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View Full Version : Um Ragnar, Jay & Jermainiac may not want to read this....



Peck
04-11-2006, 03:45 AM
Bob Kravitz
Carlisle will be back, but who'll be gone?

There will be changes this Indiana Pacers summer, seismic changes that will alter the face of this increasingly stale franchise. Team president Larry Bird doesn't need to see his team sleepwalk through anymore games; he, too, has reached the widely held conclusion that it's time to detonate that locker room.

"Won't be much golf this offseason,'' Bird said, standing in a hallway near his team's locker room before the Pacers' 101-82 victory over the New York Knicks. "It's going to be a working summer. To say right now that we're going to trade a bunch of guys, we can't do that because we don't know who's going to be out there. But obviously, we've got to get this thing right.''
Who's gone? Who's back? Bird, naturally, is not going to show that hand or advertise a fire sale. Read between the lines, though, and an offseason plan begins to take shape.
They certainly will move Jamaal Tinsley. They likely will move Stephen Jackson. If they can get good value in return, they will try to move Jermaine O'Neal. (That doesn't even include Peja Stojakovic, who will entertain free agent offers.)
One area that will not be changed, though, is on the Pacers' sideline, where Bird said coach Rick Carlisle will be back -- even if his players seem intent on getting him fired. Yes, Bird hears the groans of dissatisfaction coming from all corners of the Pacers' locker room. And no, he's not lending a sympathetic ear.
"They didn't complain when we were winning 61 games,'' Bird said. "I didn't hear anything when we were winning 44 games. Rick's had two very good years here, and he's done a good job this year considering what's happened -- the injuries, the Ron Artest thing and everything else. When you start losing, everybody wants to point the finger.
". . . Right now, it's up to the players. We can talk about it until we're blue in the face. I'm happy with our coaching staff. I just think our players need to look in the mirror and say, 'It's on us now.' "
When the season began, Bird thought he had a team that could reach the Eastern Conference finals, maybe even the NBA Finals. He knew he had some high-maintenance players who would have their bad moments, but in the end, he figured there was enough talent and depth to go deep into the playoffs.
Now, there's a chance the Pacers, who for more than a decade have viewed the postseason as a birthright, may not earn a spot in the dreadful Eastern Conference.
"If anybody's going to take the blame, it's got to be me,'' Bird said. "Because I had so much confidence in this team. I just think the team chemistry hasn't been close to what I expected it to be . . . At times, we've looked like we haven't played together all year.
"They can tell you they like each other, and they probably do, but they're not playing like they like each other. I can see it, missing guys who are wide open, guys forcing shots, the ball movement isn't there, guys breaking plays and going one-on-one. There's no real trust in one another to play the game. I think they try, they want to win, but they don't trust each other.''
Some of the Pacers' coming decisions are no-brainers.
Tinsley, who (ouch) was taken ahead of Tony Parker in the draft, has to take his act elsewhere.
Jackson has had his flashes, including Monday night's 28-point performance, but his volatility continues to be an issue -- especially on a team that lacks a dominant personality.
And then there's O'Neal. Think Monday night's performance was instructive? One day earlier, he had called out his team for going through the motions against Detroit. Then against the Knicks, he scored 10 points on 1-of-7 shooting and grabbed five rebounds.
That, too often, has been the problem -- words, not deeds. Nobody blames O'Neal for getting hurt so often the past two years, but behind the scenes, the Pacers have taken issue with O'Neal's conditioning, and wonder if that hasn't contributed to his long stays on the inactive list.
"Some guys can lead and some guys can't,'' Bird said. "I have a lot of trust in Jermaine and I know he wants to be a good leader. But to just throw him in there and say, 'OK, you're our leader,' that's tough, especially when you're injured a lot. You lead by example and not with words, and when you're not out there every day in practice and games, it's hard to lead.''
For the Pacers, this is not going to be an easy fix. They aren't good enough to think that a little tinkering will make them contenders again. At the same time, they're not bad enough to count on a high draft choice. They will have some salary-cap maneuverability this summer, but not enough to pursue a big-time free agent.
Bird doesn't think the Pacers need to take three steps back and return to Lottery Land to take one huge step forward. Ultimately, though, he may have no other choice.
The Pacers you see now will not be the Pacers you see in the fall. Not if Bird remakes this roster the way he wants. Golf will have to wait.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060411/COLUMNISTS01/604110421/1088/SPORTS04

************************************************** ***

Can't say I'm suprised by this. I'm not in favor of this but I am willing to say this, if he does intend on keeping Rick which I believe he does, then we really must have 4 or 5 new players & you will have to replace the core of the team.

So that does mean Jax, Tins & yes even J.O. will probably have to be moved if they intend on doing anything with this team with Rick here.

U.B. just had a big giant smile come across his face.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 03:53 AM
Well, the "who replaces Rick" threads just got made pretty much irrelevant...

I suppose it was a good move for Larry to make it known EXACTLY who he was going to side with, rather than dodge the issue.

Oh yeah, and Larry's "3-year rule" is officially bullcrap. Even HE doesn't buy into it. It was merely a smokescreen to get out of coaching.

Lastly?

Carlisle is Bird's boy. I've been telling you that he's not going to fire HIS prodigy in favor of anybody. He'll choose Rick over Saras, or Jax, or Harrison, or anybody else that is unhappy playing (or not playing) under Rick.

Bird's favorites (from what I can tell) are:

1. Rick
2. Peja
3. Jermaine
4. Granger
5. Croshere
6. Saras

That would seem to be the pecking order right now. Those seem to be the guys he wants to stay on the team. But if one guy has a problem with a guy listed above him on this list, he's probably going to get shipped out.

And yes, I do believe Bird would get rid of JO if he made the same "me or him" demand to Bird about Peja that he did about Artest.

Of course, that's all semantics, because neither Peja nor JO seem to have any issue with each other, so that doesnt really matter.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 03:58 AM
Larry also said Zeke would be retained and well we all know where he ended up...

Just out of curiosity - and I know I know, LB and IT weren't great friends, but didn't IT coach here 4 years, or was it just 3? I think he was just 3 and going into his 4th and final year... putting him up against LB's deadline :)

Don't take me too seriously, some of this is half hearted, but I don't think that just bc LB says to Bob Kravitz that RC isn't going anywhere means for certain that he won't go anywhere.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:05 AM
Larry also said Zeke would be retained and well we all know where he ended up...

I think we can all agree those were vastly different circumstances. Unless you were trying to be funny, in which case nevermind.

Donnie hired Bird in part so he could weasel out of his "we'll keep Zeke if you re-sign" promise he made to JO. Was it the whole reason? Of course not. But the timing of the hire made it pretty transparent.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 04:08 AM
Well like I said, don't take me too seriously, but I don't think that just bc he said it means it is the truth.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:10 AM
Well like I said, don't take me too seriously, but I don't think that just bc he said it means it is the truth.

I don't recall Bird every being more clear on a management issue than he was in that article. He not only said Rick would be staying, he went into detail about why the players would not be getting any support from him against Rick.

He pretty much tossed most of the players under the bus.

Bball
04-11-2006, 04:12 AM
This neglects one thing... I'm not convinced Carlisle won't resign anyway.

And as an aside, this also serves sending a message to the fans and players that Carlisle won't be made the scapegoat so the players best get out their mirrors. OTOH, it serves to let Carlisle off the hook and I don't think that is right either.

I don't see a door left open to back off his statement Rick isn't going anywhere tho.

If Rick is staying then JO has to go...

Maybe the whole 11/19 core has to go.

-Bball

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:14 AM
This neglects one thing... I'm not convinced Carlisle won't resign anyway.

.....and go...where?

I think was can all agree Rick is a good coach, but the last time he got canned, the only franchise to show any interest in him before Zeke got fired was the Clippers. He probably would have sat out the 2004 season waiting for a better job, if the Pacers hadnt picked him up.

Rick has it made in Indiana in that he has management's backing over the players, something he knows he won't find anywhere else.

Resigning from the Pacers would be the single-dumbest thing Rick's ever done. There isn't a better job out there.

Bball
04-11-2006, 04:15 AM
As we are talking about player pecking order and the like...

BTW... Why isn't Austin a team captain?

And Kstat, I think you ranked JO a little high for where Bird would put him. I get the impression he isn't that enamored of him for some reason.

-Bball

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:18 AM
As we are talking about player pecking order and the like...

BTW... Why isn't Austin a team captain?

And Kstat, I think you ranked JO a little high for where Bird would put him. I get the impression he isn't that enamored of him for some reason.

-Bball

I think Bird likes Jermaine Oneal. His quote about him told me that he wasn't sold on JO as a leader, but he still sympathized with his situation.

I think the only was JO gets out of Indy is if he asks out.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 04:24 AM
Well if all it takes to sell you on Larry Bird's plans is a Kravitz article, I have some dead horses I'd like to sell you.

Business doesn't work by showing your hand of cards. It just doesn't. And not all firings are firings, sometimes they are forced resignations. And moreover, you have to remember, business is what the Pacers are in. A good businessman doesn't always tell the truth or the full truth. Doesn't mean he lies, but doesn't mean he tells all. And if you've learned anything from the lessons of DW and LB, then you'd know not to place too much credence in their words and rather judge them by their actions.

Bball
04-11-2006, 04:25 AM
.....and go...where?


I suppose with the 12 million he's made here over 3 years he could go relax and try to get over this headache for a while. Maybe some TV work. Maybe coach a college team. Maybe sit at home and count money.

Coaching the Pacers CAN'T be any fun right now and has to have taken its toll.

-Bball

Kestas
04-11-2006, 04:29 AM
even though I'm as competent as a park bench, I'd say this is a mistake to leave Rick. however, if thre's no one better out there, then be it.

Bird did not mention Saras, but imho if Saras will find the sutuation unchanged next season (him being forced to play SG, not being allowed to call plays, being seated instantly for the first turnover, deffense remaining at its present primitive form, etc.) he will not act as if everything's fine (read: trade) or maybe even leave NBA, imho. not that it would bother any of you, but still. this team is not changing its style by the looks of things. Bird himself is not sure what he wants, imho. he's not happy with ball movement, but I did not see any signs fromy Rick to change this. the team is a mess. however, geting rid of some key players, who are also known as selfish, may look like a step in the team-oriented direction. but will the new players be any different?

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:29 AM
Well if all it takes to sell you on Larry Bird's plans is a Kravitz article, I have some dead horses I'd like to sell you.

Would it make you feel better if he was quoted in another newspaper?

If Larry said it, he said it. It would print the same way no matter what.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 04:34 AM
Well I'm not criticizing the fact that it was Bob Kravitz' article at all so I'm not sure why you seem to think that it has anything to do with that. You're right, he said it. And whatever Larry says, and god knows I'm a fan of his, he's a businessman first, and legend second to me.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:40 AM
And whatever Larry says, and god knows I'm a fan of his, he's a businessman first, and legend second to me.

Absolutely.

And Larry just made a buisness decision.

He's trying to keep Rick from leaving, I think. He made a statement geared towards letting his coach know that his working conditions will be made much better soon.

This is really no different than a franchise making a strong commitment to a free agent-to-be player, in order to get him to stick around.

It just seems odd because usually, its the coaches that get fired in favor of the player. This time the coach is the one with the power.

skyfire
04-11-2006, 04:43 AM
If anyone would be an exception to the 3yr rule it would be Rick. After a 61 win season, he had two of the most interrupted years a coach could possibly imagine.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 04:43 AM
Why would he show you his cards this early in the process, Kstat?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not sure that you're right either.

I think Larry's business decision amounts to this: He announced that he was going to retain Rick. Call it a "vote of confidence" if you will.

Bball
04-11-2006, 04:46 AM
What if DW buzzes Bird in the morning and says:
"Larry, I'm letting Rick go. Do you want to tell him or do you want me to tell him?"

-Bball

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:46 AM
I think if this was a simple "vote of conficence," Larry would have simply credited Rick for past successes, instead of throwing his players under the bus in the process of explaining why this wasn't rick's fault.

As a Lions fan, I've heard a ton of "votes of confidence." This didn't have nearly the same tune to it.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:47 AM
What if DW buzzes Bird in the morning and says:
"Larry, I'm letting Rick go. Do you want to tell him or do you want me to tell him?"

-Bball


Now THAT is an angle that I hadn't considered.

Of course, Larry is not someone to be strong-armed like that. I don't think Larry would be very happy about a scenario like that.

Would Larry leave along with Rick, rather than let Donnie do that to him?

Either way, its definately something to be considered. Far-fetched, but possible.

Kaufman
04-11-2006, 04:50 AM
I think if this was a simple "vote of conficence," Larry would have simply credited Rick for past successes, instead of throwing his players under the bus in the process of explaining why this wasn't rick's fault.

I think that gets into too much of a psychological game with what LB is thinking - I can't speculate that far out and make an assumption based on an assumption. But I would say this - I think that there is a much deeper relationship between Rick and Larry than Larry has with any of the players right now. And we all know that. Whatever happens with Rick, I think it'll be interesting to see it play out. Maybe as you say, Larry will retain Rick. But my point is, I don't take what Larry says to the media as gospel. That's all.

Bball
04-11-2006, 04:54 AM
And yes, I do believe Bird would get rid of JO if he made the same "me or him" demand to Bird about Peja that he did about Artest.

Of course, that's all semantics, because neither Peja nor JO seem to have any issue with each other, so that doesnt really matter.

So... would Peja pull a "him or me" regarding JO before he re-signed? Wouldn't that be an ironic twist of fate (on a few levels come to think of it)?

-Bball

Kstat
04-11-2006, 04:57 AM
So... would Peja pull a "him or me" regarding JO before he re-signed? Wouldn't that be an ironic twist of fate (on a few levels come to think of it)?

-Bball

Nah, Peja seemed pretty excited about teaming with JO when the trade was made. Besides, I thinm Peja knows the value of a good big man as well as anybody.

owl
04-11-2006, 06:36 AM
I don't recall Bird every being more clear on a management issue than he was in that article. He not only said Rick would be staying, he went into detail about why the players would not be getting any support from him against Rick.

He pretty much tossed most of the players under the bus.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

It's called discipline and something some of the players sorely need.


owl

Mourning
04-11-2006, 08:27 AM
Why would he show you his cards this early in the process, Kstat?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not sure that you're right either.

I think Larry's business decision amounts to this: He announced that he was going to retain Rick. Call it a "vote of confidence" if you will.

Maybe it's a message to both Rick aswell as the players. Especially the players, actually. Sort of like: "Don't expect the current crisis to be blamed on your coach, expect each of you, as players, to be held accountable for this malaise". He wasn't talking about selfish play, one-on-one's and breaking plays for nothing.

I think Rick's pretty safe ... for now. Look if we loose the rest of our games in the regular season, we don't make the play-offs or get swept in the first round if we do make it THEN it might change things. But, I think he just got a public "vote of confidence" from management. I don't think this looks ANYTHING like the IT-situation that unfolded in the summer 3 seasons ago.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
04-11-2006, 08:29 AM
Why would he show you his cards this early in the process, Kstat?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not sure that you're right either.

I think Larry's business decision amounts to this: He announced that he was going to retain Rick. Call it a "vote of confidence" if you will.

I very much aggree.

I see it as a message to both Rick aswell as the players. Especially the players, actually. Sort of like: "Don't expect the current crisis to be blamed on your coach, expect each of you, as players, to be held accountable for this malaise". He wasn't talking about selfish play, one-on-one's and breaking plays for nothing.

I think Rick's pretty safe ... for now. Look if we loose the rest of our games in the regular season, we don't make the play-offs or get swept in the first round if we do make it THEN it might change things. But, I think he just got a public "vote of confidence" from management. I don't think this looks ANYTHING like the IT-situation that unfolded in the summer 3 seasons ago.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

BillS
04-11-2006, 08:46 AM
guys breaking plays and going one-on-one.

OK, did you guys miss this or just dismiss it as a statement from someone who doesn't know what is going on out on the floor?

Does this perhaps indicate that, from a coaching/management perspective, the number of isolations we have been complaining about really were <i><b>not</b></i> planned?

Especially recently, I've seen a lot of plays set that turned into isolations because someone simply kept the ball. Yes, there are still plenty of clear-the-side-and-isolate plays, but the number has gone down drastically compared to what it used to be - thus the problem with everyone firing up shots and bricking.

Maybe Rick has learned something from this year? Maybe clearing out some of the "I can do it <i>myself</i>" players would make a difference?

I agree with Larry on all counts, and just because he didn't call out any of Rick's flaws doesn't mean he didn't address them privately.

brichard
04-11-2006, 08:51 AM
If Larry says it... he generally means it. You will find exceptions to the rule, but deception isn't his forte. And honestly, I think he tried to accept Isiah as coach and just couldn't get past it. I do believe he planned on firing at some later point, but after watching some things he just felt it was time to make a change.

His public support of Carlisle was a clear directive to the players that their mutiny was not going to work. If they want to play in Indiana they are playing for Rick. If they are going to stick their thumbs up their butt, they are getting moved out. If management is really sticking with Carlisle, which it appears they are, this was the right thing to do.

Fool
04-11-2006, 08:52 AM
Whether its true or not, Bird gains nothing from saying he will let the coach loose. The only time coaching firings are hinted at in advance is when there is a replacement candidate out on the free market and teams want to let it be known they are interested before the coach signs somewhere else. Thats not the case here.

Saying he will have to change the roster is simply ringing the dinner bell for all the other GMs to come to the table. If anyone thought this team would be A.O.K with just a coaching change, they are misguided so whether its Carlisle or not the roster has to change.

That being said. Next year is the perfect time for a Carlisle type coach. A guy who gets a team to play better than it has been playing and over achieve in the regular season even with a significant player turnover. That's not saying he's the right coach for the roster or the team, but he's definately the right coach for the situation. Everyone knows you fire Rick and bring in someone to get you over the hump. But Rick is tops in the league at getting to that hump.

Roaming Gnome
04-11-2006, 09:08 AM
As I mentioned on the J.O. thread, what did he do to end up on the bus out of town, I know the players mentioned were Kravitz speculation, but what am I missing, please fill me in! Granted, I am not saying J.O. is perfect...actually, he is far from it, but it just seems like a lot of the blame is landing, unfairly; on his shoulders for this team of misfits. Mngmt ****ed this team up, how is shipping one of our only real strengths out of town fixing the problem?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that some of you (Bball especially) have been beating the drum for shipping out J.O. IMHO, this is totally screwed up logic. I guess I have not heard a decent reason why everything is his fault. I just hear the same crap over and over about either his contract or "poor leadership". His contract is what it is. Big men in the NBA are expensive. Look at guys like Camby or Kenyon Martin, I know their contracts are not as heavy as J.O.'s but for what you get in exchange for their ability, it just goes to show Big men are expensive. Some of you older fans remember when that stiff Bryant "Big Country" Reeves broke the bank in Vancouver making us ante up a sizable contract for Rik Smits. It was what set the market at the time for centers and bigs, how is J.O. any different? I didn't hear moaning and groaning about his max deal when he got it, the popular opinion that I remember was locking J.O. up before he even made a trip to San Antonio, because if I remember correctly, S.A. was going to open up the checkbook and we didn't want that!

As for the poor leader, I guess I just don't get it...I know that he is flamboyant, loves to show off, and gets on the officials way too much, but so did Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and many other superstars of the day. Do you think anyone of the greats that I mentioned above would have fared any better with this cast of knuckle heads we got on this team, the Ron Artest drama, and the dynamics between the backcourt and the coach? Hell, we got a damn GM and CEO that can't figure this out, so how is it a players fault???

Even if I were to entertain the notion that J.O. is the problem, what do you want in return? I know everyone says K.G., but does he really make us any better? Minn. is struggling with trying to get K.G. to just be another cog in the offense. Anyway, as discussed at the forum party...K.G. is going to also cost you a valuable player as a throw in along with J.O. if O'neal is the meat of the deal. Minnesota will probably want Granger with J.O., why wouldn't they...they are dealing from a "want" postion and not a "need" position. So, who do you want for him? Do you want to surender a big for a small, or how about a bunch of role players?

I also see what happened to Sacramento after the Webber deal. They looked pretty good with Webber hurt and on the bench, yet as soon as he came back...their team play suffered. Someone got the bright idea to ship out Webber and they would get that team play again. IT DIDN'T WORK, DID IT? They got a bunch of ok to decent role players from Philly. Looks like the same plan a lot of you want for the Pacers. Peja couldn't carry the Kings and a bunch of role players, so why do some of you think that a re-signed Peja can carry the Pacers and a bunch of role players?

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 09:12 AM
I don't think this article and Bird's comments therein means Rick will be back next season for sure. We'll see.

I found the most interesting comments from Bird about the players not trusting each other.


As far as J.O., I have no problem trading him, but I want quality in return. That means I don't want a deal like the Kings got for Webber - not at all.

I keep waiting for Vescey to write something about the Pacers and he hasn't in a long long time.

Roaming Gnome
04-11-2006, 09:29 AM
I don't think this article and Bird's comments therein means Rick will be back next season for sure. We'll see.

I found the most interesting comments from Bird about the players not trusting each other.


As far as J.O., I have no problem trading him, but I want quality in return. That means I don't want a deal like the Kings got for Webber - not at all.

I keep waiting for Vescey to write something about the Pacers and he hasn't in a long long time.
Do you think Vecsey is out of the loop? You also mention quality for a J.O. deal, granted....if that were the rule of the day, I could learn to love it, but I just would hate to see the Pacers do what Sacto did. Anyhow, who do you consider fair market value, outside of KG that is reallistic to acheive?

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 09:35 AM
Peck if you will remember I called this two forum parties ago. Rick is Birds guy and it wont matter that he is the wrong coach for this team. Larry will blow up this young talented team like so many G.M.'s have in the past with other young talented teams because he will put his faith in the coach.

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 09:45 AM
Peck if you will remember I called this two forum parties ago. Rick is Birds guy and it wont matter that he is the wrong coach for this team. Larry will blow up this young talented team like so many G.M.'s have in the past with other young talented teams because he will put his faith in the coach.



Ragnar, you keep saying Rick is the wrong coach for this team, but if the team changes drastically, iis it possible that next years team will be right for Rick and vice versa.

Roaming, I've always thought DW and Reggie were Vescey's primary sources - well Reggie is gone and maybe DW is keeping quiet. He'll write something about the pacers sooner or later.

I still think KG will want out of Minnesota this summer, so if I were LB I'd go hard after Garnett, offer J.O and Tinsley to start and then throw in Harrison. We'd have to take one of their bad contracts, Jaric, Hudson or Blount

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 09:58 AM
Ragnar, you keep saying Rick is the wrong coach for this team, but if the team changes drastically, iis it possible that next years team will be right for Rick and vice versa.


Do you honestly think we will get the better end of deals this summer with everyone in the NBA knowing they have chosen the coach over the players.

Detroit had this choice and they chose right. We have this choice and we are chosing wrong.

Hicks
04-11-2006, 09:58 AM
I think Larry nailed it with the comments about broken plays, and most importantly, TRUST. The Reggie teams were all about trust and execution of plays.

Right now I don't know if Rick and JO can co-exist basketball-wise, but I'm willing to give it another go if we surround JO with guys that trust him, each other, and he trusts them.

I'm tired of Rick's weaknesses, but I'm more happy he's not being thrown under the bus for something that is mostly not his fault. Even less so if what Larry's saying about breaking plays is true. You think they're breaking iso plays to share the ball? Ha! No, they're adding more isos.

Anthem
04-11-2006, 09:59 AM
Lost in the discussion is the fact that this is a pretty good article by the badger.

If I wrote like this all the time I might respect him.

But then, this article actually required homework, which he's generally not willing to do.

Tom White
04-11-2006, 10:05 AM
Nah, Peja seemed pretty excited about teaming with JO when the trade was made. Besides, I thinm Peja knows the value of a good big man as well as anybody.

Then TPTB should try to find him one, because JO is not filling that role. Too much talking big, and walking small.

Fool
04-11-2006, 10:08 AM
Do you honestly think we will get the better end of deals this summer with everyone in the NBA knowing they have chosen the coach over the players.

Detroit had this choice and they chose right. We have this choice and we are chosing wrong.

I would imagine that the cat is out of the bag on whether you want to keep your players or not when you start offering them in trades in the first place.

If getting over on other GMs comes down to keeping up the facade that you want all your guys to stay, then your real problem isn't the coach or the players. This isn't the Artest situation where you have a player (or players) demanding to leave and not playing till they do. There are plenty of teams in worse situations roster wise.

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 10:18 AM
Bird's an idiot.

Shade
04-11-2006, 10:35 AM
I'm not surprised by this decision, but it's disappointing nonetheless. I have a bad feeling that Bird is going to turn this back into the 80's franchise. I have ZERO faith in him.

J_2_Da_IzzO
04-11-2006, 10:57 AM
Ragnar, you keep saying Rick is the wrong coach for this team, but if the team changes drastically, iis it possible that next years team will be right for Rick and vice versa.

Roaming, I've always thought DW and Reggie were Vescey's primary sources - well Reggie is gone and maybe DW is keeping quiet. He'll write something about the pacers sooner or later.

I still think KG will want out of Minnesota this summer, so if I were LB I'd go hard after Garnett, offer J.O and Tinsley to start and then throw in Harrison. We'd have to take one of their bad contracts, Jaric, Hudson or Blount

And if peoples problems with JO are his leadership skills how on earth do you think getting KG will lead this team?

Hes more or less stating his team are **** and thats not what a leader should do. If you think this teams bad now, imagine what it would be like if KG said that if he was our player.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 11:10 AM
Donnie hired Bird in part so he could weasel out of his "we'll keep Zeke if you re-sign" promise he made to JO. Was it the whole reason? Of course not. But the timing of the hire made it pretty transparent.

Yeah, the timing was pretty transparent. It was shortly after Donnie lost his grand daughter and had serious reservations about returning to the Pacers so he could spend more time with his family.

Evan_The_Dude
04-11-2006, 11:13 AM
And if peoples problems with JO are his leadership skills how on earth do you think getting KG will lead this team?

Hes more or less stating his team are **** and thats not what a leader should do. If you think this teams bad now, imagine what it would be like if KG said that if he was our player.

^Exactly. Neither JO not KG have that 4th quarter higher gear either. Getting KG does nothing for us but just get us #21 for #7.

As far as keeping Carlisle, I think Bird saying he's going to keep him is basically saying all we needed to know. Bird sees what goes on behind the scenes, we don't. For a while I've been hoping Carlisle steps down, but I didn't want him fired. After reading this, I'm confident enough to say I don't want him to step down either. I hate some of the coaching decisions he's made, but now after reading Birds comments, his coaching style for this year is making a lot of sense.

If the players don't trust eachother, then it makes sense for the coach to micro-manage a bit. Also, I think the depth of this team has hurt it more than it's helped it. But I'm not sure how we go about solving that issue. All-in-all, I'd give Bird my blessing to keep Carlisle one more year. I do after all want to see the real truth... Players? or Coach? I think it's a lot less risky to give up an injury prone player, and or a set of lackluster performers and try to get some players that will make a difference, than to get rid of a potentially great coach that may have been dealt a bad hand.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 11:13 AM
Carlisle is Bird's boy. I've been telling you that he's not going to fire HIS prodigy in favor of anybody. He'll choose Rick over Saras, or Jax, or Harrison, or anybody else that is unhappy playing (or not playing) under Rick.

Oh, I saw you engage in some of the "who will replace Rick" threads. I, on the other had, didn't. :-p

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 11:16 AM
"They can tell you they like each other, and they probably do, but they're not playing like they like each other. I can see it, missing guys who are wide open, guys forcing shots, the ball movement isn't there, guys breaking plays and going one-on-one. There's no real trust in one another to play the game. I think they try, they want to win, but they don't trust each other.''

So it isn't Rick. Very forthright article. I'm really surprised Bird opened up to Kravitz like that. He's not a well-respected guy within the organization.

Anthem
04-11-2006, 11:17 AM
Getting KG does nothing for us but just get us #21 for #7.
Isn't that enough?

It's enough for me. And I like JO.

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 11:17 AM
So it isn't Rick. Very forthright article. I'm really surprised Bird opened up to Kravitz like that. He's not a well-respected guy within the organization.



He isn't well respected.? That is shocking to me.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 11:25 AM
What if DW buzzes Bird in the morning and says:
"Larry, I'm letting Rick go. Do you want to tell him or do you want me to tell him?"

-Bball

You're funny. But the reality of it is, if Donnie felt it was time for Rick to go, he would express that to Larry and ultimately let the decision be his. I'm glad to see this article because it's very forthright and this board has been a little out of control lately, even with some of our more level-headed and thoughtful posters. TPTB have a much better perspective and clearer understanding of what's going on than anyone here does. I still think it all goes back to the statement Reggie made early in the season on national TV: "As goes Tinsley, so go the Pacers."

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 11:29 AM
Lost in the discussion is the fact that this is a pretty good article by the badger.

If I wrote like this all the time I might respect him.

But then, this article actually required homework, which he's generally not willing to do.

Homework? All he had to do was turn on the tape recorder and let Larry write the article for him.

Slick Pinkham
04-11-2006, 11:29 AM
Neither JO not KG have that 4th quarter higher gear either. Getting KG does nothing for us but just get us #21 for #7.


I would love a guy to show up every single night and give me 40 straight double-doubles.

Lets review:

KG:
better shooter
better passer
better ball-handler
better in transition
better facing the basket
better with his back to the basket
better offensive rebounder
better defensive rebounder
better defender on the ball
better defender off the ball
more speed and quickness

JO:
better at blocking shots
better hairstyle
????

Anthem
04-11-2006, 11:32 AM
Homework? All he had to do was turn on the tape recorder and let Larry write the article for him.
Yup. That's more than he usually does.

It's always better to have a source than just vomit on paper.

Fool
04-11-2006, 11:37 AM
^Exactly. Neither JO not KG have that 4th quarter higher gear either. Getting KG does nothing for us but just get us #21 for #7.


Maybe the Pacers should go after Memo.
http://www.nba.com/features/nestle/crunch_time_stat.html

Putnam
04-11-2006, 11:38 AM
.....

Rick has it made in Indiana in that he has management's backing over the players, something he knows he won't find anywhere else.




Does Bird's support for Carlisle imply support for his game plan? Does Bird support the halfcourt, 24-second, every-play-called-from-the-sidelines offense?

We've seen recently that the Pacers cannot run. They looked inept against Phoenix, both out of shape and unskilled. How many losses this year could be explained by the disparity in fastbreak points?

Carlisle's offense is ineffective, and it is boring. If Bird is endorsing Carlisle's offense when he endorses the man, then there's no reason to be optimistic.

Bball
04-11-2006, 11:39 AM
The debate about trading JO and it being a mistake because we'd get a 'non-leader' in return is looking at it from the wrong angle.

The idea could be removing the roadblock of letting one of the existing guys more naturally fill the role without any obstacles. Also, the argument that JO has a problem with leadership is because he's constantly proclaiming himself the leader then steadfastly refusing or ignoring the little things on the court.

JO is not a leader by example. If we do decide to trade him we don't need to trade him for George S Patton, we just need a player that plays the game the right way and let the leadership void fill itself naturally... wherever that might come from.

-Bball

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 11:40 AM
I'm tired of Rick's weaknesses, but I'm more happy he's not being thrown under the bus for something that is mostly not his fault. Even less so if what Larry's saying about breaking plays is true. You think they're breaking iso plays to share the ball? Ha! No, they're adding more isos.

Very well said. I think Rick is taking a little more flak than is warranted. I get frustrated with him, but I get far more frustrated with the decisions some of our players make. Even the Knicks announcers called Jackson out last night after a fast break when he faked a pass to a wide open Peja and took it to the hoop himself. Peja should have finished that play. That play came immediately to mind after reading Bird's comment in that article about players breaking plays and going one-on-one because they don't trust or like one another. Except Peja hasn't given anyone a reason not to trust him. So I'm guessing it must be the latter with Jackson. It's obvious Ron wasn't the only knucklehead on this team.

Anthem
04-11-2006, 11:46 AM
The debate about trading JO and it being a mistake because we'd get a 'non-leader' in return is looking at it from the wrong angle.

The idea could be removing the roadblock of letting one of the existing guys more naturally fill the role without any obstacles. Also, the argument that JO has a problem with leadership is because he's constantly proclaiming himself the leader then steadfastly refusing or ignoring the little things on the court.

JO is not a leader by example. If we do decide to trade him we don't need to trade him for George S Patton, we just need a player that plays the game the right way and let the leadership void fill itself naturally... wherever that might come from.
Well said, for the most part.

We don't JUST need a player who "plays the game the right way." We also need a player as good as JO. Trading for a good-natured stiff ain't gonna cut it.

sixthman
04-11-2006, 11:49 AM
Lets review:

KG:
better shooter
better passer
better ball-handler
better in transition
better facing the basket
better with his back to the basket
better offensive rebounder
better defensive rebounder
better defender on the ball
better defender off the ball
more speed and quickness

JO:
better at blocking shots
better hairstyle
????

So, explain to me why Minnesota would want to make this deal. A KG deal is not realistic unless the Pacers want to start adding guys like Granger and Harrison to sweeten the deal.

BillS
04-11-2006, 11:49 AM
Detroit had this choice and they chose right. We have this choice and we are chosing wrong.

Detroit had this choice because Larry Brown was available.

Larry Brown (or the equivalent) is not available next year.

Detroit did not decide to fire Rick and then look for another coach. Detroit saw that a specific coach they felt would take them to the next level was available and moved on it.

Let's not compare apples and pickup trucks.

Slick Pinkham
04-11-2006, 12:03 PM
So, explain to me why Minnesota would want to make this deal. A KG deal is not realistic unless the Pacers want to start adding guys like Granger and Harrison to sweeten the deal.

They will never want to make ANY deal unless KG demands a trade.

If he does, I'm not sure that many other teams could offer much more than JO+Tins+draft picks+ willingness to take a bad contract back.

If we had to throw in David, fine, but not Danny.

Bball
04-11-2006, 12:08 PM
So, explain to me why Minnesota would want to make this deal. A KG deal is not realistic unless the Pacers want to start adding guys like Granger and Harrison to sweeten the deal.

JO is younger... Both players are on teams going nowhere. Both teams could probably use a fanbase energizer and JO is an All Star... if they are interested in a trade where big names are involved to placate the fans then the list will be short. Persistent rumors say KG wants out of Minnesota. Salaries match. They still match if you throw in JT.

GM's know DW won't bite if they try to lowball him or ask too much and so Minny wouldn't be dealing from all that much of a position of power unless they absolutely don't want to give up KG or don't want JO.

The key in all this is how bad KG wants out of Minny.... and if there is more to the JO story than we know and something that would really turn them off to the point they'd trade KG for a lesser name or quantity before JO.

-Bball

tora tora
04-11-2006, 12:56 PM
I'd like to build around a starting lineup of Delonte West, Jamal Crawford, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard & Jeff Foster. :2tup:

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 01:05 PM
Detroit had this choice because Larry Brown was available.

Larry Brown (or the equivalent) is not available next year.

Detroit did not decide to fire Rick and then look for another coach. Detroit saw that a specific coach they felt would take them to the next level was available and moved on it.

Let's not compare apples and pickup trucks.

You think Larry will be in NY next year??????

I agree the perfect coach for this team is not available. They screwed that up in 00 and again when they hired Rick. They have had two shots to get the right coach and he is gone. They should have hung onto Isiah untill Byron was available but they did not.

But I also think Mark Jackson would do a better job with THIS TEAM than Rick is.

Jose Slaughter
04-11-2006, 01:19 PM
What if they kept Rick & brought in Paul Silas as an assistant?

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 01:21 PM
So, explain to me why Minnesota would want to make this deal. A KG deal is not realistic unless the Pacers want to start adding guys like Granger and Harrison to sweeten the deal.



I'd throw in Harrison, I'd throw in Saras along with Tinsley, J.O and I'd take one of their bad contracts and they have three. I think a deal can get done.

BillS
04-11-2006, 01:24 PM
You think Larry will be in NY next year?

Ummm... he's in the first year of a 5-year contract, there are no open fights between him and Isaiah, Isaiah has basically already said he's using the stable of talent to give him trade weapons so Larry won't be facing the bunch of prima-donnas he has been facing - I don't have any reason to think he'll bolt before end of next year.

Peck
04-11-2006, 01:25 PM
I'd throw in Harrison, I'd throw in Saras along with Tinsley, J.O and I'd take one of their bad contracts and they have three. I think a deal can get done.

Way to much to give up just to get another player who hasn't proven he can elevate players around him either.

Arcadian
04-11-2006, 01:26 PM
I'll only be convienced that Rick is staying if he is signed to an extension this summer. Maybe I'm to jaded to believe what GM's say to the press.

Again I don't care who stays and who goes for the most part. I just want enough moves to give the team a new leaf. I'm also not sold on Larry's judgment. For anyone maybe this summer is the biggest for Larry. Seems like he is all talk so far. ;)

microwave_oven
04-11-2006, 01:28 PM
Not to mention Garnett isn't getting any younger.

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 02:00 PM
Not to mention Garnett isn't getting any younger.

As opposed to Jermaine O'Neal who seems to be getting younger himself? Come on!

My favorite post is Jay's... Bird is an idiot.

I second that.

RWB
04-11-2006, 02:11 PM
What if they kept Rick & brought in Paul Silas as an assistant?
:iagree:

As much as I like Chuck, I agree with Jose in the respect we need some additional leadership sitting on the bench from the guys in suits.

Third line......

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 02:13 PM
:iagree:

As much as I like Chuck, I agree with Jose in the respect we need some additional leadership sitting on the bench from the guys in suits.

Third line......

The team has a hard core guy - you need the Players guy. That is what we are missing this year. Paul Silas is NOT a player's coach any more than Kevin O'Neill is.

RWB
04-11-2006, 02:16 PM
The team has a hard core guy - you need the Players guy. That is what we are missing this year. Paul Silas is NOT a player's coach any more than Kevin O'Neill is.

Chuck is the players guy Doug. I want RC's frat brother O'Neill gone.

grace
04-11-2006, 02:20 PM
Carlisle is Bird's boy. I've been telling you that he's not going to fire HIS prodigy in favor of anybody.

I haven't read the article and I haven't read the rest of this thread yet so if this has already been brought up and discussed I apologize. My question is this: Larry is going to keep Rick around for next year, but is he going to give him an extension? Next year is the last year on his contract isn't it? I would think it would be very easy for the team to tune out a lame duck coach.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 02:23 PM
It's not the U.S. presidency we're talking about here.

CableKC
04-11-2006, 02:23 PM
Bird is not going to fire Carlisle. The only way that Carlisle is leaving....is if he leaves on his own at the end of this season....or when his contract is up.

grace
04-11-2006, 02:28 PM
What if DW buzzes Bird in the morning and says:
"Larry, I'm letting Rick go. Do you want to tell him or do you want me to tell him?"

-Bball

If this happened I think Larry and Donnie would end up in the Simons' office pointing fingers at each other and yelling "It's him or me!"

RWB
04-11-2006, 02:32 PM
If this happened I think Larry and Donnie would end up in the Simons' office pointing fingers at each other and yelling "It's him or me!"

I guess Larry would change his career by once again opening another car dealership or motel. :D

grace
04-11-2006, 02:35 PM
You think Larry will be in NY next year??????

Hey, they won 3 games in a row last week. That's more than the Pacers did.

grace
04-11-2006, 02:38 PM
:iagree:

As much as I like Chuck, I agree with Jose in the respect we need some additional leadership sitting on the bench from the guys in suits.

Third line......

Before last season I might have agreed with you, but after Silas lost his mind during the Eric Snow incident I sincerely wonder about his mental stability. The last thing we need is another head case.

MagicRat
04-11-2006, 02:43 PM
I haven't read the article and I haven't read the rest of this thread yet so if this has already been brought up and discussed I apologize. My question is this: Larry is going to keep Rick around for next year, but is he going to give him an extension? Next year is the last year on his contract isn't it? I would think it would be very easy for the team to tune out a lame duck coach.

On Full Court Press today Mitch Lawrence said one of his sources told him that Rick went in a couple of weeks ago requesting an extension and was turned down, FWIW........

Bball
04-11-2006, 02:47 PM
I find it interesting that when the going is good it is all Donnie Walsh's doing and we hear how much he'll be missed when he finally retires.... when things are in the dumpster it is all the players' fault, the coach's fault, or especially Larry Bird's fault... but rarely does Donnie Walsh get mentioned. The teflon Don, I guess.

Maybe the problem is the two-headed monster approach in the front office...
Larry's said if you aren't playing for a championship then you are in the wrong business. Meanwhile, DW has talked about never risking the long term competitiveness of the team for a championship because he doesn't think Indy would support the process.

So we're somewhere in between and have been for a while... and we're still sinking.

-Bball

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 02:49 PM
I find it interesting that when the going is good it is all Donnie Walsh's doing and we hear how much he'll be missed when he finally retires.... when things are in the dumpster it is all the players' fault, the coach's fault, or especially Larry Bird's fault... but rarely does Donnie Walsh get mentioned. The teflon Don, I guess.

Maybe the problem is the two-headed monster approach in the front office...
Larry's said if you aren't playing for a championship then you are in the wrong business. Meanwhile, DW has talked about never risking the long term competitiveness of the team for a championship because he doesn't think Indy would support the process.

So we're somewhere in between and have been for a while... and we're still sinking.

-Bball

Big topic at the forum party - who is running the franchise?

I think we saw a conflict in the Maggette or Peja situation. Bird won.

Will he win this round?

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 02:52 PM
Meanwhile, DW has talked about never risking the long term competitiveness of the team for a championship because he doesn't think Indy would support the process.

You're twisting his words.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 02:52 PM
Big topic at the forum party - who is running the franchise?

I think we saw a conflict in the Maggette or Peja situation. Bird won.
Where do you get that?



Will he win this round?
That would be making a big assumption that Donnie wants Rick gone and Bird doesn't.

Bball
04-11-2006, 02:54 PM
You're twisting his words.

Enlighten me because I thought very hard on how I phrased that to be accurate as I could.

-Bball

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 02:56 PM
I find it interesting that when the going is good it is all Donnie Walsh's doing and we hear how much he'll be missed when he finally retires.... when things are in the dumpster it is all the players' fault, the coach's fault, or especially Larry Bird's fault... but rarely does Donnie Walsh get mentioned. The teflon Don, I guess.

Maybe the problem is the two-headed monster approach in the front office...

So I take it you're backing off your earlier assertions that Ron really *****d this franchise.

Bball
04-11-2006, 02:58 PM
Big topic at the forum party - who is running the franchise?


That's easy from what I've gathered reading around-
Things going good: Donnie Walsh is running things and Bird is simply watching and learning or simply the 3rd Mascot (Boomer, Bowser, and Bird).

Things going bad: Bird is entirely running things and running them into the ground or his narrow-minded, small town views are leading us to the lottery.

As I said... Teflon Don. The man can do no wrong for many of the faithful.

-Bball

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 02:59 PM
Enlighten me because I thought very hard on how I phrased that to be accurate as I could.

I know which article you're referring to, and I think what he said is that he has to keep this franchise competitive because it's not Penn station where if you make a wrong turn you wind up in MSG, or something to that effect. I don't recall him saying that he'd never risk the long term competitiveness of the team for a championship. You're hearing what you want to hear because you have obvious deep-seeded issues with Donnie.

Bball
04-11-2006, 03:00 PM
So I take it you're backing off your earlier assertions that Ron really *****d this franchise.

One man, especially not a player, couldn't wreck a franchise this thoroughly without some help....

-Bball

Indyfan
04-11-2006, 03:06 PM
On Full Court Press today Mitch Lawrence said one of his sources told him that Rick went in a couple of weeks ago requesting an extension and was turned down, FWIW........


What else did they say?

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 03:07 PM
One man, especially not a player, couldn't wreck a franchise this thoroughly without some help....

-Bball

This thoroughly :rolleyes: We're only headed into the playoffs. Stumbling perhaps, but we're still headed there. We're not the team we were 2 seasons ago, but a lot has happened since then, and a lot of that has to do with knucklehead. You can blame TPTB for what Donnie admitted to, "falling in love with talent," but it seems to me you're backing off your once-harsh indictment of Ron. That's okay. Time has a way of making people forget.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 03:10 PM
Walsh never gave Reggie Miller the kind of absurd, nine-figure contract the Knicks gave Allan Houston. Scott Layden ultimately put together an undersized, underskilled and overpaid roster, one that Thomas was left to remake. The cost? The Knicks are working on their fifth straight season of claiming fewer than 40 victories.

What he said:

"We can't afford to have seasons like that," Walsh said. "How many people go through Penn Station every day? If you walk through the wrong door, you end up inside the Garden. I don't have that in Indiana. We've got to put a good team on the floor here every year. We've got to win and create excitement to fill the building."
What you heard:

"I'll never risk the long term competitiveness of the team for a championship because I don't think Indy would support the process."

Bball
04-11-2006, 03:16 PM
This thoroughly :rolleyes: We're only headed into the playoffs. Stumbling perhaps, but we're still headed there. We're not the team we were 2 seasons ago, but a lot has happened since then, and a lot of that has to do with knucklehead. You can blame TPTB for what Donnie admitted to, "falling in love with talent," but it seems to me you're backing off your once-harsh indictment of Ron. That's okay. Time has a way of making people forget.


Well, I always caveated my comments about Ron with something along the lines of hoping we don't find out that JO made the Artest situation worse than it had to be... and that on another team with him as the #1 option everything would be fine.

It's WAY too early to declare things 'fine' in Sacremento but things certainly aren't fine here right now. Making the playoffs for the Pacers is really a joke at this point.

It's completely possible that Ron Artest could only be counted on to destory team unity... and that his comments about Carlisle were still right on the mark. It's also possible that JO made it impossible for he and Artest to co-exist and will make it impossible for anyone to threaten his current role on the team. Maybe we just had the ultimate trifecta in JO, Tins, Artest of bad eggs on one team?

My personal opinion is that Ron shouldn't be made the lone scapegoat for this season... nor should Larry Bird. ...nor should coach Carlisle. They can all share some blame tho. Even the Teflon Don.

-Bball

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 03:16 PM
That's easy from what I've gathered reading around-
Things going good: Donnie Walsh is running things and Bird is simply watching and learning or simply the 3rd Mascot (Boomer, Bowser, and Bird).

Things going bad: Bird is entirely running things and running them into the ground or his narrow-minded, small town views are leading us to the lottery.

As I said... Teflon Don. The man can do no wrong for many of the faithful.

-Bball

I really like you!

Arcadian
04-11-2006, 03:18 PM
I always thought it was Bender who destroyed and decimated the franchise leaving it in the wasteland that was once only Clipper territory. Either that of Tinsley's bench demeanor.

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 03:22 PM
Where do you get that?



That would be making a big assumption that Donnie wants Rick gone and Bird doesn't.


I just feel like there may have been some conflict over who to get in the Ronnie trade - and that there may be conflict over whether Rick stays. If Rick gets no extension, that will be a big indication.

We have to use our insights/gut feels here because Indianapolis apprantly has no real reporter or newspaper that would actually dig into things.

Yet - when a columnist who is paid to stir things up does - you all lament the fact that he is a lazy do-nothing hack who should be cleaning toilets.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 03:26 PM
Who is the "you" you're referring to?

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 03:29 PM
Who is the "you" you're referring to?

I have not come up with a list - but many people love to chime in with what drivel this article or that one is. I am not sure Shade has ever seen an article written that is not crap. There are many others - barely have time to post let alone go doing this research on everyone who hates sports columnists on this board.

Bball
04-11-2006, 03:30 PM
I always thought it was Bender who destroyed and decimated the franchise leaving it in the wasteland that was once only Clipper territory. Either that of Tinsley's bench demeanor.

All part of the bigger problem...

Holding onto mistakes too long and letting them fester and cost the team in chemistry and dollars.

Admit your mistake and move on, don't compound it. Whether you agree with my inclination that Tins is a malcontent, way too injury prone, and not worth the effort or Jay and his belief we've letting coaching sour a good player it doesn't matter... The over-riding point is still the same: We let something fester and fester until it blew up in our face.

DW didn't get the name "Donnie Do Nothing" by being a wheeler/dealer and not letting any moss grow.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 03:31 PM
Bird's still an idiot.

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 03:33 PM
Bird's still an idiot.

The Hick from French Lick and Donnie Do Nothing will lead us to the promised land!

Please... stop the madness.

Bball
04-11-2006, 03:34 PM
I fear Jay is getting close to going PFFL on us all here.... ;)


-Bball

Hicks
04-11-2006, 03:35 PM
As much as people ***** about them (and I'm referring mostly to Donnie here), this franchise has never had someone nearly as good before. And I don't mean it in the "one man's trash is another man's treasure" sort of way.

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 03:38 PM
As much as people ***** about them (and I'm referring mostly to Donnie here), this franchise has never had someone nearly as good before. And I don't mean it in the "one man's trash is another man's treasure" sort of way.

No argument

But when do you try and do better

I thought it was when Bird and his championship or bust mentality 'took over' (INSERT JAY'S PAT RESPONSE HERE)

Now we have 2 philosophys and one big hairy *** mess.

Arcadian
04-11-2006, 03:38 PM
All part of the bigger problem...

Holding onto mistakes too long and letting them fester and cost the team in chemistry and dollars.

Admit your mistake and move on, don't compound it. -Bball

Dispite all his talk I see Bird doing the same things that you're accusing Donnie of doing. It wasn't Donnie on SI's cover.

By the way I'm all for including Donnie in the blame. However, Donnie isn't the one talking to the press and making promises. Donnie isn't the one who is being groomed to take over the franchise and set up as the face of the francise. Perhaps JO and Larry have somethings in common.

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 03:39 PM
I have far more faith in Donnie than I do in Bird. Donnie has built TWO very talented teams. The first one made it to the NBA finals and was a contender for 6 years. Thats impressive. The second one made the ECF but has had the wrong coach the entire time. This team we have now is young athletic and talented. Sure there are some problems that need sorted out but they have a lot of talent and thats hard to replace.

I just feel that if it were up to Donnie we would get a new coach and see how these guys respond (with a few minor tweeks) but with Bird we are going to Keep his guy and dump the talented team Donnie built.

We are going to throw a lot of money at Peja because of Bird and I think thats a mistake. Danny is the future of the sf position not Peja.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 03:52 PM
DW didn't get the name "Donnie Do Nothing" by being a wheeler/dealer and not letting any moss grow.

Ask general sports/basketball fans who know who he is and ask, "Who is Donnie Do Nothing?" I think you'll be met with blank stares. Actually, the Knicks announcers referred to him last night as "one of the elite GMs in the league." I don't think you get that reputation either by letting moss grow.

Bball
04-11-2006, 04:07 PM
IMHO, if it was up to Donnie, and it very well probably is exactly that, he'd retain Rick Carlisle (IMHO). There are plenty of excuses to keep Rick no matter if you feel there are overriding factors against him. The Simons could probably name 4 million reasons to keep him right off the bat.

DW was going to keep Isiah... or didn't have the cajones to fire him himself (pick whichever scenario you want). If Isiah was justified in getting his 4th year, or DW couldn't bring himself to fire him, then of course Carlisle would be safe.

Our only hope of seeing Carlisle gone was that Bird had loftier goals for the coaching and staff and the thought that he was serious about his '3 yr rule'.

I don't seriously think DW would overrule Bird and fire Carlisle... because I never thought, if left to his own, DW would fire him anyway.

Loyal to a fault... slow to pull the trigger... patience for years...
And still some think that whatever bad things happen it's Bird's fault and Donnie would've certainly done the 'right' thing himself. Teflon...

-Bball

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 04:10 PM
But if Bird said "I'm going to replace him", DW wouldn't stop him either.

He's in the best of all worlds. If Larry does something wrong, its Larry's fault. If Larry does something right, they share in the credit.

Where can I get that job?

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 04:15 PM
But if Bird said "I'm going to replace him", DW wouldn't stop him either.

He's in the best of all worlds. If Larry does something wrong, its Larry's fault. If Larry does something right, they share in the credit.

Where can I get that job?

Get a law degree, go work as an assistant coach in college for 10-12 years, become an assistant coach at the professional level, then a head coach, and then pursue your dream job in the same way a man whose hair is on fire pursues water. You know, the typical overnight success thing.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 04:17 PM
Loyal to a fault... slow to pull the trigger... patience for years...

An obvious recipe for failure.

Bball
04-11-2006, 04:24 PM
An obvious recipe for failure.

Nope, just a recipe for a GM of a team that could never get the final piece to get them over the hump.

Some would call that failure in hindsight...

-Bball

Los Angeles
04-11-2006, 04:40 PM
You guys are wonderful.

I think we should schedule a weekly "**** on the management" meeting.

If you're so upset about how "flawed" or "incomplete" our team has been over the last 15 years, go look at the records of the Hawks, the Clippers, etc. etc. Go see what gambling and rebuilding has done for the Twolves, the Knicks, the Celtics and the Bulls (all of whom have been top-tier franchises).

You have to build a small market team in the draft and through trades. You will not land big free agents because they by and large want to live in Miami, NY, Dallas or any place warmer or more exciting.

We should be all be proud and down right thankful to the businessmen behind the franchise and the city at large. They've put out a superior product by emphasising a value that Hoosiers hold dear: Loyalty to the fans.

They've done it for decades and the city is better for it.

They get my loyalty in return, and I don't even live there any more.

Ralph Snart
04-11-2006, 04:42 PM
The big thing for me, when it comes dow to it, is that the coach doesn't matter as much as we think he does. Look at the good teams in the league: If Alfred J. Prufock was coaching the Pistons, don't you think they would still win?

The problem with the Pacers right now is that they are completely unmotivated - they're mailing it in. Part of that comes down on Carlisle, but a big chunk of comes down on the players. If you don't have the hussle to beat your man back down court after your team made a basket, you shouldn't be playing.

There are aspects of Carlisle's coaching style that bother me, but, to be honest, the lack of heart and hussle the players have been showing worries me more. I'm sick of the gamemanship, I'm sick of the complaining, I'm sick of the laziness.

Last night's game was a perfect example, it was like a "who's the ugliest" beauty contest. Last year's Pacers would have taken this year's Pacers team behind the woodshed for playing so poorly against such a crap opponent. The Knicks sucked and we played just as badly as they did in the first half.

So, I say keep Carlisle, and shake up the lineup. I don't even care if we end up starting 5 nobodies, as long as the team plays hard, professionally, and acts like it gives a damn.

Lord Helmet
04-11-2006, 04:47 PM
You guys are wonderful.

I think we should schedule a weekly "**** on the management" meeting.

If you're so upset about how "flawed" or "incomplete" our team has been over the last 15 years, go look at the records of the Hawks, the Clippers, etc. etc. Go see what gambling and rebuilding has done for the Twolves, the Knicks, the Celtics and the Bulls (all of whom have been top-tier franchises).

You have to build a small market team in the draft and through trades. You will not land big free agents because they by and large want to live in Miami, NY, Dallas or any place warmer or more exciting.

We should be all be proud and down right thankful to the businessmen behind the franchise and the city at large. They've put out a superior product by emphasising a value that Hoosiers hold dear: Loyalty to the fans.

They've done it for decades and the city is better for it.

They get my loyalty in return, and I don't even live there any more.
Nice post. Can't say I don't agree.

Since86
04-11-2006, 04:59 PM
The big thing for me, when it comes dow to it, is that the coach doesn't matter as much as we think he does. Look at the good teams in the league: If Alfred J. Prufock was coaching the Pistons, don't you think they would still win?

The problem with the Pacers right now is that they are completely unmotivated - they're mailing it in. Part of that comes down on Carlisle, but a big chunk of comes down on the players. If you don't have the hussle to beat your man back down court after your team made a basket, you shouldn't be playing.

There are aspects of Carlisle's coaching style that bother me, but, to be honest, the lack of heart and hussle the players have been showing worries me more. I'm sick of the gamemanship, I'm sick of the complaining, I'm sick of the laziness.

Last night's game was a perfect example, it was like a "who's the ugliest" beauty contest. Last year's Pacers would have taken this year's Pacers team behind the woodshed for playing so poorly against such a crap opponent. The Knicks sucked and we played just as badly as they did in the first half.

So, I say keep Carlisle, and shake up the lineup. I don't even care if we end up starting 5 nobodies, as long as the team plays hard, professionally, and acts like it gives a damn.

:amen:

I'd like to add that the particular coach that's being hung out to dry is also a top 5 coach in the league. There's a 95% chance any coach that replaces him is going to be worse.

Bball
04-11-2006, 05:14 PM
If you're so upset about how "flawed" or "incomplete" our team has been over the last 15 years, go look at the records of the Hawks, the Clippers, etc. etc. Go see what gambling and rebuilding has done for the Twolves, the Knicks, the Celtics and the Bulls (all of whom have been top-tier franchises).

Y

How about we use successful franchises as a measuring stick instead of some historically inept teams or teams who've made a monumental blunder or were the victims of some bad luck and followed it with questionable moves?

Would it really be that hard for the Joe Dumars model to work in Indy? ....Because that is what I've always wanted from management even before there was a Joe Dumars model.

Or is it that DW simply isn't good enough to do that (evaluate talent/chemistry, work the phones, realize and cut his losses sooner, etc)?

-Bball

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 05:19 PM
You have to build a small market team in the draft and through trades. You will not land big free agents because they by and large want to live in Miami, NY, Dallas or any place warmer or more exciting.


Put down the kool aid

That just is not true - Donnie's inferiority complex is alive and well.

The NBA has this thing - it's called a salary cap. And if you have room under the cap, guess what, you will attract free agents.

Now many of you will point to the Atlanta's (hey - it is warm there, no?) and say money under the cap does not mean you attract players. No - combine money under the cap with a competitive team and you attract players.

If I were a player over the summer and Orlando offered me $5 million and Detroit offered me the same money - I would be in Detroit... and no offense to Detroit, but how is that - as a CITY - a more attractive destination than Indianapolis?

Knucklehead Warrior
04-11-2006, 05:37 PM
You guys are wonderful.

I think we should schedule a weekly "**** on the management" meeting.

If you're so upset about how "flawed" or "incomplete" our team has been over the last 15 years, go look at the records of the Hawks, the Clippers, etc. etc. Go see what gambling and rebuilding has done for the Twolves, the Knicks, the Celtics and the Bulls (all of whom have been top-tier franchises).

You have to build a small market team in the draft and through trades. You will not land big free agents because they by and large want to live in Miami, NY, Dallas or any place warmer or more exciting.

We should be all be proud and down right thankful to the businessmen behind the franchise and the city at large. They've put out a superior product by emphasising a value that Hoosiers hold dear: Loyalty to the fans.

They've done it for decades and the city is better for it.

They get my loyalty in return, and I don't even live there any more.

Thank you LA.


So, I say keep Carlisle, and shake up the lineup. I don't even care if we end up starting 5 nobodies, as long as the team plays hard, professionally, and acts like it gives a damn.
THIS is what we liked about last year's team and what is hated now.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 05:43 PM
If I were a player over the summer and Orlando offered me $5 million and Detroit offered me the same money - I would be in Detroit... and no offense to Detroit, but how is that - as a CITY - a more attractive destination than Indianapolis?

I think it has a lot to do with management more than anything.

Detroit couldn't attract free agents for a long, long time, because in part because management's reputation was smeared among players for how they tossed a lot of the bad boys to the curb, instead of letting them retire as Pistons.

Not only couldnt the Pistons sign any decent players, they couldnt re-sign their own stars. Allan Houston comes to mind. After Shaq, Grant Hill leaving Detroit was easilythe 2nd-biggest free agent defection of all time.

It took Joe Dumars a few years to change that. His first 3 years, Joe couldnt BEG people onto the Pistons.

He gave Jud Bucheler an insane contract, for no other reason than because pistons management had promised him theyd take care of him, and it had nothing to do with Joe. He was trying to re-build his credibility with the players.

He let Ced Ceballos leave on his own mid-season and join Miami. Ced in return made it known around the league that Joe was a GM you could trust to take care of you.

by 2002, Joe had enough clout around the NBA that he was able to land the biggest free-agent PG in Chauncey Billups.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 06:11 PM
How about we use successful franchises as a measuring stick instead of some historically inept teams or teams who've made a monumental blunder or were the victims of some bad luck and followed it with questionable moves?

I think most people around the league would consider the Pacers to be one of those successful franchises to use as a measuring stick.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 06:20 PM
That just is not true - Donnie's inferiority complex is alive and well.

Donnie has an inferiority complex? That is beyond comical.



If I were a player over the summer and Orlando offered me $5 million and Detroit offered me the same money - I would be in Detroit... and no offense to Detroit, but how is that - as a CITY - a more attractive destination than Indianapolis?

You do know the Pacers approached Shaq's agent when it was clear he was going to be traded and he said he wasn't interested in going to Indianapolis. And I don't think LA was talking about mid-level talent.

Bball
04-11-2006, 06:20 PM
I think most people around the league would consider the Pacers to be one of those successful franchises to use as a measuring stick.

If you are under us, then I'd agree. OTOH, you can't seriously be saying the Pacers are at the top of the heap looking back down the mountain at the rest of the league? Until we're in that position then we need to be measuring ourselves against the best of the best.

-Bball

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 06:25 PM
If you are under us, then I'd agree. OTOH, you can't seriously be saying the Pacers are at the top of the heap looking back down the mountain at the rest of the league? Until we're in that position then we need to be measuring ourselves against the best of the best.

I think going into the season, most people around the league thought we were among the best of the best.

Bball
04-11-2006, 06:29 PM
I think going into the season, most people around the league thought we were among the best of the best.

They would've been wrong...

This has to be one of the most mentally weak Pacer teams ever collected. In hindsight there was no way they were getting up from under the bus Stern threw them under once Reggie was gone and their egos were left unchecked.

I can't believe JO, heading into the season, proclaimed this one of the best ever Pacer teams (did he actually say) in the past 8 or so years.

-Bball

indygeezer
04-11-2006, 06:55 PM
And so we,like a hungry pack of woves, turn from chasing the players to hunting management.

We go from hating .....(insert player name) to despising...(insert another player name) and then finally turn upon (coaches), (president), (GM).

It must be a losing season.


What I've noticed is that ever since RA's antics started this forum (and others) has divided itself into camps. Those that blame XYZ and those that vindicate XYZ but blame WXY....and on it goes. Seems as tho rather than think of the TEAM everybody wants to go ISO and blame their favorite whipping boy and love their own personal favorite. We should be looking to fix this disaster and stop trying to fix blame.

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 07:08 PM
Well you might as well shoot me. Great job Bird, now we get to trade Jermaine bring in a low post player worse then him and watch Rick try to make him into Shaq and Tim Duncan combined. One more year of losing 15 point leads every time we get them.

YAY

Bball
04-11-2006, 07:11 PM
And so we,like a hungry pack of woves, turn from chasing the players to hunting management.

We go from hating .....(insert player name) to despising...(insert another player name) and then finally turn upon (coaches), (president), (GM).

It must be a losing season.


What I've noticed is that ever since RA's antics started this forum (and others) has divided itself into camps. Those that blame XYZ and those that vindicate XYZ but blame WXY....and on it goes. Seems as tho rather than think of the TEAM everybody wants to go ISO and blame their favorite whipping boy and love their own personal favorite. We should be looking to fix this disaster and stop trying to fix blame.


Hearing that management planned to keep Carlisle didn't give me the warm fuzzies regarding management. Hopefully, Andy is correct and it's all just talk right now.

I'm starting to wonder if $$$ are the issue and we'll keep Carlisle on as a lame duck coach and not have to 'pay' two coaches next season. And so the new look Pacers will still have a heavy dose of Iso Ball and little player development for the young guys.... which could mean we'll really be at an awkward place next year at this time.

I was fully expecting, and would be behind, a new coach, a LOOOOONG meeting with several players, and several players shown the door. I fear we're doing what Pacer management seems to always do, only going halfway.



-Bball

Doug in CO
04-11-2006, 07:35 PM
Donnie has an inferiority complex? That is beyond comical.


I believe that Donnie's inferiority complex over the market he is in drives all of his decisions. Mostly, it drives his decisions to lock up players for a long time because he is scared to lose them or anticipates not being able to land a free agent (do we even try?)

And he usually ends up regretting the signings (i.e. Jalen Rose, and now, arguably, JO). That's not to mention you know who or Croshere. Thankfully, someone showed restraint when it came to Fred.

Don't give me Shaq - there was only one place he would go. And that was a trade. I believe he will go after KG if he is available. I do not believe he will aggressively pursue free agents (although we are not under the cap so that discussion is pointless).

Los Angeles
04-11-2006, 07:36 PM
You do know the Pacers approached Shaq's agent when it was clear he was going to be traded and he said he wasn't interested in going to Indianapolis. And I don't think LA was talking about mid-level talent.
Correct.

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 07:42 PM
Bird is an idiot.

grace
04-11-2006, 08:00 PM
Bird is an idiot.

He's our idiot so live with it.

SoupIsGood
04-11-2006, 08:10 PM
Rick deserves another year.

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 08:12 PM
When we miss the playoffs next year because Rick will try to run a half court offense with jumpshooters will you say he deserves one more year again.

SoupIsGood
04-11-2006, 08:16 PM
When we miss the playoffs next year because Rick will try to run a half court offense with jumpshooters will you say he deserves one more year again.

Nonsense

Aw Heck
04-11-2006, 08:17 PM
When we miss the playoffs next year because Rick will try to run a half court offense with jumpshooters will you say he deserves one more year again.
If he coaches the Pacers to a 61-win season with that team and takes them to the Eastern Conference Finals, would you still call him a joke and want him to be fired?

Kstat
04-11-2006, 08:18 PM
He's our idiot so live with it.


Well, technically John Paxon is your idiot....

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 08:23 PM
If he coaches the Pacers to a 61-win season with that team and takes them to the Eastern Conference Finals, would you still call him a joke and want him to be fired?Mike Brown and Ron Artest coached that team to a 61 win season. We won beacuse of our defense and who made all the calls on defense? Wouldnt you know it MIKE BROWN. Mike Brown was the best coach on this team and not having him this year exposes how bad of a coach he is.

Sollozzo
04-11-2006, 08:27 PM
Donnie has an inferiority complex? That is beyond comical.




You do know the Pacers approached Shaq's agent when it was clear he was going to be traded and he said he wasn't interested in going to Indianapolis. And I don't think LA was talking about mid-level talent.



There were probably only a couple of places Shaq would have even considered. He probably wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere but a southern beach city. That leaves very little destinations. Shaq would have rejected Chicago, Denver, Boston, Seattle, etc....

SoupIsGood
04-11-2006, 08:28 PM
Mike Brown and Ron Artest coached that team to a 61 win season. We won beacuse of our defense and who made all the calls on defense? Wouldnt you know it MIKE BROWN. Mike Brown was the best coach on this team and not having him this year exposes how bad of a coach he is.

:lmao:

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 08:29 PM
You think if Ron wasnt on that team and didnt become an all star that year we would have been as good as we where. Ron was the key to that whole team. Open your eyes son.

SoupIsGood
04-11-2006, 08:33 PM
Yeah he played well, but coached? Just didn't seem right. Ron was a beast on the court, but pretty loopy off of it.

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 08:36 PM
I didnt actually mean Ron coached them, I mean he was the biggest reason we won 61. Sorry bout that, didnt say it right.

brichard
04-11-2006, 08:49 PM
It is so easy to b!tch every single year about management. You see, if your team doesn't win a championship, which only one team in the entire league wins each year, you can achieve a prophet like status on the Pacers Digest forum. Donnie is an idiot (insert whatever current excuse seems convenient) and that is why the Pacers don't win championships.

I wish that some people would realize that part of it is skill on the GM's part, but part of it is luck that you get a guy like a Bird, Johnson, or Jordan that really is as good as advertised or doesn't get injured. Say whatever you want positive or negative about Walsh, but try to be balanced about it for once... sheesh!

Aw Heck
04-11-2006, 08:59 PM
Mike Brown and Ron Artest coached that team to a 61 win season. We won beacuse of our defense and who made all the calls on defense? Wouldnt you know it MIKE BROWN. Mike Brown was the best coach on this team and not having him this year exposes how bad of a coach he is.
Yes, Ron was a big part of that team and so was Mike Brown. So I take it you're saying Rick had absolutely no responsibility for the success of that season? That anybody could've been head coach, but they'd still win 61 games because of Mike Brown and Ron Artest?

You know what else was responsible for the success that season? Everybody stayed healthy and Ron-Ron kept his head on straight. We've been without those two things the past two seasons and that's had a big impact.

Well, since according to you Carlisle is just an incompetent coach, I have some questions. Since Carlisle can't coach, how do explain them winning 50 games in his first season in Detroit, when they had lost 50 games the season before that? Who was REALLY coaching? Mike Brown and Ron Artest weren't there. Billups wasn't there yet, Chucky Atkins was the starting PG. Ben Wallace was there, but he was also on the 32-50 team the season before. Rip wasn't there, Stackhouse was. And instead of Prince and Sheed, they had Curry and Robinson.

rm1369
04-11-2006, 09:01 PM
How about we use successful franchises as a measuring stick instead of some historically inept teams or teams who've made a monumental blunder or were the victims of some bad luck and followed it with questionable moves?

Would it really be that hard for the Joe Dumars model to work in Indy? ....Because that is what I've always wanted from management even before there was a Joe Dumars model.

Or is it that DW simply isn't good enough to do that (evaluate talent/chemistry, work the phones, realize and cut his losses sooner, etc)?

-Bball


BBall, I'm curious as to how many other franchises fit your model over the last 15 - 20 years. I can't think of another contending team that made a major acquistion that paid off other than Dumars' no risk trade for Rasheed. I realize that he has made many other good moves, but I don't think Dumars would be as compelling an example if Rent-a -Sheed hadn't occured. Obviuosly Shaq going to LA paid off, but I don't think that falls into you position. I certainly don't believe that Miami's trade for Shaq (a much better comparison) has worked out very well. At least IMO.

I'm not actually trying argue a point, I just can't remember if any other examples have occured. I have tended to (mostly) agree with DW's approach to building and maintaining a team. I've always felt that unless you had the very best player in the league your best bet was to make yourelf one of the 3 or 4 best teams and hope your the team that gets lucky. I guess Dumars could be an example of both ways - Dumars has made good moves, but they have also gotten (or earned if you prefer) some good breaks. Especially the health of the their 2 main rivals in Indy and Miami. If MJ had gotten hurt in game 7 and the Pacers won a title, would your view of Donnie and his patience be any different?

By the way, I am in no way trying to degrade Detroit or the job Dumars has done.

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 09:08 PM
Yes, Ron was a big part of that team and so was Mike Brown. So I take it you're saying Rick had absolutely no responsibility for the success of that season? That anybody could've been head coach, but they'd still win 61 games because of Mike Brown and Ron Artest?

You know what else was responsible for the success that season? Everybody stayed healthy and Ron-Ron kept his head on straight. We've been without those two things the past two seasons and that's had a big impact.

Well, since according to you Carlisle is just an incompetent coach, I have some questions. Since Carlisle can't coach, how do explain them winning 50 games in his first season in Detroit, when they had lost 50 games the season before that? Who was REALLY coaching? Mike Brown and Ron Artest weren't there. Billups wasn't there yet, Chucky Atkins was the starting PG. Ben Wallace was there, but he was also on the 32-50 team the season before. Rip wasn't there, Stackhouse was. And instead of Prince and Sheed, they had Curry and Robinson.
I really dont care about what he did with the Pistons its what he did with us, and as soon as Mike Brown left he has been exposed.

Aw Heck
04-11-2006, 09:13 PM
I really dont care about what he did with the Pistons its what he did with us, and as soon as Mike Brown left he has been exposed.
I don't see that at all. What I've seen this season and last season is a team decimated by injuries and distractions. Last season the Pacers had Reggie and Dale to keep them afloat. They don't this season. Give Carlisle a team that stays healthy and distraction free and I think you'll see another 50+ win season. Mike Brown's a good coach, but so is Carlisle. And Carlisle has won without him.

rm1369
04-11-2006, 09:39 PM
Well, since according to you Carlisle is just an incompetent coach, I have some questions. Since Carlisle can't coach, how do explain them winning 50 games in his first season in Detroit, when they had lost 50 games the season before that? Who was REALLY coaching? Mike Brown and Ron Artest weren't there. Billups wasn't there yet, Chucky Atkins was the starting PG. Ben Wallace was there, but he was also on the 32-50 team the season before. Rip wasn't there, Stackhouse was. And instead of Prince and Sheed, they had Curry and Robinson.

I know this question was directed at Jermaniac, but I wanted to answer as well.

That Pistons team was long on hustle and short on talent - just like last years Pacers team. I wonder if Ricks style wasn't born during that season. You can win regular season games by playing extremely hard and minimizing possesions and mistakes. Remember Fratellos' Cav's teams? I think Rick is a very good coach as long as he can play that style. I believe the problem is that at some point talent becomes a factor. I don't believe Rick's style will be embraced by enough talented players to ever get a title. Unless he changes and loosens the reins. Or I suppose you could turn over your roster ever 2 years before the players get tired of the boring, controling game Rick favors.

Ricks certainly not the only person to blame, but IMO he is the biggest. I don't believe he has taken into account the strengths and weaknesses of this team. I believe he has tried to play his way even if it doesn't fit the strength of his players. I believe he has misused JO, AJ, Tinsley, Harrison, SJax, and Saras. Those players are certainly not without fault, but I've always thought a coach (or managers) job was to use his resources in the most effective way possible. He has not done that IMO. He is certainly not the coach I'd want to lead a rebuilding. Unless of course you consider watching AJ, Fred, Peja, Croshere, and Foster grind out 45-50 wins rebuilding.

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 09:42 PM
Ohh and Rick Carlisle will ruin Danny Granger, and David Harrison. How the **** is a player suposed to develope when he isnt allowed to make mistakes. I feel sorry for the rookie we take with our pick draft day.

indygeezer
04-11-2006, 09:47 PM
What I see is a team that has to have it's "leader" called out by a role player to be a leader. A team that has to have that same role player call a team meeting in order to pull itself together enough to beat the Knicks at home. I see a team who has lost focus without #31's presence and inspiration to rally around. I see a team that without this on-court leadership has fractured and fallen apart. A "team" that has forgotten how to be a team and play to win together. I see guys who are trying to take the easy way out and do it all themselves rather than stick together and play the system. A team that no longer believes in each other and only in themselves individually.

And yes I am seeing all of this from what I know of this team BEFORE they truely fell apart. I admit I haven't seen them in the last few weeks, but I haven't needed to. I can see their play plainly without ever seeing a recent game...the people "responsible" for this debacle have given me plenty of examples to draw from without seeing them recently.

bulletproof
04-11-2006, 09:50 PM
BBall, I'm curious as to how many other franchises fit your model over the last 15 - 20 years. I can't think of another contending team that made a major acquistion that paid off other than Dumars' no risk trade for Rasheed. I realize that he has made many other good moves, but I don't think Dumars would be as compelling an example if Rent-a -Sheed hadn't occured. Obviuosly Shaq going to LA paid off, but I don't think that falls into you position. I certainly don't believe that Miami's trade for Shaq (a much better comparison) has worked out very well. At least IMO.

I'm not actually trying argue a point, I just can't remember if any other examples have occured. I have tended to (mostly) agree with DW's approach to building and maintaining a team. I've always felt that unless you had the very best player in the league your best bet was to make yourelf one of the 3 or 4 best teams and hope your the team that gets lucky. I guess Dumars could be an example of both ways - Dumars has made good moves, but they have also gotten (or earned if you prefer) some good breaks. Especially the health of the their 2 main rivals in Indy and Miami. If MJ had gotten hurt in game 7 and the Pacers won a title, would your view of Donnie and his patience be any different?

By the way, I am in no way trying to degrade Detroit or the job Dumars has done.

OMG, you're trying to use logic and reason!

Kstat
04-11-2006, 09:50 PM
The Pistons in 2002 had added Damon Jones, Corliss Williamson, Cliff Robinson, Zeljiko Rebraca and Jon Barry.

Stack and Ben weren't much better in 2002 either. It was the fact we had the top-ranked bench in the NBA for that season, and almost every player was a new aquisition.

Half the roster was different from 2001. It was most definately not the same team.

pizza guy
04-11-2006, 10:00 PM
I think Larry is telling the truth. That there won't be much "golfing" this summer, they're going to be very busy. That's what we've wanted though, isn't it? Not sure what I think about keeping Rick on board. He's a good coach, and maybe the new faces will do him well, but I just can't be too optimistic in that regard.

Bball
04-11-2006, 10:15 PM
It is so easy to b!tch every single year about management. You see, if your team doesn't win a championship, which only one team in the entire league wins each year, you can achieve a prophet like status on the Pacers Digest forum. Donnie is an idiot (insert whatever current excuse seems convenient) and that is why the Pacers don't win championships.

I wish that some people would realize that part of it is skill on the GM's part, but part of it is luck that you get a guy like a Bird, Johnson, or Jordan that really is as good as advertised or doesn't get injured. Say whatever you want positive or negative about Walsh, but try to be balanced about it for once... sheesh!


Well, speaking for myself, management was sliding under the radar as we all waited on the hammer to fall until Bird claimed Carlisle is staying. IMHO, the coach AND some players need changed and not doing this does cast a more critical eye toward management. The other stuff in that regard is beside the point... it is background.... nothing more.

I still find it interesting that DW can dodge any and all blame but Bird can't.

-Bball

Bball
04-11-2006, 10:30 PM
BBall, I'm curious as to how many other franchises fit your model over the last 15 - 20 years. I can't think of another contending team that made a major acquistion that paid off other than Dumars' no risk trade for Rasheed. I realize that he has made many other good moves, but I don't think Dumars would be as compelling an example if Rent-a -Sheed hadn't occured. Obviuosly Shaq going to LA paid off, but I don't think that falls into you position. I certainly don't believe that Miami's trade for Shaq (a much better comparison) has worked out very well. At least IMO.

I'm not actually trying argue a point, I just can't remember if any other examples have occured. I have tended to (mostly) agree with DW's approach to building and maintaining a team. I've always felt that unless you had the very best player in the league your best bet was to make yourelf one of the 3 or 4 best teams and hope your the team that gets lucky. I guess Dumars could be an example of both ways - Dumars has made good moves, but they have also gotten (or earned if you prefer) some good breaks. Especially the health of the their 2 main rivals in Indy and Miami. If MJ had gotten hurt in game 7 and the Pacers won a title, would your view of Donnie and his patience be any different?

By the way, I am in no way trying to degrade Detroit or the job Dumars has done.


Dumars built a contender by not standing pat, and by not holding on to mistakes. He's constantly looking to make his team better. He's constantly keeping the fan base energized. He's not just trying to make the playoffs, he's trying to hang banners. He's not afraid to pull the trigger on making a move. Second best and crossed fingers aren't good enough.

It's not that I saw Dumars and said that's how I want the Pacers GM to be... it's that I've wanted the Pacers GM to be more active in a way like that (before Dumars) and was told how wrong I was and that DW's way was the way to the promised land... and lo and behold Dumars comes along and does things like much I wanted from our management... and it worked. They are truly contending, have hung a new banner, played for a second consectutive championship, and are certainly favorites to get back there again.

Meanwhile, the Pacers imploded.

And you know what? I don't think we can ever out maneuver Dumars with Walsh calling the shots because Dumars' method is clearly superior to Walsh's and he'll always trump us in the end. We're not going to out maneuver Detroit by standing pat.

....Well, I don't know how we can stand pat at this point so maybe something can happen. But only going part way is what historically we can expect. And Bird's announcement that Carlisle stays smells like we're about to only do something part way.


-Bball

indygeezer
04-11-2006, 10:30 PM
Well, speaking for myself, management was sliding under the radar as we all waited on the hammer to fall until Bird claimed Carlisle is staying. IMHO, the coach AND some players need changed and not doing this does cast a more critical eye toward management. The other stuff in that regard is beside the point... it is background.... nothing more.

I still find it interesting that DW can dodge any and all blame but Bird can't.

-Bball


That wouldn't be their fault tho would it? It's ours...the ones who wish to attribute specific mentalities to Larry and Donnie anyway. Since I'm not an insider I cannot attribute blame or praise to either of them (but it can be fun to do so anyway at times...I choose not to at this point)

As for the rest of your comment, I am in complete agreement with you.

Hicks
04-11-2006, 10:34 PM
Bball and Doug/OH, what franchises do you feel the Pacers look up to in terms of how to do things?

What do those franchises do, that we could be doing, but aren't, to make them better than us?

Hicks
04-11-2006, 10:39 PM
Dumars built a contender by not standing pat, and by not holding on to mistakes. He's constantly looking to make his team better. He's constantly keeping the fan base energized. He's not just trying to make the playoffs, he's trying to hang banners. He's not afraid to pull the trigger on making a move. Second best and crossed fingers aren't good enough.

It's not that I saw Dumars and said that's how I want the Pacers GM to be... it's that I've wanted the Pacers GM to be more active in a way like that (before Dumars) and was told how wrong I was and that DW's way was the way to the promised land... and lo and behold Dumars comes along and does things like much I wanted from our management... and it worked. They are truly contending, have hung a new banner, played for a second consectutive championship, and are certainly favorites to get back there again.

Meanwhile, the Pacers imploded.

And you know what? I don't think we can ever out maneuver Dumars with Walsh calling the shots because Dumars' method is clearly superior to Walsh's and he'll always trump us in the end. We're not going to out maneuver Detroit by standing pat.

....Well, I don't know how we can stand pat at this point so maybe something can happen. But only going part way is what historically we can expect. And Bird's announcement that Carlisle stays smells like we're about to only do something part way.


-Bball

You go too far in making it sound like Dumars was making can't-miss decisions. He got lucky. He's intelligent, he knows what he's doing, but he was lucky Rasheed not only didn't wreck the team, but ended up being the PERFECT fit. You can't KNOW that's going to happen before it does. You can only hope. Secondly, he was lucky that trade was even available. How often do you get an all-star glue-guy without even trading a starter?!

Then we look at the coaching situation. Yeah, you can say he got rid of Carlisle before things got stale, but does he make that move if Larry Brown isn't available? I doubt it. Same with Brown and Saunders this summer.

So give Joe a ton of credit, but let's not act like he earned 100% of this by just doing things the way you should; luck is ALWAYS a factor, and he was very much so to get to a title, a finals appearance, and probably another title. Now, he worked and used his brain to get the opportunity, but luck was a major player too.

With that said, I'd rather our GM be more like him. But when I read your post, it just said "if you do it this way, you can't lose" to me.

Shade
04-11-2006, 10:39 PM
Bball and Doug/OH, what franchises do you feel the Pacers look up to in terms of how to do things?

What do those franchises do, that we could be doing, but aren't, to make them better than us?

The Pistons and Spurs immediately come to mind.

MagicRat
04-11-2006, 10:40 PM
What else did they say?
As I know you're a fan of NBA radio programs, I thought I'd post the segment where they talk Pacers. It's about 20 minutes: starts out Pacers (due to the Kravitz column), a little T-Wolves, then they break down the remaining games of the teams still in the playoff hunt in the east.

Ian Eagle and Mitch Lawrence were the hosts today. Typically it's Ian and Kenny Smith, but they rotate in a few different people when either Ian or Kenny have other stuff going on. It's on M-F from Noon-3 on 123. It's usually pretty entertaining. Highly recommended for anyone with Sirius.

http://prometheus.able-towers.com/~magicrat/fcp41106.mp3 (http://prometheus.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/fcp41106.mp3)

Hicks
04-11-2006, 10:41 PM
The Pistons and Spurs immediately come to mind.

Well, answering the first question isn't that hard. It's going over the second one with pain-staking detail that I'm looking for.

You fail!
:stewie:

rm1369
04-11-2006, 10:43 PM
Dumars built a contender by not standing pat, and by not holding on to mistakes. He's constantly looking to make his team better. He's constantly keeping the fan base energized. He's not just trying to make the playoffs, he's trying to hang banners. He's not afraid to pull the trigger on making a move. Second best and crossed fingers aren't good enough.

It's not that I saw Dumars and said that's how I want the Pacers GM to be... it's that I've wanted the Pacers GM to be more active in a way like that (before Dumars) and was told how wrong I was and that DW's way was the way to the promised land... and lo and behold Dumars comes along and does things like much I wanted from our management... and it worked. They are truly contending, have hung a new banner, played for a second consectutive championship, and are certainly favorites to get back there again.

Meanwhile, the Pacers imploded.

And you know what? I don't think we can ever out maneuver Dumars with Walsh calling the shots because Dumars' method is clearly superior to Walsh's and he'll always trump us in the end. We're not going to out maneuver Detroit by standing pat.

....Well, I don't know how we can stand pat at this point so maybe something can happen. But only going part way is what historically we can expect. And Bird's announcement that Carlisle stays smells like we're about to only do something part way.


-Bball


I guess I understand where your coming from and I certainly agree with Carlisle. But I still have the same question - how many other title contenders have used that aggressive approach and succeeded? I'm open to the idea that more aggressive is better, but I guess I need more proof. One instance is not enough for me to change my belief. I was hoping since you believed in that philosophy you would know more examples. I'll research it some time. I'm truly curious as to which system has historically been better. Or do both work equally well and its just a matter of your prefered style?

brichard
04-11-2006, 10:47 PM
Well, speaking for myself, management was sliding under the radar as we all waited on the hammer to fall until Bird claimed Carlisle is staying. IMHO, the coach AND some players need changed and not doing this does cast a more critical eye toward management. The other stuff in that regard is beside the point... it is background.... nothing more.

I still find it interesting that DW can dodge any and all blame but Bird can't.

-Bball

Well I for one have not given him a free pass, but perhaps you or others may interpret it that way.

Donnie "Do Nothing" took some risks and actually... I'm glad. He gambled on a young pogo stick who failed. He took a 3rd stringer who became an AllStar, and he took a malcontent who achieved All Defensive status before spiraling out of control.

Unfortunately a good portion of his risks failed, and the chemistry element of this team just isn't making it happen. He put the puzzle pieces together post 2000 and made another ECF run. Unfortunately this group didn't have any of the staying power of the old group and just disintegrated. Even the best of teams (see LA w/ Kobe and Shaq) fizzle out eventually, but man... what a short trip this team had.

So now, you blow it up and start all over again trying to try to find the right pieces.

Isn't that what people wanted Walsh to do? Take risks? I for one was tired of sticking with the status quo and wanted to see us do some things out of the ordinary. But alas, with risk comes the possibility of things blowing up in your face. Bender and Artest are great examples.

Donnie/Bird are on a pretty negative streak right now, but it isn't all bad. People who hate Walsh/Bird seem to be impressed with our last 2 first round draft picks of Harrison and Granger. Most folks are disheartened with the pickup of Saras. Interestingly enough that shouldn't have been a risk based on his history, but yet it has definitely gone poorly.

I am on Donnie and Larry to make some changes as I am not happy right now as a Pacer fan. I just choose to acknowledge that for every Artest wacko that kills your team, you get a Rasheed who wins you a championship. Not all of this is programmable in a calculator but rather requires a little trial and error.

I just grow tired of the yearly Walsh sucks and that is why we'll never win a championship. He doesn't suck and no matter how badly you like him, he is at least in the very good category. I just find it odd that most people are ready to ship out our very good GM in pursuit of a diamond vs. shipping out a malcontent PG. Great GM's don't grow on trees and part of putting together a team requires some good fortune.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 10:52 PM
You go too far in making it sound like Dumars was making can't-miss decisions. He got lucky. He's intelligent, he knows what he's doing, but he was lucky Rasheed not only didn't wreck the team, but ended up being the PERFECT fit.

1. That's like saying DOnnie was lucky that Reggie turned out to be better than Steve Alford. Rasheed is not and never was a franchise cancer. He does most of the same things here that he does in Portland. It's not as if he became a changed man once he got here. Sheed's always been about winning first. Of all his antics in Portland, not one teamate has ever accused him of being a bad teamate.

2. Luck favors the prepared man. Joe was the only GM in the NBA who still had his assets saved at the trading deadline. Isiah could easily have had Sheed, but he blew his picks/expiring contracts on marbury. Instead of making a quick move with his 2 1st rounders and expiring deals, Joe waited it out and in the end, he had Atlanta by the balls, because he was their only potential trading partner left.

Obviously, a scenario like that comes along maybe once every 5 years, so Joe was fortunate that things fell that way in a year when he could take advantage. However, the fact remains he put himself in a position to be "lucky." 29 other GMs didn't.

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 11:09 PM
Bball, DW went for a title when he decided to build the team around J.O and Artest. it didn't work out, but he went for a title

Peck
04-11-2006, 11:18 PM
1985.

Donnie has ran this franchise since 1985.

Do you understand how damn long that is? A lot of members of this board were not even born in 1985.

The problem when talking about Donnie to anybody is that all they want to do is reflect on the good ole times of the last 10 years, while not even wanting to talk about any of the bad times of the last few years which admittadly have been few.

It took 10 years & hiring his best friend to coach the team before Donnie won his first playoff series.

Do you think any other org. in the NBA would keep the same management on for 10 years without advancing in the playoffs? Not even once?

You see when I talk about his "Ross Perot" chart lecture in explaining why we couldn't get Charles Barkley but we could afford to pay Rik Smits (who btw had been replaced by Greg Drieling in the starting lineup) very similar money to what Chuck was making it means nothing to you guys. Some of you might have been 5 years old then.

None of you will ever understand how his firing coach's year after year after year & not changing players weighs on you, because you weren't around.

You will never understand why I have always said that he was never held to the same standard he held Bob Hill to when he fired him.

Does Donnie deserve all of the credit for the 90's Pacers? Yes.

But he also deserves all of the blame for never going beyond that level of success either.

That is the truth about what is being said. Bball is right because when you are dealing with an old line Walsh apologist (Sorry Bill I couldn't resist bringing that one back) all they will ever talk about is the sad state of the team when he took over. When you are dealing with a younger fan all they know is the glory of the late 90's team & the potential of the last 6 years. But people also fail to remember that the 97/98 team blew & that from 00 to 04 we were just a middle of the road first round exit team & what is our record over the past two years. It's not that great I assure you.

When Donnie does leave he will leave as the best G.M. in Pacers history, however I will always be there to remind everyone that this isn't St. Donnie by any since of the words.

He had/has flaws, just like any human & I will go to my grave knowing that he would not have made it past 5 years in N.Y., Philly, Det, etc, etc. Only in Indiana where the media is soft as a bunny & in the beginning the fan base was apathetic could he have survived the first few years.

Go back & look at his history of trades & then realize that the guy has been in charge since 1985. You will be stunned as to how few trades the guy has made.

This is not meant to be a bash at Walsh btw, it's just an attempt to put some context into this for those who may not remember the good old days of the 80's.

Anthem
04-11-2006, 11:37 PM
1. That's like saying DOnnie was lucky that Reggie turned out to be better than Steve Alford. Rasheed is not and never was a franchise cancer. He does most of the same things here that he does in Portland. It's not as if he became a changed man once he got here. Sheed's always been about winning first. Of all his antics in Portland, not one teamate has ever accused him of being a bad teamate.
Except for, you know, the guy he HIT IN THE FREAKING HEAD WITH A BASKETBALL.

Plus, you know, the greatest center of the past 30 years, who he hit in the face with a towel...

Look, we get it. You've got man-love for Sheed. I respect that. But enough already with this "not a bad teammate" crap. He's a good teammate in Detroit, but that doesn't mean he always was in Portland. Detroit (and Larry Brown) gave him a much-needed clean slate. But a clean slate was needed, because his old slate was pretty wretched.

What Sheed proves is that all is forgiven when you win.

Jermaniac
04-11-2006, 11:41 PM
Sabonis the greatest center of the past 30 years? Are you freaking kidding.

Kstat
04-11-2006, 11:45 PM
Except for, you know, the guy he HIT IN THE FREAKING HEAD WITH A BASKETBALL.

Plus, you know, the greatest center of the past 30 years, who he hit in the face with a towel...

Isiah Thomas once broke his hand punching Laimbeer in the face during practice. Ask Laimbeer if he thinks Zeke was a bad teamate.

Michael Jordan nearly knocked Steve Kerr out during a practice. Ask Steve if he'd take MJ on his team...

If that's all you have to prove that he wasn't a good teamate in Portland, that really isnt much....

Yeah he hasn't done some of the stuff he did in Portland, but is he a different person all of a sudden? Absolutely not.

Sheed is a great teamate on the floor, he practices hard, he communicates well defensively, and he cares about winning more than he does his statline. I'd say all of the above qualifies Sheed as a good teamate.

Being a good teamate does not mean that you are required to be a choirboy. All it means is that you make everyone else around you better on the floor, and make your team a better team. Sheed did that in Portland.

My original point was that Sheed was never a guy that was a bad teamate that ruined franchises. I think that's a very unfair asessment of him as a player.

Indyfan
04-11-2006, 11:46 PM
As I know you're a fan of NBA radio programs, I thought I'd post the segment where they talk Pacers. It's about 20 minutes: starts out Pacers (due to the Kravitz column), a little T-Wolves, then they break down the remaining games of the teams still in the playoff hunt in the east.

Ian Eagle and Mitch Lawrence were the hosts today. Typically it's Ian and Kenny Smith, but they rotate in a few different people when either Ian or Kenny have other stuff going on. It's on M-F from Noon-3 on 123. It's usually pretty entertaining. Highly recommended for anyone with Sirius.

http://prometheus.able-towers.com/~magicrat/fcp41106.mp3 (http://prometheus.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/fcp41106.mp3)
thanks, I'll listen to it tomorrow. Too late now.

ChicagoJ
04-12-2006, 12:04 AM
Sabonis the greatest center of the past 30 years? Are you freaking kidding.

a) yes.

b) Bird is an idiot.

Jermaniac
04-12-2006, 12:05 AM
Jermaine for Troy Murphy Baby.

sweabs
04-12-2006, 12:14 AM
Sabonis the greatest center of the past 30 years? Are you freaking kidding.

Yes. Did you ever see him play overseas? Because if you're just basing things on his NBA career, you haven't seen nothing yet.

Jermaniac
04-12-2006, 12:17 AM
Yeah Sarunas was pretty good overseas too wasnt he, that worked out for him over here very nice.

Arcadian
04-12-2006, 12:20 AM
All I'm coming away from this thread is that Bird is an idiot. :whoknows:

I haven't live in Indiana since 1992 and after living in Chicago during a three peat and moving to a city with two (OK one and half teams for most of the time I've been here) I've been a Pacer fan and for that I think Donnie deserves a portion of the credit. Sure the hardwood always looks shinnier on the other side of the court but what Pacer fans have gotten from Donnie has been pretty good.

brichard
04-12-2006, 12:27 AM
1985.

Donnie has ran this franchise since 1985.

Do you understand how damn long that is? A lot of members of this board were not even born in 1985.

The problem when talking about Donnie to anybody is that all they want to do is reflect on the good ole times of the last 10 years, while not even wanting to talk about any of the bad times of the last few years which admittadly have been few.

It took 10 years & hiring his best friend to coach the team before Donnie won his first playoff series.

This is the number one double standard you have with Donnie that drives me crazy. :banghead: What context does it matter that Donnie hired a "friend." He hired Larry Brown b/c Larry Brown is one of the best coaches in the NBA. Did LA hire him or Detroit b/c he was a friend? If you want to judge Donnie by his faults... fine. But if you want to judge him by his achievements... then that is fine too. But for you to arbitrarily pooh pooh the greatest coaching hire in the history of thisr franchise, well it just makes no logical sense. I don't care if Larry is his half-brother, he gets credit for the hire and the good accomplished from it. By the same token he is also accountable for Versace and Isiah. Although, maybe I should give him a pass b/c they weren't friends. :banghead:


Do you think any other org. in the NBA would keep the same management on for 10 years without advancing in the playoffs? Not even once?

Season W L %
2004-05 44 38 .537
2003-04 61 21 .744
2002-03 48 34 .585
2001-02 42 40 .512
2000-01 41 41 .500
1999-00 56 26 .683
1998-99 33 17 .660
1997-98 58 24 .707
1996-97 39 43 .476
1995-96 52 30 .634
1994-95 52 30 .634
1993-94 47 35 .573
1992-93 41 41 .500
1991-92 40 42 .488
1990-91 41 41 .500
1989-90 42 40 .512
1988-89 28 54 .341
1987-88 38 44 .463
1986-87 41 41 .500
1985-86 26 56 .317
1984-85 22 60 .268
1983-84 26 56 .317
1982-83 20 62 .244
1981-82 35 47 .427
1980-81 44 38 .537
1979-80 37 45 .451
1978-79 38 44 .463
1977-78 31 51 .378
1976-77 36 46 .439

Well considering we had sucked for 10 years prior and Walsh did actually make the playoffs... yes. How long did Wooden coach before getting his first championship at UCLA? Answer- 15 years


You see when I talk about his "Ross Perot" chart lecture in explaining why we couldn't get Charles Barkley but we could afford to pay Rik Smits (who btw had been replaced by Greg Drieling in the starting lineup) very similar money to what Chuck was making it means nothing to you guys. Some of you might have been 5 years old then.

Big guys have been and probably always will be overpaid. It is the market value of players in the league.


None of you will ever understand how his firing coach's year after year after year & not changing players weighs on you, because you weren't around.

Never changed players? Isn't never a wee bit harsh? I've followed pretty closely since the Person years and we have changed players, often adding through the draft. (See Smits, Dale Davis, Reggie Miller)


You will never understand why I have always said that he was never held to the same standard he held Bob Hill to when he fired him.

Coaches become victims of their own success. It isn't fair, but it happens in all sports. I always think of poor Bill Mallory at IU. Do you think they miss going to the boring bowls like the "Independence Bowl" now?


Does Donnie deserve all of the credit for the 90's Pacers? Yes.
But he also deserves all of the blame for never going beyond that level of success either.

I agree


That is the truth about what is being said. Bball is right because when you are dealing with an old line Walsh apologist (Sorry Bill I couldn't resist bringing that one back) all they will ever talk about is the sad state of the team when he took over. When you are dealing with a younger fan all they know is the glory of the late 90's team & the potential of the last 6 years. But people also fail to remember that the 97/98 team blew & that from 00 to 04 we were just a middle of the road first round exit team & what is our record over the past two years. It's not that great I assure you.

But you act as if there are teams that are perenially championship winners. And this is what I just don't get. You have good times and you have bad times and some in between. Why is that so hard to fathom no matter who the GM is?


When Donnie does leave he will leave as the best G.M. in Pacers history, however I will always be there to remind everyone that this isn't St. Donnie by any since of the words.

Agreed. And much like with Reggie Miller I fear you will not truely appreciate him until he is gone. And then I will see the Donnie is Superstar posts. :cool:


He had/has flaws, just like any human & I will go to my grave knowing that he would not have made it past 5 years in N.Y., Philly, Det, etc, etc. Only in Indiana where the media is soft as a bunny & in the beginning the fan base was apathetic could he have survived the first few years.

And what does this matter really? When is the last time NY, or Philly won a championship? Is San Antonio a tough media market... yet they have won championships? I guess what I am saying is... so what? You mention this often, but where are you going with this? :confused:


Go back & look at his history of trades & then realize that the guy has been in charge since 1985. You will be stunned as to how few trades the guy has made.This is not meant to be a bash at Walsh btw, it's just an attempt to put some context into this for those who may not remember the good old days of the 80's.

Well how do you rate a GM, by the number of trades? Playoff appearances? Championships? The Clips make trades all the time don't they? Are they a successful franchise?

If/Until Donnie ever wins a championship he will have fallen short of my expectations. But I do feel like he puts us in a position to get there. Maybe it took him 10 years to do this, but he at least has learned how to put an ECF team together twice in the last 10 years. But to expect him to contend for a championship every year, which is what I think the Walsh anarchists aspire to, is just a bit high a standard for any GM.

brichard
04-12-2006, 12:38 AM
Being a good teamate does not mean that you are required to be a choirboy. All it means is that you make everyone else around you better on the floor, and make your team a better team. Sheed did that in Portland. My original point was that Sheed was never a guy that was a bad teamate that ruined franchises. I think that's a very unfair asessment of him as a player.

Well Kstat, you have the benefit of hindsight with you. The Portland teams I remember with Sheed were laden with talent. Sheed is a great player, but he is also a head case. It has been proven on more than one occassion (Mad Max, Rodman, Sheed) that you can win with such a player, but it doesn't make them any less wacky.

Artest at times in his career has been an extremely unselfish player, but he is still a wacky dude.

Let me ask you a question. If Sheed had been hit with a beer at Conseco before the brawl, what does he do? Does he stand and scream and pout, or does he take off in the stands? None of us will ever know, but I could see him potentially doing it. If he does that in his first year in Detroit he would have been labled a headcase, been a bad team mate, and the guy who ruined your year. Dumars would be labled a bad hire and too risk happy.

I'm just trying to point out that some of the success with a guy like Sheed is circumstances. But just by being so volatile, when that creeps up on him, it makes him a poor team mate at times. And I don't remember the articles in Portland mentioning him as the "glue that holds everything together."

He obviously isn't in the same league as Artest, but only time has proven that. He very well could have went the other way.

bulletproof
04-12-2006, 03:09 AM
When Donnie does leave he will leave as the best G.M. in Pacers history, however I will always be there to remind everyone that this isn't St. Donnie by any since of the words.

I can think of a couple of children he didn't know who would have died without the surgeries he paid for who would disagree with you.

bulletproof
04-12-2006, 03:13 AM
What Sheed proves is that all is forgiven when you win.

:ding:

RWB
04-12-2006, 08:24 AM
This is the number one double standard you have with Donnie that drives me crazy. :banghead: What context does it matter that Donnie hired a "friend." He hired Larry Brown b/c Larry Brown is one of the best coaches in the NBA. Did LA hire him or Detroit b/c he was a friend? If you want to judge Donnie by his faults... fine. But if you want to judge him by his achievements... then that is fine too. But for you to arbitrarily pooh pooh the greatest coaching hire in the history of thisr franchise, well it just makes no logical sense. I don't care if Larry is his half-brother, he gets credit for the hire and the good accomplished from it. By the same token he is also accountable for Versace and Isiah. Although, maybe I should give him a pass b/c they weren't friends. :banghead:



Along those same lines, wasn't it Donnie who brought in another legendary coach in Dr. Jack Ramsay to get the Pacers into the playoffs.

P.S. Yes I know this was the Rifleman's first year as well.

Putnam
04-12-2006, 09:10 AM
If Alfred J. Prufock was coaching the Pistons, don't you think they would still win?



It's J. Alfred Prufrock, not Alfred J.

Otherwise, you make a lot of good points.

Fool
04-12-2006, 09:14 AM
Every Pacer trade since Donnie Walsh was hired (according to PB Trans Archive)

06/01/86 Pacers Donnie Walsh hired as GM (date approximate)


09/18/86 Pacers Kyle Macy 1988 second round pick (#37-Greg Butler), 1990 or 1992 second round pick (?-?) trade with Bulls
10/02/86 Pacers John Long, second round pick (1993 #51-Spencer Dunkley) Russ Schoene, Terence Stansbury trade with Sonics
06/21/87 Pacers Scott Skiles second round pick (1989 #34-Gary Leonard) trade with Bucks (date 6/22 per Pacers media guide)
10/04/88 Pacers rights to Everette Stephens Ron Anderson trade with Knicks (date 10/3 per Pacers media guide)
02/20/89 Pacers LaSalle Thompson, Randy Wittman Waymon Tisdale, 1990 second round pick (?-?) -AND/OR- 1991 second round pick (?-?) (one pick per Pacers media guide, 90 OR 91 pick per Kings media guide) trade with Kings
02/21/89 Pacers Detlef Schrempf, 1990 or 1991 second round pick (1990 #45-Antonio Davis) Herb Williams trade with Mavericks
06/27/89 Pacers rights to Dyron Nix rights to Stuart Gray (not rights per Pacers media guide) trade with Hornets
09/08/92 Pacers Sam Mitchell, Jerome `Pooh` Richardson Chuck Person, Micheal Williams trade with Timberwolves
10/11/93 Pacers 1994 second round pick (#41-William Njoku) Sean Green trade with 76ers
11/01/93 Pacers Derrick McKey, Gerald Paddio Detlef Schrempf trade with Sonics
06/30/94 Pacers Mark Jackson, rights to Greg Minor Jerome `Pooh` Richardson, Malik Sealy, rights to Eric Piatkowski trade with Clippers
06/13/96 Pacers Jalen Rose, Reggie Williams, 1996 first round pick (#10-Erick Dampier) Mark Jackson, Ricky Pierce, 1996 first round pick (#23-Efthimis Retzias) trade with Nuggets
11/04/96 Pacers Vincent Askew Reggie Williams trade with Nets
02/20/97 Pacers Darvin Ham Jerome Allen trade with Nuggets
02/20/97 Pacers Mark Jackson, LaSalle Thompson Vincent Askew, Eddie A. Johnson, 1997 second round pick (#41-Jason Lawson), 1998 second round pick (#54-Tremaine Fowlkes) trade with Nuggets
08/12/97 Pacers Chris Mullin Erick Dampier, Duane Ferrell trade with Warriors
06/30/99 Pacers rights to Jeff Foster rights to Vonteego Cummings, first round pick (lottery protected) (2001 #14-Troy Murphy) trade with Warriors
08/01/99 Pacers rights to Jonathan Bender Antonio Davis trade with Raptors (date 6/30 per Stats, 8/5 per Pacers media guide)
08/31/00 Pacers Jermaine O'Neal, Joe Kleine Dale Davis trade with Blazers
06/27/01 Pacers rights to Jamaal Tinsley 2003 first round pick (#21-Boris Diaw) trade with Hawks (date 7/19 per Pacers media guide)
02/19/02 Pacers Ron Artest, Brad Miller, Ron Mercer, Kevin Ollie Jalen Rose, Travis Best, Norm Richardson, conditional second round pick (2002 #43-Lonny Baxter) trade with Bulls

07/11/03 Pacers Larry Bird hired as president of basketball operations trade

07/24/03 Pacers Scot Pollard, Danny Ferry Brad Miller, Ron Mercer 3-team trade wtih Kings & Spurs
07/15/04 Pacers Stephen Jackson Al Harrington trade with Hawks
08/25/05 Pacers 2008 second round pick (?-?) James Jones trade with Suns
01/25/06 Pacers Predrag `Peja` Stojakovic Ron Artest trade with Kings


Just for comparison, Dumars was hired as VP of player personnel in 99 as has made 23 trades since

naptownmenace
04-12-2006, 09:26 AM
I don't recall Bird every being more clear on a management issue than he was in that article. He not only said Rick would be staying, he went into detail about why the players would not be getting any support from him against Rick.

He pretty much tossed most of the players under the bus.


:nod:

There are only 3 or 4 coaches in the NBA that are probably better than Rick Carlisle and none of those coaches are going to be available to coach this team next year so why axe the coach?

OTOH, there are several players better than every single player on the team - in fact there are 10x as many great players than great coaches in the NBA. I'm with Bird on this one (although he and DW are partly to blame for not doing more to fix the roster before the trade deadline). The problem is the players and Rick's not going anywhere unless he quits and I don't see that happening.

BillS
04-12-2006, 09:33 AM
So many posts, so little time...


Seems as tho rather than think of the TEAM everybody wants to go ISO and blame their favorite whipping boy and love their own personal favorite. We should be looking to fix this disaster and stop trying to fix blame.

If everyone would just stop standing around while one forum member blames his man, and we had some real off-the-blame movement, who knows what could happen?

I blame Hicks and able, their coaching style obviously leads to these kinds of predictable posts.


Isn't that what people wanted Walsh to do? Take risks? I for one was tired of sticking with the status quo and wanted to see us do some things out of the ordinary. But alas, with risk comes the possibility of things blowing up in your face. Bender and Artest are great examples.

:worship:


Bball is right because when you are dealing with an old line Walsh apologist (Sorry Bill I couldn't resist bringing that one back) all they will ever talk about is the sad state of the team when he took over.

Them's FIGHTIN' words! We also talk about the consistency of the franchise since he took over. But, since you mention it, boy did we suck before Donnie came in...


He had/has flaws, just like any human & I will go to my grave knowing that he would not have made it past 5 years in N.Y., Philly, Det, etc, etc. Only in Indiana where the media is soft as a bunny & in the beginning the fan base was apathetic could he have survived the first few years.

Checketts has been president of the Knicks since 91, and the Kicks couldn't win a championship even with Patrick Ewing. Layden is "credited" with screwing things up, but many people still ultimately blame Checketts. For all the screaming in the NY media, arguably the harshest in the world, Checketts is still there (though Isiah is now in charge of Basketball Operations - sound familiar?), the franchise still hasn't won another championship, and they are on track to have a worse record this year than the Pacers ever had under Donnie.

Yeah, nasty media changes team management where it counts.

Putnam
04-12-2006, 09:37 AM
I am on Donnie and Larry to make some changes as I am not happy right now as a Pacer fan.

I just grow tired of the yearly Walsh sucks and that is why we'll never win a championship. He doesn't suck and no matter how badly you like him, he is at least in the very good category.




This is right. Year in and year out, the Pacers have been competitive and classy. The brawl tainted that, but maybe the franchise can recover its prestige. (I've wondered whether Walsh oughtn't to deliberately trade ALL the brawl participants -- O'Neal, Jackson, Johnson and Harrison -- just to send the message that the Indiana Pacers are no longer associated with that regrettable incident).

But I gotta say, I grow tired of being a classy, respected also-ran. I grow tired of "going deep into the playoffs" but never winning a championship. Unless Donnie Walsh brings Indianapolis an NBA Championship, he must be judged a failure. And if he's ultimately going to be a failure, why should I support him now?

RWB
04-12-2006, 09:52 AM
Unless Donnie Walsh brings Indianapolis an NBA Championship, he must be judged a failure. And if he's ultimately going to be a failure, why should I support him now?

I understand where you're coming from as a bottom line stance, but since there is only one champion a year all other GMs and players for that matter are considered failures by using that criteria.

Doug in CO
04-12-2006, 10:03 AM
Crazed this morning Hicks - so can't really get into who I would consider other model franchises. Dumars has made 23 trades but so has Isiah (I assume).

We always seem one move short - we could have gotten Sheed, blocked Detroit, and perhaps had a chapionship.

But we stood pat.

It is always about not taking the one move.

And bulletproof - we know you have strong personal feelings about DW - no one is saying he is a bad man - quite the contrary - I am sure he is a great man and he represents Indianapolis well. We are not making personal attacks. We are saying we wish that management would do things just a little... just a little differently is all. You take this entirely too personally - please try not to. We are just fans who want this move, that move, or in this case... Carlisle fired.

Hicks
04-12-2006, 10:30 AM
Doug/OH, it's funny. Now that I think about it, we probably would have won the title if we'd snagged Wallace instead of Detroit. The Pistons were weaker than us before the trade; this would have made US stronger with them staying the same. But the damning part?

I've seen it discussed both on PD and at the forum parties, that even if we got a better player than JO in here, who was a leader, that JO might not be willing to step back and follow him. But I'm positive he would have let Rasheed become the vocal leader here as I view him to be in Detroit (he gave them their attitude, their swagger). Rasheed was Jermaine's mentor in Portland. I'm positive JO would have followed him.

Sucks to think about it.

ChicagoJ
04-12-2006, 11:00 AM
idiot >> Bird.

MagicRat
04-12-2006, 11:03 AM
"They didn't complain when we were winning 61 games,'' Bird said. "I didn't hear anything when we were winning 44 games."

Maybe I just have better hearing, but I'm pretty sure I remember complaints about the offense during those seasons........:whoknows:

bulletproof
04-12-2006, 11:35 AM
Doug/OH, it's funny. Now that I think about it, we probably would have won the title if we'd snagged Wallace instead of Detroit. The Pistons were weaker than us before the trade; this would have made US stronger with them staying the same. But the damning part?

I've seen it discussed both on PD and at the forum parties, that even if we got a better player than JO in here, who was a leader, that JO might not be willing to step back and follow him. But I'm positive he would have let Rasheed become the vocal leader here as I view him to be in Detroit (he gave them their attitude, their swagger). Rasheed was Jermaine's mentor in Portland. I'm positive JO would have followed him.

Sucks to think about it.

Would we even have had a legitimate shot at getting Rasheed? Who would we have traded from that team that was on its way to 61 wins and the ECFs? If we would have come up short of a title, people would be asking for someone's head for tinkering with a team that was burning its way through the schedule. It's real easy in hindsight to say, we should've... Also, our frontcourt wasn't our most pressing need. We could have used some help there, but we had no shooters to stretch the floor, other than Reggie and he was deferral mode. I keep going back to game 4 when Cro was knocking them down and drawing the Wallaces out of the paint, allowing Al and JO to pound away on the inside. Our frontcourt was very effective in that game because of our outside shooting.

Los Angeles
04-12-2006, 11:44 AM
*08/31/00 Pacers Jermaine O'Neal, Joe Kleine Dale Davis trade with Blazers

*06/27/01 Pacers rights to Jamaal Tinsley 2003 first round pick (#21-Boris Diaw) trade with Hawks (date 7/19 per Pacers media guide)

*02/19/02 Pacers Ron Artest, Brad Miller, Ron Mercer, Kevin Ollie Jalen Rose, Travis Best, Norm Richardson, conditional second round pick (2002 #43-Lonny Baxter) trade with Bulls

07/11/03 Pacers Larry Bird hired as president of basketball operations trade

*07/24/03 Pacers Scot Pollard, Danny Ferry Brad Miller, Ron Mercer 3-team trade wtih Kings & Spurs

*07/15/04 Pacers Stephen Jackson Al Harrington trade with Hawks

*08/25/05 Pacers 2008 second round pick (?-?) James Jones trade with Suns

*01/25/06 Pacers Predrag `Peja` Stojakovic Ron Artest trade with Kings

Just for comparison, Dumars was hired as VP of player personnel in 99 as has made 23 trades since
I've bolded the all stars involoved with all trades since 2000. This doesn't include Rose, or the Harrington/Jackson trade, which could also be considered "blue chip".

But according to some reports we don't take risks or go to the "next level". But there it is: Miller for Pollard, Rose for Artest/Miller, Artest for an expiring Peja, Davis for O'Neal. How many all stars need to come and go from the team before anyone will admit that the Pacers management takes risks and makes moves?

RWB
04-12-2006, 11:45 AM
Also, our frontcourt wasn't our most pressing need. We could have used some help there, but we had no shooters to stretch the floor, other than Reggie and he was deferral mode. I keep going back to game 4 when Cro was knocking them down and drawing the Wallaces out of the paint, allowing Al and JO to pound away on the inside. Our frontcourt was very effective in that game because of our outside shooting.

Excellent point BP and the reason I along with a few other posters feel it is imperative we re-sign Peja. I understand not wanting to curb Danny's progress, but there are no other consistent shooters on this team.

btowncolt
04-12-2006, 11:52 AM
Would we even have had a legitimate shot at getting Rasheed? Who would we have traded from that team that was on its way to 61 wins and the ECFs? If we would have come up short of a title, people would be asking for someone's head for tinkering with a team that was burning its way through the schedule. It's real easy in hindsight to say, we should've... Also, our frontcourt wasn't our most pressing need. We could have used some help there, but we had no shooters to stretch the floor, other than Reggie and he was deferral mode. I keep going back to game 4 when Cro was knocking them down and drawing the Wallaces out of the paint, allowing Al and JO to pound away on the inside. Our frontcourt was very effective in that game because of our outside shooting.

We also lacked 18 million in expiring contracts, but that's a minor detail I guess.

Doug in CO
04-12-2006, 12:12 PM
Bulletproof - people like myself were complaining about us not going after Sheed at the time - this is not a second guess, it was a first guess.

Could someone dig up what that trade was - if I recall Detroit basically used Boston as their patsies in getting this deal done

Fool
04-12-2006, 12:35 PM
02/19/04
Pistons got Rasheed Wallace, Mike James
Pistons gave up Bob Sura, Zeljko Rebraca, Lindsey Hunter, Chucky Atkins, Bucks 2004 first round pick (#17-Josh Smith), 2004 first round pick (#25-Tony Allen), $3 million cash

Celtics got Lindsey Hunter, Chucky Atkins, Pistons 2004 first round pick (#25-Tony Allen), $3 million cash
Celtics gave up Chris Mills, Mike James

Hawks got Bob Sura, Chris Mills, Zeljko Rebraca, Bucks 2004 first round pick (lottery protected) (#17-Josh Smith)
Hawks gave up Rasheed Wallace

Suaveness
04-12-2006, 12:58 PM
idiot >> Bird.

Out of curiousity, what do you think of Bird? I wasn't sure that your message was coming across clear in this thread...

ChicagoJ
04-12-2006, 01:02 PM
Bulletproof - people like myself were complaining about us not going after Sheed at the time - this is not a second guess, it was a first guess.

Could someone dig up what that trade was - if I recall Detroit basically used Boston as their patsies in getting this deal done

it doesn't get any better than this thread, a PD classic thanks to our favorite uncle, Buck:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900

ChicagoJ
04-12-2006, 01:16 PM
Out of curiousity, what do you think of Bird? I wasn't sure that your message was coming across clear in this thread...

Yeah, they tell me at work that I'm too "subtle" in my communication style.

So I'm taking the "more direct" Jay for a test ride. Lucky you.

:D

Slick Pinkham
04-12-2006, 01:25 PM
I'm pretty sure that Larry Bird is some where between

"basketball Jesus" (Bill Simmons)
and
"worse than an idiot" (Jay)

I think he's much brighter than he SOUNDS. Of course most of the people you pull out of any random trailer park in southern Indiana SOUND brighter than Larry.

Hicks
04-12-2006, 02:15 PM
Would we even have had a legitimate shot at getting Rasheed? Who would we have traded from that team that was on its way to 61 wins and the ECFs? If we would have come up short of a title, people would be asking for someone's head for tinkering with a team that was burning its way through the schedule. It's real easy in hindsight to say, we should've... Also, our frontcourt wasn't our most pressing need. We could have used some help there, but we had no shooters to stretch the floor, other than Reggie and he was deferral mode. I keep going back to game 4 when Cro was knocking them down and drawing the Wallaces out of the paint, allowing Al and JO to pound away on the inside. Our frontcourt was very effective in that game because of our outside shooting.

Yeah, which is why Rasheed would have been so great because in addition to giving us a swagger, a great post defender, and another shot blocker, he would have given us what Cro did in Game 4 offensively, only with more consistency, and the option of a post-game to go with it.

Not to mention, having an actual big, threat player at center would have made the other team's defense not be able to zone in on the other 4 players, which, in addition to helping JO, would also make life easier for the backcourt as well. Not to mention they wouldn't even NEED to produce as much since Rasheed would be scoring around 15ppg. He's also a good passer.

Hicks
04-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Yeah, they tell me at work that I'm too "subtle" in my communication style.

So I'm taking the "more direct" Jay for a test ride. Lucky you.

:D

All I ask from the King of the "Bird is an idiot" crowd, I'd like to see you (and not just you; anyone pissing and moaning about Bird's choice) to own up if or when you're all proven wrong in the next 1-3 years. I'm not saying it will happen, but obviously I'm more of a believer than you, given your stance right now.

ChicagoJ
04-12-2006, 02:41 PM
I've eaten crow before.

I'd love for Bird to prove me wrong. But I suspect he'll be working in the Celtics' front office before the Pacers win a title.

Just my :twocents:

Fool
04-12-2006, 02:43 PM
On that note. Rivers is appearantly out of Boston after the season which puts Ainge on shaky ground seeing as he's backed him pretty heavily.

Unclebuck
04-12-2006, 02:45 PM
it doesn't get any better than this thread, a PD classic thanks to our favorite uncle, Buck:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=900



Those were the days, back when Jay and I agreed on things and so many of you actually thought the Pacers had a chance to win it all.

Slick Pinkham
04-12-2006, 02:54 PM
Those were the days, back when Jay and I agreed on things and so many of you actually thought the Pacers had a chance to win it all.

I dread the day when someone bumps up the "preseason prediction" thread, where everyone predicted the number of wins for the Pacers this season.

:shudder:

:shudder:

btowncolt
04-12-2006, 02:56 PM
I dread the day when someone bumps up the "preseason prediction" thread, where everyone predicted the number of wins for the Pacers this season.

:shudder:

:shudder:

I did that like a week ago and everyone ignored it.

indygeezer
04-12-2006, 04:50 PM
That would have put Sheed and Artest on the same team then.


You think Jax and JO have trouble carping at refs NOW :-o .

sweabs
04-12-2006, 05:03 PM
That would have put Sheed and Artest on the same team then.


You think Jax and JO have trouble carping at refs NOW :-o .

In terms of complaining to the officials, I think the duo of JO & Jax outweighs the duo of Rasheed & Artest. Artest rarely complains.

indygeezer
04-12-2006, 05:07 PM
Think of Sheed's rep coming from Portland and couple that with Ron's rep....think of the flagrant fouls and how the entire team would have been under a microscope right from the git-go. Think of Sheed's apparent influence on JO and how JO had to be de-programmed once he got here.
Think....no don't my head hurts.

Kegboy
04-12-2006, 05:30 PM
I'm pretty sure that Larry Bird is some where between

"basketball Jesus" (Bill Simmons)
and
"worse than an idiot" (Jay)

I think he's much brighter than he SOUNDS. Of course most of the people you pull out of any random trailer park in southern Indiana SOUND brighter than Larry.

Yes, saying he's brighter than he sounds isn't saying much. Larry Joe makes Forrest Gump sound like Christopher Hitchens.

pacerwaala
04-12-2006, 07:44 PM
idiot >> Bird.


Are you serious? You have pretty good insight on most basketball issues, this is just not one. Are you saying he is an idiot because he is siding with Rick or because he came out and said it.

Also, from the article, Bird is intent on trading anybody and everybody on the team - that is something you agree with? So, I am just curious (I have been on PD for long but your post piqued my interest) - what is it that makes you think that Bird is an idiot

To me, Larry is one candid GM or President (whatever his title is) who does not sugarcoat anything. He might not win a championship in Indiana but I am confident that he will assemble teams that will play hard every year and go deep into the playoffs. Don't you think the Pacers have done well under him considering all the injuries, brawl, Artest situation, etc.

Anthem
04-12-2006, 08:15 PM
I did that like a week ago and everyone ignored it.
I'm not supposed to tell you, but they all have you on ignore.

Fool
04-12-2006, 08:23 PM
Anthem, you know you're not supposed to quote any of Btown's posts.

btowncolt
04-12-2006, 08:28 PM
Anthem, you know you're not supposed to quote any of Btown's posts.

HE BROKE THE 4TH LAW!