions, I really think he would've had an awesome season.


I'm on the fence about:

1. Harrison - he shows flashes but so did Bender. I'm not sold on him but not completely down on him either. If he could be the piece that gets us a decent player in a trade then so be it.

2. Saras - I don't think he'll reach his potential with Rick as head coach. Maybe he will though. The transition to the NBA is tough for every Euro and they usually are much better the 2nd season.


I think most know what I think of Tinsley - he should've been traded 3 seasons ago for Sam Cassell or Jason Terry when they both were available for peanuts... and you guys said he would be better than both of them. :crazy: I refuse to watch another Pacers game if Tinsley is still on the team come next season.

Fred Jones? Nice dunker, average defender, below average ball handler, streaky shooter, too short = a career backup SG. He can be replaced.

Stephen Jackson can't continue here. He's burnt out and the fans are tired of him. I still like his abilities but I can't deny that he doesn't always live up to them. I also can't deny that he took the hardest reputation hit from the brawl and that it's a little unfair. Good luck in Denver or wherever he winds up.

Jeff Foster is on the slide. Man that Brad Miller trade just keeps getting better and better each year doesn't it? Nuff' said.

I've never been this down on the Pacers but this was, by far, the most disappointing season in franchise history.

DisplacedKnick
05-05-2006, 03:16 PM
Jeff Foster is on the slide. Man that Brad Miller trade just keeps getting better and better each year doesn't it? Nuff' said.


I figure this a thread for Pacer fans and besides - ever since the last time NJ eliminated you in the 1st rd when I posted all my offseason suggestions the following day and Donnie went out and did the exact opposite of just about everything I posted (well, he did go out and get a big man - just to let him go again).

But I think this is important. Foster's close to being done. Everyone knows he fits in the "hustle player" category. Every team needs one. 3-4 years ago he was The Great Disrupter whenever he entered games - just generally messed up what the other team wanted to do. The problem is, when your hustle guys age they lose their usefullness. The general over/under is about 30.

Jeff will be 30 next season and he still has no readily definable skills. He hasn't developed a dependable jumper. He can't put the ball on the floor and go to the basket. He has no post game. He's a good rebounder but most of that's from effort. He isn't strong enough to be a true post defender and his quickness is going which takes away his ability to defend the more athletic guys.

It isn't over for him yet but his usefullness is on the way down. I love how he plays and wish the Pacers had been in a position the last few years where they could have used him as he should have been used - as a big man off the bench - but the Jeff Foster days are coming to a close.

Doug in CO
05-05-2006, 03:19 PM
Jeff has been in the league for 7 years and his career high is 19 points. He hasn't even hit the magical 2-0 on a lucky, en fuego night.

Enough said.

Since86
05-05-2006, 03:26 PM
Jeff has been in the league for 7 years and his career high is 19 points. He hasn't even hit the magical 2-0 on a lucky, en fuego night.

Enough said.

He's gotten to 19 in the first half of play, and can't manage to even get fouled while shooting in another 24mins.

A-Train
05-05-2006, 03:32 PM
Jeff has been in the league for 7 years and his career high is 19 points. He hasn't even hit the magical 2-0 on a lucky, en fuego night.

Enough said.

Wow, I didn't realize that.

Foster is great as a sixth or seventh man off the bench to wreak havoc, but he's the completely wrong person to play alongside Jermaine. As has been said about a trillion times here already, JO needs a big body next to him, not a slender hustle guy with no offensive game.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 03:58 PM
I think you are a little harsh on Freddie and certainly on Foster. Comparing Jeff to Jamaal seems completely unfair. Fred had two very good games in this series without him we don't win game 1 and he was also very good in game 5 and pretty good in game 2. Maybe he just can't play at Conseco. If we can get him cheap I would have no problem signing him as the backup two guard

I find this all of a sudden ripping of Foster over the past week or so really disturbing. He is what he is and as I said last night, I hope he is coming off the bench next season, that will mean they have found a pretty good player as his position, and that won't be as easy as many of you think.

But Foster is what we need more of on this team. Effort, energy, heart, or have we forgotten

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 03:59 PM
No, we need more talent. Something Jeff lacks.

SoupIsGood
05-05-2006, 04:03 PM
I figure this a thread for Pacer fans and besides - ever since the last time NJ eliminated you in the 1st rd when I posted all my offseason suggestions the following day and Donnie went out and did the exact opposite of just about everything I posted (well, he did go out and get a big man - just to let him go again).

But I think this is important. Foster's close to being done. Everyone knows he fits in the "hustle player" category. Every team needs one. 3-4 years ago he was The Great Disrupter whenever he entered games - just generally messed up what the other team wanted to do. The problem is, when your hustle guys age they lose their usefullness. The general over/under is about 30.

Jeff will be 30 next season and he still has no readily definable skills. He hasn't developed a dependable jumper. He can't put the ball on the floor and go to the basket. He has no post game. He's a good rebounder but most of that's from effort. He isn't strong enough to be a true post defender and his quickness is going which takes away his ability to defend the more athletic guys.

It isn't over for him yet but his usefullness is on the way down. I love how he plays and wish the Pacers had been in a position the last few years where they could have used him as he should have been used - as a big man off the bench - but the Jeff Foster days are coming to a close.


Dude you are money in the bank when it comes to the offseason! I agree again.

He might be one of our better trading pieces.

SoupIsGood
05-05-2006, 04:04 PM
But Foster is what we need more of on this team.

We need MORE guys who lose their effectiveness come playoff time?

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 04:12 PM
We need MORE guys who lose their effectiveness come playoff time?



Who like Harrison.


Sorry that is the best I could come up with on short notice.

Jeff was injured this whole series but why were the Pacers beaten badly on the board in the only two games he did not play and in the games he did play the Pacers soundly beat the Nets in the rebounding dept.

SoupIsGood
05-05-2006, 04:15 PM
Who like Harrison.


Sorry that is the best I could come up with on short notice.



:-p

beast23
05-05-2006, 05:09 PM
No, we need more talent. Something Jeff lacks.Whoa, Nellie.... that's what got us into trouble in the first place. The Pacers started stockpiling talented players and moved away from ballers with character.

Pollard, bad back and all has a lot of what a team needs. He's got court smarts and gives you everthing he's got when he's on the floor.

But, wait. That's also a decent description of Foster, isn't it. Foster is one of the only players we have that can set a screen. He must have helped Rodman write the book on rebound positioning and awareness. And for a big man, he's not a bad defender of opposing big men, especially away from the basket.

Our rebuilding has to start somewhere. Although we have holes to fill, I believe Walsh/Bird will trade those players they perceive as bad influences or bad attitudes to try to acquire new players.

I somehow don't think Jeff is perceived as falling into that category.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 05:18 PM
Whoa, Nellie.... that's what got us into trouble in the first place. The Pacers started stockpiling talented players and moved away from ballers with character.

Pollard, bad back and all has a lot of what a team needs. He's got court smarts and gives you everthing he's got when he's on the floor.

But, wait. That's also a decent description of Foster, isn't it. Foster is one of the only players we have that can set a screen. He must have helped Rodman write the book on rebound positioning and awareness. And for a big man, he's not a bad defender of opposing big men, especially away from the basket.

Our rebuilding has to start somewhere. Although we have holes to fill, I believe Walsh/Bird will trade those players they perceive as bad influences or bad attitudes to try to acquire new players.

I somehow don't think Jeff is perceived as falling into that category.


Post of the year. Or at least close to it

Doug in CO
05-05-2006, 09:10 PM
I think you are a little harsh on Freddie and certainly on Foster.

I will back off Foster a lot faster tha Freddie - I think he is a one trick pony and that trick is getting - has gotten - old.

I feel like when he hits a three it is out of luck, not law of averages. His shot is as flat as an 8 year old's chest.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 09:19 PM
I will back off Foster a lot faster tha Freddie - I think he is a one trick pony and that rick is getting - has gotten - old.

I feel like when he hits a three it is out of luck, not law of averages. His shot is as flat as an 8 year old's chest.


I can't argue with you, but we are only talking about a backup shooting guard, and if we can pay him like a backup I still think he would be an asset to this team

Peck
05-05-2006, 11:28 PM
Ok, now I see where the Jeff issue was coming from that U.B. was talking about.

Let me put it this way in regards to Jeff.

He is a powerforward & can play a decent backup center.

What he is not & never has been is a starting caliber center.

When Pollard & Foster played together Jeff was outstanding. When Dale & Foster played together last season they were devistating to the opposition.

However, & I've said this for three years, he & J.O. are the worst combo of "big" men you could ask for.

Jeff just doesn't have the bulk to bang with the bigger centers & IMO they are coming back en vogue.

However as a super sub I think he could be great, but now you do have to wonder with all of the differant injurys starting to show up if maybe the wear & tear of the post isn't starting to get to him.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 11:32 PM
Peck, I hope Jeff isn't starting next season because that will mean the Pacers have acquired quite a player to take his spot.

Peck
05-05-2006, 11:33 PM
Peck, I hope Jeff isn't starting next season because that will mean the Pacers have acquired quite a player to take his spot.


Or maybe that person is already here.:-p

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 11:34 PM
Or maybe that person is already here.:-p


Oh my.

I didn't think you wanted Granger to play power forward.

Peck
05-05-2006, 11:53 PM
Oh my.

I didn't think you wanted Granger to play power forward.

touche'