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View Full Version : How long will this turn around take?



Jose Slaughter
04-14-2006, 10:27 AM
There will be no poll.

At the last party, while at Perkins, nearly everyone was in agreement that they didn't trust Bird to turn this mess around.

So, will it be up to Walsh?

Is Walsh bold enough to make the changes that you think should be made?

Will Bird step up & be the man now?

If not Walsh or Bird, how long do we wait to bring in another new guy?

Finally the question I really want to ask.....

Best case & worse case, how long will it take the Pacers to get back to challenging for a title?

Hicks
04-14-2006, 10:33 AM
Best case scenario: We clean house with the knuckleheads, the new guys have great attitudes and the team just strikes a chord right away, and we're in contention next year with a fresh start.

Worst case scenario: The things we're reading about all the turmoil involving the players and the coaches is irrepairable and a tabula rasa is needed to fix this, forcing a long rebuilding period that takes anywhere from 3 to 5 years.

ChicagoJ
04-14-2006, 10:46 AM
The other relevant question:

How far will the the team fall?

Anthem
04-14-2006, 11:21 AM
The other relevant question:

How far will the the team fall?
This is as far down as we go. We've hit rock bottom.

brichard
04-14-2006, 11:23 AM
We need one of 2 things to happen, and perhaps both.

One scenario is that we get a new coach ala Larry Brown who tears the team down and builds them up. It would have to be a coach who imposes his will on the team regardless of their pre-conceived notions.

The second scenario is that we bring in a veteran player with leadership. A person of this type will hopefully create that synnergy (1+1=3) that is sorely lacking on this team. In order to get this person we will have to ship out some of the cancers on this team, which also should make us better from day one.

How quickly we turn around depends on when the change(s) is/are made and how good each person is at their role. I'd say probably 2 seasons. One year to figure how to play with each other and another year to elevate to a playoff contender.

RWB
04-14-2006, 11:34 AM
Bring in some vets for real leadership and we would return to pretender/contender next season. I suspect Detroit will again dominate next year, but after that they have to find the money to sign Billups. The Heat's window will be closing soon I think.

Of course the Cavs and Bulls will be pretty good by then so maybe we're destined to be a pretender only for awhile.

beast23
04-14-2006, 11:43 AM
I'd say probably 2 seasons. One year to figure how to play with each other and another year to elevate to a playoff contender.
Realistically, that's probably the best case scenario.

But that also assumes that we get most of the players we need during the summer, then obtain the finishing touch or two before the trading deadline next season.

In viewing the rebuilding that will go on, one thing that I'm beginning to fear is that Croshere will be the perfect piece next season (huge expiriing contract coupled with decent talent) to make that final trade at the trading deadline. I think many of us have really come to appreciate Croshere for the professional that he is, his perseverance, his leadership abilities and the re-emergence of his talents.

SoupIsGood
04-14-2006, 11:55 AM
I trust Bird.

Bball
04-14-2006, 12:02 PM
There will be no poll.

At the last party, while at Perkins, nearly everyone was in agreement that they didn't trust Bird to turn this mess around.


So, will it be up to Walsh?

No idea.




Is Walsh bold enough to make the changes that you think should be made?


No



Will Bird step up & be the man now?


No idea.... but he might as well because Walsh won't do it and we don't have a Reggie Miller type leader to pull the troops together right now. "Patience" is what has gotten us into this mess, it won't be what gets us out. Not if we want out in a hurry.




If not Walsh or Bird, how long do we wait to bring in another new guy?


Decade, maybe...



Finally the question I really want to ask.....

Best case & worse case, how long will it take the Pacers to get back to challenging for a title?

Best case... next season...
That would mean Larry knows what he's doing, we can't believe what he's told the media, and DW steps back and doesn't interfere and drag out the inevitable (Always preaching patience). (And even in this case, 'serious contention' would be 2-3 years out).

Worst case...
A long time. DW will be too patient and Bird will be timid, deferring the Walsh. Problems will fester. Walsh will stay on longer since things are in such a mess. We'll only make half-way measures. The local media will not kick the team when it's down nor will the Teflon Don get much scrutiny so there will be no burning urgency to get this team back to anything but being a potential playoff team.

------------

One thing we need to remember... The Eastern conference nor the NBA will stop and wait on the Pacers. Other teams will get better and stronger around us.
-Bball

Gamble
04-14-2006, 12:08 PM
As far as I can see we will stay a subcontender for awhile and by luck we
will make the ecf in about 3 years if Dw and Larry keep things from totally
burning.

Ragnar
04-14-2006, 12:20 PM
Since they are keeping Rick and trading our talented players we are in for a long road of being just good enough to make the playoffs and not get any good picks but not good enough to do any damage in the playoffs.

SoupIsGood
04-14-2006, 12:26 PM
Since they are keeping Rick and trading our talented players we are in for a long road of being just good enough to make the playoffs and not get any good picks but not good enough to do any damage in the playoffs.

Talented but stupid players.

We saw what happens when you build around only talent - it failed badly.

D-BONE
04-14-2006, 12:33 PM
Bring in some vets for real leadership and we would return to pretender/contender next season. I suspect Detroit will again dominate next year, but after that they have to find the money to sign Billups. The Heat's window will be closing soon I think.

Of course the Cavs and Bulls will be pretty good by then so maybe we're destined to be a pretender only for awhile.

Agree. Leadership is the key. If you can import a couple fairly good/stable types for this role, we may be able to steady quickly and not stay in our current limbo or fall even farther. Not saying will be NBA finals material next year, but potentially better than this year's debacle.

The void is not just present among the players either. If a leader emerges or is brought in (amongst players), that could stabilize the relationship between team and RC. On the other hand, the leadership issue may need addressing on both sides. I definitely don't feel like there's a good presence on the roster player-wise and I think you've gotta have that for things to work w/ RC b/c I don't see it as his forte.

ChicagoJ
04-14-2006, 12:35 PM
This is as far down as we go. We've hit rock bottom.

I think that depends on what happens with the PG position.

Slick Pinkham
04-14-2006, 12:46 PM
Fixing Jay's statement,

I think that depends on what happens with the PG and SG positions. Our backcourt sucks, starters, backups, 3rd string. We need a total backcourt makeover.

Larry will do it.

I have faith.

< have some more Kool-Aid.

Chauncey
04-14-2006, 12:50 PM
2-3 years to be a legitimate championship contender

ChicagoJ
04-14-2006, 12:53 PM
SGs are somewhat dime-per-dozen.

SJax needs to go away, that's for sure. But I can think of a long list of names to plug in that position.

PG. Not so much. If Tinsley's gone, the guys I'm interested in are going to cost us a lot in a trade. And that's okay... if TPTB are committed to getting a top-caliber PG and paying the cost. I'm afraid they're going to try to leave it in the hands of an inferior PG for a year or two.

Unclebuck
04-14-2006, 12:55 PM
PG. Not so much. If Tinsley's gone, the guys I'm interested in are going to cost us a lot in a trade. And that's okay... if TPTB are committed to getting a top-caliber PG and paying the cost. I'm afraid they're going to try to leave it in the hands of an inferior PG for a year or two.


I'd be interested in who you have in mind

ChicagoJ
04-14-2006, 01:11 PM
At PG? Problem is there aren't many to pick from and the ones I'd take will cost an arm and a leg. Or a Granger.

I wouldn't complain about a blockbuster for:

Nash
Parker

But those would be huge, multi-player trades and impossible to vision

I could live with:

Antonio Daniels
Hinrich (I think he's overrated)
Andre Miller

I'd take a flyer on:

Jay Williams
Marko Jaric

Not my kind of player, but if we really changed direction then I'd be okay with:

Jason Terry
Steve Francis
Baron Davis

But those would be team-changing, blockbuster deals so they're, again, hard to picture.

I DO NOT want any of the following as starting PGs for next season

Mike James
Anthony Johnson
Saras
Delonte West
Mark Jackson
Sam Cassell (age)
Jason Kidd (age)
Travis Best
Tyronne Lue
Jamison Brewer

There are a couple of young players that I would consider if we are entering "rebuilding mode". Such as Jarrett Jack and Chris Paul, but if we get a player like that we need to set our sights at 0.500 for next season while we rebuild around them.

blanket
04-14-2006, 01:31 PM
Utah might make Deron Williams available this summer (although I'm not sure who they'd want and we'd be willing to give up in return).

Any interest?

Hicks
04-14-2006, 01:48 PM
Why would they trade him?

blanket
04-14-2006, 01:50 PM
Why would they trade him?

Don't recall the article that came out a month or so ago, but they feel he's a bad fit, apparantly. :whoknows:

McClintic Sphere
04-14-2006, 02:01 PM
After watching the collapse or relocation of our "young stars of the future": Bender, Harrington, Artest, and Tinsley, my enthusiasm for a rebuilding project is DOA.

Los Angeles
04-14-2006, 03:27 PM
Best case scenario: We clean house with the knuckleheads, the new guys have great attitudes and the team just strikes a chord right away, and we're in contention next year with a fresh start.

Worst case scenario: The things we're reading about all the turmoil involving the players and the coaches is irrepairable and a tabula rasa is needed to fix this, forcing a long rebuilding period that takes anywhere from 3 to 5 years.
Good post - I hope for the former but think the latter is more likely.

Moses
04-14-2006, 03:46 PM
I think everyone here is over-reacting pretty badly.

We aren't going to rebuild. Some players will be dealt and we may change coaches..But you're insane if you think Walsh is going to turn into a hotshot crazy GM and trade away JO and not attempt to resign Peja or a marquee free agent SG. I think the most likely course of action this team will take is to deal Jackson and Tinsley and probably resign a free agent 2 guard this summer who is actually good. I don't think we are going to resign Peja because he's going to ask for way to much money but we should be able to get a marquee free agent instead.

aceace
04-14-2006, 03:56 PM
Everything will turn around in about 4 more games thats when the reg season ends and the new season begins.

FrenchConnection
04-14-2006, 04:27 PM
I think everyone here is over-reacting pretty badly.

We aren't going to rebuild. Some players will be dealt and we may change coaches..But you're insane if you think Walsh is going to turn into a hotshot crazy GM and trade away JO and not attempt to resign Peja or a marquee free agent SG. I think the most likely course of action this team will take is to deal Jackson and Tinsley and probably resign a free agent 2 guard this summer who is actually good. I don't think we are going to resign Peja because he's going to ask for way to much money but we should be able to get a marquee free agent instead.

We don't have any cap space to sign any free agents and I doubt that a "marquee 2 guard" is going to take the MLE. We had better resign Peja, as the only reason that we can sign a player that good is because we hold his Bird Rights. If we had cap space, this would be another story, but we don't and will not unless we do a salary dump, which would spell a terrible year next year.

bulletproof
04-14-2006, 04:37 PM
No idea.... but he might as well because Walsh won't do it and we don't have a Reggie Miller type leader to pull the troops together right now. "Patience" is what has gotten us into this mess, it won't be what gets us out. Not if we want out in a hurry.

Honestly man, it's getting tiresome. You're poison—our equivalent of a locker room cancer. And it's a shame, too, because you possess real basketball knowledge. Unfortunately it's more often than not tainted with loaded words and a fuzzy, warped perspective. You act as if the Pacers have been a ghost ship while Walsh has been GM.

Mourning
04-14-2006, 04:46 PM
I could live with:

Antonio Daniels
Hinrich (I think he's overrated)
Andre Miller

Those are EXACTLY the three players I have had in mind for sometime now.


I'd take a flyer on:

Jay Williams
Marko Jaric

I wouldn't try either. I don't think Jaric has what it takes to be very effective for us, while I also doubt his half court ability.

Jay Williams: I respect the guy enormously making a comeback after that horrendous injury he sustained from that motorcycle accident a few years ago.

I wouldn't mind to see him on our summer league team, but I don't want our team to sign him. I'm just to scared he'll get some injury or something else happens, I mean this is the Pacers we are talking him about joining.


Not my kind of player, but if we really changed direction then I'd be okay with:

Jason Terry
Steve Francis
Baron Davis

I would take my chance possibly with Terry, I didn't really like his defense when he was with the Hawks, but maybe he's improved a lot over the years, I honestly don't know, I don't get to see a lot of Dallas games.

However, I wouldn't touch either Francis (bad attitude, egocentrical play, bad shot selection, huge salary) OR Davis (injury prone, huge salary, BAD shot selection, egocentrical play, rumours of not beying a very good teammate) and I wouldn't want to think about what we would have to give up for either of them :shudder:.

One name you didn't mention (and I know you would hate btw Jay :D:D:D) is Brevin Knight. I'm not sold on him, but he's better then anything we have now. How does he perform in the halfcourt set? Offcourse, he DID have a history of injury.

Last name I want to bring up is Jameer Nelson. Any thoughts about this kid? Offcourse, only a very small chance that Orlando would be willing to let him go.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Unclebuck
04-14-2006, 05:27 PM
Last name I want to bring up is Jameer Nelson. Any thoughts about this kid? Offcourse, only a very small chance that Orlando would be willing to let him go.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:


He's pretty much untouchable now, as he's been one of the biggest reasons why the magic have won 6 straight


Jay, what is wrong with Delonte West? I'm impressed with him.

The key thing is the Pacers must acquire a shooting guard and point guard who fit together, and play well together. One needs to be a creator, dynamic scorer, and the other one can be more of a spot up shooter. But they both need to be good defenders.

Los Angeles
04-14-2006, 05:36 PM
UB - I like your request of a backcourt that plays well together.

Call me crazy, but I've come away feeling good about Gordon and Hinrich's play when they are on the floor together. In fact, I'd do nearly anything to get both of them.

I know, fat chance, right? :)

Jermaniac
04-14-2006, 05:38 PM
Delonte West isnt a PG, he is a SG in a PG's body. Marko Jaric sucks trust me you dont want this guy to run our team.



MOE WILLIAMS - GET ME MOE WILLIAMS. Thats my boy right there, I want him starting if Mel Mel is not.

Mourning
04-14-2006, 05:42 PM
He's pretty much untouchable now, as he's been one of the biggest reasons why the magic have won 6 straight


Jay, what is wrong with Delonte West? I'm impressed with him.

Ah, makes sense then. That's unfortunate (for us).

West is a superb defender and a decent shooter. I haven't seen enough of him to judge his ability to get over the court under pressure though.

Regards,

mourning :cool:

ChicagoJ
04-14-2006, 05:53 PM
West just hasn't knocked my socks off. He reminds me too much of AJ - a better shooter than ballhandler.

As for Jaric, I think I've seen all of his good games and none of his bad ones (and of course, none of his "injured" games.)

My point is, the PGs worth getting are going to take a pretty big trade and we're (most likely) going to have to commit ourselves to having a PG as the #2 scoring option. That's not been Pacers' basketball.

If we're really going to overhaul the team this summer, and change its focus, that's one thing. If we're going to have the same frontcourt and just a new backcourt, I'm not sure we'll be able to offer up enough to get the players on this list.

ChicagoJ
04-14-2006, 05:54 PM
Last name I want to bring up is Jameer Nelson. Any thoughts about this kid? Offcourse, only a very small chance that Orlando would be willing to let him go.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Of course, when I type quickly before a lunch meeting, I'm always going to forget somebody.

Bball
04-14-2006, 05:57 PM
Honestly man, it's getting tiresome. You're poison—our equivalent of a locker room cancer. And it's a shame, too, because you possess real basketball knowledge. Unfortunately it's more often than not tainted with loaded words and a fuzzy, warped perspective. You act as if the Pacers have been a ghost ship while Walsh has been GM.

I'm frustrated right now and I don't like what we are hearing from management. I'm hoping it's all camoflauge for a major shakeup but when they start talking about keeping the coach and JO's long future here it just makes me think we're taking too much off the table or pulling too many punches.

Maybe in the end those guys do stay, but I'd prefer it be open to intense debate and scrutiny this summer and I only hope it is and they are simply playing the media right now.

-Bball

Slick Pinkham
04-14-2006, 05:59 PM
Bobby Jackson and Brevin Knight are intriguing free agents. Both have good skills and also unfortunately have big injury histories, so counting on them to start seems risky. But would a piece of the MLE get either?

Brevin is by far the better playmaker and I think the better defender. Charlotte's system leads to gaudy assist numbers. He's always high in steals too, though.

One would be a great backup if affordable. They probably both want starter's jobs and starter's money, though.

Jermaniac
04-14-2006, 06:00 PM
I'm telling yall - MO WILLIAMS from the Bucks.

Slick Pinkham
04-14-2006, 07:49 PM
I'm telling yall - MO WILLIAMS from the Bucks.

He'd be great, but no way do they trade a guy due to make only 1.9 million next year to a division rival. They have an embarassment of riches in their backcourt with Redd, Ford, Bell, and Williams and even Simmons and Welsch who can play in the backcourt too. I can see one going out, but not in the division.

Mo is clutch!

Money on my fantasy team all year when not hurt.

Slick Pinkham
04-15-2006, 07:01 AM
A team with 3 good PGs and a ton of holes elsewhere is Portland. Assuming Telfair is their guy, Jarrett Jack would be a great acquisition. Steve Blake is a solid backup for them, so they still would have 2 good PGs. But would they want Jax?

Rebuilding starts in the backcourt.

Jose Slaughter
04-15-2006, 07:45 AM
I doubt they would touch Jackson with a ten foot pole.

They won't have anything to do with anyones "problem children".

Maybe a sign & trade with Fred Jones would interest them. But then we would have 5 point guards.

cariocapacer
04-15-2006, 11:30 AM
The Pacers strength is the loyalty in the organization. The Pacers weakness is the loyalty in the organization. The Simons will never let Walsh go. Walsh will never let Bird go. Bird will most likely stick with Carlisle. Walsh/Bird will never clean house. If the Pacers are to get better it will come from one or two trades only.

D-BONE
04-15-2006, 11:53 AM
I'd take just about any of the PGs mentioned as possible acquisitions in this thread (except the Starbury, Baron Davis types). I'm just fed up with being continously frustrated by JT's injury status. Here we go again! Twisted ankle last night.

I'm not blaming him for a twisted ankle. It's just old. AJ is AJ. Contributing role player and all but not what we need in a starter and then Saras, who knows? We need a stable, starting-quality guy, preferably that can play some hard-nosed D.

I don't think I can take one more year of our current PG nebula. Need a fresh option. SG is, of course, similar.