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View Full Version : JO: We got to get another big guy, and Tinsley is still the starter



Unclebuck
05-04-2006, 10:23 PM
What does JO think we need. We need a center


J.O. said the team gets along well off the court. He never said they get along well on the court

AJ can be a starting point guard, either here or someplace else.
Jamaal is still our starting point guard right now.

J.O is delusional

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 10:23 PM
He said this?

Anthem
05-04-2006, 10:23 PM
He's right.

Robertmto
05-04-2006, 10:25 PM
I wonder who Jo wants?

D-BONE
05-04-2006, 10:25 PM
NAZR, baby!!!!

Jermaniac
05-04-2006, 10:25 PM
He's right.
Co-sign

You need a guy that can draw defenders away from JO in the paint and can actually score in the paint. We have 3 centers and none of them can score in the paint, Harrison can dunk, he cant score with a hook.

Reggie4Three
05-04-2006, 10:25 PM
He also just said that Tinsley is still the starting point guard!

Jaydawg2270
05-04-2006, 10:26 PM
Jermaine is right we do need another big man, there's too much on his shoulders out there on the court

Unclebuck
05-04-2006, 10:26 PM
He may be right, but if he or anyone else thinks Harrison is the answer, then he and those thinking that are really delusional

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 10:27 PM
JO needs to shut the **** up.

Robertmto
05-04-2006, 10:27 PM
But it cant be a big man like JO. It has to be a back to the basket player

JO = jump shooter

Jaydawg2270
05-04-2006, 10:27 PM
He may be right, but if he or anyone else thinks Harrison is the answer, then he and those thinking that are really delusional

I dont think anyone thinks harrison is the answer

DisplacedKnick
05-04-2006, 10:28 PM
You need a big guy who can step out and hit from about 15 feet and make teams pay for doubling him. On crossing baseline screens and doubles that's as effective as hitting 3's to open up some space.

He's confused about Tinsley though, at least for now. That job's AJ's to lose.

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 10:28 PM
He may be right, but if he or anyone else thinks Foster is the answer, then he and those thinking that are really delusional


Woohoo, this is fun.

beast23
05-04-2006, 10:28 PM
He's right.Actually, Rick made it very clear the day that Jamal was injured, that injured or not, AJ was his starting point guard.

Maybe JO is a lot like Jackson and needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. Making a statement like that after the coach has already said otherwise does, and especially after such a fine series by the new starting point guard, does absolutely nothing for team chemistry.

waterjater
05-04-2006, 10:30 PM
We need a hell of a lot more than that! But that's a start.

After watching this motley crew all season, we don't have anyone (NOBODY) we can go to in the clutch. We have no one that break down a defense like a Carter or Jefferson. Our best shooter is a forward. Our point guard, while playing an awesome series (Kudos), still isn't the caliber of a Kidd, Parker, Billups.... And yes we don't have a center at all. We don't have a shooting guard. We have "head" cases all around.

Too painful to think about how far we've come from the depths of the 70's and 80's to where we were three years ago (really for the past 10-12 years) to where we are today. Disarray. I feel like Isaiah Thomas is managing our personnel decisions right now....and that's about the biggest insult possible.

This is why I have cancelled my NBA league pass from here forward. After 27 years of dedication (To the point of obsession), it is time to hang it up from a "manic" fan standpoint. I'll still check on the team and watch the games on Nat'l TV, but it is time to get my life back from professional sports.

Good luck and adios!

Water

Jaydawg2270
05-04-2006, 10:30 PM
Actually, Rick made it very clear the day that Jamal was injured, that injured or not, AJ was his starting point guard.

Maybe JO is a lot like Jackson and needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. Making a statement like that after the coach has already said otherwise does, and especially after such a fine series by the new starting point guard, does absolutely nothing for team chemistry.

Maybe J.O knows something about the coach that we dont know

Unclebuck
05-04-2006, 10:31 PM
For the record, I hope they do find a player better than Foster. I just don't think that is going to be as easy as some of you think.

But if Jeff is coming off the bench, that is fine with me, that means we acquired a real player

microwave_oven
05-04-2006, 10:31 PM
Harrison needs a coach...he is a good player, but is as raw as he was as a rookie. If we get a big man coach, he will develop. Not saying he is our future at center, but he will develop into a solid center.

ajbry
05-04-2006, 10:32 PM
Harrison might become a solid backup center, but that's about it. Some people around here severly overrate him, whereas other, unbiased NBA fans do not see the "star potential" - because there isn't any.

Arcadian
05-04-2006, 10:33 PM
If JO said we need a center obviously he doesn't think Harrison is the answer. Anyone to read that any other way is delusional. :)

I think what he said about the point guard spot is just being politically correct. Anything said about our pg spot can be read as bad because there is so much instability there.

Mr. Pink
05-04-2006, 10:34 PM
brad miller? :jawdrop:

waterjater
05-04-2006, 10:34 PM
JO also needs to get better. I knew we were in trouble when Collins went out with the elbow he took.

Cliff, "ANCIENT", Robinson OWNED O'Neal. How can a truly elite player NOT dominate Cliff Fricking Robinson.?!?

We need several talented players to move this team forward.

Water

Jaydawg2270
05-04-2006, 10:36 PM
brad miller? :jawdrop:

Brad is better then any center we have now

Mr. Pink
05-04-2006, 10:37 PM
Brad is better then any center we have now


I know. Man, I really do wish we still had him.

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 10:39 PM
You mean the Brad averaging 10 and 3 in the playoffs?

D-BONE
05-04-2006, 10:40 PM
He's confused about Tinsley though, at least for now. That job's AJ's to lose.

From a the standpoint of being a team guy, JO is slapping AJ in the face with this comment IMO.

BlueNGold
05-04-2006, 10:40 PM
You mean the Brad averaging 10 and 3 in the playoffs?

Brad is facing a real team. Also, he has Artest, Wells and Bibby launching all the shots.

You can be sure Miller is better than any Pacer C.

Jermaniac
05-04-2006, 10:41 PM
You mean the Brad averaging 10 and 3 in the playoffs?Which is more points then our 3 centers scored combined.

Jaydawg2270
05-04-2006, 10:41 PM
You mean the Brad averaging 10 and 3 in the playoffs?

Yeah but at least Brad played in the playoffs

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 10:43 PM
Brad is facing a real team. Also, he has Artest, Wells and Bibby launching all the shots.

You can be sure Miller is better than any Pacer C.

He might be better but he would by no means be a solution to anything.

larry
05-04-2006, 10:43 PM
jo and tins are boys. He said several times in his game 1 post conferance that everyone helped including the injured, non-dressed guys. He's wrong not only can he not start, he must go! That will go along way in getting rid of this injured culture.

Robertmto
05-04-2006, 10:45 PM
You need a big guy who can step out and hit from about 15 feet and make teams pay for doubling him.

But JO is always 15 feet from the basket...

D-BONE
05-04-2006, 10:46 PM
JO's Tins still starting PG comment=I'm mad AJ outhighscored me 40-37 in the series? Just a thought.

Young
05-04-2006, 10:46 PM
I think what we need is a center who can play defense, rebound, and one who is durable.

Lets not forget that a few years ago in Detroit, we could have easily won that series even though we had a some key guys playing through injuries. Who knows, if Prince and his damn monkey arms didn't block Reggie's layup, we might have rings. Anyways my point is that we don't have to have a center who can draw out defenders from JO. In fact we shouldn't expect to because they are few and far between.

Moses
05-04-2006, 10:48 PM
But JO is always 15 feet from the basket...
Thats because nobody on this team can make post entry passes. And nobody on this team can take away the double teams he faces..He uses his quickness to get around bigs but runs into the double team once he gets past the first one. He also has a decent mid-range jumper.

Jaydawg2270
05-04-2006, 10:52 PM
Thats because nobody on this team can make post entry passes. And nobody on this team can take away the double teams he faces..He uses his quickness to get around bigs but runs into the double team once he gets past the first one. He also has a decent mid-range jumper.

Someone finally sticks up for j.o :D

beast23
05-04-2006, 10:52 PM
As far as Tinsley and his starting status goes, I think that it's becoming pretty obvious that it won't even be an issue next season.

Everything that we read and hear indicates that Tinsley won't even be here next season.

Hicks
05-04-2006, 10:52 PM
You mean the Brad averaging 10 and 3 in the playoffs?

A horrible series for him. Add 3 boards and you'd have an over-achieving Jeff Foster in any playoff series with legit big men. Or you could look to Scot, who Rick doesn't even play 2/3 of the time. Or Harrison, the walking foul.

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 10:56 PM
A horrible series for him. Add 3 boards and you'd have an over-achieving Jeff Foster in any playoff series with legit big men. Or you could look to Scot, who Rick doesn't even play 2/3 of the time. Or Harrison, the walking foul.
And yet, the C position would still be a disaster if we had him on the team.

In fact, it'd be even worse, because his contract would be hogging up cap space that we don't have.

Kegboy
05-04-2006, 11:00 PM
Whatever happened to JO trying to get Tinsley traded, hmmm?

I seriously can't believe he said that. I don't care if that's what you think, you don't say that right after the man scored more than you ever did.

Shade
05-04-2006, 11:07 PM
*coughdaledaviscough*

:whistle:

Jermaniac
05-04-2006, 11:08 PM
Jermaine's career high is 55 points last time I checked 55>40

Unclebuck
05-04-2006, 11:09 PM
Some of you can rip Jeff Foster all you want, but it is no coincidence that in the two games that he did not play the Pacers were dominated on the boards, and in the 4 that Jeff did play the pacers won the rebounding by a nice margin.

I would also argue that the Pacers defense really suffered without Jeff in there.

As I said earlier until we get a player better than Jeff, he's the best we have at that spot

owl
05-04-2006, 11:09 PM
He may be right, but if he or anyone else thinks Harrison is the answer, then he and those thinking that are really delusional


I have to agree with you there. Trade Harrison and Foster to GS for
there pick which becomes Shelden Williams. He does all three things
that a center should do well. Rebounds, blocks shots and scores and
has a head for the game and does not complain. He is better than
Harrison already.

But that still leaves a big problem with shooting and in particular the
shooting guard. I do not foresee the Pacers getting anyone who is good
so in the second round James White.

owl

D-BONE
05-04-2006, 11:10 PM
Jermaine's career high is 55 points last time I checked 55>40

Yes. But what is his playoff career high?

Hicks
05-04-2006, 11:11 PM
Jermaine's career high is 55 points last time I checked 55>40

Against the Milwaukee Bucks of last year. No true size at all. Regular season. He coudln't even dominate the Nets front line in the playoffs for more than a game (and what a beautiful game it was; but it was 1 of 6).

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 11:12 PM
I have to agree with you there. Trade Harrison and Foster to GS for
there pick which becomes Shelden Williams. He does all three things
that a center should do well. Rebounds, blocks shots and scores and
has a head for the game and does not complain. He is better than
Harrison already.

But that still leaves a big problem with shooting and in particular the
shooting guard. I do not foresee the Pacers getting anyone who is good
so in the second round James White.

owl

Kind of like Saras was supposed to have been better than AJ already.

Urgh.

Saras ought to go back to Maccabi, I really bet he had much more fun there. NBA does not fit his style very much.

I'm not saying he's horrible or that I dislike him BTW. I just think if I were him I'd go back to Europe.

D-BONE
05-04-2006, 11:12 PM
I have to agree with you there. Trade Harrison and Foster to GS for
there pick which becomes Shelden Williams. He does all three things
that a center should do well. Rebounds, blocks shots and scores and
has a head for the game and does not complain. He is better than
Harrison already.

But that still leaves a big problem with shooting and in particular the
shooting guard. I do not foresee the Pacers getting anyone who is good
so in the second round James White.

owl

Replace Foster with JO and see if we can't turn that into Williams and a second trade for a SG.

Kegboy
05-04-2006, 11:15 PM
Jermaine's career high is 55 points last time I checked 55>40

Playoffs dude. As I said to Hicks, Tony Delk scoring 54 in the regular season don't mean crap.

Kegboy
05-04-2006, 11:18 PM
I have to agree with you there. Trade Harrison and Foster to GS for
there pick which becomes Shelden Williams. He does all three things
that a center should do well. Rebounds, blocks shots and scores and
has a head for the game and does not complain. He is better than
Harrison already.

But that still leaves a big problem with shooting and in particular the
shooting guard. I do not foresee the Pacers getting anyone who is good
so in the second round James White.

owl

I know you've been talking up Williams, but isn't he the guy that Killingsworth owned back in November?

ChicagoJ
05-04-2006, 11:22 PM
I agree with JO.

Tinsley and Harrison should be in next season's starting lineup, for a new coaching staff. And that includes an appropriate big-man coach for David.

D-BONE
05-04-2006, 11:26 PM
I agree with JO.

Tinsley and Harrison should be in next season's starting lineup, for a new coaching staff. And that includes an appropriate big-man coach for David.

I thought you were against complete rebuilding.

Jermaniac
05-04-2006, 11:27 PM
Playoffs dude. As I said to Hicks, Tony Delk scoring 54 in the regular season don't mean crap.When JO scored 37 what he take like 18 shots? And we won the game.

SoupIsGood
05-04-2006, 11:27 PM
I agree with JO.

Tinsley and Harrison should be in next season's starting lineup, for a new coaching staff. And that includes an appropriate big-man coach for David.

Did JO actually say this?

I thought it was just UB hatin' on David again. (;)) Now I'm a little confused.

Kegboy
05-04-2006, 11:28 PM
And that includes an appropriate big-man coach for David.

Jay, are you with me on Paul Silas, as an assistant that is. He's a Celtic, so he'd meet Larry's approval. Even with Rick still around, I think he'd do wonders for this team.

Anthem
05-04-2006, 11:28 PM
Tinsley and Harrison should be in next season's starting lineup
What makes you think Tins can stay healthy?

I've got nothing against the guy, but I said at the beginning of the season that this was it for me. Time to move on.

Unclebuck
05-04-2006, 11:29 PM
I agree with JO.

Tinsley and Harrison should be in next season's starting lineup, for a new coaching staff. And that includes an appropriate big-man coach for David.


But for how many games. 15 is about all that Tinsley can play and all those are in November.

Insanity I tell you. Tinsley is gone

CableKC
05-04-2006, 11:30 PM
What does JO think we need. We need a center


J.O. said the team gets along well off the court. He never said they get along well on the court

AJ can be a starting point guard, either here or someplace else.
Jamaal is still our starting point guard right now.

J.O is delusional

This was in the Press Conference?

ChicagoJ
05-04-2006, 11:30 PM
Did JO actually say this?

I thought it was just UB hatin' on David again. (;)) Now I'm a little confused.

I dunno. Don't quote me. I was more responding to UB's latest effort at "most humerous."

:flirt:

owl
05-04-2006, 11:30 PM
I know you've been talking up Williams, but isn't he the guy that Killingsworth owned back in November?


I look at his game for 4 years in the ACC. He is not a savior but he will
be a good player for a long time. Once again he is better than any center
the Pacers currently have. If not him then another player that I find
at least intruiging is Saer Sene. Unfortunately he is more of a project.


owl

Unclebuck
05-04-2006, 11:31 PM
This was in the Press Conference?



Yes it was

ChicagoJ
05-04-2006, 11:31 PM
But for how many games. 15 is about all that Tinsley can play and all those are in November.

Insanity I tell you. Tinsley is gone

Then we've got to get a PG as good as Tinsley, but durable.

That'll take a blockbuster trade. Are you willing to give up Granger?

owl
05-04-2006, 11:32 PM
But for how many games. 15 is about all that Tinsley can play and all those are in November.

Insanity I tell you. Tinsley is gone

I hope you are right about Tinsley.


owl

ChicagoJ
05-04-2006, 11:32 PM
Jay, are you with me on Paul Silas, as an assistant that is. He's a Celtic, so he'd meet Larry's approval. Even with Rick still around, I think he'd do wonders for this team.

Okay with Silas.

I'd rather steal Cartwright (as an assistant) from NJ.

JVG and Patrick would be a nice combination.

larry
05-04-2006, 11:33 PM
Foster is a good garbage player. Ben Wallace is the best right now. DD was the same type of guy. The Bulls had Grant/Rodman in the Jordan era. I love a guy that grabs boards and hustles. I'm afraid after the injuries Jeff is past his prime. He is too thin to bang w/ the NBA bigs. His injuries will only get worse from here on out. He is more important than the stats indicate.

Shade
05-04-2006, 11:35 PM
I have to agree with you there. Trade Harrison and Foster to GS for
there pick which becomes Shelden Williams. He does all three things
that a center should do well. Rebounds, blocks shots and scores and
has a head for the game and does not complain. He is better than
Harrison already.

But that still leaves a big problem with shooting and in particular the
shooting guard. I do not foresee the Pacers getting anyone who is good
so in the second round James White.

owl

Shelden Williams is great...against players smaller than him. Marco freakin' Killingsworth made him look like a scrub.

CableKC
05-04-2006, 11:37 PM
From a the standpoint of being a team guy, JO is slapping AJ in the face with this comment IMO.
I agree. He says nothing of the one guy on the team that essentially did the job that he was supposed to do today.....actually show up to Game 6 and actually produce.

Kegboy
05-04-2006, 11:43 PM
Okay with Silas.

I'd rather steal Cartwright (as an assistant) from NJ.

JVG and Patrick would be a nice combination.

We definitely disagree where Jeff is concerned. Ewing would be great, but as I said at the forum party, there's too much bad blood between him and our fans for that to ever happen.

As for Cartwright, think Thorn would be interested in trading him straight up for O'Neill? Hell, if we need to throw in Forcier to make the numbers match, that's fine too.

:cool:

ChicagoJ
05-04-2006, 11:45 PM
We definitely disagree where Jeff is concerned. Ewing would be great, but as I said at the forum party, there's too much bad blood between him and our fans for that to ever happen.

As for Cartwright, think Thorn would be interested in trading him straight up for O'Neill? Hell, if we need to throw in Forcier to make the numbers match, that's fine too.

:cool:

Not this fan. I :love: JVG.

Not sure he's right for this team, but that's a different discussion.

Kegboy
05-04-2006, 11:49 PM
Not this fan. I :love: JVG.

Not sure he's right for this team, but that's a different discussion.

I meant bad blood between Ewing and our fans. JVG would be accepted here just fine. I just don't like his system.

D-BONE
05-04-2006, 11:50 PM
I agree. He says nothing of the one guy on the team that essentially did the job that he was supposed to do today.....actually show up to Game 6 and actually produce.

Yeah. For me, of all the post-game press conference stuff thrown around, this is the most telling quote. This is supposed to the be the franchise guy? The TEAM leader?

Bottom line is now the entire year is done, I think AJ is the MVP hands down. No props from the main man though.

CableKC
05-04-2006, 11:52 PM
Then we've got to get a PG as good as Tinsley, but durable.

That'll take a blockbuster trade. Are you willing to give up Granger?

No....cuz I would much rather live with AJ as the starting PG and keeping Granger then live with the seeing Granger become an all-star on another roster.

Granger is our Luke Skywalker to JONeal's Darth Vader....he is our last best hope for the future.

CableKC
05-04-2006, 11:55 PM
Foster is a good garbage player. Ben Wallace is the best right now. DD was the same type of guy. The Bulls had Grant/Rodman in the Jordan era. I love a guy that grabs boards and hustles. I'm afraid after the injuries Jeff is past his prime. He is too thin to bang w/ the NBA bigs. His injuries will only get worse from here on out. He is more important than the stats indicate.
<< COUGH >> << COUGH >> Francisco Elson << COUGH >><< COUGH >>

CableKC
05-04-2006, 11:59 PM
Yeah. For me, of all the post-game press conference stuff thrown around, this is the most telling quote. This is supposed to the be the franchise guy? The TEAM leader?

Bottom line is now the entire year is done, I think AJ is the MVP hands down. No props from the main man though.

I don't have as much of a concern that he didn't give AJ props in this game as he said that Tinsley....the guy that I feel quit on the team.....AND NOT AJ should be the starting PG.

Anyone else thinks that Tinsley isn't injured but on an "unofficial" suspension "a la" KMart and the Nuggets in the last couple of weeks?

D-BONE
05-05-2006, 12:02 AM
I don't have as much of a concern that he didn't give AJ props in this game as he said that Tinsley....the guy that I feel quit on the team.....AND NOT AJ should be the starting PG.

Anyone else thinks that Tinsley isn't injured but on an "unofficial" suspension "a la" KMart and the Nuggets in the last couple of weeks?

Certainly, that's one thing that you must question about JO's statement. Indirectly, he also implies a complete lack or respect to the yeoman's job AJ has done in Tin's absence the last two years. Especially following an outstanding playoff performance.

Jermaniac
05-05-2006, 12:03 AM
I don't have as much of a concern that he didn't give AJ props in this game as he said that Tinsley....the guy that I feel quit on the team.....AND NOT AJ should be the starting PG.

Anyone else thinks that Tinsley isn't injured but on an "unofficial" suspension "a la" KMart and the Nuggets in the last couple of weeks?

Yeah thats what it is. He was suspended the last couple of weeks but he played in game 2 but was too hurt and the team shut him down. Yeah suspension, suspended but he is in the locker room with the team the whole series. Jamaal Tinsley was hurt, quit trying to pin **** on this man like everytime he sneezes a world war breaks out.

Unclebuck
05-05-2006, 12:05 AM
I'd love to have JVG. But his system is very much like Rick's which of course is find with me. Jeff's personality is different and I think his practices are a little tougher.

Listening to JVG last nightcriticize the Wizards defense and especially their transition defense put a smile on my face, and then when he talked about how the guards and small forwards need to get back on defense before the other team gets the ball, I turned giddy.

CableKC
05-05-2006, 12:10 AM
Jamaal Tinsley was hurt, quit trying to pin **** on this man like everytime he sneezes a world war breaks out.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was capable of that....:rolleyes: Everyone is to blame on the Pacers roster....

Kegboy
05-05-2006, 12:16 AM
Anyone else thinks that Tinsley isn't injured but on an "unofficial" suspension "a la" KMart and the Nuggets in the last couple of weeks?

As my sister repeatedly points out, saying "he's injury prone" as opposed to "he has an attitude problem" hurts his trade value significantly.

waxman
05-05-2006, 12:39 AM
Not to question UB...but... I did watch the NBATV post game press conference... and maybe i missed it... but i don't recall JO mentioning Jamaal as still being our starting point guard. I heard the comments about AJ and that he is starting caliber for us or any team. I did not here the Jamaal comment... Maybe I saw an edited version.

can anyone else confirm one way or the other?


If he did, I apologize if it seems i'm questioning anyones integrity.

Los Angeles
05-05-2006, 01:38 AM
You know, I hear way more people complaining about the "Tinsley isn't hurt" myth than I ever heard people actually saying it. I mean really - this is like some kind of bomb scare or something. THERE IS NO BOMB.

JO was 100% out of line with his comments. What "chemistry" he may have had with all the centers and PGs on this team he just lost. Further, if he had played even 75% of the last two seasons, he might be in a position to make these kinds of "I'm the GM and I know what's what" statements.

He just wore out his welcome with me. Don't let the door hit your fade-away airball *** on the way out, JO.

I feel like it's September and the forum is tearing itself apart already.

:kickcan:

Hoop
05-05-2006, 02:16 AM
JO needs to worry about his own damn game and leave the starting lineup and personal to the coach's and management.

Right now every time I think of JO, I see him getting his weak @ss girly put-back attempt (that could have tied the game) blocked by a SG/SF.

I'd also like to see him change his stupid freethrow style. I've never seen anybody have any real success the way he shoots them.

Big Smooth
05-05-2006, 04:42 AM
You need a big guy who can step out and hit from about 15 feet and make teams pay for doubling him. On crossing baseline screens and doubles that's as effective as hitting 3's to open up some space.

He's confused about Tinsley though, at least for now. That job's AJ's to lose.

*cough* Brad Miller *cough* :D

Eindar
05-05-2006, 05:59 AM
A horrible series for him. Add 3 boards and you'd have an over-achieving Jeff Foster in any playoff series with legit big men. Or you could look to Scot, who Rick doesn't even play 2/3 of the time. Or Harrison, the walking foul.

Not to mention that Brad Miller makes as much as all 3 of them combined and disappears EVERY YEAR in the playoffs. C'mon Hicks, I expected more from you than this. It's one thing to have a man-crush on a guy who played HS, college, and pro ball in-state. It's quite another to put on the blinders to such an extent that you don't see something that's so obvious.

Show me one playoff series where Brad Miller elevated his game. I know he had a couple of good games his first year with Sacramento, but I want you to show me statistical evidence that Brad Miller has every had a playoff series where he was as good as or better than his season averages. And don't give me any crap about foot injuries or other players taking over. There's 10+ million reasons why I'm not accepting that line.

Mourning
05-05-2006, 08:51 AM
I don't understand something, so maybe someone can explain it to me.

It seems a lot of fans and our players aswell don't like our offense, particularly the way it was before january. I aggree with that. But, then some of the biggest critics of Carlisle come up on here and start advocating for basically one if not THE most defensive minded coach in the NBA in Jeff van Gundy. It seems to me the guy is an expert of defensive plays, but his offense ... well let's just say I don't like to look at his offense either.

So, what am I missing here? I know the guy has great credentials and again is one of the defensive master coaches in the game.

I think we are going to get some pretty significant players and personally I would like it most if we try to pick up young talent, like we picked up JO forinstance. Now the chance of a repeat of that are not that great, but I still like it a lot better then continuing with this group of players that's slowly starting to move into their prime (on average) and in a few years when we are supposed to be good again ... they will be aging, while we need players in their prime then.

What this means for me is that we need a coach that knows how to effectively communicate with young players, has their respect and can enforce them to respect him, knows a lot about fundamentally playing basketball, so he can teach them and is good at making the team a tight-knit unit, looks towards developing our talent and last but not least knows the X's and O's decently (doesn't have to be a master). Get me that coach and I would be happy, regardless of his name. Oh yeah, one more thing ... I prefer it not be a college basketball coach coming to the NBA.

Oh, and with regards to JO's comments ... I think he REALLY needs to shut up and talk with management indoors before damaging our team structure even further by failing to mention the player who could arguably be called the co-MVP of our team in the Nets-series this year, namely AJ, by calling freaking Jamaal Tinjury the starter.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Pacersin6
05-05-2006, 09:09 AM
I don't have as much of a concern that he didn't give AJ props in this game as he said that Tinsley....the guy that I feel quit on the team.....AND NOT AJ should be the starting PG.

Anyone else thinks that Tinsley isn't injured but on an "unofficial" suspension "a la" KMart and the Nuggets in the last couple of weeks?


Just a quick comment on this. I have never been a big Tinsley fan and think he should be traded, however, when I was walking up to game 4 on Saturday he was on the practice court trying to work out his injuries and he was clearly in some pain. I don't like to defend him, but I did see this and am convinced THIS time it was a legitimate.

Hicks
05-05-2006, 10:58 AM
Not to mention that Brad Miller makes as much as all 3 of them combined and disappears EVERY YEAR in the playoffs. C'mon Hicks, I expected more from you than this. It's one thing to have a man-crush on a guy who played HS, college, and pro ball in-state. It's quite another to put on the blinders to such an extent that you don't see something that's so obvious.

Show me one playoff series where Brad Miller elevated his game. I know he had a couple of good games his first year with Sacramento, but I want you to show me statistical evidence that Brad Miller has every had a playoff series where he was as good as or better than his season averages. And don't give me any crap about foot injuries or other players taking over. There's 10+ million reasons why I'm not accepting that line.

First of all, 99% of players in the NBA have their stats go DOWN in the playoffs. Guys like Reggie Miller are the exception to the rule. Brad is not a superstar. Duh. It's amazing to me still that a very good center in today's league getting overpaid (which you have to do to keep them) is so outrageous and unthinkable to so many people, and raises their expectations of him to those of a franchise player. Furthermore, the myth that he never shows up is just exactly that. A myth. I've compiled the stats before, it's time for someone else to do it. He's had plenty of very nice games in the playoffs. Is it every game? No. Is it more consistent that I just saw Jermaine O'Neal? Yes.

The guy isn't perfect. Some of the expectations thrown against Brad to knock my complaints are out of this world. You have to overpay to keep good centers, he brings a lot to the table, he's not a superstar, or even close. He should be your 3rd or 4th best player. 3rd or 4th best players don't lead teams through the playoffs. 3rd or 4th best players don't raise their stats in the playoffs. 3rd or 4th best players have noticable flaws in their games.

Rinuven
05-05-2006, 11:17 AM
What does JO think we need. We need a center


J.O. said the team gets along well off the court. He never said they get along well on the court

AJ can be a starting point guard, either here or someplace else.
Jamaal is still our starting point guard right now.

J.O is delusional

Does anybody have a link to confirm either of these statements? If they are true, at a minimum it shows just how disjointed this group of guys really is. If I'm on a team with any of you, and I'm really focused on trying to make this thing work, I don't use the press as my medium to communicate that to you. If they are true, then the offseason changes are probably going to be much more numerous than I anticipated.

~Rin~

Since86
05-05-2006, 11:43 AM
Shelden Williams is great...against players smaller than him. Marco freakin' Killingsworth made him look like a scrub.

Shelden put up 23 on LaMarcus Aldridge, 21 on Cedric Simmons, 21 on Craig Smith, 23 on Big Baby.

I went just for the big named post players this year.

Whether you like him or not, most of the time he's not like simply because of where he played, he averaged 19 and 10, on 58% shooting. Oh, and he happens to play in the toughest college basketball conference, not to mention he averaged a double-double as a jr. and was 1.5 rebounds away from averaging that as a soph as well.

OnlyPacersLeft
05-05-2006, 01:17 PM
he's behind tinsley? oh great...it probably means he's out the door aswell....cause I'm sure LB and Donnie would rather have AJ after last nights performance...damnit man...please don't trade JO :(

Eindar
05-05-2006, 04:24 PM
First of all, 99% of players in the NBA have their stats go DOWN in the playoffs. Guys like Reggie Miller are the exception to the rule. Brad is not a superstar. Duh. It's amazing to me still that a very good center in today's league getting overpaid (which you have to do to keep them) is so outrageous and unthinkable to so many people, and raises their expectations of him to those of a franchise player. Furthermore, the myth that he never shows up is just exactly that. A myth. I've compiled the stats before, it's time for someone else to do it. He's had plenty of very nice games in the playoffs. Is it every game? No. Is it more consistent that I just saw Jermaine O'Neal? Yes.

The guy isn't perfect. Some of the expectations thrown against Brad to knock my complaints are out of this world. You have to overpay to keep good centers, he brings a lot to the table, he's not a superstar, or even close. He should be your 3rd or 4th best player. 3rd or 4th best players don't lead teams through the playoffs. 3rd or 4th best players don't raise their stats in the playoffs. 3rd or 4th best players have noticable flaws in their games.

And 3rd or 4th best players, in reality, shouldn't be making 10+ million per season. It happens, but those are teams that are paying a guy who is very important to their team, like Tayshaun Prince. Yes, Centers get overpaid, especially ones with big bodies who can guard other big men in the post. However, it's not neccessary in today's league. There are only 2 true Centers that you have to worry about him burning your team: Yao and Shaq. Those 2 guys, one of which didn't make the playoffs, the other will be retired soon, aren't enough to warrant throwing around 8 figures to guys who won't earn it.

As for Brad having a good game here, a good game there, I believe that. The problem is, it's been a total of like...3 games out of 37 tries. And it's not just that his stats take a dip in the playoffs, they take a total DIVE. He not only is well below his stats for that particular season, but he's even below his career averages, which include his time with Charlotte and Chicago, when he wasn't getting much burn and wasn't putting up great numbers anyways. And those are just the tangible stats. How about his defense when he's got Plantar Faciitis (sp?), or a bum ankle or whatever. The fact is, he enters the playoffs injured almost every season. And the 1 or 2 times he hasn't been injured, his play has been spotty at best. Say what you want about JO, but he goes hard against the best defensive assignment from the opposing team every night, often getting doubled or even tripled in the post. That alone removes him from comparison with Brad Miller in terms of consistency.

I think we'll never see eye-to-eye on this, but let me state my point, so you understand my stance more clearly. I would rather spend that kind of money on a durable "hustle" big man, and in addition get a swingman who can put up 15-20ppg, or put that money towards getting a starting caliber PG. Or, if I'm going to spend that kind of money on my Center, he needs to be durable. I'm going to use Chris Kaman as my yardstick of the type of guy I'd pay Brad Miller money to, and hope it doesn't burn me 3 years down the road.

J_2_Da_IzzO
05-05-2006, 05:57 PM
It is so obvious that we need another big man that can block or intimidate shooters. How many times have we seen JO go out and the opposing teams players take advantage of that and just get into the lane for easy layups.

We also should try and get Cassell somehow. He is a player that doesnt mind taking a back seat which is what we need. Jackson & Tinsley both have times they want to and try being the number one guy.

Cassell
Jackson
Granger
JO
Nazr

That team would be imo a solid team. I dont really want to keep Jackson but I also dont see who we can get for him. Peja can be signed and traded for a backup SF or maybe a starting SG.

NorCal_Pacerfan
05-05-2006, 07:15 PM
If JO is still behind Tinsley after this season, then I just lost a notch of respect for JO's point of view. Tinsley should be released, traded, cut, fired, shipped out and/or sold to the hightest bidder. If JO wants to play with Tinsley so bad, then maybe JO should be traded along with Tinsley.

ChicagoJ
05-05-2006, 07:20 PM
I thought you were against complete rebuilding.

Just saw this...

I am the author of the "15 new players thread."

I have no problem with a complete rebuilding. Don't think its realistic, but I've got no problem with it.

If management traded JO, Harrison and Tinsley (the three guys I probably defend the most), I'd ultimately be okay with it (assuming, of course, they got a big time talent, a true C, and a true PG in return.)

I just think those three things are awfully hard to replace. Not every team has a big-time talent, a legit C, and a true PG in the first place.

OTOH, I'd like to see what a different coach could do with those three variables (plus Granger, of course.)

Peck
05-05-2006, 11:13 PM
And 3rd or 4th best players, in reality, shouldn't be making 10+ million per season. It happens, but those are teams that are paying a guy who is very important to their team, like Tayshaun Prince. Yes, Centers get overpaid, especially ones with big bodies who can guard other big men in the post. However, it's not neccessary in today's league. There are only 2 true Centers that you have to worry about him burning your team: Yao and Shaq. Those 2 guys, one of which didn't make the playoffs, the other will be retired soon, aren't enough to warrant throwing around 8 figures to guys who won't earn it.

As for Brad having a good game here, a good game there, I believe that. The problem is, it's been a total of like...3 games out of 37 tries. And it's not just that his stats take a dip in the playoffs, they take a total DIVE. He not only is well below his stats for that particular season, but he's even below his career averages, which include his time with Charlotte and Chicago, when he wasn't getting much burn and wasn't putting up great numbers anyways. And those are just the tangible stats. How about his defense when he's got Plantar Faciitis (sp?), or a bum ankle or whatever. The fact is, he enters the playoffs injured almost every season. And the 1 or 2 times he hasn't been injured, his play has been spotty at best. Say what you want about JO, but he goes hard against the best defensive assignment from the opposing team every night, often getting doubled or even tripled in the post. That alone removes him from comparison with Brad Miller in terms of consistency.

I think we'll never see eye-to-eye on this, but let me state my point, so you understand my stance more clearly. I would rather spend that kind of money on a durable "hustle" big man, and in addition get a swingman who can put up 15-20ppg, or put that money towards getting a starting caliber PG. Or, if I'm going to spend that kind of money on my Center, he needs to be durable. I'm going to use Chris Kaman as my yardstick of the type of guy I'd pay Brad Miller money to, and hope it doesn't burn me 3 years down the road.


I'm staying out of the Brad debate, because everybody knows where I stand on this issue.

But I want to take issue with what you've stated that I bolded.

Only two?

I don't know about you but I've seen enough of Eddy Curry when he was with the Bulls beating up one side & down the other. He's not a defensive stud nor does he grab the rebounds he should but we cannot stop the guy in the low post.

Nenad Krystic just abused us in this series. Now he is not a power center by any means but this guy isn't just a outside center either.

Dwight Howard is a monster. If you want to call him a power forward fine, but either way he is a monster.

Laugh all you want but I'll tell you that one of the reasons the Hawks swept us this year was because of Zaza Pachulia. This guy is big & rough as well & he has given us fits all season long.

Andrew Bogut is decent & in the next few years I think he will be very good.

Your boy Kaman can be a handfull.

Brad Miller is one hell of a center who seems to have his way with us.

Michael Sweetney is a horse.

In fact if anything I think you are starting to see a re-emergence of true centers again. Remember the 80's were an anomaly of true centers but back in the 70's Dave Cowans was considered a big man & he was barely 6'9" tall. Wes Unseld was 6'7" & Willis Reed was 6'8" tall.

Next season Nene will be back so he will add some beef to somebody & let's not forget our own David Harrison. I've seen Wizards fans talk about him & trust me they would take him off of our hands if we don't want him.

Oh yea Brendan Haywood, who for whatever reason decides to be Pat Ewing whenever he plays us.

While there are no Shaq like players out there to say you don't have to worry about big men in the NBA is just wrong IMO.

Sollozzo
05-06-2006, 02:21 AM
I agree with JO.

Tinsley and Harrison should be in next season's starting lineup, for a new coaching staff. And that includes an appropriate big-man coach for David.



I don't understand. Last year, you correctly called the board out for not being able to see the forest for the trees with the Artest situation, but with this situation, it seems like you're about the only one on here that can't see the obvious with Tinsley. You can't count on him at all. How can you hand someone the starting job to someone who played in half of the games and wasn't able to give you anything when it counted? Johnson has earned the spot if its the same cast of PG's

He needs to be traded. Obviously no NBA GM is going to give you much for a player who has taken the past 2 years to play a full seasons worth of games. It's going to cost us someone else. I bet we could find someone interested in Harrison.

wooolus
05-06-2006, 03:12 AM
Is talking about NBA Live 2007? Cause, that's prolly the only place that tins is still our starting 1