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View Full Version : Scot Pollard is talking, is anybody listening????



Peck
05-05-2006, 04:25 AM
Over the years some of us have screamed from the mountain top that our local print press is as soft as charmin toilet tissue & that while there have been many of bad things happen behind closed doors they never report it. In fact they have gone out of thier way on a couple of occasions to not report it.

However lately that has all changed.

I give you a quote from today's star from Scot Pollard.

"It was (expletive) ridiculous this season," said Pacers center Scot Pollard, who is an unrestricted free agent. "I've never seen or been a part of a more messed-up situation in my career. It was a combination of a ton of things. If they were by themselves it wouldn't be a problem, but when they all hit there's nothing you can do about it."

Remember back early in the season people were trying to tell us that players didn't have to like each other & other garbage like that? Remember they used to always use Shaq & Kobe as the example.

But the more & more we hear & the more & more we see it must be self evident to everyone that teams are far more than just a collection of talent & that yes, having the same rules apply across the board to all players does matter (see Kravits comment about this in his article).

Now here comes the fun guessing part.

Who are they talking about? By who I mean A.J. when he talks about unprofessional conduct, I also mean the beat writers & on air personalities who talk about players playing for thier own stats & disinterested.

Just for the fun of it I am going to start to narrow down who I think it is.

Let's just eleminate some people right off of the bat.

Eddie Gill is nothing but the consumate pro's- pro sitting on the bench. Does anybody disagree with this?

Danny Granger is a rookie & has done nothing or shown nothing but being easy to deal with & appears to work on his game. Does anybody disagree with this?

Scot Pollard has answered the bell on every occasion he has been called upon. His min. go up & down & yes he is often injured but I don't think anybody would claim he was disinterested, padding his own stats or unprofessional. Does anybody disagree?

Jeff Foster just doesn't strike me as a person who would be any of the above. I think he may be part of the problem that J.O. doesn't like but that has nothing to do with Jeff's personality. Does anybody disagree?

Austin Croshere is the definition of a professional. Now I have a feeling that some players may not like him because he may be considered Larry's stooge or something but I doubt that he is involved in any of this. Does anybody disagree?

A.J. may have been part of the problem early in the year seeing as how he was demoted to third string for no reason. But the fact that he has not only come back from that but actually won the starting job tells me he is not in that group. Does anybody disagree?

Fred Jones. Although he was playing for a contract I don't feel as though he ever tried to pad his own stats nor did he have an I don't care attitude. He may have sucked at times but I don't see him adding to the culture as A.J. put it. Does anybody disagree?

Now it get's a little more tricky. These are the players who may fit the catagory but then may not.

Saras. Hard to put him in there however as I said early on, we are not the only people who read the internet. Some of his team mates may not have been thrilled with his comments about thier play. Some could say that he might have been trying to pad his own assist stats by doing risky passes instead of taking a solid shot, however getting an assist generally will not make you selfish, although I contend it can. I put him in the very low risk catagory, however I can't help but think he might have been in on some of this.

Peja. He was only here for a short time so I can't believe that over the course of a half a year he contributed much to this. However his sitting out the playoffs did not sit well with many people & I have noticed more & more of the local press actually coming out & questioning how hurt he was. We all have heard the rumors about him & Carlisle but who knows if it's true. I put him in the medium catagory, in other words there may be some fire to some of this smoke. Does anybody disagree?

Now we come to the prime suspects.

Jamaal Tinsley. Hmmmm... less than professional conduct? I don't know anything other than the one shoot around I saw & the storys of his (how can I say this politely) partying that I have heard but to me there is something less than a full blown professional there. Playing for his own stats? You have to play first so I won't go with that one. Dissinterested? This will be an argument for the ages I'm sure but, yes I believe he was less than 100% interested. So I will rank Jamaal as a very high risk of being a culperit in the culture. Does anybody disagree? (Oh I know they will & I know who you are);)

Stephen Jackson. I'm sure if A.J. could have made a poster for his culture statement it would look something like this.

http://usesoap.com/images/news/stephen_jackson.jpg

I'm not even going to bother making a case on this one as I'm sure there will be almost no one who at the very least wouldn't admit he contributed to the culture of this team. All I can do now is sit & :laugh: at Roaming Gnome from our last home game as he sit & tried to convince both me & himself that the team could keep Jackson. This after all season long booing him so loud he got dirty looks from the floor.


Anyway as to Jackson I rank him as high risk for the culture if not an aboslute does anybody disagree?

Now we will get a little sticky.

Jermain O'Neal. It's his team. He demanded it be his team from day one. Jalen Rose was traded because he would not bow to this being Jermaines team. Reggie from day one was making it a point to make it his team. So therefor if the team is a mess then how much blame does he get for the culture? IMO, a lot. Now before we go to far overboard here let's get one thing straight. J.O. could not control Ron Artest, nobody could. So while it sounds good in theory that he should have tried to get control over him early on, it just wasn't going to happen. So I give him a pass there. But does he play for his own stats? I don't know about this season but that has always been a big concern for me. Does he have his own agenda? I would hope not but who knows.

I am going to give J.O. a low end of high risk for being part of that culture. Does anybody disagree?

Rick Carlisle. Ground Zero, IMO. His double standards for players (again see Kravits article or if you want research an old post from me from early in the year when A.J. got a T for getting off of the court slowly & I covered then a little about how I felt there was a double standard) & his rigid structure have caused the culture that exist today. How many players now have we heard rumors of that either don't want to play for or in some cases refuse to play for Rick Carlisle. Does everybody remember Ron's rant when he wanted to leave? Sure he later sited that after the brawl he thought to many things happened here but remember his first complaint? That's right, it was that he didn't want to play for Rick Carlisle. So far the list of unconfirmed players that have said that are as follows. Jon Bender, Jamaal Tinsley, Peja & Saras.

His offense is no fun to watch, I'm certain that it is even less fun to play.

I rank Rick Carlisle as not only high but ultimately the root cause of the culture. Does anybody disagree? Ok, anybody that's name doesn't rhyme with dunkle cluck disagree?;)

NorCal_Pacerfan
05-05-2006, 04:39 AM
I'll tell you this, Donnie and Larry have their work cut out for 'em. It's got to be hard for them, because they probably aren't seeing everything from every angle. I would interview every single person, from Gill to Carlisle and absorb the feedback, mix it all up, sleep on it for a while, flush it out on paper, and then decide which branches are more dead, and then let the cutting begin. Who will be left on the Pacer tree come next season? Should be very interesting. I can predict this one thing, and that is that a lot of the posters on the board will be unsatisfied in one way or another.

Will Galen
05-05-2006, 06:02 AM
I pretty much agree with what Peck said. My thoughts are we need a new coach and a new backcourt, and someone to play center. I would also try and get rid of everyone that argues with the refs.

Hmmm I guess I would keep JO and Granger and go from there. As Norcal says above, Donnie and Larry have their work cut out for 'em.

D-BONE
05-05-2006, 06:27 AM
I would also try and get rid of everyone that argues with the refs.

Hmmm I guess I would keep JO and Granger and go from there.

JO doesn't argue with the refs?

As far as Peck's analysis, I would move JO up to at least mid-risk. Hey, if he's supposedly the leadership guy amongst the players, then he's gotta be held accountable (not for Ron) but after they did not respond to him either.

I pretty much see the rest of it as spot on.

owl
05-05-2006, 07:03 AM
You forgot the prime suspect. Ron Artest.


owl

owl
05-05-2006, 07:12 AM
Was there not something reported on this board about JO being on the
cell phone the entire time a video session? or somesuch was going on.
Apparently talking about business at his club. If that is true JO should
be one the people at the top of the list.


owl

ABADays
05-05-2006, 07:24 AM
When someone as laid back as Pollard is get pissed off - some ears should be perking up!

fwpacerfan
05-05-2006, 07:41 AM
Interesting stuff. I said it 3 months ago, I said it last month and I'll say it again - I keep AJ, Freddie, Granger, Foster, Croshere and Sarunas and put everyone else on the block INCLUDING the All Star. IMHO the All Star has not performed at a level expected of a superstar. O'Neal is not the kind of guy you can count on to be "The Man" at the end of games. He complains to the officials constantly and thus doesn't get the calls late in games (see last night). He doesn't exert himself to make sure he CONSISTENTLY gets deep post position. He thinks he can blow by everyone and posts them up 20 feet from the bucket but then settles for fadeaways that miss at least 65% of the time. The only way I keep O'Neal (assuming they will get good offers in trade) is if he has a full understanding that the only way to truly be the leader of this team is to EARN it. He was given the leadership role as soon as he put the number 7 on his back with this franchise and he has not earned it. He was outplayed during most this series by a 22 year old. JO is no longer a young guy - he is a veteran and he needs to play like one.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 08:15 AM
I think to suggest that Rick Carlisle is the root cause of the culture is laughable. He has forced the players to play selfishisly, to not play hard, to fake injuries, to get injured in the first place, to take bad shots, to hate their teammates, to hog the ball. Wow I got to tell you if he has that much control, then he is better than even I think, it is just too bad he didn't use his god like impact for good instead of evil.

OK, but if you believe that then fine, that makes this summer easier, fire the coach bring in who ever you want, keep the same players and we'll be championship contenders. The players will love each other and finally, oh finally a "fun offense" I can hardly wait, finally an offense where these players have the freedom to run and shoot any shot they want, finally a system where defense is not emphasized, yes I can see good things on the horizon


Having said that, if you want to give him a little of the blame, I have no problem with that, but anymore than that is just not right. Did Rick sign Saras, did Rick keep Tinsley around too long, did Rick sign Tinsley to a long term deal.

3Ball
05-05-2006, 08:39 AM
I think it's a little simpler than all that. Basically, a team loses 3 important players, has a series of injuries and dramas. Basically, everyone can tell that their window has closed, and that they're on the decline. So it's hard to give maximum effort in those circumstances.

Doug
05-05-2006, 08:47 AM
The culture of a team, or any organization like a business starts at the top. Since the Simons are "hands-off", that means DW and LB. However, the person with the largest influence on how the culture of the team develops is the coach.

You could see last year where Rick's "calm, business and usual, don't panic" style turned what very well should have been a lottery team post-brawl into a competitive playoff team.

So, what happened this year?

Reggie left, for one.

But I'm inclined to believe all of the crap that has happened to this team over the past two years just became too much for everybody - coach and players alike - to deal with.

The seeds of this season were planted in the brawl last year. This year we truly reaped that bitter harvest.

Chauncey
05-05-2006, 08:56 AM
I think to suggest that Rick Carlisle is the root cause of the culture is laughable. He has forced the players to play selfishisly, to not play hard, to fake injuries, to get injured in the first place, to take bad shots, to hate their teammates, to hog the ball. Wow I got to tell you if he has that much control, then he is better than even I think, it is just too bad he didn't use his god like impact for good instead of evil.

OK, but if you believe that then fine, that makes this summer easier, fire the coach bring in who ever you want, keep the same players and we'll be championship contenders. The players will love each other and finally, oh finally a "fun offense" I can hardly wait, finally an offense where these players have the freedom to run and shoot any shot they want, finally a system where defense is not emphasized, yes I can see good things on the horizon


Your man-crush on Carlisle is getting to the point where Artest would probably be jealous...and that says a lot since you defended Psycho til you were the last halfway-sane Pacer fan in existence who didn't want him gone.

You don't think Carlisle, his horrendous people skills, double-standards and prevent offense should share in a great deal of the blame? That's just ridiculous. He has a hand in every problem the Pacers have. Even better, the team thinks he's a piece-of-crap. I doubt that there's more than 1-2 guys who would say more than the obligatory "coach did a good job" statement to the press if he got canned. In fact, I know there's not.

Hell and thats just because the players don't like him (nor respect him, by the way.) That doesn't even begin to take into account the fact that he tries to win games by playing stallball in a league with a 24-second shot clock. That his "system" makes very good offensive players look like average ones. That he maintains on hiring his buddies for his assistants instead of qualified coaches that might challenge his authority. That he was run out of town in Detroit for the very same reasons (and would have been regardless of whether or not Brown was available.)

He's a big problem. He's not the only problem, but he's a big one. If the Pacer's issues are a monster, you cut the head off the monster to kill him. The head is Rick Carlisle. A different coach...one that respects the players and trusts them (and doesn't treat them like 5 year olds and make them run a prevent offense in an effort to make his defensive "system" look good) would be a huge step in the right direction. These players have been through absolute professional torture (high-paid torture, though) over the past two years and the very last thing they've needed is Carlisle's terrible offensive system, his condescending attitude towards them and his my-way-or-the-highway approach to handling his coaching staff.

Get a guy in there thats receptive to his staff and his players and you'll see a product on the floor that's not only more enjoyable for the team and fans, but also BETTER. People work harder when they are trusted and feel that their input matters. Its the same in every line of work, in every office across the country and in every classroom.

Teams and businesses that succeed are ones where the players/employees feel a sense of ownership for the product. Right now the players don't feel that at all. They feel like Rick owns the mansion and they're preparing dinner.

Knucklehead Warrior
05-05-2006, 09:09 AM
Let's not assume just because the poisons are identified by TPTB that they can be dealt. AND it might be, that in order to deal a couple people you want to, you might also have to deal some people you'd rather keep.

My point is twofold. We might not necessarily get rid of all the cancers on this team, and just because someone gets traded it doesn't necessarily mean that he was a problem.

Also, you might just have a borderline guy and TPTB decide they could "change" him under different circumstances. Remember how long we kept :censored: even after several ballistic episodes because he was a great player? You put up with a little bit in order to stay competitive. I'd prefer they clean house and not keep any mistakes and they may decide this as well.

Mourning
05-05-2006, 09:09 AM
The culture of a team, or any organization like a business starts at the top. Since the Simons are "hands-off", that means DW and LB. However, the person with the largest influence on how the culture of the team develops is the coach.

You could see last year where Rick's "calm, business and usual, don't panic" style turned what very well should have been a lottery team post-brawl into a competitive playoff team.

So, what happened this year?

Reggie left, for one.

But I'm inclined to believe all of the crap that has happened to this team over the past two years just became too much for everybody - coach and players alike - to deal with.

The seeds of this season were planted in the brawl last year. This year we truly reaped that bitter harvest.

:amen:

And I also basically aggree with Unclebuck about basically blaming Rick by far the most. He should be blamed and quite hefty too, but also, please take a look what personell he has had to use, the injuries, the brawl, the in-fighting, etc, etc.

Again, he should have done a lot of things differently, but that doesn't explain a lot of things that have gone wrong since he became the headcoach here. Personally, over the last few weeks I have reached the conclusion he should be relieved or better he should have the chance to sort of "opt out" or say "I quit" option. I don't think a lot of coaches could have achieved what he did two years ago and last year. I just think there are a lot of people on the team and staff that are fed up with each other and those that are in need of a new-opportunity or a second chance if you want to call it that.

These people have had it with a lot of each other and Rick has unfortunately been unable to make it work like it worked last year and in some cases made it worse by either not addressing the problems or using double standards when it comes to players.

The players are getting used to what he says or brings, I don't know. I do think a new coach is needed and actually feel sorry for Rick considering the circumstances he has had to operate in the last two years, but he HAS lost the team that much is clear.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 10:14 AM
He's a big problem. He's not the only problem, but he's a big one. If the Pacer's issues are a monster, you cut the head off the monster to kill him. The head is Rick Carlisle. A different coach...one that respects the players and trusts them (and doesn't treat them like 5 year olds and make them run a prevent offense in an effort to make his defensive "system" look good) would be a huge step in the right direction. These players have been through absolute professional torture (high-paid torture, though) over the past two years and the very last thing they've needed is Carlisle's terrible offensive system, his condescending attitude towards them and his my-way-or-the-highway approach to handling his coaching staff.

Never in my life did I think I would say this,

But :thankyou: Chauncey.

Perfect.

Anthem
05-05-2006, 10:26 AM
Man, what a day. First I praise Jay, then I praise Chauncey.

Great post.

Does anybody have that "three years" quote by Bird?

indytoad
05-05-2006, 10:26 AM
I'm suprised SIG hasn't swooped in here already...

Peck: What're your thoughts on David Harrison vis-a-vis the culture club (or whatever it is)?

IndyToad
Ergo, consequently

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 10:29 AM
Please some one explain what a prevent offense is

Fool
05-05-2006, 10:34 AM
I thought it was a very clever and applicable term. While it might have been just a shot, its rather descriptive of Carlisle's style of pulling the guards back at all cost to stop the opponents transition game, draining the shot clock on his team's possessions to create few chances for the opponent and other simialrly defensive tendencies in his offensive approach.

Jumper
05-05-2006, 10:43 AM
Please some one explain what a prevent offense is

Umm....


See Pacer basketball circa 2003-2006:laugh:

Brian
05-05-2006, 10:43 AM
Looks like instead of "pacer pizza parties" we are gonna have to have "pacer support groups".

"Umm,Hi my name is Brian and I am a pacers fan."

"Hi,Brian."

Chauncey
05-05-2006, 10:50 AM
I thought it was a very clever and applicable term. .

Someone on here coined the term, or at least I think they did. I first saw it on here from someone else and loved it. Its just a perfect description for what the Pacers try to do (or try not to do, as the case may be) on offense.

To answer UB's question..to me its like playing scared. You're so worried about the other team's counter-punch that you're scared to throw a punch yourself.

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 10:54 AM
Please some one explain what a prevent offense is

An offense in which it is more important to run time off the clock than to get a good shot.

There's no other explanation for Rick's offense. We dribble the ball needlessly. Is there any other team that starts the offense so late in the shotclock?

Dribble. Dribble. Dribble. Two passes, and a brick to beat the shotclock.

But Rick would rather have that than an easy basket early in the shotclock.

We have the most passive offensive approach in the NBA. We need to be much more aggressive with the ball.

grace
05-05-2006, 11:01 AM
The Pacers biggest problem is the management that keeps its head in the sand and ignores what goes on behind the scenes.

Doug
05-05-2006, 11:02 AM
We have the most passive offensive approach in the NBA. We need to be much more aggressive with the ball.

And the most passive rebounding approach.

How many times did we give up cruical offensive rebounds last night because NJs guards or forwards would go after the ball instead of immediately backpedaling on defense?

How many times did we not get our own offensive rebounds because our guards and fowards immediately run back on defense as soon as the shot goes up?

On top of that, our fundementals suck. We can't box out or set a pick to save our life.

bulletproof
05-05-2006, 11:04 AM
"It was (expletive) ridiculous this season," said Pacers center Scot Pollard, who is an unrestricted free agent. "I've never seen or been a part of a more messed-up situation in my career. It was a combination of a ton of things. If they were by themselves it wouldn't be a problem, but when they all hit there's nothing you can do about it."
It's funny how people can look at the same quote and read entirely different things into it. The thing that stands out to me here is "...but when they all hit, there's nothing you can do about." As in, myriad things that are out of your control.

Doug hit the nail on the head, in my opinion:


But I'm inclined to believe all of the crap that has happened to this team over the past two years just became too much for everybody - coach and players alike - to deal with.

The seeds of this season were planted in the brawl last year. This year we truly reaped that bitter harvest.

I'm guessing the brawl, the injuries, Reggie leaving and Ron's trade demand and departure are most likely what Scot is referring to here. You can deal with each one individually, but when they all hit at the same time, it's devastating and there's nothing you can do about it. That's what Scot is talking about.

Peck
05-05-2006, 11:05 AM
Someone on here coined the term, or at least I think they did. I first saw it on here from someone else and loved it. Its just a perfect description for what the Pacers try to do (or try not to do, as the case may be) on offense.

To answer UB's question..to me its like playing scared. You're so worried about the other team's counter-punch that you're scared to throw a punch yourself.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19902&page=4&highlight=prevent+offense

page 5 post 110 I entered the frey & coined the term prevent offense for Rick for this reason.

Now as to Carlisle. There can be no doubt, when he gets nervous he figuratively speaking "runs home to momma".

In other words he becomes so obsessed with turnovers & transition defense that he forgets everything that was working up till that point. Thus we have prevent offense which gives us periods of 4-6 min. at a time without a fieldgoal.

Brian
05-05-2006, 11:06 AM
The Pacers biggest problem is the management that keeps its head in the sand and ignores what goes on behind the scenes.


You know,Ive thought that for the longest time also.Its almost like its a situation like "well I dont want to say anything to this guy because he might not like me after this,and not wanna play 110% out there".

But they have to realize that 70% of these guys dont even want to be in Indiana anyways,so it doesnt really matter to them if they get traded or not.Most of these guys care more about weather/women/clubs than winning a ring.So in their minds they think "oooOoooOOoo,you're gonna trade me to ATL?,that would just break my heart.I wouldnt be expected to win,so I wouldnt have to play hard at all,and hmmm...club ratio 20 for every 1 club in Indy".

Fool
05-05-2006, 11:18 AM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19902&page=4&highlight=prevent+offense

page 5 post 110 I entered the frey & coined the term prevent offense for Rick for this reason.

Now as to Carlisle. There can be no doubt, when he gets nervous he figuratively speaking "runs home to momma".

In other words he becomes so obsessed with turnovers & transition defense that he forgets everything that was working up till that point. Thus we have prevent offense which gives us periods of 4-6 min. at a time without a fieldgoal.

Remember when people would blame the Piston players for those...

indytoad
05-05-2006, 11:24 AM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19902&page=4&highlight=prevent+offense

page 5 post 110 I entered the frey & coined the term prevent offense for Rick for this reason.

Now as to Carlisle. There can be no doubt, when he gets nervous he figuratively speaking "runs home to momma".

In other words he becomes so obsessed with turnovers & transition defense that he forgets everything that was working up till that point. Thus we have prevent offense which gives us periods of 4-6 min. at a time without a fieldgoal.

I think someone else may have beat you to it... (http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=168412&highlight=prevent+offense#post168412)

Way back in April '05, even.

IndyToad
Master denominator

Peck
05-05-2006, 11:33 AM
I think to suggest that Rick Carlisle is the root cause of the culture is laughable. He has forced the players to play selfishisly, to not play hard, to fake injuries, to get injured in the first place, to take bad shots, to hate their teammates, to hog the ball. Wow I got to tell you if he has that much control, then he is better than even I think, it is just too bad he didn't use his god like impact for good instead of evil.

OK, but if you believe that then fine, that makes this summer easier, fire the coach bring in who ever you want, keep the same players and we'll be championship contenders. The players will love each other and finally, oh finally a "fun offense" I can hardly wait, finally an offense where these players have the freedom to run and shoot any shot they want, finally a system where defense is not emphasized, yes I can see good things on the horizon


Having said that, if you want to give him a little of the blame, I have no problem with that, but anymore than that is just not right. Did Rick sign Saras, did Rick keep Tinsley around too long, did Rick sign Tinsley to a long term deal.

If the point of your post was to make me realize that Iforgot to ultimately blame Walsh for all of this, congrats. Mission accomplished.;)

But other than that, no I don't get your point. Because your entire first paragraph is, IMO, flawed.

Because yes, he is responsible for the players to play selfishisly, to not play hard, to fake injuries, to get injured in the first place, to take bad shots, to hate their teammates, to hog the ball.

If a player is playing selfishly why does he continue to allow him to play? Simple because Rick has a double standard & ever memeber of that team knows it. Do you think he would let David Harrison play selfishly? I'm guessing no. However Ron, Jax, Jamaal & Jermaine would go for quarters playing this way without a word from Rick.

Why did he allow players to not play hard on the floor? He sets the standard for this, if he saw it & allowed it to continue to happen then who's fault is that?

Fake injurys? Other than the time you finally admitted Ron was faking the injury just before he was traded I don't know that you ever conceded that players might not be as injured as they let on. Anyway our good friend Ragnar had something to say along these lines & the more I think about it the more I think he is dead on. Our players weren't chronically injured until Rick came aboard. In other words if your admitting they are faking it you might as well come on over to the dark side & admit that some of them were faking it because they did not want to play for Rick Carlisle. I'll just go ahead & say it now & I'll prepare for the family onslaught that I will probably recieve. But I am not sure that if Rick isn't gone that if all of a sudden Jon Benders knees are not miraculasly healed. I'm not saying it will happen, let's just say I wouldn't be suprised.

Get injured in the first place. Well your right to a point there. However some of the big guys being injured may have something to do with the fact that he refuses to play all of our big men & keeps trying J.O. to be a physical force. Now I don't blame Rick for that however reality dictates that J.O. is to physical play what a clown is to rocket science.

Take bad shots? I will contend & you will argue against that Ricks entire offense forces bad shots. His offense gets you two things. Either a post shot that is usually double teamed or some 20' or beyond shot. Now if your going to tell me that the players not cutting is not Rick's fault I will still disagree with you. If they are not playing the offense he is designing then again why is he playing them? If everybody is breaking his offense could it be that the players hate it so bad that they feel no need to comply with him? Either way, sorry it's the coach's fault.

Hate thier team mates? Sorry but yes he is a big BIG big part of this. The double standard thing, which I know you always blew off whenever I would say it, is probably the single biggest factor in this. Sure personalities are not his fault, but not holding everyone to the same standard is his fault.

Ball Hog. He designed the offense so that 4 guys would run to one side of the floor while one player tried to go 1-5 until he either couldn't get a shot or had to take one & you wonder why some of the players became ball hogs?

Look I know you love Rick & I have never said he was a bad coach. I don't even have a huge problem if he comes back, I think it's a mistake but what can I do.

However to not see that the flaws listed above are not his fault is just wrong. He is not the only one with faults cause like you said ultimatly people above him made poor choices & IMO they even made a bigger mistake by not standing up for Rick much earlier than they did.

But at the end of the day he was fired from Detroit for the same reason, he was not hired by the Pacers the first time around for the same reason.

Pig Nash
05-05-2006, 11:35 AM
I remember when...something or other about the Pistons

The Pistons deserve some credit for this when we play them, but we weren't able to score on the Bobcats, either. This is more of a problem with the offense than it is with the opposing defense.

Fool
05-05-2006, 11:38 AM
The Pistons deserve some credit for this when we play them, but we weren't able to score on the Bobcats, either. This is more of a problem with the offense than it is with the opposing defense.


No no no, I was talking about when the Pistons suffered those 1/2 a quarter offensive droughts and people said "those players just aren't good enough offensively." Sorry for the mix up. I can see how its easy to take it the other way.

Pig Nash
05-05-2006, 11:42 AM
Ah, my fault. I didn't catch your antecedent.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 12:05 PM
An offense in which it is more important to run time off the clock than to get a good shot.

There's no other explanation for Rick's offense. We dribble the ball needlessly. Is there any other team that starts the offense so late in the shotclock?

Dribble. Dribble. Dribble. Two passes, and a brick to beat the shotclock.

But Rick would rather have that than an easy basket early in the shotclock.

We have the most passive offensive approach in the NBA. We need to be much more aggressive with the ball.


The only sentence I can agree with a little is your very last sentence. I believe you have to be aggressive at all times on both ends of the court. and that is my only complaint I have with Rick's teams.

Everything else you posted is garbage, and I don't see any evidence to support what you're saying

Anthem
05-05-2006, 12:18 PM
Everything else you posted is garbage, and I don't see any evidence to support what you're saying
Come on, Buck. I know you're upset right now, but be realistic. What team takes more time to iniate their offense than us?

Suaveness
05-05-2006, 12:42 PM
Funny as it is, I'm disagreeing with Buck and agreeing with Jay...

....what has this world come to.


And I think Rick needs to go. If not for his crap offensive schemes, but at least because we need change for change sake. It just isn't working, people hate each other. Just get rid of as many people as possible.

waxman
05-05-2006, 01:06 PM
We simply didn't have efficient enough players to run Ricks possession control offense... and we didn't have the stingey defense we had 3 years ago to cover for it. I'm baffled as to why our coaches didn't adjust to that.

Stryder
05-05-2006, 01:06 PM
Everything else you posted is garbage, and I don't see any evidence to support what you're saying


Seriously, did you watch any of the games in the last half of the season? I'm not being facetious, but I just want to know where you get those Rick Carlisle underoos at...

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 01:07 PM
Funny as it is, I'm disagreeing with Buck and agreeing with Jay...

....what has this world come to.





I have lost the forum, Jay has won

Fool
05-05-2006, 01:09 PM
Come on, Buck. I know you're upset right now, but be realistic. What team takes more time to iniate their offense than us?

While I want to say that Rick runs the clock down (in fact I did in another thread) 82games keeps this stat.

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506IND3.HTM

Which says that 61% of Pacer shots come withing the first 15 seconds of the shot clock. Now, you'd have to compare that to other teams (since it could just be a product of the NBA that more shots are taken, league wide, that early in the clock) but its definately not what I expected.

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 01:10 PM
I have lost the forum, Jay has won

:king:


I kid... I kid...

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 01:11 PM
While I want to say that Rick runs the clock down (in fact I did in another thread) 82games keeps this stat.

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506IND3.HTM

Which says that 61% of Pacer shots come withing the first 15 seconds of the shot clock. Now, you'd have to compare that to other teams (since it could just be a product of the NBA that more shots are taken, league wide, that early) but its not what I expected.

Well, Stephen Jackson doesn't have a conscience. Doesn't make those early shots worth a damn, either.

denyfizle
05-05-2006, 04:23 PM
The culprits??? Larry Bird, Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson, Rick Carlisle and Jamaal Tinsley- in that order. DH, Runi and the rest were just affected by the initial conflict which roots from the head of this monster.

aceace
05-05-2006, 05:07 PM
Peck gotta agree with your first post (almost totally). Looking at the bright side, with 2 completely screwed up years of injuries and suspensions we still managed to win 50% of our games and make the playoffs. Our team is and was capable of much more. Jackson is a cancer. He takes bad shots argues with the officials on nearly every call and it cost him calls in late game situations. He's the one player I will not miss next year and I would be shocked if he's in training camp next year. Then and only then will I start blaming Larry and Donnie. JO is not the problem its a few thats around him thats the problem. Specifically Jax and Tinsley. JO is right in saying that we need a big Center to absorb the punishment. Foster, Pollard and Croshere are really PF being disguised as centers. Harrison has showed flashes of being a real pro, but he's simply not ready for the big time. He's a 3rd string backup at C,PF. Tinsley needs to join a wheelchair basketball team and maybe he could contribute an assist or two... if his elbow doesn't flare up. As for Carlisle he coached us to a 61 win season and Detroit to 2 - 50+ win seasons. His hands have been tied for the last 2 years and he's got a year left on his contract. I think he coaches us next year, after that who knows.

CableKC
05-05-2006, 05:22 PM
Was there not something reported on this board about JO being on the
cell phone the entire time a video session? or somesuch was going on.
Apparently talking about business at his club. If that is true JO should
be one the people at the top of the list.

owl
That was suggested by someone here....I think Doug in OH? Not sure...but I can totally see this happening....and I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen.

Indyfan
05-05-2006, 05:24 PM
To say Rick is the root of this culture is so unfair, and uncalled for, I really can't believe that Peck said it. It is easiest to blame the coach in this league, they are easier to get rid of, and they get paid what they do because they often take the fall for things gone wrong. But you must look at this team, look at what he had given to him to work with, look at what happened when we lost Reggie and his true professionalism, look at what has been dealt to Rick and how he NOT ONCE called out a player in the media, Not once made excuses or tried to put the blame on anyone else for what has happened. Rick has handled these two years as a true professional in every way. Can you imagine Larry Brown dealing with this stuff, he would have left half way through last season rather then ride it out and make something of the season.

You know sometimes you get a reputation and no matter what you do people will only see that reputation even when you act opposite to it. Rick got a bad rep from Detroit, that franchise hung him out to dry and spun a lot of things about him to make their decision seem justified in firing him, and those false accusations have stuck, so now when things go badly everyone is ready to start saying the players don't like him or respect him, he is a terrible people person, he can't communicate, and on and on.

Have you listened to Rick talk? Does he sound like he can't communicate with his players? He has said many times how he has talked with this guy or that guy to encourage them and point out what they need to do, or to be ready in case an opportunity presents itself, etc.

The culture is bad because the culture of the league is bad. Many of these guys want to play street ball, have fun doing it, but that will not win games! Look at Artest, he complained because of the offense and he had many nights where he had the most touches, rediculous! He has a hard time stringing two thoughts together, and he needed a reason for his insanity of wanting a trade, and we take this guys word about coach. Are we going to say let Tinsley loose, yea we saw that result a couple of times this year, he is out of control that way. So if Tinsley doesn't like a stuctured system, and Jax doesn't like the offense, we should take their word over a coach who is highly regarded by his peers and the experts. A coach who has not missed the playoffs in his career, and has had great success given the opportunity, and a normal situation, not a brawl and injury depleted roster. The worst problem with our culture is that the players have all the guanteed contracts, and make so much money they don't want to be coached, they think they know better. Remember what JKidd did to Byron, he got him fired, no doubt in my mind. Players are able to make coaches look really bad if they put their mind to it.

There are different standards for different players, to say he should have treated them all the same is to ignore the reality of talent, egos, contracts, veterans vs. rookies, they are not all equal. As a parent you find out pretty quickly there are some kids who respond well to discipline and there are some that totally go the other way under strict discipline; age and gender, temperment, etc. all have to factor in how you deal with your kids. Well these are grown men making gobs of money to play a game, many are not well educated or well brought up, and its not their fault, but still you can't treat them all the same, that would lose the team even faster then trying to weigh how to work with each person and do your best to balance it all out. Add to that this group has many other issues, the cancer is there and no amout of STFU from coach was going to accomplish what everyone is so convinced it would. Rick would not be respected by his players at all if he tried to treat them like some sort of dictator. I guess we won't really know if he made the right decisions until someone else is coaching these guys and tries the other way. No matter how you look at it it wasn't as simple as sit Jax down, heck some are even saying Rick not playing Peja a couple of 4th quarters was the reason Peja was not playing the last games. You can't have it both ways.

I also think it unfair to say Rick only hires his friends as assistants and not those who are great coaches because he is afraid of having great assistants. He had great success in Detroit with KO and Tony Brown, Kevin landed a head job after it, so when he took this job he searched out the best assistant he could find and promoted him to associate head coach so we could hire him from SA, they wouldn't have let Mike go as a lateral move. Mike Brown getting the head job in Cleaveland is a tribute to how much trust Rick had in him here to make decisions and run our defense. Brown has struggled at times this year as every coach does, Rick has too, but please don't lay that claim at his feet.

Sorry for the rant but think we can have a very short memory at times and the job Rick has done in this situation is not deserving of the kind of hate he is getting from many on this board. I agree that he may need to move on, the team may need a change, but lets not go crazy accusing him of being our main problem. This is a dysfunctional group of people, and I would like to know who would have stuck it out and kept a positive outlook as Rick has done these two years. No other coach has ever had to face this much adversity 2 consecutive years, so we don't have anyone to compare him to.

aceace
05-05-2006, 05:31 PM
Good post Indyfan. I agree.

Of course i'm just a headless chicken with no chance at a forum nomination....... or award!

CableKC
05-05-2006, 05:56 PM
Peck gotta agree with your first post (almost totally). Looking at the bright side, with 2 completely screwed up years of injuries and suspensions we still managed to win 50% of our games and make the playoffs. Our team is and was capable of much more. Jackson is a cancer. He takes bad shots argues with the officials on nearly every call and it cost him calls in late game situations. He's the one player I will not miss next year and I would be shocked if he's in training camp next year. Then and only then will I start blaming Larry and Donnie. JO is not the problem its a few thats around him thats the problem. Specifically Jax and Tinsley. JO is right in saying that we need a big Center to absorb the punishment. Foster, Pollard and Croshere are really PF being disguised as centers. Harrison has showed flashes of being a real pro, but he's simply not ready for the big time. He's a 3rd string backup at C,PF. Tinsley needs to join a wheelchair basketball team and maybe he could contribute an assist or two... if his elbow doesn't flare up. As for Carlisle he coached us to a 61 win season and Detroit to 2 - 50+ win seasons. His hands have been tied for the last 2 years and he's got a year left on his contract. I think he coaches us next year, after that who knows.

I'll agree with what you and Peck have pretty much said when it comes to culture. To me......the more vocal players that get the attention and press time on the team ( like SJax, Tinsley and JONeal ) as opposed to the lesser known and more quiet ( but as important ) players on the team ( like Peja, Foster, AJ, and...to a lesser degree....Croshere and Pollard ) are the ones that set the tone and culture for the rest of the team. Everyone else is just bit players following the dance chorus.

I would hope that JONeal can escape some of the blame for the culture and hope that he hasn't contributed to it....but I feel that by doing nothing to curb stupid behavior among his teammates......he's essentially contributing to the lack of culture. JONeal himself has to be the Professional when he steps onto the court ( like not arguing with refs or pumping his chest ) and in the lockerroom ( like calling out his teammates for towing the party line ). Essentially, he just needs to lead by example by walking the walk and talking the talk.

I'm a little weary of Carlisle's role in the team culture....but he's the proverbial Sheep Dog of the flock. If the flock has strayed and there are big bad sheep being bad influences on the rest of the flock...its his job...along with JONeal's to get them back in line. I fear that he falls into the same catagory with JONeal....by doing nothing to curb bad / stupid behavior....then he essentially contributes to it.

Its easier said then done...but get rid of SJax, Tinsley and ( if the right deal can be had ) JONeal to start the reformatting of the team's "culture".

8.9_seconds
05-05-2006, 07:50 PM
Man, what a day. First I praise Jay, then I praise Chauncey.

Great post.

Does anybody have that "three years" quote by Bird?



Add me to that list.

Last Year Rick = Coach of the Year


This year= Rick= Coach that needs to leave next year.



As Chauncey said, you have to cut the head off the monster. Do you think that Red Auerbach would put up with this crap? Larry Brown?.. ehhh... well up until this year. Avery Johnson? I would be afraid he would eat me, I don't care how little he is. Rick, and I have been trying not to blame him, has let this team get out of control. A coach puts his foot down and doesn't let this crap happen in the first place.

As for blaming Ron, No. These guys need to learn how to rise above that, hell, they did it last year, better too.

CableKC
05-05-2006, 08:32 PM
OMG....8.9_seconds....where did you get the avatar of Pollard's mug?

:lmao:

8.9_seconds
05-06-2006, 01:11 AM
OMG....8.9_seconds....where did you get the avatar of Pollard's mug?

:lmao:


Actually, I think that I just Typed in Scot Pollard Photos and then it came, the man is gold!!

Arcadian
05-06-2006, 01:20 AM
First off I love threads talking about players who talk too much. But then I am a gossip whore.

All I can say is obviously there are factions in the lockerroom and it is managments job to seperate the wheat from the shaft. This is my expectation for managment this year. I don't really care who stays and who goes so long as the issue is resolved. I would hate to have to root another season for a team so pettily divided.

CableKC
05-06-2006, 01:43 AM
Actually, I think that I just Typed in Scot Pollard Photos and then it came, the man is gold!!
I don't know about you....but his photos just sealed the deal for me....Bird must resign him in the offseason. His humor cannot fall into the hands of an opposing team.

You want Culture? He's part of a culture that I want to have with the Pacers.

Jose Slaughter
07-26-2006, 10:33 AM
Considering some of the things that have been happening lately I thought some might want to re-read this thread.

bulletproof
07-26-2006, 10:38 AM
Considering some of the things that have been happening lately I thought some might want to re-read this thread.

What has been happening lately and why are you suggesting we re-read this thread?

SycamoreKen
07-26-2006, 11:11 AM
Well, I read it for the first time and have come to the conclusion that Rick may not be right for this team any more. If he has lost the respect/control of the team then he will really not be able to accomplish what he wants to do.

arenn
07-26-2006, 11:49 AM
What has been happening lately and why are you suggesting we re-read this thread?

Maybe the fact that Tinsley, Jackson, and Carlisle are still around while a number of the "consummate pros" have been dealt.

bulletproof
07-26-2006, 11:50 AM
Still early.

And does anyone here really know who are the "culprits" and the "consummate pros." Maybe AJ was one of the culprits.

The Hustler
07-26-2006, 11:56 AM
Maybe the problems are as peck suggested but therefore this makes them to hard to trade .... we do not know ... certainly interesting to look back on though!

PacerMan
07-26-2006, 12:02 PM
I rank Rick Carlisle as not only high but ultimately the root cause of the culture. Does anybody disagree? Ok, anybody that's name doesn't rhyme with dunkle cluck disagree?;)

Yes.
You have absolutely no idea if any of your perceptions are correct. Unless one was IN the lockerroom, on the planes, at the hotels, etc it's all speculation.
Sometimes ***** HAPPENS, no matter how prepared you think you are. No matter how skilled or experienced the leadership. Sometimes circumstance really can conspire against one.
Or maybe Rick sucks.
Who knows?
I sure don't.
Neither does anyone else here.

Anthem
07-26-2006, 01:03 PM
What has been happening lately and why are you suggesting we re-read this thread?
We discovered that Pollard is likely part of the problem, not the solution.

I mean, the man didn't respect the authority of the law, and flaunted his wrong-numbered boat. We should cut him now, before our younger players have a chance to be infected by his lack of character. :mad: :flirt:

Since86
07-26-2006, 01:39 PM
We discovered that Pollard is likely part of the problem, not the solution.

I mean, the man didn't respect the authority of the law, and flaunted his wrong-numbered boat. We should cut him now, before our younger players have a chance to be infected by his lack of character. :mad: :flirt:

He's a FA, so no need to cut him. ;)

Unless you're talking about stringing him up, and cutting off some of his limbs, then I'm all for it. :duel:

Gamble
07-26-2006, 04:15 PM
I will say this to UB and Peck prevent defense was coined by football
not basketball but it still gets you the same result a "L".

Rick deserves alot the blame in this case. He did more than likely bring
in his clone of Kevin Oneil which obviously was a mistake and his double
standards with the players is no where near what respectable coaches
do.

On a side note how orginal is iso ball. Come on we hardly have but one
player that can take a man off the dribble and score or draw a foul.

I really don't see how RIck inspires our players to play as a team which
in my opinion is what we need.

Shade
07-26-2006, 05:38 PM
We obviously greatly miss Mike Brown.

Naptown_Seth
07-26-2006, 09:42 PM
Danny Granger is a rookie & has done nothing or shown nothing but being easy to deal with & appears to work on his game. Does anybody disagree with this?
If you are using AJ's comments as a jumping off point for all of this, then F'n A I disagree with this. AJ called out Danny, implied he wasn't always focused, etc. It was near the end of the season as I recall, and something of a backhanded compliment IIRC...like, "he's very good when he's focused, once he learns some discipline" or something along those lines.

I think AJ is usually just being honest, so it never really bothered me, but he called guys out and it wasn't just Jack, Tins and JO (ie, the whipping boys).


I put him in the very low risk catagory, however I can't help but think he might have been in on some of this.
Remember when Jack said "I'm not an SF, they don't know how to use me and they are messing up my game. I don't want to play SF"???

Me neither. And if he did say it the fans would have gone ballistic. ANY player in the last 2 seasons saying ANYTHING about "I'm not a position X player" and complaining about it needs to shut his yapper. Even AJ played SG, Fred went to PG at times. Cripes, WhoTF DIDN'T changes positions at times? Not a long list, and a struggling rookie definitely shouldn't be putting himself on it.

So that's two "angels" that clearly weren't perfect either.



Because yes, he is responsible for the players to play selfishisly, to not play hard, to fake injuries, to get injured in the first place, to take bad shots, to hate their teammates, to hog the ball.Which means that when the team did well it was due ULTIMATELY to Rick (ie, 61 wins was basically due to RC). And that means that if the team plays good ball this season you will admit you were wrong about RC and back off this angle....unless you go with some lame "he was great, then bad, then great again" angle.

And if they struggle and bicker, I'll concede openly and loudly that you were right and RC needs to go. I'll even put it in my sig.




I think it's a little simpler than all that. Basically, a team loses 3 important players, has a series of injuries and dramas. Basically, everyone can tell that their window has closed, and that they're on the decline. So it's hard to give maximum effort in those circumstances.
Exactly. It was that simple. Last year when Ron did it again you could feel the air go out of the room. Then when the trade lingered for over a month you could feel hope going with it.

Peja comes in, YAY...oh, JO is out....dang...WAIT here's Foster and Scot and a home stand and oh, wait...more injuries....


It's like fighting the good fight that first year, hanging tough, barely holding on but somehow by your fingertips you do it and you are starting to pull yourself up when 05-06 comes along and steps on your fingers.

Naptown_Seth
07-26-2006, 10:28 PM
Seriously, did you watch any of the games in the last half of the season? I'm not being facetious, but I just want to know where you get those Rick Carlisle underoos at...Did you watch the Sacto game? Was that last half or not? I just rewatched it last night for fun actually.

I saw a great 3rd quarter including very inspired play from Jack (he and Danny owned the quarter) and lots of cutting and aggressive offense with players coming to the rim. Only 1 3ball I think (AJ miss) and Jack was on Ron all quarter while he struggled to get a good look...contrast with Peja getting backdoored by Martin a couple of times in that same quarter.

And it was Jack stealing the in-bounds pass with a second left (from Brad Miller who cried foul) and just missed a pretty good 3ball look as the buzzer sounded. If you have the game still, take a look at that quarter and tell me how RC's teams 100% can't do this stuff or how Jack 100% is a problem.

At best a person could say "sometimes". The team struggled when they looked EMOTIONALLY worn down. And that started with one player and one night and built from there.


BTW, I like JO's game too and think he is improving his attitude, but the following photo should remind people that it hasn't always been so smooth with him, even recently...

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/9af3.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/8a74.jpg

That wasn't "hey, you're terrific JO, keep up the great work" Reggie was saying to him.

And while we are redirecting some of the "reality", it wasn't always Jack arguing with refs and getting T'd up (in fact his techs dropped way off after Ron was done). Jack also acted as the calm player helping protect guys against techs. One example I caught was AJ going off in the win over the Blazers and Jack CALMLY walking over, listening to both sides and letting AJ have his say on the matter while making sure he stayed cool, and then when it was time to end it Jack camly directed AJ away even though he continued to try and yap about the call.

Here's the proof, first Jack leaning in and listening for 20-30 seconds, then taking AJ away when enough was enough.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/747fscd.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/a243scd.jpg


It's stuff like this that makes me argue so hard. Jack actually had his own temper improve over the season, thus stuff like above started replacing his own slew of techs (check the stats). That came from RC.


I liked every player on the team last season, and I saw every player lose it or act up or whatever (Pollard's jersey rip anyone). If it was just Rick or just 2 players it would already be solved. This was a group-wide case of shell shock.

Anthem
07-26-2006, 10:34 PM
Man, that's a nice trick. Post, then delete a post, then post again.