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View Full Version : McCosky: Stick a Fork in the Pacers



Kstat
04-11-2006, 05:06 AM
Figured this would make the rounds here eventually..

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060411/SPORTS0102/604110372/1127

Stick a fork in the Pacers

They've quit on Carlisle, and O'Neal is not a leader

Chris McCosky / The Detroit News

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Clarence Tabb Jr./The Detroit News

Jermaine O'Neal, who will be well paid through 2010, has All-Star talent but isn't a franchise player. go See full image


Fake leaders and fake tough guys. Not-ready-to-win players. That's what I see with the Pacers.

They have quit on Rick Carlisle. That seems obvious given their performances the last two weeks, especially their awful showing at The Palace on Sunday.

Oh, they may rally and keep their hold on the seventh spot in the East. They have six games left, all against lottery teams. But that doesn't change the reality. Their window has closed. They are no longer a legitimate contender and probably never will be with the cast of characters.

And they can stop blaming Ron Artest and the injuries. It goes deeper.

Jermaine O'Neal, the man the Pacers will pay $82.1 million next season through 2010, is an All-Star talent. But he's not equipped to be a franchise player. He lacks something -- mental toughness, maybe -- to be a true leader.

It was ironic after Sunday's loss he said, "There are talkers, and there are doers. All we are is a talking team."

The Pacers take their cue from him. To me, O'Neal is one of the great talkers in history. But where is he at crunch time when the Pacers need a big play? Even when the Pacers were contenders, he seemed to get real quiet when the biggest games were on the line.

He was at his best when he was surrounded by Artest (a true tough guy), Reggie Miller (a true franchise player) and a veteran big man like Dale Davis or Brad Miller, who could do all the dirty work for him.

Then there is Stephen Jackson (owed $27.5 million through 2010) and Jamaal Tinsley ($33.6 million through 2011). Jackson showed his true colors Sunday when he basically said, "Don't talk to me, I am doing my job."

Jackson is a guy who, if surrounded by strong-minded veterans, would be an asset -- like he was when he won a title with the Spurs. Without that, he's just too unstable, and he winds up chipping away at the team's chemistry.

Same for Tinsley, who can't seem to step away from his own petulance. Pacers insiders chuckled that he came down with his latest injury (right ankle sprain) the same day Carlisle announced Anthony Johnson was replacing him in the starting lineup.

Artest, as it turns out, was only a small part of the problem.

What, now, will Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh do?

The easiest thing would be to fire Carlisle, but I think Bird is smart enough to know that won't solve the problem.

The Knicks are going to come calling about O'Neal. The best they will be able to offer are a bunch of expiring contracts. It won't be an easy sell to the people of Indiana, but it may be wise to unload O'Neal (and Jackson and Tinsley), sacrifice next season and build a sturdier foundation.

Bball
04-11-2006, 05:14 AM
I'd like to disagree with that....


...but I can't.... I think I've said pretty much the same things.

I'd hate to trade JO for expiring contracts but maybe we should be taking a longer term look at things. How would that flexibility play out?

-Bball

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 05:18 AM
Indiana classically hasn't attracted big name free agents... We have built strong teams through drafting and trades. So I don't think this city will lure a free agent, thus making expiring contracts relatively WORTHLESS... The market isn't one that lures top 10 players on their own, they come here because they are drafted here and fall in love with it, like Reggie, Chuck, Rik, Dale, Antonio, Mark, and other stars of yesteryear.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 05:20 AM
In fact, Saras has been the greatest free agent we have attracted that comes to mind in recent decades... who am I missing here? Byron Scott... Tim Hardaway??? Eddie Johnson? Ricky Pierce? These are the kinds of free agents we have attracted in recent years...

Bball
04-11-2006, 05:28 AM
Walsh had no desire to pursue FA's so that has played a great factor in our not signing big name FA's.

Bird might be different.

Barkley WANTED to come here and Walsh bent over backwards to make excuses not to get him back in the day.

-Bball

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 05:36 AM
So you think they'll come? And you think they'd want to come?

Barkley wanted to come when the team was good and his friendship with Reg was blooming. Webber similarly wanted to come when Rose was with the team and IT was coaching.

What do we have to sell to free agents now? Or minus the likes of JO...

Bball
04-11-2006, 05:45 AM
So you think they'll come? And you think they'd want to come?

Barkley wanted to come when the team was good and his friendship with Reg was blooming. Webber similarly wanted to come when Rose was with the team and IT was coaching.

What do we have to sell to free agents now? Or minus the likes of JO...

Indiana hospitality. A nice new stadium to watch the Colts play in a year or so. Big Red. John Mellencamp. The "world's largest Christmas tree". Boomer and Bowser.

Barring that... maybe if we opened the checkbook to some FA like we opened it to JO and annointed them 'face of the franchise'.

On a serious note... It would be a tougher sell now, no doubt. But the first step is to start actually trying (assuming TPTB really want to build thru free agecy at all at this point).

-Bball

D-BONE
04-11-2006, 06:31 AM
I'm pretty eye to eye with this take, although I'd hope to get something in return for JO. However, at least I think it's fair to say that if you take those three guys and their salaries, none of their contributions the last two years are even close to justifying how much we're stuck paying them. That has to be laid at the feet of the Pacer brass.

owl
04-11-2006, 06:46 AM
Best basketball facility in the WORLD. Larry Bird. A great city to raise a
family. Management that treats players well. Commitment to winning. Money.

Those are some very strong incentives to come to Indy.

If Peja stays, and he will if the Pacers want him why do you thing someone
like Peja would stay?

owl

Stryder
04-11-2006, 07:35 AM
...Big Red...


I love Big Red. Mmmm....Big Red!

MagicRat
04-11-2006, 07:38 AM
I can't decide if the "insider" is Wells or Kravitz. I lean toward Wells, since I doubt Kravitz went to Detroit.....

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 09:19 AM
I can't decide if the "insider" is Wells or Kravitz. I lean toward Wells, since I doubt Kravitz went to Detroit.....


Likely is Wells, or it could be Mark Boyle or maybe even Slick

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 09:38 AM
We are going to suck big time next year. Larry is going to back the wrong horse.

Slick Pinkham
04-11-2006, 09:56 AM
My enjoyment of Pacers basketball is at a 20 year low, and when I consider the reasons why, poor coaching isn't high on the list.

I think Larry is backing the right horse here, actually. Let's hope he gets good value for half of our roster.

And this Detroit writer... how dare he say bad stuff about us... Wait, we've been saying that stuff for weeks.

DrBadd01
04-11-2006, 09:56 AM
If Utah can attract free agents (Boozer, Okur, etc.) than we can certainly attract free agents.

Fool
04-11-2006, 09:59 AM
Terrible teams are the only thing that really keep free agents away. If you've got money and a chance to win, the guys you really want to come will come.

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 09:59 AM
If Utah can attract free agents (Boozer, Okur, etc.) than we can certainly attract free agents.

Uh if you think Boozer and Okur are big time free agent signings then I have nothing to add. Have fun with your all overpaid white guy starting lineup next year.

IUColtPacerFan
04-11-2006, 10:02 AM
Terrible teams are the only thing that really keep free agents away. If you've got money and a chance to win, the guys you really want to come will come.

I agree. Big name free agent's haven't had a problem coming to the Colts the last couple of years.

DrBadd01
04-11-2006, 10:21 AM
I don' think they are bigtime by any means. But I know that it was Utah that almost signed Brad Miller, Jason Terry, Corey Maggette, Elton Brand, Andre Miller and did sign Boozer and Okur. If Utah can get the interest of these players than we have a shot at anyone.

Evan_The_Dude
04-11-2006, 10:35 AM
The real reason we haven't signed any true big named free agents is because we haven't been under the cap for I don't know how many years.

8.9_seconds
04-11-2006, 05:46 PM
Artest, as it turns out, was only a small part of the problem.



Very,Very True. It doesn't matter if nobody else agrees, it's true.

CableKC
04-11-2006, 06:08 PM
Geez.......Not that most of it isn't true......but it sounds like this reporter from Detroit completely went out of his way to kick JONeal and the Pacers in the Nutz.

CableKC
04-11-2006, 06:23 PM
I think that the Pacers would have the same problem that teams like Atlanta, Chicago and Minny ( in the past ) that had when they had a huge load of cash to spend on Free Agents but couldn't really sign anyone decent ( yes....Joe Johnson is decent...but that cost them 70mil and a draft pick ).

Just like when Artest was up for bidding....getting expiring contracts means nothing to team like the Pacers. That is why I think that is one of the reasons why the Pacers initially were interested in Maggette...his contract is locked in for another 2 seasons.

If JONeal is traded away...then we are in rebuliding mode. Even if we had the money to spend on Free Agents......no one is going to want to come to a team that is rebuilding AND is located in Indy. Trading away a player like JONeal may work for a Big Market team like the Clippers, Orlando or NY....but it won't work for a Smaller Market team like the Pacers.

waxman
04-11-2006, 06:24 PM
Geez.......Not that most of it isn't true......but it sounds like this reporter from Detroit completely went out of his way to kick JONeal and the Pacers in the Nutz.


Just our resident Piston fan, fanning the flames.................................again.

CableKC
04-11-2006, 07:03 PM
Just our resident Piston fan, fanning the flames.................................again.
I was referring to McCosky.....not KSTAT. Even if most of it is essentially true.......its easy to kick a "former" Conference Rival when they are down when your local team is perched so high on their high-horse.

I give KSTAT more slack cuz he's one of us......he maybe the red-headed step-child that posts on PD all the time...but he's one of us ( as in a PD forum poster...not a Pacer fan ).

( KSTAT....J/K...sort of :buddies: )

indytoad
04-11-2006, 07:23 PM
Jermaine O'Neal, the man the Pacers will pay $82.1 million next season through 2010, is an All-Star talent. But he's not equipped to be a franchise player. He lacks something -- mental toughness, maybe -- to be a true leader.

Does this scream "Jalen Rose" to anyone else?

I hope we can pull a trade for JO half as good as that one.

IndyToad
Wants this film to be made

Bball
04-11-2006, 07:25 PM
Does this scream "Jalen Rose" to anyone else?

I hope we can pull a trade for JO half as good as that one.

IndyToad
Wants this film to be made

Maybe we can get Brad Miller and Harrington back if they work the phones hard enough?

-Bball

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 07:50 PM
The reason the colts get free agents is bc of Peyton Manning, the best player (arguably) in the NFL. The Pacers don't, and won't have that... especially by trading the core of this team for nothing. I don't think we can let JO go for nothing. Thats the bottom line. Now, you get a guy like Ike from Golden State, or someone with that kind of potential, and a few throw ins, well then you've got something, potentially. But not for cap space.

In this situation, you trade an all-star player for a potential all-star player and hope he can be a franchise type leader - if Danny Granger doesn't turn out to be that guy. I think a lot rests upon what becomes with Danny. But the team needs some direction.

TPTB need to decide which way they want to go. I don't think any of us really know what's going on behind the scenes and who's good in the lockerroom and who's not. But I dont' think we have any choice but to put our trust in Donnie and Larry and home that they can fix this problem.

Regarding Coach, well if it turns out that we have to keep either RC or the players, I'd keep Rick. He's got a track record that the players simply don't have.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 07:52 PM
Maybe we can get Brad Miller and Harrington back if they work the phones hard enough?

-Bball

Maybe we could have gotten Coach Knight to come back instead of this Sampson guy...

Water under the bridge in my opinion, but Dale wasn't a bad re-sign last year. I don't know how much I like the idea of going back in time, especially 2-3 years later.

Bball
04-11-2006, 08:12 PM
Maybe we could have gotten Coach Knight to come back instead of this Sampson guy...

Water under the bridge in my opinion, but Dale wasn't a bad re-sign last year. I don't know how much I like the idea of going back in time, especially 2-3 years later.

I'm not sure how serious I was when I typed that... at first I added it in jest... and then I thought "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???"

I don't typically like going back either, and I joked the other day that you know it's bad when Al "Black Hole" Harrington is starting to look good again. But then getting Mark Jackson back a few years ago didn't hurt did it?

If you have the ability to correct a mistake, maybe you do it? But then do the same old questions pop up about Brad's conditioning and whether Al has ever met a shot he didn't like?

-Bball

SoupIsGood
04-11-2006, 08:55 PM
Does this scream "Jalen Rose" to anyone else?

I hope we can pull a trade for JO half as good as that one.

IndyToad
Wants this film to be made

Hey, Happy Birthday

#31
04-11-2006, 09:32 PM
:censored:

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 10:04 PM
I'm not sure how serious I was when I typed that... at first I added it in jest... and then I thought "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???"

I don't typically like going back either, and I joked the other day that you know it's bad when Al "Black Hole" Harrington is starting to look good again. But then getting Mark Jackson back a few years ago didn't hurt did it?

If you have the ability to correct a mistake, maybe you do it? But then do the same old questions pop up about Brad's conditioning and whether Al has ever met a shot he didn't like?

-Bball

Mark Jackson - I kind of see him as a loan to the Nuggets that was made in a temporary state of Larry Brown insanity. But basically that trade turned into Peja for us - Rose ->Artest + Miller -> Peja + Pollard.

I would worry about the points you brought up.

Basically, we need a leader. Those don't come easy and often times they aren't traded for, they are drafted.

indytoad
04-11-2006, 10:07 PM
Hey, Happy Birthday

http://www.jerks.cx/pics/yay.jpg

IndyToad
Nefarious image linker

BillS
04-12-2006, 09:44 AM
whether Al has ever met a shot he didn't like?

Watch a Hawks game and see how Al actually passes the ball to other stronger shooters.

He's second in both points AND assists.

I think that question is answered.

Mourning
04-12-2006, 02:49 PM
Trade JO to the Knicks (off ALL TEAMS) and then only get ... expiring contracts back? This guy has to be from Detroit OR New York press ... Ahh he's from Detroit, that figures.

Seriously though. I think at the VERY LEAST we should be able to get a GOOD lottery pick and expiring contract(s) for JO.

Regards,

Mourning :cool: